I would buy an absolutely amazing yacht. :)

Heh.. or maybe a solid gold house or a rocket car.

Oh yeah? Well there's one thing money can't buy.


...

A dinosaur.

I would pay off my Visa, Mastercard, HBC, and Sears card. I would then pay off my wife's and my student loans. Any money left over would be to buy out Hinske's contract and send him on his way.

Oh yeah? Well there's one thing money can't buy.

...

A dinosaur.

Have you been talking to Carl Everett again?

Clement - $7 mil per/3 years (same deal Lieber just signed)
Koskie - $4 mil per
Kline - $2 mil per
Giambi - minor league deal with bonus clauses (after the Yankees release him)

hehehe, sorry I couldn't resist

I'm actually at a loss for what the Jays can and should do at this point. I think the Jays were hoping and somewhat banking on the trend toward market corrections that we started to see last year. The Benson, Wright, and now reported Glaus signings have seemed to price us out of the free agent market completely.

That being said, I just don't have a clue about what to do. I almost think you have to figure we're not gonna be competitive for a few years and just try to sign or trade for a bunch of young players with upside with the $14 million. Sorry about the lack of specifics, but I just don't have a clue of how to dig us out right now.

Koskie 3years 15 million. 4mil/5mil/6mil
Clement 3 years 21 million. 6mil/7mil/8mil
Dye 2 years 8 million 3.5mil/4.5mil
Billy Kock 1 plus option. .5mil/ 1.5mil team option

Nice work, Mark! I suspect Clement will go for more than that, but Dye may end up going for less. So that package of players could be feasible.

Where would Dye play? Left? Then is Cat your DH? And who plays 1B?

I missed yours GFR. I like, but I think Koskie will get $5mil+ rather than $4.

Does anyone have an opinion on what the post-steroids, post-parasite, post-tumor Giambi might command? And, what type of career does anyone anticipate him having? Methinks he might be a cheap option if no one else is willing to take a risk.

Grand Funk out.

Dye could play left/DH. Cat would play left/1B . and Hinske plays 1B/DH unless of course you can move him wich I doubt. Maybe the absence of pressure to improve on the feild will help his game. Although you could probably get better numbers with a combination of Olerud/Franco/Seirra for half the price. That is actually very sad.

Before you laugh check out these numbers by Wilson Alvarez

Season   TM    IP    H    R   ER   HR   BB   SO    W    L    ERA
2003 LA 95.0 80 27 25 5 23 82 6 2 2.37
2004 LA 120.2 109 56 54 12 31 102 7 6 4.03

I think he could be a very affordable lefty on the roster

That being said, I just don't have a clue about what to do.

Me neither, which was part of the motivation for this thread.

This off-season is really going to test JP's ability as a General Manager. I'm glad it's him and not me making the decision; I wouldn't know what to do. This is make-or-break time, so I wish the front office the best of luck.

Mark - Wilson Alvarez is not good enough to warrant losing a second round draft pick...

I’d try a Phil Nevin (the Padres are interest in trading Nevin or Klesko, but Klesko has a no trade) and Adam Eaton for Miguel Batista, Eric Hinske and Vinny Chulk. That would result in adding roughly $4 million to the 2005 budget, but save a little money in the long term.

Then I would take a lefty in the Rule 5 of either Andy Sisco (if not already taken), Royce Ring or Blake McGinley for the bullpen. Sisco has the greatest upside for the future but the other two would have better immediate success. The cost of the rule 5 pick would be negated by the loss of Chulk.

I would offer Kevin Millwood a one-year contract for $6 million and allow him to build his marketability for the 2005 off-season or I would give him a two-year, $10 million contract. ($6 million)

Then I would sign Randa to replace Hinske for $3 million.

I would also throw out an offer to either Steve Reed or Kent Mercker for between $750,000 and $1 million.

A minor contract (w/spring invite) would also be offered to a slugging minor vet like Graham Koonce. His major league minimum contract would be balanced out by not offering a 2005 contract to Frederick.

$4 million
$6 million
$3 million
$1 million
(plus a minor league deal)

Therefore, $14 million would equal a loss of Hinske, Batista, Frederick and Chulk, but a gain of Nevin, Randa, Koonce, Eaton, Ring, Millwood and Reed.

2005 Jays
SP- Halladay, Lilly, Millwood, Eaton, Bush
RP- Reed, Ligtenberg, Speier, Ring, Glynn, Frasor and Towers
Starting- Myers, Nevin, Hudson, Randa, Adams, Koonce, Catalanotto, Wells, Rios
Bench- Cash, Menechino, McDonald, Johnson

There are some holes, obviously, but that is going to happen with a $50-plus million budget. There is no proven closer, but the rotation is really nice and should provide a lot of innings. Reed has experience closing and Speier or Frasor could be given another shot.

Koonce won’t make a huge impact, but he should keep the spot warm until Crozier or Gross is ready. Catching is a problem too, but Myers and Cash offer good defence/game calling and should keep the spot warm until Quiorz is ready at mid-season. If he isn’t ready on time, than a minor league vet (like Huckaby, Wilson and Zaun in past years) could be found.

I think the starting rotation, alone, would give the Jays a chance to compete (at least for third place).

1. Re-sign Gregg Zaun
2. Complete proposed Nick Johnson for Alex Rios trade
3. Package Hinske with top prospects for Austin Kearns (I understand excellent prospect talent would have to be given up - and likely cash paid to Cincinnati)
4. Get a LOOGY for under a million
5. Spend 2-2.5 million on a non-tendered righty (basically spend 3 million on 2 relievers)
6. Get another lefty in the Rule 5 draft
7. Sign Joe Randa to a one year deal (2 millionish I'd guess)
7. Spend rest of money (possibly as much as 8 million) on Clement

1. O-Dog
2. Cat
3. VW
4. Nick the Stick
5. Kearnsie
6. Randa
7. Myers (DH)
8. Zaun
9. Russ

Bench: Cash, Menechino (DH if Myers catches or against righties), McDonald, Reeder

Rotation: Doc, Lilly, Clement, Bush, Batista

Bullpen: Speier, Ligter, Frasor, Chulk, FA Righty, FA Loogy, R5 Lefty

Mark - Wilson Alvarez is not good enough to warrant losing a second round draft pick...

