Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
I've spent too many years
In a war with myself
The doctor has told me
It's no good for my health
To search for perfection
Is all very well
But to look for heaven
Is to live here in hell


Spencer Fordin

“Carlos Delgado became an ex-Blue Jay at the stroke of midnight on Wednesday, when the only team he's ever known declined to offer him arbitration, according to The Associated Press. By waiving that right, Toronto slammed the door. The Jays can't negotiate with him until May 1, long after he will have signed with another team.

“In truth, the budget made this decision long ago. Delgado's contract represented nearly 40 percent of the payroll last season, and Toronto would've been forced to make an offer of at least 80 percent of that salary in arbitration. The slugger could have declined and gained a longer window to negotiate, but with the downturn in the open market since his last contract, he likely would've accepted the one-year deal.

“If he had, that would have fiscally hamstrung the team from improving in other areas. It could've meant a $15 million player on a $53 million team. “


Richard Griffin

“The Jays are believed to have dangled a three-year, $21 million offer to their superstar, who made $18.5 million last season, while insisting publicly that they would like him back. That, of course, places the public onus on Delgado. When he left, the team could say they tried.

“It's all PR spin. Basically, the team offered a loyal employee a 62 per cent pay cut for slamming 32 homers and driving in 99 runs and being the public face of the organization in trying times.” ....

“After the break, he refused to waive his no-trade clause, with Ricciardi revealing that Delgado stayed because he wanted to spend the rest of the season in Toronto. How dare he?

“Usually sports fans perceive such a stay-put sentiment as a good thing, but the Jays turned it into the selfish act of a soft player who didn't want to win a title, preventing his team from getting any kind of compensation. Huh!”


SportsNet.ca

I'm not happy about this and neither is Carlos," David Sloane told Sportsnet's Marty York in a telephone interview. "This is a significant loss for the Blue Jays, believe me. He was the greatest player in the team's history -- not only because of what he could do on the field but also because of his widespread appeal. We'll have to move on now and make the best of it. There are other teams interested in Carlos, for sure, but his preference would have been to stay in Toronto.

"As far as I'm concerned, the Blue Jays butchered this up. They've been butchering it up with Carlos for a long, long time. I don't think (general manager) J.P. Ricciardi has ever wanted Carlos around, from the day he stepped off the plane to take over in Toronto."

Sloane would not elaborate, other than to say he and Delgado were livid in the summer when Sportsnet divulged that the Jays were going to ask Delgado to waive his no-trade clause.

"That wasn't right, and it was disgraceful that someone in the organization, whether it was J.P. or not, leaked that information to you," Sloane said.


Mike Rutsey

“Simply put, the Jays did not have the money to bring Delgado, who earned $18.5 million US last year in the final year of a four-year, $68-million contract extension, back.

“Actually, they have the money, they just don't want to spend it.

“With owner Ted Rogers holding the Jays payroll at $52 million for the 2005 season, general manager J.P. Ricciardi did not have enough funds available to re-sign Delgado and address the club's other needs such as a starting pitcher, a left-handed reliever and a designated hitter. Ricciardi now can add a first baseman to that list.”

Also from Rutsey:

"You get to a situation where it's just not the money," Delgado said at the end of the season, in which the Jays finished last with a 67-94 record. "I've played the game for 10 years and I want to have the opportunity to win. I want to have the opportunity to contend and not finish last."

Remind me of this if Delgado signs with the Mariners.
Jays Roundup Special: December 8 | 195 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Blue in SK - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 10:18 AM EST (#10519) #
First Big Dady Vladdy, and now King Carlos. This sucks.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 10:20 AM EST (#10520) #
“After the break, he refused to waive his no-trade clause, with Ricciardi revealing that Delgado stayed because he wanted to spend the rest of the season in Toronto. How dare he?

“Usually sports fans perceive such a stay-put sentiment as a good thing, but the Jays turned it into the selfish act of a soft player who didn't want to win a title, preventing his team from getting any kind of compensation. Huh!”


Who on the Jays said this? I'd have been calling for their head if I had heard it. I do recall hearing a lot of members of the media saying this, but as I understand it they do not count as "The Jays".
_Tyler - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 10:26 AM EST (#10521) #
If SF wanders by, good story, but compliment and complement are different words. This drives me insane, and it's so common in the media now. None of the national papers appear to know the difference either.
_Jim Acker - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 10:27 AM EST (#10522) #
“Usually sports fans perceive such a stay-put sentiment as a good thing, but the Jays turned it into the selfish act of a soft player who didn't want to win a title, preventing his team from getting any kind of compensation. Huh!”

This is such crap. Weren't Expos fans pissed when El Presidente did the same thing? What about McGriff when was going to do this with the DRAys two yrs ago? Ditto for Palmeiro, Randy Johnson.
Mike Green - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 10:29 AM EST (#10523) #
Actually, Blue in SK, it doesn't suck, but it stings that after today, we must consider him gone.

Now, there is an interesting choice whether to spend most of the money left on a bat and an arm or two bats.
_Jordan - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 10:37 AM EST (#10524) #
Eighteen point five million points to Mike Green, who correctly identify Sting's Consider Me Gone as today's post-Carlos lyric. He also wins this handsome photo of ex-King Carlos, courtesy of our very own Named For Hank:

_SF - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 10:59 AM EST (#10525) #
Thanks for the English 101 lesson. I'm well aware they're two different words -- sometimes the brain doesn't send that message to the fingers. And sometimes, even rarer than that, the copydesk doesn't catch it. When the story goes live at 140 something AM, I'm just happy I spelled my name right and made something approaching a coherent statement.
Joe - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:04 AM EST (#10526) #
http://me.woot.net
Ah, Jobu can tell you something about learning to spell your name correctly.

Just how did you do on that test, Jobu?
_Pumped 4/05 - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:17 AM EST (#10527) #
Glad to see this situation finally over and done with.

But, if J.P.'s master plan to replace Delgado is to sign Koskie and shift Hinske to first, I cannot describe how dissapointed and frustrated I would be. I think that would be enough to make me lose all faith in J.P., and possibly give up on next season before it even begins.

I think the best case scenario for first base next year now becomes aquiring Durazo.
_Pumped 4/05 - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:19 AM EST (#10528) #
P.S.,

Anyone read the Jeff Blair article in the Globe this morning? Anything worth mentioning in there?
Named For Hank - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:19 AM EST (#10529) #
But, if J.P.'s master plan to replace Delgado is to sign Koskie and shift Hinske to first, I cannot describe how dissapointed and frustrated I would be.

Has anyone ever announced this as the master plan?
_Moffatt - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:20 AM EST (#10530) #
I think Named For Hank has a better chance of being the starting 1B next year.
_Pumped 4/05 - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:26 AM EST (#10531) #
No, but according to Elliot, if they aquire Koskie, that's where Hinske will move. I'm not stating this as fact or anything, but unfortunately, I can see it as fairly plausible.

We all know that the Jays have interest in Koskie, so where does that leave Hinske? J.P. has stated that so far he has hit a stone wall in terms of trade talks. And, lets face it, I seriously doubt that there is much interest out there in taking over Hinske's contract. Are there even that many teams that have the need for a third basesman? I think there best shot may been with Cinci, but now it appears that they will try Kearns there next year.

This off-season is starting to get depressing. I really hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see it getting much better.
_Pumped 4/05 - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:29 AM EST (#10532) #
Moffat, I hope you're right!

Now that Delgado is gone, it might be fun to start to speculate who will in fact be there next year.

Maybe that will snap me outta this.

Any predictions?, Anyone?, please....!
Named For Hank - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:38 AM EST (#10533) #
And I have a history of injury problems.
_Four Seamer - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:38 AM EST (#10534) #
"You get to a situation where it's just not the money," Delgado said at the end of the season, in which the Jays finished last with a 67-94 record. "I've played the game for 10 years and I want to have the opportunity to win. I want to have the opportunity to contend and not finish last."

I'm going to chalk this up to frustration, because this "I just want to win" attitude does not seem to correspond with his (a) refusal to waive the no-trade in order to be dealt to a contender; (b) refusal to entertain a below-market offer from the Jays so that they could build a contending team around him; and (c) his irritation at not winning personal awards (see the 2003 MVP vote). I know his opposition to the liberation of Iraq and missile testing in Vieques makes him something of a secular saint around here, and his bat will be missed, but his indifferent defence and poor baserunning will not, and at least JP finally has a free hand to remould the roster.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:38 AM EST (#10535) #
And I have a history of injury problems.

And the range of Scott Baio.
_Christopher - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:38 AM EST (#10536) #
It's weird having to try and speculate who will play first base for the Jays. From Upshaw > McGriff > Olerud > Delgado, it's been a pretty seemless transition since what, about 1982?
_Christopher - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:42 AM EST (#10537) #
I mean seamless.
_Wildrose - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:42 AM EST (#10538) #
Sad day for the team.

I have two questions, and I'm not sure we'll ever have the answers.

1.Did Delgado ever intend on returning? My sense from the beginning of this long saga was that Delgado had made up his mind to try a greener pasture. Certainly that has been what Riccardi told his Boston media cronies. Someday I'd like to know the real answer and what was the rationale behind leaving/staying actually was.

2.Why no official team announcement? Fordin quotes A.P., Rutsey quotes a Blue Jay source, York quotes Sloan. You'd think an official announcement( from either Godfrey/Riccardi ) about the rationale behind the decision is in order. This tells me that a battle royal down to the wire occured last night ,(between the Rogers bean counters and the team?) and nobody is willing to take ownership of this decision. At any rate, we the fans deserve an official explanation for this crucial move.
_Boos - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:43 AM EST (#10539) #
Delgado's owning of most BJ records is misleading. It's more a statemtent of the lack of talented powerhitters in their system than of the big man's ability.

Sure, he earned everyone last on of his statistics, but really, his agent claiming that Carlos is the be all, end all for the Jays is amusing.

