The Jays have a press conference at 11:00 this morning. According to a variety of sources, it will be to announce the re-naming of SkyDome

Have they sold naming rights, or is is Rogers going to choose the name? TedDome, anyone?

to show off the Dome's makeover

Has that stuff already been completed?

and to announce a budget increase.

*Gets hopes up* :)

To answer the first question, it will be Rogers blank, but we're not too sure what the blank will be yet. Probably Stadium, Field, or Park.

I hoping that Carlos would've put an add in the Star as well to thank the fans of Toronto, oh well.

To anyone who hasn't heard, this info was provided by Marty York in his "York Report" lastnight. He said that the increase could happen this year if the Jays were in the playoff hunt.

Exciting time right now for Jays fans, its been a while!

My wild prediction...there are going to be tons of happy Jays fans here post press conference.

The news conference will be carried live on the Fan590 at 11 am. It will probably be worth a listen as the Jays have promised a number of exciting announcements. Maybe they will surprise us?

In cooperation with the Marlins, a "Greetings from Carlos Delgado" advertisement was placed in Sunday's editions of the Miami Herald, South Florida Sun-Sentinel and Palm Beach Post. The ad filled slightly more than a quarter of the pages of the three sports sections.

This was not Delgado's idea, nor did he write ir OR likely spend a dime on it. It's clearly and obviously the (rather brilliant) brainchild of some PR guy. Face it, if Koskie had done the same thing in TO, would any of you even thought to yourselves "Hey, is this really from Corey?" No, you wouldn't have cared. It would have been another brick in the "Koskie is a great guy and TO should love him" fortress.

All that said, bravo to Carlos who surely had to approve the idea and the language, and to the Marlins for knocking this one out of the PR park.

Has that stuff already been completed?

I don't know about the turf, but I spoke to someone who had seen the new scoreboards and the wraparound screens who said that the old JumboTron had been taken down a few weeks ago.

He said that the increase could happen this year if the Jays were in the playoff hunt.

Ugh. So the budget can't increase in 2005 or at least until the off-season?

They don't spend this off-season, create or maintain a 70-ish win team, and now say they'll spend iffin we sniff the playoffs post all-star break?

Great, this is the same as my saying I'll really start working out when Tyra Banks marries me so that she'll get the man with the 6-pack every hot super model deserves.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1107298215045&call_pageid=969907739730&col=970081600908&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes
Read all about the "Yogasm" libel lawsuit by Yogi Berra against Sex and the City. COMN. Does one's sense of humour age along with the skin, bones and organs? What a depressing thought!

Yogi, your reputation is safe with us. We remember you as a great catcher and one of baseball's lovable characters. I am sure that you are a fine family man. This litigation will not help one bit.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/baseball/10793547.htm?1c
Dunno if its been mentioned in another thread, but Cole Hamels just broke his hand in an altercation with 2 Jays prospects (COMN).

The article doesnt say anything about which Jay people were involved - it even refers to them as 'members of the Blue Jay organization', so they might not even be players.

Anyone hear anything else 'bout this?

the "Yogasm" libel lawsuit

The defense is obvious.

"She actually said 'Sex with Yogi Bear,' your honour."

Of course, then you'd be hearing from Hanna-Barbera, I suppose.

The article doesnt say anything about which Jay people were involved - it even refers to them as 'members of the Blue Jay organization', so they might not even be players.

Now we know what Ace and Diamond are really like.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/102-02022005-442928.html
Cole Hamels just broke his hand in an altercation with 2 Jays prospects

I mis-spoke it would appear. Hamels was with friends which included 2 Jays prospects when he got into a fight with other, unnamed parties (COMN).

Google News is your friend :)

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1107298214783&call_pageid=968867503640&col=970081593064&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes
COMN for the Star's report on the Video Screens and the rest of that ish. I'm excited to go watch the opener now for sure.

Does anyone know if the new turf will have dirt basepaths or turf basepaths?

Regarding the out-of-town scoreboards...
Those boards will run from the top of the outfield fence to the bottom and be covered with a see-through plastic shield to protect them from collisions with baseballs and outfielders.

That sounds cool.

They don't spend this off-season, create or maintain a 70-ish win team, and now say they'll spend iffin we sniff the playoffs post all-star break?

I'm okay with spending $30 million on the Dome purchase and whatever the upgrades cost now as an investment to give the team more money in the future or even later this year if the team needs it. This offseason was ridiculous, and I'm not sure what a budget increase would have brought the Jays, other than possibly the return of Delgado.

My wild prediction...there are going to be tons of happy Jays fans here post press conference.

Let's start the chant...
"Magg-li-o, Magg-li-o, Magg-li-o...."

Grand Funk out.

Does anyone know if the new turf will have dirt basepaths or turf basepaths?

Here's hoping they're dirt..from an aesthetics standpoint, it's a million times nicer.

Grand Funk out.

Regarding the out-of-town scoreboards...
Those boards will run from the top of the outfield fence to the bottom and be covered with a see-through plastic shield to protect them from collisions with baseballs and outfielders.

Someone I know in the Blue Jays office said they are most similiar to the out of town scoreboards found in Cleveland, except on a slightly smaller level.

Here's hoping they're dirt..from an aesthetics standpoint, it's a million times nicer

Definitely, I'm just wondering if it would make a difference when it comes to converting the field for other uses.

The Press Conference will be carried live on the Score.

Someone I know in the Blue Jays office said they are most similiar to the out of town scoreboards found in Cleveland, except on a slightly smaller level.

I hope they're modelled more like the one in Pittsburgh...that thing is a work of art.

Grand Funk out.

The Astro turf era is over in major league baseball.

Dirt cutouts around the bases.

Dirt cutouts around the bases.

Bah!

So far, a couple of highlights (from what I can pick up from the Godfrey press conference)

-Integrated 7 screen jumbotron system with 5 colour screens
-long, wrap around style screen thingy (like at the ACC)
-Better out of town scoreboards, with more details
-Fieldturf (which is apparently safer than grass, and also environmentally friendly, and is the choice of the Atlanta Falcons)
-Dirt cutouts around the bases

-they are in discussions to improve the concourses as well as the architeture, making it more fan friendly

-ITS NOW CALLED ROGERS CENTRE

Rogers Center

Yeah, what he said.

Dirt cutouts around the bases.

I like how Godfrey explained that they chose cutouts so they could maximize the use of the field as a multi-purpose facility, then he goes on to explain how Tropicana field hosts all these different events. Umm, hey Paul - they HAVE a full dirt infield. ARRRRGH.

Dirt cutouts just ruined the whole bloody press conference for me. I don't care what else they announce, they just lost me.

Grand Funk out.

Wow, alot of O-Dog in the video promo..... and that's a good thing.

http://me.woot.net
3-year payroll of $US 210 Million. Holy crap.

Budget increase - $210 million over three years. Starting when?

210 mil/3 year in payroll!

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank You Ted!!!!

Rogers Centre

As if.

Sounds like someplace I'd go to argue about my cable bill. For me it's still SkyDome, the World's Greatest Entertainment, um, Centre.

Can you see Fergie Olver saying, "Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen; welcome to Rogers Centre, and how about those Blue Jays!"?

No, you can't.

70 MILLION!!!

Thats 15 million extra, enough to beef up the lineup. Hopefully next year salaries go down.

Ha ha ha.... Ted with a nice Bell jab.... well played sir.

Payrolls getting raised, for the next three years (including this year? i guess not)

to a total of 210 million over three years.

Ted Rogers also compared the jays vs yankees to rogers vs bell

Theres going to be greater media synergy between rogers/sportsnet/the fan/the blue jays

I read yesterday that Delgado had a clause in his contract that if he were to be traded the team that trades for him has to pay his state & local income taxes (there's no income tax in Florida).

Okay, so how do we like $70 million per year?

Clients keep walking in and disturbing my press conference listening experience. They must know I'm busy.

Budget increase - $210 million over three years.

Is that the increase or the total amount?

Hey, there's no harm in asking.

Remember, everyone, if the 210 mil is all that's available for three years, it's to the Jays' long-term advantage to keep the payroll low this year. Save save save!

ITS WEDNESDAYS WITH JP

he just made the most useless statement of all time

their going to q and a

Seeing as how there's nothing to spend anything on right now - who's a FA after 2005?

This has been discussed on Primer. It's a pretty weak crop for 2005, IIRC.

http://me.woot.net
Or, pretending that there's nothing further J.P. can find to spend money on this season, that leaves 78.5 million/season for the two seasons after this one.

Good news on the future payroll.

I wonder when the determination to go to the announced future budget was made. I can't imagine that this was something they just determined in the last couple of weeks.

....It's a pretty weak crop for 2005, IIRC....

Time to lockup the younger guys then (paging Mr. Hudson..).

If they knew about this budget months ago and decided to save it for next year and the year after, that makes me happy.

Wow, I can't imagine a close to $80 million payroll for the Jays. That's mindblowing.

that leaves 78.5 million/season for the two seasons after this one

Is it $210 over 3 years beginning this season or next?

Anything interesting during the Q&A?

Wow! What a press conference, aside from the name, that's huge news about an increased payroll, maybe an Ordonez or just to keep it for some big trades(ZITO!). Think they announced this budget increase this late to not have pressure about re-signing Delgado?

Oh well good news all around
Blue Jays baseball on Rogers Sportsnet, brought to you from the Rogers Centre and brought to you by Rogers Wireless

My comments:

- I'm cool with Rogers Centre. Heck, he bought the building; he can call it whatever he wants.

- I'm pleased that they are bringing in new turf. I'd be happier with dirt basepaths, but I'm glad that players will be able to dive for balls without having to bounce on concrete-like AstroTurf.

- If they're bringing in new scoreboards, will they be upgrading the sound system? Last year, sitting in certain seats at the 500 level was a painful experience. (It varied from seat to seat.)

- More money is obviously a good thing, and having the three-year commitment definitely helps, as it allows J.P. to plan ahead. I just hope he doesn't spend the money on 13 new bullpen pitchers. :-)

Any update on the Sportsnet play-by-play team situation?

I am very glad to see a 3 year budget. I might even have suggested some such thing a number of months ago.

What it will do is allow the general manager to make longer term judgments about value relative to opportunity to win, without the pressure to spend money in a particular year for fear of losing it.

Is it $210 over 3 years beginning this season or next?

JP said it starts right now.

Anybody else notice that there're a lot of things that end in 2007?

If they knew about this budget months ago and decided to save it for next year and the year after, that makes me happy.

If they knew about this budget months ago, and JP signed Koskie, Hillenbrand and SS knowing that the money would roll over to 2006 and 2007 if he didn't spend it, I'm even more pissed about those signings.

Not a big fan of the name, but it sounds to me like they want to position it as a convention centre, and not be limited by a basebally type name. Fair enough, it's Ted's investment, he can do what he wants.

Reports from my wife, watching the Q&A on The Score:

-Money wasn't available at the start of the offseason because the Dome sale wasn't finalized until just now

-The money is available to be spent as of today

Dirt cutouts just ruined the whole bloody press conference for me. I don't care what else they announce, they just lost me.

No games for you because you don't like the cutouts? That's remarkably silly of you.

Anybody else notice that there're a lot of things that end in 2007?

Vernon, Hinske, Koskie, JP, big budget.

Without sounding like a downer, 2008 may not be the best of years.

No games for you because you don't like the cutouts? That's remarkably silly of you.

No, I just meant they lost me right now. I turned off the TV in anger.
Dirt cutouts. What a joke. Talk about half assing the makeover.

Grand Funk out.

Wow it is certainly a new era in the Toronto Blue Jays. This has to be the first time I can remember, (i'm only 18, so i was only 7 years old when the Jays last made the freakin playoff) that the Jays have the door open to FINALLY get over the hump. A new look stadium, financial stability, and perhaps attendance becoming a factor again! I

By my estimates, the Jays have about 117 million comitted over the next 3 years to guaranteed major league deals to 15 players in 2005, 9 players in 2006 (Zaun*, Hinske, Koskie, Cat, Wells, Doc, Batista, Schoenweis, Speier) and 4 players in 2007 (Wells, Hinske, Koskie, Doc)

This of course doesn't include players with less than 3 years of service time, which of course we should be flush with over the next 3 years

Vernon, Hinske, Koskie, JP, big budget.

And the CBA. And what about Halladay? Or does he have one more year?

Don't forget about Doc's contract ending Braden

I'm on the verge of giddiness with all the news from the confrence today. If I didnt have a test in 2 hours I'd be dancing. Gotta love that blue suit.

Ugh. What all the cosmetic stuff really boils down to is "more ads".

The new "ribbon boards" are being compared to the ones at ACC - and those are hateful things - the colours always reflect off the floor during basketball games. At least that won't be a problem with the turf, but who needs more distractions?

At the very least, we're fortunate enough to have a "traditional" name for the 'dome, so hopefully no-one will ever feel obilged to use the new corporate name.

The CBA runs through the 2006 season.

Dirt cutouts. What a joke.

I don't like the cut-outs either. But in 2005 the Blue Jays will share a schedule with the Toronto Argonauts, who use a different surface. As i remember last year, it took a long time for everything to be completely installed with their FieldTurf. Maybe when the Argos move out into their new stadium, we could see full dirt basepaths.

Although Paul Godfrey made a reference to Tropicana Field, the DevilRays are the main tenant by a large margin, and no other team plays there on a regular basis. This makes it possible for them to have the full dirt basepaths.

My understanding is that among FieldTurf or FieldTurf-esque ballparks, the Minnesota infield (with cutouts) plays better than the Tampa infield (with basepaths).

In any event, I really like the idea of going "futuristic" with new Jumbotrons, wraparound screens and built-in electronic scoreboards in the outfield fences; I'm glad they didn't make a clumsy attempt at making the place faux retro. Adding dirt basepaths, making the fences needlessly asymmetrical and putting the Jays in effected pinstripes wouldn't make the Dome -- er, Centre -- a Wrigley Field or even a Coors Field.

But the Rogers Centre can, structurally, be a cool and unique space-agey ballpark that can restore Toronto's rightful place as a must-see for baseball road trippers.

Is this the first major league ballpark to be called Centre/Center?

And by "plays better," I mean for the infield defence, which will conveniently be a crucial component of whatever success the '05 Jays enjoy.

Well, Rogers Center is a whole lot better than say....Network Associates in Oakland and the Enron experiment in Houston.

Jobu, my high school exams have been cancelled for 3 straight days because of fog here in Chatham, Ont. I am bouncing off walls because of all this excitement. I know where your coming from.

So what negative spin do you guys think Griffin/Elliott will put on todays various announcements in the print media tomorrow? No more excuses for JP? Rogers a megalomaniac?

Mrs. Hank also reports disappointment in Godfrey's reaction to a question about how the team will be marketed to draw in more fans -- his answer was something like "a better team will draw more fans". True, but still, you need some kind of campaign.

I agree with Mike D about the stylistic point. Futuristic is the way to go. You gotta work with what you got. Lots of cold concrete and faux retro don't work well together.

So, when do we get the robotic grounds crew?

Griffin will probably complain that they've spent all kinds of money on a fancy computer to run the draft and manage the team.

In any event, I really like the idea of going "futuristic" with new Jumbotrons, wraparound screens and built-in electronic scoreboards in the outfield fences; I'm glad they didn't make a clumsy attempt at making the place faux retro.

I agree with this. You have to play to your strengths. Imagine the possibilities for names if they had gone further in this direction. Imagine calling the stadium...

jay_space

or something.

I'm glad they didn't make a clumsy attempt at making the place faux retro.

Me too. Retro parks are fine if they're designed to be such, but trying to turn SkyDome into one would have left me with a "we've got black uniforms too!" kind of vibe.

http://me.woot.net
Possible talking points for a future Griffin article

• "Ted Rogers has finally ponied up some money for the Jays, like I've been insisting on for so long, but it's not enough/not in time/both."
• "Rogers Centre will never ring true in people's minds like Skydome did."
• "All plans expire in 2007, after which the wunderkind J.P. Ricciardi is going to leave the Jays high and dry."
• "No dirt basepaths? I'm never covering this team again."

Me too. Retro parks are fine if they're designed to be such, but trying to turn SkyDome into one would have left me with a "we've got black uniforms too!" kind of vibe.

