I think if Clement wanted the Jays, he would have signed by now. I imagine JP made his best offer or close to it already.

http://sports.mainetoday.com/pirates/stories/041216carlostosca.shtml
COMN for an article about Carlos Tosca that Prisoner of Hamilton linked to at the end of the last roundup thread. Since there hasn't been a lot of comment on it, I am considering it "still fresh". ;)

Thanks, NFH. I was wondering whether I should bring that in here.

This is two managers in a row that have complained about Ricciardi after being fired by him. Buck's sourness I can somewhat understand, but I can't believe that when Tosca took the job he was blissfully ignorant of the kind of person he was going to be working for.

I've yet to read or hear someone say positive things about the guy who fired him. I would expect Tosca to be harsh in his assessment of Ricciardi, and while I respect his position, I'm not inclined to consider his viewpoint particularly objective. General managers aren't in this business to make friends, and you can't make everyone happy and still do your job.

There was a lot of discussion here when Tosca was fired, and the upshot was that while bad luck played a factor, and the cards he was dealt weren't the best, Tosca consistently led his team to poor starts and failed to accelerate the development of most of the young players under his charge. Ricciardi of course shares some of the blame; every GM who fires the manager he hired is implicity admitting that his judgment didn't work out. But it would have been nice if Tosca had at least indirectly admitted that he didn't exactly set the world on fire himself.

If the remaining resources were split among Kline, Alou and another pitcher - Scott Williamson, say - that would certainly soften the sting of falling out of the Clement sweepstakes. I like the idea of AJ Burnett better than Clement.

I don't know off the top of my head if a second year (mutual option, at reasonable dollars?) isn't a bad idea for Alou. He hasn't shown many signs of slowing down, I don't think - and of course in the AL he can DH his share of the time. I don't foresee too many of the guys who should be at AA/AAA this year to be outproducing him in '06 anyway (Hattig, Gross, Vito, etc.)

harsh in his assessment of Ricciardi,

I don't see much of anything about JP in Tosca's quotes... the reporter makes some comments, but not Carlos..

Somewhat of a hijack. I've been meaning to post this for a while, but I wasn't sure which thread would be appropriate...

So my friend is working with a new newspaper that will be geared toward students in Toronto and Vancouver who are learning English as a second language. The paper will have 3 sections, a 'World' or general news section, a 'Life' section for Toronto and Vancouver. One of his first jobs before they publish the first monthly issue will be too secure as many article sources for the 'Life' section as humanly possible.

This is where he's looking for help. This is an open call to anyone who would like to have an article in a monthly newspaper. The main reason of looking on the Box is for someone interested in sports; however, the 'Life' section will have articles on many subjects, music, technology, tips for living in Toronto, etc, anything that a student learning English might be interested in. The length should be somewhere between 500 and 750 words, the length seems long but that is mostly for editing purposes. Also, if there's anyone out there living in Vancouver who might be interested in the Vancouver Life section, let him know.

This position would be un-paid for at least the first two issues, but after that time a standard industry rate could be paid for your contributions (depending on the operating budget of course).

If you are interested, or know someone who is please email him at
alltogethernow@gmail.com

Please include your name, the subject you would like to write about, and why you think this would apply to students studying English. Each article will get a ranking between 1 and 3, based on how difficult it is.

For sports, general columns are best. So, previews of the BlueJays upcoming season are nice, an analysis of why they lost last night isn't. Basic education on the sports scene in Toronto is also nice, as are opinion
articles.

/end hijack

Thanks!

Thanks for checking this out, and really, all submissions are welecomed with open arms. Good luck and happy writing!

I would go two years on Alou, so long as the second year were heavily incentivized: Moises has something of a history of playing very well in his contract year. The one guy I hope the organization doesn't write off or forget about is Gabe Gross, who I think will put up some fine numbers in Syracuse this year. Having Gross in LF and Alou at DH in 2006 would not be a bad thing at all.

I wonder what Zane Smith's doing these days?

and another pitcher - Scott Williamson, say

How was his shoulder described? Car wreck? Bomb went off in there? I foget exactly, but it wasn't good.

I think it's safe to say Williamson isn't in Toronto's plans.

I like the idea of AJ Burnett better than Clement.

I was thinking the same thing, without having investigated it too much. I believe this is Burnett's final arbitration year, so he'll likely be in the same price range as Clement next year, and nothing too cheap this year - plus you have to give something up to get him.

J.P.'s gut told him that they were out of it [race for Clement] now.

*JP dials up Clement's agent, whom I shall call 'Bob'*

JP: Bob! Its JP!
Bob: Who?
JP: JP Ricciardi.
Bob: Que?
JP: GM of the Toronto Blue Jays?
Bob: Oh. Yeah. Jay-*Pee*. Sorry. Bad phone connection.
JP: No problem. So. How's things going with your client? Did you get my fax? We're prepared to go 3/26
Bob: *snickering audibly* Oh yeah. We got it. *giggle*. We.. umm *snicker* sent it off to Matt for *chuckle* his opinion
JP: Great. Any news on when Matt might make a decision?
Bob: *guffaw* Well. As you know. We have a lot of *snort* competitive offers. We're not about to *titter* jump into something right away.
JP: Oh. I understand. But we're still in the running, right?
*pause. sounds of wheezing laughter, and a hand slapping a table*
Bob: Oh. *catches breath*. Yeah. Your *barely contained laugh* definately in cont... *laughter resumes*
JP: Cool

*JP hangs up*

JP: Somehow, I dont think we're going to get Clement. Get me Shawn Estes' agent on the phone, wouldja Keith?

I would go two years on Alou, so long as the second year were heavily incentivized

Unless you set some high incentives that kicked in a 2nd year that'd be tough for me - he'll be 39 in July.

I don't see much of anything about JP in Tosca's quotes.

Tosca's statements are pretty blatant, if ungrammatical: "In all the jobs I've had and all of the years that I managed, I was never second-guessed and told what to do and who not to play as those 2 1/2 years in Toronto. And yet, it was the one thing I was held most accountable for."

If the remaining resources were split among Kline, Alou and another pitcher - Scott Williamson, say - that would certainly soften the sting of falling out of the Clement sweepstakes. I like the idea of AJ Burnett better than Clement.

I can't remember where I read it last night (maybe on Baseball Primer) but it seems that Odalis Perez is a free agent.

Does he have injury problems or something? I have no idea why a lefthander with an ERA in the low 3's is not generating any hype. I think he would be a far superior signing to Clement, and would probably come cheaper, given the apparent lack of interest in him.

I think [Perez] would be a far superior signing to Clement

As do I. But as has been mentioned in a couple of quarters (ie, guys on BTF), Perez would be absolutely crazy to sign before Clement/Milton does.

At the least, Perez could reasonably expect to get one of those 3/21 contracts - he's a better bet than Wright/Benson. At best, he'll be in line for some serious coin when the loser(s) of the Clement sweepstakes all converge to sign the last decent pitcher on the market.

Love to have him. But I dont think he's gonna sign quick or cheap.

I like the idea of AJ Burnett better than Clement.

Like every other pitcher who has made a public comment about Brad Arnsberg (at least the ones I've heard or read), Burnett thinks the world of his former coach. But A.J. is a bigger health risk than Clement, and who knows what the Fish want for him?

Bomb went off in there?

Williamson had TJ surgery, so it was actually his elbow that asploded, though it may be that his shoulder is wonky too.

I don't see much of anything about JP in Tosca's quotes.

Tosca's statements are pretty blatant, if ungrammatical: "In all the jobs I've had and all of the years that I managed, I was never second-guessed and told what to do and who not to play as those 2 1/2 years in Toronto. And yet, it was the one thing I was held most accountable for."

I suppose the implication is that he's blaming JP - but he could very well be pointing his finger at the media and the fans. And maybe a few posters at this very web site.

I'm quite happy to hear we are out of the running for Clement. I dont think he would be a large improvement over Batista, especially with the large contract price he'd come with. I've never been sold on Clement in the Skydome - his penchant for homers in the homer-happy closed dome would not bode well. I think he'd become little more than a middle-rotation starter that is paid too much, on a team that, at this stage, can put 9 million per, to much better use.
On the other hand, I think Alou is a very attractive option. He has not shown any signs of decline and I would go two years on him. His history of injuries is concerning, but I would rather chance a few million on a hitter that, when healthy, can be used (deadline trade, if need be) by any number of teams down a stretch drive. Use the left over money to improve the offence and bullpen - the starting rotation is just fine for a team admittingly not close to challenging for any postseason advance.

And maybe a few posters at this very web site.

That would be kind of cool, actually.

That would be kind of cool, actually.

When you typed that, were you laughing a long, loud Dr. Evil laugh?

This article talks about Burnett's availability.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/baseball/marlins/sfl-marlins16dec16,0,449901.story?coll=sfla-sports-marlins

Say there's 10 million to spend on free agents and additions from here out:

Ideal:
Kline (2.75 per, two year deal)
Koch (750,000 and incentives)
Alou (4 million and heavy incentives based on PAs in year one to enable second year of contract)

This would still leave enough to get one more bench/1b bat.
What do you think?

