Here's what I posted earlier yesterday, funnily enough before the trade-that-didn't-happen-yet business:

You know, we need some kind of Batter's Box Rumor Rating System (BBRRS). As I envision it, each poster could subjectively decide on a comparative solidness of the rumor that they are posting, based on its likelihood and the source, and append that to the end of their post.

Totally fake examples:

The Associated Press is reporting that so-and-so has signed for such-and-such with whomever would get a BBRRS rating of cement, or perhaps wet cement if it seemed unlikely.

Marty York is reporting that someone is about to sign for something with someone would probably get a BBRRS rating of Spinach dip.

Some guy on fanhome says the Jays have signed Beltran would get a BBRRS rating of watery coffee if the poster was feeling generous.

Feel free to modify or adapt this concept to fit your own posts.

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1103279682222531.xml
The Cleveland Plain Dealer is reporting that Matt Clement has eliminated 2 teams from the running and that he will make his decision this morning. Cleveland, Boston, LA, and Anaheim are still reported in the running. The Blue Jays are not mentioned. COMN for details.

I heard a rumour that a big-name player is going to be traded for another big name player, but apparently the team he's being traded to wants to try and sign an even bigger name player first.

Frankly, I think that's a stupid move. ;)

I asked this earlier, but I wanted to ask it again on this thread. Is there any new news on Clement signing anywhere?

And if Delgado signs with the Mets for 3 yrs $30, will I be the only who's upset that the Jays didn't try to offer something along those lines, considering it looks like that Jays are willing to offer 24-27 million for 3 yrs to Clement?

With similar players who were injured last year getting $12 million/yr I can't see Delgado getting $10 million. The Mets and Orioles would seemingly still be interested, and I imagine the Dodgers would be interested as well, especially if they trade Green so the demand is high enough where Delgado wouldn't have to 'settle' for $10 million.

I haven't seen anything on Clement yet. While part of me wishes he'd hurry up and decide alredy, in fairness to him, he's deciding where he wants to work for the next several years, and this is the first time in his career he's been able to make that choice.

It's all speculation, of course, but between the CPD article and JP's comment the other day that his gut tells him they're out of the running, I'd now be very surprised if Clement signed with the Jays. I do think that once Clement decides, the Jays will probably move ahead on a number of fronts.

I can't see Delgado signing anywhere for just $10M a year, not after the deal Sexson got from the Mariners. I predicted 5 years at $70M a few days ago; I now think he'll get fewer years but more money. Four years at $60M seems likely enough.

And if Delgado signs with the Mets for 3 yrs $30, will I be the only who's upset that the Jays didn't try to offer something along those lines, considering it looks like that Jays are willing to offer 24-27 million for 3 yrs to Clement?

A number of posters have expressed the opinion that the Jays' offer of 2 years/$12 million for Delgado was too low, and have questioned the relative offers to Clement and Delgado. I suggested that an offer of 3 X 11 would have been appropriate. At this point though, the best thing is to wait and see what JP is able to do with his remaining payroll room. It might very well be that he is able to arrive at a 1b/3b combination better than Delgado/Hinske when all is said and done.

So if Clement is a no-go. JP said the Jays would look at getting some offense. I'd think getting Alou at this point in his career would be apretty weak pick up. Am I the only one who really thinks Magglio will put up huge numbers again? Also, I still think Odalis Perez is a better pitcher than Clement, Leiber, Ortiz, and the other pitchers who has signed huge contracts....but that's just my humble opinion

"At this point though, the best thing is to wait and see what JP is able to do"

But speculating, worrying, and rumour mongering is way more fun!

Yeah, I'm with Acker. Why does Odalis Perez get no love? I can't figure it out. Especially considering it seems he would be a budget wise signing compared to Clement. I'm somewhat surprised the Jays have not approached him yet. If someone could offer some arguments as to why he has not attracted more attention, I'd would really like to hear them.

Odalis has maturity question marks, his stuff is not as good as it was when he first came up, his strikeout rates have dropped the last three years and he's a No. 3 starter looking for No. 1 money.

I'm somewhat surprised the Jays have not approached him yet.

Shhh, if other teams know that the Jays are interested, he'll get more expensive.

Odalis' ERA has been greatly helped by his context (park, league and defence). Josh Towers would probably put up sweet numbers if he found himself in a Dodger uniform.

Odalis has maturity question marks
So do I.

he's a No. 3 starter looking for No. 1 money

So is Clement.

Nah, Clement has most strike out potential, he has more experience, he's more consistent and he has hit the 200 inning plateau more often.
I'm not saying I wouldn't welcome Perez to the Jays at a modest price but there are reasons why everyone is not knocking down his door.

And yes, LA is a good pitcher's park, as is - I believe - Atlanta.

apprently the rumor has it that Odalis is not a good clubhouse guy. Can't remember where I read it

If someone could offer some arguments as to why he has not attracted more attention, I'd would really like to hear them.

He gives up a lot of HRs. His ERA was unusually low for his periherals this year.

His ERA was unusually low for his periherals this year.

So was Carl Pavano's, but he still got the big payday.

Lee Sinins (BBRRS = granite) reports:

The Braves traded LF Eli Marrero and cash to the Royals for P Jorge Vasquez.

Does this make any sense to anyone from the Braves perspective? I know the Royals need a C after dealing Santiago to the Bucs, but what do we know about this Vasquez kid? Marrero is a nice solid complementary player. Did Schuerholz think he was getting an unbelieveable deal on J. Vazquez or something?

If someone could offer some arguments as to why he has not attracted more attention, I'd would really like to hear them.

He gives up a lot of HRs. His ERA was unusually low for his periherals this year.

Those may be reasons not to want the Jays to sign him, but I don't get the impression that they're the kind of things that would scare most teams away.

Also, as suggested by someone else here a little while ago, I think that Perez's really ugly playoff performance (8 H, 4 HR, 7 BBs in 5 IP!) is hard for many GMs to forget. He has given up a lot of HRs in recent years both at and away from LA... probably not the kind of guy you want facing the Yanks, Sox, and O's on a regular basis.

