With apologies to the mascot with the abnormally large stitched head, Mr. Met almost has to be Tom Seaver.

Mr. Devil Ray? Probably former Jay Fred McGriff.

Is Junior Griffey still Mr. Mariner? And is Pete Rose banned from being Mr. Red?

Mr. Padre - Tony Gwynn
Mr. Cardinal - Stan Musial

Mick - Maybe Rose is banned for being Mr Red, but seriously Larkin has that title if rose doesnt.

If someone is Mr. Marlin... speak up!

I'd think Jeff Conine was Mr. Marlin?

Rose and Larkin both have the added benefit of actually being born and raised in Cincinnati.

Here's an Eye Magazine piece on Corey Koskie. But then, we knew he was a good guy.

Mr. Giant is Willie Mays. Now that was easy.
Mr. Rockie is Todd Helton perhaps. Sorry that I can't work up a little more excitement.

Mr. Diamondback has to be Randy Johnson, no doubt about that unless you are a Gonzalaz man.

I think I'm off the mark but anyways, if Delgado signs a one year deal with the Marlins for let's say 11 million, and has a year similiar to 2004, could the Jays be in the running to sign him again in 2006, giving the market is reasonable and within the Jay's pricerange. Then again, I may just be thinking too good a thought.

Mr. Rocky has to be Larry Walker.

Mr. Oriole, Cal Ripken Jr.

I was thinking about that too Vernon, but Jim Palmer who pitched 19 Seasons might give Ripkin a run.

Mr Tiger, Hank Greenberg
Mr Expo.....hm, tough one...Tim Raines?

Yea, almost 20 years of service has gotta have an impact on a club.

These are all debateable as my baseball knowledge before about 1980 is extremely limited, but anyway:

Mr Diamondback - Randy Johnson
Mr Dodger (LA version) - Orel Hershisher
Mr Brewer - Molitor or Yount
Mr Red Sox - Wade Boggs
Mr Oriole - Cal Ripken Jr.
Mr Twin - Kirby Puckett
Mr Royal - George Brett Saberhagen

Maybe because Im too close but I find it rather difficult to narrow down a pick for Mr Blue Jay or Mr Expo.

NYY DiMaggio
BOS Yaz
BAL Ripken
TB McGriff
TOR Delgado

ATL Aaron
PHI Schmidt
FLA Conine
NYM Seaver
MON Raines

MIN Puckett
CWS Thomas
CLE Feller
DET Cobb
KC Brett

STL Musial
HOU Biggio/Bagwell
CHC Banks
CIN Rose
PIT Stargell
MIL Molitor

ANA Finley
OAK Eck
TEX Raffy
SEA Edgar

LA Garvey
SF Mays
SD Gwynn
COL Walker
ARI Gonzalez

Sure, let's play:

Mr Oriole - Brooks Robinson
Mr Royal - George Brett

Sometimes it's easy. But who is Mr Texas Ranger?

Rotoworld is reporting that Kevin Millwood has signed with Cleveland for 1 year at $7 million, but only $3 million is guaranteed.

Saddly, I believe the real "Mr. Blue Jay" passed away this year. RIP Bobby.

Italics and Season From Hell begone!

Good work, Geoff, going through every team. Now Let's Quibble!

Boston - Teddy
White Sox - Appling or Aparicio
Tigers - Kaline
Pirates - Wagner or Clemente
Milwaukee - Yount
Anaheim - Ryan
Oakland - Reggie
LA Dodgers - Koufax

Mr. Met - Mr. Met

Funny, there was a discussion on Primer ridiculing how people get all misty-eyed about guys who play for a single team for their whole career, but it matters, at least to me, in these types of discussions.

Mr. Mariner - Edgar Martinez
Mr. Red Sox - Ted Williams
Mr. Blue Jay - Dave Stieb, with apologies to Carlos
Mr. Padre - Tony Gwynn
Mr. Dodger - Tommy Lasorda, his 13 innings played in Brooklynis enough for me

I definitely don't speak for a fan of the Expos, but I'd like to think that the one guy who was there thick and thin, and who would deserve this title is Youppi!.

I was going to say,
Mr Blue Jay == Tom Cheek...

but Boddy Mattox was a good call Jobu...

maybe Bobby was "Grandpa Blue Jay"??

OK - do they have to be unformed personnel? I mean, everybody knows that Mr Angel is Gene Autry because... well, most of the actual players weren't much good anyway, most of the time.

And what about franchises, which used to move more often than players? Mr Mack is Mr A, although he died long before they made it to Oakland.

We need a ruling!

Chicago Whales - Dutch Zwilling
Cleveland Spiders - Jesse Burkett
Hartford Dark Blues - Bob Ferguson
Louisville Colonels - Pete Browning
Worcester Ruby Legs - Lee Richmond

That's a good point Daryn. Depending on the "Magpie Ruling" it's a close Cheek/Mattick race for the title.

Although if Koskie retires here, puts up some decent numbers along the way, and moves into front office somehow he could have a shot. Toronto loves a "good Canadian kid".

Jesse Burkett is worthy, but after their final season don't you think the title of "Mr Cleveland Spider" is one that people want to avoid? At all costs?

Wouldn't it be more fun to come up with the one player who symbolizes, not everything historic and memorable about the franchise, but the one guy who symbolizes everything that team would rather forget?

Mr Anti-Yankee - Dooley Womack

Or the one player who symbolizes everything that the team really stands for, rather than what they wish they stood for:

Mr Real-Yankee - Alex Rodriguez

Three nominees for Mr. Tiger already -- Greenberg, Cobb and Kaline; I'd probably go with Kaline, but think a guy who was a World Series MVP, the greatest shortstop in the team's history AND the team's manager later deserves consideration. Alan Trammell, Mr. Tiger?

Magpie, I was going to suggest Ryan as Mr. Ranger, but can he hold that for two teams? Besides, Pudge Rodriguez might be a better Mr. Ranger. Plameiro, as Geoff suggested, is a possibility -- but in that same vein, Kenny Rogers? The guys who keep coming back to Arlington?

The interesting thing about Geoff's list is that every single player on it is either active or in the Hall of Fame.

And it's not necessarily going to be a player, I guess ... couldn't Mr. Cardinal be Jack Buck? (Admittedly, also a Hall of Famer.)

Maybe we should also make allowances for Mr. Philadelphia A (Mack) and Mr. Oakland A (Jackson?) while just admitting there was no Mr. Kansas City A -- and similar allowances for other franchises that move.

Is Cris Guzman Mr. National?

Mr Kansas City A... gosh.

The team that never had a winning season.

The team that seldom had a winning month

First guy I think of is Norm Siebern.

Some other defunct franchises, and related fine tunings:

Mr Senator I - Walter Johnson
Mr Senator II - Frank Howard
Mr Brave (Boston) - Spahn?
Mr Brave (Milwaukee) - Aaron
Mr Brave (Atlanta) - Bobby Cox, with apologies to Dale Murphy.