Haven't we already fallen prey to that unfortunate trend?

Grand Funk out.

Oh man, words can't describe how excited I am. Down here in New Jersey I have to deal with all the #$&*@ Yankee fans. This additional money is so huge.

Yogi, your reputation is safe with us. We remember you as a great catcher and one of baseball's lovable characters. I am sure that you are a fine family man. This litigation will not help one bit.

Yogi's granddaughter was one of my students a couple of years ago. It didn't even occur to me until she pointed it out (there was a Yogi quote in an article we read). From the way she dressed/accessorized, I don't think the family needs the cash...very bright girl...

Tests cancelled due to "fog"!? You lucky son of a....Happy thoughts.... Happy thoughts.... new turf.... 70 mil.... happy thoughts....

Has anyone heard any possible improvements to concessions or costs?

Futuristic is the way to go. You gotta work with what you got. Lots of cold concrete and faux retro don't work well together.

I still think the biggest problem is the sterile look of the place from the outside. Big honkin' white roof on slabs of grey concrete. How inspiring. The place needs a paint job, pronto - roof and exterior.

Grand Funk out

Haven't we already fallen prey to that unfortunate trend?

Yep, which is why I'm pleasantly surprised that they've taken the route they have.

This has been a good day for a Wednesday.

Wow, if the Jays keep their salary level at $50 million for this year and next (not unreasonable given all the rookies that are scheduled to reach TO) they would have $110 million to play with in 2007.

JP indicated in the Q & A that there were a couple of things he'd like to do now given the budget increase. I guess that means there will be player moves soon to bring in some higher salaried help. I believe his words were - theres's a couple of things we'd like to do and now we can- Perhaps he is looking to overpaying Ordonez on a short term contract- perhaps moving Hinske and prospects to Detroit in a deal involving Dimitri Young - perhaps trading for Barry Zito as he is available -probably a couple of surprises no-one has yet contemplated

And by "plays better," I mean for the infield defence, which will conveniently be a crucial component of whatever success the '05 Jays enjoy.

Very true, and a key point that should not be overlooked. Whitey Herzog built his teams to suit his ballparks; I see nothing wrong with the Jays building an infield surface to suit what could be a really terrific infield defence. Plus, with the 2005 Jays likely needing to use more contact plays and baserunning to help score runs, it makes sense to FieldTurf the basepaths.

So what negative spin do you guys think Griffin/Elliott will put on todays various announcements in the print media tomorrow?

Pretty straightforward, I think: the Jays committed a heinous act by offering Carlos Delgado an "insulting" contract and cutting him loose when they knew full well there was a payroll bump coming. It shows how JP & Co. never intended to bring back a lifetime Blue Jay and outstanding citizen who holds most of the franchise's records (yet whose thank-you ad to Torontonians the Star must have misplaced). It speaks to a breach of trust with the fans.

While I would of course disagree with that spin, I do find it extremely likely that JP knew a payroll bump was very possible, if not imminent. In other words, if the Jays really wanted Delgado -- or if Delgado really wanted to stay -- one or both sides would have made a real effort.

And for what it's worth, I think it's just as well. A $70M payroll (with Delgado earning about $14M of it) in 2005 would not have made the Jays contenders -- not with the Red Sox and Yankees still powerful, not with Adams, Bush and Rios still learning the ropes and everyone else still in Syracuse. But an $80M payroll in '06 and '07, with maximum payroll flexibility, supplemented with league-minimum talent like Adams, Bush, Rios, Banks, Quiroz, Rosario, McGowan and/or Hill available? Now that's a whole different story.

Rogers Centre

Oh, please. "Good morning, this is Rogers Centre. How may I direct your call?" Bad start to the marketing effort, Paul.

GFR: I'm not sure you can paint SkyDome. You could probably paint the concrete, but the white parts have a special membrane on them that shrugs off dirt. I think we're stuck with the way the exterior looks.

Damn it Fan 590.....they should be talking more about the Jays announcement. The two guys that they did talk to about it, were going to start buying season tickets!!

Yes Jobu, three straight days of horrible fog have cancelled exams. It is becoming a bizarre situation at CKSS in Chatham.

How do you think this will sit with the legions of former Jays fans that have left the last 10 years?

GFR: I'm not sure you can paint SkyDome. You could probably paint the concrete, but the white parts have a special membrane on them that shrugs off dirt. I think we're stuck with the way the exterior looks.

Yeesh...that's bad news.

Grand Funk out

If they knew about this budget months ago, and JP signed Koskie, Hillenbrand and SS knowing that the money would roll over to 2006 and 2007 if he didn't spend it, I'm even more pissed about those signings.

Yeah, me too.

I'd so much rather have Delgado instead of Koskie and Hillenbrand and F-Cat and all the other mediocrities that'll be hanging around the next 2 years.

For '05, I don't think there's really anything good on the FA market, which means salaries will probably stay high. Last year was really the time to buy. But there are still a lot of bad contracts that the Jays could take on if they have the spare cash.

The Jays really need a stud power hitter- Vern needs to be v.2003 or Rios has to start slugging. There's really no high-ceiling power hitters on the farm right now. I still think Gabe Gross could become a serious force if you accept that he's gonna fall on his face for a year first.

The most shocking thing about this is that Marty York was correct for once. Isn't this one of the signs of the apocalypse?

I, for one, would be overjoyed with a Magglio signing and a Zito trade. You've got the dough now, JP - let's see you work with it.

Grand Funk out.

Shopping list for next offseason: Firstbaseman, Left Fielder, Starting Pitcher, 2 Relievers (Preferably 1 Lefty and 1 Closer) - Payroll spent on the 20 other roster spots: about 41 million...So if we decide to go 50, 80, 80, then we would have about 39 million for the above shopping list

2006 Blue Jays

1. Orlando Hudson 2B
2. Frank Catalanotto DH
3. X
4. X
5. Vernon Wells CF
6. Corey Koskie 3B
7. Alex Rios RF
8. Guillermo Quiroz C
9. Aaron Hill SS

Bench: Zaun, Hinske, Adams, Reed

SP: Doc, X, Lilly, Batista, Bush

RP: X, X, Speier, Schoenweis, League, Frasor, Vermilyea

I expect most, if not all, of what Ricciardi adds to the roster in the near future to happen by trade and not free agency.

I'd be very very surprised if Frankie Cat was a member of your '06 Blue Jays. Here's hoping for a hot first half this year so we can package him off.
I'd rather keep Hillenbrand at $4'ish Mil a year and lose Cat and Hinske going into '06.

Grand Funk out.

I still think the biggest problem is the sterile look of the place from the outside. Big honkin' white roof on slabs of grey concrete. How inspiring. The place needs a paint job, pronto - roof and exterior.

They should make it look like a giant cell phone or cable converter.

RE: painting, Matt E is right -- the stuff that's on the Dome wouldn't be paintable. Hell, they had to test eighty gazillion* cleaning products just to find one that could clean the roof without eating the surface coating. (Apparently Sunlight dish detergent did the trick and is what they use.)

*fake number made up by me not intended to impy an actual knowledge of how many products were tested.

The most shocking thing about this is that Marty York was correct for once. Isn't this one of the signs of the apocalypse?

Yes. Next thing you know the Yankees will finish in last place.

Apparently Sunlight dish detergent did the trick and is what they use.

I loved that, the first time I heard about it. Sunlight cleans SkyDome. Perfect.

Gross will outproduce both Hillenbrand and Cat in '06 and for close to the minimum. He's been a better hitter than Rios in the minors. Where's the love?

Turning off the TV in "anger" because of dirt cutouts on the infield? That is pathetic.

This is obviously great news. Cynics, of course, will down play the significance of these announcements. But, damn. This is going to make things more interesting in this city.

I'm still curious though, who was actually the difference maker? J.P.? Godfrey? Mrs. Rogers?

Was this the plan all along? Or, did someone flick on Ted's light switch?

As for stadium names, I've always liked "The Killing Fields". Or "Mr. Rogers Sluaghterhaus".

Hey, with all these great wish-fulfilling announcements, where the hell is Moffatt's unicorn?

I'm still curious though, who was actually the difference maker? J.P.? Godfrey? Mrs. Rogers?

Was this the plan all along? Or, did someone flick on Ted's light switch?

My suspicion is that this was, in broad strokes, the plan all along.

And if you think we're excited about it now, imagine how we'd be feeling if the Jays had gone 84-58 last year.

I'm still opposed to a Magglio Ordonez signing unless it comes with more escape hatches than a Penn & Teller show. Ordonez's OPS totals in the last three years have gone 978-926-836, and he's having to go overseas for positive medical opinions. If it's a low-risk or short-term deal, I'm all for it, but there are red flags all over that guy right now.

Gross will outproduce both Hillenbrand and Cat in '06 and for close to the minimum. He's been a better hitter than Rios in the minors. Where's the love?

I'm a Gross booster, and I would've preferred to see him start the year in Toronto. I think a healthy Cat would probably outperform him in '05, but not after that. I'd be careful of the Rios comparison, though -- they're very different players with different career paths, and Rios is a couple of years younger. I think Rios is going to open some eyes this year.

"Gross has been a better hitter than Rios in the Minors" - I beg to differ.

Apparently, doctors are "comfortable" with the health status of Mags, who just counter-offered Detroit's proposal. He wants something like a 5-year deal.

I would love to have him in the lineup. Who should play the 7-spot?

So far, a couple of highlights (from what I can pick up from the Godfrey press conference)

-Integrated 7 screen jumbotron system with 5 colour screens
-long, wrap around style screen thingy (like at the ACC)
-Better out of town scoreboards, with more details
-Fieldturf (which is apparently safer than grass, and also environmentally friendly, and is the choice of the Atlanta Falcons)
-Dirt cutouts around the bases

-they are in discussions to improve the concourses as well as the architeture, making it more fan friendly

-ITS NOW CALLED ROGERS CENTRE

Does anyone else notice that these "improvements" are entirely about advertising?? With the exception maybe of Field Turf, which I like...

Nothing about the game....

though I suppose improvements to the facilty aren't really about the game... but still... all about advertising...

and I HATE those scoreboards that are always in motion around the balcony at the ACC...

I'd be careful of the Rios comparison, though -- they're very different players with different career paths, and Rios is a couple of years younger. I think Rios is going to open some eyes this year.

Jordan-
I want to believe in Rios. But he's had one good year, only twice has slugged above .400. Even in his good year, he didn't have a decent walk rate. Yeah, he young-ish, but not as young as other great prospects. He racked up over 1000 at-bats in A-ball without doing much. Moved off CF, he doesn't have as much value- he needs to hit for power. It's kinda consensus here that '04 was a success because he didn't hit .220, but .338/.383 from a corner OF is really weak.

I compare him to Gross, just based on track record, and Gabe just seems like he'll be the better hitter- has always walked, even when he's slumping, has always hit for power, and has always needed an adjustment period before tearing up the new level. As much as he struggled in the '04 call-up, he managed to walk at a good clip, which is what he usually does when starting a new level.

Rogers Centre

As if.

Sounds like someplace I'd go to argue about my cable bill. For me it's still SkyDome, the World's Greatest Entertainment, um, Centre.

Matthew E, I agree. I mean honestly, is anyone in TO going to call it anything other than SkyDome in the foreseeable future?! Heck, I've still got "Pac Bell Park" and "Enron Field" stuck in my head, and there is no such place as "US Cellular Field". :)

I still think the biggest problem is the sterile look of the place from the outside. Big honkin' white roof on slabs of grey concrete. How inspiring. The place needs a paint job, pronto - roof and exterior.

Honestly, I LIKE the look of SkyDome, always have. I don't understand what everyone's problem with it all of a sudden is. Then again, I miss Exhibition Stadium...

3-year payroll of $US 210 Million. Holy crap.

I formally retract my Ted-Rogers-is-a-tightwad stance of the last several months. I just hope JP knows what to do with it. :)

Anybody else notice that there're a lot of things that end in 2007?

Vernon, Hinske, Koskie, JP, big budget.

Without sounding like a downer, 2008 may not be the best of years.

Braden, my guess is the fact the budget was set for the next three years is directly related to the fact that JP's contract lasts for that period of time. There's no reason to suspect that the money will somehow dry up in 2008. And hopefully, 2007 will NOT be the last we see of Vernon as a Jay...

Some more thoughts:

- I'm not high on Gross, and I'm not sure what to expect from Rios. But both players are young enough to take big steps forward.

- I don't have a problem with having extra outfielders. It's better to have four or five guys who can cover the outfield than to play Dave Berg there. Good teams have depth.

- Maybe it's for the best that the money wasn't available until now. I would have liked to see the Jays re-sign Delgado, but the extra money might just have gone to outbidding the Sox for Matt Clement. Yikes!

- I hope that the Jays use the extra money to sign or trade for one (or maybe even two) top-drawer players. There's no point in spending extra on so-so players. Besides, the Jays' supporting cast isn't bad now; there's nobody in the lineup or even the rotation that is likely to serve as a millstone. I hope J.P. goes out and makes a nice big trade - there must be somebody willing to trade a star for a batch of midlevel prospects.

- I'll be curious to see what some of the more persistent Jay-bashing baseball writers have to say about this. The "they could have signed Delgado" angle is my choice too.

- I'm not used to good news, and am not quite sure how to react to it. Most disconcerting. :-)

"Gross has been a better hitter than Rios in the Minors" - I beg to differ.

If we're adjusting for age/level, you might have a case. But if not, it's pretty clear cut.

AAA
Gross- .381/.454
Rios- .292/.373
Gross has had significantly more PT at AAA.

AA
Gross- .373/.427
Rios- .402/.521
Gross had an extra season in AA, but played hurt for a good portion of his first year there. His second season OB/SLG numbers were .423/.481, pretty comparable to Rios. Rios hit .352 and Gross hit .319. Gross walked 52 time in 362 PAs, which is damn good.

A
Gross- .426/.500
Rios- .315/.369
Rios had one OK season in A-ball out of 3- his last year, he went .305/.344/.408. Gross only played 35 games for Dunedin before getting called up to AA and hitting for poor average but again with good walks and power.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050202.wskyd2/BNStory/Sports/
COMN for the CP story on the press conference.

Does anyone else notice that these "improvements" are entirely about advertising?? With the exception maybe of Field Turf, which I like...

Nothing about the game....

though I suppose improvements to the facilty aren't really about the game... but still... all about advertising...

and I HATE those scoreboards that are always in motion around the balcony at the ACC...

Well, the out of town scoreboards on the outfield walls address a pretty frequent complaint about how lousy and under-detailed the old out of town boards were at the Dome. And I'm praying, praying, praying that the ribbon boards around the 300 level will not be used for the Staples Business Depot Delivery Truck Race (though we all know they will), but at least baseball has rules about screens changing and things being in motion during play.

From Pro Sports daily:

Another challenge awaiting the Blue Jays is the June draft. The club has the sixth choice overall and Ricciardi is ready to eschew the usual college-first philosophy and draft the best player available, even if it's a high-school player who could command more than twice what the club has paid for first-round choices in recent years. If Rogers is serious about spending more money on the team, that could be the first proving ground.

Just to back this up a little more- Gross had one season where his OB% was below .370 and his SLG was below .450. Rios had one season where his OB% was above .370 and his SLG was above .450. For Gross, that's out of 4 seasons, for Rios, out of 6 (if we count 2004 for Rios and 2001 for Gross).

Also looks like a deal is going to be made shortly for Aubrey Huff!!

Where did you hear the Huff rumour?

If we're adjusting for age/level, you might have a case. But if not, it's pretty clear cut.

Adjusting for age and level is not optional.

Johnny Lingo, please attribute all rumors that you hear so we can all make our judgments about how reliable they are. It's as easy as adding "I heard it on such-and-such radio station" or "I read it on Rotoworld".

Thanks! Makes all of our lives less stressful.

I still think the biggest problem is the sterile look of the place from the outside. Big honkin' white roof on slabs of grey concrete. How inspiring. The place needs a paint job, pronto - roof and exterior.

Paul Godfrey is currently discussing ways on improving the outside look. Don't expect the Dome to be painted though. I think stucco facing and brick will end up covering up the concrete.