FWIW, here's a couple references to him complaining about his lack of run suppport (probably the kind of things that come from a "bad clubhouse" guy):

ESPN Profile
Game 1 Summary

Oh, and ESPN has him listed at 6'0, 150 lbs?!?!

It is now afternoon in the East and no word about Clement. Is he still in ellay? My guess is he'll sign with the Dodgers but it's conditional on Shawn Green moving out to create room in the payroll.
I listened to XTRA last night and he's under the radar, it's all Kobe down in Sodom. Watery coffee.

Just heard on the FAN that Bobby Mattick has passed away in Arizona of a stroke. It must have been sudden since he was at the meetings in Anaheim last week. He was 89.

We've set up a new thread to pay tribute to Bobby's legacy.

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=59312
Clement rumours from Red Sox perspective, COMN.

While Alou is a servicable verteran, he would not be my first choice for the following reasons:

1. his .316 OBP and .400 SLG on the road last year scare the hell out of me
2. he's 79 years old
3. his 2002 and 2003 seasons were not spectacular
4. he has had a hard time staying healthy throughout his career

That being said, I would prefer him in the line-up over Eric Hinske.

Those are all legitimate reasons, but Perez is not looking for #1 starter money. ESPN seems to think he will not be commanding the sort of big contract that Clement will. It might be worth the risk, better than say, Shawn Estes, a guy with no upside.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/baseball/mlb/12/17/pedro.redsox.ap/index.html?cnn=yes
Pedro ripped a new one into the Red Sox.

He called Theo "arrogant". Didn't want to be the number 2 guy behind Schil.

He said Epstein treated his agent, Fernando Cuza, poorly during negotiations.

"Theo got really arrogant on Fernando and I didn't appreciate it," Martinez said. "Theo believed that he had me and wasn't the nicest man communicating with Fernando."

He said Red Sox manager Terry Francona played a small role in managing the team, taking his cues from the team's front office.

"Francona is subject to what they decide," Martinez said. "Francona had no say, like he didn't have any say in managing the team. He was manipulated from upstairs."

Asked for evidence to back that assertion, he said, "I was in the clubhouse, that's how I know."

I wonder how diehard Red Sox fan will react to these harsh comments?

I wouldn't be opposed to the Jays looking into signing Odalis Perez either. If he can be had for a reasonable amount of money, I think he would be good sign.

If you look at his splits he was just as good on the road as he was at home, therefore you can't give his home park all the credit for his numbers. I do think his home runs allowed could be a concern, but his WHIP is fabulous.

If you look at

Jeff Blair was on the Score last night and he reported that J.P said that if they don't land Clement, then the focus will go towards a new bat. He mentioned waiting until the monday freeagency period. He also said that when names like Milton, Perez and Estes are mentioned to J.P he gives a shrug of disinterest. I don't know how liable this all is so pls don't bite my head off!!:)

Those are all legitimate reasons, but Perez is not looking for #1 starter money.

What are you asking... WHY Perez isn't getting the attention Clement et. al are getting, or whether he SHOULD be getting it? I think both have been answered.

Anyone's a good risk at the "right price". He could be in a "lower tier" with guys like El Duque or Lima, other guys who aren't being talked about much now, because their destinations might depend on where the bigger names (Clement, Milton, Lowe, etc.) end up. Anybody know if Omar Daal might be healthy next year?

If you look at his splits he was just as good on the road as he was at home, therefore you can't give his home park all the credit for his numbers.

Try clicking on "2003" on that page and see what you get. In his three years in LA, his Home ERA was 2.92 and his Road ERA was 4.10.

No worries, T Dog, you did it just right -- told us where it came from and who said it.

He called Theo "arrogant".

Well, if I was the GM who put together the team that broke an 86 year drought, I'd be feeling a little cocky my own self.

Anyone want to bet that yesterday's big Rumour Adventure was the product of someone in the Yankees deliberately leaking something solely for the purpose of taking a bit of the shine off Pedro's big day in New York. Where did the story first appear? As far as I can tell, it was a piece by John Heyman in Newsday that set off the frenzy...

Question,

How many people think clement is waiting and waiting to entice higher offers... after all he jumped from 6 Million/year to 8 Million/year in a week.

"Francona is subject to what they decide," Martinez said. "Francona had no say, like he didn't have any say in managing the team. He was manipulated from upstairs."

Is this a bad thing??? They won the World Series! Who cares if they trained a monkey to manage last year if it was proven to be that effective.

Anyone want to bet that yesterday's big Rumour Adventure was the product of someone in the Yankees deliberately leaking something solely for the purpose of taking a bit of the shine off Pedro's big day in New York. Where did the story first appear? As far as I can tell, it was a piece by John Heyman in Newsday that set off the frenzy...

Why does this remind me of baseball's version of LA Confidential? There was also much speculation that last year's "Manny's on waivers" story also had its origins in New York.

< steinbrenner voice > Cashman, get on the phone! Hire that monkey! < /steinbrenner voice >

The Cleveland Plain Dealer is reporting that Matt Clement has eliminated 2 teams from the running and that he will make his decision this morning. Cleveland, Boston, LA, and Anaheim are still reported in the running. The Blue Jays are not mentioned. COMN for details.

Rich, it seems like whenever I read a story about Clement, the Jays are not mentioned at all (not even as having been eliminated from contention). I was hoping that it was just typical American media bias, but it certainly doesn't look like a good thing for us.

Is this a bad thing??? They won the World Series! Who cares if they trained a monkey to manage last year if it was proven to be that effective.

Well, I should think that there is a decent reason why manager and GM have traditionally been separate position in MLB. It seems that most of the so-called "Moneyball" GMs are accused of hiring managers to act simplay as their puppets (see the article posted here recently which quoted Carlos Tosca on being given significant "direction" during his tenure in Toronto). Certainly, it is not unheard of for one person to fill both positions in other sports (Gregg Popovich acts as basically both head coach and GM with the Spurs from what I've heard, and they've been pretty successful), but if Epstein wants to call all the shots, he should bloody well put on a manager's uniform and go down to the dugout, so that he will be held responsible for his decisions. On the other hand, it may just be that I've always found Epstein more than mildly irritating. On the third hand, I pretty much hate the Red Sox anyways; I think Damon declaration that they are a clubhouse full of idiots is rather appropriate.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3679
For more Yankee psychedelia, try Baseball Prospectus' triple play. COMN.