Doesn't that only matter if the Jays sign absolutely nobody else? I assume that if they were to (say) sign three Type A/B free agents, they wouldn't lose three draft picks. (The teams losing the players would still get the "sandwich" pick, but only the team losing the "best" player would get Toronto's pick, right?)

If that's the case, I think JP should take advantage of the fact that they can't lose a first-rounder this year, and sign all the compensation-worthy FAs he can. Is it worth losing a 2nd-rounder to sign Alvarez? Maybe not, but if losing the same pick allows the team to sign several quality FAs....

I don't know how I owuld spend it all but I would try giving a very little piece to Travis Lee, he has the potential to be a decent fit at 1b I think

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_press_release.jsp?ymd=20041209&content_id=919988&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp
but Dye may end up going for less.

Nope. He signed with the White Sox. COMN.

Alvarez is certainly interesting, but I fear he could be a creature of Chavez Ravine.

Home 2004
3.20, 70 IP, 63 H, 4 HR, 17 BB, 59 K
Road 2004
5.19, 50 IP, 46 H, 8 HR, 14 BB, 43 K

His last three GB/FB ratios have been 0.55, 0.96 and 0.74 -- he's an extreme flyball pitcher for whom Skydome could be brutal.

Since I'm completely enamored with the Jays getting Durazo, let's start there. He made $2.1M last season and I think is eligible for arbitration. Let's assume that JP gets him for prospects and that he gets a 20% raise in arbitration, so that's $2.5M. We need another bat. One option is to bring back former Jay Tony Batista, who could take over 3B and move Hinske to 1B (or another team, preferably). Batista's average and OBP are certainly not terribly impressive, but his production (32 HR and 110 RBI last season in a very weak Montreal lineup) is just what the Jays need. Another option I'd like to see considered is OF David Dellucci, who showed a little less power but a better OBP last season, compared to Batista. Figure maybe $2.5M for one of those two (I hope). Clement has reportedly been offered $6M/year by Cleveland, but I really like him as a good fit for the Jays rotation, so let's hope we could get him for $7M. That leaves the bullpen. I would really like to add a proven reliever, preferably a lefty, so figure $2M for Kline. Then, I've got:

Durazo (trade) - $2.5 M
Batista/Dellucci - $2.5M
Clement - $7M
Kline - $2M

Sounds pretty good to me.

Quick question for y'all and this may play into your thinking. Would Magglio play first and how much we he be expected to sign for? If he'd play 1st and DH a little, it could keep him healthy, and healthy enough to start putting up big numbers again

I highly doubt you would get Maggs to play first base. He's a pretty decent outfielder when healthy. And even if he took a one-year contract to build up his marketability, he would likely be looking for $8-$11 million based on what Garciaparra and Glaus received.

http://twins.kfan.com/sports/twins/story.aspx?content_id=80ED4633-6995-4098-B85F-18B8641AAE65
It seems that it may have been the Blue Jays who offered the 3 year/$16 million to Koskie.
COMN

You have to figure that JP has a Hinske deal lined up. Otherwise, that just doesn't make any sense, unless the plan is to move Hinske over to first. I hope that's not the plan.

I don't think people give enough credence to signability issues when examining the Jays. Simply put most American born players would rather sign with a competetive, warm climate based, U.S. team than to sign with the Jays. I don't think its fair, but its reality.

Given that presumption, pursuing Koskie makes some sense. He has huge platoon splits ( .711 vs lh,.893 vs rh over the past 3 years)so you'd have to live with that, but for that money ( and the fact he might actually come here) there's not many better A.L. third basemen out there.

The Winnipeg Sun link was great, Koskie sure seems to like Minny, if Gleeman is reading what's the deal there? At the end of the day however, I'm afraid Koskie may wind up in Seattle given his wife's connections to the area.

I'd also add that a move of Hinske to first base is not a given, I think he has enough foot speed(especially with the new turf) and arm strength(barely)to play in the OF, especially if Rios is moved.

Pavano, Clement, Koskie...

I don't think people give enough credence to signability issues when examining the Jays. Simply put most American born players would rather sign with a competetive, warm climate based, U.S. team than to sign with the Jays. I don't think its fair, but its reality.

What evidence is there of that? People say that all the time, but I'm not convinced. I can see the competitive part being true, but I haven't seen much evidence of players not signing here because it's Canada. The Raptors don't seem to struggle with this either.

First base could really take a load off of hinskes's mind. He wouldn't have to worry about his weak arm and throwing errors. Maybe that will get erics mind back on hitting .280

What evidence is there of that? People say that all the time, but I'm not convinced. I can see the competitive part being true, but I haven't seen much evidence of players not signing here because it's Canada. The Raptors don't seem to struggle with this either.

Are you kidding? Didn't the Raps have to overpay everyone they needed to get Carter to sign? I remember Davis complaining about how his kids were learning the Canadian anthem in school.

Pavano, Clement, Koskie...

You mean all of them? Impossible on the Jays' budget.

The Raptors don't seem to struggle with this either.

Well, except for AD not wanting his kids to learn the metric system and O Canada, and Oakley not wanting to go through customs... ;-)

Koskie - 4/5/6
Jim Mecir - I have no idea what he'd command... start the bidding at 750k, perhaps? (I think I can recall reading that he is coming back for one more year, won't be with the A's, and he had a 1.80 ERA in his last 55 appearances...)
Steve Kline - 2/3.5
Clement - 6/7/8

That's about 13 million right there. I've heard Calvin Pickering mentioned, is he a FA? 1 million to play 1B/DH sounds good.