Best of luck to Delgado, but he was rarely clutch in any type of meaningful situation on a team that, well, didn't have anyone to overshadow his accomplishments. Carlos will undoubtedly put up #s, but a year from now, his true talent (or lack thereof) will be glaring obvious.

BTW, I agree with the sentiment shared by most. J.P., you're up.
_dp - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:44 AM EST (#10540) #
How does Hattig fit in their long-term plans? Not at all? Good power, good BB. With Hattig/Hill/Hudson/Adams/Hinske, it seems like the last thing they need is another non-1B infielder. Playing Hinske there for a year seems like a huge mistake, especially with a rookie SS.

If the Mariners sign both Sexson and Delgado, I'm guessing Jacobsen becomes available, but I have no idea if he can handle 1B, or if he can hit the way he did last year. Seems like there's a real shortage of superior talent at 1B- Giambi implodes, Ortiz is a full-time DH, Mike Piazza couldn't handle the shift, Olerud is pretty much completely done, Bagwell is aging, ect.
_dp - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:47 AM EST (#10541) #
the liberation of Iraq

When did this happen? Did I sleep through something?
_Christopher - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:48 AM EST (#10542) #
And the range of Scott Baio.

Baio really didn't find his niche until he started directing, although I'm surpised that having gems like Kirk on his resume hasn't opened more doors for him.
_Paul D - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:49 AM EST (#10543) #
Is Calvin Pickering worth it as a one year DH/pinch hitter? I'd love to see him get a shot, and one year isn't much of a risk, while the Jays try to figure out what they're going to do for power after that.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:50 AM EST (#10544) #
And the range of Scott Baio.

Ow! But at least I can sing.
_Tyler - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:56 AM EST (#10545) #
Sorry SF, tone doesn't come across on the internet obviously. It certainly wasn't intended as a condescending comment. It's an epidemic right now in Canadian newspapers. In the past six months I've seen compliment/complement, "sewed the seeds of dissent", confusion between flout/flaunt...the list is endless.

As for the snarky response goes...am I wrong to apply the same standards to you that I apply to the other major media? These types of error are so prevalent today that the only rational conclusion to draw is that media members are either unaware of the difference, don't care or don't do a good job of proofing their material.
Mike Green - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:57 AM EST (#10546) #
I mean seamless

Four Seamer hopefully won't take that as an insult.

My view of the situation really didn't change over the year. I'd have suggested 3 X $11 and offering arbitration for reasons given by Moffatt and Chuck, but I understand why this offer may not have been made. The reasons are summarized by Spencer Fordin nicely in the header.

Now, what do people think about Barry Larkin, as a possible utility infielder, assuming that he is willing to assume a Berg/Gomez type salary for this role? The Reds declined to offer arbitration to him, so no draft picks would change hands.
_SF - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:00 PM EST (#10547) #
No, but you're wrong to assume a typo indicates lack of knowledge of some kind. If you see me make the same error multiple times, hammer me (or any other writer, for that matter). It would be nice to get some kind of benefit of the doubt though -- spelling mistakes happen to everyone, from professional writers on down to cavemen.
_Jobu - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:21 PM EST (#10548) #
Ah, Jobu can tell you something about learning to spell your name correctly.

Just how did you do on that test, Jobu?


Well, I got a FANTASTIC mark of 60 on that test. Yup, put it right up on the fridge. Make way for the Hillbilly Zombie.

Did anyone hear Carlos on the fan this morning? I missed it.
_SF - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:23 PM EST (#10549) #
Wildrose -- we all quoted other sources because that's who was available when it was timely. JP has a group conference call at 2 pm today to discuss.
_Tyler - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:27 PM EST (#10550) #
I have to admit, I'm a bit puzzled as to why JP wouldn't talk about this last night. It's not just what you do, but how you sell it. By not dealing with this last night, there was a free day for the papers to take potshots at the Jays. Given the attitude of some of the media towards the Jays, if I was him, I'd have at least wanted to put my spin out there, and have people reading that this morning.

For example, "Yeah Carlos left, but at least we didn't sign Tony Womack. Or Jaret Wright." See how easy that would have been?
_Scott - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:28 PM EST (#10551) #
Re: Blair article in the Globe.

Nothing really new in the article. It said the Jays were after Clement and Koskie. He quoted Clement's agent and said that it wasn't a big deal he had not visited Toronto like he did Cleveland. In fact, according to Axelrod, Toronto is one of the places "we're most serious about."
_Lee - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:28 PM EST (#10552) #
dp:

the liberation of Iraq

When did this happen? Did I sleep through something?


I am a bit confused by that one too. I can only guess he is using "liberation" as shorthand for "illegal invasion, occupation, and mindless slaughter of civilians"... :(
_Mick - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:35 PM EST (#10553) #
And the range of Scott Baio.

HEY now! The man carried "Charles in Charge" and was co-lead of one of the great spinoffs of our time, "Joanie Loves Chachi." (I always wondered if that meant Chachi didn't ... oh, never mind) not to mention his stalwart play on pre-Ted McGinchey "Happy Days." Awesome range from da kid.

And to Dr. Prison Fence: you know this already, but generally people who point out errors in published work are just ticked off because they believe they could do it better and never make such an obvious, unforgiveable error. We crank out tends of thousands of words a week at American Airlines and 90 percent of what we hear is "you misspelled Captatin Jaczukjurinscyki's name, you morons, how could you?" or "You wrote Columbia and it's Colombia. Thanks for caring about our country. I guess we don't matter." There's no excuse for mistakes, but there are always reasonable explanations (and staying up until 2 a.m. to file fits that description, IMNSHO).
_dp - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:38 PM EST (#10554) #
And sorry to bring politics onto this board, but one of the things I like about this place is the fact that when politics do get raised here, they're usually free of this type of Orwellian language that circulates in the US media. All of the sudden, without anyone asking me, the invasion/annihilation was called liberation and any Iraqi attacking a US soldier was called a terrorist....
_sunnyd - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:42 PM EST (#10555) #
Although it might be a little bit sad that Carlos is now moving on, the reality is that I'm tired of the Blue Jays sucking. And to me Carlos signifies one of the worst eras of the Blue Jays existence. My confidence in J.P. is definitely not at an all time high, but it's time to move on. If the Jays are going to suck, at least try to do something different...
_sunnyd - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:43 PM EST (#10556) #
Bye the way, this is the first time that I've posted on the board, but I've read it for awhile now, and it's nice to find a home of people who actually care about the Jays...
_Jonny German - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:44 PM EST (#10557) #
In the past six months I've seen compliment/complement, "sewed the seeds of dissent", confusion between flout/flaunt...the list is endless.

What's the approximate amount of times you'd say you've seen these blatant errors?

Now, what do people think about Barry Larkin, as a possible utility infielder, assuming that he is willing to assume a Berg/Gomez type salary for this role?

Yes. Absolutely. Do it. I'd much rather pay Larkin $1.5M than John McDonald $350K.
_sunnyd - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:48 PM EST (#10558) #
Oops by the way...not bye the way...I see that there are some grammar rules in effect here.
_Tyler - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:49 PM EST (#10559) #
I'm not ticked off because I think I could do SF's job any better than he does Mick. You're attributing a mindset to me that I don't have. The misuse of homonyms just happens to be a pet peeve of mine, and it's rampant right now, in Canada at least. The National Post ran a story a few weeks ago mocking the grammar of the Globe, and then made two glaring errors in their use of homonyms on the next page. I think of SF as a member of the Canadian media, and it just so happens that it's a hell of a lot easier for me to make a comment about it where I know he'll see it, in a place I go to anyway, than it is with any other media outlet. Had this been some other sort of error, I probably wouldn't have bothered saying anything, this just happens to be a problem that's been glaring of late.
_sweat - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:51 PM EST (#10560) #
Spelling mistakes in the the media are a good way to find out how anal retentive people are. What difference does it make if the word is spelled wrong if the point gets across. Remember, don't sweat the petty stuff, and don't pet the sweaty stuff(like me).
_Tyler - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:52 PM EST (#10561) #
What's the approximate amount of times you'd say you've seen these blatant errors?

I'd bet that I've noticed it 20 times in the past six months. I never used to notice it in newspapers, which leads me to wonder if print media are relying more and more on the Microsoft spelling/grammar option.
_Tyler - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:53 PM EST (#10562) #
What difference does it make if the word is spelled wrong if the point gets across.

I started to type an answer to this, and then realized it wasn't a question.
_Lee - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:53 PM EST (#10563) #
Now, what do people think about Barry Larkin, as a possible utility infielder, assuming that he is willing to assume a Berg/Gomez type salary for this role?

Yes. Absolutely. Do it. I'd much rather pay Larkin $1.5M than John McDonald $350K.


I'll go even further Jonny. I'd rather pay Larkin $1-2 million than McDonald $350K or Berg $3.50.

Although it might be a little bit sad that Carlos is now moving on, the reality is that I'm tired of the Blue Jays sucking.

I'm very tired of it as well sunny, I'm just still not convinced that losing Carlos will reduce the "sucking".

My confidence in J.P. is definitely not at an all time high, but it's time to move on.

When JP took over in TO, I had slightly more faith in him than in Gord. Now I'd say it's basically a wash. This is not a man who I think is capable of being the Jays' saviour, though I would absolutely love it for him to prove me dead wrong.

If the Jays are going to suck, at least try to do something different...

Except that there's a very real possibility that the suckage will increase with Carlos gone. The Jays had better get something very significant done this off-season, because as the roster stands now, they appear to be a very, very offensively-challenged ball club.
_SF - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:54 PM EST (#10564) #
Twenty times in 20 different sources, perhaps? Did you fire off 20 separate e-mails in outrage?
_Four Seamer - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:58 PM EST (#10565) #
All of the sudden, without anyone asking me, the invasion/annihilation was called liberation

Why would anyone ask you? If anyone around here is going to be asked, I nominate Tyler!

