This is as good as the lockout ending! And he doesn't get New York, but New York's crappy sister that no one cares about...I love it!

Best trade scenario I've seen in months, so I'm glad Babcock pulled the trigger. Getting those 2 first round picks is huge (NJ giving us Denver's first rounder next year, and Philly's 05 or 06) especially considering the teams they are really coming from aren't that spectatular so it could be useful picks.

Our team is very deep, especially front court. Looks like we are going to have PF's playing SF positions. Bosh moving to SF?

Now to get rid of Rose..

Wait...has this been confirmed per Batter's Box requirements, or are they loosened for other trades?

It's pending the physical's...or maybe just league approval means 'matching the salaries within 10%'. I think it's good as done though. Imagine baseball trades if they had to match within 10% of salaries, ugh.

It's a confirmed trade, pending league approval. Since I think the NBA will be thrilled to have Vince next door to the New York market, that shouldn't be a problem.

And anyway, ESPN said so. It must be true. :-)

The Raps just guarenteed themselves a sell-out for this Sunday.

THIS IS FANTASTIC!!!

Such is my opinion.

YES YES YES YES YES!!

Those 2 first round picks are awsome - Both have good chances to be Top 10 (barring protection).

Mourning is EXACTLY what this team needs: A defender with heart, hes recovering from some problems, but theres no doubt Mourning is on the upswing. Eric Williams looks like he could be a solid player off the bench/Ok starter.. Finally some relief for one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

I'll be surprised if Mourning is still here by the All-Star Game.

Are there are more guys in the league named "Williams" the Raps can get? Is Alvin definitely done for the year?

Yeah I've heard Alvin is pretty much done for the year, Can't confirm that though.

Williams, Brandon (G)
CLE Williams, Scott (C/F)
MIL Williams, Maurice (G)
Williams, Shammond (G)
Williams, Walt (F/G)
Williams, Jay (G)
TOR Williams, Aaron (C/F)
TOR Williams, Alvin (G)
TOR Williams, Eric (G)
MEM Williams, Jason (G)
NY Williams, Jerome (C/F)
Williams, Monty (F)
CHI Williams, Frank (G)
Williams, Ajani (F/C)

Still got 11 More before we can "collect 'em all".

What are you guys talking about? This deal is awful. Both of those picks are mid-to-late first rounders that were sent to New Jersey from Philadelphia and Denver. The fact that the Raps traded Vince Carter alone suggests that they should have gotten either good, young players, or salary cap relief. Instead, they get neither --- three players in their mid-thirties with 1-2 years left on their contract + picks in the late 1st round of what's supposed to be an awful draft class this year.

Mourning is EXACTLY what this team needs: ....theres no doubt Mourning is on the upswing.

Mourning didn't want to play in New Jersy; he DEFINITELY won't want to play in TO. And to say the guy is on the Upswing? Not to be offensive, but this guy has one kidney and can't even play 30 minutes in a ball game.

I know the undertone of most is rude and bitter, but I'm just very dissapointed in the deal. If you go to the REALGM message boards, you'll see almost all other Raps fans feel the same way.

The Raps just guarenteed themselves a sell-out for this Sunday.

Vince isn't eligable to get off the DL for 2 more games, so that means he will not be playing on Sunday.

Getting those 2 first round picks is huge (NJ giving us Denver's first rounder next year, and Philly's 05 or 06) especially considering the teams they are really coming from aren't that spectatular so it could be useful picks.

The picks are protected incase those teams do horribly this year. Denver is a good team, so that pick will probably be around 20th overall maybe even worse than that.

The Philly pick is only eligable if its not 1-8, Philly is 10th right now so that's will be around where it is.

The Raptors own pick is at 6th right now, but who knows where it will go from here, can they get any worse? At least they got some perimeter defense now, and it's not like Vince was playing much anyways.

The problem with getting the draft picks, is the 2005 draft is supposed to be very weak.

One last thing, I bet Babcock is pissed that he took Aruajo w/ his pick this year, if he knew that he would trade Vince for basically nothing, I'm sure he would've drafted more of an athlete w/ some potential to be great. I.e. Andre Igudala, Josh Smith, etc.

Robbie, this team is one of the worst defensive teams, We needed some help on that front BIG time. We needed a few more Big bodies to head to the basket (we have lots of Pure Shooters) and slash to the basket.

Realistically those 2 picks are going to be in the 10-18 range. Philly MIGHT get over 500 this year, but its doubtful denver will. We probably will get at least 1 decent player from the draft (which is better than nothing). We have Cap flexability within 2 years to lure potential FAs. We get this headcase OUT of here.

I know Zo just had a kidney transplant, but hes getting stronger every game, theres no doubt about that. I wouldn't want to play for the Nets the way their ownership has been acting... NO commitment to winning... at least the Raptors are a slight step up from them.

Williams and Zo are going to make an impact right away... The Raptors aren't out of the playoff hunt yet this year, considering they are in the east. If we play .500 the rest of the way we will probably make it.

I just think it addresses what the team needed right now.

I know Zo just had a kidney transplant, but hes getting stronger every game, theres no doubt about that.

Ya he's getting stronger b/c he's sitting on his ass recovering from playing in the first 20 games. Zo's done man, read below...