Oh, and put Batista back in the rotation, name Speier the closer (but use Kline and Mecir in Ace-reliever type situations ~ let Speier have his 3 out, 3 run lead saves and please both the media and the people who know what they are talking about) and move Hinske (and some shiny prospects ~ 2 of Rosario, Chacin, and Gross say) for Austin Kearns. Doc, Lilly, Clement, Bush, Batista sounds excellent. I think Clement and Kline's deals are both very tradable in July of 06 if the need arises.

Kearns - Wells - Rios across the outfield, with Cat DH'ing. Sparky becomes super-sub in the OF. Pickering can get some time at 1B and DH, as can Cat (as awful as that is, it seems like our best bet at this point; given the moves I propose anyway). If the Pickering thing doesn't happen, perhaps Kearns could play some 1B, or Myers, or Gross if he isn't in the Kearns trade. Between Kearns, Myers, Cat, and Gross someone would be there every day. Koskie-Adams-O-Dog constitute the rest of the infield of course, and Zaun gets the majority of time at catcher with a little help from Cash at the start of the year, Quiroz late in the year, and Myers if need be (who is mostly a PH, DH, and extra coach).

I, clearly, threw that together off of the top of my head but other than the uncertainty at 1B it looks good to me.

Paul its patently self evident....name a quality, premium American born free agent who's signed with the Jays in recent while? ( and no Adams ,Lightenburg, Cory Liddle are not my definition of premium).

Actually Lidle was traded to Toronto, and is a good example of my theory, as soon as he was a free agent he ran kicking and screaming back to America because of the horrid SARS CRISIS.

Listen ,when I make this arguement a lot of people get defensive, personally if I had a lot of coin, Toronto would be a great place to live, but the reality is most American players see Hogtown as a cold foriegn burg.

name a quality, premium American born free agent

Name a quality American born FA that they've gone after considering the budget restrictions. The last one I remember was Clemens and they signed him.

name a quality, premium American born free agent who's signed with the Jays in recent while?

Catalanotto?

I think it was Lidle's wife who went kicking and screaming. Lidle was kicked by the Jays out of TO.

Matt, thats almost ten years ago,( I said recent), Clements didn't exactly leave a happy camper, lured here on the false premise that the team would still be competetive in the post Labatts period.

Well then name a quality FA they've gone after and failed to get. I just mentioned Clemens because that's the last one I remember them going after.

I, clearly, threw that together off of the top of my head but other than the uncertainty at 1B it looks good to me.

Sounds pretty good to me too Donkit, with the exception that I don't think relegating Myers to a PH/part-time DH role makes sense. Remeber, Myers had a career year in his last healthy season, and frankly the Jays' other options to team with Zaun at C are underwhelming to say the least. I agree that Zaun should do the bulk of the catching, but if healthy I think Myers should still be a nearly-everyday player at C and DH. Quiroz IMO still needs a little more seasoning before he's ready to stay with the ML club, and Cash has proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is not currently a ML-level player, and I'm not confident that's going to change. Honestly, given the Jays' offensive problems last year and the loss of Carlos, they can't really afford to have an absolutely dead-weight bat like Cash in the lineup at all.

Miguel Batista...

Darrin Fletcher.

Cattlatano was a good signing, but he was coming off a serious injury. Matt your obviously not married, women do have a certain influence on their spouses ( I say as my wife glares at me for spending too much time on this damn computer).

Oh my wife has more than enough influence on me!

Batista is not an American. Fletcher seemed to like Canada after playing for the Expos. Actually the Expos policy of pursuing Latin players, would be something the Jays I think should consider.

First base could really take a load off of hinskes's mind. He wouldn't have to worry about his weak arm and throwing errors. Maybe that will get erics mind back on hitting .280.

To be perfectly honest, injuries aside, I think Hinske's diminished production these last few years has something to do with steroids.

Koskie - 4/5/6
Jim Mecir - I have no idea what he'd command... start the bidding at 750k, perhaps? (I think I can recall reading that he is coming back for one more year, won't be with the A's, and he had a 1.80 ERA in his last 55 appearances...)
Steve Kline - 2/3.5
Clement - 6/7/8.

I'm not all that big a fan of these backloaded contracts. Down the road, it'll come back to bite the Jays in the ass.

...And just a side question...I'd love to have Durazo come to Toronto, but I'm curious as to where the rumour of his mere availability is coming from? He had a damn good season last year, and even after arbitration, won't make that much. Why would the A's be willing to trade him? And if they are, I would think that it would take a top notch prospect (a la Rios) to get him...

The first sentence above should be italizized...sorry.

Oh I had been skimming and missed your point. So you are saying that American born players don't want to go to Canada...? I don't buy that. :)

I think that all things being equal, an American would be inclined to stay in his own country. However, things aren't close to equal. The Jays have been cutting salary for years (which isn't attractive to anyone except the owner), they have low attendance, cement grass, and they haven't been competitive in a long time. I think those are the more important factors.

Granted, the team has not spent a lot of time pursuing top end free agents lately due to budget constraints. What I'm saying is, people like to be warm all year round, live near family and friends, be in a successfull ,routine environment, I hardly think this is such a radical concept.

Honestly the only time I've heard of Canada being an issue with a FA was I think Storm Davis circa 1990. His wife had voiced concerns about Canadian schools so he signed with KC. One of the best signings that the Jays never made since Davis basically stunk in KC.

Well, except for AD not wanting his kids to learn the metric system and O Canada, and Oakley not wanting to go through customs... ;-)

Yeah, but they both signed and played in Canada, right?

And no, I wasn't joking. People say this all the time based on zero evidence. The Raptors got Davis and Carter and JYD and Alston and Williams to sign. The Jays have Cat, Batista, and I can't think of a single player the Jays have pursued in recent years that hasn't come here because it's Canada.

The reason that player's don't want to come to the Jays is because they're not very good and they can't pay very much money. Period.

And trust me, this isn't some sort of Toronto self defence mechanism.

I'm with MatO. Can you name a free agent that the Raptors or Blue Jays have gone after that haven't signed here because it's Canada?

Yeah, but they both signed and played in Canada, right?