I think that kevin millwood might be a great low cost pickup for the jays

Odalis has maturity question marks, his stuff is not as good as it was when he first came up, his strikeout rates have dropped the last three years and he's a No. 3 starter looking for No. 1 money.

Still, he's at least got to be worth similar money to, say, Russ Ortiz, doesn't he? Then again, Ortiz is worth MAYBE half what the D'backs paid him. Oritz is the definition of a guy who wins, but seems to do it with smoke and mirrors.

http://tsn.ca/nba/news_story.asp?id=108372
Don't mean to hijack but ESPN is reporting Vince Carter is close to being dealt the Nets for Alonzo Mourning, Eric Williams, Aaron Williams, and 2 first round picks.

Don't mean to hijack but ESPN is reporting Vince Carter is close to being dealt the Nets for Alonzo Mourning, Eric Williams, Aaron Williams, and 2 first round picks.

Thanks for the update Ron. If this happens, great. VC did a lot for the Raptors as a franchise and we should thank him for that, but recently he's been an injury-prone malcontent with a severe downward performance trend. If Zo stays healthy, he will give the Raps the real inside presence that they have always lacked. Honestly, this seems like a really badly one-sided deal in the Raps' favor.

It is now High Noon on the Coast as the baseball universe as the baseball universe, collectively holding it's breath as it awaits Clement's decision, slowly begins to turn blue in the face...

It is now High Noon on the Coast as the baseball universe as the baseball universe, collectively holding it's breath as it awaits Clement's decision, slowly begins to turn blue in the face...

I was supposed to hold my breath???

*holds breath*

*checks watch*

*continues to hold breath*

Hurry up Clement, I'm getting dizzy...

RE: Clement.

There seems to be a lot of Bauxites who want to see Clement become a Blue Jay. Fair enough.

But at what point is Clement too expensive for the Jays. At what salary point would a Clement signing make you say "That was a bad deal for the Jays"?

Millwood was apparently considering a 1 year 4 million offer from the braves but with Hudson going into Atlanta I think one or two years at 5 million would be a good signing for the jays. They would even have money left over.

Right about the time the offers went past $7M/yr.

There seems to be a lot of Bauxites who want to see Clement become a Blue Jay. Fair enough.

But at what point is Clement too expensive for the Jays. At what salary point would a Clement signing make you say "That was a bad deal for the Jays"?

As one of those who has been on getting Clement to TO, I think the cutoff should be the point where signing Clement would handcuff the Jays in terms of being able to sign or trade for another halfway decent bat and some much-needed bullpen help. Of course, if there's a good chance we could move a contract like Hinske or Batista to get that bat or reliever(s), that would help a lot. If signing Clement would prevent us from addressing those other IMO actually more urgent needs, I would be fine with Miguel rounding out the staring rotation.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1948449
Little more info on the potential VC trade. COMN

For those that know, does this provide any salary cap relief for the Raps?

As one of those who has been on getting Clement to TO, I think the cutoff should be the point where signing Clement would handcuff the Jays in terms of being able to sign or trade for another halfway decent bat and some much-needed bullpen help.

So what's that. 1 million? 1.5? :)

Just kidding, but in all seriousness, the Jays are a team with good starting pitching, but no hitting, and a below average bullpen. I still don't understand the need to blow all of the team's Delgado savings on pitching. Why not address your weaknesses instead of strengthening your strengths?

I agree with Blue. Given how much other SPs have gone for this off-season, I'd be surprised if he gets less than 9.

I'd be surprised if he gets less than 9.

In which case, I really hope he gets it from someone else...

"For those that know, does this provide any salary cap relief for the Raps?"

Mourning and Eric William's contract runs out in 07. Aaron Williams can opt out of his contract after this season.

Millwood had some elbow problems in the last part of the year which limited him to 25 starts. Does he have a clean bill of health? He always seems to have good peripherals. Might be worth a shot at 4-5M if healthy if you can put up with Boras as his agent.

Rotoworld has off and on and off hot prospect Bobby Jenks claimed on waivers by the ChiSox from Anaheim.

But at what point is Clement too expensive for the Jays. At what salary point would a Clement signing make you say "That was a bad deal for the Jays"?

This year's ridiculous contract may be next year's bargain at this point. STOP THE MADNESS!!!!

I just know that patching our offensive hole with some scotch tape (Alou)isn't gonna get us too far long term, so I'd rather try to make a definitive upgrade elsewhere. If JP thinks that is Clement and he seems to, then I'd be happy to have him at a couple million over what I think he deserves at the expense of a middle reliever being signed. In this market, he is gonna get more than he deserves. And we are stockpiling capable young relievers already.

http://www.tsn.ca/nba/news_story.asp?id=108372
TSN has it posted that the Carter trade is done. ESPN still says they're working on it.
COMN

There possibly comes a point where you might want to just say "Oh, the hell of it. The market this winter is nuts. Let's pass, and see what's cooking next year."

But because you can't save this year's money - if you don't use it, you lose it - that's why you sign an old guy like Moises to a one-year deal for a big whack of cash.

TSN has it posted that the Carter trade is done. ESPN still says they're working on it.

Looks like the cement is drying (BBRRS). I think it will be good for the team now that it's finally over with. Since Jalen doesn't seem to be going anywhere, hopefully the trade talk around him will all go away now. It seems to have affected him recently.

But because you can't save this year's money - if you don't use it, you lose it - that's why you sign an old guy like Moises to a one-year deal for a big whack of cash.

There's other ways you can spend it. Like taking some other team's problem contract if they throw in some prospects. Tyler was talking about that a week ago, and it's a pretty good idea if you can find an interested team.

