Batter's Box Interactive Magazine - QPOTD: Well, You Can Call Me Jay, or You Can Call Me Ray ...

QPOTD: Well, You Can Call Me Jay, or You Can Call Me Ray ...

Rosterfarian Jonny German points out that when the Tampa Devil Rays of Anaheim (oh, wait ...) recently signed the formerly great Roberto Alomar, Bauxite Matthew E. wrote an interesting piece at Baseball Think Factory showing that the D-Rays now boast an all ex-Jays team. That is, players who played for the Jays before they played for Tampa. And a pretty good one (see inside for the full lineup), at that. That leads us to today's ...

Quirky Puzzle of the Day: What other franchises can trot out an all-ex-Jays lineup? Who has the best collection?

Note that players do not have to be products of the Toronto farm system to qualify, but they do have to have played for the Jays before the team in question. Example: Joe Carter qualifies as an Oriole and Giant Ex-Jay, but not as a Cub or Indian Ex-Jay. There's more inside ... go to it!

Fans of other clubs might try the exercise for another franchise; note all the ex-Rangers Doug Melvin is bringing to Milwaukee, for example. Need a little research help? Try this All My Exes Played for Texas Hall of Names thread from a while back and the Baseball Primer thread it spawned. Oh! And there's awesome "frivolity" at BBREF that can tell you quickly every player who ever played for any combination of teams (for instance, the 65 men who have been in the service of both the Blue Jays and Expos).

Now, as for the Tampa Bay X-Jay Machine:

C: Kevin Cash
1B: Fred McGriff
2B: Roberto Alomar
SS: Alex Gonzalez
3B: Miguel Cairo
LF: Jose Canseco
CF: Rich Butler
RF: Jose Cruz, Jr.
DH: Josh Phelps
P: Mark Hendrickson
P: Steve Parris
P: Juan Guzman

As Jonny wrote, "Given that the Tampa Bay franchise has only been in existence for 10 years, this is rather remarkable."

Don't think you have to come up with a full team ... just start one out and see if your fellow Boxers can help! For instance, the Rangers have Brad Fuller and Mike Young, but not the ethereal Stebby Loiaza.

Posted by Mick Doherty on Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:32 PM EST.

QPOTD: Well, You Can Call Me Jay, or You Can Call Me Ray ... | 109 comments | Create New Account

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

_Mick - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:43 AM EST (#2739) #

http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/multifranchise.cgi?level=franch&t1=MON&t2=TOR&t3=&t4=&exclusively=1&submit=Find+Players
And a bonus trivia question: only two players have played for both Montreal and Toronto and ONLY played for those two teams, to the exclusion of all other MLB franchises. Can you name them before you COMN for the answer?

_jsoh - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 01:02 AM EST (#2740) #

Oh wow. I didnt know BBRef could do that. Kewl.

This, of course, means that I'll now be spending the next 3 hours playing around online, rather than going to bed. Thanks Mick. Thanks a bunch.

(for the record - no. I couldnt name them, but I did recognize one name, but not the other)

_Rob - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 01:07 AM EST (#2741) #

Well, with little to no sleep in the last 48 hours, I'll guess Darrin Fletcher and...that's all I can think of. I know, weak.

(looking it up)

How about that...same reaction as jsoh: Recognized one name, but not the other.

Lucas - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 02:31 AM EST (#2742) #

The Ex-Jay Rangers:

C Geno Petralli
1B David Segui
2B Michael Young
3B Tom Evans
SS Manuel Lee
OF Ruben Sierra (Ranger to Jay to Ranger)
OF Cliff Johnson (Jay to Ranger to Jay, in less than one year)
OF Candy Maldonado

SP Todd Stottlemyre
SP Danny Darwin (Ranger to Jay to Ranger)
SP John Wasdin
SP Mike Morgan
RP Tom Henke (Ranger to Jay to Ranger)
RP Carlos Almanzar
RP Tim Crabtree
RP Greg Cadaret
RP Paul Mirabella

Meh.

Lucas - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 02:34 AM EST (#2743) #

Another trivia question:

Exactly one player active during 2004 has played for all four teams that currently comprise the Al West. Who?

_JackFoley - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 03:06 AM EST (#2744) #

Ex-Jay Braves

C Ernie Whitt
1B Fred McGriff
2B Damaso Garcia
3B Mike Sharperson
SS Luis Gomez
OF Otis Nixon
OF Dewayne Wise
OF Mark Whiten

SP Doyle Alexander
SP Jim Clancy
SP Phil Niekro
RP Tony Castillo
RP Jim Acker
RP Mark Eichhorn
RP Aaron Small
RP Juan Berenguer

Not a horrible team; solid three man rotation. I doubt any of them would mind.

_Joe C. in Buffa - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 07:42 AM EST (#2745) #

Lucas -- Mark McLemore
I know b/c I am a Mariner fan, as much as it hurts sometimes.

_Jonny German - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 08:34 AM EST (#2746) #

Rosterfarian

Cool... I got the best obscure adjective yet!

this is rather remarkarkable

I didn't write that!

Given that the Tampa Bay franchise has only been in existence for 10 years

Unfortunately I did write that and it's completely out to lunch... TBay has been in the league for 7 years. All the more remarkarkable that they have such a strong showing of ex-Jays, I suppose.