Mourning, 34, has not played since December 7 against Cleveland due to an assortment of ailments. He was forced to leave the Nets last season to undergo a kidney transplant but has made a remarkable recovery and is averaging 10.4 points, 7.1 rebounds and 2.3 blocks in 18 games this season.

I just think it addresses what the team needed right now.

Sorry for 2 posts in a row...

BUT why address the team now? They finish .500 and make the playoffs, then what? They lose in the first round and start over being crappy again. By making the playoffs they have taken themselves out of the draft lottery, doesn't make much sense to me. I wish Babcock would've got expriring contracts, but no, he gets an overpaid, injuried Centre....

"Mourning has three years left on a $22 million contract he signed before the 2002-03 season. None of that money is insured should he be forced to retire."

His Scoring touch definately isn't done.

Those numbers are what? on 24 MPGs? If he can get his stamina back (which is quite likely he WILL get at least some of it back) he can be a good force for us.

Say he plays 30 MPGs, plays 85% of our games. Thats around 12 PPG + his defensive prowess which is more than Big Baby Vince brings to the table.

Also in response to your last post about the draft Lottery...

The Raptors and Toronto aren't built around hardcore, "stick with it" fans, heck this being a Jays site we all know how TO abandons some of its sports franchises (cept hockey).

Winning Sells tickets. You yourself said this is going to be a weak draft (and we aren't getting better chances for the #1 pick than the bobcats, thats for sure).

People want to see winning franchises and this addresses the team Economically in the long run. If we can make it to the playoffs instead of setting another couple futility records, this is essential to the long term health of the franchise.

I'm not saying Big Baby Vince brings a lot to the table. Surely you can find one team who has expiring contracts to trade Vince to. You don't go after someone who "recently said that his body was breaking down and that he might need time off."

This is a horrible trade for the Raptors. You have to get expiring contracts, you have to get GOOD draft picks, and you have to try to include Jalen's contract into a deal. The Raptors did NONE of those.

Unless Babcock has a team lined up to trade Zo to. I could do a better job than he has done so far. That draft was a joke.

Fans would rather see young exciting players lose, than old boring players lose. B/c the young players just might turn into something good, whereas the old players, give you no hope. Just a constant remind of how dark the future really is.

Who would you pay money to see? Winning isn't an option here. If it was, going after somebody a bit better than Zo or the Williams' might have been not a bad idea. Babcock did this trade for the draft picks, unfortunately.

The TSN commentators are wondering whether Mourning will even report to Toronto.

I've always thought that Carter's problem was that he became afraid of injuring himself. I wonder whether his body just can't take the strain he puts on it when he drives to the bucket.

Braby I think this team is closer than you may think.

We have a very good perimeter game, we need some slashers to goto the Basket and we need some solid defenders.

Look what happens when people don't get out to the 3 point line to guard the Raptors: See T-Wolves.

If we had some better defenders that game would have been a blowout in favor of TO.

We've had some VERY close games and I dont think this team needs a complete makeover, just some additional pieces.

I love when I leave my name out and it erases everything.

The TSN commentators are wondering whether Mourning will even report to Toronto.

Please don't report...

I've always thought that Carter's problem was that he became afraid of injuring himself. I wonder whether his body just can't take the strain he puts on it when he drives to the bucket.

I agree 100%. I also think that he took it ez b/c he didn't want to get hurt so he wouldn't be able to be traded (funny how that worked out).

I guess we'll find out in NY whether he goes hard to the net. I know we'll see him finish one or two J Kidd oops.

Braby I think this team is closer than you may think.

I agree that this team is competitive, and yes they are in EVERY game until the end. But they don't have players who can finish games. Vince was that player, and he crapped out. Even if they do start finishing these games, where does that put us? In the middle-end of the LEastern Conference. I'd much rather look towards the future than hope for that.

I'd like to remind you that Toronto is 8-16. And that's after a 3-0 start.

It's doubtful that the Nuggets are going to make it over .500? I'm not as high on them as some (probably because of my intense distaste for 'Melo and K-Mart), but I'd be surprised if they're below .500 and I think they'll make the playoffs. These aren't your daddy's (or Dikembe's) Nuggets!

I like 'Zo and even suggested that a certain team of celestial bodies could do worse than acquire him in another thread, but to expect him to play 30 mins/game for 85% of the games is unreasonable. His condition isn't going to improve as the season progresses, if anything, it'll deteriorate. I like the trade if Babcock can flip the picks (and maybe 'Zo) for something useful. If not, at least Carter's gone.

Denver is 13-9 after a brutal start. They are one of the hottest teams in the NBA, they WILL finish MUCH higher than .500. They've won 11 of their last 15 games.

Zo hasn't played since early December. When will he be back? Nobody knows. Didn't he do this last year as well? He never going to be ZO again, or 1/2 of Zo again. He's Done.

And don't forget that Zo's contract is not insured if he is out for his career at any point.

If you believe that the Raps as constituted now are close to winning, or even making the playoffs, you're kidding yourself.

Wait for the other shoe to drop... Babcock must've been expecting Zo not to play for us since he thought New Jersey wasn't a contender, so he might've had a deal with a team like Miami in principle before pulling the trigger on this one. If that happens then this basically becomes a deal similar to one for expiring contracts with the added bonus that in Eric and Aaron Williams we get serviceable role players at an affordable cost, or if that doesn't work out they are tradeable as well. At this point, a part of me is too relieved that Vince (consequences be damned re: attendance) is finally gone to get upset at this move.

