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Despite the fact that Gaylord Perry spent less than 4 years with the Indians, we show that the trade that brought him over from the Giants at the end of the 1971 season was worth an average of 14 extra wins a year to the Indians during the 1970s, and worth 150 extra wins to the franchise from the period 1972 to 1987.

It is often stated that you need at least 5 years to fully evaluate the impact of a baseball trade. However, the impact of a trade can often be felt even decades later. Consider the trade that sent Bill Buckner and Ivan DeJesus to the Cubs in 1977. Buckner and DeJesus were both fine players who contributed to the Cubs on the field. The trade, however, took an even bigger significance in 1981 when DeJesus was traded for Larry Bowa and future Hall-of-Famer Ryne Sandberg. The 1977 trade with the Dodgers is indirectly responsible for Sandberg becoming a Cub, because it's quite likely the Cubs would not have gotten Sandberg without DeJesus.

To evaluate the impact of the trade that sent Sam McDowell to the Giants in exchange for Frank Duffy and Gaylord Perry, we examine how each of the players performed for their new teams. We also consider what later trades were direct descendants from this one and consider how the players acquired in those trades performed for the Giants and the Indians.

THE TRADE IN QUESTION

November 29, 1971: Gaylord Perry and Frank Duffy to the Indians, Sam McDowell to the Giants.

WHAT THE GIANTS GOT FROM THE DEAL

1. SAM McDOWELL

Sudden Sam McDowell was a 29 year old who had already appeared in 6 All-Star games when he was dealt to San Francisco. Unfortunately for the Giants, he didn't have too much left in the tank. McDowell went 10-8 with a 4.33ERA in 25 starts for the San Fran in 1972, for an ERA+ of 81. McDowell started the 1973 season in the bullpen for the Giants before being sold to the Yankees. While with the Giants, McDowell was worth 1.7 wins over a replacement level player, according to the metrics at Baseball Prospectus:

1972 San Francisco - S. McDowell - 1.3 WARP3
1973 San Francisco - S. McDowell - 0.4 WARP3
June 7, 1973: Sam McDowell to the Yankees, an undisclosed amount of cash to the Indians.

GIANTS SUMMARY

After 2 years the Giants had only a handful of cash to show for sending Perry and Duffy to the Indians. Overall the trade gave the Giants 1.7 wins above replacement, which is around what Gaylor Perry provided to the Indians in a good month.

1972 San Francisco - S. McDowell - 1.3 WARP3

1973 San Francisco - S. McDowell - 0.4 WARP3

TOTAL WARP3 1972-1973: 1.7
WHAT THE INDIANS GOT FROM THE DEAL

1. FRANK DUFFY

Firstly, they got a great defensive shortstop by the name of Frank Duffy, who played with the club until the end of the 1977 season. Mark Belanger made sure that Duffy didn't win a gold glove in his time with the Indians, but in his time as a shortstop his fielding percentage was 13 points higher than the average shortstop (.977 to .964) and his range factor 17 points higher (4.45 to 4.28).

Unfortunately for the Indians, Duffy was not much of a hitter. In six years with the Indians he had an on-base percentage of over .300 only once (1973). That did not prevent Duffy from being a valuable contributor to the Indians, as he ended up being worth 18 wins over a replacement level player for the Indians:

1972 Cleveland     - F. Duffy    - 2.8 WARP3
1973 Cleveland     - F. Duffy    - 4.3 WARP3
1974 Cleveland     - F. Duffy    - 2.3 WARP3
1975 Cleveland     - F. Duffy    - 5.3 WARP3
1976 Cleveland     - F. Duffy    - 2.8 WARP3
1977 Cleveland     - F. Duffy    - 0.5 WARP3
The Indians tired of having a shortstop who hit around the Mendoza line, so they sent outfielder Charlie Spikes to the Tigers for shortstop Tom Veryzer. With nowhere to play Duffy, they shopped him over the winter, eventually finding a taker in the Boston Red Sox, who used his great glove to backup the .899 fielding Butch Hobson.