And finally,

Mr St Louis Brown - Eddie!

http://www.mathesond.mindsay.com
Mr. Expo - Rusty Staub or Floyd Youmans

The Marlins are talking about getting rid of Burnett and Encarnacion(who I know is a waste) to free up 8.5 mill to make a run at Delgado. I'd love to have Burnett, but Encarnacion is trash.

there was a discussion on Primer ridiculing how people get all misty-eyed about guys who play for a single team for their whole career

Tyler, I would never ridicule anybody for feeling nostalgic about that, but the thing is - it never happened. Those types of players have always been very rare. The fact is, they have been just as many in the last thirty years as they were in the thirty years before.

So it's just a club that misinformed sportswriters use to beat the players with. Mr Griffin? I'm talking to you.

Nolan Ryan is probably still Mr. Ranger despite pitching for them for only four years. Maybe Pudge has supplanted him. Raffy might be third; both of his five-year tenures with Texas ended with bitterness and (mostly on his part).

Some fans who've been around since the Dark Ages might vote for Jim Sundberg.

Mr. Seattle Pilot: Jim Bouton? Ray Oyler?

Mr Seattle Pilot - Joe Schultz, by a landslide! Pound that Budweiser.

Those guys were all so memorable: Brabender and Hovley and Steve ("my arm's fine") Barber. Are all bad teams that much fun?

I seriously doubt it.

Tyler, I would never ridicule anybody for feeling nostalgic about that, but the thing is - it never happened. Those types of players have always been very rare. The fact is, they have been just as many in the last thirty years as they were in the thirty years before.

I was young and naive enough to believe all the talk during Bench and Yaz's last season that, in the era of Agency we'd never see guys who'd play their entire career with one team, like those two future HOFers.

Of course I heard the same things said a few years later when Yount and Brett retired in the same year... then again about Ripken and Gwynn (it seemed REALLY overdone that year). Fun stuff...

Actually what's changed about one-team players is that it used to be reserved for great players. You had to be Gehrig or Clemente or Koufax. Or something like that.

Now... never mind Tony Gwynn and Cal Ripken. Or even Frank White and Lou Whitaker. How about Jim Gantner and Ron Oester?

How about Tom Pagnozzi?

Never would have happened fifty years ago.

Are all bad teams that much fun?

I give you Mr. Met - Marv Throneberry. Honourable mention goes to the Ol' Perfessor

And for that, I blame... well, the Ten and Five rule.

And the money! Now when guys get released by the team they've played all their careers for, they're just as likely to say "Ah to hell with it. I can retire" instead of trying to catch on somewhere else.

Incidentally, the KC A's had some talent in the late 50s. The '58 squad featured Ralph Terry, Virgil Trucks (ancient but still game), Roger Maris, Hector Lopez, and Bob Cerv, ALL of whom were eventually traded to the Yankees. There's probably others I've left off.

Oh the Mets, the Mets...

Poor Casey.

"I got a kid here, Jesse Gonder, he's twenty years old, and in ten years he's got a chance to be thirty."

Or Roger Angell on Choo-Choo Coleman "He is quick on the basepaths, but this is about as essential to being a catcher as neat handwriting."

Tyler, I would never ridicule anybody for feeling nostalgic about that, but the thing is - it never happened. Those types of players have always been very rare. The fact is, they have been just as many in the last thirty years as they were in the thirty years before.

I don't know so much as it's being nostalgic for something that never was, as it is recognizing something that's pretty special/cool. At least in my mind, there's something special about seeing a guy start in one place, hit his peak, decline, and retire while wearing the same jersey. It's two different things I think, being nostalgic for it as opposed to recognizing how it can make a player special to a particular fanbase in a way that numbers alone can't. If I was a Brewers fan, I'd prefer Yount to Molitor for that alone.

Mr. Toronto Maple Leafs had to be Rocky Colavito
Blue Jays...Tony Fernandez
Cardinals...Bob Gibson
Pirates...Roberto Clemente
Expos...Gary Carter
Braves...Warren Spahn
Reds...Joe Morgan
Dodgers...Jackie Robinson
Cubs...Ferguson Jenkins (boyhood hero)
Red Sox...Roger Clemens and Ted Williams (it's a tie!)
Yankees...Yogi Berra (no other player has added so many phrases to the English language, something only Bauxites among North American baseball fans can truly appreciate.)

as it is recognizing something that's pretty special/cool

Agreed. It used to start (for me, anyway) looking at the backs of baseball cards and seeing "New York" sixteen times and nothing else.

(Which is also where I think the whole myth comes from. While there were never very many of those guys, there was an unusually large number from the three New York teams, and New York used to be the absolute centre of the baseball media universe.)

I was just at the Yankees web-site looking for something and I noticed this: the three games they're featuring on Baseball's Best (I dunno, do you get to watch the game? Highlights? )

Anyway, they are:

1) The Aaron Boone game against Boston in 2003.
2) The Bucky Dent game against Boston in 1978.
3) Roger Maris' 61st Hr, against Boston, in 1961.

Notice a common thread there?

Speaking of Mr Yankee, the 32nd anniversary of George Steinbrenner buying the team from CBS was last Monday.

In those 32 years, they have won 9 pennants and 6 World Series. Hmmpphhh. They won 10 and 7 in 12 years with Casey!

Mr. Toronto Maple Leafs had to be Rocky Colavito

Not Wendel?

This is fun! Let me play:

Mr. Blue Jay: Tony Fernandez, or perhaps Stieb or Delgado (for some reason, I think that a pitcher can't be a Mr. Franchise)
Mr. Oriole: Brooks Robinson
Mr. Yankee: Joe DiMaggio
Mr. Red Sock: Teddy Ballgame
Mr. Devil Ray: some beer vendor or other

Mr. KC Royal: George Brett
Mr. White Sock: maybe Luke Appling
Mr. Twin: Kirby Puckett before his off-field problems; maybe Killebrew now
Mr. Indian: Rocky Colavito because of The Trade, or maybe Earl Averill or Larry Doby
Mr. Tiger: Al Kaline (or Charlie Gehringer)

Mr. Angel: I can't think of one; the star Angels always seem to have spent only a few years here. If you can't give it to Gene Autry, maybe Fregosi gets the honour.
Mr. Athletic: counting only the Oakland years, I'd give it to Rickey or Reggie.
Mr. Texas Ranger: Jim Sundberg, I guess.
Mr. Mariner: Edgar Martinez

Mr. Brave (Atlanta version): Hank Aaron (Eddie Mathews is Mr. Milwaukee Brave)
Mr. Phillie: Mike Schmidt
Mr. Marlin: Jeff Conine, I suppose
Mr. Met: Tom Seaver
Mr. Expo: Rusty Staub (Le Grand Orange), or maybe Raines or Dawson, or Youppi

Mr. Cardinal: Stan Musial
Mr. Astro: Bagwell or Biggio
Mr. Cub: Ernie Banks
Mr. Red: unfortunately, it has to be Petey
Mr. Pirate: Clemente or Stargell, or Paul Waner or Pie Traynor
Mr. Brewer: Robin Yount

Mr. Dodger: Koufax, I guess
Mr. Giant: Willie Mays
Mr. Padre: The San Diego Chicken
Mr. Rockie: the long-suffering batting practice pitchers, or maybe Todd Helton or somebody
Mr. Diamondback: their accountant

Actually, for the Padres, it has to be Gwynn.