_Smirnoff - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 09:27 AM EST (#2747) #

Anyone else fascinated by how this Delgado negotiation is playing out? Seems like Sloane is doing his best Scott Boras impersonation. I was a little perturbed by the Jays offer to Delgado originally. But I'm really liking it more every day. Why start the bidding high when we knew we weren't gonna win the bidding? Might as well try to protect the market value of guys that could help us. Although in this case, it didn't really matter.

Named For Hank - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 09:45 AM EST (#2748) #

Reading that AP article from the weekend thread, I was thinking about something. I clearly recall J.P. Ricciardi saying at one point last season that if the Jays could re-sign Delgado that Delgado would be mostly DHing. I can't remember if that was in an article or maybe even at the Q&A at the Bradford book signing, but I remember it very strongly. Anybody else remember that?

Given that Texas are now out of the running because they wanted Delgado to DH 75% of the time, I think we can pretty easily say that there was no way we were going to see Delgado as a Jay in '05 regardless of money.

It will kill me to see Delgado as an Oriole. I was hoping he'd go to the Mets so I'd have someone to root for in the NL. (Not that I dislike the teams in the NL, I just don't know enough about any of them to care about what they're doing.)

_Matthew E - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 09:52 AM EST (#2749) #

It will kill me to see Delgado as an Oriole. I was hoping he'd go to the Mets so I'd have someone to root for in the NL. (Not that I dislike the teams in the NL, I just don't know enough about any of them to care about what they're doing.)

Same here.

_Mick - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 09:53 AM EST (#2750) #

I didn't write that!

Yes, you did ... it was in the e-mail you sent me. Maybe you cut and pasted it from the Matt E. article? Whatever ... nanny-nanny-boo-boo, you did TOO write it!

_Jonny German - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 10:04 AM EST (#2751) #

Mick, you oughta know I'm persnickety enough that I checked before saying that I didn't write that. I didn't! I said remarkable! Just one ark!

_Ryan C - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 10:09 AM EST (#2752) #

Tough to make sense of exactly what is going on in the Delgado negotiations. Some sources are saying it's down to the Mets and Marlins now, others say Marlins and Orioles. In some stories the Orioles have the best offer on the table and in others they haven't offered a fourth year which the Marlins have. Oh well whatever the case, Go Marlins!

_Mick - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 10:17 AM EST (#2753) #

EditCutPasteSaveClose ...

Jonny, I have no idea what you're talking about. But you ARE persnickickity!

_Matthew E - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 10:26 AM EST (#2754) #

Maybe you cut and pasted it from the Matt E. article?

Don't blame it on me. I said it was unususual.

_GeoffAtMac - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 11:01 AM EST (#2755) #

I would have said that the Mets have taken in a few of our good players over the years...

Roberto Alomar, Jeff Kent, Al Leiter, Derek Bell, David Cone (although he was originally a Met, he did go back to them in 2003), David Weathers Chris Woodward (just kidding on this last one)...

BTW I tried to restrict my selections to those who became Mets after they were Jays...otherwise there would be others, such as Mookie Wilson that would have to be added to the list.

_DeMarco - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 11:05 AM EST (#2756) #

I think Delgado will become a Marlin at some point this week, they have offered the best contract and are located very close to Delgado's home.

As for the Jays, are they done shopping for 2005? I thought JP wanted to add another starting pitcher, will this still happen or are the Jays just better off going with the guys they have, then make a move when the get a better sense of what their weaknesses are.

_Matthew E - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 11:43 AM EST (#2757) #

As for the Jays, are they done shopping for 2005?

My hunch is that the signings are done, but there could still be a trade. And if it's a big trade, there may be a signing or two after that to fill in holes.

_DaveInNYC - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 11:43 AM EST (#2758) #

Now Manaya is saying that the rumor from yesterday that the Mets dropped out for Delgado is false and the Mets are in fact still in the running for Carlos.

THE PLOT THICKENS!

_Smirnoff - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 11:45 AM EST (#2759) #

Yo Woody. The Mets/Delgado situation is just bizarre. There was a reported deadline that was apparently broken. I've never thought that the Mets would end up with Delgado and still think that Sloane is using them as leverage. You never know though. Money talks.

_SF - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 11:48 AM EST (#2760) #

Mick, you may call me anything, but you've still got to serve somebody. It may be the devil or it may be the lord, but you're going to have to serve somebody.

It may be Cecil Cooper, it may be some young jerk
You may punt and punt and call yourself Matt Turk
You may be mad or sad, You may be smart or dumb
You may be REO Speedwagon, Taking it on the Run

But Mick, you've still got to serve somebody. It may be the devil or it may be the lord, but you're going to have to serve somebody.

_SF - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:01 PM EST (#2761) #

This is more fun than I realized:

You may be an ambassador to the Batter's Box
You may like Moffat, you may like Grimlock
You may think Caino makes the most sense in the world
You may be Named for Hank, giving parenthood a whirl

But you've still gotta serve somebody
Yes Indeed, you've got to serve somebody
It may be Geoff Baker or it may be Jeff Blair
But you're going to have to serve somebody

You may be Robert Dudek, arguing full of rage
That 27 is the average for a ballplayer's peak age
You may believe in DIPS or some other OPS shit
They may call you Jordan, and they may call you Mick

But you've still gotta serve somebody
Yes Indeed, you've got to serve somebody
It may be Geoff Baker or it may be Jeff Blair
But you're going to have to serve somebody

_Jonny German - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:01 PM EST (#2762) #

No idea what inspired SF, but I still want a prize for saying: Bob Dylan!