I suppose this is my comeuppance for complaining a few weeks back about the deliberate misspellings of certain player's names. Let's agree to disagree on the proper description of the events in Iraq, shall we?
_Lee - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:59 PM EST (#10566) #
Sweat is absolutely correct. As long as the idea is clear, pointing out silly spelling and grammar errors is really counterproductive.
_sunnyd - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 12:59 PM EST (#10567) #
There's definitely no guarantee that having Carlos walk is going to "reduce the sucking", but as a friggin' frustrated fan, I say try something else...please...paying Carlos $16.5 million and not even coming close to the playoffs doesn't do it for me.

If, as everyone seems to think, this is what J.P. was waiting for, then bring it on. This off season and upcoming year is definitely going to seal J.P.'s fate one way or the other, and determine if the Jays can enter the lofty realms of, it's sad I'm saying this, the Cleveland's and Minnesota's of baseball, or stay buried amongst the Detroit's and Kansas City's and Pittsbugh's, because that's where they're at right now, and it sucks....
_Andrew K - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:00 PM EST (#10568) #
spelling mistakes happen to everyone, from professional writers on down to cavemen

Another typo? Should surely read "up"?
_SF - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:00 PM EST (#10569) #
Mick: The headaches are all worth it when you get back to considering the truly important things in life -- Like how many anagrams you can make with "Captatin Jaczukjurinscyki's" (sic) name!
_sunnyd - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:01 PM EST (#10570) #
$18.5 million...not $16.5 million....I forgot how bad it really was...
_Lee - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:04 PM EST (#10571) #
paying Carlos $16.5 million and not even coming close to the playoffs doesn't do it for me.

I do see your point. I just really liked Carlos, and I wish I could be more certain that his departure will actually end up helping the team's chances rather than hurting them.

This off season and upcoming year is definitely going to seal J.P.'s fate one way or the other, and determine if the Jays can enter the lofty realms of, it's sad I'm saying this, the Cleveland's and Minnesota's of baseball, or stay buried amongst the Detroit's and Kansas City's and Pittsbugh's, because that's where they're at right now, and it sucks....

Actually, I really think Detroit is getting its act together and making a break from the cellar, which would leave us in really dubious company...
_dp - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:09 PM EST (#10572) #
Why would anyone ask you?

That was a joke. George Carlin reference. And I wasn't referring to it happening on this board, rather in the mass media.

I suppose this is my comeuppance for complaining a few weeks back about the deliberate misspellings of certain player's names. Let's agree to disagree on the proper description of the events in Iraq, shall we?

Yeah, they're really on the same scale...but hey, if that's your idea of liberation...you do know there's a civil war going on there?
_Tyler - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:09 PM EST (#10573) #
If anyone around here is going to be asked, I nominate Tyler!

Given the outrage I already seem to have attracted from those who write for a living, I don't know that I'm the one you want defining words these days. For what it's worth, I'm down with liberation. The place was under a murderous tyrant, it is no more-that's a liberation as far as I'm concerned. Whether the people end up better off for having been liberated remains to be seen...I grow steadily less optimistic.

Twenty times in 20 different sources, perhaps? Did you fire off 20 separate e-mails in outrage?

It was restricted to the major national media-sadly, the Post seems to be particularly bad for it. As for firing off emails in outrage, nope, couldn't be bothered. As I said above, in this case I had an opportunity to mention it in a place I visit regularly as it is.
_MatO - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:10 PM EST (#10574) #
I really think Detroit is getting its act together

You mean the team that was just nominated by BA as having the worst minor league system.
_sunnyd - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:10 PM EST (#10575) #
You're right about Detroit Lee, and the reason why they're finally getting their team together is that their owner has finally decided to start spending a little more money.

That begs the question, when do we, as fans, start getting choked at Blue Jays ownership and try to make them a little more accountable?

Rogers needs to up the Blue Jays payroll, especially with the Canadian dollar as high as it is. Even $75 million would make all the difference in teh world.

Will it ever happen???
_Moffatt - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:11 PM EST (#10576) #
Before this gets WAY too ugly, can we please knock off the political talk. Or move it to some place like Fark.

I know that's probably a tad hypocritical coming from me, but someone has to try to keep the order. :)
_Tyler - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:12 PM EST (#10577) #
That begs the question, when do we, as fans, start getting choked at Blue Jays ownership and try to make them a little more accountable?

When we start finishing above 25th in attendance?
_SF - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:12 PM EST (#10578) #
There's a billion there, but here's my early favorites:
ZIP TRYS A CANCAN -- KICKS JUJITSU
A CANCAN KICK ZIPS IT -- JUST JURY
_Lee - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:13 PM EST (#10579) #
The place was under a murderous tyrant, it is no more-that's a liberation as far as I'm concerned.

True, Saddam is gone. However, far more Iraqis (civilians) have been killed in the last nearly two years by the murderous butchers who invaded Iraq, than were killed over any comparable period by the tyrant they deposed.
_dp - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:14 PM EST (#10580) #
Before this gets WAY too ugly, can we please knock off the political talk.

Done. Facist. :)
_Daryn - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:15 PM EST (#10581) #
Did anyone hear Carlos on the fan this morning? I missed it.

I did.. seemed to me that he took the High Road...
I think he's in for a long day though, I'll be interested in how he sounds at 4:00pm
_Mike Forbes - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:16 PM EST (#10582) #
I believe if Jp is going to do something, now would be the time.. It could be bringing Clement in for a FA visit or trying to lay the base for a trade or even signing someone.
_Braby21 - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:19 PM EST (#10583) #
Rogers needs to up the Blue Jays payroll, especially with the Canadian dollar as high as it is. Even $75 million would make all the difference in teh world.

I can't see Rogers just pumping up the Payroll 50% b/c the Fans get mad. Possibly if the young Jays coming up create a buzz around Toronto, then I could see the payroll going up at the right time to keep those fans interested. But even then an increase of 50% probably won't be happening.
_sunnyd - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:19 PM EST (#10584) #
I seem to remember that the Jays had good attendance back when they actually spent a bit of money and were winning ball games...
_SF - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:19 PM EST (#10585) #
How bout this definition, courtesy of the ill-fated Captain?

JUJU: A PINK ZINC KITTY CARCASS
_Lee - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:20 PM EST (#10586) #
You mean the team that was just nominated by BA as having the worst minor league system.

MatO, give them a little credit. Improving the minor league system is a long process, given the state it is currently in. But as far as what they've been doing at the major league level, they have made their way back to respectability and are still headed upwards IMO.

You're right about Detroit Lee, and the reason why they're finally getting their team together is that their owner has finally decided to start spending a little more money.

Agreed.

That begs the question, when do we, as fans, start getting choked at Blue Jays ownership and try to make them a little more accountable?

Rogers needs to up the Blue Jays payroll, especially with the Canadian dollar as high as it is. Even $75 million would make all the difference in teh world.

Will it ever happen???


I sure hope it will. It is very, VERY difficult to be competitive consistently with what the Jays are spending, and probably impossible in the AL East. I, like you apparently, am running out of patience with the perpetual mediocrity and the rebuilding plan that seems to be regressing rapidly. Rogers says they will spend more when the time is right, but I'm sure that I believe that (and I'm not sure I would like their definition of the "right time", either).

Before this gets WAY too ugly, can we please knock off the political talk.

Sorry, didn't see this before I made my last post.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:21 PM EST (#10587) #
Sorry, didn't see this before I made my last post.

I assumed so and gave you the benefit of the doubt. :)
_Tyler - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:22 PM EST (#10588) #
I seem to remember that the Jays had good attendance back when they actually spent a bit of money and were winning ball games...

I seem to remember that the heart of those teams was players drafted and acquired through trades, not those bought off the market. If you can show me how $75 mil can buy you a winner in this market, with the Yanks and the BoSox, I'll concede the point, but I don't see how it's possible, absent a cheap core of players developed internally. The Jays don't have that yet, and JP made the right move. I'm glad he fought Godfrey off on this.
_Lee - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:22 PM EST (#10589) #
I seem to remember that the Jays had good attendance back when they actually spent a bit of money and were winning ball games...

Right. I'm worried that Rogers' perspective on this may be completely backwards.
_Ryan01 - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:26 PM EST (#10590) #
Even $75 million would make all the difference in teh world. Will it ever happen???

It happened 3 just three years ago. Rogers ended up with a team that finished under .500 and lost tens of millions of dollars. I don't think it's unreasonable for them to be a little wary about doling that kind of money right away either.

Yeah Detroit has bought their way to mediocrity... but how much more will it take to buy a playoff team? A bump in payroll at some point is probably necessary for the Jays, but I really do believe they need to build a solid team first and then spend the money. Players that look the best now rarely look that way three years later. We certainly don't want to spend the money on players that will be a burden on the team once the young players are actually ready.
_sunnyd - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:26 PM EST (#10591) #
How do you italicize text in this forum? I tried control I, and it doesn't work???
_Four Seamer - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:27 PM EST (#10592) #
I seem to remember that the Jays had good attendance back when they actually spent a bit of money and were winning ball games...

Careful not to put the cart before the horse. Did they win because they spent, or did they spend because they won and everybody's price went up? I guess the 1985-1989 teams were the latter, and the post-1990 teams the former, but you couldn't have had those World Series teams with the Carters, Alomars, Cones, Hendersons, Winfields, Molitors et al without the foundation being laid by the homegrown teams led by Stieb, Fernandez, Upshaw, Whitt, et al.

The other thing to remember is that attendance was phenomenal in the early 90s when they were contending for world championships, but they also had a sustained run of good play in the years before they hit the 4 million mark. That development helped to build the infrastructure for fan support - healthy thriving house leagues in the GTA, for example - that are sadly lacking today. That commuting times have increased significantly in the last 10 years hasn't helped matters, either, in terms of encouraging people from outside the city limits proper to make multiple visits a year.

I happen to think that if the Jays put a contender on the field, attendance will improve. But it will take more than a good year to get 50,000 people back in the SkyDome on a regular basis. Cultivating that kind of dedicated, loyal fan base takes some time.
_Lee - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:29 PM EST (#10593) #
It happened 3 just three years ago. Rogers ended up with a team that finished under .500 and lost tens of millions of dollars.