In lieu of not finding a truly great Mr.Devilray, I'd have to give it to that loud obnoxious guy behind home plate, who likes Eric Hinske so much ;)

I'd have to give it to that loud obnoxious guy behind home plate, who likes Eric Hinske so much ;)

Man, I can't wait for that ruling regarding if "Mr. Franchise" has to have been a player. Otherwise the loud-mouths got my vote too. Although he seems to be slipping recently. He's gone from insults to a uninterupted stream of wailing, like the Cat Lady from the Simpsons.

I'd give Mr. Devil Ray to the long-suffering fans who have to sit near the guy who yells at Eric Hinske all the time. Thank goodness my television has a mute button.

I'd like to see Ernie Whitt and Tony Fernandez face off in a Mr. Blue Jays deathmatch.

Well, except for the death part.

You notice that for Mr Blue Jay, nobody mentions the guys who were the heart of the two championship teams: its usually Stieb (poster-boy of the up and coming team) or Delgado (poster-boy for the post-championship hangover years.)

Both Stieb and Delgado actually got WS rings here, but neither had much to do with it. Stieb helped a little...

Mr Devil Ray - at the very least, he certainly qualifies as Mr Real-Devil Ray, as explained above. The grim and unpleasant truth...

Mr Real-Blue Jay - I dunno. Joey Hamilton? Mark Lemongello? Orlando Merced?

Magpie, you're not forgetting Tony's five RBI's in game 4 of the 1993 World Series, the Greatest Game Ever Played, making up for Mr. Anti-Blue Jays (Al Leiter) six runs allowed in 2 and a third innings, are you?

In lieu of not finding a truly great Mr.Devilray, I'd have to give it to that loud obnoxious guy behind home plate, who likes Eric Hinske so much ;)

I'd like the Jays to trade for that guy, give him a great seat as close as possible to Hinske (in the dugout?) and then discuss what a buyout will *really* cost with Hinske's agent.

A year or so ago, I read in the Star that our Mr. Real DevilRay is actually from Toronto and was there when Joe hit the homer. He could've been one of us...

I don't know Tyler, every time Hinske plays in the Trop with that fan there he seems to find his power stroke :)

Mr A: Billy Beane

I don't know Tyler, every time Hinske plays in the Trop with that fan there he seems to find his power stroke :)

I'd like to a study on that, controlling for the crappiness of the Devil Rays "pitching" staff.

Mr. Anti-Blue Jays (Al Leiter) six runs allowed in 2 and a third innings

Hey now... let up on Al! After all, who won Game 1 of that same WS? Who worked out of the Dave Stewart/Danny Cox mess in Game 6, making the Carter HR possible?

The same guy who earned less money in six Toronto seasons than Ken Dayley made in one. Twice.

I'd like to a study on that, controlling for the crappiness of the Devil Rays "pitching" staff.

God only knows how you could manage that!

But that might be the first time the words "control" and "Devil Rays" and "pitching" have been used in the same coherent sentence.

I'd like to a study on that, controlling for the crappiness of the Devil Rays "pitching" staff.

Some quick numbers:

Eric Hinske vs Tampa Bay Devil Rays (OBP/SLG/AVG)

Home(dome) .235 .290 .161
Away(trop) .333 .487 .333

I wonder what Cat Lady has to say about this....

Eric Hinske vs Tampa Bay Devil Rays (OBP/SLG/AVG)

Home(dome) .235 .290 .161
Away(trop) .333 .487 .333

I'd like the Jays to trade for that guy, give him a great seat as close as possible to Hinske (in the dugout?) and then discuss what a buyout will *really* cost with Hinske's agent.

This is probably the best idea anyone has had all winter. Its a WIN-WIN proposition!

Actually the heckler is Canadian. He posts alot on the Rays board under Tropheckler

Someone invite that guy over here. I wanna see if he types like he heckles

Most of these players are position players... about the all-time pitcher for a team?

Blue Jays, Dave Stieb
Mariners, Randy Johnson
Yankees, Kenny Rogers (or Estoban Loaza)

I think Mr. Blue Jay has to be Ernie Whitt. Not because he was the best. Just because he was The Guy.

For almost any team you get guys for each era. Heck, for awhile in the late 80's I think the Jays guy was Kelly Gruber - hard nosed, good looking (according to my little sister who had Gruber posters and the like), and fairly talented from '88 to '90, when Whitt was dropping fast.

For the Jays I'd probably go...
1977 - Doug Ault or Bob Bailor
1978 - 1981 - John Mayberry
1982 - 1989 - Ernie Whitt
1990 - Kelly Gruber (honourable mention to Mookie Wilson)
1991 - mid 1995 - Roberto Alomar
Mid 1995 - 1997 - Joe Carter
1998 - present - Carlos Delgado

Some crossovers would've occured but that is how I see/remember it (well, for 82 on remember, didn't pay much attention to baseball before then). My personal favorite is Tony Fernandez who played in all but the early expansion years era.

Btw, Blue Jay eras...
1977-1981 - Expansion - aka no hope
1982 - 1990 - Good but not good enough to win it all
1991 - 1994 - Glory years with Alomar/Carter
1995 - present - never good enough to contend in September, high hopes low results

Fernandez was in Toronto for 83-90, 93, 98/99, 01 with many great years in each stretch. Shame his agent gave him crappy advise after '93 or he'd have had many more years here.

In the end if I had to pick one 'Mr Blue Jay' I'd go for Alomar as, during his time here, he was the best player the Jays ever had and was very popular in all aspects until his one game sit-down in '95 when the Jays gave up (trading David Cone) and the spitting incident when he was with the Orioles. I suspect he looks back on his Toronto days and wishes he could live those times again, as do all fans of the Jays.

BAL - Ripken
BOS - Williams or Yaz
NYY - Joe D
TB - McGriff
TOR - J. Carter

CWS - Appling
CLE - Lajoie or Speaker
DET - Kaline
KC - Brett
MIN - Puckett

ANA - Salmon
OAK - McGwire
SEA - Buhner
TEX - Juan Gone

ATL - Aaron
FLA - Conine
MON - G. Carter
NYM - Hernandez
PHI - Schmidt

CHC - Banks
CIN - Bench
HOU - Biggio
MIL - Yount
PIT - Stargell or Wagner
STL - Musial

ARI - Gonzalez
COL - Walker
LA - Garvey or LaSorda
SD - Gwynn
SF - Mays

I'll also give honourary mention to Claude Raymond as Mr. Expo.