I was in Toronto a couple weeks ago to pick up my Koskie jersey and realized that the other side of the Dome (hotel side) looks alright. Unfortunately, the picture of the Dome in our mind is the view from the Gardiner. Had they built it the other way around,the picture of the Dome in our minds would have included alot of more pleasant looking glass.

I think stucco facing and brick will end up covering up the concrete.

Oh, good. Maybe they can also have one of those wooden figures of Sylvester the Cat where his legs spin around when the wind blows.

Sorry guys....I just heard it on the fan 960 in calgary , they were saying that Jp had interesting Huff

No probs, Johnny, that followup was perfect.

I just heard it on the fan 960 in calgary , they were saying that Jp had interest in Huff

I give that one all the solidity of Phantom Girl on her way back to Bgtzl.

Adjusting for age and level is not optional.

Why not? If you're saying "who hit better in the minors?" that's a pretty clear-cut question. If you're saying "who hit better relative to their age and level?" now we're getting into subjective interpretation- how much slack do you give Rios for sucking- mightily sucking- in Rookie and Low-A ball because he was young? It isn't like he racked up 1200+ at-bats of .315/.369 performance as an 18 year-old in AA. How much credit do you give Gross for succeeding in his first exposure to professional pitching? How much do you knock off because he struggled in 2002?

You can say "Cal Pickering had a better minor league performance in 2004 than Gabe Gross" without implying that Pickering will be the better player in the long run.

Does anyone else notice that these "improvements" are entirely about advertising?? With the exception maybe of Field Turf, which I like...

Well, where do you think this added payroll is coming from?

Just to check -- we are talking about $210M payroll for the ML roster, so that this does not include signing bonuses for drafts, front office salary, etc? News reports seem to indicate so, which is good news.

I seriously hope that JP is looking for trades (as opposed to signing Mags) -- maybe not now, but perhaps during the season when teams start to tire of their reckless offseason spending and are looking to unload. If we have prospects to offer and money to cover contracts, the future looks better.

I have nothing against Mags but the risk is too high, unless he gets an incentivised contract with a nice easy get-out if he doesn't reach a certain PA level. It would seem a shame to stick him in LF, too.

What a great day to be a Jays fan. I don't see how we could complain about anything. Dirt cutouts? I'd take those with the new turf over that foam turf any day of the week. Even the name is nothing to complain about. If Rogers didn't buy the Dome we wouldn't have the payroll hike and then it would be all for not. If Ted will give us a $70M payroll he can call the Dome whatever he likes. As for the field upgrades, I'm looking forward to opening day even more now!

Marty York also reported that J.P is now interested in Zito either now or at the trade deadline. I'd rahter have Hudson or Mulder, but Zito isn't anything to hold your nose up at.

You can say "Cal Pickering had a better minor league performance in 2004 than Gabe Gross" without implying that Pickering will be the better player in the long run.

Right... but is that what anyone is saying? Just comparing specific years of Gross and Rios and not implying that the comparison means anything about the future?

I like the Rogers Centre logo. Nice impressionistic image of the Dome.

Anyone think Beane has payroll envy now that his former underlings are gonna be scooping up players he couldn't afford to keep? I mean, probably not, but still...if the Dodgers had gotten Hudson and the Jays get Zito...

Big honkin' white roof on slabs of grey concrete. ... The place needs a paint job, pronto - roof and exterior.

Big Funk, you are a wonder to behold. (How's the anger management work going?) And just out of curiosity, what colours did you have in mind for the redecorating of the Dome?

Now with all these changes, does anyone predict any changes to the security staff at the gate? Everytime I walk through there I feel like I'm being looked at through a magnifying glass. I find that they are more rude to the more dedicated fans.

I like the Rogers Centre logo.

Sorry NfH. I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Ewww. The arc is nicely suggestive of the actual dome and a pleasant touch, but then the whole thing is ruined with the text.

Now with all these changes, does anyone predict any changes to the security staff at the gate? Everytime I walk through there I feel like I'm being looked at through a magnifying glass. I find that they are more rude to the more dedicated fans.

VBF, I assume those fine folks were employed by Sportsco, correct? If so, I would assume they would be replaced. :)

Right... but is that what anyone is saying?

Yes. I was saying that Gross has been a better hitter in the minors. Better walk rates, better power. And I said, based on that, I'm not sure who will be the better player, precisely because I don't know how much stock to put in their respective performances. The position shift also changed things- Rios not hitting for power is less of an issue if he's playing RF/LF. But he doesn't walk a lot either, and never has. There's really not much in his record, aside from that amazing 2003, to suggest he'll succeed as a corner OF. Gross has pretty consistently carried his performance over as he's climbed up through the minors. .360/.450 seems doable, and that's a valuable player.

Really, jsoh? Because I think the text does a good job of looking like the base of the Dome.

dp, you're right. Gross overall did hit better than Rios in his minor league career, if one does not adjust for age and developmental level.

However using this fact to suggest that he will outproduce Cat and Hillenbrand in '06 amounts to employing a bad argument in service of a good cause. Many of us agree that Gross is likely to be a better overall player (taking into account both offence and defence) than Cat and Hillenbrand, but one cannot look at minor league stats without consideration of age and developmental level. It's similar to taking hitting stats at Coors Field at face value.

http://www.rogerscentre.com/
COMN for the Rogers Centre website.

I find I am so desperate for the Jays to start being hot in Canada again, I overlook what is better for the Jays. I mean lets not lose our heads here, we still gotta save our money here until we get in a position where we can...........

....ahhhh screw it....lets go get Zito tommorow and rrrreally get this city talking.

http://www.skydome.com
Hey, going to "skydome.com" redirects you to very splashy "Rogerscentre.com". That was fast. (COMN)

Since Blue Jays fans seemed really excited about all the possibilities of this ballclub, anyone know if there's gonna be a BlueJays fan fest or celebration thingy coming up. It'd be nice if they invited all the big fans (prior to the home opener) over to the Dome to get a look at it and meet some players.

Seeing that photo of the new logo has confirmed my plan for the stadium's new post-Skydome nickname. Take the first initials of Rogers Centre and you have RC -- pronounce it with an A in front and you have --- ARC, The Ballpark, with an nice little arc logo to reinforce it.

I give that one all the solidity of Phantom Girl on her way back to Bgtzl.

Matthew, that one was Repoz-worthy.

COMN for the Rogers Centre website.

Oh, the humanity! The pulsating humanity!

Oh, the humanity! The pulsating humanity!

I didn't see any pulsating. Are you sure you were on the right site? :)

I'm puzzled as to why Rogers didn't up the payroll at the beginning of the season. He was asked this question today and he responded with how he had to take things one step at a time and wait for the Stadium deal to go through. That seems like BS to me. I'm pretty sure he knew what the price range for the stadium was going to be months ago. If he was discussing the stadium for around 30 mil, I highly doubt 2 months later the price would all of a sudden shoot up to let's say 80 mil. If he was going to up the payroll this was the off-season to do it, because next season has a very weak crop of FA's.

I thought this year was going to be put up or shut up time for JP because it's the first time he had financial flexability, but with a new 3 year payroll plan, looks like JP will have more time and resources to help shape his plan for the club.

Greetings from Mazatlan!!!
Caribe series started yesterday, with a big and colourful party and today starts the carnival.
Baseball was at its best, Mexico defeating Venezuela 4-0 behind a marvelous performance of Francisco Campos our ace.
Dominicana had a plane problem and their game vs Puerto Rico was postponed, a surprise was to see Miguel Batista on the DR team as one of their five starters.
One dissapointment, that Miguelito Cabrera was not allowed to play the series.
You can follow details in www.seriedelcaribe.com.mx
If any of you have a particular interest or question feel free to e-mail
Regards

I didn't see any pulsating

Just the music. The embarrassing-to-be-heard-at-one's-office music.

"Business is about to pick up!!!" (said in a Jim Ross of WWE Oklahoma drawl)

Ahh. They won't let me have sound on my computer, so I didn't hear it. I guess they're afraid of hearing Blondie's "Rapture" ringing through the halls.

OK, Ron, so let's say there's some sticking point in the deal and it's called off at the last minute, over taxes or some such, and Rogers is left not owning the Dome, not with additional revenue, but committed to a 40% payroll increase.

They'd be stupid to increase the payroll before finalizing the deal.

Jabonoso! Don't party too hard!

Thanks for the update, Jabonso! I'm glad to hear Batista is starting -- it confirms that he's very likely rotation-bound for Toronto in 2005, and it can't hurt to have him start the readjustment back to the rotation a little early. Please let us know if you see him and what you think of his performance. It is too bad Cabrera's not playing.

I posted this yesterday, Jabonoso:

2775104 Posted 02/01/2005 10:14 PM by Mike Green:

Apparently the party atmosphere at the Caribbean World Series starts even before the teams arrive, and this can cause a little disruption. COMN.

We're thinking of you, Jabonoso, as we shiver.

Apparently, the flight problem resulted from excessive partying.

OK, Ron, so let's say there's some sticking point in the deal and it's called off at the last minute, over taxes or some such, and Rogers is left not owning the Dome, not with additional revenue, but committed to a 40% payroll increase.

They'd be stupid to increase the payroll before finalizing the deal.

If this was the case the "deal" should have been worked out earlier to allow for the Jays to make moves this off-seaon. Or perhaps Rogers didn't need to commit to a 40% increase in payroll over 3 years, but perhaps a boost of maybe 5-10 mil for next season knowing it was only a matter of time before a deal would be made for the stadium.

I think it would be safe to say the stadium deal has been in discussions for awhile, and it wasn't something that was struck in a span of 2 days.

Im very interested to see how this payroll increase works out. If the Jays still aren't sniffing at a playoff spot by 07, will Rogers decide spending more payroll doesn't work and scale back to a 50 mil payroll again or perhaps even take the next step and up the payroll to 90-100 mil a season. Of course all of this can change with a new CBA coming in after 06. I hope the new CBA creates a more level playing field. While I'm a Jays fan, I don't think it's good for the game if the Jays have a payroll of 75 mil next season while the D-Ray's payroll is only 35 mil.

I guess they're afraid of hearing Blondie's "Rapture" ringing through the halls.

Moffatt, the thought of that is rather terrifying...

Everythings coming up roses for me and my team! More or less!

A few things:

Ordonez: Forget him. Boras will get him a 5 year 60-70 mil contract with Detroit or somesuch. If healthy he's worth it. NO WAY is he going to sign a one year deal.

Rois: Fred McGriff came up form the minors to stay when he was 25. Power is USUALLY the last tool to develop. Rios WILL HIT 30 homers yearly average from age 28 to 32. Hopefully at least part of that time he'll be a Jay.

Trades: This new money will allow JP to take on new salary in the guys he trades for. We have a wonderful collection of arms in the minors. This is where we'll see JP shine. Who he keeps, who he trades. Let the games begin!

Leastwise, that's how Mylegacy sees things.

No music, Moffatt? That's a shame.

On the other hand, they do allow music where I am. That's good. But the person I share an office with listens to an oldies station. That's bad. But some of the songs I hear are actually decent old songs, like Simon and Garfunkel. That's good. But the radio which plays said rare good songs is a cheap, one-speaker piece of garbage. That's bad.

While I'm a Jays fan, I don't think it's good for the game if the Jays have a payroll of 75 mil next season while the D-Ray's payroll is only 35 mil.

I see your point, but the D-Rays' situation is really their own fault. That is an absolutely terribly-run franchise (think the Expos under Jeffrey Loria)...

Boras will get him a 5 year 60-70 mil contract with Detroit or somesuch. If healthy he's worth it

I agree, but that's a big "if"; Detroit would have to be really desperate to take that big of a gamble (then again, they probably are). As someone who has had multiple knee surgeries as a result of athletic injuries (as Ordonez did), I can confidently say it is not such a quick or easy road back...

On the other hand, they do allow music where I am. That's good. But the person I share an office with listens to an oldies station. That's bad. But some of the songs I hear are actually decent old songs, like Simon and Garfunkel. That's good. But the radio which plays said rare good songs is a cheap, one-speaker piece of garbage. That's bad.

Treehouse of Horrors, right?

VBF, I assume those fine folks were employed by Sportsco, correct? If so, I would assume they would be replaced. :)

I can't speak to the security and gate folks specifically, but I know that a lot of other Sportsco employees were integrated into the Jays organization. It wouldn't surprise me if the security/gate people were as well.

Hey I forgot to mention....There was a Mike Wilner sighting at the press conference. Mike, I think I speak for all Bauxites when I ask you to post something on here giving us an update on your program for Dunedin (Spring Training coverage) on the Fan, or Sportsnet.

Knowing the going rate for the A's " big three " pitchers, why would the Jays give up that much talent for a pitcher ( Zito )that will be a FA after 2006???

Detroit probably is desperate -- they had a decent-but-still-bad bounce-back season last year, and really needed to sign another marquee free-agent like Pudge to keep their momentum going. They overpaid for Pudge, and they'll likely overpay for Mags.

Jordan, I agree.

Nicholas,

why would the Jays give up that much talent for a pitcher ( Zito )that will be a FA after 2006...

...and who had a tremendous drop-off in his performance last season.

next season has a very weak crop of FA's

With a lot of teams going overboard on spending this season, we will probably see a lot of tightened budgets in the 05-06 offseason and a large number of non-tenders. That might not make up for the crop, but the Jays are more likely to look at the non-tender list (younger players) rather than high-priced older stars anyway.

and who had a tremendous drop-off in his performance last season

Because you buy low and sell high. If you only buy players after they've had a good season, you're playing the market with 50-cent dollars.

(Which is different from buying players who have a long track record of poor play, which is not generally a good idea.)

So, Craig, going forward, do you think Zito is a good option, a good "buy low, sell high" type?

Ok, a bit of gambling. I will wager that on balance, the next Richard Griffin column will be positive. But the team is still not above some level of critisism. Why should it be. Ron raises legitimate questions. Early in this thread Tyler does as well.

Tyler, its been fun knocking heads with you over the past few months. I know though, we are both happier campers now.

Count me as one who is feeling a wee bit vindicated today. I know I have been a bit of a "one note Charley" since oh ..... say last June or so. However many sportswriters including RG were spot on and as a Canadian baseball fan thank them for their consistancy.

I am very confident that the announced financial commitment will enable the team to be a real contender in the coming seasons.

What to do with the money? My view is the team needs to turn this dough into a budding marquee player. Probably through trade. Aubrey Huff would be very cool. Pitching depth going the other way because thats what T-Bay needs.

All in all I am pleased as piss today.

As a 24 year old left fielder who batted left handed, Brad Wilkerson (a first round pick) played in 47 games (for ~120 ABs) in his first tour of duty in the bigs. He hit only .205 but posted a .304 OBP, showing good patience with 17 walks. His SLG was a paltry .325 with only 1 HR. That was 2001.

Three years later a 24 year old left fielder who batted left named Gabe Gross (a first round pick) played in 44 games (for ~130 ABs) in his first tour of duty in the bigs. He hit only .209 but posted a .310 OBP, showing good patience with 19 walks. His SLG was a paltry .310 with only 3 HR.

In Wilkerson's second season he put up a .839 OPS in >500 ABs.

To draw the analogy further, Wilkerson was .396/.438 in 2 AA tours and .406/.474 in 2 AAA tours while Gross was .373/.427 in 2 AA tours and .381/.454 in 2 AAA tours. A pretty good match. A pretty great asset.

Is Odalis Perez still kicking around as a FA?

I like the Rogers Centre logo.

Sorry NfH. I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Ewww. The arc is nicely suggestive of the actual dome and a pleasant touch, but then the whole thing is ruined with the text.

One good thing about the name change: they're going to have to update all of the advertising signs in the entranceways to the 500 level seats. When I was last there, some of the signs read "SkyDome: the World's Greatest Entertainment Centre"... and had a picture of Roger Clemens in a Jays uniform. Now, all of these will be gone. Good times.

and who had a tremendous drop-off in his performance last season

Are we arguing the same point?? A premiere young pitcher, a top notch bullpen guy and a prospect ( in Mulder trade a premiere prospect in Barton. ) I don't care what the payroll is. I'm not trading that much to get Zito...

I know though, we are both happier campers now.

I'm happy that Rogers is willing to make more money available for salary-it's the smart thing to do, and I've got a bit of a personal stake in them making people excited about the team as well, so hopefully this works out for them.