The problem was that the team three seasons ago spent a large portion of that $75-80 million on patently bad contracts, all of which are now gone. If that same amount were used to sign good players to good contracts, then the Jays might have a shot. At the current payroll, they have basically no chance, which will keep the fans away.
_Tyler - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:31 PM EST (#10594) #
If that same amount were used to sign good players to good contracts, then the Jays might have a shot.

I'll repeat my challenge. Show me some of the good contracts signed this offseason that the Jays have missed out on.
_Braby21 - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:31 PM EST (#10595) #
How do you italicize text in this forum? I tried control I, and it doesn't work???

you use < i > without the spaces and then close it with < /i > again without the spaces.

I seem to remember that the heart of those teams was players drafted and acquired through trades, not those bought off the market.

I agree, but when you can't keep your own players that you drafted or acquired through trades (Delgado, Lilly next year) its pretty tough to do.
_Lee - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:31 PM EST (#10596) #
Sunny, italics and boldface are done through html tags here. for instance italics are produced by surrounding the italicized text with the tage (i) and (/i) where the () brackets are replaced by angled brackets.
_Tyler - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:33 PM EST (#10597) #
I agree, but when you can't keep your own players that you drafted or acquired through trades (Delgado, Lilly next year) its pretty tough to do.

I don't see that the Jays couldn't keep Delgado-they had space within the payroll to do so. I don't think it would have made sense to do so though. I've said it before, but I'd rather see JP spend 80% of his budget than spend 100% if the last 20% is on marginal players who won't make a difference.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:34 PM EST (#10598) #
What do you propose the Jays do with the other 20%, Tyler?
_sunnyd - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:34 PM EST (#10599) #
I think that people who discount or downplay the payroll aspect aren't willing to face the reality that the Jays play in the American League East, and until they can somehow find a way to either switch divisions, or spend enough to beat both the Yanks and Sox, they're not going to make the playoffs.

As has been mentioned on here before, money alone isn't going to do it, but it has to be a major component. Are the Jays going to be the Expos, (I mean Nationals) or are they going to spend the money they need to compete. Period.

The Jays got young talent. Spend money.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:36 PM EST (#10600) #
A bump in payroll at some point is probably necessary for the Jays, but I really do believe they need to build a solid team first and then spend the money.

Amen, brother.
_sunnyd - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:36 PM EST (#10601) #
Thanks!
_Braby21 - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:39 PM EST (#10602) #
I don't see that the Jays couldn't keep Delgado-they had space within the payroll to do so. I don't think it would have made sense to do so though. I've said it before, but I'd rather see JP spend 80% of his budget than spend 100% if the last 20% is on marginal players who won't make a difference.

I was respoding to a post about payroll, I'm saying that I agree that going out and spending all their money on Free Agents may not be the best way to go about things. Even if their payroll is at 75M.

I'm saying IF they had a bigger payroll, that would ensure that they would be able to keep their young up and comers, as well as sign the odd Free Agent.
_Mick - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:39 PM EST (#10603) #
A PINK ZINC KITTY CARCASS
Is this some veiled reference to Mr. Moffatt?
_Braby21 - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:40 PM EST (#10604) #
Its funny how I just told someone how to use Italics and then failed to use them correctly in my last post.
_Mick - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:40 PM EST (#10605) #
Whooops, Braby, I think you left italics on.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:40 PM EST (#10606) #

Begone italics! BEGONE!
_Braby21 - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:41 PM EST (#10607) #
haha sorry
_sunnyd - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:41 PM EST (#10608) #
A bump in payroll at some point is probably necessary for the Jays, but I really do believe they need to build a solid team first and then spend the money.

What happens if J.P. doesn't do a good enough job in the next couple of years? How much of the roster needs to be homegrown?

I think with Wells, Rios, Hudson, Adams, Quiroz, Halladay et al, that now is the time to start bringing in a couple of higher priced free agents. You don't have to spend the bank, but bring in some good players, and develop a winning attitude. Especially now, with Delgado gone, there is a real opportunity to replace the losing attitude of the club.

But...throwing a bunch of young players out there to lose more than they win is not going to build a solid team first .
_Boos - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:42 PM EST (#10609) #
Is is naive to believe that ol' Ted has a plan? Reduce losses, follow J.P.'s structural M.O. and then bump payroll back to above $60.
If there is a slim chance that might be the case, then, regardless of what most of the media has said, the sky really hasn't fallen.
If not, well...watch yall heads!
_Tyler - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:42 PM EST (#10610) #
What do you propose the Jays do with the other 20%?

They've gotta find a better investment for it than spending it on guys who may/may not make a lick of difference in the long run. What about making deals for a guy with a bad contract, where you send someone who isn't much a prospect at all along, in exchange for some a decent AAA or AA guy who be part of the core when the team is ready to contend? That, in my mind, would make a lot more sense. I don't know if it's possible, but it's more logical.

If it's not possible, I'd rather see Rogers sit on the money, and invest it in players when the time comes that they might make a difference. 10 million dollars of talent isn't going to make the difference next year.
_Tyler - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:46 PM EST (#10611) #
FWIW, I don't really understand why teams have a set budget at all. It seems silly to me to say "We're going to spend $50 million on our ball club next season." Wouldn't it make more sense to say "We're going to make smart investments, and our payroll will not be above the level at which it becomes a poor investment."?
Mike Green - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:48 PM EST (#10612) #
One other related point to Four Seamer's. Not only were the Jays of 89-93 winning division titles and championships, they had a spanking new state-of-the-art facility which drew people on its own. The Skydome was the cool place to be for people who had but a passing familiarity with baseball.

The Jays' fortunes for the next 3-4 years run basically with the development of young players, and especially pitchers. Young pitchers can arrive in a hurry, and be great, or they can take years and years. One never knows. In these circumstances, a $53 million budget is fine, as long as there is a willingness to spend more at the All-Star break, if, by chance, the young ones develop faster than expected and the team finds itself in the hunt.

So, 2 for 2 on Larkin. I agree, and I'll make it 3.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:48 PM EST (#10613) #
They've gotta find a better investment for it than spending it on guys who may/may not make a lick of difference in the long run. What about making deals for a guy with a bad contract, where you send someone who isn't much a prospect at all along, in exchange for some a decent AAA or AA guy who be part of the core when the team is ready to contend? That, in my mind, would make a lot more sense. I don't know if it's possible, but it's more logical.

This makes sense.

If it's not possible, I'd rather see Rogers sit on the money, and invest it in players when the time comes that they might make a difference. 10 million dollars of talent isn't going to make the difference next year.

Not for a championship, no. But what if the extra wins bring in $12 million in revenue? Then you'd have an extra $12 million to spend next year rather than the $10 (plus interest) you have if you just let it sit there. You have to consider the ROI.

Now it may be that there's no decent way they can spend that money and get a decent ROI. I'm not sure I believe that, but given some of the recent free-agent acquisitions of the Blue Jays, I see how you could argue that.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:49 PM EST (#10614) #
FWIW, I don't really understand why teams have a set budget at all. It seems silly to me to say "We're going to spend $50 million on our ball club next season." Wouldn't it make more sense to say "We're going to make smart investments, and our payroll will not be above the level at which it becomes a poor investment."?

I figure that's how they come up with the $53 million figure in the first place. At least, I really hope it is.
_Tyler - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:50 PM EST (#10615) #
But what if the extra wins bring in $12 million in revenue?

I just don't see any way the extra wins will do that. That's my basic problem. The math doesn't seem to make sense to me.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:51 PM EST (#10616) #
I just don't see any way the extra wins will do that. That's my basic problem. The math doesn't seem to make sense to me.

That's fair enough.
_sunnyd - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:53 PM EST (#10617) #
How about the Jays switching divisions? Either moving to the National League East and having the Nationals move to the American League East, or moving to the Central Division, and having the Tigers move to the American League East.

A lot of commentators talk about the loss of playing the Yanks and the Sox, but I'd rather be in a division with a chance to win it all, then have the Yanks and Sox come in and kick the Jays butts more often...
_Fozzy - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 01:56 PM EST (#10618) #
According to Rotoworld, the "Orioles signed infielder Chris Gomez, who had been with the Blue Jays, to a minor league contract with an invitation to spring training."

I'll echo RW's thoughts: that's the best he could get? I'm stunned. Between Roberts, Mora and Tejada, I can't see him getting much playing time at all.
_Christopher - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 02:00 PM EST (#10619) #
How about the Jays switching divisions?

Maybe it's the Rocky fan in me talking, but I'd rather take the Yankees and the Sox down instead of fleeing to another division. Not saying that it will be easy to do in the near future, but it will be sweet when it happens.
_dp - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 02:03 PM EST (#10620) #
Didn't the Jays gove Gomez a major league contract last year? He was actually better than I expected- hard to believe he couldn't get something better, esp. with all the money going to SS this winter...

The O's also have Hariston still. 4 infielders for 3 spots. Gomez won't play much at all. Who saw Melvin Mora becoming who he is now? i guess that many mouths to feed really motivates a guy.
Mike Green - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 02:04 PM EST (#10621) #
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/a-good-starter-is-hard-to-find/
In the market for a starter? Studes has done some sobering research, reported in THT. COMN.

Indirectly, he makes a fine case for trying a tandem starter regime in the long run, in my view. It is much easier, I think, to find 8 pitchers who can go 3-5 innings once every 4 days than 5 pitchers who can go 6-7 innings every 5 days. Pitchers like Marcum, Vermilyea and Chulk come to mind immediately.
_Fozzy - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 02:18 PM EST (#10622) #
I agree Mike D., and frankly, I think Chulk's talents are being wasted in 1-inning stints. He was a starter in AAA and from what I see, it takes him a while to get a good feel for his sinker (and the numbers, 44Ks and only 27 BBs, about a hit an inning in 56 IP for a rookie sinkerballer, ain't bad either). When his sinker is on, it's a goody; I envision him in a long relief role next year.