The lastest from ESPN.com:

Air Canada finally can book his flight out of Toronto. New Jersey will acquire Vince Carter in exchange for Alonzo Mourning, Eric Williams, Aaron Williams and two first-round picks. The deal is complete and only awaits NBA approval.

Looks like Vince is just about gone.

The ESPN reporter who broke the story was on the FAN and said Miami is interested in Rose as part of a multi-player deal.

I can't wait to see 'Zo in a Raps jersey, I totally want one. He isn't nearly the player he once was but he's one of my all-time favorites and he still contributes in his limited minutes. 28 minutes as the starting center with 10 points, 7 boards and 2.5 blocks sounds good for the rest of this season (hopefully his contract can be moved for an expiring one if the Raps move out of the race or after the season). Eric Williams can contribute and Aaron is mostly just filler at this point. Move Rose for Jones now (Jones is unselfish, at least ... thats how I see it anyway) and the Raps will continue to lose, but I will like watching them more. If Vince gets his hops back how fun will it be to see him and RJ Oopin' JKidds Alleys?

The 2 first round picks are real nice... As long as Babcock doesn't go Michael Bradley (I realize that was Grunwald) over Randolph or Araujo over everyone else on us with them

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=rogers_phil&id=1947583
Phil Rogers at ESPN reminds us that one other shoe waiting to drop this winter is the Sammy Sosa situation. COMN. He suggests that one of the reasons the Beltran negotiation figures to take a lng time is because Boras wants the Cubs to be a bidder as well, but that won't happen until they get rid of Sosa.

Rogers runs through a number of rumoured Sosa deals, with the Mets, Orioles, Dodgers (?), Yankees (??), and Royals (???). I think if anyone will bite, it will be Omar.

There are a million Dominicans in New York, and one of them is the Mets GM. He just brought one national hero to town. Why not two?

It's probably not a great baseball move, but it ought to sell some tickets.

Well since VC has been finally dealt ..... I have a few memories....

Rather than bash him for his lack of effort this season and his great ability to get injured I would like to think of the positive times.

- His rookie season was magically. Who could forget that monster dunk on Dik and then waggin the finger at him.

- His dunk over Weis in Sydney. One of the most jaw dropping things I've ever seen in sports.

- The day that VC signed a long-term extension to stay with the Raps when the US media was telling VC he shouldn't waste his time in Canada.

- The dunk contest. Nuff said.

- The final positive memory I have is all the charity work that VC did for the city of Toronto. He donated a lot of his time and money to help the community and I'm thankful for that. VC has a good head on his shoulders and I wish him the best of luck with the Nets. Hopefully when he makes his return trip to the ACC the fans applaud and not boo Vince.

Multiplayer? Who do the Heat have that we could get along with Jones for , say, Rose and Peterson? Are Jones and Butler worth it? Jones, Butler, and a back-up center to help 'Zo (is Doleac their best? is his contract huge?).

Other than the Weis dunk which should be everybody's favorite, I am found of a one-handed alley oop, I think from Mo - Pete, against the Clippers in LA. He seemed to take off so early, and get up so high. I'm gonna miss *that* guy. '04 Vince, not so much.
I know it is in no way indicative of their talent, but Eric Williams isn't that far behind Vince on the stats this year.
Starting lineup of Alston-Rose/Jones-Marshall-Bosh-'Zo with Bonner, Peterson/pick-up, Palacio, and Woods on the bench sounds like fun to me.

Mourning is a huge health risk. I don't feel comfortable with this trade simply because Mourning makes so much money and can't play more then 25 mins a game.

If the trade goes through I don't see the team being that much better.

On to baseball. If Clement goes elsewhere who is left for Toronto to sign as an SP? Millwood, O.Perez, Estes, Milton, Lima... who else? I think a trade would produce a better #3 pitcher for this club unless Millwood signs for under $5M.

Also, if the 3 way deal goes through who does L.A have to hit? Jeff Kent and then who, Jason Werth? Look at their current lineup:

C - Brent Mayne
1B - Jeff Kent
2B - Alex Cora
SS - Cesar Izturis
3B - ???Duncan???
LF - Jason Werth
CF - Milton Bradly
RF - ???

I mean come on, who the hell can hit for power except for Kent? They need to sign Carlos Delgado at least becase there pitching isn't that good.

I believe he mentioned Rose and Marshall (as a sweetener in last year of contract) for Jones, Malik Allen or Wesley Person and Dorrel Wright.

I don't think the Raps get better, I am just excited that one of my all-time favorites is coming to the Raptors and no trade would have helped them contend this year anyway. Hopefully 'Zo continues his comeback season and ends up averaging 12/8 with 2.5 blocks in 28 minutes or so and Babcock manages to move him in the offseason or Mourning hates the cold Toronto winter so much, he tears up his contract to play with a winner ;-)

FYI Werth is having right elbow problems. He's trying rehab now but may need surgery. If so he may miss a big chunk of next season.

Mourning is a huge health risk. I don't feel comfortable with this trade simply because Mourning makes so much money and can't play more then 25 mins a game.

I guarantee he gets flipped as part of the ROSE multi-player deal, or another deal. He won't be here more than a few games. Mark it a zero, dude.

Grand Funk out.

Phil Rogers at ESPN reminds us that one other shoe waiting to drop this winter is the Sammy Sosa situation.

It isn't going to happen unless some GM goes completely nuts. Sammy's performance has sharply dropped off, he threw out his back sneezing, he makes a ton of money, and his incredible reduction in bulk last season is more than a little suspicious. He also has taken a PR hit with his early departure last season and the revelations that he isn't exactly loved in the clubhouse. From a baseball perspective, dealing for him makes no sense whatsoever unless the Cub pick up nearly all of his salary, which they're not going to do.

Who do the Heat have that we could get along with Jones for , say, Rose and Peterson?

Whoa there. I really hope Babcock isn't thinking about doing anything with Mo Pete. If he wants to take what he can get for Rose, so be it, but I think that Mo is one of the guys the Raps should be building around long term.