I was just thinking to myself Moneyball could and should be applied to basketball, especially in the environment that has been created since the luxury tax came about. Too many teams pay big money and handcuff themselves to players whose stats don't contribute as much to winning as they think. Unless you're looking at Lebron, KG, Wade, Nash etc then I think finding players who are undervalued and would command less money on the market is the way to go (kind of like the Pistons) rather than throwing money to the Tim Thomases of the world the first chance you get.

Of course there are also a lot of dumb NBA GM's out there throwing around all kinds of money, knowing that they have little job security, so its win now and at any cost. ; )

Completely unsubstantiated rumour from a message board (I can't remember if these types are allowed). Anyways, Mourning, maybe Rose and a draft pick to Miami for Eddie Jones and someone else.

Robbie, if you think that the Raptors as constituted yesterday were closing to winning than I think you're kidding yourself. The Raps now actually have depth, which might be the first time in their history that they can say that. Plus, they've had the worst schedule in the league so far. Normally I don't buy those complaints, but this time it's quite true. They've played more games than any other team, more road games than any other team, and more games against the West than any team in the East.

If they can be anywhere near the playoffs come mid January I think theuy'll be okay.

Good riddance to Carter.

The argument that Denver will finish below .500 is absurd. They've got plenty of talent over there.

If I was a Babcock I would try to package a first rounder and cap filler for Magloire.

The Hornets are dreadful and they're in rebuilding mode and the Raps need a legit Center. It also doesn't hurt that Magloire is Canadian.

This is an awful trade. Honestly, I'm shocked at some of the rationale offered in support of this being a good trade.

A cardinal sin of trading in the Association is downgrading your talent level in the process. Moreso than other leagues, where systems and philosophies can better compensate, the NBA is a talent league. Perhaps nobody understands this better than Jerry Logo (he raised the overall talent stockpile in Memphis very efficiently).

I was as frustrated at Vince as the next guy, but the fact of the matter is he was still valued enough to land better than TWO SUPPORTING CAST guys in the Williamses (Mourning will likely never play for this team and, if he does, will almost certainly be gone by the deadline).

You can talk all you want about addition by subraction, etc., but this was Babcock's best chance at landing a viable (if not above average) post option for his team.

He blew it in spectacular fashion.

I am sure the Denver pick (if allowed) will be thrown to Cleveland to satisfy the requirements of a lotto-protected Raptors 1st as a part of the Murray/Yogi trade (remember that?). That's about the biggest positive I can derive from this.

I forgave Babcock for drafting Araujo in lieu of the no-brainer (Andre Iggy in Philly) or the gutsier-but-smarter-if-you-could-only-scout-well big man (Harrison in Indy, who am I currently watching dismantle the Raptors front line).

Sorry dude, this is a huge strike two...

Just awful.

This is a horrible trade for the Raptors. You have to get expiring contracts, you have to get GOOD draft picks, and you have to try to include Jalen's contract into a deal. The Raptors did NONE of those.

Bang on.

I was hoping for a young-ish (not older than 28 perhaps?) big man who could start, but you AT LEAST have to meet two of those requirements above...

God, this is unbelievably depressing... just sickening.

miVulgar,

I agree with you that the draft was bad. And agree with you that the league is talent based, and downgrading talent is bad. Those two picks are valuable to have, but most importantly is the dumping of Carter at all.

This allows them in the minds of the media to tank this season and dump all but the worthy keepers. In the East, tanking intentionally is thought lowly of as the competition for the playoffs is inclusive at the bottom. But, now they either go on a nice run from here on in (which could happen w/ the depth and w/o the deference to, poor play from, and terrible attitude from Carter) or they trade the farm for cap space and picks. I doubt Zo finishes the year with the Raptors let alone the season.

I don't like that Eric Williams is the YOUNGEST player coming here -- at age 32. Sure, it might marginally increase the chances of gaining respectability, but playing .500 should not be a goal in and of itself. If you're trying to build a championship calibre team, this is a step backward. And at the risk of turning this into a baseball discussion, listening to Babcock prattle on about playing the game the right way and adding character gave me some Sparky Anderson "We need Enos Cabell"-style chills.

I was hoping for a young-ish (not older than 28 perhaps?) big man who could start, but you AT LEAST have to meet two of those requirements above...

That's just crazy nutso. You draft those guys--you don't trade for them, least of all for an overpaid chump pansy.

No team with VC that doesn't make a laughing stock out of the salary cap and luxury tax can ever win the championship. No team. Ever.

That he is gone is perfect. Frankly, two #1 picks is hella lot more than he is worth.

Toronto fans overrated him from the day he arrived to the day he left, apparently. You're lucky to be done with him.

I think this trade gets even better as the Williamses (please all three, please all three) et al. get turfed as the season progresses....Babcock's babbling about improving this year is spinning his turfing his "best" player to the casual fan. He stuck Arujo on the IL to accommodate the players from the trade--there'll be some dumpage pronto to get him back on the active roster.

Also, to keep my Ripkian consecutive posts streak alive, I'd bet dollars to donuts that he didn't want any of that chafe--that just evened the salaries out so that he could get those picks. That's not too bad considering the salary he dumped.