Sure, by spending a lot more for them than teams were willing to pay. I suppose in one way this is always how free agency works, but I have no doubt that there's a certain premium that has to be paid to get one of these guys.

I'll actually add another practical arguement to my stance. Taxes. Americans at the level of taxation that ball players receive , are taxed considerably lower than their Canadian counterparts. So you can't make Toronto your year round residence, this has implications if you have school aged children, and want to live year round in one home.

I think the issue of signing free agents is much less so of an issue in baseball then basketball simply because of the warm weather (relatively speeaking hehe) here in the summer. A lot of basketball players like to have fun at night and just don't want to deal with the snow. That being said, I think it can be a *little* harder to attract American born players. I'm a bigger fan of the Jays strategy in the 80s and 90s, where they seemed to intentionally target Latin players in development, and to some extent, in free agency too.

I hear ya, Wildrose. In the scheme of things, if an American-born free agent was given a choice between Toronto and some other American city, I think that player would look at it the same way as he would look at any other choice of cities with a slight preference to staying in the States. Maybe I'm naive about this, but I think it's different when you are talking about Montreal.

I think the Jays lack of signing free agents is more because of budgetary issues, playing surface, lack of fans, and lack of a competitive club. The Jays probably would need to pay a small premium to sign free agents with 50/50 decisions to make up the difference, but the Jays haven't really been offering enough to lead to this scenario. The only situation like this that might have come up that I can remember is Tim Worrell signing with the Phils, but I don't know enough about it to know his rationale.

Sure, by spending a lot more for them than teams were willing to pay. I suppose in one way this is always how free agency works, but I have no doubt that there's a certain premium that has to be paid to get one of these guys.

I think that's exactly how free agency works, for every team. If ten teams are interested in a player, nine can value him correctly but it only takes one to overvalue and then you get "Dustin Hermanson 2years/ 5.5 million".

Seriously though, all players signed though free agency are signed at 'max worth' not 'average'. This is why every contract looks bloated.

I suppose in one way this is always how free agency works, but I have no doubt that there's a certain premium that has to be paid to get one of these guys.

There certainly aren't any major leaguers who are taking hometown discounts to play for the Jays, I grant you that. But similarly, there aren't many players lining up to go to Pittsburgh, Detroit, Milwaukee, Kansas City or other less attractive cities unless (a) the player or his wife happens to hail from that area, or (b) the teams waves an obscene amount of cash in their direction. Who wouldn't rather play in front of their friends and family, given the choice? Unfortunately for the Jays, you can't compete with Nigel Wilson and the Butler brothers. Taxes used to be a concern, but the players (or at least their agents) have been straightened out on that topic. The weather is not a very good excuse, since the baseball is played indoors whenever the weather is inclement, and the players are only up here for the summer time anyway. Woodward was the only Jay to live here year round, and that was only because his wife is from Aurora. Simply put, I don't think it's a border issue (Montreal, because of the perceived language barrier, may have been another story).

Toronto's problems are no different from those of any other team not located in some glamourous city like New York, Boston, L.A. or Chicago. In fact, I think Toronto has it better than a lot of major league cities simply because it is, frankly, a better city than most of them.

To be perfectly honest, injuries aside, I think Hinske's diminished production these last few years has something to do with steroids.

Well, I suppose there's going to be that speculation about any player whose performance has inexplicably declined in the last year or two, and he did always seem like a really bulky guy...

Yeah, but they both signed and played in Canada, right?

Actually, Oakley got traded here. AD re-signed, but it was only because the ever-incompetent Glen Grunwald threw a ridiculous contract his way, and even at that he whined his way out of TO shortly thereafter. He clearly wasn't happy, I think at least partly because of the city/country.

The Raptors got Davis and Carter and JYD and Alston and Williams to sign.

Well, they overpaid AD and Williams. However, JYD certainly seemed to want to be here, as did Carter at the time, as does Alston now. I'm certainly not saying that ALL American athletes don't want to play in Canada, but I think you can't discount the fact that for some of them, there is a built-in bias against playing here that would have to be offset (generally by overpaying the player).

The reason that player's don't want to come to the Jays is because they're not very good and they can't pay very much money. Period.

No question that that's the biggest reason, but I think the country does play a role for some athletes as well.

I'll actually add another practical arguement to my stance. Taxes. Americans at the level of taxation that ball players receive , are taxed considerably lower than their Canadian

This isn't a concern anymore, is it?

Plus, don't you pay the same, if not more, in taxes in New York?

I believe that the major tax differences between countries occurs in the lower brackets. At the top end, they're pretty similar. (Except for a few states that don't have state income taxes).

Anyone know the truth about that?

I don't know the truth about it, but I'd be astonished to hear about a multi-millionaire dollar player not choosing to sign with the Jays because of taxes. I think we're reaching now.

Okay, not to beat this to death, but can you guys think of a player that didn't want to play in Canada because it was Canada other that's more recent than Storm Davis?

The rumours are the Ray Allen would like to play here, and other than that Ihaven't heard anything either way.

Taxation is an issue if you stay in Canada for more than a certain amount of days. A few years ago the Raptors had to have training camp in Buffalo because looking at the schedule ,the players would have been taxed as Canadians due to the amount of time spent here. This is why American players (and the fact there not from here)hardly ever live here year round. Paul Molitor was the exception as he wanted his kids to be nearby and live in the same community year round.

Having read Ball Four, I think there's a perfectly understandable reason why ballplayers don't want their families living with them year round, but it has nothing to do with taxes...

Giambi - minor league deal with bonus clauses (after the Yankees release him)

To tie this in with the lack of big name FAs to sign with Toronto in the last little while, Giambi has said before that he loves the city of Toronto, and he likes playing in SkyDome.

I'm not an accountant, but I believe in George Bush's America the maximum tax rate is 26%( with all sorts of allowable deductions),I'm pretty sure its higher in Canada.

Okay, not to beat this to death, but can you guys think of a player that didn't want to play in Canada because it was Canada other that's more recent than Storm Davis?