I like Kline and Alou. I think we should stay far away from Koch.

all of the years that I managed, I was never second-guessed and told what to do and who not to play as those 2 1/2 years in Toronto. And yet, it was the one thing I was held most accountable for.

Welcome to the major leagues.

Retroworld (citing the Baltimore Sun) says the Orioles are likely to non-tender Jay Gibbons, and that he's likely cost $ 7-8 million over two years. Does anyone care?

When you typed that, were you laughing a long, loud Dr. Evil laugh?

Naw, that would bring me uncomfortably close to being Gord Ash.

he could very well be pointing his finger at the media and the fans

Typically astute, Four Seamer. Tosca was "held responsible" many times on these pages for things that weren't his fault. To the best of my knowledge, he never read the site, but he knew I treated him fairly, never writing anything I wouldn't say to his face, and we got along quite well.

There's always going to be a difference of opinion on lineups between a GM building for the future and a manager trying to win today's game. I wear both hats in high school ball, and while I'm in full developmental mode at practice, with the best intentions of getting my Grade 9s some valuable playing time, as soon as we start keeping score, I rely on my veterans. If I had to "answer" to someone with a longer-range view, we would occasionally disagree. Fortunately, the conflict is only in my head, and I'm very forgiving of my mistakes.

Presumably, some the most spirited internal debates were about Phelps, who was killing the team but had so much "upside". Bullpen management may have been mentioned a few times as well. Tosca's philosophies are probably better suited for NL ball, and he might still resent the organizational red light on stolen bases.

Oddly enough, there are rumblings (and limited evidence) that Gibby will be allowed to use the running game at his discretion. He'd still get ripped for a first-inning sac bunt or hit-and-running into a triple play; deservedly so.

Jay Gibbons, Rob Mackowiak and *maybe* Craig Wilson are the best options from the players who may become free agents on Monday when non-tendered. They can all play 1B and the corner outfield spots and they have pop in their bats. Durazo, Hillenbrand and Lamb are other options as well. As is Nick Johnson now that the Nationals/Expos have to watch their dollars. Lots of interesting options and they likely won't command "huge" contracts.

I'm no a big fan of Gibbons, but Alou is definitely intriguing. Still though, is 4 million for one year really realistic? Even though he's 39, with his production last year, I'd think he would command closer to 7-10, and would want a two-year contract. I don't know if he can actually get that, but I would imagine the mets are willing to offer more then 1/4.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1947231
COMN for an interesting article that discusses how the Nationals can be contracted after 2006 and that this actually may be the best for the rest of the owners financially.

If you are a conspiracy theorist, maybe Loria's recent stadium "crisis" in Florida is lining up that team to be the other team contracted after 2006.

Hmmmm....two openings in the NL East. I'd rather go to the AL Central, but the NL East might be nice too.

Even though he's 39, with his production last year, I'd think he would command closer to 7-10, and would want a two-year contract.

That's why Ricciardi said "everything else would have to fall through," meaning on both sides, for the Jays to make him an offer.

Is there any chance at all that Oakland may non-tender Durazo?

Also, why the talk of going after another pitcher other than Clement? I'm fairly comfortable having Batista in the rotation next year. Our rotation is already vastly improved in my oppinion by Bush replacing Hentgen and Halladay hopefully staying healthy. Problem is, if you go out and get another starter, then you have to move someone out. Unless that pitcher is significantly better than Batista what's the point?

And I can't believe people are considering Alou. Surely there are some much better options out there via the trade route. Assuming Clement doesn't sign, that's still quite a bit of money left over, and I'd be really dissapointed if a large chunk of it was spent on Alou.

Here is my ideal way for this offseason to play out:

Currently 20 roster spots filled at 41 million $

So 5 spots left with 12 million to spend:

1. Gregg Zaun to catch for 1.3 million

2. Trever Miller returns as primary Lefty middle reliver at 800,000

3. Scott Downs signed as second LOOGY at minor league contract with invite to spring training and a $400,000 salary if he makes the club (COMN for his splits - he's a failed starter but his splits suggest a fine LOOGY on the cheap)

That leaves 9.5 million to be split between

4. Moises Alou - Power righty bat to hit 5th behind Koskie

5. Steve Kline - At less that half the cost of Percival, I think he has the potential to be as good or better as a closer

http://me.woot.net
An off-topic fun suggestion:

Anybody who owns or has access to today's, Thursday December 16th's, New York Times, flip to page A24. (In the States, it might be page A34.) Go ahead and look if you're just walking by a newsstand; they won't mind.

I don't see a need for Gibbons, unless he learns to switch-hit really fast. I don't care if JP gives Koch a contract, but it had better be a minor-league one. I can't imagine he would actually give even half a million of his available budget to Koch, who hasn't gotten anyone out at all for 2 or 3 years.

On the other hand, I'd be happy to take Alou. He's exactly what the team needs right now - a right-handed power hitter who won't cost a fortune. Replacing Carlos and Phelps in the order with Koskie and Alou seems like a pretty good upgrade to me, and it would be cheaper too. I'd rather have Alou than Durazo.

I don't see a need for Gibbons, unless he learns to switch-hit really fast.

I read this ten times and couldn't figure out what you were saying.

Until I realized you were talking about Jay Gibbons, not the current Jays manager. :)

Am I the only one who is worried about the players getting all these stupid deals? Not from a short term "the Jays are getting outbid for everyone" reasons, but the fact that it's going to give a few teams reasons to cry poor next time the CBA comes up for negotiation? There's no way Arizona and Seattle are going to be profitable with the money they're giving away, and every stupid contract signed increases the chance of a work stoppage that much more.

For the love of the game, I really wish these teams would control themselves.

I thought Seattle has tons of dough - they just don't spend much of it unless there is an overpriced proven veteran to be had. Sexson is risky, but at least he's a legitimately good player, unlike so many other M's signings.

Arizona seems crazy too, unless Moorad is telling the truth that they've raised $250 million in new capital from a new group of investors.

I don't understand this Arizona investor story. Are these investors expecting a return on their investment? Where on earth would it come from, unless the management are mortgaging the team's future (even more than before)? Arizona should look at what happened to Leeds Utd football club, to see what happens when you borrow and overspend on players.

Or perhaps the investors just see it as a charitable donation...

I read over at Rotoworld that the only way Florida will trade A.J Burnett is in a three way deal to get Tim Hudson. The Jays were said to be a third party in a few three way deals for Hudson. Why don't they get in one this one. I'd move O-Dog in a heart beat for A.J Burnett! Especially when you consider the fact that he'll be working with Brad Arnsberg again and his salary this season is only around $2.5M! The trade could shape up like this:

To Oakland: Orlando Hudson, Rosario/Arnold, Gabe Gross (if neccesary)

To Toronto: A.J Burnett

To Florida: Tim Hudson

I'd be fine with that deal. Only thing to worry about is Burnett's health, but if he passes a pysical I say go for it!

There's no way Arizona and Seattle are going to be profitable with the money they're giving away, and every stupid contract signed increases the chance of a work stoppage that much more.

For the love of the game, I really wish these teams would control themselves.

Why does this sound so familiar? The part that I find difficult to take is the owners' rhetoric when strike/lockout time arrives.

4. Moises Alou - Power righty bat to hit 5th behind Koskie

At the risk of pulling this thread off-topic, what are everyone's views on the likely batting order for 2005? If the Jays don't sign a big bat and spend the money elsewhere, would you bat Koskie 4th? Personally I think Wells would be better suited for cleanup and Koskie 3rd or perhaps even 2nd in the order, unless Hudson's bat really takes off.

First-time poster here, so don't beat me too hard. ;)

Jay Gibbons, Rob Mackowiak and *maybe* Craig Wilson are the best options from the players who may become free agents on Monday when non-tendered. They can all play 1B and the corner outfield spots and they have pop in their bats. Durazo, Hillenbrand and Lamb are other options as well. As is Nick Johnson now that the Nationals/Expos have to watch their dollars. Lots of interesting options and they likely won't command "huge" contracts.

Wilson bats right, so he would be a far better fit in the Jays lineup than Nick Johnson, Gibbons, or Mackowiak.

Methinks Monday, December 20th is going to be verrrrrrrry interesting...

How much is Pierzynski going to command on the open market? Is is possible his "personality problems" might hold down his market value? I was quite surprised to see him non-tendered. Even after getting a 5MM arbitration award, hew would not be a bad value in a market where Matheny and Miller get over 3MM each. At least he can hit...

Hi Parker.

I think Gibbons said at the Winter Meetings that he was going to start off the year with Hudson in the number two spot. That's all I caught from the batting order discussion.

Whatever order he works out to start the year, they should maybe stick with it for a while to see how it pans out. I remember last year Hudson had a nice little streak when put up at the top of the order for a while, almost like he was responding with "Hell yes, I deserve to be here".

I would not trade O-Dog for Burnett - he is going to be a free agent in a year and would still take up more of the budget than does Orlando. A trade would only open another hole at 2b, which, for the first time since Roberto Alomar, seems to be stable and productive.

For the love of the game, I really wish these teams would control themselves.

Thing is, it only takes one idiot to change the market rate for everyone. Is there any way Delgado will sign for less than what Sexson got?