_Jonny German - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:04 PM EST (#2763) #

Okay, I guess SF should get a prize too, for random brilliance.

_Fawaz K - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:04 PM EST (#2764) #

Such a Bland Boy, Dr. Prison Fence? where's the rage?

_Fawaz K - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:04 PM EST (#2765) #

No fair...

_Moffatt - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:09 PM EST (#2766) #

You may like me? How can you not like me? I'm this century's Dennis the Menace! :)

_SF - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:09 PM EST (#2767) #

You might be Coach Kent Williams, lecturing some young jerk
You might be going against big websites, doing yeoman's work
You may run Firefox, you may read Marty York
You may be hungry like Fawaz K, clutching the serving fork

But you've still gotta serve somebody
Yes Indeed, you've got to serve somebody
It may be Geoff Baker or it may be Jeff Blair
But you're going to have to serve somebody

Gitz - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:10 PM EST (#2768) #

Spencer Fordin, master linguist? A sports-writer with a gift for words, as opposed to a gift for grift? Random brilliance, indeed.

(On the other hand ... severe negative points for lodging the chorus "You take it on the run, baby" in my already random-thought over-loaeded brain.)

Mike D - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:13 PM EST (#2769) #

I'm this century's Dennis the Menace!

Can you really be charmingly incorrigible if you're self-avowedly charmingly incorrigible?

(Nice work, SF. The bar has been raised for my team previews.)

_SF - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:15 PM EST (#2770) #

You guys should hear the "album" of song parodies I did in high school. Let's just say kids from Long Island will never hear G&R's "Patience" quite the same way...

Gitz - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:16 PM EST (#2771) #

Mike D., you just reminded me of something I heard yesterday on -- sigh -- FOX. They were advertising some Super Bowl pre-game show (yipppppeeeee!), and the tag-line was "expect the unexpected." Maybe I'm missing something, but even if the "unexpected" does transpire, how can it really be "unexpected" if we were warned to expect it?

Mike D - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:20 PM EST (#2772) #

Mr. Gizzi, you just reminded me of the "NFL Playoffs" ads. I certainly enjoy the dramatic stylings of Don Cheadle as much as anybody...but who's the target market of the advertisement? How many fans are out there asking, "Hmm...the playoffs? I love football, but the playoffs? You know, maybe I will watch the playoffs this year."

Mike D - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:22 PM EST (#2773) #

Spencer, can you share some of the song titles (original and revised) from your Nassau (Suffolk?) County chartbuster?

_Mick - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:23 PM EST (#2774) #

Since it seems clear the Dr. Prison Fence deserves some sort of prize (though y'all should hear the Beatles knockoff I wrote for Marine Biology class in college, called "Kelp!") even though he rhymed my name with "shit" somehow, here is today's No-Prize. Not the book itself, Spencer, just a pretty photo of it:

Gitz - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:27 PM EST (#2775) #

Mike D., you remind me, I live in a shell, safe from the past, doing all right, but not very well ...

(Figure those lyrics out, Moffatt!)

In any event, perhaps you're confusing "advertising" with "marketing" or "public relations." It's all the same thing to a clueless Jack such as myself, though.

_SF - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:32 PM EST (#2776) #

Sure. There was only one true chart-topper.

That was "Constipation", sung to the tune of Patience. And yes, there was the inevitable: "Constipation -- ugh, yeah -- Oh yeah -- Little constipation, Yeah -- Some more constipation," elipsis, et cetera

There was also "Homosexuality", a take-off on Cult of Personality. It wasn't what you people may call PC these days. A random verse:

"Look in their eyes -- what do you see? Homosexuality.
Pull down their pants -- use Vasoline.
They jump right up and in between.
Oh, Homosexuality.
Like Liberace, Freddie Mercury
Homosexuality, Homoesexuality, Homosexuality"

How do you follow those acts? Very poorly. With "Every Little Test I Take", instead of Bobby Brown's "Every Little Step I Take." Also, "We Tried to Start a Fire", a Schreiber High name-dropping version of "We Didn't Start the Fire".

There were others, but those are the "best" of the bunch. I'm still convinced "Constipation" deserves major radio airplay, but the rest of the work hasn't aged well, I must admit.

Mike D - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:35 PM EST (#2777) #

perhaps you're confusing "advertising" with "marketing" or "public relations."

Yeah, I know. It was Example 3,140,103 of "thoughts only Mike D finds funny" here at Da Box.

Gitz - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:39 PM EST (#2778) #

Now, now, Mike. You know I find at least one percent of those thoughts funny, too.

_Mick - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:40 PM EST (#2779) #

In any event, perhaps you're confusing "advertising" with "marketing" or "public relations." It's all the same thing to a clueless Jack such as myself, though.

OK, now you're just intentionally trying to make my eye tic asplode. Gitz, you're a smart guy (or at least a clever one) ... the above smacks of "Vote for Nader. Democrats and Republicans are all the same, anyway." (I don't use that as an example to start a political flamefest, just as the most obviously similar "eh, it's all the same" deal.)

_G.T. - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:41 PM EST (#2780) #

How many fans are out there asking, "Hmm...the playoffs? I love football, but the playoffs? You know, maybe I will watch the playoffs this year."