I mean come on, who the hell can hit for power except for Kent?

Well, Jayson Werth did hit 16 HR in 290 AB and slugged .486.

Milton Bradley hit 19 HR.

The much-maligned Hee Seop Choi hit .251 with 15 HR in 343 AB last year.

Even Alex Cora popped 10 HR.

The Dodgers out-homered their opponents 203-178 last year. Assuming both Beltre and Green are gone, that takes away 76 HR. But they don't need to make it all up, and a lineup where the power comes from a whole bunch of spots is certainly workable.

BTW Mourning is injured and will miss the Tor-NJ game on Sunday so both key players in the deal won't play. Mourning is also apparently not happy with the deal as he wants to go to a contender.

It seems if Clement doesn't sign they will move Batista back to the rotation and spend more money on bats and/or the bullpen. I guess they aren't compatible with Perez or Millwood who seem like pretty decent starting options themselves.

But at $8 or $9 million it might just be best to avoid the starting pitching market this season.

I've been pondering whether the Suns should make a move to acquire 'Zo since it started to look like they might amount to something. The obvious obstacles were his salary/health (it was reported recently that he felt like his body was breaking down) and, at least as long as he is/was a Net, whether the Suns could offer anything of interest to the Nets. Heck, could they even amke the salaries work? However, 'Zo wanted to move to a contender (check), he suggested after a recent game that he's now more suited to be a complementary player rather than a focal point (check), and he can still bang in the paint (check). I suspect that he's not going to be thrilled about the move to Toronto (contender? I think not) and I wondered if the Suns could intrigue the Raptors with Zarko, Jacobsen and the Bulls conditional no. 1 pick. I like the idea of having Mourning around to add another dimension to the team when it bumps into the Spurs. Of course, this won't happen because the Suns would need to send two more players the other way to make the salaries work (if the don't plan to break up the starting 5) and they're already thin on the bench (allegedly, I believe they've got some talent there but D'Antoni's content to let his starters run wild). In short, even if you're interested in the Suns, and many of you won't be, I've still wasted your time.

It seems if Clement doesn't sign they will move Batista back to the rotation and spend more money on bats and/or the bullpen.

As much as I like Clement in TO, in all honest that probably makes a lot more sense for the Jays.

Mourning is also apparently not happy with the deal as he wants to go to a contender.

Like I said, I guarantee he gets flipped.
Babcock surely has something waiting once this deal goes down, to appease 'Zo so the deal goes through.
Mark my words.

Some rambling thoughts, probably about to go on at great length:

- If the Yankees acquire Randy Johnson, they should repackage themselves as a 1990's nostalgia act, given that most of their players were at their peak in that decade. You could call their 2005 schedule the Yankeepolooza Tour, and play music by Lush, the Breeders, Suede, and the Lemonheads (among others) between innings.

- In a related comment: the Yankees will probably spend more on liniment and other soothing oils than many teams will spend on their entire pitching staff.

- From a baseball standpoint, Pedro Martinez's new contract is startlingly overexpensive, the sort of thing that makes it difficult for the owners to plead poverty when the next collective bargaining agreement negotiation takes place. Pedro will likely deliver one good season, one so-so season, and then break down like a rented mule. But the Mets are more concerned about battling the Yankees for control of the New York baseball market than they are about winning the NL East. If they can lure the attention of the typical New York baseball fan away from the Bronx to Shea, they will earn enough money to pay for five players as good as Pedro, but in their primes.

This reminds me of the last contract the Jays gave Delgado: from a baseball standpoint, it was too much money (even though Carlos delivered about as well as you could expect). But from a PR and goodwill standpoint, it was absolutely necessary; the team was losing free agents, and the writers were describing the Jays as a team in "free fall". (Now, they're describing the Jays as "beleaguered", which is a significant step in the right direction. :-))

- I really liked the Koskie signing. It was great to read of a player who actually wants to come to Toronto, and is eager to play here. I think both sides will be happy with this transaction.

But I fear that Certain Baseball Writers are falling down on the job - they missed a golden opportunity to rip the Jays yet again. There were no columns that started off something like this:

Does Corey Koskie know what he is getting into?

At his press conference, the newest Blue Jay mentioned that he had been a fan of the team growing up, and that he remembered exactly where he was when Joe Carter hit that game-winning home run. Does he not realize that the Jays of today are not the Jays he knew as a child? Is he not aware that the wise stewardship of the Labatt and Gillick era no longer exists?

We predict that once young Corey realizes that his new masters are penny pinchers obsessed with Moneyball-like egghead theories, and that he is trapped for at least three years on a ship that is sinking fast in the increasingly competitive American League East, he will be changing his tune soon enough.

And so on. *sigh* Reading some morning columnists is like swallowing a daily dose of castor oil. Except that the castor oil may be good for you.

- I have no real memory of Scott Downs, but You Can Never Have Too Much Pitching. The best way to build a quality 10-man pitching staff is to find 20 guys and throw out the worst ten. (Though, once you've found the good 10 guys, you have to assign definite roles to them, or your team becomes trapped in the Tosca Slough of Uncertainty, from which no man has yet returned.)

- And, to end on a hoops note: if Carter is gone, I'm happy that the Raptors got anything of value for him. I've always liked him, but the team were playing better when he was on the bench, and he clearly wanted out. It's never good to have a player on your team who doesn't want to be there.

Of course, Vince will magically turn back into the VC of old when he reports to his new team, but we in Toronto are used to that sort of thing.

Sorry about the length of this, but I thought it best to put it all into one easily-scroll-past-able-chunk. :-)

It isn't going to happen unless some GM goes completely nuts.

That would be my take as well. Someone nuts enough to... oh, sign a 33 year old pitcher with a tear in his labrum for four guaranteed years.:-)

Fun with numbers: Sammy's decline these last four years has been remarkably consistent right across the board. Anyone want to play Guess The Next Number In This Sequence?

