This is SUCH an easy question for me ... Darrell Evans, and not just because of the Jamesian SABRmetric conclusion that he's one of the best third basemen not in the Hall of Fame.

The guy hit 120 homers for Atlanta, then was "washed up" at 29 (not quite a "Frank Robinson is an old 30" mistake, but pretty egrgious), and was traded to SF, where he hit 153 homers for the Giants before being declared "washed up" at 36. The Giants should've known better, as he went to Detroit where he belted 162 homers before finally retiring at 42.

And related to another discussion last week, before we start talking about Johan Santana someday chasing Roberto Clemente as the greatest Rule V draft pick ever, consider that Evans, while behind Clemente obviously, is also ahead of Santana:

December 2, 1968: Drafted by the Atlanta Braves from the Oakland Athletics in the 1968 rule V draft.

That is all.

This is SUCH an easy question for me ... Darrell Evans, and not just because of the Jamesian SABRmetric conclusion that he's one of the best third basemen not in the Hall of Fame.

The guy hit 120 homers for Atlanta, then was "washed up" at 29 (not quite a "Frank Robinson is an old 30" mistake, but pretty egrgious), and was traded to SF, where he hit 153 homers for the Giants before being declared "washed up" at 36. The Giants should've known better, as he went to Detroit where he belted 162 homers before finally retiring at 42.

And related to another discussion last week, before we start talking about Johan Santana someday chasing Roberto Clemente as the greatest Rule V draft pick ever, consider that Evans, while behind Clemente obviously, is also ahead of Santana:

December 2, 1968: Drafted by the Atlanta Braves from the Oakland Athletics in the 1968 rule V draft.

That is all.

If you mean "underrated" by baseball fans at large, the profile of an underrated hitter would be one who hits for a relatively low batting average, plays a key defensive position well, hits quite a few homers but doesn't come close to leading the league and draws a lot of walks.

Darrell Evans, Bobby Grich and Andy Van Slyke all come to mind. I'd personally choose Grich.

Answering the question a little differently... Jim Acker is underrated. Mention Jim Acker to your average Jays fan and they'll tell you how much he stunk. And he did... in his final season. But what about all the years of great relief before that? He was really good at times and gets no credit for it.

Mike, that's a good description. Let me refine it a bit:
1 - low batting average, but lots of walks

2 - doesn't hit in the 3 or 4 spot in the batting order

3 - plays defense very well at a key fielding spot (C,CF,2B,SS) or gold-glove well at any other spot

4 - aged better than the typical player

So, under the conditions, the best player might be Dwight Evans. Darrell Evans, too.

We tend to forget about pitchers, so let's add criteria for them as well:
1 - low win%

2 - low K rate, but great K/BB ratio

3 - hardly ever considered the ace of the staff

4 - aged better than the typical pitcher

Off the top of my head, and not looking at all, the best active pitcher under those conditions would be Jamie Moyer? Brad Radke? This one is tougher to think about...

He's probably not the most underrated player of my era, but how about David Wells as an "out-of-the-box" suggestion? While I kind of think of him mostly as a combative, out-of-shape biker guy, he has been an above-average pitcher who throws lots of innings every year, something quite valuable in this era. (Then again, maybe it's just my perception that's out-of-whack)

Though he's pitched on very good teams, off the top of my head, I wouldn't have thought his W-L record would be anything close to 212-136. His post-season stats are quite impressive, too: 10-3, 3.18 in 113 IP.

Actually, I might suggest Dave Stieb as a guy who never really got "enough" credit for his accomplishments, but that may just be the Blue Jay fan in me...

that may just be the Blue Jay fan in me

Actually, I would expect most "underrated" players to be more appreciated by hometown fans in a discussion like this.

I grew up 80 miles from Detroit and lived two blocks from the Tigers' AAA team stadium, so Evans was a hometown guy for me, more or less. (I saw him hit his 400th home run just after saying to the guy next to me, "Tie game. This would be a nice time for him to pass Kaline.")
For another for instance, as a kid on the BRM bandwagon I was a Reds fan and thus maybe overappreciate the generally underappreciated Davey Concepcion.

Hmm... looking at tangotiger's criteria, Boomer is a great hit on three of the four... was 2000 the only year he was the ace of his staff? Maybe he's not so out-of-the-box after all? :)

As a knuckleball fan I'd lean toward Phil Neikro and any other knuckler out there. He didn't get to the bigs until he was 25 and was 28 before he was a regular starter, yet he still was over 300 in the win department. After a solid year in NY in '85 he was let go despite a league average ERA coming one year after a 123 ERA+ year. He was trapped in the purgatory that was Cleveland in the 80's, traded to the Jays where Jimy Williams wasted him (10 days between starts for a knuckleballer? What a knucklehead), then a final start in Atlanta to end it. Then a looong wait to get in the Hall, even being the best in a year when no one was voted in (why let a knuckleballer in? Lets just leave the doors closed) before getting in in 1997. Not sure if that was the longest wait (10 years after retiring) for a 300 game winner but it is probably close (matches Don Sutton).

For a HOFer he got no respect.

So, the title of this thread is meant to suggest that Jeter is the most OVER-rated player of this generation? Not even close; in fact, I think public perception of him is quite in line with his true value to the Yanks.