Just speaking for myself here, but I'm kind of sick of seeing "boring" teams like the 16-2 Patriots and the 15-1 Eagles (I don't count those last two losses) play deep in the playoffs every year, and the thought of them playing each other doesn't interest me in the least. (Where's this "parity" I've been hearing so much about?!?!).

I'm actually thinking about just PVR-ing the game so I can fast-forward through the "action" and only watch the commercials.

Ads like the Cheadle ones do remind me that something truly memorable might make the game worth watching. Maybe those ads are for people like me (or die-hard fans of teams like the Seahawks or Chiefs who wouldn't have any particular rooting interest in the games...)

Named For Hank - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:41 PM EST (#2781) #

though y'all should hear the Beatles knockoff I wrote for Marine Biology class in college, called "Kelp!"

Little Theodore inspired a Beatle-rewrite the other day:

Stinky baby
What have you done...

It went downhill from there.

Gitz - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 12:50 PM EST (#2782) #

Actually, Mick, I was being honest: I don't know the difference between the three.

_Moffatt - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 01:02 PM EST (#2783) #

Have we already forgotten about Calle Johansson? Where's Mike Wilner when you need him?

Those Calle Johansson
Lighting up our lives
Those Calle Johansson
They were the stars in the sky

_Mick - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 01:07 PM EST (#2784) #

Gitz, I don't want to turn this thread into a miniseries or short course, and there are likely other marketing folks out there, so please feel free to jump in. If I could summarize it in two sentences:

"Advertising and Public Relations are both integral parts of the larger Marketing effort, which is all about point of sale and corporate brand management. Advertising is paid for; PR is earned."

That is oversimplifying along the lines of "Romeo Juliet: two kids meet, fall in love and die." But you get the idea.

Gitz - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 01:15 PM EST (#2785) #

"Romeo Juliet: two kids meet, fall in love and die." But you get the idea.

Well, thanks for ruining the plot for me, Mr. Killjoy. Next thing you'll tell me is that in "Titanic" the boat sinks.

_Moffatt - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 01:19 PM EST (#2786) #

Next thing you'll tell me is that in "Titanic" the boat sinks.

Not necessarily. It could be like that episode of Scooby Doo where they couldn't solve the mystery and the bad guy got away.

Umm.. nevermind.

_DeMarco - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 01:20 PM EST (#2787) #

Quick Poll: Who would you rather play first base for the Jays this year?

a) Eric Hinske
b) Frank Catalanatto
c) Shea Hillenbrand
d) Inanimate carbon rod

_Ryan C - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 01:24 PM EST (#2788) #

Quick Poll: Who would you rather play first base for the Jays this year?

That depends, what kind of salary does the inanimate carbon rod make?

_Mick - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 01:28 PM EST (#2789) #

Inanimate carbon rod

Nonononononono! Do you really want the inevitable "IC-Rod" nickname plaguing the TO media?

_Rob - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 01:33 PM EST (#2790) #

http://digamma.net/btfwiki/index.php/ICR
Do you really want the inevitable "IC-Rod" nickname plaguing the TO media?

It's already taken by Yankee fans over at BTF. COMN.

_DeMarco - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 01:34 PM EST (#2791) #

I would still like to see Hinske traded at some point, but give him a shot at having early season success so that his market value improves. Then start Hillenbrand at first, and have a three way rotation in leftfield/DH of Gabe Gross/Reed Johnson/Frank Catalanotto - with Reed Johnson getting the least amount of playing time.

_jsoh - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 01:43 PM EST (#2792) #

Quick Poll: Who would you rather play first base for the Jays this year?

e) Me.

I can really pick it, will cost significantly less than even the ICR, and provide almost as much offense - tho much of that will be tied up in my freakishly small strike zone.

Given that JP hasnt returned my calls, I'll go with Hinske. By all accounts, Shea's defence leaves much to be desired, and I seem to recall Cat saying he's not comfortable over there.

_DeMarco - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 01:54 PM EST (#2793) #

I'll go with Hinske. By all accounts, Shea's defence leaves much to be desired

Although I don't know much about Hillenbrands defensive skills, he would have to be pretty bad to prefer Hinske at that position. I mean, Hinske has never even played first base at the major league level, and the position he did play was definitely not a stellar performances.

_Four Seamer - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 02:07 PM EST (#2794) #

I mean, Hinske has never even played first base at the major league level, and the position he did play was definitely not a stellar performances.

Defensively, I think Hinske will be more than adequate at first base. As a third baseman, he was excellent with the glove and his lateral movement was pretty decent. Given that he will have both more reaction time at first base, and less ground to cover given Hudson's range, I think he will be fine. Bear in mind that most of his deficiencies defensively were related to his inability to make the throw across the diamond in a consistently timely and accurate manner; he won't have that to worry about at first base.

_Lefty - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 02:18 PM EST (#2795) #

Hinske will not have to throw as often but he still has to throw to second clearing the base runner for the double play. Occasionally he'll be throwing to third.

Whereas his muffed throws to first allowed a baserunner and extended an inning, now his throws could result in runs scored.

So he'd better be able to throw.

I think he will, as the season progressed he was getting better at it. Might be his confidence more than mechanics.

Gitz - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 02:23 PM EST (#2796) #

I bet a first baseman throws to third no more than 10 times a year, if that. And of those 10, how many will go astray? One? Hinkse won't cost them any more runs at first defensively than he did at third.

If Hinske keeps travelling the Ben Grieve Career Path, though, that is more worrisome.