That said, I still don't have a lot of faith in JP's ability to spend it wisely, and I'm concerned (rightly, I believe) that it'll get spent regardless of whether or not it can be beneficial to the team to spend it. I'm concerned that we'll see some contracts like we saw Detroit give to Percival, or Arizona to Glaus or JP to Koskie. I hope this new found financial freedom isn't used to ensure that Hillenbrand is here for a while.

If JP spends it wisely, great. If he doesn't, and I think I've got a well founded fears that he won't, this could be a real negative for the team.

Because you buy low and sell high.

Craig, that only works if the player's value then goes back to some semblance of "high" after you buy him at "low". Something about Zito's decline last year (and really since winning his Cy) just doesn't sit well with me. I think it may be the beginning of a sustained dropoff.

Sorry about the italics.

Is Odalis Perez still kicking around as a FA?
No. He resigned with LA

Baseball America has their first 2005 mock draft up. While it's certainly silly to think it'll even closely resemble how things will look in June, I'm rather curious who they have going to the Jays at #6. Could any BA subscribers shed light on the matter?

Nicholas, I meant to say that Zito had a dropoff in performance last season, thus offering an additional reason why I don't believe he would be worth Oakland's likely asking price.

What a day! I am so very glad to see ownership make a firm commitement to the team. This has to be the most rewarding day of the Jays offseason. I cant wait to see what JP does with this budget increase.

Matthew E:

And if you think we're excited about it now, imagine how we'd be feeling if the Jays had gone 84-58 last year.

Going 84-58 in a 162 game season WOULD be something of an accomplishment... ;-)

Sunlight dish detergent did the trick

Also works very well on the bathtub. I'm just saying...

I'm concerned that we'll see some contracts like we saw Detroit give to Percival, or Arizona to Glaus or JP to Koskie.

Whoa, what? Do you honestly think Koskie fits in that category?

Ryan, I agree. I am on the fence about the Koskie signing, but it wasn't nearly as bone-headed as the Percival or Glaus deals.

BA has Tyler Greene going in the 6th spot, Gordon 3rd and Upton 1st.

Rotoworld :

Blue Jays owner Ted Rogers said GM J.P. Ricciardi will have a budget of $210 million to work with over the next three years.
''That represents about a 40 percent increase on the payroll in the past year,'' he said. Obviously, the Jays won't be adding stars left and right. However, they should remain players in free agency in the future"

I didn't have time to read through the thread so I apologize if this is a repost. How nice is a 70 million dollar budget??? With our young guys and an extra 20 million for free agency/flipping young guys for stars I think J.P. can finally deliver a division wnner to Toronto int he next 3 years.

Ryan, I agree. I am on the fence about the Koskie signing, but it wasn't nearly as bone-headed as the Percival or Glaus deals.

The Jays are flush with young infielders-Adams and Hudson look solid, and Hill is on the way, they've got Hinske as well. They committed 3 years to a guy who has had dropping numbers of AB for the past 4 years, who bumps an untradeable contract to a position where his hitting is even more anemic, and who creates a jam in the infield in a year or two. Why JP didn't go after a guy like Joe Randa as a one year fix is beyond me.

I agree. But there will be a team willing to pay the price. He's won't be going for a bargain...

Just wanted to say that was some solid analysis... mr. predictor. Let's hope we see Gross continue in Wilkerson's footsteps.

Apparently I only had to read the intro ... oops... I jusrt got excited and had to come post the good news ;-)

To draw the analogy further, Wilkerson was .396/.438 in 2 AA tours and .406/.474 in 2 AAA tours while Gross was .373/.427 in 2 AA tours and .381/.454 in 2 AAA tours. A pretty good match. A pretty great asset.

Thanks Mr. P. i hope JP hasn't soured on Gross as much as he appears to.

one cannot look at minor league stats without consideration of age and developmental level.

Sorry, I wasn't making myself clear. I think it's a pretty safe bet that Gross will be better than Cat and Hillenbrand in 2006. If he gets the playing time, and doesn't get hurt again, I think he'll be better than them in '05. Of course, in looking at his performance, you consider how old he was at a given level, and how much exposure he got at each before being moved up. Gross had to repeat AA before hitting well there. But he was hurt his first full season there, and I remember hearing the injury was keeping him from driving the ball.

When I brought up not adjusting for age and level together (of course you adjust for level), it was in regards to the comparison between Rios and Gross. Again, I just don't know what adjustments you make. People here seem to think, almost take for granted, that Rios will be the better player. And I'm saying, based on his performance, I don't see it. It's kind of hard to compare because Rios was in the majors this year, hitting for decent average but not drawing walks or hitting for power, while Gross was in AAA hitting for decent average but also drawing walks and hitting for power. I'm saying it's tough to draw any conclusions, but we can say that Gross performed significantly better than Rios at AAA and A, and comparable at AA. But that doesn't say much because Rios was in A ball sucking ass for a long time, only spent one season in AA, and didn't play long enough at AAA to draw any conclusions. The year at AA looks like the outlier to me though...

Why JP didn't go after a guy like Joe Randa as a one year fix is beyond me.

Koskie's bat is good enough that he's a reasonable first base option in 2006 and 2007, if Aaron Hill ends up as a third baseman. The Jays were, and are, short on such options, and the going price for a first baseman this year seems to have been $12 million and up.

I'm hopeful that at some point this year, we'll see a lineup of Quiroz, Koskie, Hudson, Adams and Hill around the diamond with Rios, Wells and Gross in the outfield.

Hey, it's Groundhog Day and Wiarton Willie (or whoever replaced him after his unfortunate passing) undoubtedly saw his shadow on this sunny day in TO, in more ways than one.

Wonderful news for the jays.

Pretty straightforward, I think: the Jays committed a heinous act by offering Carlos Delgado an "insulting" contract and cutting him loose

I hated that guy, everything he did, although morally right, was selfish. Excecising the no trade clause because he didn't get an extension (the marlins wanted him at the trade deadline), not standing for the anthem, refusing the arbitration "deal" from a team that paid him a boatload of money, and the bidding war he got teams into this offseason. I think jp should have sat him on the bench after he used his no trade clause... the prospects could have helped this team a lot.

I don't think 05 is a weak free agent offseason. In my opinion, Berkman is just as good a player as Beltran, as he makes up for his defensive/speed shortcomings with one of the best bats in the game. I think that getting him instead of delgado would make this team way better. Why spend 12 million on delgado when a million or two more gets you Berkman ?

If the jays have the money, I would try to obtain huff and berkman while trading hinske, and sign them for long term contracts.

who bumps an untradeable contract to a position where his hitting is even more anemic

Looking at offense by position is senseless to me. I would rather have Koskie at 3B and Hinske at 1B, than go with Hinske at 3B and sombody lesser than Koskie at 1B just because Hinske's production is somehow deemed to be more "acceptable" at that position.

and who creates a jam in the infield in a year or two.

Bah. I'd much rather have that problem than deal with an utter dearth of offense until then.

Any one know what Ted Lilly's service time is?? I know he's signed for 2005. Is he AE in 2006?? 2007??

not standing for the anthem

How, exactly, is that in any way selfish? Carlos was trying to make a point.

In my opinion, Berkman is just as good a player as Beltran, as he makes up for his defensive/speed shortcomings with one of the best bats in the game.

I agree absolutely. IMO, the FA crop this season was nearly as grewat as it was cracked up to be. Beltran is easily the most overrated player to come along in quite some time. I tend to think that the Mets will get much more value from Petey the next few years then they ever will from Beltran.

Oh damn it. For "nearly as grewat" (whatever THAT means), read "not nearly as great". Sorry.

Delgado did stand for the anthem. Both of them, in fact.

Right. He didn't stand for God Bless America or whatever else such nonsense the Yanks play during the 7th inning stretch.

I'm hopeful that at some point this year, we'll see a lineup of Quiroz, Koskie, Hudson, Adams and Hill around the diamond with Rios, Wells and Gross in the outfield

That would be a very happy turn of events. Giving those young guys prolonged major-league exposure this year can only be good -- either it advances their development or it increases their profiles and trade value. Still, if the Jays are going to plunk down serious coin in '06-'07, I'd want to see it spent on offence -- the pitching is coming along very nicely, and good pitching is very tough to buy on the market.

Please, let's not rehash the Delgado-war thing again. That horse is dead.

What about my other points ?

I always thought of him as a money grubbing baseball player with impecable manners... and this winter confirmed that. What is really bad about this is his refusal to get traded at the trade deadline, one or two prospects could really have been useful. He tried to use the no trade clause to get an extension, at the expanse of the team that paid him one of the highest salaries in baseball.

Nobody has mentioned the Carlos arbitration matter with regards to this new budget figure that I assume JP new about before the offseason. The team declining to offer Carlos arbitration has bothered me far more then anything else that has happened this offseason. Most of the moves this offseason will hardly matter in the future, but declining to offer Carlos arbitration robbed us of (2 first rounders i believe?) that would have been a key element of our minor league resurgance. Even the A's offered Giambi arbitration. Its obvious that this is the strength of the oakland system, and I was hoping that JP understood this most importantly of the values he brought from them.

If your going to allow a player of Carlos's value to walk, you have to at least allow the system to compensate you for your loss. At the time I had assumed that the possibility of carlos accepting arb would not allow JP to make any moves, but with this flexible multiyear budget, the very remote possibilty that carlos would accept a 1 year deal would be a gamble worth taking. Can anyone explain JPs plan to not offer arbitration now?

Can anyone explain JPs plan to not offer arbitration now?

Sure. At the time, they couldn't count on having that money available.

It's even possible - I'm speculating here - that the Jays know, or think they know, something about Delgado that makes them not want to bring him back at any high price no matter what their budget. Something about his knees, for instance.

One of the advantages of giving the position-playing kids a shot in 05 is that it will make it easier to assess needs.

Buying free agent starting pitching seems to be the least viable approach for a small-to-medium budget team, I agree, although the Carpenters, Liebers and Wade Millers are now something that you may want to think about. No, not those Carpenters...

Nobody has mentioned the Carlos arbitration matter with regards to this new budget figure that I assume JP new about before the offseason.

Sure we did, we talked about it earlier today.

The deal to purchase SkyDome was not a done deal until Monday. Therefore, there was no 40% budget increase until Monday.

Hmmm...

just got home a little while ago. Did I miss anything? :-D

Why do birds suddenly appear every time Mike Green is near?

I'm sure the Marlins gave Delgado a thorough workout before they offered him a multiyear deal. I don't know what JP knew at the time, but I hope he would have asked the superiors if the downside of Delgado accepting arbitration would be bearable in relation to the rewards of the offer.

I always thought of him as a money grubbing baseball player with impecable manners... and this winter confirmed that. What is really bad about this is his refusal to get traded at the trade deadline, one or two prospects could really have been useful. He tried to use the no trade clause to get an extension, at the expanse of the team that paid him one of the highest salaries in baseball.

I'm so tired of seeing Carlos denigrated. I can accept that it was time for him to go-he no longer fit with the direction of the team. In hindsight, I wish JP had offered him arbitration, but that choice has been made, and that's life.

As for calling him money grubbing and all the other kvetching-when he made the decision to resign in TO rather than test free agency, he negotiated a no trade clause. It was fair and square, the Jays could have said no, and they didn't. Since when does anyone have to give up what he's negotiated for? The Jays chose to pay Delgado that money and give him that clause; we can argue that they made a bad deal, but if he'd gone Barry Bonds, or if salaries would have continued to rise so astronomically, the Jays wouldn't have been giving him any more money. You makes your choices, and takes your chances.

Carlos likely went to the team where he had the best chance of winning-FLA has recently won a WS, and they play in a toss up of a division, something that can't be said about any of his other suitors. Not that it matters, but he'll continue his protest by declining to stand for GBA. I'm at a bit of a loss to understand how he sold out by doing so.

If you want to criticize him for being a "money grubber", by all means go ahead, but, IMO, you look like a damn fool, and anyone with an ounce of ability to look at the situation rationally would have to agree.

/cranky old man rant

I hated that guy

When did this start? While he was setting every offensive record for his team? Or more recently?

Exercising the no trade clause because he didn't get an extension ... one or two propspects could have been useful.

Well, I think it's because he didn't want to go somewhere for three months. Selfish, as in not in the team's best interest? Well, after the team gets rid of you, why on earth would you care? It's not your team anymore. If he's playing for Boston, why would he be happy about the Jays having prospects?

refusing the arbitration "deal" from a team that paid him a boatload of money

What arbitration deal? We'll offer it if you promise not to take us up on it? You think that was serious? There's obviously no way he was re-signing here within the parameters that Ricciardi and/or Godfrey were talking about at the time. Delgado and Sloane decided to get the little fan dance over with, and among other things, stop stringing the Toronto media and fan base along.

the bidding war he got teams into this offseason.

Him and everyone else. Corey Koskie, for example. When it's possibly your last big contract, I'd go for the max my own self.

Nevertheless, as much as he will be missed - and he will - I must reluctantly agree that it's probably better if you're going forward with a young team not to have $14 million tied up in a 34 year old first baseman.

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet: $70M would have been the 12th biggest payroll in MLB in 2004. Welcome to the mid market!

The deal to purchase SkyDome was not a done deal until Monday. Therefore, there was no 40% budget increase until Monday.

I'm not sure I remember the order of events perfectly, but I think Rogers new they would be purchasing the dome before they declined arbitration. I understand that they couldn't announce the increase until it was official, but I wish they had used this information to offer arb to Delgado. This organization badly needs the picks. Its not every winter that franchise players leave your team.

Why do birds suddenly appear every time Mike Green is near?

I really don't have a clue, but it's been an exciting day and I can't help but feel that we've only just begun.

Dan, do I have to repeat the thread to you?

The deal was not signed and finalized until Monday. That means until Monday, some tiny little sticking point could have killed the deal. Let's say there's a dispute on who's paying the taxes on the sale, or who's paying last year's property taxes, or whether or not Sportsco still owe the Jays SkyBox revenue from previous years. Any stupid little thing like that could kill the deal.

So, until the deal was finalized and signed, which was two whole days ago, there was no budget increase, because Rogers did not have the guarantee of extra income that buying the Dome brings them.

According to the Indians PR department the club and the Padres had made a trade of former top prospects who have fallen from grace: 3B Corey Smith for 2B/3B Jake Gautreau. A change of scenery should be good for both.

So, until the deal was finalized and signed, which was two whole days ago, there was no budget increase, because Rogers did not have the guarantee of extra income that buying the Dome brings them.

This isn't really true. I don't know how much extra income buying the Dome will really bring to the Jays, particularly when you consider the amount of money that they are apparently going to pour into the place over the next couple of years, and that they already have. I suspect that they stand to benefit greatly if they have a winning team, which is likely what prompted the decision to make the increase. I still think an arbitration offer to Delgado would have made sense, in hindsight, because what they got isn't really any better.

"As for calling him money grubbing and all the other kvetching-when he made the decision to resign in TO rather than test free agency, he negotiated a no trade clause. It was fair and square, the Jays could have said no, and they didn't. Since when does anyone have to give up what he's negotiated for? The Jays chose to pay Delgado that money and give him that clause;"

Actually (correct me if I'm wrong here) but Delgado's non-trade clause was NOT negotiated. He was a so-called "10 and 5" player, no? (Ten years in the bigs, five years with the same team).

Regardless, as mentioned above, why is a player "selfish" when they're doing something that they have every right to do? Holding out for a better contract is selfish. Not running out grounders is selfish. Saying "we'll offer you arbitration if you promise to turn it down" is selfish. Asking for the letter and spirit of your terms of employment to be respected just seems like basic human rights.

although the Carpenters, Liebers and Wade Millers are now something that you may want to think about

Wade Miller, sure. He was a tremendous steal for Boston; even given the injury it was absolutely moronic of the Astros to non-tender him. Carpenter and Lieber are an entirely different matter. They slot in alongside Jaret Wright, Benson, and probably Clement as mediocre-or-somewhat better starters (with Benson and Wright being on the low end and Lieber and Clement on the high end, IMO) being ludicrously overpaid.

Oops, forgot Russ Ortiz, the poster boy for this off-season's overpaid mediocre starters.

Hank, which thread was this discussed in?