Also, to keep my Ripkian consecutive posts streak alive, he could have gotten stuck with another flawed so-called star who is also overpaid (Marbury, Thomas, Crawford, blue blue blue). I'll take this collection of eminently tradeable guys with one or two years left. That's fo' sho'!

Let me be Ryan Minor for a moment. I can see Eric W. having trade deadline value, but I'm not sure about the other two. I understand that Babcock's got some spinning to do -- he can't come out and say that Vince was a cancer or whatever. I also enjoyed Babcock's comments about bringing in veterans to teach the younger guys how to play the game the right way. What younger guys? Ok, Bosh and who else? Mo Pete is 27. Alston is 28. Araujo? Bonner? Pepe Sow?

you might be missing the point--who cares if they have trade value or not? getting someone to take them off of your hands without stuffing you back worse contracts is all they should care about. aaron williams could look good to a team like miami. who cares? take a 2nd rounder. not having to pay carter's salary creates a huge hole in the payroll--to be filled with the next star they draft, hopefully one not so disappointed as VC was. the point is about fixing the salary cap circumstances first and foremost while picking up picks--these players can be turfed. If they are allowed to finish their careers in TO, then I will rant about this trade like you have never seen ranting before.

VC is alot of things, but I don't think you can call the drafting of him disapointing.

(RCS, are you Will?)

Yep. My anti-Vince parade gave me away?

I don't know how much that year they went to the final four matters--I don't know how much it matters that he won the fan vote every year....I don't know how much I ever expected from him. I do know that I never saw this as that much better than having a much better Bryant Reeves: a player paid out of all chance of having value.

positive that is.

This allows them in the minds of the media to tank this season and dump all but the worthy keepers.

In the minds of the media?

There is so much wrong with that comment that I'll just let it pass.

If you think creatively tanking the season in some way that is more palatable to observers so that you can improve your draft odds is a viable way to build a team, well, THAT'S just "crazy nutso".

You draft those guys--you don't trade for them, least of all for an overpaid chump pansy.


Yeah, (Jermaine O'Neal-PORTLAND), you're right... How could I (Marc Jackson-MINNESOTA) possibly think that a team would be willing to give up a younger big man (Nazr Mohammed-ATLANTA) with at least a LITTLE bit of upside to hope for? That never happens.

How could I ever be so stupid? OF COURSE the only way you can find such talent is through the draft!

Thank you for helping me see the light.

Your amazing anti-VC bias (again, not my farourite player) is completely blinding you to the fact that the Raptors were taken to the cleaners. Brutal.

Well, I'm outtie. Nazr & Marc will be the cornerstone of a championship team. Teams trade the likes of Jermaine all of the time--no, wait, there went one now. I am both biased against VC and in the possession of a very low opinion of him garnered by objective analysis. I have my slams ready.

If you think creatively tanking the season in some way that is more palatable to observers so that you can improve your draft odds is a viable way to build a team, well, THAT'S just "crazy nutso".

you don't believe in the success cycle? you don't think that the draft lottery was invented for fun do you? you don't think that perhaps lebron was worth the cavs' record that year? trading for young bigs is better than drafting to make a winner?

Your amazing anti-VC bias (again, not my farourite player) is completely blinding you to the fact that the Raptors were taken to the cleaners. Brutal.

Or you're wrong. whatever.

I don't see the payroll argument. So far as I know, the payrolls have to roughly balance. (I could be totally out to lunch, but I think that's the case..) One Williams is signed through 06. The other and Mourning are signed through 07. Anyone the Raptors draft (the next star?) in 05 is entry capped through 08. I don't see how this creates a salary room. Maybe we get some cap room after 05-06? Or maybe you're saying that one of the Williames or Marshall or Mourning gets flipped on to someone else who gives us an equal salary 04 free agent? I don't want to put words in your mouth, and salary cap rules are arcane enough....

Clement just signed with the Red Sox for 25.5 mil over 3 years. That seems like a price the jays could have matched.

Omg ben... say it ain't so.

Could have matched? Yes.
Should have matched? Not so sure.
Could/Should have bid up to the point where Clement chooses Toronto over the defending World Champions? I doubt it.

I dont know much about basketball, but I find it highly amusing when I came here to gauge reaction of this trade and found as many "This is the BEST deal we could have gotten!" as "This is the WORST deal we could have gotten!" comments. Don't I've seen it that even after a trade before.

but I find it highly amusing when I came here to gauge reaction of this trade and found as many "This is the BEST deal we could have gotten!" as "This is the WORST deal we could have gotten!" comments. Don't I've seen it that even after a trade before.

Thats because people are... well, anyway.

I dont like this deal because:

We MIGHT get The sixers draft pick this year, around 10+. However, the way things are shaping up our pick will be worse anyway - i suppose we can trade up with the two... but this coming draft looks to be one of the worst in a long time.

The Nuggets pick we get is in 2006 and protected which doesnt matter because the Nuggets will be very good then (once they get a shooting guard)

So we get younger... in a couple of years.

For those of you who dont know, Toronto is 15 million or so over the salary cap (like basically every team in the NBA.) Because we dont shed any contracts after this year, we have no flexibility.