Sure the Yanks wouldnt go Mantle? or Dodgers go Snider or Koufax?

I take back what I said about Al Leiter. Hawks and Chargers both lost at home today; serves me right. Jets and Rams deserved to win.

Well, seeing as I'm the resident A's "expert," I'll chime in. My vote? Any player from the three-peaters (1972-1974). Concretely, I'll go with Rollie Fingers, whose trademark mustache certainly made him the most visually recognizable Athletic. But it's hard to go wrong with some of the names above, especially Rickey Henderson. I will vote against Mark McGwire, however, who turned off a great many A's fans after some comments he made during the 1994/1995 strike and was generally as surly as Barry Bonds with the media. Big Mac was popular, no doubt, but not as popular as Eckersley, Canseco, both Hendersons (Dave and Rickey), Dave Stewart, Bob Welch, and others from the Bash Brothers epoch. When I think "Athletics," I don't think "Mark McGwire." And since he broke the HR record with the Cardinals, and became a truly dominant hitter with them, that's most likely how most people will remember him.

I wish I had been old enough to appreciate those teams in the 1970s, because apparently they were terrific to watch: a bunch of blue-collar Joes with above-average talent but with oodles of the Dreaded Intangibles. True, there were the stars: Reggie, Rollie Fingers, Catfish Hunter, Vida Blue, et al. But it was the Joe Rudis, the Ray Fosses, the Bert Campenrises, and others who I can't recall who really seemed to embody what the A's were all about back then.

How does one narrow down a Mr. Yankee????

For the record, my ballot:

1. Ruth
2. Mantle
3. Joe D.
4. Yogi Berra

Beltran didn't sign with Houston.

Well, if Connie Mack was Mr. Phil. A, I'd think you'd have to nominate Charlie O. Finley as Mr. Oak. A ... no?

The man once offered his ace pitcher $100,000 to change his name from "Vida" to "True" ... he may have been a skinflint, but there's some genius in there.

Well done, Mick. I had considered mentioning Finley, who, like other owners, was not merely the franchise but was also, in truth, bigger than the franchise. If the Yankees hadn't won a WS title or 24 before the boss came aboard, Steinbrenner would be Mr. Yankee.

I'd go with Joe Carter as Mr. Blue Jay, not because he's the best, but because the average person (person, not fan) would probably associate him with the team ahead of any other player.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/ny-beltran09,0,4218663.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines
Mets are close to signing Beltran

So they get the best FA pitcher and hitter this off-season. Don't know if that's enough to put them in the post season though.

Well, the early primaries are complete and we have no less than 120 players names as "Mr. Franchise" for 30 teams (not counting the players for the former franchises, listed at the bottom) ... here they are, divided by, well, division ... would you believe only five teams had just one player listed ... and two of them were the Sunshine State-based expansion teams?

Actually, not even the guy with the nickname that started it all, Mr. Cub, was the only nominee for his team; congratulations to Michael Jack Schmidt, the only nominee for Mr. Phillie, though Connie Mack was nominted as Mr. Philly. Tony Gwynn seems the unanimous choice for Mr. Padre (what, no love for Enzo Hernandez here?) while it is hard to believe that the team with the second-most World Series glory in its franchise history, had only one player mentioned ... of course, it was Willie Mays, so sorry, Mel Ott and Bill Terry and Christy Mathewson, take a step back.

No less than 14 Blue Jays were mentioned, with the A's next at eight (though only five players, which several other franchises matched or exceeded).

One man, Nolan Ryan, was named for two teams -- while two teams had a Charles Finley mentioned, but he wasn't the same guy.

NL EAST
NYY: Joe DiMaggio, Alex Rodriguez, Yogi Berra, Mickey Mantle
BOS: Carl Yastrzemski, Wade Boggsm Ted Williams, Roger Clemens
BAL: Cal Ripken Jr., Jim Palmer, Brooks Robinson
TB: Fred McGriff
TOR: Carlos Delgado, Corey Koskie, Bobby Mattick, Dave Stieb, Tom Cheek, Tony Fernandez, Ernie Whitt, Doug Ault, Bob Bailor, John Mayberry, Kelly Gruber, Roberto Alomar, Joe Carter

NL EAST
Braves: Hank Aaron (MIL/ATL), Eddie Matthews (MIL), Warren Spahn (BOS), Bobby Cox, Dale Murphy
PHI: Mike Schmidt
FLA: Jeff Conine
NYM: Tom Seaver, Keith Hernadez
MON: Tim Raines, Rusty Staub, Gary Carter, Floyd Youmans, Cristian Guzman (WSH), Claude Raymond

AL CENTRAL
MIN: Kirby Puckett, Harmon Killebrew
CWS: Frank Thomas, Luke Appling, Luis Aparacio
CLE: Bob Feller, Rocky Colavito, Earl Averill, Larry Doby, Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker
DET: Hank Greenberg, Ty Cobb, Al Kaline, Alan Trammell, Charlie Gehringer
KC: George Brett, Bret Saberhagen

NL CENTRAL
STL: Stan Musial, Jack Buck, Bob Gibson
HOU: Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell, Nolan Ryan
CHC: Ernie Banks, Fergie Jenkins
CIN: Pete Rose, Barry Larkin, Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench
PIT: Willie Stargell, Honus Wagner, Roberto Clemente, Paul Waner, Pie Traynor
MIL: Paul Molitor, Robin Yount

AL WEST
ANA: Cbuck Finley, Nolan Ryan, Gene Autry, Jim Fregosi, Tim Salmon
A's: Dennis Eckersley, Reggie Jackson, Connie Mack (PHI), Rickey Henderson, Charlie Finley, Billy Beane, Mark McGwire, Rollie Fingers
TEX: Rafael Palmeiro, Nolan Ryan, Pudge Rodriguez, Kenny Rogers, Jim Sundberg, Juan Gonzalez
SEA: Edgar Martinez, Junior Griffey, Jay Buhner

NL WEST
Dodgers: Steve Garvey, Orel Hershisher, Sandy Koufax, Pee Wee Reese, Jackie Robinson (BRK), Tommy Lasorda, Duke Snider
Giants: Willie Mays
SD: Tony Gwynn
COL: Todd Helton, Larry Walker
ARI: Randy Johnson, Luis Gonzalez

FORMER FRANCHISES
Chicago Whales: Dutch Zwilling
Cleveland Spiders: Jesse Burkett
Hartford Dark Blues: Bob Ferguson
Louisville Colonels: Pete Browning
Worcester Ruby Legs: Lee Richmond
Cincinnati Kelly's Killers: King Kelly (duh!)
Washington Senators I: Walter Johnson
Washington Senators II: Frank Howard
St Louis Browns: Eddie Gaedel
Seattle Pilots: Jim Bouton, Ray Oyler, Joe Schulz

Apologies if I missed some above; now, with that list, what arguments or amendmentes are sparked?

a bunch of blue-collar Joes with above-average talent but with oodles of the Dreaded Intangibles.