1a. RICK KREUGER

March 24, 1978: Frank Duffy to the Red Sox, Rick Kreuger to the Indians.

Rick Kreuger pitched just over 9 innings for the Indians in 6 games before being sent down to the minors, never to be heard from again.

1978 Cleveland     - R. Kreuger  - 0.1 WARP3
2. GAYLORD PERRY

For the Indians, the 32 year old Perry and not Duffy was the key to the McDowell deal. Perry had already made 2 All-Star appearances before joining the Tribe and showed no signs before the trade that he was slowing down as he pitched in 280 innings in 1971.

During his three-and-a-half years with the Indians, Perry won a Cy Young award (1972), would win 20 games twice (1974), and pitch an eye-popping 1009 innings over only 3 seasons (1972-1974). He would also go on to irritate manager Frank Robinson and start the 1975 season with a 6-9 record, both of which led him to be dealt to Texas. In his time with the Indians, Perry would be worth over 36 wins more than a replacement level pitcher:

1972 Cleveland     - G. Perry   - 13.6 WARP3
1973 Cleveland     - G. Perry   -  9.8 WARP3
1974 Cleveland     - G. Perry   - 10.7 WARP3
1975 Cleveland     - G. Perry   -  2.5 WARP3
June 13, 1975: Gaylord Perry to the Rangers, Jim Bibby, Jackie Brown, and Rick Waits to the Indians.

2a. JIM BIBBY

Pitcher Jim Bibby was to the Indians what Miguel Batista was to the Diamondbacks. In 1976 Bibby made 21 starts, pitched in relief 13 times, and put up an ERA+ of 109. After putting up similar numbers in 1977, Bibby would end up signing with the Pirates as a free agent. While with the Tribe, Jim was worth over 12 wins more than a replacement level player:

1975 Cleveland     - J. Bibby   -  3.2 WARP3
1976 Cleveland     - J. Bibby   -  4.9 WARP3
1977 Cleveland     - J. Bibby   -  4.4 WARP3
2b. JACKIE BROWN

Pitcher Jackie Brown had little success with the Indians, going 9-11 with an ERA+ of 82 in his only full season with the club.

1975 Cleveland     - J. Brown   -  0.6 WARP3
1976 Cleveland     - J. Brown   -  2.0 WARP3
Although he did little on the field for the Indians, he wound up being an incredibly valuable piece of the Perry trade. Brown was sent to the Expos in exchange for a player who would have a lasting impact on the team:

December 10, 1976: Jackie Brown to the Indians, Andre Thornton to the Indians.

2c. ANDRE THORNTON

First baseman/designated hitter Andre Thornton would spend 10 years with the Indians after being traded to the team in 1976, though 3 of those years came after re-signing with the club as a free agent at the end of the 1984 season. While an Indian, Thornton would play in 2 All-Star games, finish in the top 10 in OBP 4 times, in slugging twice, in home runs 4 times, RBIs twice and walks 5 times. One thing Thornton did not do is hit well for average, but when you hit 33 homeruns, drive in 105 runners, and walk 93 times like Thornton did in 1979 nobody is going to complain too loudly when you hit .262.

Thornton would end up being worth almost 42 wins above replacement in his 10 years with the Indians before being released at the end of the 1987 season:

1977 Cleveland     - A. Thornton-  6.6 WARP3
1978 Cleveland     - A. Thornton-  9.2 WARP3
1979 Cleveland     - A. Thornton-  4.1 WARP3
1981 Cleveland     - A. Thornton-  1.2 WARP3
1982 Cleveland     - A. Thornton-  6.6 WARP3
1983 Cleveland     - A. Thornton-  4.7 WARP3
1984 Cleveland     - A. Thornton-  6.1 WARP3
1985 Cleveland     - A. Thornton-  1.9 WARP3
1986 Cleveland     - A. Thornton-  2.3 WARP3
1987 Cleveland     - A. Thornton- (1.0)WARP3
2d. RICK WAITS