GPL: 160, 150, 137, 126, ???
ATB: 577, 556, 517, 478, ???
Run: 146, 122, 99, 69, ???
Hit: 189, 160, 144, 121, ???
HR: 64, 49, 40, 35, ??
RBI: 160, 108, 103, 80, ???
BB: 116, 103, 62, 56, ???
AVG: .328, .288, .279, .253, ???
OBP: .437, .399, .358, .332, ???
SLG: .737, .594, .553, .517, ???
OPS: 1.174, .993, .911, .849, ???

That's... terrifying?

Got to admit, though. You have to be a pretty great player if you can lose two hundred points of slugging, one hundred points of on-base, seventy-five points of batting average, and 29 HRs... and still be a quality ML hitter at a corner outfield spot.

I'd hate to interupt the basketball talk on this baseball site......

This year's ridiculous contract may be next year's bargain at this point.

That's the kind of thinking that got the rediculous contracts back in 2000 - like Jason Kendall with the Pirates whose contract looked like a bargain at the time.

Someone nuts enough to... oh, sign a 33 year old pitcher with a tear in his labrum for four guaranteed years.:-)

Yep. As of right now, it would seem that only Minaya, and perhaps Garagiola if Arizona still has some of its new-found wealth left over, have proven themselves mentally unwell enough to consider this deal.

Got to admit, though. You have to be a pretty great player if you can lose two hundred points of slugging, one hundred points of on-base, seventy-five points of batting average, and 29 HRs... and still be a quality ML hitter at a corner outfield spot.

You're right, Sosa WAS a great player, but as the figures you list suggest, the prospects for the future are not bright, particular in light of what he's owed.

- In a related comment: the Yankees will probably spend more on liniment and other soothing oils than many teams will spend on their entire pitching staff.

I can see a Viagra advertisement featuring the whole team. Oh my God, when they release this year's team picture, I'm SO going to mock one up in Photoshop.

Can we get a new "boxing out" thread to discuss the Carter trade? It's tough to think about Baseball right now, and I know there's ppl who want to discuss the trade, but not in here.

I heard that Chad Ford was rumbling on NBA Insider that Q Richardson could be on the block. Spinning Zo and one of those shiny 1st round picks for him and I'll do jumping jacks. Throw in Mo-Pete (to take Joe Johnson's spot on the bench when he takes over for Q) and Suns throw in Zarko (or don't take the pick) and I'll do even more jumping jacks.
I am very excited to see 'Zo in T-O, but unless he is flipped for some serious expiring contracts or a legitimately good player this is a poor deal (unless the draft picks work out miraculously/the Ewing effect is true ;-)).

Viagra? I'm thinking even older than that:

I'd like to know where you heard Q was on the block, there's no way. Phx has the best record in the nba, and Q has been bombing for them. He's fit in so well, there's no way that he's on the block.

That's the kind of thinking that got the rediculous contracts back in 2000 - like Jason Kendall with the Pirates whose contract looked like a bargain at the time.

I'm well aware. It was a joke.

How about a new thread for "guess the 4th team"? With Green not wanting to go to the Diamondbacks and a rumoured fourth team involved in the ongoing Yankees-Arizona Big Unit circus, lets get the creative juices flowing on reasonable (?!) four or five (or more!) team deal that get the Randy to the Yankees.

I won't start because I have no idea how convoluted it could get. Bonus points if you involve a Japanese team!

Is it disturbing that I'm more nervous waiting on word from Clement whether he's signed here than my law exam that's in two hours?

C'mon already!!

Is it disturbing that I'm more nervous waiting on word from Clement whether he's signed here than my law exam that's in two hours?

He's not gonna sign here, man! Stop thinking about it! You got an exam to write!

There's now a VC thread awaiting your comments.

Fozzy,

Magpie's right. Don't worry about Clement. He'll be fine, the Jays will be fine. Get back to constructive trusts or adverse possession or pogg or whatever else it is you're supposed to be thinking about!

fair enough, consider it forgotten :)

From Jamey Newberg (BBRRS: cast iron):

The Rangers, according to the Associated Press, have signed first
baseman-DH Greg Colbrunn, a right-handed hitter, to a minor league deal with an invite to big league spring training.

Colbrunn has been named here several times as a potential platroon partner for Hinske at 1B. This pretty much means Texas will never bring back Brad Fullmer, for whatever that's worth.

This pretty much means Texas will never bring back Brad Fullmer, for whatever that's worth.

Oh, the humanity.

The White Sox continue to show their prowress for value. According to Rotoworld, they "signed outfielder Timo Perez to a one-year, $1 million contract." According to RW, the 30 year old hit .246/.285/.338 in 293AB in his first season with the White Sox. He's not a great defender, and he's a lousy basestealer.

For the $400,000 or so that Reed Johnson will cost, in comparison it looks like a great value for the Jays.

Fozzy, shouldn't you be studying? Or doing deep breathing exercises or something? Instead of hitting the Refresh button on Rotoworld every five minutes?

I should Magpie, but I don't think I'm going to be any more prepared than I already am. It's time to relax and wait to take the bus onto campus. To bide my time, Rotoworld refreshing :)

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1947995
Makes sense. Actually, my own priority before exams was not to study but to make sure I had a good night's sleep. I thought it was more important to be in good form than anything else...

Shawn Green is apparently the barrier to the Great RJ deal - he wants a contract extension in exchange for waiving the no-trade clause Jeff Moorad negotiated for him back in the day. COMN

Actually, I think the contract clause is now moot; at the end of 2004, Green became a 10 and 5 guy anyway.

I can see a Viagra advertisement featuring the whole team.

Wouldn't they have to bring Raffy Palmiero aboard? Heh heh.

What are you writing Fozzy?

Well, enjoy your exams, you'll enjoy them more when they're over. With my cosmology this morning, I finished my exams, and only one exam so brutal that all metaphors involve my ass.

Let me start by saying I may be an idiot.

However, after reading some threads at BTF it seems,

1) The Mets believe Piazza can't catch or play first base and want to unload him.

2) Pedro has put in a good word for 'Tek

3) The Mets are willing to eat some contract.