If there's one thing JP doesn't get credit for, it's for silently building a team with a solid defence that complements the growing number of groundball pitchers on the roster. He's played to the strengths of Skydome, and it's something I never see mentioned by the media.
_Rob - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 02:23 PM EST (#10623) #
It's all PR spin. Basically, the team offered a loyal employee a 62 per cent pay cut

Delgado wasn't so loyal back when Griffin was blasting him for being lazy, not hustling in the field and on the basepaths, and not being a leader in the clubhouse, now was he?

Why don't RG and JP get together at a neutral site over the winter and hammer out their problems? It would be nice to have some positive reporting in a newspaper for a change.
_Tyler - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 02:24 PM EST (#10624) #
the growing number of groundball pitchers

Maybe Mike Barnett is working with the pitchers as well? He knows how to induce groundballs. ;)
_Mick - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 02:32 PM EST (#10625) #
It would be nice to have some positive reporting in a newspaper

Disagree, though perhaps just on semantics. I'd rather see neutral or even alternating postive/negative = net neutral reporting.

You don't want the Star or any paper becoming to the Blue Jays what Fox News is to the RNC in the USA.

Press releases on the front page, talking points as editorial guidance. Ugh.
_Mark - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 02:46 PM EST (#10626) #
Spending an extra 10, 15, 20 million is pointless this year. The teams young players are not reliable enough to take that gamble. If Rios, Hudson, Bush, Adams and Wells show they are capable this year and League or Rosario or Banks or Chacin(I doubt) show something positive then maybe next year you can spend the extra money. The team should be at least .500 with a 55 million payroll before you hope the extra 20 million can buy you 15 wins. I have no problem with giving up picks for Koskie or Clement. If you can flip Terry Adams for Hattig then imagine what they can bring via trade. Not only are these players helping you, but Koskie is an asset when Hill is ready to come up. The same with F-Cat, although the deal looks bad there has been a lot of interest in him the last two years at the deadline. He has an affordable contract and is an asset.
_Pete Warren - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 02:59 PM EST (#10627) #
Wow Blue Jay fans. Opening Day 2005 without Carlos Delgado, a new look renamed Skydome and perhaps 4 or 5 new changes to the club. I'm excited, and I'm not being sarcastic. Its something new, something we haven't seen before. It is truly the end of the post world series Blue Jays (circa 95-'04). People, lets just all calm down until all the deals are done. I still have faith that JP will make us a winning club. Frankly a new breath of fresh air will be good for this stagnant franchise. Here's hoping for a new sense of hope for Spring Training.
_Rob - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 03:07 PM EST (#10628) #
Disagree, though perhaps just on semantics. I'd rather see neutral or even alternating postive/negative = net neutral reporting.

Yeah, it's just semantics. We agree -- I meant neutral rather than positive. And my earlier statement about newspapers did not include The Globe and Mail, which happens to provide fair coverage of the local 25, without resorting to cheap attacks in headlines, snide comments ("How dare he?", "Huh!") passed off as analysis, or anything with an obvious agenda.

What is the coverage in the Post like? I don't read the paper and I can't read it online, so I've never seen any of their sports articles. I don't even know who writes about baseball for the paper.
_Tyler - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 03:10 PM EST (#10629) #
I'm a big Post fan, they have a decent front section. A few years back, it was spectacular, but then the Aspers ruined it. C'est la vie. Their sports section has essentially been gutted as well. Other than Cam Cole, who seems like a hockey/golf guy, there isn't much in the way of decent writing in it.
_Paul D - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 03:11 PM EST (#10630) #
What do you propose the Jays do with the other 20%, Tyler?

I'm not Tyler, but is this is an option for the Jays, I'd like to see them use this money to draft a Jared Weaver or a Stephen Drew type player.
_DeMarco - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 03:12 PM EST (#10631) #
My thoughts on the Delgado situation:

- It sucks to see him go because he was the greatest hitter ever to where a Jays uniform.
- Letting him go was the right move for a team with a $53 million budget. He would cost too much for a player with a history of injury problems that entering his declining years.
- I'm more upset over the bone-head teams that are over-paying for mediocre players and driving up the market.
- I still have faith that JP is the right guy for the job.
- I'd rather try to win without Delgado than lose with him.
- I'm looking forward to finding out what moves the Jays make now that they do have some payroll flexibility. So far I like the names that have been mentioned (Clement and Koskie)
_Ron - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 03:41 PM EST (#10632) #
Question of the Day:

Is a 52 million dollar payroll a valid excuse for being a bottom feeder in the AL especially when the Jays play in the same division as the Yanks and Red Sox?

I know from the fans point of view, a lot of people are believing the JP ship is sinking but how much blame can you place on him when he's handcuffed in terms of budget.
_Chuck Van Den C - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 03:55 PM EST (#10633) #
Why don't RG and JP get together at a neutral site over the winter and hammer out their problems? It would be nice to have some positive reporting in a newspaper for a change.

Why should JP, or anyone else for that matter, give a rat's ass what Richard Griffin has to say? Anyone still wasting their time reading the Toronto papers for baseball coverage is getting exactly what they deserve.
_Smirnoff - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 04:04 PM EST (#10634) #
I know from the fans point of view, a lot of people are believing the JP ship is sinking but how much blame can you place on him when he's handcuffed in terms of budget.

I made this comment in another thread. I agree about JP being hampered by lack of payroll flexibility. HOWEVER, I have thought and said for a long time that Delgado leaving was the most likely scenario. I know a lot of Jays fans have thought and said the same thing. I imagine JP suspected that to be true as well.

So now he has some of the payroll flexibility that he has coveted. And he has a gigantic offensive void to fill. He has known for a long time that there was a decent chance that Delgado would leave. Let's see Plan B, JP.
_GregH - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 04:07 PM EST (#10635) #
Mike Wilner was on The Fan 590 with Eric Smith between 1:00 and 1:40 today.

Not a lot new, except he made the point that no one - not JP, not Godfrey, not Rogers and not Carlos - has to be a "bad guy" in this situation - to paraphrase, Delgado became a luxury the Jays could no longer afford. Remember, the 2004 Jays had a payroll of $30M plus Carlos.

Twice he made a point often forgotten by the print media and by many fans - that Delgado as a player type (high OBP, hit for power) is exactly the kind of player craved by JP.

Discussing how the team moves on from here, he made a suggestion that he called "kind of crazy" and that I originally laughed at, but have since reconsidered a bit - sign Mo Vaughn to a minor league contract as DH and see if there's anything left in that rather large tank. MW admitted that Vaughn is overweight (I think his exact words were "a great big fat tub of goo") but thought it might be worth a shot.

The more I think about it, the more I start to think, why not?
_Smirnoff - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 04:17 PM EST (#10636) #
The more I think about it, the more I start to think, why not?

Because he isn't very good and he'll take away at bats from other people. We can sign a whole bunch of has-been players and hope that they bounce back, but I don't see what that accomplishes.
_R Billie - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 04:24 PM EST (#10637) #
As a bonus, Mo Vaughn would not cost a draft pick to sign.

I believe JP's philosophy for the team is the right one. Whether his execution or evaluation of individual players or transactions has added up to a correct implementation of that philosophy is open to debate. It's possible to get bad results with a sound philosophy and vice versa.

Financial flexibility is definately a good thing. It's not such a good thing though if it means your team is basically limited to signing average to slightly above average major league players and filling the roster with Miguel Batistas, Eric Hinskes, and Kerry Ligtenbergs while the Carlos Delgados leave or the Delgados from other teams are not even pursued. The only hope for a team in this situation is to produce multiple star players from the farm system and whether the farm system is capable of producing such a return in the next three years is anybody's guess.

I believe the Jays will have to invest more into the on-field product in the coming years if they want to see real and sustainable improvement. There's only so much that can be done by trying to find market inefficiencies. The Jays have done a good job of finding them at the lower end of the performance scale (see Tom Wilson, Greg Myers, Greg Zaun, Frank Catalanatto, etc) but that's only useful if you have a reliable core of world beaters. That reliable core is reduced by one with the loss of Delgado and nothing short of a lopsided trade can effectively replace him in short order as there are no Delgados coming up through the system.

I think the Jays made the only decision they COULD make given the contraints they've place upon themselves. And those constraints may very well be valid and logical. Three years from now the situation could look very different. Despite this I think avoiding another 90 loss season and the associated stigma in 2005 will be a significant challenge for the team. If the right moves are made this could still be a .500 team. The problem is that talent wise they now lag well behind three teams.
_GregH - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 04:28 PM EST (#10638) #
Because he isn't very good and he'll take away at bats from other people. We can sign a whole bunch of has-been players and hope that they bounce back, but I don't see what that accomplishes.

You are almost certainly right - but a minor league contract to take a look at him in Spring Training doesn't cost the team much - and if he can still hit for power (Wilner thought this was at least possible) it might be a reasonably cheap way to inject some power from a DH into a lineup with precious little.

Vaughn or other "has beens" are not a long term answer - I truly believe the answer comes from devloping players through the minors and trading for/signing when needed - the current plan, in other words. But I also believe the Jays have to win significantly more games in '05 than they did this year or the fan base will degrade even further. A relatively cheap power hitter might help with that.
_Ryan B. - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 04:32 PM EST (#10639) #
Sorry if this was posted before but with 120 replies I don't want to read through them all.

The Phillies signed John Lieber to 3 year/$21M deal.

The Marlins signed AL Lieter to a 1 year deal

The Orioles signed Chris Gomez terms undisclosed

The Red Sox signed Matt Mantie to a 1 year/$750,000 deal

The Yankees signed Jarrett Wright to a 3 year/$21M deal

Soure: ESPN.com
_Smirnoff - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 04:35 PM EST (#10640) #
It looks harmless, but I just don't see what it accomplishes. We can spend very little money on 15 guys, sign them to minor league deals, and hope to turn up a gem. Sure, that's fine.