They had wonderful intangibles, yes, but they also had terrific talent. Their offense especially has been a little overlooked. This is partially because the pitching was pretty impressive: Hunter, Holtzman, Blue, Odom, Fingers, Knowles etc. But they were 2nd in the AL in runs scored in 1972, led the league in 1973, and were 3rd in 1974 (but just 7 runs behind the league leaders.) They were doing this while playing in what was by far the best pitcher's park in the AL.

ANA - Salmon

That's a good call - Salmon and Garret Anderson now hold most Anaheim hitting records.

Brian Downing also figures prominently in the Angel record book. Brian Downing played more games as an Angel than anyone else. Who knew? (Only eight guys have played 1000+ games as an Angel, and three of them are shortstops: Fregosi, Discarcina, and Schofield.)

Tony Fernandez still holds the Jays records for games played, at bats, and hits. Carlos didn't get them all. Fernandez played in 1450 games as a Jay.

Of course, Dave Stieb suited up for about 2135 games, although he was sitting and watching all but 450 of them.

(I estimate Cito Gaston was in uniform for 2515 games, and I can't imagine anyone else has put on the uniform more often than that.)

A correction, Mick: Nolan Ryan was actually mentioned for three teams: Anaheim, Houston, and Texas.

Nolan probably also leads the majors in children named after him by other players.

Magpie, I notice you cut off my quote just before I say "True, there were the stars." That bunch was loaded with stars, no doubt about it. But they were also gritty.

(I estimate Cito Gaston was in uniform for 2515 games, and I can't imagine anyone else has put on the uniform more often than that.)

This brings to mind perhaps a useless question I often ponder: How many times has Vin Scully said the word "Dodgers"?

How many times has Vin Scully said the word "Dodgers"?

Ohmigawd... I mean, the mind reels in furious awe trying to calculate...

Vin probably has a copyright on it by now. The rest of us are going to have pay Vin money just to ssay "Dodgers."

Ah, he deserves it. The best ever.

True, there were the stars:

There ya go!

But three of the four stars you name were pitchers, and I think that's how the team is remembered: Reggie and a fabulous staff.

And there's plenty of justice to that. Bando and Rudi were all-stars but neither is going to the Hall (although there's probably a case to be made for Bando - he wasn't as good as Santo, but he was probably better than several HoF third basemen.)

But it was a great offense - their numbers were all hurt by the ballpark, and some of the parts changed year to year: Mike Epstein, Gene Tenace, Deron Johnson, Billy North etc. Reggie, Bando, Rudi, and Campaneris were the constants.

St.Louis Browns...Woodstock, Ontario's James Edward (Tip) O'Neill who hit .492 in 1887. The following year the rules were changed to 4 balls and 3 strikes and he still hit .435. Records of RBIs were not kept until the following season or he might well have been a member of the triple crown club.
Thomas P "Tip" O'Neill, Speaker of the U>S> House of Representatives from 1977 to 1986 mentioned in his memoirs, "Man of the House," that he was given the nickname by his father, whose boyhood hero was our Tip.

How many times has Vin Scully said the word "Dodgers"?

How many times has the word "tsunami" been uttered out loud in the past two weeks? More than the total number of times in all of human history before Dec 26, 2004?

Is JP still the Jay's GM or is he on a sabbatical

He's actually following around his favourite band on tour right now so he is actually on Sabbath-ical.

How about Carlton Fisk for Mr. Red Sox? New Englander, World Series hero, etc. As for the St. Louis Browns, what about George Sisler? He was almost certainly the best player ever to play for them. If we're going for a player who sums up the experience of the franchise, we could also go for Pete Gray, the one-armed outfielder.

I think Mr. Blue Jay has to be either Whitt or Fernandez. I would nominate Cito, but I think he'd be howled down by that faction of Jays fandom that hates him, and Ernie and Tony have stronger cases anyway. Ernie Whitt is almost certainly the most popular Jay ever to play in Toronto, and Tony Fernandez has a decent case for being the best player the Jays ever had, and was here for every significant part of the team's development. I can't make up my mind, to tell you the truth.

He's actually following around his favourite band on tour right now so he is actually on Sabbath-ical.

You guys are Paranoid.

Interesting note from Jamey Newberg today; expect a flurry of free agent signings over the next few days:

ESPN's Darren Rovell notes that on Wednesday, a nearly half-century-old loophole regarding signing bonuses will close. Baseball players have been exempt from FICA taxes on signing bonuses since 1958, but on Wednesday ballplayers will begin to be treated like everyone else -- their signing bonuses will count as wages earned. This means that the player -- and the team -- will have to pay FICA on the bonus. Free agents who sign today, tomorrow, or Tuesday, and the teams who sign them, can avoid the FICA hit on the upfront cash; not so beginning Wednesday.

FICA is (U.S.) "Federal Insurance Contributions Act" and I honestly have not a clue how this affects players who'd sign in Toronto.

I would think they would be exempt since they would be signing with a Canadian employer and file Cdn income taxes. However, I stand to be corrected. If so, it would certainly help offset some of the other tax disadvantages of working in Ontario.

Is JP still the Jay's GM or is he on a sabbatical

Seriously! This guy is sure standing pat for a team that stunk last year. I hope he's got something going on because this team doesn't look any better than they did last year.

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=34478
COMN for the latest on Green to ARZ and Shea to TO. We should know by tommorrow morning.

I can only wonder what Beane will get from Arizona for Eric Brynes.

Scott Hairston, reportedly. Yet another sweet deal for Oakland if it goes through. The UZR metrics I've seen peg Byrnes as maybe the worst defensive outfielder in baseball.

One interesting fact that came out of the article Scott linked is that the Mets may be peddling Mike Cameron.

It will never happen, but could you imagine an outfield D of Rios, Wells, and Cameron?

Mike, would there be any point in bothering with Cameron if you weren't going to play him in CF? So much of his value is tied up in defense which is reduced if he plays an outfield corner.

I can only wonder what Beane will get from Arizona for Eric Brynes.

Adam Peterson.

Funny that the talk should be about defence. In the course of Barry Larkin defence research, I came across this gem from 1991 in a boxscore on retrosheet.com:

ASTROS 9TH: DIBBLE REPLACED HATCHER (PITCHING); BENZINGER
REPLACED CHARLTON (PLAYING LF); Bagwell struck out; Rhodes
singled to right; Rhodes stole second; McLemore struck out;
Schilling singled [Rhodes scored]; Dibble threw a wild pitch
[Schilling to second]; IT'S A HOCKEY GAME!!!-EJECTIONS;

Bill James once said that Ty Cobb and Rob Dibble were the only players to ever successfully channel a psychosis.