I normally back the players reflexively in just about every labour issue. But the one issue where I think there is a justification for the players to give something to the owners is arbitration. (Which happens to be something the owners bleat about all the time anyway.)

Arbitration pre-dates free agency, and it surely had a purpose at the time. Among other things, it almost completely eliminated what used to be an annual rite of spring - the holdout. Some of you may actually remember the celebrated Koufax/Drysdale negotiation. Going further back, Joe DiMaggio and the Yankees used to have a vicious public war with each other just about every year.

Arbitration pretty much eliminated that, with the very rare exception of a player who was not yet arbitration-eligible, but had just done something remarkable (Roger Clemens after 1986.)

But it seems to me that the arrival of free agency after Messersmith - McNally has changed these conditions.

Speaking of Delgado, the Mets are very interested. From today's New York Times. COMN (Registration required, and for that reason I will quote generously).

The Mets are zeroing in on Carlos Delgado, the free-agent first baseman from the Toronto Blue Jays, who is as controversial as he is appealing.

Delgado is celebrated for hitting more than 30 home runs in each of the past eight years, and is considered a positive force in the clubhouse, but he was jeered at Yankee Stadium last season because he has declined to stand on the field during the playing of "God Bless America"... many teams, including the Mets, now play it only on weekends and holidays.

... he would satisfy two of the Mets' most substantial needs. The team has no starting first baseman and only one legitimate left-handed power hitter, Cliff Floyd, whom Minaya is looking to trade.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/john_donovan/diamondbacks.signings/index.html
Are these investors expecting a return on their investment?

Well, they own a piece of the team which generall is valuable.

Kendrick and his friends solicited the rich and the business-like around town, looking for contributions of at least $3 million each to buy into a share of the club. They came up with somewhere around 40 new investors. The rest of the existing partners chipped in more money. And now the Diamondbacks have $250 million in capital to spend on players and to chop down all that debt in a grand new 10-year plan.

COMN for the article.

I've yet to read or hear someone say positive things about the guy who fired him.

"I will always treasure the four years that I have spent with President Bush and with the wonderful men and women of the Department of State." -- Colin Powell

Hahaha... Excellent work, Mick

JP said Batista is in the rotation if they don't get Clement, and they will use the rest of the money on the bullpen and hitting. Kline, Alou, and Koch for the same money we're offering Clement would be sweet.

Parker, this doesn't answer your questions - but, as I tried to work out a line up I realized quickly that if JP goes and gets another bat (most likely a RH bat - Kevin Millar or Kevin Mench anyone?) I realized that someone is gonna get squeezed out of the picture between Cat, Sparky and Hinske in the revolving door DH/1B/4th OF role. Note I realize Eric will not be an OF anytime soon

The Jays are really LH heavy and our RH (Frankie M, Rios, Sparky) other than VW don't have much power.

Reed Johnson, one of my favourite players, is really better suited to the fourth outfielder role. He doesn't have nearly enough offensive output for a corner outfielder and he's not going to play centre any time soon.

Curious, what do people think of Derek Lowe? He made $4.5 last year, not sure what he would be worth in this market, but would anyone be interested in him either as a starter or even as a closer?

The Jays are really LH heavy

Not just that - they're full of LH hitters who should be hitting in the number two spot.

Gibbsons said something about Adams-Hudson at the top of the order, at least against RH pitchers. I can see that, but wasn't Catalanotto born to hit second.

And Eric Hinske had his best season batting second (although last year he was just awful when he hit there.)

Didn't Gibbons say Adams would lead-off against RHP?

My guess:

vs RHP

Adams
Hudson
Koskie
Wells
FA/trade (Alou, Millar type)
Catalanotto
Rios
Hinske
Zaun/Myers/Quiroz

vs LHP

Johnson
Hudson
Wells
FA/Trade (Alou, Millar type)
Koskie
Rios
Menechino
Zaun
McDonald/Adams

Curious, what do people think of Derek Lowe? He made $4.5 last year, not sure what he would be worth in this market, but would anyone be interested in him either as a starter or even as a closer?

Captain Groundball could be pretty effective with the new infield defence behind him, but he's probably going to want substantial cash to throw that sinker.

I suspect Pedro to the Mets kicks Lowe out of Toronto's price range ... the Sox will pay more to make sure Bronson Arroyo isn't their #3 starter on Opening Day.

Why is everyone so discouraged about the Clement comments? Wasn't it only a week or so ago that Bob Elliot said there was NO WAY KOSKIE WAS COMING TO TORONTO? Then he signed a few days later. Who says Blair has anything more concrete? Let's STOP giving the media so much damned credit. I'm still feeling confident about Clement-time.

Grand Funk out.

I'm not sure if its been said but, the Score is reporting that Clement will make his final decision by the end of today and that Toronto's final offer is 3 years 8 mill per.

I'd consider Lowe, but only at a reasonable price (i.e. similar to what he made last year). He might be a lot better away from the Fenway Fishbowl and he was quite pissed at the management last season.

Why is everyone so discouraged about the Clement comments? Wasn't it only a week or so ago that Bob Elliot said there was NO WAY KOSKIE WAS COMING TO TORONTO? Then he signed a few days later. Who says Blair has anything more concrete? Let's STOP giving the media so much damned credit. I'm still feeling confident about Clement-time.

Did Bob Elliot say "I was talking to J.P. and J.P. said that his gut tells him that Koskie is not coming to Toronto"?

Bob Elliot rumormongering and Jeff Blair directly quoting the GM of the Jays are pretty different. Given that, it's not more concrete than J.P.'s gut feeling, so there's still hope.

I'd consider Lowe, but only at a reasonable price (i.e. similar to what he made last year). He might be a lot better away from the Fenway Fishbowl and he was quite pissed at the management last season.

I think I read somewhere this week that the Lowe camp asked for 4/$48. You think they might be banking on those playoff stats holding up? Geeeeeeez, that's NUTS.

Grand Funk out.

Mind you, I said there was no chance Hinske would be playing regularly at 1B next year. So it's not just the media that goofs. At least half of those guys are batting much higher than I am this off-season, so I try not to knock them too much.

Except for Elliott and Griffin. :)

Just a question, as I've seen this term a lot here: what the heck is a LOOGY?

Lefty One Out GuY

http://me.woot.net
Lee, your answer will be found in our FAQ, which stands for Frequently Asked Questions. :)

Left-Handed One Out Guy.

$12 mil per for Lowe isn't just NUTS, Grand Funk, it's NUTS. I doubt he's worth more than half that amount. Even with the market going as nuts as it is, I don't see anyone paying him that kind of dough.

http://me.woot.net
By the way, there's lots of other interesting information linked to up there in the green "Box Navigation" box.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2002121200_mari16.html
Didn't Gibbons say Adams would lead-off against RHP?

Yes he did. I'd rather see him hitting 9th to start the year.

He's a rookie, making a big adjustment. Let's try to smooth the transition as much as possible. Minimize the pressure.

Seattle is hot and heavy after Adrian Beltre (which means, I would expect, that Jeff Kent could be at 3B this year) and probably takes them out of the Delgado sweepstakes. They apparently have a $60 million offer out to Delgado that could be withdrawn if Beltre comes aboard.COMN

David Sloane began discussions with the Yankees last week, but they need to find out if they're going to get Beltran before they look at Delgado.

Braby, Joe, and Rich: Thanks. So what, no ROOGY? ;-)

I think the Jays problem was that they had too many ROOGY's on their team last year coming out of the pen...unintentionally of course.

So what, no ROOGY? ;-)

Check out Kerry Ligtenberg's splits sometime

I said there was no chance Hinske would be playing regularly at 1B next year.

I said that too. But it hasn't happened yet.

I'd be stunned if Hinske is the regular 1b all season long.

I'd be stunned if Hinske is the regular 1b all season long.

Why? 1B is generally easier to play than 3B, so there's no reason to think he can't make that adjustment. If he does that, then he would seem to be the best option at the moment. If he gets of to a decent start (i.e. better than last year), I don't see why he couldn't be the regular 1B. That all changes if they pick up someone else, of course, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Hinske there all year.

I won't, I think it would better for the Jays to go after a right handed LF (Alou). That would protect Cat from potential injuries and let him DH most of the season. By signing an old fart like Alou it gives Gross a chance to settle down and have a good season in AAA so he can come in and be the starting LF in 2006.

If Hinske has a bad year, nobody will take his ever growing contract, and if he has a good year, I don't see a point in trading him in this market.

It's the RNOGYs and LNOGYs who were the real problem.

Just imagine a healthy JD Drew in the Jays line-up............

Just imagine a healthy JD Drew in the Jays line-up............

I don't see how getting another left handed hitter in the line up is the best option for the team, especially one who has had one good season in his contract year.

I'd rather see the Jays go after a right handed power hitter for a short term fix.

I'd like Moises Alou a lot better if I thought the team was ready to make some kind of run in 2005. As things stand, I don't really see the point. Unless the whole idea is to flip him to a contender in July.

Unless the whole idea is to flip him to a contender in July.

And unless I'm mistaken, if he's signed as a free agent, you can't flip him to a contender in July.