But in terms of really improving this ballclub, there have got to be better options. R Billie's point seems dead on. It's one thing to find some bargains out there. It's another to depend upon finding bargains.
_Lee - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 04:37 PM EST (#10641) #
I'm looking forward to finding out what moves the Jays make now that they do have some payroll flexibility. So far I like the names that have been mentioned (Clement and Koskie)

That's true, this certainly will be an interesting off season for the Jays. I really like Clement; I've always thought he was a great talent and for some reason I think he would fit nicely with the Jays. Halladay, Clement, and Lilly (who the Jays REALLY need to keep after this season IMO) would be a very good top of the rotation, unfortunately, I'm not sure how willing the Jays will be to beat Cleveland's reported 3 years/$18M. Koskie is a good, solid player and would be great to have, but I'm not nearly as high on him as others seem to be. He's definitely an upgrade from Hinske, but I would much rather see the Jays get their bat by trading for Durazo, assuming they don't have to give up too much.
_Mick - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 04:37 PM EST (#10642) #
The Phillies signed John Lieber to 3 year/$21M deal.

Assuming Milton gets something like 3/27 from NYY, this is a great deal for the Yankees -- essentially Lieber and $2M for Milton. But the head-scratching commitment to Jaret Wright makes me sad and confused. I'm just a poor caveman Yankee fan ...
Gitz - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 04:39 PM EST (#10643) #
Mick: boo-hoo-hoo.
_Lee - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 04:42 PM EST (#10644) #
The Phillies signed John Lieber to 3 year/$21M deal.

The Yankees signed Jarrett Wright to a 3 year/$21M deal


So the Yankees could have brought Lieber back or signed Wright for essentially the same deal, and went with Wright? I've always thought Wright had a ton of potential and was very high on him when he was with Cleveland, but he has never been consistent. If I were the Yanks, I would probably have gone with Lieber.
_Rob - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 04:43 PM EST (#10645) #
Both Vernon Wells (26) and Reed Johnson (28) were born today. I think that's the first time two players in the same Toronto outfield have had the same birthday.

Of course, the similarity among Bell/Moseby/Barfield was remarkable (October 21/October 29/November 5, all in 1959), but I think Wells and Johnson are the first Blue Jay OF-mates to share a birthday.
Gitz - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 04:44 PM EST (#10646) #
The problem is that talent wise they now lag well behind three teams.

Maybe lower? It'd be interesting to see a 25-man-roster comparsion of the Jays and the D-Rays.
Gitz - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 04:45 PM EST (#10647) #
Both Vernon Wells (26) and Reed Johnson (28) were born today.

They were just born today? Wow. Now THAT is a youth movement! (Do I need to insert a smiley or is it obvious I'm not attacking the grammar but making a silly joke?)
_Scott - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 04:51 PM EST (#10648) #
Has anybody heard if Mike Wilner is going to the Winter Meetings? Will he be giving daily updates on the Fan?

I believe he has in the past and was wondering if he would be again. It would be nice to know ahead of time when Mike is going to be on so I don't mistakenly listen to a NHL-NHLPA debate. Mike if you are reading this,let us know.
_GregH - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 04:54 PM EST (#10649) #
That commuting times have increased significantly in the last 10 years hasn't helped matters, either, in terms of encouraging people from outside the city limits proper to make multiple visits a year.

I happen to think that if the Jays put a contender on the field, attendance will improve. But it will take more than a good year to get 50,000 people back in the SkyDome on a regular basis. Cultivating that kind of dedicated, loyal fan base takes some time.


Four Seamer, you've nailed it.

I live in Bolton (Northeast corner of Brampton), a 40 minute drive from SkyDome on Saturday or Sunday, but at least an hour and a half drive during rush hour. I took my sons to 25 games this year, mostly on weekends.

Fans for the Jays are going to have to come from the GTA - the 905 area code - because that's where most of the people live. A Jays sponsored system of buses from car pool lots would do a lot to make it easier for people from the 905 area to get there.

The other challenge facing the Jays is to get baseball into the hearts and minds of the people living in the GTA. The people (like me) who crammed Jays games in days gone by grew up always being aware of baseball, many of us listening to it on the radio with our fathers. Many of the people who live in the GTA have come here from countries with absolutely no tradition of baseball and very little awarenenss of it.

Kids' baseball registration has been declining for the past few years. For example, Bolton has about 20,000 people, most of whom, like me, having moved here in the past 5 years. It has a tradition of baseball going back almost 40 years, including several Ontario Championships at various levels, most recently in 2003 by a Rookie Ball(9 & 10 year olds)team for which my older son played. But in 2004, Bolton Baseball only had about 400 kids playing at all levels, compared to over 2,000 playing soccer.

I don't know how the Jays can get into the hearts and minds of people living in the 905 area (although I'm pretty sure it won't be with TV ads of Eric Hinske's butt!); it is something they will have to do to attract fans to the Dome.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 04:55 PM EST (#10650) #
The only hope for a team in this situation is to produce multiple star players from the farm system and whether the farm system is capable of producing such a return in the next three years is anybody's guess.

Can it be my guess? Because my guess is "yes".
Dave Till - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 04:57 PM EST (#10651) #
I think I've figured out what it is I don't like about the work of Certain Baseball Writers: they write in exactly the tone that a cruel adult would use when telling a small child that there is no Santa Claus. They write as if their audience are naive hero-worshippers who need to be told the Real Truth.

I, for one, already know that caring about people dressed in pyjamas and trying to hit a round object with a stick is kind of silly. I also already know that our local nine is underpowered, and is about to go into battle armed with pointed sticks, facing an enemy that is deploying panzers. I also know that many of the baseball players I watch on a day-to-day basis are not necessarily paragons of human virtue. Heck, I've known that ever since I read Ball Four (one of my favourite books ever, by the way).

What I want is for baseball writers to tell me things I don't know - to add to my experience as a baseball fan, to make want to look forward to reading the paper every day. For the most part, this isn't happening right now.

And I think I've mentioned this before: J.P.'s biggest problem is that he just isn't lucky enough. I don't know how you fix that.
_Rob - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 05:05 PM EST (#10652) #
They were just born today? Wow. Now THAT is a youth movement!

No kidding. Wells is the only player ever to make an All-Star team in his age-(-2) season.
_Magpie - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 05:06 PM EST (#10653) #
I find myself in almost total agreement with DeMarco's post above (#113 at 3:12 if youy want to look!)

Delgado is a great player and almost by definition, the Jays can't afford great players - at least not once they have six years of ML service...

So they need their young guys to become great before that happens. Hello, Vernon? Now would be a good time.

There does seem to be some sentiment that someone has to be blamed for all of this - either that heartless Ricciardi or that skinflint Rogers or that disloyal Delgado. This is silly and wrong - I can't see that any one of those three has done anything other than what makes the most sense for them at this moment... If I were Ricciardi, or Rogers, or Delgado I think I would have done exactly what each of them has done.

Which leads us here.

At some point, one would think, the budget has to increase. Of course, at some point, one would think, people would start showing up at the ball park.

This has the potential to become a nasty vicious circle. Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

I can understand having a little more faith in Ricciardi's philosophy and approach than his actual implementation of it. That Hinske contract... I think its arguable that this is worse than the deal Gord Ash gave Alex Gonzalez.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 05:06 PM EST (#10654) #
people dressed in pyjamas

Dave Till has just nailed the reason that I like to wear baseball jerseys to work, even in the off-season.
_MatO - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 05:11 PM EST (#10655) #
The difference between the Hinske and Gonzalez contracts is that Hinske at least looked good for one year while there was already plenty of evidence that Gonzalez wasn't any good.
Dave Till - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 05:14 PM EST (#10656) #
That Hinske contract... I think its arguable that this is worse than the deal Gord Ash gave Alex Gonzalez.

I respectfully disagree. Hinske had just been given the Rookie of the Year award. He had a broad range of skills, a good work ethic, and was young enough to improve. I would have signed him in a New York minute. Hindsight is 20-20.

Dave Till has just nailed the reason that I like to wear baseball jerseys to work, even in the off-season.

:-)
_Lee - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 05:17 PM EST (#10657) #
There does seem to be some sentiment that someone has to be blamed for all of this - either that heartless Ricciardi or that skinflint Rogers or that disloyal Delgado.

I don't necessarily agree with Ricciardi's methods, but I don't "blame" him in this case given his constraints. I certainly don't blame Delgado. I don't know that I blame Rogers either, I just wish he would open the purse strings a little now and then for Christ's sake.

At some point, one would think, the budget has to increase.

One would think. Let's just say my confidence in Ted Rogers is not complete.

Of course, at some point, one would think, people would start showing up at the ball park.

Those of us who love baseball already do, but in the TO area that isn't a large enough contigent. To get the casual fans back out, they need a better product on the field. That means they have to stop being so damn cheap where the payroll is concerned, period.
_Jim Acker - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 05:18 PM EST (#10658) #
MW admitted that Vaughn is overweight (I think his exact words were "a great big fat tub of goo") but thought it might be worth a shot.

The more I think about it, the more I start to think, why not?

Did you see how badly his bat slowed during his last year? It was so slow that a moving sundail shadow moved quicker than his swing, so slow that....you get the picture.

...but it's a low risk gamble, and who doesn't love the old theory of throwing alot of crap at a wall a hope something sticks.

Has JP or Godfrey said anything on Delgado, or what what's next yet???
_Ron - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 05:19 PM EST (#10659) #
Man Jay fan is bent on the 52 payroll, imagine how painful it is to be a D-Rays or Brewers fan. Fans of those clubs would probably give a finger to even have payroll of 40 million.
Dave Till - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 05:24 PM EST (#10660) #
Italics nuked!
_Jim Acker - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 05:28 PM EST (#10661) #
sorry about the italics!
_Lee - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 05:29 PM EST (#10662) #
Man Jay fan is bent on the 52 payroll, imagine how painful it is to be a D-Rays or Brewers fan. Fans of those clubs would probably give a finger to even have payroll of 40 million.