Babcock has said he doesnt think Mourning will ever play a game for the Raptors, and Aaron Williams is averaging a grand total of 2 points a game this year. We get one player.

Oh yeah, did I mention that Mourning wont ever play for the Raptors, and Eric Williams specifically signed with New Jersey because he's from... New Jersey, and really loves it there.

What I do like:

Um, Eric Williams is pretty decent

Chris Bosh will at least get some help

Maybe we can draft Rashad McCants, who's basically VC 2 (and a Tar Heel as well) and might come out this year as a junior.

Basically we traded away the best player in franchise history for: a 32 year old small forward, a couple of bodies and some mediocre draft picks. All of you who say Carter always sucked, are frankly full of (#@%. We dont really have a playoff team this year, because we have very little scoring now.

And now it looks like we might send Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall to Miami for Eddie Jones and Dorell Wright, a young un.

I do not like this trade.

If we could keep Marshall and slot in Araujo and a 2nd round pick, that'd help make up for the boner by Babcock in drafting Araujo. Wright still ain't no Jefferson/Allen/Iguodala/Telfair but I think he's a better bet than Araujo.

I don't know where you read the Jalen/Donyell for Eddie/Dorell trade, but if its above, that person got it off a forum somewhere.

If that would to happen, I would love it, its all about the future of the team, Jalen makes too much, and Eddie's contract comes off the books asap. Dorell Wright is a young and exciting nba player w/ tonz of up side, that is what I was looking for in the Vince Carter trade.

Make it happen Babcock, please. You need to get rid of Zo as well, for an expiring contract, and hurry.

This trade was decent. Lie to yourselves all you want. Carter was emotionally and physically tanking on purpose. To him, there was absolutely no reason to up his trade value. He knew his moving was an inevitability and was not going to help a GM that he didn't want in the first place.

I know it's a cliche, but the boy was tha king of putting up 20 and giving up 30. Sure, the same could be said about Jalen, but V had defensive ability and chose not to use it. V is a shiny, decorative, knucklehead and no other GMs were going to trade value for him.

It's really about cap flexibility, not necessarily cap space. The 2 W's and Zo (to a lesser extent, obviously) are going to be commodities. It wouldn't even break my heart if they stuck around.

Finally, V will undoubtedly have a ltd. resurgence in NJ. Big deal. It wasn't going to happen here, whether he was physically able or not. For those concerned with shiny baubles instead of actual improvement, go stare @ your Xmas tree for an hour.

Anders thats a rough assesment mostly because of the EXCESS of Perimeter pure shooters we have. We are in the position we are in because of our league worst Defense.

Carter was a douchebag by the end of his time in TO, injured all the time and his heart was always in question (rightfully so).

If you believe that the Raps as constituted now are close to winning, or even making the playoffs, you're kidding yourself.

Well, they're not that far off playing .500 basketball and making the playoffs in the Eastern Conference, which is still a lot weaker than the West.

All in all, I don't like the trade. It's a random collection of talent, and two low-round picks, for a star player. As was pointed out above, this is a downgrade in terms of talent.

If Mourning could still play, it would be a much better deal - in Mourning's last full season in 01/02, he was still an effective player, though not the superstar of his prime. But he can't play anymore, and so he's just a big fat contract obligation.

I'd rather keep and play Carter.

I agree with Craig's assessment. I don't like the trade at all.

I'm curious as to whether Babcock simply had no better offers or whether he perceived this to be a good offer. If it's the former, then he still made a bad decision in moving Carter at all. If it's the latter, then maybe we ain't got a great GM.

Thanks for the memories Vince, you'll always be appreciated in my book.

The greatest athlete ever in Toronto sports history has just been traded, simply b/c the organization utterly failed to provide him with a decent supporting cast. Not one true decent center, not one talented point guard, not even a consistent energetic coach, did Vince have to play with.

We anointed him the franchise when he arrived and he carried a miserable team and previously basketball-stupid city with his energy and incredible talent. The only other star-caliber teammate he ever had bolted to Florida the first chance he had. Coaches came and went, but he stayed in Toronto.

What did Vince do while he was here that earned the savage criticism that surrounds him now?

Let's see, did he:
- get charged with sexual assault or abuse?
- get in the news for drug possession?
- get arrested for fighting or refusing to leave a nightclub?
- ever has his name mentioned around a shooting or stabbing?
- lie and say he'd consider signing with Toronto and then bolt home?
- have illegitimate children pop up with regularity?
- keep his time and money all to himself, without recognizing others?
- have an ego so big he'd refer to himself in the 3rd person as "the Vince?"
- drive drunk and smash his car into a restaurant?
- feud with his coaches and teammates?

No, he didn't. He was as model a citizen as you could ask for, and that was one of the reasons why he fit this city like a glove.

Except that is, until he got hurt. And after he showed his humanity, and tried to tone down his game so he wouldn't be as likely to get hurt again, the media circled for the kill. Toronto media is smart, in the sense that most of them realize they don't know a thing about basketball (with a few exceptions). So instead of being exposed while trying to actually write about the game, or how to improve the team, or on plays or winning strategies, they figured it'd be easier and more interesting to sell papers and going after Vince while he was down.

It didn't matter that there was no team around Vince, or that people have flaws (some players, Vince included, don't have a high pain threshold) which are part of who they are, and that Vince isn't even the highest paid player on the team, or that he's had 4 different coaches in his still-young career. Vince is like a magnet for attention, and when he's not 100%, it's like the vultures were hovering.