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/news_story.asp?id=110687
Apparently ESPN and AP are reporting Beltran has been signed by the Mets. 7 years, $119 million. COMN for the TSN report on the ESPN report (I don't see anything on ESPN's website yet).

I guess I should clarify that the report states that they have agreed in principle on the deal, but it is not completed yet pending Beltran's physical.

I hope the Mets get Delgado next- between the two of them, given the Mets lack of a 1B, I'd rather have Delgado for $14 million. Delgado's by far the superior hitter, and that's the Mets' primary need.

Wildly off-topic here, but has somebody mentioned at some point or other that Tom Candiotti is a commentator for ESPN's PBA (Proffesional Bowlers Association) tour?

Jordan, I don't know about Byrnes's UZR ratings, but visually he does not appear that dreadful on defense, and it's not like the A's have ever put a premium on their LF being capable defensively. (See Giambi, Jeremy, and Kielty, Bobby, among others.) As a fan, I'd be saddened to see Byrnes go, but if they can get Hairston for him, that would ease the pain -- and hopefully solve the A's second-base problem, though I thought Ginter, in theory, was supposed to help.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits3?statsId=5177&type=batting
Could be an interesting couple of days ahead, what with the FICA deadline and the Beltran dominoe potentially falling. I wonder what plans the Mets have for Cliff Floyd, they plan to move Cameron to RF and play Vance in leftfield. Is Piazza the first baseman or is it Floyd? A rumor floating about is that they'll do Boras a favor if Beltran signs and sign another of his clients, Travis Lee. Comm for Floyds 3 year splits, he's signed for 13 million over the next 2 years. Is he available, what would he cost, and is he more valuable given the increased cost over Hillenbrand?

Beltran's numbers are going to take a hit in NY. How much is unknown, obviously, but they're going to take a hit. Of course, the numbers that really matter are the ones next to the $$$$. Why would he want to play for the Mets? One would think that after getting a taste for playing for an actual Major-League team -- the Astros -- that Beltran would never be able to go back.

There's no way Cameron goes to Arizona. The D-backs don't really have anything of use to offer, and he's not being overpaid for a CF. I really hope the Mets hang on to him.

So much of his value is tied up in defense which is reduced if he plays an outfield corner.

He played with a sore wrist all season and still managed to hit for decent power while switching leagues and hitting in Shea. I think he'll have a nice season this year (.350/.450), and at $4.3 he's not an albatross. The alternative- Valent/Diaz is untested. In RF for the Mets, he allows Beltran to shade toward LF and make up for Floyd's knees. The Met defense could be incredible this year- Floyd/Cameron/Beltran, Wright/Reyes/Matsui/??. The team has good speed- everyone but Piazza and whoever winds up at 1B can steal a base.

Minya has really played the "come play for a Latin G.M." card quite well. He's visiting these guys (Pedro) in their homeland, speaking their language, offering them lots of Dinaro...good for him. Still its seems like a team of stars who could use a few foot soldiers to fill a few holes.

Wildrose, I've been saying for a while the Jays should try and get Floyd- the Mets have tried to move him, and would probably eat some of his salary to do so. The only problem is that you've got to DH him to minimize his injury risk, and the Jays have Cat for that role already. I think Floyd in Skydome approaches Delgado's OPS line. Floyd for $4/5 million would be a huge improvement on Hillenbrand for $2.5.

There's no way Piazza plays 1B this year- the Mets are going to live or die with him behind the plate. He hit significantly better as a catcher last year too.

DP you know the Mets quite well, who's their planned first baseman? With all the competing newspapers/rumors it's hard to geta handle on this. The Mets are an interesting team, Wright,Reyes and Vance are pretty good young talent to mix in with a guy named Beltran.

http://tsf.waymoresports.thestar.com/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?4650
As of today, the lineup is:

C- Piazza
1b- unknown, probably Jason Phillips if the season started today
2B- Matsui
SS- Reyes
3B- Wright (COMN for stats)
LF- Floyd
CF- Beltran
RF- Cameron.

The Mets have signed Woodward and Cairo as insurance for the DP combo. They've got Eric Valent and Victor Diaz to back up the outfield. 4 of those guys are a good bet for 20+ steals, if Randolph decides to use that weapon, and even Floyd stole 11 bases last year. Reyes is a huge question mark, but the Mets are investing a lot in coaching/conditioning for him. Wright is gonna be a monster with the bat. Matsui improved as the season went on- and he won't have the pressure of being the big story this season.

SP- Pedro, Glavine, Benson, Zambrano, Traschel.

If those guys stay healthy, they're in good shape. It's a fragile rotation, and 2 of those 5 guys could miss significant time. There isn't really anyone too capable that can step in- the Mets minor league syetm lacks the depth of the Jays. The Mets play in a pitcher's park and have good OF and INF, so those guys can be expected to perform to the upper level of their ability.

Not a spectacular team, but better than what they've had before. More depth, better constructed offense.

Who is Vance? As of now, the Mets really need a 1B. If Phillips plays there, they need to carry Castro to back up Piazza. Hopefully, they'll at least get someone who can field- they played Todd F'ing Zeile, Piazza, and Eric Valent there last year, and I think it hurt the infield defense significantly.

Is it me, or is 1B no longer overflowing with talent the way it used to be? A lot of the once-great 1B have faded, gotten hurt, aged, ect. Seems like a lot of teams have question marks there.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=6644
Thanks DP, sorry I meant Valent, who I should know since I saw him hit for the cycle against the Expos during $1 dollar hotdog day last year in the big O. Not a bad player had a pretty solid line last year(comm).

The Met better play Piazza at 1B just so they dont risk further damage to him (if they dont get a LEGIT option at 1b).... Phillips is a terrible hitter, and a natural catcher.

My BBFL team was hoping that Beltran would stay in Houston. Oh well. Is anyone else having a difficult time reading ESPN's articles using Firefox? Firefox doesn't want to open the ESPN Beltran story. Floyd to the Jays would be a great deal. The Mets wouldn't even have to pay any salary if they took Hinske off our hands. Maybe the Jays will have to change Eric's name to Jose Hinskeguez so that Minaya will bite.

The Met better play Piazza at 1B just so they dont risk further damage to him

He CAN'T play 1B- he's hotrrible at it. They tried, it didn't work. And it screwed him up at the plate- so you had a guy playing unspeakabley bad defense at 1B and not hitting. Phillips isn't a horrid hitter- last year he tried swinging for the fences a lot and really got screwed up at the plate. As much as '03 was above his head, '04 was way below it. His AAA line is .296/.351/.484.