_DeMarco - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 02:24 PM EST (#2797) #

Bear in mind that most of his deficiencies defensively were related to his inability to make the throw across the diamond in a consistently timely and accurate manner;

Is this a fact or just an opinion? I just seem to remember Hinske dropping a lot of balls that were hit right at him, and thinking he has no range. I am very concerned about his defense at first, especially whether or not he can dig balls out of the dirt.

_Caino - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 02:24 PM EST (#2798) #

http://www.athleticsnation.com/
Slow news day it seems apart from the Delgado Saga. Hopefully that turns out for the best, I.E. Delgado not in the AL East.

If your looking for a good read, part two of Billy Beane's interview with Athletics Nation is up.

P.S. When is J.P. going to do another interview with the Box?

_DeMarco - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 02:31 PM EST (#2799) #

Hinkse won't cost them any more runs at first defensively than he did at third.

I disagree, if he can't catch bad throws from his infielders, he has the potential to cause more harm at first than third.

_G.T. - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 02:33 PM EST (#2800) #

Well, thanks for ruining the plot for me, Mr. Killjoy. Next thing you'll tell me is that in "Titanic" the boat sinks.

Did anyone else's hometown newspaper run an article this weekend that completely spoils a late plot development in Million Dollar Baby? I couldn't believe it... the Ottawa Citizen ran a "teaser" on the front page which somewhat spoils the movie, but the Title of the article (which I happened to see while flipping through the front section) seems to spoil it in even greater detail!

The movie hasn't even opened in Ottawa yet, and they go and run that... I don't know why I subscribe to that rag. Idiots. (Them, and me). (The worst thing is that it seemed like it'd be an interesting article to read, and it could've been printed without referencing the film).

As for the QOD, think it'd be hard to beat the Yanks-Jays:

SP Clemens
SP Niekro
SP Cone
SP Key
SP Wells

RP Righetti
RP Quantrill
RP Leiter
RP Candelaria
RP Lilly

C Stanley
1B Olerud
2B Kelly
3B Sojo
SS Fernandez
OF Rickey
OF Canseco
OF Barfield
DH Winfield/Fielder/Mayberry

2B and 3B are kind of weak, but 1200+ wins from a starting five? Not too shabby...

_Four Seamer - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 02:38 PM EST (#2801) #

Bear in mind that most of his deficiencies defensively were related to his inability to make the throw across the diamond in a consistently timely and accurate manner;

Is this a fact or just an opinion? I just seem to remember Hinske dropping a lot of balls that were hit right at him, and thinking he has no range. I am very concerned about his defense at first, especially whether or not he can dig balls out of the dirt.

Well, it's all opinion since I'm working from my memories of his three years in action. I suppose there may be statistical data to back it up, but I'm content to trust my eyes here. A first baseman only needs to block the ball, since he has all sorts of time to pick it up and make the play himself or toss it to the pitcher covering. Where he got into trouble at third was when he would have to rush his throw to compensate for bobble. His range is suspect, admittedly, but his reaction time is quite good - witness the plays he makes in the air or stretched out to his left or right.

As for his ability to pick balls out of the dirt, he'll have better infielders to work with than Delgado did, so that alone should yield an improvement. I think some intensive work with Brian Butterfield should remedy any residual concerns.

_G.T. - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 02:43 PM EST (#2802) #

Hmmm... guess I missed the part about playing for the Jays first. Scrap Niekro, Rickey, Stanley, Winfield, et. al. Still, Clemens/Cone/Key/Wells/L*****a seems like a decent start... Olerud/Fernandez/Canseco/Barfield/Fielder...

Named For Hank - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 02:45 PM EST (#2803) #

Roger Ebert says that the reviews spoiling late plot developments in Million Dollar Baby (which I was supposed to go see the night Theo was born, so I haven't seen it yet) are an attempt to harm the film's box office and Oscar chances. He specifically refers to a Michael Medved review.

_G.T. - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 02:56 PM EST (#2804) #

Could be, NFH, though this wasn't an review, and didn't appear in the Entertainment section. Rather, it was a news article discussing a topic that appears in the movie -- a topic one would not think would be relevant to the movie. Knowing that this topic does become relevant will certainly affect how I will think things turn out when I do see it...

I don't think this spoiler can compare to the one revealed with Jaye Davidson's Crying Game Oscar nom., but it is something that most reviewers seem to be trying to gently hint at, if they discuss it at all.

_Tucker - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 02:58 PM EST (#2805) #

I think I can name three former Jays/Expos. Mitch Webster, Darrin Fletcher and Tony Bautista. Probably more, but thats what I came up with. Check Omar Daal, not sure he pitched for the Expos thou?

_Tucker - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 02:59 PM EST (#2806) #

Batista, I can't spell either.

_DeMarco - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 03:11 PM EST (#2807) #

My curiosity got the best of me and I had to look up the Million dollar babies story. I was surprised at the twist, you would never get that from the promo's for the movie. I don't think that knowing this info really ruins the movie for me though.

_Magpie - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 03:56 PM EST (#2808) #

Last year Hinske had 3 throwing errors and 5 fielding errors.

This is subjective, but as I recall Hinske's problem throws tended to happen when he had time to make them. When he had to move to field the ball, come up, and throw in a hurry, he was fine. It was the hard grounder straight at him that always frightened me. When he had all the time in the world to make the throw. He'd straighten up, look across the diamond, count the seams, hope for luck, and throw the ball somewhere over Delgado's head.