And unless I'm mistaken, if he's signed as a free agent, you can't flip him to a contender in July.

I dont get this. Didnt Pittsburgh do exactly this a couple of years ago? They signed Lofton, Randall Simon, and a couple of other spare parts and when they (predictably) were out of it, they unloaded all those guys for shiny prospects?

Or have the rules changed since?

Who says Blair has anything more concrete?

I do, emphatically. If he constantly fabricated stuff or twisted "facts" to paint the team in the worst possible light, wouldn't that be obvious by now? Every reporter's (and columnist's) body of work speaks eloquently for itself.

That's not only true in print. You can take Mike Wilner's information to the bank, while Marty York's gossip requires a grain or two of salt. On the Internet, not everyone with a keyboard is equally credible. It takes consistency and time to build a reputation for being fair and accurate.

Of the top of my head, I think the rule is you can't trade a newly signed free agent (without their permission) until June 1st. After that, they're fair game. Terry Adams is a prime example.

It's the RNOGYs and LNOGYs who were the real problem.

You mean "No-Out GuYs"? That was definitely a big problem with the Jays last season, although in fairness to the guys in the pen (as bad as some of them actually are), Tosca's pathetic mismanagement of his relievers may have played a role in that.

I think also that if you trade a multi-year signing FA in the first year of a contract do they not have the option to be declared a FA after that season?

Or have the rules changed since?

The current rules apply to 2003-2006, and I'm probably imagining things.

Anyway, I can't find anything anywhere (I could be looking in the wrong places) that suggests that you couldn't sign Moises Alou in December, and trade him on Opening Day if you felt like it. Unless it was specifically part of the deal with the player.

You can take Mike Wilner's information to the bank, while Marty York's gossip requires a grain or two of salt

In fact, there is not enough salt in the world to make York's drivel bearable... :)

I don't see how getting another left handed hitter in the line up is the best option for the team, especially one who has had one good season in his contract year.

I'd rather see the Jays go after a right handed power hitter for a short term fix.

I don't think it matters much what side of the plate the guy hits from, but in general I agree about Drew. He's likely going to be well out of the Jays' price range anyways, but he's a guy who has always taken every minor pain as an excuse to sit out games, and who only played consistently and up to his potential in a contract year. Not the kind of guy I would want to sign even if he was affordable.

I don't think Drew's legs could handle playing on turf, even new turf. And notice how many Boras clients JP has signed? I'd rather have Alou and a bunch of left-over cash to spend elsewhere.

My problem with Alou is more basic. His OPS+ the last 3 years have been 100, 113 and 128. Whoever signs him can reasonably hope for 2 years of 110-115 level performance. That's fine for a decent defensive left-fielder, but Moises is 38. He should really be a DH/1B, and that kind of offensive performance for a DH/1B isn't worth the kind of money Moises will get.

I'd like Moises Alou a lot better if I thought the team was ready to make some kind of run in 2005. As things stand, I don't really see the point. Unless the whole idea is to flip him to a contender in July.

Well, I mean the money needs to be spent to meet the budget and Alou for a year wouldn't be blocking anyone and would fill a team need in 2005...unless of course you're advocating we don't meet our budget and save the money for next year - but somehow I dont think thats a possibility

Would you rather have Cat playing LF though?

Unfortunately our options are running dry. I'd take his bat and not worry too much about his poor LF skills. After this year give the job to Gross and then move Alou to DH if need be.

Not too sure where that puts Cat unless they platoon Alou/Cat but that would be an expensive platoon.

My problem with Alou is more basic. His OPS+ the last 3 years have been 100, 113 and 128. Whoever signs him can reasonably hope for 2 years of 110-115 level performance. That's fine for a decent defensive left-fielder, but Moises is 38. He should really be a DH/1B, and that kind of offensive performance for a DH/1B isn't worth the kind of money Moises will get.

Well, the Jays need offensive production badly, and Moises just finished with 39 HR and 106 RBI. He is also a career .300 hitter. If the price is right, that's a heck of a hitter to add.

http://www.rangerfans.com/roster/rosterrules.html
I think also that if you trade a multi-year signing FA in the first year of a contract do they not have the option to be declared a FA after that season?

Not sure about that, but he can do this:

A player with five years of major league service who is traded in the middle of a multi-year contract may demand a trade prior to the start of the season following the one in which he was traded.COMN

Why not dream about getting Magglio on a 1 year deal to patrol LF? Let him bust out the big numbers again and then sign the multi-year, multi-bucks contract next year. I'd give him $9M for a year.

Matthew E, if I wasn't so enamored with my current handle, I'd be posting as RNOGY from now on. Brilliant.

My problem with Alou is more basic. His OPS+ the last 3 years have been 100, 113 and 128. Whoever signs him can reasonably hope for 2 years of 110-115 level performance. That's fine for a decent defensive left-fielder, but Moises is 38. He should really be a DH/1B, and that kind of offensive performance for a DH/1B isn't worth the kind of money Moises will get.

I guess it depends on what kind of money you think Moises will get.

I think he'll come in at the $5MM level, like Dye and Hidalgo signed for. At that price he's worth signing for one year.

The other thing is that offensive performance from 1B and DH isn't as strong as one would assume. Only 3 DHs and only 7 1B put up an OPS over 900 this past season. That's less than 25% (assuming 30 1B and 14 DHs). A 110-115 OPS+ is probably right around average at 1B/DH.

I just heard on the radio that Carlos is going to the Mets. Can anyone else confirm this?

Not on Sportscenter, but Beltre to Mariners, 5 year deal

unless of course you're advocating we don't meet our budget and save the money for next year - but somehow I dont think thats a possibility

I can tell you for a fact, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, that corporate budgets grow or die. In other words, if you don't spend the money this year, you don't get it next year. Management sees shrinking expenditures as an admission that the job can be done for less.

Ricciardi has to spend every penny.

Magpie, I just looked it up and I was close... you can't trade a newly signed player until after June 15, unless it's for minor leaguers/money and you have his written consent. As of June 16 you can trade him wherever you want.

It's in Article XX, Section B6, of the Basic Agreement.

Any Club signing a contract after the expiration of the election period with a Player under this Section B may not assign his contract until after the next June 15. However, notwithstanding the foregoing, such contract may be assigned for other Player contracts and/or cash consideration of $50,000 or less prior to the next June 16 if the Player gives written consent to such transaction.

Anybody else shocked Sexson got 50/4 after basically missing all of last season with an injury?

I remember during the end of last season I thought Glaus would get around 7 mil a season and Sexson would get around 8-9 mil. Boy was I wrong.

""Did Bob Elliot say "I was talking to J.P. and J.P. said that his gut tells him that Koskie is not coming to Toronto"?

Bob Elliot rumormongering and Jeff Blair directly quoting the GM of the Jays are pretty different. Given that, it's not more concrete than J.P.'s gut feeling, so there's still hope.""

Apparently J.P. told Mike Wilner that there was no deal with Koskie the very night he got signed. Could be a similar situation.

Though other things I've read points to him not being interested in Toronto. I.E. Him not visiting us.

Who was saying it on the radio? That rumor has been floating around this morning, but doesn't seem too solid yet.

Gammons says that Beltre is going to the Mariners for five years, according to rotoworld.com.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3674
COMN for a fine article by Jay Jaffe in BP on Hall watch questions.

I don't agree with the assessment of Boggs as an "inner-circle HOFer", and the stats that show him as more valuable than Schmidt and Brett leave me unimpressed. The weakness in the evaluation is that as a high OBP, modest power, slow guy, he did not produce as many runs in reality as the raw statistics suggested. He was a born leadoff hitter, and definitely behind Rickey Henderson in this role by a fair piece. Still, as the 3rd or 4th best hitting third baseman (Schmidt, Brett, Mathews), and as a fine defender, he is an easy Hall of Famer.

Otherwise, I agree completely, and the analysis is quite interesting. I'd love to hear Jay Jaffe's take on Bill Dahlen.

No matter who comes in to DH, there are some very "flippable" Jays already, like Batista, Lilly and Speier. Others, including Catalanotto, Myers and Ligtenberg, would become desirable second-half rentals for some contender by staying healthy. The Dodgers sure would have preferred Crash's stick to Mayne's down the stretch and in the playoffs.

our options are running dry

Except for the non-tenders about to hit the market and about a hundred possible trades. Also, the new bat doesn't have to swing from the right side. Nick Johnson or Cliff Floyd (if Omar threw in a bag of cash) would be just dandy.

I beat ya to the punch NFH....Sounds you had ESPN on too.

I remember listening to a syndicated sports talk show on the team 1040 Vancouver to diehard Cubs fans bemoaning Alou's lazy, inept play in the OF. He's rich, he has a bad attitude and he's old. This is not the Alou we knew in Montreal.

unless it's for minor leaguers/money

Ryan01, in the section you quote, it says:

"However, notwithstanding the foregoing, such contract may be assigned for other Player contracts and/or cash consideration of $50,000"

I don't see where it is indicated that the "other Player contracts" must be minor leaguers...

Apparently J.P. told Mike Wilner that there was no deal with Koskie the very night he got signed. Could be a similar situation.