4) The Jays seem to have $9 million to spend if Clement doesn't sign here

5) Many feel the Jays biggest need is power righthanded bat.

Any thoughts?

Piazza would make a nice DH and 1B platoon with Hinske... for the right price of course :)

The Mets believe Piazza can't catch or play first base and want to unload him.

Unfortunately, he wants to catch. I mean, I'd love Piazza as a DH, but I just can't see him willing to do it.

Pedro: "We can put Piazza at first".

Do you think Pedro's winning over his new team with public comments like that?

It doesn't really matter what the Mets do. The Braves are going to win the NL East again, without a doubt.

I'm gonna go off on a limb here. So, let's say mike Piazza would be willing to sign here for the right price. Why not have a Piazza(R) and Myers(L)/Zaun(L/R) catching platoon with the odd man out platooning with Hinske.

I do realize that the defence being produced is not very good, but between Zaun, Myers, and Piazza, there isn't gonna be alot of defence going around anyways.

Mike Piazza would be willing to sign here for the right price.

Piazza is too good a hitter to platoon, and too bad a catcher to put behind the plate.

There's a DH spot open too.

I'd keep Piazza away from 1B. Catch him a few times a week and DH him the rest of the time.

I'd be all for that, assuming TPIR.

Actually, I think the contract clause is now moot; at the end of 2004, Green became a 10 and 5 guy anyway.

I've been wrong about things I was sure of before, but if Green is traded to Arizona he is no longer a 10 and 5 man. 10 and 5 means 10 in the big leagues, at least the last 5 with the same team. Since Green would now be a D-back, the "5" no longer applies.

if Green is traded to Arizona he is no longer a 10 and 5 man.

I think that's right, but until he is traded... he's 10 & 5

Not to address any particular point made in this thread ...

I think Green is fully entitled to demand a contract extension in exchange for waving the no trade clause. He wants to stay in So-Cal, and he has the no-trade clause - it'd be dumb of him not to parlay that clause into financial advantage if he could.

I doubt he'll get his way, meaning he'll remain a Dodger. That might be enough to scuttle the deal altogether.

Agent: Clement headed to Red Sox.

I'd keep Piazza away from 1B. Catch him a few times a week and DH him the rest of the time.

Exactly what I was thinking. As far as I know his catching isn't that bad, just his throwing. Don't start him vs. the Rays and he should be capable as a backup.

Clement in Boston for $25 mil over 3 years according to the article on MLB.com Not bad. More than I'd have liked the Jays to do, less than rumoured. Boston isn't the worst place he could've gone.

As to the Jays, I've been thinking for awhile now that Piazza could fill that DH/RH catcher slot nicely. Catches vs lefties, DH or 1B vs righties. As I posted a few days ago, staffs that have him catching tend to be very good so I don't worry about the weak arm, especially in the era of the home run. He is a bit old so I'd want the Mets to eat at least 1/2 of his salary or take on Hinske's contract plus pay some cash (Piazza made $16 mil last year iirc). Piazza could be a good mentor to Q later this year and next, as I think I read that he does do a lot of studying for his pitchers (learns hitters in the league, etc.) vs I-Rod who used to be known for missing pitcher/catcher meetings before games (yes, I am very anti-IRod and in favor of Piazza).

ESPN is also reporting that Clement signed with Boston.

Matt Clement
reported by MLB
to the Red Sox
3/25M

I suppose Green has both the no-trade clause in his existing contract, and his newly earned 10 & 5 rights. Maybe he'll want them to buy him out twice?

Now if they buy his consent and he is moved, he loses the 10 & 5 rights - but the no-trade clause is still in his contract after he's transferred to Arizona. And he's looking for an extension, and probably wants to stay in the southwest, if he can't stay in Southern California. If Arizona wanted to move him (once they get to July, and reality sets in), theoretically, they'd have to work out something with again... (I'm sure that in the real world, they will anticipate this contingency.) :-)

Okay, now that the Clement pursuit is over, in the mind of J.P. Riccardi, who(a name) is our number one priority?

I am confident that J.P. will turn his attention into getting the best bat for the buck, but in the mind of our G.M., who fits this bill via trade or free agency.

Just a thought... Im not sure how much I like it... but with green hesitant to go to arizona what about Toronto becoming that 4th team and we bring back green to play first. I know he had a down year last season but maybe coming back to toronto would be a way to re-energize his career.

I like that idea, Noah. The Dodgers are looking for a 3rd basemen as well. Hinske + ? to L.A. for Green?

but with green hesitant to go to arizona what about Toronto becoming that 4th team and we bring back green to play first.

Not a chance of it happening. Not a chance. Green likes Southern California so much (its where he's from and where his family lives) that he doesn't want to go to Phoenix). He has veto rights on any move out of Los Angeles. He earns $16 million dollars next year.

Snowballs have better chances in... Phoenix.

Yea, I'm sure there was a good reason why it wouldn't happen.

I dont know though. He was very happy in Toronto and only left because there was only enough money for one of the 2 superstars (delgado being the other of course).

The big thing here is that Green loves it in LA because it has a very large Jewish population, Toronto happens to have (i believe) the third largest jewish population in north america after new york and LA.

You're probably right about him wanting to stay in SoCal but I wouldn't write off his interest in returning to TO.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20041217&content_id=923668&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp
Tim Hudson is one class act. Nothing but praise and thanks for everyone in Oakland, from Billy Beane to his team mates, to the fans and the organization.COMN.

I understand why Billy traded me. I know he has to do what he thinks is best for the team in the long run, and obviously he's doing it. But I'm really going to miss being there.

Nice to see. Uh, Pedro... not so much.

He was very happy in Toronto and only left because there was only enough money for one of the 2 superstars (delgado being the other of course).

Not true. Green himself forced the trade. The Jays got back a player making even more money than Green at the time (fella named Mondesi). And the big issue with Green was and remains playing in California, where he went to high school, where his family lives.

Damn, I was really hoping Clement might go for T.O.

Here's the link.

We'll just have to hope for some JP magic -- by the way, that wasn't meant to be sarcastic. I am optimistic about JP's ability to make lemonade out of lemons, in the long run.