Well, for one thing, the Jays haven't been very good consistently for some time, and the Raptors haven't been very good the last couple of years, so it hasn't really come up since there have been lots of other reasons for players not to want to come here, if you know what I mean. For another thing, how many guys are going to come out and say they didn't sign with the Raps/Jays becuase they don't want to go to Canada? Look, NO ONE is saying that it's impossible to get good American-born athletes to play here. The point is just that it probably IS a factor, to a greater or lesser extent, when many players decide where to sign. Let me put it this way: consider an average American-born FA, who has received two offers which are identical in money and in other terms. One is from the Jays, the other is from a US team which has a similar chance as the Jays of being a competitive team in the foreseeable future. Which offer do you think the player is going to lean towards?

On the topic of free agents signing with Toronto (or not wanting to), I remember several years back when Manny Ramirez was a free-agent, Toronto was one of his five preferred destinations. In the end, it just comes down to $$$

One is from the Jays, the other is from a US team which has a similar chance as the Jays of being a competitive team in the foreseeable future. Which offer do you think the player is going to lean towards?

Who knows? If he likes to surf and eat fish tacos, maybe he'll pick San Diego.

If he likes to salsa, maybe he'll pick the Marlins.

If he likes country music, maybe he'll pick the Rangers.

If he likes people with a giant inferiority complex, maybe he'll pick the Jays.

You can't reduce a complex, life-altering decision to a simple either/or scenario, riddled with nativist assumptions.

Florida and Texas have no state income tax, but that doesn't stop players from signing in high tax states like New York or California where taxes at the top bracket are no better than Ontario. City income taxes are also quite common in the US. There are cities in the US where visiting players pay income taxes on the money they earned while playing in that city.

Lee, I guess that I just think that if we don't have any evidence that players don't want to be here we can't say that it's a factor. Is Toronto a preferred destination? No. But is it any harder for Toronto to attract free agents than Minnesota, Milwaukee, Kansas City, Utah(NBA), Memphis(NBA), Detroit, Cincinatti, etc? I think I'm going to side with the no camp.

If we're going to speculate that American players don't want to sign here because it's not an American city, is it any less reasonable to say that the Jays should have an advantage on non-American born players who might not be comfortable with the States? I haven't seen any evidence of that, nor have I seen any evidence that Americans don't want to play here.

Who knows? If he likes to surf and eat fish tacos, maybe he'll pick San Diego.

If he likes to salsa, maybe he'll pick the Marlins.

If he likes country music, maybe he'll pick the Rangers.

If he likes people with a giant inferiority complex, maybe he'll pick the Jays.

You can't reduce a complex, life-altering decision to a simple either/or scenario, riddled with nativist assumptions.

If that's how you see it, OK. Maybe most players DO look at it that way, I really don't know. BUT, if it were me, I would without a second thought take an equivalent job offer in Canada (or even a rather substantially inferior offer) over one which would require living in the US, simply because I would rather live in this country. I am sure there are a lot of American athletes who feel this way as well (i.e. all else being equal would much rather stay in the US).

I am an accountant and the last time I looked (a couple of years ago) the top marginal federal tax bracket in the US was 39.6% at about $250,000 and up. State tax in California was about 9%. Also Medicare was 1.45% for every dollar you make. There are more deductions though.

I'm not an accountant, but I believe in George Bush's America the maximum tax rate is 26%( with all sorts of allowable deductions),I'm pretty sure its higher in Canada.

That's the typical rate for the US middle class. It goes up to the mid 30s at the top.

Pistol, if I'm not mistaken, a huge recent US election issue was Bush's treatment of taxing the rich, if its in the high 30's it'll be coming down pretty soon.

BUT, if it were me, I would without a second thought take an equivalent job offer in Canada (or even a rather substantially inferior offer) over one which would require living in the US, simply because I would rather live in this country.

Apples and oranges. I don't know what you do for a living, Lee, but I'm going to guess that like most people, the work you do requires you to live in proximity to your workplace for the duration of the year. As a consequence, you rather astutely seek work in a location that suits you best.

But a ballplayer is not so limited. He can live wherever he likes in the offseason, independent of where he works.

Like you, I prefer Canada to the United States, although from the tenor of your comments yesterday I suspect for widely different reasons. But if I had to choose, there are several cities in the United States that I would prefer to certain Canadian ones - like San Diego over Winnipeg. For the same reason, it is not inconceivable that an uber-patriotic American would prefer to spend his summers in Toronto than Milwaukee, knowing full well that he doesn't have to spend his winters here.

Lee, I guess that I just think that if we don't have any evidence that players don't want to be here we can't say that it's a factor.

Well, I think that you can't really ralk about "players" as some homogeneous group anyways, the decision of where to live is a personal one, and is largely similar whether one is a professional athlete or not. My point is just this: I know that the country in which I would have to work would be a significant factor for me in choosing between job offers (I have actually had to make this choice previously), and while I am sure some people WOULD be indifferent between the US and Canada, I assume that many others (me for instance) would not be. Really, all I'm saying is that a lot of people in general would probably prefer to live and work in their country of origin (America in this case), all else being equal, and there is no reason to suspect that professional athletes would be any different. Now, since there are far more US-born baseball players than Canadian-born ones, this most likely is, to SOME degree, an issue in terms of FA interest in the Jays. That's all.

For the same reason, it is not inconceivable that an uber-patriotic American would prefer to spend his summers in Toronto than Milwaukee, knowing full well that he doesn't have to spend his winters here.

Well, I suppose that depends on how much importance the individual places upon his preference for one country over the other, versus the other merits of each city. Look I am not saying that it is a deciding or overriding factor to all players, I'm just saying that it's a consideration.

Hey all. I'm a big lurker and rarely post but wanted to provide some further insight you all might find interesting about Clement. I contacted a friend of mine in Chicago who played minor league ball and is a huge Cubs fan. Anyhow, here's his take on Clement if we get him.