The 23 year old pitcher Rick Waits had one game of major league experience when he was dealt to the Indians in 1975. Waits would end up pitching in parts of 9 seasons with the Indians, primarily as a starter. His best season was 1978 when he put up a 117 ERA+ in 33 starts with the club. Unfortunately he went 13-15 due to a lack of run support. Before being part of a 1983 trade Waits would be worth 27.5 wins above replacement for the Tribe:

1975 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  2.6 WARP3
1976 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  2.2 WARP3
1977 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  3.2 WARP3
1978 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  6.6 WARP3
1979 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  5.3 WARP3
1980 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  4.0 WARP3
1981 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  2.2 WARP3
1982 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  1.8 WARP3
1983 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  1.4 WARP3
1984 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  0.1 WARP3
June 6, 1983: Rick Manning and Rick Waits to the Brewers, Gorman Thomas, Jamie Easterly, and Ernie Camacho to the Indians.

Here's where it gets confusing, since Waits was a part of a larger trade. To analyze the trade, we will break it into two parts: Manning for Thomas and Easterly, and Waits for Camacho. That probably undersells Waits a little, but I can't see a more equitable way of determining Rick's value in this trade.

2e. ERNIE CAMACHO: Camacho spent parts of 5 seasons in Cleveland's bullpen. His best season came in 1984, when in 100 relief innings he put up a 2.43 ERA. Camacho signed with the Astros as a free agent at the end of the 1987 season. While with the Indians, Camacho would be worth 9.3 wins over replacement, most of which came from his successful 1984 season:

1983 Cleveland     - E. Camacho -  0.1 WARP3
1984 Cleveland     - E. Camacho -  6.6 WARP3
1985 Cleveland     - E. Camacho - (0.1)WARP3
1986 Cleveland     - E. Camacho -  2.8 WARP3
1987 Cleveland     - E. Camacho - (0.1) WARP3
INDIANS SUMMARY

Overall, the Indians made out like bandits in the Gaylor Perry and Frank Duffy for Sam McDowell trade, which must be considered one of the most lop-sided in baseball history. Despite gaining an extra 14 wins on average from 1972 to 1979, the Indians could still not put a competitive team on the field. One can only imagine how bad the Indians would have been had they not traded McDowell. Given that the team was on the verge of bankruptcy more than a few times in the 1970s, there is a good chance the franchise might not even exist today had they not received such a big gift from the Giants.

1972 Cleveland     - F. Duffy    - 2.8 WARP3
1972 Cleveland     - G. Perry   - 13.6 WARP3
1972 Cleveland     - TOTAL      - 16.4 WARP3

1973 Cleveland     - F. Duffy    - 4.3 WARP3
1973 Cleveland     - G. Perry   -  9.8 WARP3
1973 Cleveland     - TOTAL      - 14.1 WARP3

1974 Cleveland     - F. Duffy    - 2.3 WARP3
1974 Cleveland     - G. Perry   - 10.7 WARP3
1974 Cleveland     - TOTAL      - 14.0 WARP3

1975 Cleveland     - J. Bibby   -  3.2 WARP3
1975 Cleveland     - J. Brown   -  0.6 WARP3
1975 Cleveland     - F. Duffy    - 5.3 WARP3
1975 Cleveland     - G. Perry   -  2.5 WARP3
1975 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  2.6 WARP3
1975 Cleveland     - TOTAL      - 14.2 WARP3

1976 Cleveland     - J. Bibby   -  4.9 WARP3
1976 Cleveland     - J. Brown   -  2.0 WARP3
1976 Cleveland     - F. Duffy    - 2.8 WARP3
1976 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  2.2 WARP3
1976 Cleveland     - TOTAL      - 11.9 WARP3