I had assumed that there where only minor details being worked out since we had first heard that Rogers was to buy the dome from Sportco

A couple of things:

In 2001 and 2002 the payroll was just slightly under $77 million. And, with salaries apparently spiking up again, just being at that level isn't going to make much of a difference. The Jays were below .500 in both '01 and '02.

Furthermore, the increase is nowhere near as benevolent as the media (at
least the Rogers-owned media) is portraying it. In 2003, the payroll was
$51.3 million U.S., or $75.62 million Cdn., based on the rate on Opening
Day, 2003. If the new budget is $70 million U.S., that equals $86.54 million Cdn., today. So, what is being called a 40% increase, is, in terms of real dollars to Rogers, really just a 14.4% increase over the 2003 payroll.

When you factor in the increased amount of revenue sharing the Jays have received since 2002, the bottom line cost to Rogers of the payroll increase is not much at all. Of course, the increase is much better for us Jays' fans than if Rogers had just pocketed the money.

Actually (correct me if I'm wrong here) but Delgado's non-trade clause was NOT negotiated. He was a so-called "10 and 5" player, no?

No.

To the best of my understanding, Delgado's 10-and-5 rights would only have kicked in if he was with the Jays in '05. The clause was negotiated.

He was a so-called "10 and 5" player, no?

No - he became one just before the end of the current season.

His ML service is now 10 years and 2 days.

In 2001 and 2002 the payroll was just slightly under $77 million. And, with salaries apparently spiking up again, just being at that level isn't going to make much of a difference. The Jays were below .500 in both '01 and '02.

Yea, but Dr. Evil created those contracts. I'd like to think we can be smarter with the money this time.

Dan, this thread that you're reading now.

This isn't really true. I don't know how much extra income buying the Dome will really bring to the Jays

How much money did Rogers make from concerts, car shows, trade shows, Barney's Magical World and so on before? How much do they make now?

How much money did Rogers and the Jays make from concessions before? I remember it was something pitiful, like 10 or 15%. Well, now it's all theirs. Yes, they also have to run the place, but I'm betting that the operating costs are the same or less than what they were paying in rent.

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet: $70M would have been the 12th biggest payroll in MLB in 2004. Welcome to the mid market!

*happy dance*

And the benefits of the Jays' payroll increase may well kick in at the exact point the Yankees and Red Sox could very well collapse due to age. (Okay, I'm reaching a bit, but it's possible.)

And considering the Orioles are busy drowning in two feet of water, and the Devil Rays appear to be totally devoid of a clue... hey, you never know...

[F]orgot Russ Ortiz, the poster boy for this off-season's overpaid mediocre starters.

No, I think that title has to be awarded to Eric Milton, who actually got more (per year) than Ortiz despite being worse. I mean, 43 HRs!!

This is the best day of my life since October 23, 1993.

By the way, if you go to the Fan590's website, you can hear an interview with J.P., done this afternoon on "the Bullpen".

When did this start? While he was setting every offensive record for his team? Or more recently?

Would you like a player just because of his performance ? I disliked carlos because he made up his mind that he was going to use his no trade clause as a leverage for an extension. I argued for trading him since I first posted here almost a year and a half ago.

I just don't see your points. Carlos didn't excercise his no trade clause because he was going to a basement team, in fact, one of the trades he declined was to the florida marlins according to the star, I think. How don't you call that selfish ?

He knew he wasn't going to be back, and for his own interest, he used the no trade clause to get the lucrative extension. He waited to see if the new york yankees can take the money away from giambi and give it to him, isn't it money grubbing ?

Sure, he had every right to decline trades, but it is still selfish. Delgado was always concerned about number one, not winning, and I disliked him because of that.

Yea, but Dr. Evil created those contracts. I'd like to think we can be smarter with the money this time.

I'd also like to add that money can't buy winning all the time, but with intelligence, it can help. Any way you look at it, a 20 million dollar boost helps.

And one more thing:

How much money did Rogers and the Jays make from concessions before? I remember it was something pitiful, like 10 or 15%. Well, now it's all theirs.

Rogers can increase concessions revenue at the ballpark by serving real edible food. I'm not exactly a health nut, but the in-game ball park options last year were mostly (a) hot dogs, (b) pizza, (c) popcorn.

Give the fan the option of eating something that won't cause indigestion, and he or she might actually eat at the ballpark. Which makes 7:05 starts more attractive.

Lee,

When I referred to Lieber with Wade Miller, I thought I was being clear but perhaps I wasn't. I was referring to the 2003 Lieber deal that the Yankees made, taking a modest risk on an above-average pitcher with an injury who can, if he heals reasonably, really help you.

Err, that first sentence was meant to be a quote. My italics tags didn't work for some raison.

I had assumed that there where only minor details being worked out since we had first heard that Rogers was to buy the dome from Sportco

Right. But minor details could have killed the deal. That's what I'm saying, and that's what Godfrey said when asked at the press conference why they didn't have the higher budget at the start of the offseason: until the deal was done, they couldn't count on the money.

Rogers can increase concessions revenue at the ballpark by serving real edible food. I'm not exactly a health nut, but the in-game ball park options last year were mostly (a) hot dogs, (b) pizza, (c) popcorn.

And the hots dogs and popcorn were bad. However, the sushi, located at section 120, was quite good, and their Bento boxes on the weekends were stellar.

Any way you look at it, a 20 million dollar boost helps.

Bingo. Payroll wise, the Jays just added 2/3 of the Devil Rays to what they already have. Not sure if that's a good thing actually, but it's something ;)

Carlos didn't excercise his no trade clause because he was going to a basement team

I don't believe any basement teams were in the running. He exercised the no-trade because he wasn't interested in going somewhere for three months.

""I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet: $70M would have been the 12th biggest payroll in MLB in 2004. Welcome to the mid market!""

Be still my beating heart.

This by far and away exceeds any good news i was expecting to come out of this off season. Now the focus shifts form ownership to management. Someone had mentioned earlier that 2005 is going to be a weak crop for free agency. But all the same, I’m excited to see what J.P. has up his sleeve now that he has the cash to realistically compete with the big budget teams.

Baseball America has their first 2005 mock draft up. I'm rather curious who they have going to the Jays at #6. Could any BA subscribers shed light on the matter?

They didn't say it, but it seemed like it was just their ranking of the top 30 players, and not who they project to take with each selection.

In 2001 and 2002 the payroll was just slightly under $77 million.

True, but the majority of that money was wasted badly. $70 million per year, well spent, is certainly enough to contend, as has been proven recently. Of course, you could argue that JP may not spend it well, and I would say that is certainly a possibility...

No, I think that title has to be awarded to Eric Milton, who actually got more (per year) than Ortiz despite being worse. I mean, 43 HRs!!

Ryan, there's definitely a good case to be made for Milton, too, but when I watch Ortiz pitch, I just always get the feeling that must have liked to play with fire as a child... ;-)

When I referred to Lieber with Wade Miller, I thought I was being clear but perhaps I wasn't. I was referring to the 2003 Lieber deal that the Yankees made, taking a modest risk on an above-average pitcher with an injury who can, if he heals reasonably, really help you.

Sorry, I get what you mean now. Yes, you're right.

However, the sushi, located at section 120, was quite good, and their Bento boxes on the weekends were stellar.

I suppose that it makes sense: when you pay good money for seats, you get the opportunity to eat better food. Sigh. Them that has, gets. :-)

NFH's routine:

Pick up Season's Pass ticket (to 500 level)
Enter at a gate near 120
Explain to usher trying to heard NFH upstairs that NFH needs sushi
Buy sushi and tell self "It's okay, the ticket was only a buck"
Walk upstairs

Can anyone explain JPs plan to not offer arbitration now?

What Hank said. You do not put money down on your new garage package until your house deal goes through. Even if Rogers planned to buy the Dome, and ultimately raise payroll, they would be silly to raise the payroll based on the plan. If things go sideways, they could have seriously impacted the team's ability to go forward.

Comparing Delgado and Giambi is not fair. I would bet Giambi was coming off a contract that was lower than what he was likely to receive on the open market. There was no way he would accept and if he did you could trade him to about 10 other teams. Delgado was never going to get in free agency what he got last year. He was almost certain to accept arbitration and would have likely wound up at around $15 million (maybe more). On top of that the Jays could not trade him without his consent. JP knew how willing he would have been to accept a trade.

Lee I can argue the money is not well spent already. Almost $6 mil for Koskie, the Schoeneweis deal, Batista's and Hinske's remaining contracts, and even the $12 mil a year left for Halladay can be argued as mis-spent money...

Any way you look at it, a 20 million dollar boost helps.

Unless you're the Mets. Seriously, Phillips could've been a good GM on a $50 million budget. But he had money, and spent it in ways that were beyond foolish. Swallowing the spider to catch the fly- signing Appier to an absurdly long and bad deal, then having to take on Mo Vaughn to get out from under the contract. Burnitz, Ziele, ect. Just because you have money doesn't mean you should spend it.

Why not keep the payroll under 55 mill for this year and next, trade assets like Cat, Lilly, Hinske :O for prospects, and then go for it in 2007. Sign 4 guys to huge one year deals, the young guys will have improved from alot of playing time, and we have a chance at making a big run. But who knows what the playoff format will be in 2 years...

Lee I can argue the money is not well spent already. Almost $6 mil for Koskie, the Schoeneweis deal, Batista's and Hinske's remaining contracts, and even the $12 mil a year left for Halladay can be argued as mis-spent money...

Nicholas, I disagree strongly about Halladay. Schoeneweis and Hinske are unquestionably horrible deals at this point. At the time of the signing, I thought the Batista deal was great, but after last year I have my doubts. I'm lukewarm on Koskie.

Here's a list of possible free agents for the off-season of 2005:

Sheets
Sanata
Hudson (as in Tim)
Weaver
Wagner
Taverez
Konerko
Carlos Lee
Larry Walker
Giles
Damon
Guillen
Wilson
Snow

Nicholas, I absolutely agree about Koskie, SS and Hinske. (will also add Hillenbrand/F-Cat- I can see paying one DH but not two) But Halladay, no way. You have to pay your ace. He's a guy you build around. Batista looks like a mistake, but a reasonable gamble who could rebound this year. I don't trust JP to sign free agents at this point- let's hope Koskie and SS make me wrong.

Pick up Season's Pass ticket (to 500 level)
Enter at a gate near 120
Explain to usher trying to heard NFH upstairs that NFH needs sushi
Buy sushi and tell self "It's okay, the ticket was only a buck"
Walk upstairs

You have more guts than I do: I'd be afraid that the final step would be

Frogmarched up to 500 level without sushi

or even

Apprehended, placed in holding area until supervisor has opportunity to give me a stern talking to, then evicted without sushi, ticket, or dignity

:-)

Even the A's offered Giambi arbitration

Jason Giambi made $4.1M in 2001 and he was let loose on a market that was expected to be spend-happy, one that clearly valued him among the top one or two players available.

Delgado's turn came up in a market that was assumed to be weak, he was maybe one of the five most desirable free agents and had just come off a season where he was paid $18M. Those situations aren't at all comparable.

Here's a list of possible free agents for the off-season of 2005:

Sheets
Santana

Both Sheets and Santana are free agents after 2006, not next year.

I'd love to see Lance Berkman end up a Blue Jay, but after missing out on Beltran there's no way the Astros don't get him locked up long-term before next winter.

He was almost certain to accept arbitration and would have likely wound up at around $15 million (maybe more).

I can't see Carlos accepting a one year deal. It just would not have been prudent. The only way he accepts arbitration is if teams had offered him multiyear deals like the joke of an offer that the jays made, making the one year arbitration figure similar or greater then the multiyear figures. JP should have been able to gauge market interest to see that there would be deals coming in that would blow his arbitration figure away.

Having said that, if the Jay's braintrust really felt there was a chance the sale wouldn't go through, and that they couldnt handle the contract in that scenario, that helps me understand the decision a little better. You never know if the offers will be revoked after the guy injures himself on his couch in puerto rico.

Think Larry Walker wants to come to TO?

(Probably still bitter about the CDN athelte of the year snub that he might hold it against JP).

Something makes me think Santana is going to get some Major Major money next off season.

You're right Eric, the person who compiled it for me was wrong.

Halladay won more than 8 games twice. When he's not hurt he's great. But he's hurt way too often. I would rate the other deals alot worse. Over spending on top-notch talent is fine. Over-spending on middle of the road players ( Koskie, Batista...) is what kills a team's budget...

This is truly a great deal for the Toronto Blue Jays as a franchise. I'm elated that Rogers has done this much for the Jays, hats off to Ted. For all the trash talk he's had to withstand, he came up big when it counted and his efforts deserve to be commended.

As far as the Jays go, is anyone else excited about watching this infield work next year? I am a fan of great defense, I live for it. In high school I was all area strictly because of my defense (centerfielder, I only batted around 260, but I walked a lot!) and I've always had a soft spot for the athleticism involved with making a great defensive play, it's an artform for me, although many may feel differently.

I can just imagine how good Koskie and Hudson will be, I'm still not sold on Adams or Hinske at his new position although I think it's a good fit. I really had hoped the Jays would get Mientkewicz from the Sox when they still had a chance, although I understand why they couldn't with Hinske still on the roster and him being a tough guy to trade. He (Doug) would have saved some throwing errors for Russ and the entire infield, and although he's not a great hitter, his defense is absolutly phenomenal.

Now THAT would have been something to see right there... Koskie, Hudson, and Mientkewicz all in the same infield.

Rejoice Jays fans, it's a beautiful day!

WOW, see what happens when you don't visit da Box in the morning.

Just to be sure, this is Grond Hog Day right? And not April's Fool Day.

Great news! And the news answers my question from a few days back about why Rogers wasn't supporting the Jays financially. They just had to have a few pieces fall into place.

In addition to the Skydome revenue streams, don't forget each team's portion of the satellite radio deal. If I recall properly that's an additional $4M/yr.

From the FA list, I can envision Carlos Lee in a Jays uni playing 1st base in '06.

Sure, he had every right to decline trades, but it is still selfish.

And you could easily argue that the Blue Jays were selfish for wanting to trade him. They were thinking of themselves first, after all. It works both ways.

Halladay won more than 8 games twice. When he's not hurt he's great. But he's hurt way too often.

Nothing of the sort. He's been hurt once. His earlier struggles were because he didn't know what he was doing yet, and that's behind him.

http://me.woot.net

Halladay won more than 8 games twice. When he's not hurt he's great. But he's hurt way too often.

Are you insane? Halladay has been hurt during exactly one season, last season. The two years prior to last season, he led the league in IP. Roy Halladay may be many things, but fragile isn't one of them.

DaveInNYC: I've always preffered making the great defensive play to the big hit. I have always been the cleanup hitter for whatever team i play for, and usually hit the most homers on the team, along with the highest average. I used to play a lot at first base, and nothing made me prouder then my errorless season one year, and as afirst basemen i consider any throw in the dirt to be catchable. I play centerfield for my current team, and i made a couple of catches last year that my team was amazed with, and that felt alot better than any 2 homer games.

My dream offseason for next year

Lilly, Reed, Hinske, plus prospects if necessary for Dunn

O-Dog, prospects if necessary for Zito

Sign Tim Hudson to a huge deal

Sign Lee or Piazza to DH to a deal

Adams
Hill
Wells
Dunn
Piazza
Koskie
Rios
Gross
Quiroz

Bench: Zaun, McDonald, Menechino, F-Cat

SP: Doc, Hudson, Zito, Bush, Batista,

RP: League, Frasor, Speier, Schoenweis, Gaudin, Chacin, Vermilyea

The Rogers assistant guy who was at the press conference is on sportsnet primetime right now

Sorry, can't remember his name

sweat, your humility is a wonder to behold!

Tony Viner--thats it!

He said SkyDome will also be getting a completely re-done sound system to aid the bad acoustics. Secondly, Rogers Centre employees will be fined for referring it to SkyDome.

Elliot Friedman asked if they considered building a new stadium (ha!). But overall, McCowan seemed pretty positive about the situation now. It's important for major faces in the media to begin to recognize that this team is making major efforts to get better, and provide hope for the future.