Happily, that won't happen at 1B - a first baseman doesn't have simple throws. He makes unusual throws. There are the infrequent tosses to 3B or home, of course, but most often, he is rushing a throw to 2B to get a runner, usually after having to take a few steps into the field so that he has a clear throwing lane. Those... I think Hinske can handle.

_Four Seamer - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 04:16 PM EST (#2809) #

You may be right, Magpie. A lot of his throwing errors did come out of nowhere, on seemingly routine plays. In any event, I stand by my belief that his throwing woes, such as they are, will be a relative non-issue at first base. It's not like he's replacing a Gold Glover over there, either.

_Moffatt - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 04:20 PM EST (#2810) #

Also keep in mind that a third baseman with below-average range is going to likely have above-average range if compared to first sackers. I can't see Hinske having less range than, say, Delgado, or Thome, or Hatteberg, etc.

_Jobu - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 04:22 PM EST (#2811) #

http://www.bluejayscheerclub.com
Did anyone mention that Hinske orginaly came up the system as a 1B? That should be fairly encouraging.... am I right guys?.... guys.... (tumbleweed)..... where ya goin.....call ya later?

_Lefty - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 04:25 PM EST (#2812) #

Sitting at home with a broken ankle for a while. Has anyone read Faithful, Stephen Kings co-authored account of the Red Sox breaking of "the curse"?

Is it any good?

Mike Green - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 04:27 PM EST (#2813) #

Hinske's throwing accuracy improved noticeably last year. He still had trouble getting rid of the ball quickly enough on the DP, but it was better than previously. His range to his left continued to be an issue, pushing his zone rating down.

This year at first, with Hudson, Adams and Koskie all possessing pretty good range to their left, it might make sense to keep Hinske closer to the line than you would normally do, and adjust the positioning of the other infielders a little bit to account for it. I'm not worried about the infield defence as a whole.

Actually, I agree with JP that defence will be a strength with this club. If they find a way to get Gross out in left-field, the defence should be very good overall.

_Moffatt - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 04:30 PM EST (#2814) #

When Reed Johnson is in left, the Jays very well could be the best defensive club in the majors.

_Jonny German - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 04:36 PM EST (#2815) #

I'll buy that if Johnny McD is playing short. Not that I want Johnny McD playing much at all.

_Jobu - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 04:40 PM EST (#2816) #

http://www.bluejayscheerclub.com
I'll buy that if Johnny McD is playing short. Not that I want Johnny McD playing much at all.

Imagine if we still had Cash on the team? That's a SPICY defensive meatball.

_Moffatt - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 04:45 PM EST (#2817) #

I'll buy that if Johnny McD is playing short. Not that I want Johnny McD playing much at all.

Even if it's Adams, I don't see too many better. Last year's Dodgers would have been better, but they've overhauled their infield, and now it's a lot weaker on D.

I can't really come up with anyone better, other than maybe the Cardinals. But with Eckstein at short, I'm not so sure. Anyone willing to throw out some candidates?

Pistol - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 04:45 PM EST (#2818) #

When Reed Johnson is in left, the Jays very well could be the best defensive club in the majors.

Damn, they had to go and trade Cash!

_Moffatt - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 04:49 PM EST (#2819) #

To throw some data on the discussion, here were the Top 10 teams in defensive efficiency last season, according to BP:

1. L.A. (.7147)
2. St. Louis (.7126)
3. Philly (.7040)
4. Florida (.7033)
5. Tampa Bay (.7013)
6. Seattle (.7009)
7. Oakland (.6982)
8. Cubs (.6980)
9. Mets (.6964)
10. Montreal (.6964)
15. TORONTO (.6934) (6th of 14 in the AL)

Gitz - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 04:51 PM EST (#2820) #

If the A's get Cameron, it's pretty safe to say they're going to be a top-three defensive club, even with Ginter/Ellis at 2B.

Gitz - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 04:52 PM EST (#2821) #

Also ... the Jays need a good "D." Their offense, as we've been discussing, ain't so great.

_Mick - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 04:54 PM EST (#2822) #

Jamey Newberg reports speculation that if the Mets sign Delgado, the Rangers could be in on Cameron. He'd be the first legitimate CF in the history of the franchise.

_Fozzy - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 04:59 PM EST (#2823) #

When you consider Dave Berg playing in left field, Josh Phelps at first and the adventures behind the plate with revolving door catchers, that ain't not too bad Mr. Moffatt.

_Magpie - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 05:01 PM EST (#2824) #

You may be a rich man, with a fancy suit and hat
You may teach us economy, like Professor Mo Phatt
You may be on the corner, begging for dollars and cents
Ranting and a-raving just like Dr Prison Fence

But you're gonna have to serve somebody
Gonna have to serve somebody
It could be a summons, it could be a drink
But you're gonna have to serve somebody

Soon I think...

song parodies I did in high school.

You too? (Didn't we all.) Once again, I show my advanced age, but I can never listen to "House of the Rising Sun" without remembering what we did to it.

It was called "House of Old Marlene" and that's about all I dare to repeat.

Gitz - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 05:01 PM EST (#2825) #

To be fair, Tom Goodwin, while he couldn't hit, could play a decent CF, even though his throwing arm rivals that of Shannon Stewart. Well, OK, that's glib.