Right, and it would certainly be preferable if the Jays were in no way comparable to the Rays or Brewers, two organization which have no apparent desire or ability to contend any time in the next couple of decades.
_Magpie - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 05:55 PM EST (#10663) #
Hindsight is 20-20

Absolutely.

Hey, they're both stinkers!

What bothered me about the Hinske deal was that it simply wasn't necessary. You don't need to lock up a player with one year's service. Unless maybe you're afraid of huge arbitration awards down the road, I suppose.

The Gonzalez deal, dubious as it was, at least came when he was one year away from free agency - he played a key defensive position, and played it very well - he was just 26 years old - he looked like he was finally making some progress with the bat.

It took Ricciardi exactly 26 days from when he was hired to find someone else willing to take on the Gonzalez contract. Its going to take longer to unload Hinske's.
_Rocky Pebbles - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 06:03 PM EST (#10664) #
Rotoworld reported:

"The Blue Jays offered Carlos Delgado just a two-year, $12 million deal before declining to offer him arbitration last night."
_Dunny.. - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 06:05 PM EST (#10665) #
Hey GregH, you know a kid named Tanaka? He's probably 21, I think he's from Bolton... We used to have some good batlles, we were both middle infielders..just wonderin where he is these days..
_Vernons Biggest - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 06:13 PM EST (#10666) #
Apparantly JP said that he has never met, talked to, or seen David Sloane in his life and would not recognize him if he walked by him on the street.

Even with Paul Godfrey doing everything possible, knowing this, how could anyone expect a deal to be done.
_Tyler - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 06:18 PM EST (#10667) #
Even with Paul Godfrey doing everything possible, knowing this, how could anyone expect a deal to be done.

This may well have been handled a lot better without Godfrey's involvement. I don't see what he brought to the table-if that Rotoworld offer is true, JP seems to have been the guy in control of the wallet. Once Godfrey gets involved, it becomes pretty obvious that there's a split in the organization over whether they should bring him back, and instead you end up with an offer at 1/3 of his previous salary. In the eyes of Delgado and Sloane, JP can't help but look like the bad guy.

What is it exactly that Paul Godfrey does there?
_Ron - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 06:37 PM EST (#10668) #
http://tsn.ca/mlb/news_story.asp?id=107377
Know I understand why Sloane didn't even bother with a counter-offer.

Godfrey actually though a 2yr/12 mil offer was a fair place to start negotiations. He believed the free agent market had softened significantly.

That contract offer is a slap in the face to Delgado. With that kind of offer it's obvious the Jays had no intention of keeping Delgado and just want to win the PR war.

Too bad for Godfrey's case, the majority of the fans are siding with the Delgado camp.
_Ron - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 06:54 PM EST (#10669) #
The one player that hasn't been discussed that I hope the Jays have interest in is JD Drew. You could argue Drew had a better regular season than Beltran last year and is the better player.

I don't know if Boras would scare off the Jays and I don't know what his market value is, but I hope JP is inquiring about him.
Gitz - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 07:15 PM EST (#10670) #
I dunno. J.D. Drew? He's a terrific player (duh), and while it's possible he could be another Paul Molitor -- injury-prone early in his career, healthy and more dynamic later -- a team like Toronto can't afford to spend, at a minimum, $40 million over five years on "maybe." Granted, everything in life, from that sushi I just ate to Player X staying healthy, is an unknown. One can minimize that risk, by eating over-cooked ham in example A and by signing Less Sexy Player But Generally Healthy Player Y in example B. Sure, over-cooked ham isn't as tasty as sushi, and Generally Healthy Player Y will not, indeed cannot, produce like Drew. But here we are.
_ABSOLUT - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 07:34 PM EST (#10671) #
Sorry I haven't chimed in before lads but I just got back from driving Shannon Stewart to the Airport and its a hell of a commute from Halifax (had to fight 4 starters and most of the relief core for the priviledge!). Adios Carlos! Have Sloane write when you get work! I can't abide the 'greatest' handle put on one dimensional players, read: Carlos Delgado. I've been a baseball/Jays fan for some years and I must tell you that when Carlos came to the Jays my only minor league memory of him was watching players go from first to third on past balls as he was supposedly catching in Syracuse! He's a talented man when he wants to be, with a bat in his hand. Yet I can't forgive him, no matter how much money he was being paid, for not running things out for the sad Buck Martinez (the opposition were pitching Carlos tough tonight)and disrespecting the wizened Mel Queen on a mound visit when he beckoned him to the mound for an infield conference. Can anyone remember this past year when Carlos (Los Manos de lead) couldn't turn a 3-6-3 with John Olerud on the back end! Someone farther up made a point that Carlos stood out among first basemen in Jays history. Was that perchance because Pat Gillick understood that by trading away Fred McGriff for defense and passion it was well worth the exchange. If Riccardi wants to be successful and remebered then let him add some freakin passion to the Team. The Ash administration was happy to draft and seek out low ceiling players (Alex Gonzalez) who were passionless and worse, uncoachable (listen Alex....you have warning track power, get used to it).Rent some players with Passion and passable talent and introduce them to quality pitching and the wins will come....and so will the Fans. A slugging first baseman put zero fans in the seats (Can't wait until the Press gets on Delgados case in whatever US hotbed he lands in )wins and perhaps more importantly passion will. God luck JP, I'm in your corner.....for another 20 months anyway.
_Ron - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 07:55 PM EST (#10672) #
http://www.athleticsnation.com/
AN has an interview with JP

COMN
_Willy - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 09:00 PM EST (#10673) #
To got back to this morning's exchanges about writing. Quite a bit of defensiveness there. If you can't take your posts seriously enough to even re-read them before sending, why should others take them seriously? (No, this isn't about you SF, or about somebody's occasional spelling slip.) If you cannot be bothered to get even your native language straightened out, what confidence should your readers be expected to have in anything you have to say? Clarity and precision and accuracy are minimum requirements. If you get used to writing sloppily, you soon can only write sloppily--and then you can only think sloppily, too. That's what Orwell warns about in the Appendix to 1984--still worth reading. (It's far too easy/lazy to call such an attitude 'anal retentive', and dismiss it.)

Because it does matter. Might even matter to your wallet. Here's a quote from a current New York Times article on corporations lamenting the inability of their employees to write clearly. (The article is worth looking up; but you do have to register.)

"E-mail has just erupted like a weed, and instead of considering what to say when they write, people now just let thoughts drool out onto the screen,"...
_GregH - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 09:19 PM EST (#10674) #
Hey GregH, you know a kid named Tanaka? He's probably 21, I think he's from Bolton...

No Dunny, don't know him, but my family moved here from Toronto only 4 years ago.
_JackFoley - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 09:26 PM EST (#10675) #
Willy, I think the question is how seriously do posts on a baseball blog need to be taken?
_Fawaz K - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 09:51 PM EST (#10676) #
Because it does matter. Might even matter to your wallet

Even me one with bad read/write know thems not good sentences...
_greenfrog - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 10:21 PM EST (#10677) #
If the Jays offered Delgado $21M for 3 years, I don't think they were entirely out of line. Probably a bit low--I expect Delgado will get $30M+ for 3 years. (Say, $33M for 3 years, or $40M for 4 years.) But Garciaparra just accepted a one-year, $8M contract, so it doesn't look like the Jays were completely out to lunch.

$12M for 2 years does seem like a slap in the face, though.
_Jimbo3 - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 10:21 PM EST (#10678) #
A.J. Pierzynski seems to be the likely guy out if Steve Finley or another OF signs with San Fran. It might not take much to pry him out of San Fran.
_doctor_payne13 - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 10:26 PM EST (#10679) #
On the subject of J.D. Drew, was there any truth to the rumour that the Cards offered him up for Escobar last year? I vaguely remember seeing something about that, perhaps in one of Gammons' columns...
_Willy - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 10:30 PM EST (#10680) #
Willy, I think the question is how seriously do posts on a baseball blog need to be taken?

Yes, I understand that, Jack. But bad habits get started with us giving shrugs and saying "so what?", and before we know it we're stuck in them, and don't always distinguish between audiences. And most of the stuff here is easily remedied. Here's a small sampling of some recent Box booboos. (Some of these people *want* to be taken seriously.) Meh, whatever.

there is decension among the players

the parts of Schil that you convineintly left out

but in the sox defence, less rent-a-players.

that's his perogitive.

If the owners didn't lock the players out, they would have striked

As pennance I will now write out your name

hospital employees who were mesmerized over his poped out sutures!

the payroll discreptancy

I think all GM's believe hoheartedly

with all the gluttony of FA shortstop this off season [means the glut of shortstops!]

All of the sudden, ...

Yeah, it's just semantics. We agree -- I meant neutral rather than positive.
_GregH - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 10:38 PM EST (#10681) #
I'm just posting this because I don't know where to find player salaries:

I notice Jose Lima was not offered arbitration. How much was he paid this year? I know in the one game the Dodgers won in the NLDS, he was awesome.
_Tyler - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 10:43 PM EST (#10682) #
I think he pitched one night in SkyDome and got hammered. He seems like he's the type who gives up a lot of homers-good in Chavez, but trouble elsewhere, IIRC. Wow...he apparently only made 950K this year.
_Tyler - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 10:44 PM EST (#10683) #
BTW, GregH dugoutdollars.blogspot.com is usually good for this sort of thing.
_GregH - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 10:51 PM EST (#10684) #
Thanks Tyler

Wow, at that kind of price, I think he might be worth some thought. I was at the game he pitched in Toronto and really had no impression of him (I don't think he lasted long). I was really impressed with the NLDS game against the Cards - as much by his passion and attitude as by the excellent game he pitched. IMHO the Jays could use an injection of attitude.

I remember the commentators during that game remarking how much Lima's team mates liked him.