"...As for Clement, he's solid, sometimes has runs of
spectacular but in my opinion, he's gets too worried
about things instead of pitching. There are times
where he'll go three or four starts in a row in which
his slider is unhittable, not unlike Lieber. Then
he'll lose the arm slot and throw nothing but tokens
that get raked. He's usually healthy so he'll eat up
innings. I think the Cubs would have welcomed him
back had he not been in line for a raise. As for what
he's worth, because all of the money in the game is
monopoly money, and without a salary cap I quite
honestly don't even pay attention to what anyone makes
in comparison with someone else. I know that Nomar
got $8 million for next year so if you ask me if I'd
rather have Nomar at $8 million or Clement at $7
million, I'd have to answer that I'd rather have Nomar
a thousand times over. His slider usually gets him
ground balls and even if it's not, he's not generally
a fly ball pitcher. He didn't give up an inordinate
amount of HR's at Wrigley even on the days the wind
blows out. I would consider him a good addition
although more of a complimentary type guy in the 3-4
range than anything else. Never makes any noise in the
clubhouse and is a good community guy if that makes
any difference. Plus, if you get him, you'd get to
wear those little chin whisker beards that they were
wearing in Wrigley every time he pitches."

I would've chanced arbitration with Delgado, and then seen if I had $14 million left over for free agents.

I guess I'm still having a hard time accepting it; grabbing Koskie/Clement for 3 years/$36 million (as commonly suggested here) and moving Hinske to first (make me smile/grimace /puke) seems a huge step backwards. I think the Season from Hell was an anomaly; taking Delgado out of the equation just makes things so much more difficult in the future. Have we forgotten the hope of 2003? Hudson's better, Lilly's better, shortstop might be more settled, Bush seems very plausible, better bullpen management (I hope), a little more luck and better health ...none of the $14 million "solutions" so far seem likely to improve the team.

If Delgado accepted it would have been big bucks, yes, but only one year (and the team is better). There was no chance of it devolving into a Raul Mondesi millstone.

I’d try a Phil Nevin (the Padres are interest in trading Nevin or Klesko, but Klesko has a no trade) and Adam Eaton for Miguel Batista, Eric Hinske and Vinny Chulk. That would result in adding roughly $4 million to the 2005 budget, but save a little money in the long term.

I think this is the best plan that has been thrown out...if it's feasible as I'm not sure SD would go for it.

I really don't think that any of the free agents are worth the priices they're getting, especially with our budget. I'd like us to take on a larger contract [like Nevin's], because when you do that, young talent can also be required in the package [Eaton].

This idea just popped into my head and it may be pure folly, but how about Todd Helton? The Rockies have shown that they are willing to eat salary to get rid of high priced contracts [see Walker, Larry and Hampton, Mike].

His contract: $12.6 million in '05, $16.6 million from '06-'10 and $19.1 in '11 ---> ave. salary of 16.39mil/year

If the ROX contribute 35 mil towards getting rid of that albatross and we can send Hinske over in that trade, then...

114.7-35=79.7
79.7-12.96=66.74
66.74/7=9.5

In this deal we get Helton at 9.5mil/year...So would [or "could", is probably more relevant]we do this? I think we could also get a good prospect in the trade as well.

This is a excerpt of my original post in the other thread

...

I've been promoting 3 signings, a $7Mil Bat, a $7Mil arm plus Greg Zaun (+-1Mil) to make the $53Mil...

Now I'm thinking that the $14Mil, if spenton 5 Cat-Lilly types and if 4 of them pan out... then we could leave something like Chacin, Gross, Johnson, Bush on the development path...

Thinking more on that..
Do you think $14 would get us (2004 salaries in brackets):
Paul Byrd (7.0Mil), Omar Daal(4.5), Tony Clark(.75) Danny Bautista(4.0), and Chad Fox(1.2)

Maybe
Olerud (7.7), and Darren Oliver(.75)fit better than Byrd and Clark... Or Osuna (.75)

That could be interesting...
play with these guys, let Adams, Rios, Quiroz, League, Chacin develop in AAA and sign the big Free Agent Next year...???

"As a first baseman or a second baseman? The Dodgers could play Kent at second and trade or non-tender Alex Cora, but they might be more likely to use him over Hee Seop Choi at first base. We don't really think that would be an upgrade, but then again, we're sometimes wrong. "

From RotoWorld...

What would it take to get Hee-Seop Choi? He probabaly couldn't get away with playing every day, but there are solid platoon partners for him on the cheap out there. Would it cost any more than 1 million for 1 year for Cordero or Colbrunn? 2 million for 2 if the Jays must (I'd more readily give Colbrunn 2 years than Cordero for obvious reasons...)

Choi's 3 year splits vs. Righties (AB , AVG/OBP/SLG , GPA:
538, .245/.362/.452, .276

Wil Cordero's 3 year splits vs. Lefties:
226, .292/.372/.478, .287

Greg Colbrunn's 3 year splites vs. Lefties:
180, .322/.366/.583, .311

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1942763
Jayson Stark, at ESPN.com [COMN], compiled a list of players that seem to be on the trading block:

Other bats
Doug Mientkiewicz, Kevin Millar, Ron Belliard, Nick Johnson, Mike Cameron, Jose Cruz Jr., Sean Burroughs, Erubiel Durazo, Shea Hillenbrand, A.J. Pierzynski, Scott Podsednik, Jay Gibbons, Julio Lugo, Juan Encarnacion, Toby Hall, Eric Munson, Alex Sanchez, Randy Winn, Scott Spiezio, Marlon Byrd, Jay Payton, Kevin Mench, Josh Phelps, Casey Blake, Dave Roberts.

Other arms
Jarrod Washburn, Shawn Chacon, Jon Garland, Mike Maroth, Steve Trachsel, Jorge Julio, Danys Baez, Damaso Marte, Kyle Farnsworth, Arthur Rhodes, Tanyon Sturtze, Chris Reitsma, Jim Brower, Mike Koplove, Chris George, Kerry Ligtenberg, Jorge Sosa.

Young guns
Edwin Jackson, Casey Kotchman, Joe Borchard, Adrian Gonzalez, Alexis Rios, Ryan Vogelsong, Juan Dominguez.