Media were writing and stating on talk radio 2 years ago that the Raptors should trade Vince. LONG before Vince suggested this summer that a trade might help, the media (and many fans) were pushing to get him out of the city. And it's those SAME fans who act so indignant after Carter asked for a trade. Hypocrites rarely see the irony in their actions.

Vince isn't a perfect guy, and nor is he the top-3 NBA player he once was. But at 70%, he's still twice the contributor of most players, and I wish him success in his new team and city. He made me a basketball fan, and though I'll continue to follow the raptors, it just doesn't feel the same. The thrill is gone ladies and gentlemen, the thrill is gone.

The thrill? Man, get a life. Yes, he is a solid citizen. His salary, however, was paid for a significant contribution toward his team winning more games than they lost.

V's M.O. was always obvious, he believed in his hype, not his team. This was never more obvious than at last year's ASG. Ailing (when was he not) just one week prior to the exhibition, not having played for his own team in any meaningful capacity (if at all) for the 1st half of the season, what does V do? He puts on an amazing display of skill and athleticism for Jay Z, Beyonce and Justin Timberlake. Oh and BTW, he struggled with nagging injuries for most of March and April.

Solid citizen? Granted. Solid Pro???

I really think this is a brutal trade by the raptors cause they are getting rid of their frachise player and guys watch the attendence go down big time.

What did Vince do while he was here that earned the savage criticism that surrounds him now?

Again, I was a proponent of trading him, but alot of the personal criticism he has endured was simply unwarranted.

Between The Star's article regarding his grandmother (who wasn't invited to his wedding; so what?!) and the public slamming he endured for attending his college graduation, it's amazing he didn't snap in public.

The graduation thing is particularly retarded. I suppose he could've stayed in his hotel room and played video games or watched porn like the rest of the guys do in the morning... instead, he fulfills a life-long promise and attends a once-in-a-lifetime event that has NO BEARING on his work and he gets raked over the coals.

Ridiculous. It's exactly the kind of behaviour that the NBA wants to promote and he's vilified.

Anyway, this is all a moot point. Obviously, it was time for Carter to move on... my beef is that Babcock, much like the 8th slot in the draft, did not get maximum value for an asset. In this case, it was his chief asset... his opportunity to reshape the team. There were no shortage of writeups this morning questioning whether he did as well as he could have.

The most optimistic analysts (including extreme but lovable homer Chuck Swirsky) are taking a "let's wait and see what he does with the rest of the roster" approach.

It's times like these when I wish basketball had the same kind of rigorous analytical bent that baseball enjoys in some circles. Carter certainly has his flaws (some serious), but even at his worst, he had the potential to impact a game in a very rare way... It was this potential and various GMs seeming willingness to realize it (again) that I feel Babcock undervalued....

Boos - you actually think Carter is more selfish than other NBA stars?? Wow, I wonder what you think of Kobe, Shaq, McGrady, Iverson, and pretty much every other good player.

Carter, if anything, shared the ball MORE than he should have. He was never criticized for not passing to the open man - even when the open man usually missed the shot.

MiVulgar, you make a good point. Critics bringing up things that had no relevance to the situation. Another example was the fuss about him dancing on stage at a Nelly concert while injured - could anyone actually be so dense to think that dancing requires even 1% of the physical demands of NBA level basketball? Even someone who plays streetball with the local kids realizes it's can't be compared with dancing!!

It'll be interesting to see what they write and complain about now. I predict it'll be how Chris Bosh is too passive and should play more like Wendel Clark...

Well-said, Thrill and MiVulgar. I also was a proponent of trading Carter, but this trade is ridiculous. For those saying that Babcock couldn't have gotten any more, I refer you to the rumours from Portland, Memphis, and New York - which had various levels of fit for the team, but universally had more talent than this offer. Quite frankly, this is worse for the Raptors than any rumour I heard, and that's saying something.
Two mid-low first-round picks is worth far less than 1 decent young player would have been. And since Aaron Williams isn't an upgrade from anyone on this roster, and Babcock apparently doesn't expect Zo to play, we basically have Vince for Eric Williams and two crapshoot draft picks. Williams is a decent player, but that is a horrible trade.

Is V more selfish than those aforementioned stars? That's not for you or I to answer. But I do know that defenders pay CONSIDERABLY less respect to V than any other star, perhaps in the last 20 years. Why? Because he is not a Pro. I am taller and stronger than Iverson, but his heart dwarfs your boy V.

Every single one of those players has helped their teams win more than they lost. Two have won championships, one has carried his team to the finals and the other well, Mcgreedy, for all his faults, makes his defenders sweat bullets.

Carter is like that baseball power hitter that wins HR derbys but let's pitchers off easy, swinging for BS.

Has anyone else noticed that the only time V looks determined is in; the first/last minute of a game, when he hits jump shots or gets a dunk.

When his man on D abuses him he looks confused. When his shots hit rim, he looks incredulous. When his defender knocks him down he looks (emotionally) hurt. That, to anyone that bothers to notice, is called a Poser. Not a Winner.

BTW, not only do defenders manhandle Vince, they laugh at him in his face. The same, you misguided soul, cannot be said about McGreedy, Iverson, Kobe or especially Shaq.