The Mets have been looking for a 1B- I don't think they'll make the same mistake they did last year, playing guys out of position there. My guess is they'll carry a 1B plus Phillips, Castro (who has some upside based on his minor league numbers) and Piazza, allowing them to adequately rest/protect Piazza. The problem with the Mets offense the last few years is that it's been so Piazza dependent that they can't afford to sit him, so he's worn out late in the season. With Wright and Beltran in the lineup this year, that shouldn't be so mcuh of a problem.

Re: Valent- he had a nice season, but I wouldn't want to lean on him for much more than 200/300 AB. But as a 4th OF he looks great.

I think if the Mets grab Beltran they are looking like the favorites in the NL East to me.

Reyes
Matsui
Beltran
Piazza
Wright
Floyd
1st baseman - If this was Delgado imagine starting Reyes,Mat,Bel,Del
Cameron

That's a pretty nice National League lineup.

They also have a chance to have a nice rotation. The biggest question with them might be the bullpen.

I don't know if someone has heard about this previously, but I recently spoke with someone that works for SkyDome and they were kind enough to update me on improvements. They expect to be putting in FieldTurf for next season (which was guessed already), as well as a new JumboTron. The old one has been taken down and a new, slightly larger one (hard to imagine) will be put in place. As well as this, a 360 degree scoreboard will be placed along the 300 level facing, similar to the one in the ACC or Angels Stadium (except that one doesn't go all around).

One thing that occurred to me...at this point last year, we were all full of optimism about 2004. Predictions ranged from 83 - 95 wins or so. Much of this optimism was based on the strong finish to 2003. Nothing like the old recency effect, for those that remember Psych 101.

Fast forward a year, and da consensus on da Box is that the Jays are headed towards about 70 wins or so. But how much is different in a year? Compare to last offseason:

C - Myers/Zaun instead of Myers/Cash = no change
1B - "effectively" Koskie for Delgado = worse off
2B - Hudson = same
SS - Adams instead of Woodward = same
3B - "effectively" Hinske = same
LF - Cat/Johnson = same
CF - Wells = same
RF - Rios instead of Kielty = same
DH - ? instead of Phelps = ?

SP - Halladay, Batista, Lilly, Bush, Towers (only Bush is different)
RP - Speier, Ligtenberg, Frasor, Chulk, etc. (no more Adams, Kershner or De los Santos)

Taking a look at the roster, it's not radically different. I think we were caught up in a lot of career years that were had in '03 (Myers, Delgado, Hudson, Johnson, Wells, Halladay, Batista, Lilly, etc.) and expected them all to repeat, AS WELL as the likes of Hinske to improve. That wasn't realistic, and as we know, wasn't the case.

So that begs the question, was '03 the fluke, or '04? What can we realistically expect in '05? Somewhere in between? Is the club as bad as we fear? I think not, but maybe I'm just looking for a ray of hope on a bleak winter day...

I know it's slim pickings in the FA market so it looks like the most viable option to obtain players is through trades.

I wonder if JP would have any interest in Russell Branyan. I know he can't hit for AVG and K's a lot, but I wouldn't mind seeing him DH against RHP. This guy is a power hitter.

Kieran,

I daresay we'll be making lots of predictions nearer the start of the season! (I wasn't particularly optimistic last year. I was only lurking then, not posting, but I had my own prediction of only .500 for the year.)

There is some logic behind pessimistic predictions for this season (although I'm not sure I agree with it all the way through). At the end of 03 it looked like Wells was on an upwards track towards superstardom, Halladay had been so consistent that we couldn't imagine him falling down, and there was the belief that Hinske and Phelps were on upwards curves through recovery from injury and reaching peak age. If we won 86 in 03 and were on an upwards curve then the same players should win more in 04.

Now with the info we have today, you could argue that Wells' 03 performance might have been a fluke and that his best-guess trajectory is solid player, not all-star. Halladay has proved vulnerable (and to a mysterious problem which we can't really be assured is fixed). Hinske is on a downwards spiral. Phelps is gone. It's not so much the actual talent level as where it looks like its going.

So the roster might look only marginally weaker than it did at the start of 03, but we no longer have a rose-tinted view of how the players are developing. And this year we are paying attention to the fact that other teams, especially our divisional rivals, are also trying to improve -- arguably a whole lot more successfully than us.

So that's an argument for pessimism. I'm not saying I totally agree with it, just presenting a case. I do think there's a risk of a very poor season if we get off to yet another bad start.

If Thrillhouse is "the same" as Woody, this team has got alot bigger problems than next season.

I think if the Mets grab Beltran they are looking like the favorites in the NL East to me.

The lesson I learned last year: never count out the Braves. As such, they remain the favourites until someone knocks them off. The Mets may not be as bad as I implied above -- I still think Beltran would have been better off in Houston -- but it's premature to label them favourites. Unless, of course, we're talking about them being the favourites to be the favourite. That makes sense. I think?

I don't think this team is all that bad. First, the team is better defensively this year, with hisnke at first, koskie at third, and an improved hudson at 2nd. Rios was one of the best defensive RF in the game. There is also an improvement in hitting if the lineup is healthy this year, and halladay and bush are arguably better than hentgen and journeyman pitchers from the minors.

Remember, there are many mlb ready prospects in syracuse next year. I think quiroz, hill, gross, hattig, griffin, rosario, league, and perhaps vermilya will start the season there. In 2002, all it took was the promotion of phelps and miller, and the jays had the fifth best record after the all star break.

I think that 80 wins is what the jays will get next year, and they could load themselves with high end prospects. Lilly, batista, cat, hudson, and perhaps myers/zaun will be attractive commodities at the trade deadline. One of the real bad things about last year was losing delgado for nothing. I mean, texas signed urbina in the offseason, and got adrian gonzales at the break. We got nothing for delgado.

It sucks to wait though, and perhaps, next year, the jays could get a couple of sluggers via free agency or trades.

I think if the Mets grab Beltran they are looking like the favorites in the NL East to me.

well i bet every single existing one of those "grand funk dollars" left on the planet that GFR was talking about the other day, that the Mets don't come with-in a sniff of a playoff this year.

I've allways though that, for a while, the Mets bought heavily into some ridiculous form of a 'moneyball' philosophy. They made a bunch of graphs to find who the best players were, and found they were the guys who got payed the most. So they concluded that if they payed Roger Cedeno 9 million a year, that he would become one of the best players in the league....

Admitedly, this is a new regime and reglardless of how unecomonicaly inclined their lineup is, it's got some talent. Well, first, we know Piazza will go down for a while, along with Cliff Floyd. Every one raves about Reyes, but even if he is healthy, and has potential, his lack of walks and power(and just about anything last year) wont help the team win next season. As was mentioned before, to have Beltran and Cameron is a real waste of range. Wright is the real deal but Jason phillips is not. Nor is Valent.