1977 Cleveland     - J. Bibby   -  4.4 WARP3
1977 Cleveland     - F. Duffy    - 0.5 WARP3
1977 Cleveland     - A. Thornton-  6.6 WARP3
1977 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  3.2 WARP3
1977 Cleveland     - TOTAL      - 14.7 WARP3

1978 Cleveland     - R. Kreuger  - 0.1 WARP3
1978 Cleveland     - A. Thornton-  9.2 WARP3
1978 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  6.6 WARP3
1978 Cleveland     - TOTAL      - 15.9 WARP3

1979 Cleveland     - A. Thornton-  4.1 WARP3
1979 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  5.3 WARP3
1979 Cleveland     - TOTAL      -  9.4 WARP3

1980 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  4.0 WARP3

1981 Cleveland     - A. Thornton-  1.2 WARP3
1981 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  2.2 WARP3
1981 Cleveland     - TOTAL      -  3.4 WARP3

1982 Cleveland     - A. Thornton-  6.6 WARP3
1982 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  1.8 WARP3
1982 Cleveland     - TOTAL      -  8.4 WARP3

1983 Cleveland     - E. Camacho -  0.1 WARP3
1983 Cleveland     - A. Thornton-  4.7 WARP3
1983 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  1.4 WARP3
1983 Cleveland     - TOTAL      -  6.2 WARP3

1984 Cleveland     - E. Camacho -  6.6 WARP3
1984 Cleveland     - A. Thornton-  6.1 WARP3
1984 Cleveland     - R. Waits   -  0.1 WARP3
1984 Cleveland     - TOTAL      - 12.7 WARP3

1985 Cleveland     - E. Camacho - (0.1)WARP3
1985 Cleveland     - A. Thornton-  1.9 WARP3
1985 Cleveland     - TOTAL      -  1.8 WARP3

1986 Cleveland     - E. Camacho -  2.8 WARP3
1986 Cleveland     - A. Thornton-  2.3 WARP3
1986 Cleveland     - TOTAL      -  5.1 WARP3

1987 Cleveland     - E. Camacho - (0.1)WARP3
1987 Cleveland     - A. Thornton- (1.0)WARP3
1987 Cleveland     - TOTAL      - (1.1)WARP3

TOTAL WARP3 1972-1987: 151.1
Trade Analysis - Gaylord Perry to the Indians | 10 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Mick Doherty - Saturday, February 26 2005 @ 02:08 PM EST (#103759) #
Terrific analysis. Trade lineage is captivating stuff. And you want to know just how bad a deal that was for the Giants? Consider for a moment how they acquired Duffy, the "other" player they sent to the Indians.

May 29, 1971: Frank Duffy was traded by the Cincinnati Reds with Vern Geishert to the San Francisco Giants for George Foster.

Yes, the same Foster who later won an NL MVP and had a 50-homer season (when that meant a lot more than it does now) for the Reds.
Pepper Moffatt - Saturday, February 26 2005 @ 02:15 PM EST (#103760) #
Ouch! I had completely forgotten about Duffy for Foster.
Magpie - Saturday, February 26 2005 @ 02:53 PM EST (#103763) #
Good work Pepper, and when you toss in Foster for Duffy to make this trade possible... it does look like the Giants were making some of the worst management decisions ever. This is one of those bad moves that just kept on giving (or taking away, as the case may be.) Most of the famous awful trades that pop into my head (DeJesus for Bowa and Sandberg; Barker for Butler and Jacoby) were just one awful shot of pain...

George Foster for Frank Duffy. No wonder the Giants never could win anything. They grew all these wonderful outfielders, looked at them, and said "hey - you're not Willie Mays! What good are ya?" Besides Foster, they dumped Bobby Bonds, Gary Mathews, Garry Maddox... anyone else?

Perry's 1972 season... it still astonishes. When you've got a pitcher who works 343.2 IP with a 1.92 ERA... well, you kind of think your team would be better than 71-85. Of course, Steve Carlton was even better than Perry that year and his team was even worse.