_Magpie - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 05:07 PM EST (#2826) #

He'd be the first legitimate CF in the history of the franchise.

Where's the love for Oddibe McDowell?

the Top 10 teams in defensive efficiency last season

The first thing I notice is that the Dodgers had Izturis at short and another SS playing 2B; the Cardinals had Rolen and Renteria on the left side of their infield.

Tampa Bay's infield didn't look that impressive, but they did had that outfield that basically ran down everything in the air between the infield and the fence.

Gerry - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 05:14 PM EST (#2827) #

Has anyone read Faithful, Stephen Kings co-authored account of the Red Sox breaking of "the curse"?

I have NOT read it but most reviews I have seen are not favourable. There is no real insider access, it is two guys watching from the stands, and on their TV's, and writing about the highs and lows of following the Sox. I am not setting out to buy it.

_Moffatt - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 05:15 PM EST (#2828) #

Well, Tampa did trot out the following every day lineup

C Toby Hall
1B Tino Martinez
2B Rey Sanchez
SS Julio Lugo
3B Aubrey Huff
LF Carl Crawford
CF Rocco Baldelli
RF Jose Cruz Jr.

The only guy on there that I would say is below-average defensively is Huff. The rest are all average and above. In some case quite a bit above.

Of course, the team also went 70-91.

_Jobu - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 05:31 PM EST (#2829) #

http://www.battersbox.ca/archives/00002431#2431251
Of course, the team also went 70-91.

Hopefuly this year we can take back the Grecian Wind Trophy. (COMN)

_Lefty - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 05:50 PM EST (#2830) #

Thanks Gerry, maybe I'll steer clear of it and stick to maritime novels.

Seattle and Montreal in the top ten defensive clubs finished last in their divisions. The Mets 71 - 91 had a similar record to Tampa.

So four of the ten top defensive clubs had abysmal seasons. Mind you none of those teams last season had a potential staff as good as the Jays do entering this campaign. Though on the basis of the 04 staff on paper, perhaps the Mariners could have made an arguement.

_SF - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 05:52 PM EST (#2831) #

By the by -- it wasn't so random. The title of this thread is a near-quote from "Gotta Serve Somebody." He definitely says, "You may call me Ray"

Craig B - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 06:38 PM EST (#2832) #

It's also the catchphrase of "Raymond J. Johnson" on the Redd Foxx show, who was played by Bill Saluga.

_Mick - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 07:24 PM EST (#2833) #

Craig is on point, though I never would have recalled the name of the comic. Given we were talking about the Rays and Jays in the original Quirky Puzzle of the Day, here is the full text of what set off the headline idea (Sorry, Dr. Ford ... I admit I was baffled by your post until Mike and Jonny gave me a heads up via e-mail. Fortunately, "baffle" is one of my favourite words in the English language, and now I've had an excuse to write it twice!_

"Oh, you doesn't has to call me Johnson. You can call me Ray, or you can call me Jay, or you can call me Johnny, or you can call me Sonny, or you can call me RayJay, or you can call me RJ, or you can call me RJJ or you can call me RJJ Jr., but you doesn't have to call me Johnson!"

FWIW, the next Hall of Names team is the All-Johnsons (keep your fifth grade giggles to yourselves!) which is looking like it would beat the living snot out of last week's Smiths or Joneses.

_Braby21 - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 07:36 PM EST (#2834) #

I'm not too sure why everyone is so high on Cash's defense. His arm is obviously one of the best out there, but as far as blocking balls in the dirt, he was horrible. He would just stab at the ball and never try to get in front of it. I also remember hating when he NEVER dropped his mask while running after the balls that he forgot to block.

Anyways...I feel that Zaun is 10 times better behind there than Cash. He blocks everything in the dirt, and does the best job of blocking runners off of the plate that I've ever seen. Half of Rios' assists last year can be credited to Zaun. Also Zaun calls a much better game than Cash, which I would say would be included in defense.

_SF - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 08:01 PM EST (#2835) #

Sweet. You just explained an entire verse of a Dylan song to me, and it's 100 percent irrefutable. That's fantastic. That's the best (first?) thing I've learned on Batter's Box.

_Keith Talent - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 08:14 PM EST (#2836) #

IMO, the Delgado negotiations resemble Costanza's negotiations with NBC on Seinfeld.

"He said 'to hell with them!'."

_Vernons Biggest - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 08:31 PM EST (#2837) #

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/tor/news/tor_news.jsp?ymd=20050122&content_id=933507&vkey=news_tor&fext=.jsp
New mailbag's up. COMN.

_Rob - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 09:00 PM EST (#2838) #

This news didn't get the banner headlines, but it's been a done deal for quite some time. The Blue Jays tabbed ex-big leaguer Mickey Brantley to coach first base, closing out their coaching staff.

From Fordin's mailbag.

Pistol - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 09:00 PM EST (#2839) #

Hey, Mike Tyson made the mailbag........

_Dan Julien - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 09:32 PM EST (#2840) #

Sitting at home with a broken ankle for a while. Has anyone read Faithful, Stephen Kings co-authored account of the Red Sox breaking of "the curse"?

Is it any good?
Sorry for the late response Lefty, but I've started reading it in my continuing quest for baseball knowledge. I'm only into May, but it's not a great book, leaves a lot to be desired, I'll keep you posted because maybe July(Nomar trade...) will be more interesting.