If I remember, I think he has a gorgeous wife too - always a plus! ;)
_John Northey - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 10:57 PM EST (#10685) #
Someone asked how the Jays can get more 905'ers to come to games. Well, I'm up in Georgetown (still 905) and want to go but do not want to drive downtown. The *@&! GO Train only runs Monday to Friday and only out of here in the morning rush and all trains are back before 7 pm. Weekend GO buses are 2 hours to get down to a Jays game (ugh). If the Jays would sponser the train (ie: cover costs beyond the fares or something) then you'd see me and others from this area (including Brampton) go to games a lot more often. When I lived in Port Credit I found it easy to get to games (15 minutes on the train, train ran every hour every day until 2 am).

Good public transit = easy to get to games = more attendance

Not just for me but for all of the GTA outside of the Lakeshore line.
_Ron - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:38 PM EST (#10686) #
Well at least if Lima came to the Jays, the groupies would stay away:)
_Vernons Biggest - Wednesday, December 08 2004 @ 11:42 PM EST (#10687) #
I believe that the White Sox have adopted a shuttle system for fans that need fast transportation to U.S. Cellular from places far from the stadium. There are a couple of "White Sox Shuttle Stations" located throughout the suburbs of Chicago.

This would be the equivalent of having a "BlueJays" shuttle station at Oakville, Oshawa, etc., so that fans out of reach from a convenient way of transport can get to games.

I, personally take the GO Bus from Mississauga to Union and find that its quite convenient and quick. There is a market for this idea since i see alot of Jays fans taking the GO Bus (on game days) on a regular basis.
_JackFoley - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 12:58 AM EST (#10688) #
Willy, I have no idea who posted those comments. I don't know their age, nation of origin, educational or economic background, keyboarding ability, etc. and as a result I'd have a tough time judging their posts on anything but what they were trying to say.

Irregardless, I got you're point and no wear you coming from.
Gitz - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 02:08 AM EST (#10689) #
Strangely, "irregardless" is a legitimate word, even though intuitively you'd think it wasn't, and there's really no reason to use it instead of "regardless." If you don't believe me, you can look it up. (Not "it," but "irregardless.")
Gitz - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 02:09 AM EST (#10690) #
Oh yeah, baseball. So where does Carlos end up?
_JackFoley - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 02:41 AM EST (#10691) #
I knew that it was a real word, but it's still a poor choice. Even the dictionary suggests sticking with regardless!

As for baseball, Carlos ends up with the Yankees. I'd love to see him Seattle, but Carlos has mentioned a preference for staying on the east coast and the Yankees are the Yankees.
_JackFoley - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 02:45 AM EST (#10692) #
I also see that Tony Clark's name has been linked to the Jays. He's obviously not a starter at this point, but he's an interesting choice. I'd also, playing armchair GM, consider Travis Lee to fill the void.
_R Billie - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 03:54 AM EST (#10693) #
Travis Lee or Tony Clark to replace Carlos Delgado. Isn't that like repairing a hole in the wall with paper mache? I understand the Jays are on a budget but why sign guys who have little present value and are unlikely to gain any future value? Haven't we had enough Tanyon Sturtzes and Dave Bergs? Sure they play the game "hard" and the "right way". Not that that would buy you a cup of tea in China.

I need to work on my analogies.
_JackFoley - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 04:42 AM EST (#10694) #
To continue the poor analogies, I think whoever is standing at first next year will look like Sinbad to Delgado's Chris Rock.
_Fozzy - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 06:29 AM EST (#10695) #
According to Rotoworld, "the Diamondbacks today will announce the signing of Troy Glaus to a four-year, $45 million contract." uhhhh...
_Moffatt - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 08:33 AM EST (#10696) #
According to Rotoworld, "the Diamondbacks today will announce the signing of Troy Glaus to a four-year, $45 million contract."

I really hope Rotoworld has that wrong.

The annoying thing is that when teams like Arizona runs into serious financial trouble (which if they do stuff like the above, they will), too many of the talking heads will blame the players for escalating salaries and the "system". If this happens, I hope everyone remembers some of the truly awful moves we've already seen this off-season.
_Daryn - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 08:49 AM EST (#10697) #
But what if the extra wins bring in $12 million in revenue?

I just don't see any way the extra wins will do that. That's my basic problem. The math doesn't seem to make sense to me.

I think that the Jays focus for the next few years should be on drawing "Baseball Fans" to the Dome rather than Skydome Fans... even "Jays Fans" would be a start, but there isn't going to be much to cheer for...

I'm wondering, if instead of spending the $12-18Mil on Carlos.. (ok, $8-$12Mil), they put the money right into promoting the club/sport... which would generate a stronger fan base???

What does "promoting the club/sport" even mean?? I don't know.. but I can sure tell you it does NOT mean:
- trucking in loads of hig-schoolers, on the premise that if they scream all night they'll get on the Jumbo-Tron...
- competing with local bars and radio stations as a source of current music
- shooting crappy T-Shirts out of an Air Cannon.

I think it means:
- bring BASEBALL TEAMS to watch the game
- Using the Jumbotron to explain BASEBALL things like the hit and run
- using the breaks between innings to update us on the players coming through the farm system.
- release stats that talk about tangible growth in players, not just RBI totals...
- explaing "rally caps" and not "waving" your own pitcher, and sitting down during the game, and cheering for a good catch...
- getting the players out onto TV and Radio... Every Saturday at 1:00pm we could have the "Greg Zaun Show" on TSN.
- getting "brand recognition", and while I'm at it, STOP changing the uniforms so much... You don't make money by trying to sell a new t-shirt ever year, you make it by having something everyone recognizes and wants, and then USING their own willingness to buy it to get your brand out onto the streets.... (I bought a nice fitted cap 4 Styles ago, and now it just looks "old", so I don't wear it)

I don't know for sure, if I was a pro at this, I'd be .... well.. a pro at it... but I'm thinking this team made a MAJOR mistake when it was filling the stadium in not teaching these fans WHEN TO CHEER!!!!
_Daryn - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 08:50 AM EST (#10698) #
Uh-oh BEGONE!
_Daryn - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 08:50 AM EST (#10699) #
Hmm.. BEGONE I Said
Mike Green - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 08:50 AM EST (#10700) #
Italics begone.
_Daryn - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 08:52 AM EST (#10701) #
try again?
_Daryn - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 08:52 AM EST (#10702) #
**hanging head in shame**
Mike Green - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 08:55 AM EST (#10703) #
Phew, that was rough.

Moffatt, check out Troy Glaus' Baseball Reference comps. Schmidt and Reggie are 1 and 2, and it's a pretty impressive list overall. I'm not sure I buy the comps, but if you do, you've got a Hall of Famer in mid-career.

Personally, I'd be too worried about the shoulder injury to make that kind of investment.
_Moffatt - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 09:11 AM EST (#10704) #
His two PECOTA comps are Bob Allison and Dale Murphy. That sounds closer to reality.

Glaus is a terrific player, but there's no way I'd sign him to a long-term deal right now. The name "Wayne Garland" keeps popping into my head, even if it isn't exactly a fair comparison. :)
_Magpie - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 09:12 AM EST (#10705) #
I'm not sure I buy the comps, but if you do, you've got a Hall of Famer in mid-career.

I don't buy the comps, not at all. The problem is the enormous difference in context - for Glaus to put up the same numbers over the last five years that Schmidt was doing in the late 1970s or Reggies in the early 1970s... is not truly comparable. Jackson had led the AL in OPS twice when he was the same age Glaus is now; Schmidt had been among the top five in his league three times. Glaus cracked the Top 10 once.

And of course, Schmidt was actually better after he turned 30...

But if Glaus is getting $10 million a year for four years, I would think David Sloane and Carlos Delgado are two very happy fellows this morning.
_Marc - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 09:26 AM EST (#10706) #
The D-Backs really are not one of the smartest teams around. I would be more than happy to have Chad Tracy (Wade Boggs-lite) at 3B with James D'Antona coming up in late 2005 or 2006 to replace him. Plus they have Brian Barden at AAA (and available in the Rule 5) who is basically Joe Randa. For a team struggling with money, they would be much more economical options.
Named For Hank - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 10:08 AM EST (#10707) #
I also see that Tony Clark's name has been linked to the Jays.

The Cheer Club would be mortified at their relentless heckling of Tony while he was a Yankee.
_Lee - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 11:04 AM EST (#10708) #
The one player that hasn't been discussed that I hope the Jays have interest in is JD Drew. You could argue Drew had a better regular season than Beltran last year and is the better player.

I don't know if Boras would scare off the Jays and I don't know what his market value is, but I hope JP is inquiring about him.


I don't think it's very likely. I've read that Boras is asking for 5 years/$50M for Drew which is 1) probably out of the Jays' range, and 2) way more than he's proved that he's worth IMO, but I'm fairly confident someone will give it to him. The guy has a lot of talent, but he never really made anything of it until his contract year. He also has a significant history of missing a lot of games with (often dubious) injuries. I think there are a lot of better buys out there as far as a bat is concerned.
_Lee - Thursday, December 09 2004 @ 11:06 AM EST (#10709) #
According to Rotoworld, "the Diamondbacks today will announce the signing of Troy Glaus to a four-year, $45 million contract."

Umm, aren't they like one bad contract away from bankruptcy?
_Daryn - Friday, December 10 2004 @ 12:48 PM EST (#10710) #
I don't know if Boras would scare off the Jays

He'd scare off me...
and if he didn't, I wouldn't deal with him on principle.. Use Market forces in reverse to drive him out of the game...
_Daryn - Friday, December 10 2004 @ 12:48 PM EST (#10711) #
I don't know if Boras would scare off the Jays

He'd scare off me...
and if he didn't, I wouldn't deal with him on principle.. Use Market forces in reverse to drive him out of the game...
_Daryn - Friday, December 10 2004 @ 12:49 PM EST (#10712) #
Geez.. I'm SURE I didn't double click..
looks like I've basically trashed this thread, lets erase the whiteboard andstart over
_Daryn - Friday, December 10 2004 @ 12:50 PM EST (#10713) #
Umm, aren't they like one bad contract away from bankruptcy?

Which way?
Jays Roundup Special: December 8 | 195 comments | Create New Account
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