Traschel sure as hell ain't gonna get better at his age, Zambrano and Benson aren't actually that good, and Glavine's K/bb and k/ip indicate that his last season was a huge fluke. Pedro, well, I've got a soft spot for that ruthless greedy pig and I actually think he will pitch well in the NL at Shea. But if any of these old clunkers go down your lookin' at Heilman or Seo.

this post has gotten way too long so I won't even go into the bullpen depth behind Looper,(franco?) and I rap it up by concluding:
The Braves have it in the bag

they gone yet?

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1105225817459&call_pageid=969907739730&col=970081600908&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes


Primer just linked to the newest vitriol by Griffin. COMN for the article, head over to primer for the discussion.

Who predicted the Jays to win 95 games last season?

Although theres some truth to this article, I can't understand why Richard Griffin is intent on turning people off of the Jays. This guy never gives up. Does he take pride in turning people off of baseball in Toronto? The Jays record in 2004 doesn't help at all but why would the borderline fan want to go to a game after reading that?

C'mon Jays, make this guy eat his words in April.

Griffin must think it's his personal mission to get JP fired. I have no idea why he would feel that way, but all the evidence is certainly there.

On the contrary Mr Griffin, the Jays don't need to be in the headlines to make people interested. The Dome will look much better next year even if there is no bragging or self promotion. What would you have the Jays do? Overspend for Matt Clement? We've already got a Matt Clement. His name is Dave Bush, only he's younger, cheaper, and doesn't walk as many. If we get Hillenbrand, he's a solid middle of the lineup guy with some upside. Koskie, Wells, Hillenbrand, Catalanotto, Rios, Hudson and Myers are all good professional hitters. Russ Adams has some pop, good speed, good eye. We just gotta put a solid bullpen together and this team can compete. There is NO question in my mind.

RG seems to be taking more shots at Rob Bradford (author of Chasing Steinbrenner) than he is at JP.

Griff does have a point, though. It has been an incredibly dull off-season for the Jays and it hasn't exactly helped build a buzz about the team.

I understand Griffin's agenda and his feelings toward the Ricciardi regime. I'm also sure he works hard and serves his paper well. But what people should take into account when reading his latest column is that his argument losses some credibility by trying to form it around Chasing Steinbrenner. Instead of taking actual facts from the book to state his point, he chooses to say that the whole premise of the pages are to push the idea about the stats-no scouts-numbers which the subjects have been linked to. For the last time (attn. Ringolsby, Fraley, Griffin) the book is about the stories and the people who encompassed the 2003 season, not how these guys sit in front of computers trying to catch the Yankees. Convenience doesn't always make it right, Richard.

Beyond dropping my subscription to the Star (which I did), I really don't know how else to express my displeasure with Griffin. What can or should people do when he plays fast and loose with the facts?

I mean, can't Bradford's publisher make a formal complaint about the deliberate misrepresentation of his book in an article by a feature writer in a widely read newspaper? Or do they really not care about facts over at the Star?

Frankly, though, I'm happy that Griffin is the way he is: if he wasn't, I never would have dropped my Star subscription and given the Globe and Mail a chance. So basically, Griff being the way he is led me to the wonderful baseball writing of Blair.

For the last time (attn. Ringolsby, Fraley, Griffin) the book is about the stories and the people who encompassed the 2003 season, not how these guys sit in front of computers trying to catch the Yankees.

Then you shouldn't have let Billy Beane write the book, Rob!

Dear John Gizzi, I am including this emoticon to accompany my post just for you.

:-)

NFH, couldn't agree with you more.

This article, being the final straw, is why I am cancelling my subscription to the Star as of today.

If only there was more Jeff Blairs in the world, *sigh*.

What drives me Grimlock nuts about the local media is that they seem to take great pleasure when the local teams lose. Me Grimlock don't understand it. Me Grimlock don't want them to be homer cheerleaders like on the YES Network, but there isn't even a pretext of objectivity, there is open hostility. Me Grimlock also dropped me Grimlock's subscription to the Star, long ago, a major reason of which was the relentlessly negative and me Grimlock, believes, unprofessional coverage.

Anyways, baseball coverage in Canada is TERRIBLE. Anyone catch Simmons, Cox, and Hodge on The Reporters this morning? They were talking about the Ryne Sandberg HOF election "controversy." What controversy? Only in Canada can they criticize the baseball HOF for electing Ryne Sandberg, but live with the idea of the hockey HOF electing a mediocrity like Clark Gillies.

VBF, make sure to tell them why you're cancelling.

Gotta agree with Grimlock -- hostility, especially hostility based on ludicrous untruths and exaggerated half-truths is, does not make coverage "objective". It's just as bad as homerism, but in the opposite direction.

It helps to picture Griffin speaking in a helium voice and wearing a clown nose when you read his stuff.

I just saw the Sportsnet crawl which suggested that the Jays just signed Koch. Terms undisclosed. No link yet, BBRRS = slushie on a warm day.

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/news_story.asp?ID=110749&hubName=mlb
COMN for TSN story on the Koch deal

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/news_story.asp?ID=110749&hubName=mlb
According to the Toronto Sun, the Blue Jays have signed Billy Koch

Upon seeing this, I'm applying a BBRRS Level of ketchup. If the Star confirms, I think we have salsa. However, if the Globe reports otherwise, I will have to go with seltzer.

And I love the 44.6% stuff from that Griff article so much, I'm going to start using it as often as I can until it is no longer funny and everyone is sick of me.

GOMEZ HIT GRAND SLAM 44.6% LONGER NOW

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/story.asp?sport=MLB&storyid=8335
According to rotoworld, the Mets and Beltran have an "agreement" for a seven-year deal, $119 million, including an $11 million signing bonus deal. COMN

Hmmm.... I guess this is about a BBRRS of that really weird substance when you mix corn starch and water and put it in a balloon.

I can't even bring myself to read this infamous Griffin article. The guy already boils my blood enough everyday, and hearing the reviews of this one, I'm not really in the mood to start smashing things at quarter past 1.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-diamondbacks-green&prov=ap&type=lgns
Diamondbanks signed Green, COMN for details. Doesn't say anything about Shea in the article.

I'm starting to think I should write a letter to the Star explaining how I'm looking for a good newspaper in the Toronto area and if it weren't for Griffin's false and biased coverage of the Jays, I might buy it.

If the Star knew the situation, they'd be more likely to do something about it. But they may not. A cancelled subscription does nothing without explanation.

Hey now... let up on Al! After all, who won Game 1 of that same WS? Who worked out of the Dave Stewart/Danny Cox mess in Game 6, making the Carter HR possible?

The same guy who earned less money in six Toronto seasons than Ken Dayley made in one. Twice

Still doesn't excuse the fact that Mr. Blister is a traitor!