Only in a whopper
Javier Vazquez, Darin Erstad, Trot Nixon, Mike Sweeney, Kaz Matsui, Jacque Jones, Tom Gordon, Geoff Jenkins, Brian Schneider, Mark Kotsay, Octavio Dotel, Ted Lilly, Aubrey Huff, B.J. Ryan, Ray Durham.

Take my contract, please
Kevin Brown, Chan Ho Park, Mike Piazza, Byung-Hyun Kim, Cliff Floyd, Preston Wilson, Charles Johnson, Brian Anderson, Junior Griffey, Jason Giambi.

Personally, names like N.Johnson, S.Burroughs, E.Durazo, and K.Mench all look like very attractive to me [as well as the "young guns"].

"...would consider him a good additionalthough more of a complimentary type guy in the 3-4 range than anything else.

Your friend obviously missed yesterday's spat about the correct uses of complimentary and complementary. ;)

A lot of people have talked about getting Nick Johnson, or trying to replace Delgado's offence in various ways. I would try something else if I were the Jays. Here is my 3-step solution:

1) Sign Clement - 23 million over 3 years
2) Sign Odalis Perez - 15 million over 3 years
3) Trade for Doug Mientkiewicz (good glove at 1B)

The Jays can improve by scoring more runs and/or allowing less runs. Some pitchers have gone for much more than I thought they were worth, but if we can get these guys signed as I have outlined then I think this is the way to go.

I would give Rios and Gross the corner outfield slots out of spring training.

I like Hudson at 2B, and would keep him for one more year unless given a good offer.

I'd pencil Adams in at SS.

I see no choice but to hope for a healthy Hinske to improve next year. I don't think his salary is completely ridiculous, so I don't mind having him around, especially if he lays off the Krispy Kreme in the offseason. Koskie is injury prone. I'd prefer him, but I'd rather invest in more SP, especially since I don't see any IMMEDIATE help on the way from the minors that impresses me. When the help comes, Lilly will be gone, or Batista can move into the pen.

I'd start Quiroz off in AAA with the hope that he's up within 2 months.

Rotation:

1) Halladay
2) Lilly
3) Clement
4) Perez
5) Batista

I'd bring Chacin along in long relief. I'm not concerned with Towers. If we have enough money to get another quality arm to compete for saves that's fine. If not I'm not concerned. I think League or Perkins could be the answer sooner than we all think, and I have no problem holding another "open competition" for the closer's job in spring training. If Adams wins it, so be it.

All in all, I think this makes for a young and exciting team that would be great to follow. The pitching should be solid, and we can start bringing along young and cheap position players. When they show promise we sign them up long-term.

Names that interest me on that list:

Kevin Millar
Sean Burroughs
Erubiel Durazo
Jorge Julio
Kyle Farnsworth
Chris Reitsma
Kerry Ligtenberg

Obviously, I would like those "young guns" as well, and most of those "whoppers."

In fact, I would be quite happy if the Jays could manage to trade for Durazo and Millar to play 1B/DH. A heart of the order consisting of Durazo/Wells/Millar probably wouldn't strike fear into most team's hearts, but it would be pretty good, and it wouldn't really cost that much.

Well, it wouldn't cost much money-wise, but I suppose it could cost a bit talent-wise. Too bad.

I think okbluejays' plan is really quite intriguing. I'd start Bush and move Batista to the pen, but otherwise that could work...the only problem here is that there is enough pitching rising through the ranks that Perez and Clement would know there would be an excellent chance of them being traded during the lifespan of their contract. That's a disincentive to sign.

What depth the Jays would have in their rotation (so long, Douglass, Glynn, etc.!) if they were to add two solid starters. They could assemble an exciting mix of young arms in the 'pen right now, with all kinds of possibilities for the future.

That rotation could lead the AL in quality starts. A club that pitched and fielded that well would keep the team in a lot of ballgames...and the Jays can always acquire a bopper if the plan is working through mid-season. (Or, for that matter, if the plan isn't working.)

2) Sign Odalis Perez - 15 million over 3 years

Despite the unrealistic aspects of some of these plans (perez is about to sign a 4 year 34 million deal with the dbacks for example)

Our biggest needs are
bullpen help
#2/3 pitcher
1b

While I would love to sign Koskie, unless trading Hinske gets us a decent 1b back.
On the flip side, I really dont like the johnson for rios deal - were giving up a 24 year old kid who still has big upside and projects as a plus defender and good hitter. If he ever learns how to take walks or hit for power (oh yeah - hes a 6'5 stick who will put on muscle) then look out.

If we could sign Matt Clement that would be fantastic - given the market for pitchers though that might be tough to do at under 3/24, which really ties us up though.
So many options

3) Trade for Doug Mientkiewicz (good glove at 1B)
Good idea, but, uhm ... for who that the Red Sox would want exactly? Trading within the division is hard enough when the opposing GM is a dummy, and Epstein ain't that.

I bet he'd want Lilly.

Boy, I'm getting crucified! Hey, you wanted creative!

Yes, Bush should be in the rotation - that was a major oversight. Stick Batista at closer. Even Better.

As for Mientkiewicz, I'm not sure that it would take much to deal for him. I doubt Epstein would look at us acquiring Doug and start shaking in his boots that we're going to steal his wild card. If we can't get him for a decent but not elite prospect then I'd be open to getting another relatively cheap 1B. He's not the key to my scheme. My general point is that our money may be better spent on pitching and defence as opposed to trying to replace Delgado's bat on the cheap. The pitching, as I laid it out, would be very good assuming Halladay comes back strong. And I think our defence would be good even in spite of our youth. Rios looked good in RF last year. Wells is solid in center. Hudson is good at 2B. Sure, the left side of the diamond may be a problem with the glove, but we don't have enough money to have no holes.