And there probably wasn't a deal at that moment. Just like last night, J.P.'s gut told him there would be no Clement deal...doesn't mean it won't happen.

Well the only players who's contracts are under $50,000 are minor leaguers.

Winfield, the problem with posting at work is that when you stand up to deal with a customer and then come back and finish your post, you find that eighteen people have already said what you were going to. ;)

Understood, fortunately the thesis was on temporary hold, and I beat you. :) Darn customers and paperwork, get in the way of true priorities.

Well the only players who's contracts are under $50,000 are minor leaguers.

OK, I see. I thought it meant the trade could be either for (Player contracts) or for (cash up to $50K), not for (Player contracts or cash) up to $50K in value.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/scorecard/12/16/truth.rumors.hotstove/index.html
According to the NY Post the Mets have offered Alou a contract, no clue how long or for how much.

I don't have a NY Post link, I got the info from SI.com - Hot Stove Truth & Rumours COMN for the link

Thanks Magpie for correcting my memory. It seems to need more and more of that these days.

Found a source for the Delgado - Mets rumors: Newsday had articles today and yesterday. Yesterday said that they were offering him three years, but today's puts it at four. I have no idea what their credibility is like.

According to the articles, Sloane declined to comment. And when asked about it, here's what Randolph said:

"Everyone loves big bats," manager Willie Randolph said during a holiday party for children yesterday at Shea Stadium. "Believe me, I would love to have, and I'm just pulling names out here, whether it's Moises Alou or Delgado. These guys are out there."

So it sounds less than concrete.

Only 3 DHs and only 7 1B put up an OPS over 900 this past season. That's less than 25% (assuming 30 1B and 14 DHs). A 110-115 OPS+ is probably right around average at 1B/DH.

More numbers - positional averages for 2004:

       AVG   OBP   SLG
DH    .263  .345  .439
AL 1B .266  .346  .447
NL 1B .279  .363  .481

So basically, if you get a guy with an OPS in the low 800s you're average. Specifc to these Blue Jays, I'd want somebody better than average because the rest of the lineup isn't particularly strong.

Anyone else find it very interesting that no one has a clue where Clement will go? At this point, there's not really a favourite at all, and I really don't think there is a team out there that is confident they will get him.

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/8005774
White Sox agree to $9.75 million, three-year deal with Uribe...

COMN

Ryan01, where did you find it? One of the frustrations of my life is trying to pin down Transactions Rules. I have several partial sources I rely on, and nothing very comprehensive...

the new bat doesn't have to swing from the right side.

The Jays do play almost half their games in the AL East. Not a lot of LH pitching there.

In the AL West, Michael Young had 188 AB against LH.
In the AL Central, Ronnie Belliard had 204 AB against LH.
In the AL East, Miguel Tejada had 159 AB against LH.

(I was just picking the guys with the most AB in the division, leaving out LH batters. A quick and dirty look...)

Of course, Boomer is Back!

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-spbelt1217,0,2700753.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines
Newsday is reporting on the Beltre/Mariners thang (COMN)

The guys at USSMariner must be going ape if thats true

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/spo/mlbpa/mlbpa_cba.pdf
Magpie, COMN to download the 2003-2006 CBA. Like any legal document, it's a bit of a pain trying to plow your way through the vernacular but it's a highly useful document.

Jays have signed lefty Scott Downs to a minor league deal.

I'm guessing that Alou will get 2 X 5. I'd pass on that. Hinske's 3 year splits against righties are .261/.346/.443. I think that Hinske can do a little better than that, and if other options failed, I'd prefer a Hinske platoon to Alou. Signing a 1b right-handed hitter with a .800-.850 OPS against lefties should cost much less than Alou.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/16/sports/baseball/16mets.html
Thanks Magpie for correcting my memory.

Right. And I'm the guy who somehow had it in my head that you can't trade a newly signed FA during the first year of his deal... which is not so much a memory lapse as a hallucination.

I quoted this in an earlier Post about Delgado from today's NY Times, and then forgot to give the link. Let's try that again, shall we? COMN, registration required however, hence the generous quote:

The Mets are zeroing in on Carlos Delgado, the free-agent first baseman from the Toronto Blue Jays, who is as controversial as he is appealing.

Delgado is celebrated for hitting more than 30 home runs in each of the past eight years, and is considered a positive force in the clubhouse, but he was jeered at Yankee Stadium last season because he has declined to stand on the field during the playing of "God Bless America"... many teams, including the Mets, now play it only on weekends and holidays.

... he would satisfy two of the Mets' most substantial needs. The team has no starting first baseman and only one legitimate left-handed power hitter, Cliff Floyd, whom Minaya is looking to trade.

Signing a 1b right-handed hitter with a .800-.850 OPS against lefties should cost much less than Alou.

How about Josh Phelps? ;-)

The Jays have signed lefty Scott Downs to a minor league deal.

Paging the Bone? Paging the Bone?

Any suggestions in the lottery that you'd like to share?

You know, we need some kind of Batter's Box Rumor Rating System (BBRRS). As I envision it, each poster could subjectively decide on a comparative solidness of the rumor that they are posting, based on its likelihood and the source, and append that to the end of their post.

Totally fake examples:

The Associated Press is reporting that so-and-so has signed for such-and-such with whomever would get a BBRRS rating of cement, or perhaps wet cement if it seemed unlikely.

Marty York is reporting that someone is about to sign for something with someone would probably get a BBRRS rating of Spinach dip.

Some guy on fanhome says the Jays have signed Beltran would get a BBRRS rating of watery coffee if the poster was feeling generous.

Feel free to modify or adapt this concept to fit your own posts.

http://www.crtc.gc.ca/archive/ENG/Decisions/2002/db2002-420.htm
Good news everyone!

Rogers Broadcasting IS allowed to broadcast Blue Jay games between after 2002. COMN.

The wonders of technology.

Jobu,

Unless I'm missing something, that statement was issued two years ago. Why are you linking to it?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1947751
Beltre to the Mariners - 5 for $65.

Good thing Koskie is already signed. I imagine the Dodgers would have pushed the price tag up a bit.

The Associated Press is reporting that so-and-so has signed for such-and-such with whomever would get a BBRRS rating of cement, or perhaps wet cement if it seemed unlikely.

Marty York is reporting that someone is about to sign for something with someone would probably get a BBRRS rating of Spinach dip.

Some guy on fanhome says the Jays have signed Beltran would get a BBRRS rating of watery coffee if the poster was feeling generous.

Actually, I would put more trust in a rumor from the guy on fanhome than Marty York, but that's just me... ;-)

Then, Lee, it is up to you to determine what non-solid substance to compare Marty York's rumors to. Remember, it's on a case-by-case basis.

Then, Lee, it is up to you to determine what non-solid substance to compare Marty York's rumors to.

Excellent! Now, what's less solid than thin air...

I should have realized the amount of people in this forum who would be listening to the Bob McDB show would be low.

About 10 minutes ago instead of commercials they had one of those "official" announcements with a guy telling the audience that they Rogers just got approval of a petition put to the CRTC and if you want to view that petition you can go to the building on Jarvis and ask to see it, or go to this website, I did, and thats what I found. It made me laugh.

I apologize.

The bitterly cold vacuum of space?

The bitterly cold vacuum of space?

Yep, that sounds about right.

Note: As you may be able to tell, I am not high on Marty's journalistic integrity or prowess...

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3254634
I imagine the Dodgers would have pushed the price tag up a bit.

Perobably, although the Dodgers have a decent fall-back plan: Cora stays at 2B, Kent slides over to 3B.

Ken Rosenthal of TSN reports that the Dodgers are part of a three-way being discussed that would send Randy Johnson to the Yankees, Shawn Green and maybe Edwin Jackson to Arizona, Javier Vazquez to the Dodgers.COMN.

Doesn't seem like Arizona gets much out of that deal, depending of course on who picks up salary.

Ken Rosenthal of TSN reports that the Dodgers are part of a three-way being discussed that would send Randy Johnson to the Yankees, Shawn Green and maybe Edwin Jackson to Arizona, Javier Vazquez to the Dodgers.COMN.

I rank this one a creamy bernaise sauce

Doesn't seem like Arizona gets much out of that deal, depending of course on who picks up salary.

I agree. However, given their recent inept moves, that shouldn't be a deal breaker... ;-)

I believe Johnson and Green are making about the same amount of money. And Rosenthal says the Dodgers would want someone to pick up part of Vazquez's price tag...

Other factor: Jeff Moorad of the D-Backs used to be Shawn Green's agent.

Perhaps we could just have a scale where 'Marty York' is comparable to absolute zero.

'Marty York says: The Brewers are set to lock up Prince Fielder for a billion dollars' gets a Marty York.

'The homeless guy outside Skydome says: Peter Mansbridge is an alien and has the power to confer baldness upon you' gets a Marty York +10.

'The homeless guy outside Skydome says: Peter Mansbridge is an alien and has the power to confer baldness upon you' gets a Marty York +10.

So the scale goes from 0-10 then?

Perhaps we could just have a scale where 'Marty York' is comparable to absolute zero.