Ya I like making big defensive plays. I'm probly the best that I know of. People tend to be in shock and awe after my athletic displays. In one game, I recorded every single out, and hit three homeruns. Though I've always been the best hitter on my team, and always hit more than one homerun, unless I make three amazing catches, I really get down on myself. I also have an I.Q. of 158, model for an underwear company, and many people consider me the funniest person they know. Ya I'm pretty cool. That's why my girlfriend is hot and rich.

I can back that up, his girlfriend is a fox. And the heir to the Oh Henry! candy bar fortune.

At least you said it...so 50 other's didn't have to.

Anyone here actually play baseball?

Caino forgot to add that he was an All-American basketball player in high school and turned down a scholarship from UCLA. Later in life he served with the Marines in Vietnam, an experience that helped him during his major league managerial career.

Rogers as far as I know where trying to buy the SkyDome since they bought the team in 2000 I think it was. I would assume that they are not dumb and that if they could have bought the Dome a few months ago in time for JP to spend more during the off-season they would have. In fact let's assume they're even smarter and would have done it three years ago if they could have.

JP will miss out on this year's prime targets now but the 40% increase that could have gone towards this off-season can now be applied during the year or towards 2006 or 2007 as desired. This is a very flexible budget and a good situation for Ricciardi who can now go after targets of opportunity without worrying about being restricted to set number in any of the next three years. As long as he stays under $210 million total of course.

I think they are currently right around $50 million for 2005. If they choose not to add anyone then that's $80 million for each of the following two years. Which would put them at around two thirds the spend level of the Red Sox but still less than half the spend level of the Yankees (but a lot closer to half now). And if they really wanted to go crazy in 2007 they could shift money around to give themselves $100 mil to spend that year and $60 mil in '06. I think this type of plan works infinitely better than a year to year budget.

QUICK! J.P. on the Score in 5 min.!!!!!

Great news, no question. The question is, what is JP going to do with the money? A couple of years ago, his strategy was fairly predictable: seek undervalued high-OBP offensive players, strengthen the farm system as a renewable resource for young cheap talent (the "developmental machine" philosophy), buy low on the FA market, and make astute trades based on superior player analysis.

Lately JP seems to have abandoned this strategy in favour of an ad hoc, sorta pitching-and-defense philosophy. The problem with this approach, as I see it, is that you just sort of muddle along--which makes it easier to sign guys like Hillenbrand, Schoenweis (and, to a lesser extent, Koskie)--to use examples from this off-season. They can all "help" the team in certain ways (Hillenbrand's decent BA, and low strikeouts; Schoenweis' decent LOOGY numbers; Koskie's injection of power), but there is no real foundation of excellence because you're always trying to patch some perceived deficiency.

Does a team need a coherent organizational philosophy? I don't know, but I suspect the answer is yes. Contrast Billy Beane, who made a clear change in his team's approach this off-season (to unload impending free agents with high market value, and rebuild around the excellent young talent he received in return). Or the Red Sox' high-OBP, high-powered offense over the last few years (to go along with a few first-rate starters and closer).

I'm really hoping JP doesn't go out and make splashy trades or signings just to have a Zito or Ordonez. To me, this would be yet another step away from his original approach to rebuilding the team. We would become just another $70-million dollar team that throws money after relatively pricey players--sort of like the Orioles or White Sox of recent years. Or, now that I think of it, the Ash-era Jays. If JP acquires these kinds of name-brand players, it would confirm for me that he has lost confidence in his ability to acquire excellent young talent and outmaneuvre other teams in doing so. Trading O-Dog and prospects for Zito? This would be a heist for Oakland. Signing Ordonez? Any team with an extra $10-15 million can pull out its checkbook.

Besides, do we really want to squander everything for a playoff run in 2007, and then disband for another 5-year rebuilding effort after JP skips town? Wouldn't you rather see a team that competes year after year, with a stocked farm system--a la Oakland, Minnesota, Atlanta, St Louis?

Does anybody have any idea what effect the FieldTurf will have on ground balls in general? Is it faster/slower than the old turf? Is it harder/softer/bouncier?

It's good news, of course. But frankly, I'm happy if for no other reason than I don't have to listen to J.P. Ricciardi endlessly excuse himself because he has to operate on a miniscule budget. After three solid years, it's over. For that alone, I give thanks.

Does anybody have any idea what effect the FieldTurf will have on ground balls in general? Is it faster/slower than the old turf? Is it harder/softer/bouncier?

Since it's more like grass, I would think it would be both softer and less bouncy than the older, harder Astroturf.

Does anybody have any idea what effect the FieldTurf will have on ground balls in general? Is it faster/slower than the old turf? Is it harder/softer/bouncier?

Since it's more like grass, I would think it would be both softer and less bouncy than the older, harder Astroturf.

I've practiced on similar stuff.
It's not bouncy like the old turf but it's still a lot more bouncy than a real grass field. Although sometimes balls tend to skip on it.
It's made with tiny bits of rubber and small plastic strips of fake grass. When balls are it on the new stuff you'll see the rubber bits fly in the air. Players should be much more willing to dive on it because it's much more cushioned than astroturf.

FieldTurf plays much closer to grass than traditional turf. Traditional turf is like carpet with underpadding spread over concrete. That's how fast it is. FieldTurf has simulated blades of synthetic grass with synthetic "sand" and tiny rubber particles (which come from recycled tires) acting as a base to slow down grounders. You can also customize how slow the field plays to an extent by increasing the amount of particles you use under the 'grass'.

I think the increased payroll is easily the biggest news of the day.

I have heard that Fieldturf is slower than some grass fields.

Sportsnet indicated during the last sportscast that JP only found out last week about the new budget amount. McCown in November or December got JP to admit that a budget of $60M would be nice, so I think this amount was a surprise to him. Also, Ted Rogers was interviewed and the impression I got from him was that they are spending money in the hope of making more money not because they have a sudden windfall of cash. That there is a financial risk involved but it was important to invest the team for the city's and the country's sake. He sounded almost patriotic. Anyways, kudos to Rogers, it's far more than I would have expected.

Also, JP said they were not interested in Ordonez because he wants a multi-year deal.

JP was on the score and when asked about next season he said if the team can stay healthy, the Jays will probably finish over .500. He didn't commit to a win total though.

I know a lot of Jay fans have complained about the disturbing trend of rising player salaries, and next year the Jays could have a payroll in the 70-80 mil range, I wonder if people are going to complain that the Jays might be driving up salaries.

know though, we are both happier campers now.

I'm happy that Rogers is willing to make more money available for salary-it's the smart thing to do, and I've got a bit of a personal stake in them making people excited about the team as well, so hopefully this works out for them.

A personal stake? Ok, Tyler, give. I have been wondering why you have been sitting on Ted's wallet like it was your own. If I didn't know better I'd have to think your working in Rogers Communications office or you have taken out a bank loan on Rogers shares for your RRSP portfolio.

I guess if Ted says its ok to invest his dough its ok for us fans.:)

I have been wondering why you have been sitting on Ted's wallet like it was your own.

I really don't like hearing JP whine about not having money to spend on players when it doesn't make any sense to spend money. It makes me crazy. If I thought that the Jays spending $70MM this year would have had an effect in terms of their chances of being in the hunt this year, I'd be the loudest one calling for it. I don't, so I'm not.

I'm an Oilers fan too, and I'm not too popular with that fan base these days. I have a hard time connecting the Oilers lack of payroll with their competitive issues when the team hasn't had a good first round draft pick since Ryan Smyth, who was drafted in 1994. If your first round picks suck, it's going to be hard to compete.

I've got a bit of a personal stake in them making people excited about the team

A personal stake? Ok, Tyler, give.

Maybe he sells Blue Jay T-Shirts down at the Dome, er, sorry Centre ;) Wait is it Centre or Center? Is Rogers going with the traditional Canadian spelling or not?

It's centre Ryan

I'm happy about everything. Everything is better. I'm not gonna picky enough to say it could even be better at this point. I'm all good for a while. Welcome to the game, Mr. Rogers.

I can't see Carlos accepting a one year deal. It just would not have been prudent.

I would think he would be much more likely to accept it than an older player, say a 37 year old FA pitcher coming off a 16-6 season. The pitcher, you have to figure, is looking to get one last multi-year deal. At his age and all. That's what your average GM would think. Whereas a 32 year old slugger coming off a bad year is much more likely to figure on having a comeback year and doing better in the FA market at age 33.

This, of course, is the tale of Greg Maddux and John Schuerholz... Maddux shocked and surprised the Braves by accepting arbitration rather than becoming a free agent.

Guess who found an old proline ticket in his room? Here's the QOTD, can anyone tell me the scores from the following games from June 24th 2004?

Yanks vs O's
Cubs vs Cards
Braves vs Fish
LA vs SF

First person right gets a no prize.

I never meant to imply that i was the most skilled ball player on the box, if i was trying to go that route i would have mentioned how good my OBP and SLG was. I only meant to show that despite the fact i am a pretty good hitter, i have always preferred the big defensive play to the big hit.
Caino: While my gf isn't rich, she certainly is hot, which is still pretty good.
I don't really understand the level of sarcasm/hostility from some of you, as it isn't like i said i was playing AA baseball. But thanks for the productive follow up comments.

I think the general consensus around the diehards on this website is very good and very optimistic that alot of good things will be coming from the Blue Jays in the future. Rogers has recently demonstrated its commitment to this franchise, and to making the SkyDome more player and fan friendly. But has this message been reached by the casual fans and if it has, do they share the same optimism that we, the die-hards do?

Clearly, increasing the payroll is only the first step. Producing wins, thus creating fan interest, and boosting attendance must occur, otherwise the new revenue streams (made possible by the purchasing of SkyDome) will dry up. Three people must do their job for success:

1)Rogers must invest in the ballclub. This has been accomplished.
2)J.P. must use the money effectively from day one to create wins.
3)Once this team starts winning, it is the duty of the fans to support this team in their city. The team needs the fan-generated revenue to maintain the payroll. That is why the team cannot tank in 2005 and potentially lose many fans. It would only make it harder to win fans back for the future, even if it is a winner.

It is necessary that this increase in payroll is the first domino in alot of good things to happen on and off the field, and I share in the confidence that it will.

Vernon's Biggest Fan,

to you I say;

AMEN!

Guess who found an old proline ticket in his room? Here's the QOTD, can anyone tell me the scores from the following games from June 24th 2004?

Yanks vs O's
Cubs vs Cards
Braves vs Fish
LA vs SF

First person right gets a no prize.

Ooh! No Prize!

Yankees 5, Baltimore 2
St. Louis 4, Cubs 0
Atlanta 9, Florida 4
San Fransisco 9, LA 3

You can get all of last year's scores at mlb.com still.

I'm an Oilers fan too, and I'm not too popular with that fan base these days. I have a hard time connecting the Oilers lack of payroll with their competitive issues when the team hasn't had a good first round draft pick since Ryan Smyth, who was drafted in 1994. If your first round picks suck, it's going to be hard to compete.

Don't forget that the Oilers picked Ryan Smyth with their second first round pick that year. The Oilers took the forgettable Steve Kelly two picks before choosing Smyth. Oh yeah, and they overdrafted Smyth because he grew up around Glen Sather. Bottom line: the Oilers suck at drafting and I don't buy for a second that they can't compete without a cap. That's what happens when your director of player development lives in Mazatlan year round (no joke).

Back on point, I'm ecstatic about the Jays news. Hopefully the Griffins of the newspaper world won't spend the whole year whining that JP should spend his money immediately.

By the way, why is Zito so prominently discussed as a midseason pickup? As far as I can tell, the A's plan on winning the AL West this year.

http://www.yorku.ca/harris/2220/viper.jpg
DAMNIT!!

I woulda won if not for those Chokin' Cubs. Who bets on the Cubs? I'm an idiot...

Anyways 6-4-3, it's not your fault I lost by one game (technicaly...) so COMN for your No Prize, or if Stan Lee's lawyers ask, its a "No Prise".

That's what happens when your director of player development lives in Mazatlan year round (no joke).

They shitcanned that guy a few years back. The drafting still sucks, although they're solid in the rounds after the first now; they've pulled a couple of decent prospects from later picks.

I have no sympathy, although I wish they'd get their shit together.

Don't forget that the Oilers picked Ryan Smyth with their second first round pick that year.

What's scary is that they picked Jason Arnott in 1993. That's decent, but he was the first first rounder of consequence since Jeff Beukeboom 10 years earlier. Anyone else surprised that they sucked for the '90s?

DAMNIT!!

I woulda won if not for those Chokin' Cubs. Who bets on the Cubs? I'm an idiot...

Anyways 6-4-3, it's not your fault I lost by one game (technicaly...) so COMN for your No Prize, or if Stan Lee's lawyers ask, its a "No Prise".

You don't want to mess with Stan Lee's lawyers. If you google "stan lee lawyers", you get 154,000 hits. Don't become the 154,001st victim!

That's a nice snake . . . I'm not sure why a 220 course in Psychology is playing around with snakes, and I'm also not sure if I want this man:



to be handling vipers.

Man, that's one bad mugshot for a professor.

The Oilers are an Old Boys Club--without the money. I'm surprised that they fired their Mexican head of scouting. My complaint about the team for the past 15 years is that no one ever gets fired if they have a history with the organization. There's no accountability in the organization. The only guy who was fired quickly was George Burnett. Of course, he was a relative outsider and since he didn't play on the Oilers in the 80s he couldn't possibly coach, could he? By the way, watch the toilet language Tyler. The mods are probably asleep dreaming of Zito and Dunn playing for the Jays in 2006. However, they can be cranky when they wake up and find the language here has deteriorated.

Hey, he's got a heavy british accent. Therefore, he's my favourite professor this year.

I wonder what kind of super powers Stan Lee's Lawyers have.

Hey, he's got a heavy british accent. Therefore, he's my favourite professor this year.

My favourite professor this year was a metaphysics professor with a heavy New Zealander accent, who told stories about the stuffed corspe of Jeremy Bentham. Good times.

Never underestimate the power of a commonwealth accent to get you through class with a smile on your face.

Now if Gibby had one, that'd be sweet.

http://www.rogerscenter.com
COMN for the American website rogerscenter.com. Maybe there is a partnership opportunity for the Jays. I'm sure that many Jays could use work on their penmanship.

There's no accountability in the organization.

If the season ever starts, join us at hfboards.com. We could someone else who sees this.

Man, that's one bad mugshot for a professor.

That's no professor, that's Paul Godfrey circa 1976.

Don't believe me? Ha! Check out Paul Godfrey's photo on this page at CBC Archives.

The mods are probably asleep dreaming of Zito and Dunn playing for the Jays in 2006.

No, I'm right here. Maybe I should sleep, I'd learn more.

By the way, Oilers fans, for a good Oilers rant, check out Colby Cosh's upcoming piece on the lockout in the Western Standard. Colby posted a mini-rant earlier today that looks very, very promising. :)

Don't believe me? Ha! Check out Paul Godfrey's photo on this page at CBC Archives.

Degree from Cambridge my ass! I'm on to you Godfrey..... give me an exam tomorrow morning will you!?

I think the deal here is that the team management has finally punted the ball back to the fans. For years we've complained about the lack of good facilities and a well-funded team and used that as an excuse for our lack of enthusiasm (not speaking of bauxites, but of course of the average fan). With this new commitment to actually improving and sustaining a respectable team, this is the perfect opportunity, especially with the hockey lockout, for the average torontonians to begin supporting their baseball team once more and showing a commitment to supporting this new strategy from the management.

Such a commitment from the fans would undoubtedly lead to further increases in quality and investment in the team from the ownership, as it'd then be proven sound and economically viable. Thus we can only hope that the average formerly apathetic torontonian takes their opportunity to support a team that has given the average fan the perfect chance to do so.

The Pimp and his Arse
This is your arse, This is a hole in the ground

Take your hand and grab behind u – that part of the body that u sit on….it is called your arse…..u know where they found Saddam Hussein?….that was a hole in the ground

See the difference?

Well, the Italian stallion in charge of the bluejays can’t tell the difference between em….yup, our man, the pimp of hogtown, has taken a perfectly good franchise and driven it into the ground, right next to where Saddam used to hang out….