Finally, the 5 million per year figure for Perez I got from Rotoworld. I thought is sounded like a really reasonable number so I ran with it. It sounded like a bargain... so if he's going to sign for 8 million a year I can't say I'm too surprised. But the Diamondbacks? I thought they were broke. I have no idea where they are finding all of this money. Maybe they know they can dump Randy's salary for cheap talent (i.e. prospects) in return.

Put me down for the Doug M. at first base trade. It would likely only take a John Hattig type prospect to get him since they have to move either him or Millar anyway. Then focus the rest of the money on pitching (Clement, Kline). The offense is going to be bad, but you might as well see what kind of improvements guys like Quiroz, Adams, Gross, Rios, Hinske make next year before jumping the gun on a possibly bad trade (ie. Rios for Johnson or Craig Wilson).

The Tony Clark option that is being talked about in the press is disgusting. I would rather go with the Cat and find a fourth outfielder (Gross) instead.

I'd try to acquire Choi for a prospect, and get the best starter I could on a 2 year contract max, get Barry Larkin as the utility infielder, and acquire an OF in the Rule 5 draft. My theory is that Choi would come relatively cheaply from LA, as he fell into disfavor quickly.

The ballclub would look like this:

C- 2 of Quiroz, Zaun, Myers
1B-Choi
2B-Hudson
SS-Adams
3B-Hinske
IF-Larkin
OF-Rios
Wells
Gross
Johnson
Rule 5er
DH-Cat/Menenchino

SP-Halladay
Lilly
free agent pitcher
Bush
Batista
RP-Speier
Ligtenberg
Chulk
Chacin
League
Frasor

(there are a couple of other internal relief pitcher options at this time)

If I had a little money left over, I'd troll the relief market for a bargain.

I read that Russ Ortiz is signing for 4 years at 34 million with the Diamondbacks. Anders, did you get Odalis Perez confused with Russ Ortiz? Does anyone know if my 5 million-a-year estimate for Perez is realistic? If so, I'm stickin' to my plan!

1) Sign Clement - 23 million over 3 years
2) Sign Odalis Perez - 15 million over 3 years
3) Trade for Doug Mientkiewicz (good glove at 1B)

The Jays can improve by scoring more runs and/or allowing less runs. Some pitchers have gone for much more than I thought they were worth, but if we can get these guys signed as I have outlined then I think this is the way to go.

Okbluejays, this is a very interesting plan; invest the bulk of the money in putting out the best rotation we reasonably can. The only disagreement I have is with Mientkiewicz; I would much rather trade for someone like Durazo to play 1B since we're going to need at least some offense. Although I believe greatly in the importance of defense, to me the difference between a gold glover and a mediocre fielder is relatively minor at 1B; it's not a premium defensive position for a good reason.

COMN for some Blue Jays news...

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playernews.asp?sport=MLB
No. Click on my name. Yours is broken. :)

The Blue Jays might have talked with the Pirates about a trade for Craig Wilson.
Wilson isn't going to remain in Pittsburgh for the long-term, but a deal is much more likely to take place in July or next winter. Perhaps that would change if the Blue Jays were willing to give up Alexis Rios, but we can't imagine they'd do that for Wilson unless Kip Wells were also involved.

Well now, THAT's interesting. I'm pretty high on Rios, but if Kip Wells [or O.Perez *crosses fingers*]is in the trade with Wilson, this seems like a pretty good trade. For what it's worth, probably not very much, I'd go for Perez and Wells and offer anyone in the organization with the exception of Wells, Doc, Lilly, and Bush.

I'd move Lilly if that was the stickler for an Oliver Perez deal...possibly Bush too...

I'd move Lilly if that was the stickler for an Oliver Perez deal...possibly Bush too...

Yeah, I probably would too, but I am just really enamoured with a rotation of:

Doc
Perez
Lilly
Bush
Batista/Towers/Chacin

I also realize that this is a pipe dream and will not happen.

On a side note, the pitcher I would most like to acquire would Rich Harden, but see no way this could happen short of trading Vernon Wells and even then...oh well, it's fun to dream

Nolan, Yes, Oliver Perez is a pipe dream... he'd be undealable for even our best prospects/cheap talent. However, Odalis Perez is gettable. If Clement goes elsewhere for, say, 9 million a year (i.e. more than the jays would spend) I could see us going to 6 or 6.5 a year for Perez and then we do have a "Perez" in the rotation, albeit the worse one!

I don't mind Wilson for us, or Durazo at 1B, but my general point is that our dollars may be better spent on SP and defence as opposed to offence.

- Trade Batista and prospect for Carlos Lee
- Sign Koskie 3/15
- Sign Clement 3/21
- Package a prospect with Loser-Lighty for a marginal prospect and then use some of that dough to sign Steve Kline

SP:
Doc
Lilly
Clement
Bush
Tower

C: Zaun, Myers
1B: Hinske, Crozier
2B: Hudson, Menacheno
SS: Adams, McDonald
3B: Koskie
LF: Lee, Johnson
CF: Wells
RF: Rios
DH: Cat

Bullpen:
Kline
Spier
Frasor
League
Chulk
Miller

And of course it's late so if those moves seem ludacris I'll blame it on the time and the stress that comes with final exams.

Alright Koskie is a done deal, so whats left. Here are some viable options as I see it.

1) With Pedro signing with the mets, the value of Clement is most likely out of reach for the Jays, Therefore, I propose while everyone is trying to land Clement the jays should swoop in and sign either Odalis Perez or Millwood.

2) to adress the need for another affordable bat I propose J.P. takes a look at one of the following in this order: Brad Fullmer, Ellis Burks, Ruben Sierra, or ...and this may be a long shot but, Juan Gonzalez or jeremy Burnitz.

3) to fill the need in the bullpen there are a few that should be considered. First of all at the high end there is Kline and Hammond as solid lefties but you have to assume there asking price may be too high. One option that I like is Williamson out of Boston as a cheap solution to the closer problem. Other good options are Koch, Chad Fox, Mendoza, Shuey, all of which would be good options considering there potential price tags, and Jose Jimenez who is now a minor league free agent is a must at the price.

4) bring back Tony Fernandez!!!!