'Marty York says: The Brewers are set to lock up Prince Fielder for a billion dollars' gets a Marty York.

'The homeless guy outside Skydome says: Peter Mansbridge is an alien and has the power to confer baldness upon you' gets a Marty York +10.

I'm all for any system in which the ravings of a homeless lunatic are considered more reliable than Marty York. :)

I rank this one a creamy bernaise sauce

So you like it? You think it's tasty? Or too darn fattening?

Anyone else following this whole fascinating story out of Washington? Could the Nationals end up playing in DC for a year, and then moving on? Will the Expos end up in the Nevada desert? Could they end up in Mexico, Puerto Rico, or even... gasp... back at Olympic Stadium?

When Bud Selig and Linda Cropp play chicken, who blinks?

Will the Expos end up in the Nevada desert? Could they end up in Mexico, Puerto Rico, or even... gasp... back at Olympic Stadium?

Let me put it this way: the folks in Montreal had better not get rid of that turf just yet...

'The homeless guy outside Skydome says: Peter Mansbridge is an alien and has the power to confer baldness upon you'

I wish I'd known that. I bumped into Mansbridge in a Rabba one night... the rest is history. My hair, especially, is history.

or even... gasp... back at Olympic Stadium?

Ouch.... that's worse than leaving your stuff at an Ex's house and having to go back and pick it up.

Selig: Hey...Hi.... Uhhhh... Listen, I just need to get some things and I'll leave
Montreal: Ohhhh.... you've got some nerve comming back here

Moises Alou has been discussed above as a possible aquisition. How about Magglio Ordonez though? He's probably be interested in a one year dealto re-establish his value, and while a risk, he offers tremendous potential reward at the DH spot. Maybe 1 year, 6.5 million?

Robert Dudek that may have been a joke I'm not too sure tough to tell on the internet. But JP stated today that he's not interested in Josh Phelps.

I think Marty York deserves his own verb:

- Are you telling the truth or just Yorking me?
- I need a crazy rumour to lead an article with. York me up, will ya?
- Man, that story was Yorked out of nowhere!

Oops forget to refresh first I was commenting on a post from long ago haha. Sorry.

How about Magglio Ordonez though?

this has been mentioned a couple of times. But from all that I've seen mentioned, there's a couple of problems with Maggs:

* You have only Scott Boras' word that he can throw a baseball. ie, teams are not allowed to do a pre-contract workout.

* As implied by that first point, Scott Boras is his agent.

* As implied by that second point, he's not going to come cheap. At all.

Given the contracts to Sexon/Glaus, I find it hard to believe that Boras would let Maggs go for anything less than $9-10MM/year

Marty York: My sources tell me ....... I'm full of crap.

When Bud Selig and Linda Cropp play chicken, who blinks?

My money is on Linda Cropp, which is unfortunate. I'm no fan of the extortionist tactics employed by leagues and teams to get taxpayers to pony up the cash for the stadia that make the owners and players the money they do, but I think Councilwoman Cropp and those who voted for her amendment have misread the situation. MLB is not going to renegotiate the deal they've struck with Mayor Williams; they either repass the financing bill without her amendment, or the Nationals will have a very short lifespan.

That said, her amendment passed 7-6. I think they can, and will, get the one vote they need to repeal the amendment and pass a new version of the financing arrangement.

Mind you, Marty York is having a much better offseason than me - he scooped everyone on the Paul Godfrey housefire story - so take that prediction with a massive grain of salt.

piece on Carlos Tosca, in which he passes the buck for last year's problems and implies Ricciardi is a hypocritical control freak.

an article about Carlos Tosca that Prisoner of Hamilton linked to at the end of the last roundup thread. Since there hasn't been a lot of comment on it, I am considering it "still fresh". ;)

I posted this on yesterday's Roundup thread, thinking it was today's:

The comments made by Tosca echo those he made while being interviewed by Chuck Swirsky on The Fan 590 two weeks ago. Swirsky (no fan of Ricciardi) egged Tosca on in being critical of JP and in coming just short of accusing JP of using him as little more than a puppet.

In that interview and again in the linked article, Tosca comes across as blaming everything on injuries, despite the fact that the Jays were woeful before the injuries and again after them. In neither was the question of bullpen management (in my view one of the most important factors in winning games) mentioned. I, for one, find it hard to believe that JP was telling Tosca which BP pitchers to use in each game this past season.

I liked Tosca and thought he did a good job in difficult circumstances in 2002 and, to a lesser extent, in 2003 (Could the Jays have won more games in 2003 with better BP management? Maybe.)

I would feel better about him now if he had just taken a somewhat higher position and admitted that he was a rookie Major Legaue manager saddled with devastating injuries.

They will contract the Expos and Marlins in 2006. In 2008, Loria will move into Vegas and whoever gets a stadium built, anywhere, will get an expansion team.

They will contract the Expos and Marlins in 2006. In 2008, Loria will move into Vegas and whoever gets a stadium built, anywhere, will get an expansion team.

If they contract two teams after 2006, I strongly doubt they will expand again for several years. If I understand the reasons behind the contraction argument, it makes fiscal sense because whatever losses will be absorbed by MLB in operating a vagabond Expos team over the next two seasons will be more than offset by the splitting of shared revenues between a smaller number of teams (as well as the presumed depressive effect on player salaries, although I suspect this will not happen to any great extent). If they restore the status quo ante by expanding in 2008, they eliminate the economic rationale behind contraction. The only way this possibly resounds to the owner's benefit is if they believe the expansion fees in 2008 would be so much greater than the price they can peddle the Expos for that it would compensate for taking two further years of losses on the team. It would be such a public relations debacle that I cannot see it happening. Of course, for that very reason, it may be precisely what happens.

Selig: Hey...Hi.... Uhhhh... Listen, I just need to get some things and I'll leave
Montreal: Ohhhh.... you've got some nerve comming back here

That's a riot.

"That Darn Selig" will be the first spin off of Too Many Molinas!

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/tor/news/tor_press_release.jsp?ymd=20041216&content_id=923296&vkey=pr_tor&fext=.jsp
Here is the press release on the Downs signing COMN

Contain your excitement everyone!

Contain your excitement everyone!

I cant promise I'll try.... but I'll try to try

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/tor/news/tor_news.jsp?ymd=20041215&content_id=922754&vkey=news_tor&fext=.jsp
I'm not sure if anyone has linked this or not. I don't believe so however, so here it is. Prison Fences' world famous mailbag. Comn and Enjoy.

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/tor/news/tor_news.jsp?ymd=20041215&content_id=922754&vkey=news_tor&fext=.jsp
Did anyone mention or link to the newest Jays mailbag w/ SF?? I don't remember seeing it, COMN to read it.

According to rotoworld:

ESPNews is reporting that Tim Hudson has been traded to Atlanta for Juan Cruz, Dan Meyer and Charles Thomas

Wet cement?

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/home_MLB.asp?sport=MLB
Rotoworld is saying Tim Hudson is traded to Atlanta COMN

Couldn't find anyone else mentioning this, maybe im just blind

Jays sign Scott Downs

Yes, I am blind

This has been a really odd series of posts:

-Downs signed
-Mailbag up
-Mailbag up
-Hudson trade
-Hudson trade
-Downs signed

Its been mentioned a couple times VBF, actually The Bone predicted it this morning, pretty cool eh?

Ugh.

I'm killing myself over here, that is good stuff.

The Hudson trade appears official. It's not a terrible package, but I was expecting more for Hudson. Meyer's a good prospect and Cruz had a good year after it appeared his shine may have worn off, but there's nothing in there that makes you go, "Wow."

I've created a new thread to discuss the Downs signing.

Does anyone know exactly how to pronouce the Met's GM's last name?

my g/f just called asking b/c she has to say it for her news cast re: Pedro's signing.

"Does anyone know exactly how to pronouce the Met's GM's last name?"

Ma-Ni-Ya

thanks Ron

To the guy who said "why is everyone talking about getting another pitcher if Clement signs elsewhere?" - for me, its because I like the idea of adding another solid starter to fit inbetween Halladay and Lilly, and infront of Batista (who's better in the rotation) and Bush. I'd love to see another starter and pair of relievers acquired - I'd suggested Williamson earlier (but agree Pistol, if its the shoulder I'd rather the Jays stay away), another option would be Paul Shuey to go along with Steve Kline. That'd be a solid pen.
Burnett might be worth it - especially if a multiyear deal could be negotiated in advance. This despite the cost, which I presume might mean Gabe Gross plus more good prospects. Even if he bolts after a year, you will reclain two prospects via draft compensation. Coming off injury, and he was still excellent - and again, its the elbow not the shoulder.
In an ideal world, I'd love to see that 14 mil or so reel in: Kline and Shuey at roughly 2mil per, Alou at 5mil per, and Burnett at 6+mil (adding ligtenburg to the deal to make it fit). That roster wouldn't be so far removed from competing with the Yanks and Sox I don't think.

With Beltre going to the Mariners I'm wondering if this opens up a door for Delgado to go to the Dodgers?

Is Kent the Dodgers 3rd Baseman now or might we see a deal along the lines of Hinske for Choi?

Hey, first time post.