Look, I was perky when he came to town…..moneyball baby….trained on the holy lap of Billy Beane himself…..gonna get us good value for our ‘have-not’ franchise (u know the one that used to hold all the attendance records)….after years of fat gordo and invisible Belgians, we were ready to play with the big boys again…well, if not the big boys, we could at least hold our heads high above the truly fucked up (u know who u are)…

So the pimp comes into town, fires Buck Martinez because Buck never learned that it is better to make fun of something than to try and manage it….hired Carlos Tosca….a veteran minor league guy…a teacher to help our kids grow up to be useful….

Heck, he even got kudos for his first draft because the immortal Russ Adams was close to the bigs….moneyball baby, the jays were soon gonna be loaded with guys who can’t sell jeans but walk on water (or at least to first base, a lot)….

Then the rumours started spreading that the pimp, who was born a nor’easter, wanted to take on the green monster…and that the bosox were loading up the brinks truck to snare him…..but nope, the jays ponied up and paid the pimp the fortune he deserved

And I’ll betcha the blood sox have never been so happy with a decision in their life….cuz in the interim two years, they’ve won the bloody world series….and we, er, finished below tampa bay

Yeah that’s right… tampa fucking bay….the place where moonshots become doubles…the town where the only reason to watch the game is that guy who sits behind home plate and shits all over Hinske…the place that takes perfectly good 18 year olds and makes them big leaguers

Sure, sure, there’s reasons why we finished last…..nurse Halladay got hurt (jeez, after pitching about as often as Wilbur Wood in the preceeding two years, who saw that coming?)….pulp woodward didn’t turn out to be the second coming of Tony Fernandez (gasp!!!!….heck, the second coming of Manny Lee would have been nice….and I sure don’t say that with a smile on my face)….baseball america poster boy alexis rios hit exactly one more dinger than I did…gabe gross just isn’t any good….and those 10 new relievers we brought in, well they became dangerous to the glass on windows restaurant…..and Eric Hinske without steroids makes one yearn for old ‘e-5’ himself, Babs Sprague’s boy toy….

Gang, the problem with the 2004 bluejays is that they were just really bad…to put it in detailed analysis – they sucked….i know it was fashionable this time last year to pick the jays as the sleeper for 2004…just like Anaheim (er, the angels of arnie land) and the royals were in years past….well guess what??? The pimp had us all fooled – u, me, and all the ‘experts’….we snatched defeat from the jaws of victory….and the pimp didn’t even have the decency to send us each a pack of smokes after the season (I like to have a smoke after I get screwed)….

So, 2005 is looming…. the yanks added a unit, the bosox opened up the vault, jeez even the orioles landed steroid Sammy…..what have our guys in blue, er, silver and black (how come the bluejays aren’t blue anymore?) done to meet the challenge ….well, we let the best hitter to ever wear our blue or black or silver walk away…..ok, no probs, we knew that was gonna happen….Canadian dollar and all (hey, I thought that got better???)…watching dingers go sail out of skydome’s hatchback roof was too much fun anyway….so what tricks did the pimp have up his sleeve? ..after all, its now time for him to prove how he’s gonna save our small market franchise (the fifth largest city in north America with a monopoly tv audience that touches 3 oceans)….

Well, as I understand it we landed a third baseman who almost has a back that works – but, hey he’s Canadian and we’ll cut anybody from Manitoba slack – lord knows they deserve it….and we sign two catchers who both had fluke seasons in recent memory just so we can block the hyped kid who would at least make games interesting – not to worry, the catchers will be broken down by May and Quiroz will be putting the over in over-rated….we let the mets snare woody (ok, that was a good one…silly mets)….we trade some piece of junk to the rays for one of their failed prospect pitchers….we let reed f. Johnson keep breathing (this is why assisted suicide should be legalized)….we resign what is left of Cat’s workable body parts….we tell everybody that the kid with the bono like sunglasses is gonna be our closer but just to fuck with him, and us, we bring back Billy Krotch (yahoo, Canada’s space program will get a huge kick start when one of Billy’s perfectly straight heaters enters orbit)….and the crème de la resistance, we bring in our new dh….Shea fucking Hillebrand…ya know the guy that the blood sox, who won the world series – not finished last, couldn’t wait to run out of town…..the shame….yup, that’s gonna replace ralu 25 (ralu is the inuit word for god…god now lives in Miami….god must have learned something while he was living in Canada)…..

Yup, the pimp has impressed the bejesus out of me….and preparation h (Hinske and Hillebrand) brings us back to the pimp not knowing his arse from a hole in the ground….

So, I’ll betcha I sound a bit jaded, eh?….probably another bluejay fan jumping off the s.s. skydome as it sinks….well, one would think…..but nope, proving that I’ve always been an arse man, I’m taking my credit card, my buddy Neal, and lots of duty free liquor and am heading off to Dunnedin in march….cuz, the pimp is gonna rock me…u should see these guys play (don’t u wish that u could see them play on the visiting team and that we had real players, ya know with stats and everything)….u betcha, Nunavut Greggie is no fair weather fan, hell Mike Masoodian had the right idea – get the jays logo tattooed on your arse (sudden thought, when the jays changed logos, did he?)….I was gonna say I’d be cheering the jays on, but lets not kid ourselves, I’ll be giving em my money, letting their ushers treat me like shit, yelling insults at what they loosely call ballplayers and drooling over that girl in behind home plate who gives beer to Geddy Lee cuz there’s an arse (er, the waitress not Geddy) that even the pimp could tell from the hole in the ground he's driving the jays into....

Ah, the joys of jaydom….bring liquor…get a chart for the pimp that shows j-lo’s greatest attribute as compared to that well in Kansas or wherever that the kids keep falling into…and for our jays tv ad this year, find that woman who used to lay on the floor flopping like a beached tuna, yelling “I’ve fallen and I can’t get up”…it would be appropriate

regards

Unfortunately for the average fan, a step in the right direction, even a major one, isn't enough. It will help certainly and take some heat off of a franchise that had the toughest year imaginable but real change in customer loyalty will not happen until real change in product quality is demonstrated for at least an entire season.

The extra money should help make the product improvement easier but the team still has to make good on the opportunity.

Wow.

Do we give out Primeys at battersbox? I'd like to point out all the inaccuracies with nunavut greggie's post but I can't do it. I enjoyed his post too much. If only Richard Griffin was as entertaining when he's being negative about the Jays.

In some strange way I enjoyed reading nunavut greggie's post. It was very "creative" and I wish the Jays had more fans that share his passion, albeit it's all negative. But at least he cares.

Preparation h is funny. I hope that one sticks. It should, since Hinske and Hillenbrand are two much debated players around these parts, and at times can be a pain in the... Hinske at least. Hillenbrand hasn't doen anything yet, but it still much argued about.

Hey Greggie! How the hell are ya? A gem!

Y'all are lucky this guy stopped by. He's a pisser, a great guy, and probably the most devoted Jay fan ever...

To quote Billy Madison:

"Mr. Greggie, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

Y'all are lucky this guy stopped by

No, we're not.

No, we're not.

As someone who went through the Ash (Fat Gordo) years with Nunavut, I can tell you he's as enthusiastic a Jays fan as you'll find. We've spent more than a few offseasons praising the management for putting together a team that could bring back the glory days, only to watch it all fall to dust by May 1.

And looking back on it, it's really amazing the talent that's come through this organization without much to show for it- they produced 3 of the late '90s best lefty hitters in Delgado, Olerud and Green. Also had a shortstop with a ton of promise in A-Gon, and Shannon Stewart, who at times looked like he was gonna be Rickey Light, Jose Cruz Jr, pulled a 30+ HR SS out of thin air in Tony Bautista. Felipe Lopez amounted to nothing, not even a decent yield in trade. They had a large stack of catchers but are starting '05 with a journeyman after 2 were moved off position and dealt and the other exiled to Tampa Bay because he sucks that bad. Doc and Vern are amazing talents, the building blocks of the club, but there doesn't seem to be another player like Delgado or Vern (don't say Rios- Wells was light years ahead of him at 23) in the pipe.

It seems like an organization that blew all its good karma in '92-'93 and is doomed to have enough talent to keep its fans frustrated rather than resigned to suckitude/joke status (Bal'mer, TB, Detroit, Pittsburgh, the Brewers).

Well Nunvavut greggie put a lot of thought and effort into this, and yes, sadly a portion of this rant was indeed true. But unfortunatley for him, it is obvious that God himself could NOT have gotten the Jays past the Yankees the last 4 years he has been here with their plethera of superstars. So greggie, you should come back and be prepared to defend some of your errr...rather bold statements. But thanks for posting man, it was enjoyed despite my disagreement with some of your statements and the spitting on of everything a TRUE fan believes in.

Greggie, at Batter's Box we like to keep the personal insults to a minimum. Critique is good, the stream of consciousness is fine, but stuff like "Billy Krotch" is just infantile, and really below all of us. Also, if you intend to imply that a player was using steroids, please either reference your source or evidence or state that you're just wildly speculating. It's unfair to both the player and all of us to lay it out there like it's an accepted truth when it is not.

Thanks.

Amen NFH

but stuff like "Billy Krotch" is just infantile, and really below all of us

Speak for yourself. I've called him Billy Krotch for years. Actually "Billy's Krotch" because a female friend of mine used to only watch Jays games because she thought he was hot and wanted to scope him out. And she'd say "I hope they bring in Billy's Krotch" and imply that she hoped it could get brought in other places. And when did "infantile" get below us? Or do Star Wars jokes not count as infantile? Or are those a step above- "pre-pubescent"?

Man, you guys are harsh on the dude. There's enough hyperbole in there that the Hinske/steroid thing shouldn't be taken seriously- you don't think he's implaying that Reed Johnson should actually kill himself? Or that a ball hit off Krotch will actually enter orbit? (OK that one is feasible...) Or that JP's actually a pimp?

I'd rather see a fan deal with their frustration like that insetad of running a regression analysis. Nunavut's exactly the type of fan that's crucial for the Jays- someone who'll come out no matter how bad they play...

Man, we drank a lot of Kool-Aid duing the Ash years. I remember thinking Carlos Garcia and Orlando Merced were gonna be great, and that Plesac was the worst of the 3.

dp, I can't see anything in my post as being harsh. I wasn't mean about any of it, and I didn't alter Greggie's post or delete it, I merely let him know what our standards are here, and childish insults and potentially hurtful rumors without any basis in fact or attribution are not welcome. I did feel that the Reed Johnson comment was distasteful, but I felt that I had given enough examples with the two I pointed out. The pimp comment, on the other hand, I found actually pretty funny considering its genesis.

I know it's hard to understand, which is why I have to post the same thing every time I or anyone else makes a request like this, but you can be critical without being insulting, and that we would like everyone to try to remember that. It's not about drinking Kool-Aid or toeing any lines, it's about respect for other human beings.

No, we're not.

but stuff like "Billy Krotch" is just infantile, and really below all of us.

Wow. Imagine that. Magpie and NFH without even a shred of a sense of humour. I'm SO surprised.
While I was reading that long, incoherent rant my Nunavut Greggie, and chuckling quietly to myself, I wondered who would be the first to shoot him down and try to corral him. No real shock who it was.

Lighten up you two.

Grand Funk out.

(don't say Rios- Wells was light years ahead of him at 23) in the pipe.

It's a little too simple to toss of "age 23 season," when in fact, Wells turned 23 the December before the 2001 season while Rios turned 23 during May of 2004. It's probably more usefult to be comparing Rios' 2004 (.286, one homer in 426 AB) with Wells 2000 (.312, one homer in 96 at-bats). Wells still a little better, but hardly by "light years."
The point here is not that Rios will be as good as Wells, but not to blithely use stats only when they are convenient becausethey can be twisted any number of ways.

Speak for yourself.
Feel free to speak for me, too, NFH.

And the "Star Wars is infantile" argument is tired. There's nothing profane about a science fiction reference, so you're talking about an entirely different kind of juvenility. In fact, if you want to go there, isn't it awfully jevenile to care so much about a kid's game like baseball? Being a Trekkie or whatever has far more in common with being a Jays fan than it does with using inappropriate language or the kinds of nicknames that earned you detention in second grade.

It's not about drinking Kool-Aid or toeing any lines, it's about respect for other human beings.

Why aren't you following your own advice then, NFH?
Respect his opinions, and leave it at that.
Stop trying to censor everything people write in here.
Good lord, despite my disagreements with many of the things he said, and despite the fact that it was laced with profanity, I think that has to be the most entertaining post in months.
Leave the poor guy alone.

You're like the bloody Gestapo.

Grand Funk out.

but you can be critical without being insulting

Yeah, but it's no where's near as much fun...

Seriously, ask yourself if anything in that post would be out of bounds when the Jays rip on each other after a game. It's a game. It's about fun. Dudes hitting a ball and getting paid hundreds of thousands for it.

I take your point. But the line between funny and offensive tends to be pretty subjective. Like for some reason I've never been the slightest bit bothered by "Grand Funk out" no matter how many times it appears on a page. But that's b/c it reminds me of this scrawny kid from college who liked GFR (waaaaay too much)...

It's not about drinking Kool-Aid or toeing any lines, it's about respect for other human beings.

Two different points, sorry to imply otherwise. The offseason was all about me, Nunavut and the rest of the Jays fans on fastball feeding each other shots of the Ash Kool-Aid. And getting burned every year.

Not this again.

….and those 10 new relievers we brought in, well they became dangerous to the glass on windows restaurant…..and Eric Hinske without steroids makes one yearn for old ‘e-5’ himself, Babs Sprague’s boy toy….

If Greggie was trying to make a "joke" about Eric Hinske and steroids, it sure passed me by. A rant is a rant, but there are limits, and this one went miles beyond those limits.

A rant is a rant, but there are limits, and this one went miles beyond those limits.

Whose limits?
Your limits?
So, your a proponent of limiting free speech too, along with NFH and Magpie?

Grand Funk out.

and Eric Hinske without steroids makes one yearn for old ‘e-5’ himself, Babs Sprague’s boy toy….

Grand Funk Railroad, please explain to me why it is obvious that this sentence does not mean "I believe Eric Hinske was on steroids and that he's off them now". Sure, it's presented in a funny way. So? Does saying something in a funny way automatically mean that you don't really believe it?

Doesn't to me. Doesn't to a lot of people. I can't understand how it means that to you, but maybe you can explain.

I have a sense of humor, and I found the post funny, for the most part, which is why I didn't delete or alter it. However, unfounded allegations and kindergarten name-calling are two things that we don't want at Batter's Box, and when I say "we" I am referring to those of us who spend the time and money to run the place. If you want a baseball website where you can call people names and imply that they took drugs and everyone knows it, go spend your own time and money on it.

Why aren't you following your own advice then, NFH?
Respect his opinions, and leave it at that.
Stop trying to censor everything people write in here.
Good lord, despite my disagreements with many of the things he said, and despite the fact that it was laced with profanity, I think that has to be the most entertaining post in months.
Leave the poor guy alone.

Who complained about the profanity? Not me. Not anyone that I can see.

GFR, you're not reading what I'm writing or you're just trying to make me mad. I've said what I'm going to say, and if you have a problem with it, please leave. I'm tired of going through this over and over again. You know the rules by now.

And as for taking my own advice, I don't see where I called him a rude name in my response. Maybe you can point it out to me.

http://me.woot.net
You're like the bloody Gestapo.

Oh boy! Godwin's Law is again proven correct.

Limits? This is a baseball blog to discuss baseball and the Blue Jays. Unless someone is printing this out and taking it to Hinske's mom, who cares? It may be an insult, and it may be personal, but we're talking about professional athlete's here, who are probably still sleeping, or getting up for an rough day of nothing while everyone is looking at the clock to see when their next lunch break is so they can get off their office chair and go eat.

I don't believe it hurt anyone's feeling, except a couple old men for no apparent reason.

You're like the bloody Gestapo.

yes, that's exactly right. NFH is responsible for the deaths of millions of innocents. Good analogy.

Grand Funk Out

We only wish.

http://tsf.waymoresports.thestar.com/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?2132
It's a little too simple to toss of "age 23 season," when in fact, Wells turned 23 the December before the 2001 season while Rios turned 23 during May of 2004. It's probably more usefult to be comparing Rios' 2004 (.286, one homer in 426 AB) with Wells 2000 (.312, one homer in 96 at-bats). Wells still a little better, but hardly by "light years."