The value of this trade will be determined by V's health. If he gets back to his old self playing with Kidd in NJ, than you are a prophet. If , however, it's more of the same injured and indifferent waste of ability? Two draft picks, 15 ppg, 12 rpg, salary relief and Cancer removal is a steal.

So you're basically saying Carter plays better when motivated - wow, really going out on a limb huh?

If you haven't noticed, most games aren't decided until the last few minutes, and all players turn it up then. And of course teams need defensive intensity and respect - something the raptors haven't had since Oakley left.

Let's see how intense Mourning plays when he gets here.. oh wait, he doesn't even want to come, does he?

By the way, even Shaq didn't win a title until he had Phil Jackson and Kobe. McGreedy played worse defense than Carter last year and then demanded a trade. Iverson's big heart has forced out every other skilled player and last year's title winning coach. You can't just pick and choose a player's good qualities and ignore the baggage that comes with it. Unless you're past misguided and veering on delusional....

Bottom line, as someone else observed, we traded Vince for the williams sisters, 2 lottery-protected picks, and 22 million of baggage in 'zo. We couldn't even bundle Rose's contract with Vince??

The scary thing is that next year, we'll all still be focused on Vince, instead of wondering how we can get attendance past 11,000 at the ACC.

"...defenders pay CONSIDERABLY less respect to V than any other star, perhaps in the last 20 years"

Heehee... yes, that explains the double and triple teams, that no other Raptor ever got.

The net of this is, that no other player ever took the Raptors (and us) as high, and as long as Vince. Damon bolted as soon as Isaiih Thomas was gone. Number 2 pick overall Camby was overhyped, fragile, happy to leave. Antonio Davis just took the money, while plotting to leave as soon as humanly possible. We already discussed McGreedy who left the raptors empty-handed. Jerome Williams had heart and loved it here, but not co-incidentally lacked in talent (guys like this are pretty common). Alvin Williams had too much heart and not enough foresight (and cartilage).

If the Raptors management had put together a solid team around Vince (with at least 1 other star player, like all good NBA teams), with consistent coaching instead of the TO turnstile, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Instead we fielded teams that couldn't play .500 when Vince was gone (1-24 is the record in the past 25 games without him), so we blamed him for getting hurt and missing games. Then we blamed him for not being aggressive enough when playing games. After a few years of being the scapegoat, he decided it was time to leave. I'd bet it was a few years more than you would have stuck around.

"Hee Hee"?, man get a life. Have you heard the Seattle story? This is the type of solid citizen you're stroking.

No, I haven't heard of the Seattle story. But I'm sure it had more truth to it than the fiction you're telling yourself.

Maybe you can start with what exactly Vince did to harm you so grieviously anyways....

On the TSN broadcast they mentioned a newspaper report that Carter was tipping plays to Seattle during a Sonics game. Anyone seen a link to it online?

http://www.cbc.ca/story/sports/national/2004/12/19/Sports/cartertip041219.html
COMN for the answer to my own question.

Wow, that stinks.

Sounds like more biased, bandwagon-jumping speculation to me. Not referring to you, Hank, I mean the article itself. There's no evidence, nor context.

I just read this article which summed up better than I could my own feelings towards Vince:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?id=1948464

There's no evidence, nor context.

That's true. The article itself quotes more than one person wondering why he'd do it in the first place. However, either three Sonics or the writer of the original article must be either badly mistaken or lying.

However, if it's true it could shed some additional light on why they made this trade, right now.

I dunno, there's so many possibilities, and that Vince would knowingly blow a game doesn't match his character (or motive, as this would hurt his reputation and respect from other players and GMs).

The article doesn't quote first-hand any sonic who says that... just comments on hearsay.

As for context, it could range from Shaq telling someone he's going to post him up and dunk on him (and then doing it), or reverse psychology (the play worked), or even something that sounds like 'flare play' but isn't.

Speculation like this without first getting to the solid truth is reckless...

The article doesn't quote first-hand any sonic who says that... just comments on hearsay.

The CBC report says that three Sonics confirmed the incident without naming them. I'd like to see the original article to see if it names them or not. Also, I'd like to know who the author of the original is and how their work is usually regarded. If they're a muckraker, we can obviously discount much of it.

What I'd really like to see is tape from the game. Hopefully the sports highlight shows tonight will dig it out and show what can be seen.

Wow, Leo Rautins has been taking it to Carter today.

I missed it...what'd he say?

Leo said what all of us have wanted to say on the air in the last couple years. He just said that he felt Vince was dogging it in Toronto to get a ride, he basically questioned Vince's morals as a basketball player.

Nothing that shouldn't have been said, I hope Vince was listening, b/c its true. I have commented a lot on how the trade was brutal, but yes Vince had to go. I just wish they could've got expiring contracts in return, they have a deep team, they don't need any more role players.

Hopefully they can package the draft picks to get a superstar type player next summer, or at least a higher draft pick.

http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/story/4352101p-4123627c.html
COMN for the original article.

Asked why Carter would reveal the play, the Sonics member said, “We were all under the impression that he was sabotaging his team because he was getting booed by the fans and he wanted to get traded.”

I'm confused. Why would this story come to light now, when it allegedly happened a while ago?