Just wondering what you guys think it would take to pry Nick Johnson out of Washington (other than Rios). Even though he is yet another lefthanded bat, he seems a good fit for a young ballclub like the Jays in need of a 1B. Strong defensively, good bat, only needs a healthy year to break out IMO.

BREAKING NEWS!!!

Randy Johnson has been traded to the Yankees, or so says ESPNews!

They said that Brad Penny, Shawn Green, Javy Vazquez and 2 yankee minor leaguers (Cano/Navarro) are involved.

If this trade is official (it is) then the Yankees are the favorites for the world series.

Newsday just said something about a three way deal. Dodgers, DBacks, and Yanks, huh?

http://www.newsday.com/sports/ny-sprandy1217,0,3877851.story?coll=ny-homepage-big-pix
COMN for the Johnson story from Newsday...

IT'S OFFICIAL!

Yanks get:
Randy Johnson

Dodgers get:
Javier Vazquez
Dioner Navarro - C
Eric Duncan - 3B

DBacks get:
Brad Penny
Shawn Green
Brazoban

Look out Red Sox, cause the Boss is coming back!

Just when I was starting to feel good about not having to face Tim Hudson or Pedro Martinez anymore...

Ryan, add to that the fact that the self-proclaimed HERO OF THE WORLD Curt Schilling is going to miss the beginning of the year and American League pitching looks pretty weak right about now.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20041216&content_id=923101&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp
Ewww, and if that isn't bad enough, Derek Jeter's 'play' into the stands was voted as the TWIB 'play of the year'. If you ever needed more proof in the addage that 'a person is smart; people are dumb', there it is. COMN

DaveinNYC, that's not official. That's a rumour, albeit a fleshed out one. Read the Newsday article carefully. Every year, we go through about 10 of these, and a good number never happen despite the projections of the unnamed sources in the articles.

If the trade happens, it won't help me in my little catcher contest with Gleeman. Navarro's not going to hit real well in LA.

By the way, Dave, where is the trade "official?"

Also, with regards to the link Fozzzy posted above:

[B]aseball fans watched it again and again..Jeter ran, full-speed, and dove after a Trot Nixon popup that was caught in the seats during the Yankees-Red Sox July 1 game in the Bronx -

Obviously they didn't watch it enough.

If this trade does happen, the Dodgers better be paying a LOT of money to the D-Backs. Otherwise this is an unbelievable steal.

Moffatt, I take it that you mean a steal by the Dodgers. If so, I agree that it would be, and given the parties involved, it wouldn't surprise me.

Yeah. I figured that was implied. :)

I take it that if ESPN is reporting it, it's pretty much official.

I doubt they'd want to look that foolish if it wasn't really official.

Wait. Isn't Penny a free agent next year?

So the D-Backs get one year of Shawn Green at an insane salary, one year of Brad Penny at somewhat below market rates, and Yhency Brazoban. That's *it*?

For that the Dodgers get 3 years at Vaz at about market wage, the Yanks best prospect, and their 1st round pick from 2003?

Wow. Just wow. Like I said, this better had not be the final deal. There must be some cash or something involved.

Well, no. ESPN Radio may very well be getting its info from Newsday. There's nothing on espn.com about the proposed trade.

Newsday is inferring that Shawn Green would waive his no-trade clause because Moorad is (was?) his agent.

MLB.com is also citing Newsday's report.

Whoa.

I actually thought it was a pretty bad deal for the Dodgers. I mean, dumping Green's contract is nice, and so is getting Navarro, but losing Brazoban hurts and swapping Penny for Vazquez can't really be viewed as an upgrade can it? Plus you can't just brush aside Green's production like it's nothing.

I'm wondering if this opens up a door for Delgado to go to the Dodgers?

It may have just opened up a lot wider, Niles. They can afford him, too, with Green off the books.

Super deal for DePo if it's true, with Vazquez much less of a question mark than Penny. By punting what's left of their farm system, the Yankees move ahead of the Red Sox for 2005, so they and their fans are happy. As Moffatt says, the D-Backs get taken to the cleaners unless L.A. is paying most of Green's salary. I somehow doubt it; they must be printing counterfeit money in Phoenix.

By my estimation, Penny will be a free-agent after 2006.

Are sure about that? I know we've had this discussion earlier. I think Penny was a Super-2. That's what must be screwing me up. :)

If Penny has 2 years left, not one, this makes this a much better trade for the D-Backs and a worse one for the Dodgers. Again, depends on how much cash is flying around.

This frees up a lot of money for the Dodgers; I suspect they've already got a target or two to spend it on. (Delgado? Clement? Beltran?)

Okay. Now I'm really confused.

Penny made the Marlins out of spring training 2000, and pitched in the 5th game of the year.

Since he was never sent down, that should give him 5 full years of service time (2000-2004).

At the end of this season, he'd have 6 full years of service time.

Why is he not a free agent? There must be something I'm missing, but I'm not sure what it is. :)

Moffat,

It appears you are right. He did a couple of rehab assignmenst in 2000, but was never sent down. Currently, he should have 5.0 years of service time, meaning he'll be a free agent at the end of the year.

We don't know a lot right now (perhaps Arizona is negotiating an extension with Penny), and we don't know about the money.

What kind of rating does Newsday and DaveInNYC get on NFH's credibility scale - a vinagrette?

A trade that was dubbed "official" in this thread now has to overcome the following obstacles according to a story at espn.com:

1) "The trade was proposed before Adrian Beltre agreed to a $64 million, five-year deal with the Mariners on Thursday. By failing to re-sign Beltre, the Dodgers may rethink their role in the trade, ESPN.com's Jayson Stark reported."

2) "Other issues that threatened to derail the trade include the waiving of Green's no-trade clause. A source close to Green told ESPN.com that the Dodgers outfielder is happy living in Southern California, where he grew up, and has expressed no desire to leave Los Angeles."

3) "How much money the Diamondbacks would receive from the Yankees is also a point of contention. Sources told Stark that moving Duncan and Navarro would preclude the Yankees from sending money to Arizona."

4) "Another obstacle that reportedly would derail the trade is Vazquez's salary; he is due $34.5 million over the next three seasons and Los Angeles apparently wants help from the Yankees footing the bill."

The ESPN article reports that none of the teams involved has confirmed the deal. Randy Johnson's agent did not comment on the deal. Paul DePodesta said earlier today that they were discussing various 3-way and 4-way deals.

Can we please be a little more careful when posting rumours of a trade as a done deal?

Can we please be a little more careful when posting rumours of a trade as a done deal?

Robert, I think seeing it as a Breaking News Alert crawl on ESPNews is sufficient reason to post a deal as being done. Granted, just about everyone involved now is backing off on it, but who am I to doubt That Guy Who Won Dream Job?

Robert, I think seeing it as a Breaking News Alert crawl on ESPNews is sufficient reason to post a deal as being done.

Obviously it isn't.

Several days ago I saw the Tim Hudson to LA "trade" scroll across the Rogers Sportsnet ticker.

I don't see how we can just ignore the trade Robert. If I read about a trade on ESPN I would beleive it, most people would. Trades are fun to talk about, and that's why we're all here, to talk.

He didn't suggest anyone ignore it, simply that no one call it a done deal.

You can talk discuss rumoured trades or signings as rumoured trades or signings, and actual trades or signings as actual trades or signings - what else have we been doing here the past week?

I don't like it when a rumoured trade is reported here as if it has actually taken place.

Honestly Robert, I really don't care what I get on NFH's credibility scale, no disrespect though to NFH. My credibility on a website really means nothing to me in the overall scheme of things, no disrespect to the Box, you can take ALL of my posts with a grain of salt for all I care.

I saw the trade on ESPNews, then I saw them say "Peter Gammons takes a look at the winners and losers in this blockbuster." Or something along those lines. Most times more than not, that means it's official. Is it my fault that moments later they specified that it was NOT official and that the deal had apparently hit a snag? Does everyone have to wait until they say the word OFFICIAL and then it can be passed on?

I was only doing what anyone else would do.

Why don't you pass it on as a "rumoured deal", "possible deal", "imminent deal, according to Newsday or whatever" ?

"I was only doing what anyone else would do."

Incorrect, as I, and I suspect, all of the roster members and most of the posters would not have dubbed the deal as "official" based on the information available at the time. The rule of thumb is to wait for several different sources to confirm the deal, among them one or more of the participants. Only then can we be confident that the deal is official and done.

We hold posters at this site to a fairly high standard, so if you're not sure about something, the best policy is to be cautious and qualify your statements.

Incorrect, as I, and I suspect, all of the roster members and most of the posters would not have dubbed the deal as "official" based on the information available at the time.

Ummm ... Not so much. My bad, I guess. I'll go deactivate the thread (so the preceding link probably won't work if you click it).

No need to deactivate. Maybe change the intro paragraph.

This is just ridiculous. ESPN and WFAN radio both treated the trade as a trade, not as a trade rumor. Dave if you could be so kind as to confirm directly with DePo or Cashman next time. Thx.

"The rule of thumb is to wait for several different sources to confirm the deal, among them one or more of the participants. Only then can we be confident that the deal is official and done.

