From watching him pitch, which very few of us got to do this spring, the Jays have decided that he's not their man this year. Arguing "but he was good in the past" is really not a sensible or defensible position.

Extreme example:

Let's say Mister A is a great pitcher. He's involved in an unfortunate accident and loses his arm. Should Mister A's baseball team keep him on the roster because he was good in the past and because they've already paid for him?

Either way this doesn't look good on JP's resume.

Okay, so they should give him a shot during the regular season or they should have cut him on the first day of Spring Training, but not checked him out during all of Spring Training to see if he'd improve?

That's probably the silliest thing I've heard all month.

I'm not inclined to take the pleadge on the grounds that I would have kept Ligtenberg and sent League to AAA. Mainly because I want League at AAA finding out if he can develop into a starter.

But on the other hand, it's just not a big enough deal to complain about, even if Ligtenberg finds a way to be effective somewhere else.

More bad news re: Lilly...

Atleast it's not his arm

Yeah and it now adds up to alot less now the payroll has been increased. Let's assume for a second that the Jays are correct in their assessment and that Ligtenberg and Koch would not help the team this year. You either keep them on the roster (that's two bullpen spots), and use them in games and they probably blow at least a couple of games each for the team, before eventually dumping them anyway OR you cut your losses now. Sicne their salary is going to be paid no matter what you do, I prefer to cut my losses and give a shot to a guy I think will be better like Chulk for instance.

As for Gross being blocked by Hillenbrand, how do you block a guy who is already on the team? That's a new one. Ive said all along that Gross will get his at bats because injuries will happen, it's inevitable. You cant plan the season with a lineup of 9 guys because invariably one or more of them are not going to be around all year. Lilly is currently on the DL which puts Gross on the team, when Lilly comes back (or possibly before) someone else is going to get hurt and Gross will be back again.

No. I always thought he would have a good second year. I hate this move. Hate it. I will admit to being wrong if he has another horrible year, but if he signs with some team and has an ERA of 2.59 like I know he will, I will complain all I goddamn want.

I'm glad Gross will get a shot though. He basically has until Lilly returns to prove himself, which I'm fine with.

That money was down the toilet whether they were cut or whether they weren't. The only question worth asking at this point (IMHO) is whether Ligtenberg makes the team better than Chulk. You would prefer they keep the worse player on the roster just because they're paying him anyway?

The response to this point is on the official site. Lightenberg said he's basically known for a couple of weeks that he wouldn't make the team, but that JP has been trying to work a trade to no avail. He added that it was no surprise, and that he felt the team gave him a fair shake this spring in getting him on the mound to show what he could do.

Chulk was just an example, any of those others work just as well. If Walker makes the team better then give me Walker. The problem with giving Ligtenberg a chance to flame out is that you have to actually experience the flaming out first. Or in other words you have to let him cost the team games in the standings before you finally let him go. If the Jays really think he's that bad then Im glad they cut him and didnt give him the chance. Now that doesnt necessarily mean that their assessment is correct, but I am happy that they had the guts to get rid of him if they felt he really wasnt going to be any help.

Hey, hey, hey, no sectarian comments eh. We sailors don't have any time for drinking anymore. We're to busy bringing you all your junk from the 3rd world now. Remember, the stuff that used to be made down the road. Besides all of that was highly overblown.

"I've basically known, more or less, for the last two weeks. It's not really a surprise," Ligtenberg said. "I can't blame them. They have some good arms in the bullpen. It wasn't a shock to me, because they have some guys that can take care of business."

I still don't like the move, but I can see JP's rationale in that he wants to field the best team. I just don't share his opinion of who would make up the best team.

This subject has been debated ad nauseum, but I believe the reasoning goes something like this:

Delgado, based on his performance in 2002-2004 (where he accumulated 107 HR and 356 RBI) would have gotten a very big arbitration award. As much as 14-15 MM.

Since the Jays did not want to commit that kind of money to a single player, they let him walk.

Pointing out that he signed for 13 MM per season in Florida and saying we threw away draft picks by not offering arbitration is also a little disingenous. If teams knew they were surrendering draft picks, they would not have been willing to offer as much. If Delgado was faced with the choice of a multiyear deal for 10 MM per season or a single year award for 15MM, he might have gone the arbitration route. And that was a chance the Jays felt they coulnd't take.

I really don't see what the big deal is here. The Jays suffered through a bad season last year because a whole bunch of players were either hurt or had off seasons. Wells is going to be better. Cat will have a better season. Rios is going to be a whole lot better in his second full season. And Gabe Gross looks like he's developing into a star. As long as Lilly can hold it together, the starting rotation should be ok and, the bullpen is going to be a lot stronger than last year.

I would be surprised if the 2005 edition of the Jays fails to finish about .500.

How much of spring training were you present for? How many games, and how many workouts and practice sessions? Just so we can evaluate the strength of your opinion on this.

King Ryan, I've got a pair of Cheer Club tickets that says Ligtenberg doesn't come within a full run of that. (And if he doesn't pitch for anybody, I win the bet.)

You game?

And that's a BIG part of it right there. They needed a 40-man roster spot for Walker so KL couldn't hang around (on the DL or elsewhere.

Your conclusion is only true in hindsight; it was not at all true by the arbitration deadline. At that point Carlos had few offers and he might well have accepted arbitration, stayed in the city he likes for another year, hoped to stay healthy and earn an even bigger deal next winter. Rogers had not yet bought the stadium and raised the payroll. If Carlos had accepted arbitration JP would have had little or no money to do anything else.

BP made the same argument in favour of offering arbitration, but the logic behind it is misinformed and unfair in this case, especially since Delgado's service time means he would be untradeable again. Many high-contract players (see Maddux, Greg) have accepted arbitration against their club's wishes and it was a risk JP couldn't afford to take back in December.

JP's plan was to spend the money on Koskie and Clement, but the latter wanted to go elsewhere.

I don't think it was a mistake at all.

Delgado could have gotten anywhere from $12 to $22 million or so in arbitration. Why does everyone assume Delgado was going to get a paycut in arbitration? What's the precedent?

The team would have absolutely no idea how much Delgado would get in arbitration. So if you offer him arb, there's the risk he'll take it. Because up to 40% of your payroll could be tied up with him, it eliminates your ability to sign free agents until the matter is settled. So you're punting the entire off-season for the chance for what? A 16th overall draftpick, that on average will turn into the next Dave Berg?

That's just it. There have been none. Nobody knows what Delgado would have gotten in arbitration, because there aren't too many cases to fall back on. The Jays would be taking an absolutely huge gamble by offering Delgado arb.

Given his 2003 near-MVP season and playing well in 2004 despite an injury, there was a decent chance Delgado would have been given a raise by an arbitration board. They're rather unpredictable at the best of times, so there's no way we can say "he would have gotten $X" with any kind of certainty.

Give HollywoodHartman the prize. I don't know the exact number myself, but Abraham Nunez is the correct answer. And he went .214/.297/.319 in 287 at-bats last year.

This is just for interest's sake. I do equate the two players at all, nor am I trying to draw any sort of analogy. It does seem to be interesting to see that his hot spring resulted in 287 terribly unproductive at-bats, when it should have become clear after 100 or 150 or 200 that he wasn't producing.

I left the most important word out of that phrase.

I do NOT equate the two players, at all.