Depending on what you want to read, there's a lot of good recent baseball books. Paths of Glory I just finished and was a great read about SABR statistics being put to evaluate the construction of great teams throughout baseball history.

I should write some book reports up for this website, I've read so much lately...

_John Northey - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 10:07 PM EST (#2841) #

Thinking about ex-Jays I thought, which was the biggest to get away? Checking the Lahman database for stats after they spent time in Toronto but not counting return trips (ala Tony Fernandez).

The 1000 hits post life as a Jay club...
1950 McGriff
1837 Kent
1395 Alomar
1279 Olerud
1219 Derek Bell
1190 Fielder

150+ HR club
368 Fred McGriff
291 Jeff Kent
288 Cecil Fielder
170 Glenallen Hill
162 Shawn Green

100+ SB's
311 Rickey Henderson
178 Roberto Alomar
160 Derek Bell
160 Mitch Webster
111 Alfredo Griffin
108 Bobby Brown

1000+ RBI
1245 Fred McGriff
1157 Jeff Kent

300 Avg (20+ hits) - Chris Latham is 2 for 2
312 Shannon Stewart
312 Paul Molitor
309 David Segui
303 Josh Phelps
302 Roberto Alomar

Only John Olerud has a 400+ OBP at 402 while just Phelps cracked 600 in Slg% at 643

All-Stars (150 or more games played)
1B: Fred McGriff: 286/373/557
John Olerud: 296/402/493
2B: Roberto Alomar: 302/377/491
Jeff Kent: 292/354/555
3B: Ed Sprague: 252/329/481
SS: Tony Fernandez: 269/336/385
LF: Shannon Stewart: 312/382/483
CF: Devon White: 271/333/465
RF: Shawn Green: 280/366/563
CA: Benito Santiago: 268/312/434
DH: Jose Canseco: 265/371/567
David Segui: 309/381/494
UT: Ryan Freel: 279/369/393 (played everywhere almost)

Note: After Tony Fernandez, Manny Lee is probably the best with the bat at shortstop (never thought I'd type anything good about Lee's bat).
Manuel Lee: 257/313/329
Cesar Izturis: 261/294/342
Alfredo Griffin: 250/290/315

Anyone wanting to chase down ex-Jay pitching?

_David Wang - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 10:36 PM EST (#2842) #

Hey John, I don't remember if anyone said this in the defence thread, but what about Mike Matheny, he was a gold glover over in St.Louis, never seen him play in a Jays uniform, but I think he was pretty good.

_John Northey - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 11:11 PM EST (#2843) #

Ick. Never cared much for Matheny. Since he left TO he has made all-star teams and got a big contract or two. However, his hitting is in ex-shortshop territory at 245/304/354. Better than Kevin Cash, but still not good enough for more than a backup role imo.

_John Northey - Monday, January 24 2005 @ 11:24 PM EST (#2844) #

ExJay pitching...

1500+ IP...
2487 Mike Morgan
1874 David Wells
1727 Al Leiter
1501 David Cone

100+ Wins...
132 Mike Morgan
128 David Wells
122 Al Leiter
101 David Cone
95 Roger Clemens (will crack 100 in 2005)

20+ saves...
91 Tom Henke
89 Jim Gott
65 Mike Timlin
63 Billy Koch
35 Xavier Hernandez
32 Juan Berenguer
28 Victor Cruz

Sub 3 ERA (50+ IP)
2.58 Dyar Miller
2.75 Tom Henke
2.95 Doug Bair
2.96 Mark Eichhorn (393 IP)
2.97 Tom Bruno

Flip side... 6+ ERA (50+ IP)
8.10 Edwin Hurtado
6.94 Paul Spoljaric
6.89 Dave Stewart
6.78 John Wasdin
6.53 Jose Nunez

Only Morgan has lost over 90 games at 159 (!)

All-Stars... (W-L ERA)
Starters...
122-88 3.44 Al Leiter
79-57 3.51 Pete Vuckovich
70-36 3.67 Jimmy Key
101-69 3.77 David Cone
95-40 3.81 Roger Clemens

Bullpen... (W-L-Sv ERA)
9-12-91 2.75 Tom Henke
19-24-17 2.96 Mark Eichhorn
35-44-89 3.51 Jim Gott
11-20-28 3.38 Victor Cruz
33-37-65 3.60 Mike Timlin

Lots of good pitchers have left over the years eh?

_Matthew E - Tuesday, January 25 2005 @ 09:32 AM EST (#2845) #

Has anyone read Faithful, Stephen Kings co-authored account of the Red Sox breaking of "the curse"?

I read it. It was pretty okay. You really have to care about the Red Sox to appreciate it fully, though; there's a lot of play-by-play and game-by-game description. I'm glad I read it and glad I didn't buy it.

Craig B - Tuesday, January 25 2005 @ 03:24 PM EST (#2846) #

That's the best (first?) thing I've learned on Batter's Box

Now if only you can return the favour, we'll all be happy. :)

_Matthew E - Tuesday, January 25 2005 @ 07:33 PM EST (#2847) #

Marlin ex-Jays:

C: Sandy Martinez
1B: Carlos Delgado
2B: Homer Bush
3B: Randy Knorr (moved from C)
SS: Eddie Zosky
OF: Chad Mottola
OF: Junior Felix
OF: Devon White
SP: Al Leiter
RP: Luis Aquino, Billy Koch, Dave Weathers, Aaron Small, Graeme Lloyd

Not irretrievably terrible.

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