At this point, I don't really care what happened. Carter isn't in Toronto any more.

Ironically, the article states that the Raptors scored on the play, so maybe whatever Carter said worked. :-)

NJ is taking one helluva RI$$K

That play-tipping thing is moronic - he tipped a play that he himself was handling the ball in? Wouldn't simply screwing up the play have been enough to lose the game if that's what he was doing? And what would Carter have to gain if the game was lost, anyway?
I can't believe such idiocy is being reported. There isn't a single professional athlete on the planet who would do such a thing.

The salaries work, would the Grizz be interested in Rose and Mourning? A couple of veterans and a shake-up for a dissapointing team. Rose and 'Zo for Posey, Wright, and Wells is the deal I am proposing as a possibility (this is about as solid (BBRS) as bad fountain pop write now ~ just something I made up.

Write = Right. I am sleepy. Good Night

Zo can't be traded until Feb 16th, 2005 under the CBA.

Zo can't be traded, and Jerry West would have to be drunk to accept that trade. That being said I would love to see Bonzi & Posey in Raptor Uniforms.

Why can't ZO be traded?

Rasheed was traded like a week after his trade from Portland last year.

The greatest athlete ever in Toronto sports history has just been traded, simply b/c the organization utterly failed to provide him with a decent supporting cast. Not one true decent center, not one talented point guard, not even a consistent energetic coach, did Vince have to play with.



Sure, his teammates have been terrible.

But there's not much I could say to you if you really believe he's the greatest athlete in Toronto's history or that he could possibly have been traded for any other reason than the Raptors' sucking somehow despite his "play."

VC and a lot of 20+ scorers on bad teams who play questionable defense but who are very popular anyways = Derek Jeter

Who is a better athlete then? Note I didn't say sports figure or player, as these are debatable. But in terms of athleticism, no question in my mind.

Of course Vince's defense in general is lacking (though his 4Q D is markedly better), which is what separates him from the Jordan's and Bryant's of the world.

But he was (and can be) a superstar - witness his leading the olympic team in scoring - even on that team he was the go to guy.

The Jeter comparison in that light is actually pretty fair. But I think most anti-Vince folks feel he's more like a Mo Vaughn or worse... and that's not right.

"We anointed him the franchise when he arrived and he carried a miserable team and previously basketball-stupid city with his energy and incredible talent. The only other star-caliber teammate he ever had bolted to Florida the first chance he had. Coaches came and went, but he stayed in Toronto...What did Vince do while he was here that earned the savage criticism that surrounds him now?"

Damn. I know there's no hockey and this team has your blood boiling, but some people in this city actually play Ball.

"previously basketball-stupid city" ????

Damn. Speak for yourself. Go subscribe to YES if you want your fix of Thrills.

"The only other star-calibre teammate he ever had bolted" ???

So what. Maybe V was just too dumb to notice that McGrady was Jordan, not Pippen. Hog tha spotlight a lil less and maybe he stays. V will be a Mama's boy till tha day he dies. The parallels are obvious.

"Coaches came and went, but he stayed" ??

You Can't Fire Tha Player. Ever heard of that? Well, V just got fired. They; 1.) Cracked tha whip.
2.) Relaxed tha discipline
3.) Slowed tha O down to a crawl
4.) And finally, installed a Run & Gun O

Thrill, what else do you want? All V will ever be is a Show Off, not a Winner! If this sport is too confusing for you, turn tha TV off.

BTW, it's obvious that this trade will work out tremendously.

I have a Zo contract/trade update.

I asked a fellow fan why he couldn't be traded until Feb 16th but Sheed got traded twice last year in a span of a few days. I was told Zo could be traded by himself or with picks but not with other players.

The NBA CBA is very confusing.

The Jeter comparison in that light is actually pretty fair. But I think most anti-Vince folks feel he's more like a Mo Vaughn or worse... and that's not right.

I guess it depends on how much you like Jeter--I thought you'd be madder I made that comparison. And comparing VC to Jeter is not fair to Jeter admittedly.

VC as the best athlete in Toronto's history? Kelly Gruber would tell you otherwise.

In all seriousness, he was the best player in the Raptors history with the caveat that McGrady's accomplishments since leaving the Raptors are perhaps ineligible as they weren't done in a Raptors jersey.

But any number of Leafs would rate higher as would potentially a significant number of Jays, not the least of which would be Alomar, Bell, Steib, Henke, and Delgado.

And if performance career wise, overall is counted (meaning also the years not in a Toronto uniform), VC wouldn't rate very highly for me at all: the Grant Fuhrs, Glenn Andersons, Rickey Hendersons, Hakeem Olajuwons, and Dave Stewarts of the city's history would dump VC far down the list.

VC was offensively brilliant for a couple of years before his driving disappeared. Then, his scoring was not substantial enough to make up for the wholes in his game. He started to play a game he was not particularly adept at--Ray Allen's or Allen Houston's, the jump shooter. His contract made his performance a negative even though it was still valuable to have a guy whose low shooting percentage remained unchanged at the end of a game when good defences can render other scorers totally ineffectual. Maybe if he hadn't gotten hurt dunking so much, maybe if he had of taken real pride in his defense, maybe if he had had one superior or even equal teammate for longer than was McGrady's stay, maybe if, maybe if....But I'm not sad he's gone. Not at all.