Performance-wise, Wells was light years better. Look at his track record in the minors- Wells had one off year in the minors. He hit better than Rios at every stage of his development. Rios has had one good year in the minors. Wells had several. I posted what Rios has done in the minors further up the thread. For Vern's performance COMN.

The point here is not that Rios will be as good as Wells, but not to blithely use stats only when they are convenient because they can be twisted any number of ways.

Riiiight, because that's precisely what's going on. I know we all want Rios to be great, but there's really not much in his performance that would suggest it. This isn't to say that it won't happen. "He's going to develop power"- maybe. With Wells, you had a demonstrated track record of hitting for power, and it didn't require the same leap of faith.

Unless someone is printing this out and taking it to Hinske's mom

We have documented cases of players and players' families coming to Da Box. Does that change your opinion at all?

And don't compare it to a clubhouse where things are said face to face and everyone knows who said what and for the most part you can appropriately read intonation and expression. ALL those things are out of play in an essentially anonymous online environment.

Braby, we care -- we have standards, and they are high. And in the case of the Hinske-steroids comment, it's not about hurt feelings, it's about accuracy and fairness.

Whether or not you think that they'll ever read it is not the point.

I don't believe it hurt anyone's feeling, except a couple old men for no apparent reason.

It didn't hurt my feelings, I just didn't think I was lucky to have read it. It reminded me of an 11 year old boy trying to sound clever and grown-up by using a lot of dirty words... If you find that sort of thing funny, power to you.

You're like the bloody Gestapo.

Well, really, we'd be a lot more like the Gestapo if we took him outside and shot him.

His post hasn't even been deleted.

I grumbled. NFH explained what was objectionable about it.

That's the Gestapo? Criticism?

What does that make you? You're not exactly shy about calling people names, and criticizing what they say? Perhaps you're the KGB, or the Gardia Civil?

Magpie, remember that for all of GFR's "you guys have no sense of humor" posts, he's the one who freaked out at you when you made a joke about his handle.

Yes I realize that players have came on here, and yes I realize that you want to limit the "name calling." But I beleive that whenever something like this happens, you guys blow it up to be a little too much, and then arguments occur.

But yes, I do see where you're coming from...though I still loved that post.

Braby, how did I blow it up? I posted a nice, polite little note explaining our views and then people jumped on me. I couldn't let it stand, as-is, but I didn't want to delete or alter it because it wasn't mine and it still had something to offer. So instead I posted a short, polite note about do's and don'ts on Batter's Box and I get attacked for my trouble.

Sorry for taking the effort. Should I just delete the post without saying anything next time? I don't think anyone likes that as an alternative.

Oh boy! Godwin's Law is again proven correct.

And that would mean that this thread is done.

We have documented cases of players and players' families coming to Da Box. Does that change your opinion at all?

Doesn't change mine. I'm not being difficult, but part of the job is being in the public eye. And they're well-compensated for it. If you don't develop thick skin early, you're probably not gonna make the majors. Reed Johnson, I don't know the guy, but he makes a hell of a lot more money than me, is living the dream of millions, and probably is a pretty cool guy. If you went to him with that comment, he'd probably laugh. Because it's hyperbolic instead of vitriolic, at least the way I read it. Hinske's lost his power, so someone makes a steriod joke- not an insinuation, a joke. I think there's a line. I can see your point, I just have different standards. And I respect that you left the post up, and always respect y'all for providing this site and the content, enthusiasm and intelligence I find here.

But then, I've got bad taste- I laugh at David Cross's necrophelia routine...

dp, here's the line:

and Eric Hinske without steroids makes one yearn for old ‘e-5’ himself, Babs Sprague’s boy toy….

Where's the joke about the steroids? As far as I can see, the gag follows "Eric Hinske without steroids", unless you find the line "Eric Hinske without steroids" as being a joke on its own. To me it just looks like an accusation. Despite the tone of the piece, there is genuine criticism in Greggie's post (and that's what makes it good), so unless you're prepared to argue that he doesn't, in fact, mean to criticize the Jays at all and that the whole thing is one big lark, I don't think that the Hinske bit is really defensible.

I wouldn't be going out of my way like this if I didn't think the post was, on the whole, good. I certainly don't agree with most of what he has to say, but it's entertaining.

But unfortunatley for him, it is obvious that God himself could NOT have gotten the Jays past the Yankees

Yeah, the parasite thing was a pretty weak effort. And using Huck to take out Jeter was the right thinking. But being all-powerful, you'd think he could at least crash a team bus or soemthing...

The whole LCS, I had to listen to my friend rant about how god's a yankee fan. It was fun when they lost...god apparently was on vacation, or just doesn't give as much of a damn about sports as we think...

Where's the joke about the steroids? As far as I can see, the gag follows "Eric Hinske without steroids", unless you find the line "Eric Hinske without steroids" as being a joke on its own.

I think he was exaggerating to make his point about Hinske's loss of power. Again, kinda like the "balls going into orbit" line. I don't want to beat this to death, maybe I'm being too generous in my interpretation. But if he'd put a disclaimer in there about not really thinking Hinske's on steriods, would that make it OK?

I would be fine with that. It would still be in poor taste, but it wouldn't be the same kind of nasty implication.

I don't want to beat things to death either, but sometimes it's good to clarify.

IMO the powers that rule our site tend to overreact a little bit. Not terribly, just a smidgen.

AND, that is the reason nothing ever gets out of hand. They don't censor (often), they critize and by drawing the line a little too low they ensure no one goes way over it.

MOSTLY, we talk basball here, mostly we respect each other, mostly this is Da best baseball blog in Da World becasue of that.

Lets all stay in the family even if occassionally we get a bit testy.

Peace brothers (and sisters).

The thing here is anonymity. Does it change your mind that a reporter or columnist like Griffin posts his name, his freaking picture and it is not hard to track him down personally from there, when he writes such comments? Or that a TV guy is putting something of a personal risk on the line, live? Or that a teammate in the clubhouse is not only visible but in arm's reach (and fist's reach)?

I remember clearly in the interview series I did with Baker and Griffin that they pointed out how intimidating it was to write something negative about a guy like Delgado or Cliff Johnson and then have to go stand next to his rather massive frame.

As soon as these rants are posted with full names and contact information rather than handles and all-too-often fake e-mail addresses, then we're on an even playing field.

Taking cheap, vulgar shots at players when you're hiding behind a screen is easy.

Yes, GFR and others, there are limits. One of those limits is "no libel". In particular, we do not suggest any particular player uses steroids unless it is confirmed (as for instance in the Giambi or Caminiti cases).

Some people find the sharing of malicious gossip, rumour or speculation fun on the telephone, or at the office cooler or in a bar. Others don't.

But this is different. We are publishing for the whole world to read (and our readers are indeed all over the world). We are hardly unusual in not wanting to publish libel.

I remember clearly in the interview series I did with Baker and Griffin that they pointed out how intimidating it was to write something negative about a guy like Delgado or Cliff Johnson and then have to go stand next to his rather massive frame.

Is that why Griffin writes so much negative stuff about JP? Because he can take him in a fight? :>

As soon as these rants are posted with full names and contact information rather than handles and all-too-often fake e-mail addresses, then we're on an even playing field.

For the record, Nunavut's e-mail is totally valid. It's baseball man. Griffin and Baker get paid. Johnson and Hinske and Krotch (sorry) get paid, and quite well. If Hinske became Designated Team Lighting Rod, he'd take another step closer to earning that contract. Nunavut pays, and pays pretty often, to watch these guys play. Big f'n difference. Players get heckled pretty anonymously all the time. Like when there's huge crowds of people chanting "you suck", it's tough to go physically intimidate all of them Comes with the territory of being a major league ballplayer.

jeez, didn't mean to set off any smoke....just i enjoy this page daily and thought i had a fun trinket to toss on it....didn't mean to offend or upset...but didn't mean to go gentle on the joys of jaydom either

for the record, i'm a 47 year old man, named greg rogers (they named a stadium here in hogtown after me yesterday - i was quite flattered)....i serve as the executive director of the native men's residence ( www.nameres.org ) where u can find my address and phone number if u really think i'm hiding behind some sort of screen name....i probably am a bit crude - i do work in the homeless sector after all...and i take great pride in being childish and infantile cuz i deal with far too many people that take themselves far too seriously....

i'm glad some enjoyed....and i really do apologize should i have offended anybody....as for hinske and roids - lord no, i can't imagine why anybody would think i seriously thought that (ok, i can think of a number of reasons but i just figure that atkins works for him)....

i've been a jays fan forever and get to a pile of games...and i sort of figure since i pay their salary (including cable tv and internet thru my namesake) that i'm free to say what i want...cuz, nobody will cheer em more than me should i be wrong about the pimp....and lord, i hope i am....

and u betcha i'll be in dunnedin cheering em on, wearing my silly bluejays vest.....my first time and i'm keen....but that doesn't mean i can't take the mickey out of em....cuz lord knows they deserve it

anyway, keep up the great work with the page....serious kudos on it
regards, greg

No probs, Greg. Enjoy spring training -- we'll look for your vest on TV.

I'm with NFH and Magpie and the others who think Notfit Greggie has been to the Big Snit School of Juvenile "Humour". It simply isn't funny, Greggy-poo. Nobody except the handful of Terminal Adolescents on here thinks it's funny. There's lots of sites for 12-year-olds that would welcome you. This isn't one of them. When you learn to write like George Carlin, maybe you'll be funny. Maybe not.

All that said, Willy, Greg - I personally really appreciate your second post. It would have been very easy to throw your hands in the air and say "These guys are infringing on my right to speak in the space they provided, they must be NaziS!" and stomp off into the internet ether. I'm glad you didn't do that and look forward to your continued contributions.

Yes, me too, Mick. Greg's second post was made while I was reading the thread and writing my response; so I didn't see it, and wouldn't have written if I had seen it. I still stand by my response the the first post though. Sorry.

Willy,

Just how high is that horse that you're on?

Oh boy! Godwin's Law is again proven correct.

And that would mean that this thread is done.

Ah, you didn't read far enough. By Invocing the Godwin law it is guaranteed that the thread will continue.

I think some people here have to learn the meaning of the word satire.

When you learn to write like George Carlin, maybe you'll be funny. Maybe not.

I was about to take issue with this statement, but then I realized it's literally true. Something written by George Carlin might be funny. It might not.

Now, for something that would be funny... take down the following names. Pratchett. Wodehouse. Dennis Hensley. Westlake. Saki.

You'll thank me later.

Now, for something that would be funny... take down the following names

Add Sedaris to that list.

Mattthew--you're absolutely right. Wodehouse and Saki are two of the greats. (Much funnier than George Carlin, though he's very good on language, I think.)

Braden, (you're not one of the Terminal Adolescents, are you?) about this horse I'm on--it's reeelly high. Sometimes it gets scary up here, and lonely. But it's still not as high as Dudek's.

Sedaris is pretty good.

I like Carlin as a comedian, but I'm less enthusiastic about him as a writer.

Carlin is a comedic genius, but as a writer, he's awful. I take it back -- when he's writing his own material for standup, I guess he's pretty good. But his books? Pedestrian at best.

Carl Hiaasen, anyone?

A discussion about humour writers that doesn't mention Dave Barry? For shame!

Great thread. Greg, next time try it in Shakespearian sonnet format.
Iambic pentameter, 3 abab quatrains, and a punchy rhyming couplet at the end. You'd be surprised what you can get away with.
Or am I gonna have to be the first?

And let me also jump in and thank Greg for his second thread (is that facing the music like a man?). I din't think the first one worked as humour, but it's really really hard to write humour that works. On the page. It probably would have been much funnier as a standup routine.

It needed to be performed!

Westcoast Dude, we're waiting...

[/impatiently tapping foot]

So, Mike D., if you've stopped tapping your foot, does that mean you're done waiting?

A discussion about humour writers that doesn't mention Dave Barry? For shame!

Didn't he used to write for the Miami Herald? Then just flat out quit? Piker.

This is a real basic 14-line ABABABABABABCC sonnet, the meter isn't perfect, but what the hey ...

The Pimp and his Arse:
nunavut greggie's post as a Shakespearean Sonnet
This is your arse, This is a hole in the ground
The former is thine buttocks, upon which thou dost sit
The latter, like the place from which they took Saddam bound
Proving either place can be full of ... spit

Oh! Blue Jay EyeTalian Stallion, Jay Pea ...
Dost thou knowest the difference, firer of Buck?
I was your fan at first -- Moneyball, bay-bee!
Dost thou carest for the fans? Dost thou givest a ... pluck?

That first draft, you brought us Adams -- not Terry, but Russ
And yet we lag far behind even the lads of Tampa Bay
I must know, after even this short time, what was all the fuss?
If you can't even produce a team to beat a Devil Ray!

Oh! Pimp! I am no fair-weather fan of the team.
But hurry, Pimp! Deliver hope lest we run out of steam.

http://www.yorku.ca/harris/2220/4eyes.jpg
Wow.... Da Box needs an "All Time Posts" section, for posts like that. Well done Mick, you've earned a slow-clap AND a no prize. COMN.

Sorry, Mick, you lost me at "the meter isn't perfect."

Gitz, as one English major to another, let me say with heartfelt emotion, screwest thou.

Dost thou givest a...pluck

Brilliant, Mick. Can we do a BB emblem with this, or some variation, on it?

I'll second Jobu's slow clap. Nicely done. And here's the best part:

Out: Mick's days as a meter snob, lest the pot call the kettle black.

In: A return to untrammeled (and, occasionally, Trammelled) rhyming at Da Box!

I'll second Jobu's slow clap. Nicely done. And here's the best part:

Out: Mick's days as a meter snob, lest the pot call the kettle black.

In: A return to untrammeled (and, occasionally, Trammelled) rhyming at Da Box!

Bah.

In my haste to raise a tribute and toast
I made an embarrassing double post.

Out: Mick's days as a meter snob, lest the pot call the kettle black.

"Out! Out damn'd pot, out I say!"

wait, that was a *spot* ... and Shakesy preferred cauldrons as cookware, anyway ...

"Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and cauldron bubble."

It's feeling awfully MacBeth in here, but then this place IS full of drama queens. (myself included)

Sheesh, turn your back for a few minutes here and you never know what might happen. Mick's sonnet has left me ...well, at a loss for words. Love to hear about those English majors though--salt of the earth.

You are the salt of the earth ...
You are the salt of the earth!
But if that salt has lost its flavor
it ain't got much in its favor
You can't have that fault and be the salt of the earth ...

From Macbeth to Godspell ... Somebody STOP me!

Jobu and John Gizzi
What's the buzz
Tell me what's happening
Hang on Mick
We're gonna fight for you

Okay.. that was a pointless post.. but after Mick did that to Godspell, I couldn't help myself.

Well, since this turned into amateur poetry hour at Da Box... why not?

Two original poems that I actually got published in my high school year book (copyright Jospeh Buscemi)

Mike's Farm
The Cow Bursts Into Flames
I Climb The Tree
To Get A Better View

A Peculiar Day in the land of Narnia
Who ate the Nose of Life?
Well it shant be the King
And it shant be his Wife
Then it must be...
You guessed it...
Frank Stallone

Some friends and I played this game called "How bad does your poem have to be before Poetry.com rejects it?" If you search for Reynolds, Aaron at Poetry.com, you'll see the ones that made it through. (There are a number of Aaron Reynoldses, but I'm the one who wrote The Cow That Ate My Family.) I'm personally proudest of the one called Paranoid.

And for the record, they rejected this one:

You said you needed me
like you needed a kick in the head
Well baby, now you got both.

Baseball? Who needs baseball? Reading Aaron's rejected poem will give me mirth for days.

See? So much mirth from the last 20 or so posts and I'm already drunk with happiness. Gitx? Any clues on how one would pronounce that?

I read it as "Git-ex" sort of like INXS is "in excess," meaning it sort of sounds like a sales pitch for exstacy. (Or XTC, I guess).

Aaron, I loved it. Now I must be off to poetry.com.

And also, I have to try this.

Aaron, I have to say, "Ode To My Pants" was far, far worse than your rejected poem. In fact, I sort of like your rejected poem.

"The Cow That Ate My Family" was just funny.

ah, mick...now i see how it is done...

the sonnet is the thing

kudos

regards

Perfect, Mick. Enjoy the Florida sunshine, Greg.