We hold posters at this site to a fairly high standard, so if you're not sure about something, the best policy is to be cautious and qualify your statements."

Is this really necessary? Rule of thumb? Sounds you a Sports Radio station rule of thumb to me.

Why is Robert treating this issue so seriously? If sportsnet, the Score, ESPN, all say the deal is but done, you certainly should not blame the poster.

MikeD, we already have a roster member Mike Denyszyn who posts as MikeD. Could you please choose a different posting name.

Not speaking of trades until they're official, demands for posters to change names. Da Box's enforcement wing is alive and well!!

On a lighter note, is there any new news on Clement signing anywhere? And if Delgado signs with the Mets for 3 yrs $30, will I be the only who's upset that the Jays didn't try to offer something along those lines, considering it looks like that Jays are willing to offer 24-27 million for 3 yrs to Clement?

Jim, who said "don't post unofficial trades"? Show me the post. Show me anyone who said anything close to that.

Once again, for those who are having such a hard time understanding it: read the articles referenced. If it says "it's official", then that's pretty good, you can post that it's a trade. But when all the references say it's "close", CALL IT 'CLOSE', NOT A DONE DEAL. In this case, the article that EVERYONE referenced said that the GMs were not commenting and that there were details left to be ironed out. Does that sound like "we have made this trade" to anyone? No.

All we are asking for is that you call rumors "rumors" and source your info. Unless you have something solid, don't call it solid.

And for the names thing, does it not make sense to you to keep things straight by not allowing duplicate names? Yes, we are moving to different software that will make it impossible to post with someone else's name, but for now can't we simply ask that people use different names from each other? What the hell is wrong with that?

WFAN and ESPN were not saying it was close, they were saying it was a trade. I've got the Hartford Courant in front of me. The headline is 'Bronx Unit': 'Randy Johnson Joins the Yankees'.

There is a very good chance that article has changed. The time on it is later then the time that we were discussing the trade last night.

I just don't understand why if ESPN and WFAN say trade, posters are somehow supposed to not believe that.

Did they say "It's a trade", or did they say "Newsday is reporting..."?

The details of what is said on the radio and TV is often lost when someone posts about it here.

That Hartford Courant -- what does it say in the article? Does it say what Newsday said, that details aren't ironed out and that no one will comment on it?

I just don't understand why if ESPN and WFAN say trade, posters are somehow supposed to not believe that.

Unless someone got really overexcited, I can't see them saying just "trade" and not qualifying it with "maybe" or "possible" or "Newsday is reporting..."

By the way, this is what I was trying to say in a more humorous, nicer way in my above post about the BBRRS. Didn't really get through, I guess.

NFH I was being a tad facetious...but i think we'll need to lighten up a bit. We're not reporters, we're fans trying to have a little fun in otherwise quiet time as a baseball fan.

not qualifying it with "maybe" or "possible" or "Newsday is reporting..."

I hate this tactic, saying a trade is possible is a cheap way of getting a scoop without doing any work... if it doesn't happen you just shrug your shoulders...

and saying "according to ESPN,..." is just another cheap way of denying responsibility for the report.. its not liabilous, ESPN really did say it, but its not confirmed either...

I've actually heard a "suggestion" posted on TSN, that was reported on the FAN as being reported by TSN and then reported on TSN again as "being circulated by other media outlets"... but it was never based on ANYTHING

Just because we're fans doesn't mean that we can't have a higher standard than other sites. What I love about Batter's Box is that I don't have to have my bullshit detector turned on all the time, that I can trust the information that I get here. Being a little strict about what is posted allows us all to feel that way.

I no longer have the courant in front of me. There are 3 stories and a bunch of charts. One story references 'brink' of a deal. One story gets into the roster implications. One story is a columnist take based on it being a done deal. The charts refer to the Yankee rotation with Johnson.

I only heard a few flashes on WFAN. At one point they were referencing Newsday - at other times they weren't.

Newsday themselves may have changed the article on-line: If I remember correctly it's now stamped with a 11:xx PM timestamp. We were discussing the trade earlier then that. We had enough time to make twenty some odd posts in a thread posted by a roster member.

I guess if you want to hold Dave to a higher standard then ESPN (ABC) or WFAN (Infinity Broadcasting) that's fine, but at the time the media sure did represent it as a done deal.

Penny for Vazquez can't really be viewed as an upgrade can it?

Well, taking their careers as a whole into consideration, I certainly wouldn't call it a downgrade.

Jim, comments from other posters before the Newsday article was updated clearly say that the Newsday article is not saying that it is solid.

In addition, the article from The Sporting News posted just before that says

There was no confirmation from any of the teams that a deal was finalized. And one source said it still could fall apart because so many players and clubs were involved.

It's not about a higher standard than ESPN or WFAN. I am going to say it again: I do not believe that either of those stations called it a "done deal". Like I said above, I'm betting that both stations referenced the Newsday story and said something like "Newsday is reporting..."

It's not too hard to repeat that in your post, instead of saying "IT'S OFFICIAL!"

I can promise you that WFAN reacted as if the deal was solid. They reported is as done, even if it was just Newsday reporting it. Then proceeded to take phone calls for an hour discussing the trade, never once not saying it was done.

ESPN scrolled it on ESPNNews. Even if it said Newsday reports, it wasn't saying Newsday reports it's close, it said Newsday reports this is a trade.

If that isn't a higher standard then ESPN and WFAN in your mind that's fine. Of course there was also a thread on this very site posted by one of the authors. I guess that is ignored now.. Robert can get back to hammering Dave.

Who knows, maybe ESPN and WFAN (and the Courant) were just getting their information from Batter's Box ;->

#268213 Posted 12/13/2004 04:04 PM by mr predictor:

Mick, I agree Vazquez gets to LA, but I think it'll happen with RJ going to the Yanks and Penny & Navarro going to AZ.

If that isn't a higher standard then ESPN and WFAN in your mind that's fine. Of course there was also a thread on this very site posted by one of the authors. I guess that is ignored now.. Robert can get back to hammering Dave.

Hammering? Robert wrote exactly what I wrote: attribute it to the source, and read carefully to make sure that you're getting the story right. Am I hammering Dave, or you?

And as far as I understand it, that other thread is being restored with an altered intro. It, too, was hasty.

If WFAN really reported it as a done deal based on a Newsday story that clearly said it wasn't a done deal, wow, they have some pretty lousy news standards.

Well..

'What kind of rating does Newsday and DaveInNYC get on NFH's credibility scale - a vinagrette?'

Maybe hammering isn't the right word, what exactly do you call this?

Of course, he would never make a mistake.

'Incorrect, as I, and I suspect, all of the roster members and most of the posters would not have dubbed the deal as "official" based on the information available at the time.'

Whoops.

Here is a pretty rational comment from Mick:

'Robert, I think seeing it as a Breaking News Alert crawl on ESPNews is sufficient reason to post a deal as being done.'

The deal was represented in a few places as being done. It isn't. I don't get why that means that 'management' has to be arrogant and swarmy to a poster.

There are so very few quality baseball discussion sites on the internet. The level here is very high and I appreciate the desire of many to keep it at that level. It's just a shame that some of the Roster here is insufferable at times.

The deal was represented in a few places as being done. It isn't. I don't get why that means that 'management' has to be arrogant and swarmy to a poster.

There are so very few quality baseball discussion sites on the internet. The level here is very high and I appreciate the desire of many to keep it at that level. It's just a shame that some of the Roster here is insufferable at times.

"Arrogant" and "insufferable" are words that are attributing emotions and intents to Robert's words that are not there. Half the problem of discussion on the internet is that you cannot see the face of the other person or hear their voice as they say the words.

Having spoken, in person, to Robert a number of times, I hear "What kind of rating does Newsday and DaveInNYC get on NFH's credibility scale - a vinagrette?" in Robert's voice very clearly as a joke. And my whole intention in making that scale in the first place was to have a way to discredit a rumor that was funny and not offensive to the person who posted it, because so often people take attacks on the credibility of something they've posted as an attack on them as a person.

Well then if it's a communication issue, who's fault is the misunderstanding? Mine or the person attempting to communicate?

I know you made the scale as a joke, I didn't post anything to the contrary. If Robert is joking, it's pretty tough to tell, it sure didn't seem like Dave took it as a joke.

Sorry, what I was saying was that I made the scale as a joke and Robert was playing along with it. I have trouble picturing a non-joking use of the scale.

Anyways, it's unfortunate that in trying to keep the standards of Batter's Box high that we end up with misunderstandings and people who are unhappy. But the alternative would be to let it become the kind of wild west that the rest of the internet seems to have degenerated into, and I don't think that anyone really wants that. In a perfect world, we'd all communicate well and there would be no misunderstandings. And also I'd have a jet car and a house made of gold.

And also I'd have a jet car and a house made of gold.

BBRRS: helium.

What are the 2005 Blue Jays salares???

In an ideal world, I'd love to see that 14 mil or so reel in: Kline and Shuey at roughly 2mil per, Alou at 5mil per, and Burnett at 6+mil (adding ligtenburg to the deal to make it fit).

I think the $14-15 million figure was what the Jays have planned to spend all together, so it's now about $9 million after the Koskie signing.