Rick Waits! It's not part of his trade value, but Rick Waits did make a huge contribution to baseball lore. He beat the Yankees on the final day of 1978, which set up the one-game playoff at Fenway the next day. The Bucky Dent game. Which I'm happy to have stayed home and watched on TV at the time...

Magpie - Saturday, February 26 2005 @ 02:58 PM EST (#103764) #
I was just looking at Sam McDowell's numbers, and there were warning signs, people: he missed some time, ERA was up, Ks down a little. (Not to mention 153 BB in 214.2 IP)

So the question on my mind: who was running the Giants in the early 1970s? Anyone know? I just can't remember.

Mick Doherty - Saturday, February 26 2005 @ 03:49 PM EST (#103774) #
"hey - you're not Willie Mays! What good are ya?" Besides Foster, they dumped Bobby Bonds, Gary Mathews, Garry Maddox... anyone else?

Heh, yeah, they touted every young outfielder they had come up as "the heir to Mays." First it was Him Ray Hart, then Ken Henderson, then Bobby Bonds, who was traded for Bobby Murcer; they abandonded Foster along the way; they also had Dave Kingman around at that time, as well as the hyped Troike of Garys (Matthews, Maddux, Thomasson) ...

Geez, all those guys except Thomasson actually became All-Stars, though most of them not with SFG. If I recall right, even Von Freaking Joshua hit about .320 one year to gear up the hype machine. By then, you were getting into the young Jack Clark era ...

Mike Green - Saturday, February 26 2005 @ 05:17 PM EST (#103782) #
Funny, eh, the Indians were on the right side of the McDowell/Perry and Barker/Butler-Jacoby deals, but were unable to parlay these deals into pennant contention. Unlike the Cardinals, who took full advantage of the Brock (im)Broglio.
Magpie - Saturday, February 26 2005 @ 05:53 PM EST (#103784) #
the Indians were on the right side of the McDowell/Perry and Barker/Butler-Jacoby deals

They also did OK getting Joe Carter and Mel Hall for Sutcliffe, getting Julio Franco for Von Hayes. They assembled a nice-looking lineup. But...

"Pitchers? Pitchers? We don't need no stinking pitchers."

Hartley - Saturday, February 26 2005 @ 09:33 PM EST (#103790) #
While we are talking about the Giants dismantling their team during the 70's. Attendance was bad that the Giants were very close to moving to Toronto in 1976. Luckily local ownership step in and saved the Giants from moving.

Had the Giants moved to Toronto would the Expos still be in Montreal?
Mick Doherty - Sunday, February 27 2005 @ 09:34 PM EST (#103866) #
Weren't the Giants actually looking at moving to Florida?

I'm not sure if baseball in Toronto has any impact on baseball in Montreal ... y'all tell me. Of course, I think the Expos would still be there if there had been no strike in 1994.
Ryan C - Monday, February 28 2005 @ 12:38 AM EST (#103884) #
Weren't the Giants actually looking at moving to Florida?

There's a neat clip or two in the CBC archives about the birth of MLB in Canada. Specifically this one which talks about how the US courts quashed Toronto's bid to buy the Giants, then US President Gerald Ford forbid MLB to give Toronto a franchise before Washington got one. There's a couple seconds of a 1976 press conference held by then Toronto chairman (you guessed it) Paul Godfrey.

I still dont see how that impacts the Expos though. Unless you think that having Toronto in the same league, and possibly same division, as the 'Spos would have increased the buzz around both franchises and created a natural rivalry, increasing attendance, revenues and saving the team. Which also begs the question, would Toronto have won either of their World Series if they played in the National League? And remembering that they would have started in 1977 with the Giants roster instead of starting from scratch. So who wants to play the part of Uatu?

Trade Analysis - Gaylord Perry to the Indians | 10 comments | Create New Account
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