Maybe Odalis Perez could be in our plans? I guess more realistically it will be Steve Kline, a power bat (I am doubting Alou now, as it is rumoured he has been offered a deal by Pedro's Mets), maybe a lower--tier starter.

Kevin Milwood perhaps? Let's get him before the panic of no available starting pitching really sets in. I like the thread from above -- 2 yrs, $10 MIL, perhaps incentive based. What do you guys think out there in battersbox cyberspace?

Sorry for the delay; it was a law exam Tyler for crime and state in history, and I'll sure be happy to be done them on Tuesday Andrew S., as it'll put me one term away from graduation (finally!). True to form, it was brutal as hell and has made me grumpy and irritable.

Sad news to hear about Clement; when's a team like Toronto ever going to catch a break? Seems like you can only lure big names when you're winning, but it's tough to do when you have to keep doing battle with said big names every year. Sometimes irony can be pretty ironic...

And is it that slow a news day when we've regressed to asking me about my day? :)

http://rotoworld.com/content/playernews.asp?sport=MLB
Clement signs for 25.5mil/3 yrs with Red Sox.

8.5 mil a season for a number 3 starter. Not too shabby to be a SP these days.

I'd rather have Floyd than Alou. Floyd would about the same salary, and OTh this is the last year of his contract. And I think you're more likely to get an amazing 250 AB stretch from Floyd, .400/.600, which would be good if the Jays are out of it in July. He's also only 32.

People have brought it up before, but Alou's homeroad splits scare me- .405/.714 vs .316/.400(!). The Jays can't afford to take a $5 million risk like that.

Greg Colbrun signed with the Rangers. Cross one more off the lsit for 1B.

I think I'd regard 2 yrs, $ 10 million for Millwood as a bit of a bargain. His problems last year were with his elbow, which doesn't frighten me as much as a shoulder. He was throwing very well in his two September starts, although his command was missing (he came out of the first one after two because he was only going to throw 45-50 pitches) and he strained a groin in the second one.

He's still striking out more than 7 guys per 9; he still throws in the low 90s. He doesn't turn 30 until... Friday.

A pretty decent Plan B.

Someone else to take a flyer on, if you're looking for a cheap bat. It might be possible to get Ben Grieve for a minor league deal at this point. Well, probably not. But he won't cost much.

He's had a year to recover from his Tampa Bay experience, and he showed some signs of bouncing back a little.

Just don't let him anywhere near a glove.

This is brutal news. Clement has one hell of an arm. He really reminds me of an older more mature Escobar. The jays never seem to get a break. As soon as boston became involved Toronto had no chance. Now we are left to wonder what would have been. I am anxious to see what is up JPs sleeve now.

Floyd would about the same salary, and OTh this is the last year of his contract.

Floyd has two years and $13 million left.

You'll all feel better when Clement is leading the AL in walks and has an ERA around 5.00 :-)

I too am anxious to see where JP looks now.

I think Clement is a great addition to the Sox. He looks like a very solid starter, with the potential to become one of the league's best. It is a bit painful--but unsurprising--to see JP court him for weeks, only to lose him to Epstein at the eleventh hour. All the Jays can do is stick to their game plan: build a strong farm system and look to make strategic moves. Right now though the Sox' signing of Wells, Renteria, and Clement are blowing the Jays out of the water.

That's not even mentioning smaller signings like Mantei and Halama that have the potential to have significant impact.

The Jays really only had one shot at Clement. Signing him early while other teams were still occupied chasing other targets. Once Clement started giving consideration to contending teams that were turning to him as a backup strategy the Jays would have seen the need for Plan B. If Clement was going to sign it certainly wasn't going to be after Boston and Anaheim joined the race.

I do hope they have other things lined up because they still have quite a bit unspent and missing out on Clement isn't the end of the world. There are worse things than giving Batista another shot at starting in the AL. They might even want to wait until Monday at this point to see what comes through the non-tender lines. Unless of course they've got someone good they can wrap up right away.

I would give a lot of consideration to Odalis Perez and Kevin Millwood depending on their costs. Outside of Drew and Alou there isn't much left on offence in free agency. Now if you're willing to spend $8 million and a draft pick on Clement then why not $9 million plus and no draft picks on Drew? You might as well try and see what happens.

"After losing out on Matt Clement, the Blue Jays intend to put Miguel Batista back into their rotation.
Batista will slot in behind Roy Halladay and Ted Lilly and ahead of David Bush. Gustavo Chacin is the favorite for the fifth spot. The Blue Jays have money to spend, but rather than sign a lesser starter, they're expected to concentrate on the bullpen (Steve Kline) and the lineup (Moises Alou). "
From Rotoworld

Batista as the 3/4 with Bush sounds great, as does Kline but I'm definitiely skeptical about Alou. I think the very best idea is to sign Kline, then wait and see if Wade Miller is non tendered and in our price range. If he is expected to draw top dollar, I'd forget about Kline and wait on him; if the Jays lose out on him or he is tendered a contract it will be into the trade market for a bat for J.P. (much better than signing Alou anyway).

Now if you're willing to spend $8 million and a draft pick on Clement then why not $9 million plus and no draft picks on Drew?

The Jays have already lost the second pick for signing Koskie, right? Doesn't that mean that they can't lose anymore picks, no matter who is signed?

No, it just means that they'd give up their 3rd round pick for Clement.

Thanks, you're right, Ryan01. I'd been thinking that the Jays had been screwed out of a pick last year in the Escobar signing. The way I'd remembered it, they were doubly hurt because he was signed by a bottom-half team who'd also signed Colon.

I forgot that they did actually get the third rounder...

The third round selection was, of course, outfielder/first baseman Adam Lind. By all accounts, his bat is for real, as a sweet winging lefthanded hitter.

The sandwich selection was lefthanded pitcher Zach Jackson, who the Jays seriously considered as their first rounder. He has some very good upside, as a mid rotation starter of the future.

Overall, the return for Escobar is potentially very good.