Ted Simmons. He played in the very long shadow of Bench at the beginning of his career but I'm still surprised that he gets no discussion about worhiness. His career OPS+ of 118 is excellent and holds up well against his main contemporary - Carter (120). He was durable with about 8600 AB's. His peak was strong with 5 seasons of OPS+ over 135. One detraction was that his defense was only average (at least going from memory). Based on the criteria described above his fits well (although his walks only barely meet the 1/10 threshold).

worhiness = Hall worthiness (inexplicably)

So, the title of this thread is meant to suggest that Jeter is the most OVER-rated player of this generation? Not even close; in fact, I think public perception of him is quite in line with his true value to the Yanks.

Lee, I bleed pinstripes, so I understand what you're saying -- in some ways, Jeter is so overrated that he's now underrated. He's a terrible fielder but still the best shortstop in the history of the greatest franchise ever, and it's no contest.

The headline was mostly a jab at the people here (and elsewhere) who really do believe Jeter, who I imagine would be welcome playing 6 and leading off in Toronto, is the most overrated player in the game.

Sorry, Dwight Evans is not eligible. See, he won Gold Gloves, and Derek Jeter has won a Gold Glove, so therefore he cannot be the anti-Jeter. ;)

Seriously though... Brian Giles comes to mind. I think many casual fans are barely aware of him, and he's been a terrific hitter for many years.

Tony Fernandez

He was a machine

The headline was mostly a jab at the people here (and elsewhere) who really do believe Jeter, who I imagine would be welcome playing 6 and leading off in Toronto, is the most overrated player in the game.

If he isn't THE most overrated, in terms of how good a player he actually is compared to the perception of his value, he's got to be near the top. The Gold Glove is the ultimate example of his reputation outstripping his performance.

Of course, a decade ago Joe Carter would've been a good nomination as the game's most overrated player, but I'm certainly glad for his time in TO.

Overratedness isn't really a problem, unless it causes a player to be grossly overpaid. (And even then, it wouldn't be a big problem for the Yanks). Jeter's probably one of the few players who really does help his team financially with more than just his on-field performance.

I don't know if he himself sells tickets or increases ratings, but Jeter certainly does add to the "marketability" of his team. (And if you're including THAT in his "true value", Lee, I might actually agree with your statement)

Brian Giles....I have him down too. He's had a down year in SD, but he's surely one of the best hitters around, yet continues to go unnoticed.
Others:
- Tim Wakefield. Every team could use this guy in the starting rotation or in the bullpen.
- Reggie Sanders. Name someone with as many 20+ homer seasons that go as unnoticed.
- Mark Loretta.

http://www.tangotiger.net/catchers.html
According to my study (COMN), Simmons was indeed an average fielding catcher, with respect to anything involving runners on base (WP, PB, BK, SB, CS, PO).

I never looked at K/BB rates of his pitchers.

http://whbl.net
Just a notable name that I always felt was overlooked and underappreciated by the league at large:

Jose Cruz

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cruzjo01.shtml

I know the defense was questionable at best (although Cruz's RF was always higher than the league average), but he was a picture of consistency, a fan favorite and one of the high-OBP, low-profile players you speak of here.

Certainly I'm as biased as anyone, having grown up watching him play.

-E

Barry Bonds.

Jose Cruz is/was and always will be absolutely terrible.

To further that point: Bonds has posted an OPS+ greater than 150 for 16 straight seasons and has posted a 200 OPS+ 7 times. He has 7 MVP Awards. He has 500 stolen bases. He has 8 Gold Gloves. He holds the single-season HR record and will soon own the career record. He owns the career walks record. He might well own the career runs record by the time he's done. And yet he couldn't even crack Major-League Baseball's All-Century Team, he's been criticized and denigrated for years by most of the baseball-watching and -writing public, and he's never been appreciated for what he is: Babe Ruth, upgraded. For all the attention he's received lately, I still think he's underrated.

"Jose Cruz is/was and always will be absolutely terrible."

Why do you say that? Numbers backup?

You know I'm talking about Sr., right?

-E

HAHA, I'm a moron...

Yeah, His old man was a nice player

He's stellar on RBI baseball

Tangotiger - thanks for the link and the interesting study. I think your point at the end is right - kinda cool. Anyway, in its way it backs up two things I always subjectively felt - that Tony Pena's defense was overrated and Lance Parrish's defense was underrated.

One of the problems in looking for the most underrated players, I find, is that you wind up with the sort of thing Bill James uses Joe Rudi as an example of: guys who were good, who got their due, and get brought in because they seem underrated, even if they weren't. I'm not saying anyone else's picks are like this, I just find my own picks, like Jimmy Key, for example, fall into this mold when I look up the stats.

That said, I concur with Dunny. Tony Fernandez seems like the best example I can think of of a Jay who doesn't necessarily get his due.

I'd add, as another characteristic of underrated players, that looking "unathletic" is a key component, especially when related to fielding.
He's obviously not underrated as a whole for obvious reasons, but I always thought that Cal Ripken was a much better fielder than he was given credit for - he just didn't fit the public's perception of what a SS should look for.

As for most underrated overall, I'd have to say Rickey Henderson. For the longest time he was talked about like he was one of those tremendously talented players who squandered his gifts, a "he can take over the game... when he feels like it" kind of guy. Like Bonds, he was downgraded in the public's eyes because of his ego and attitude.

Sorry - 'of what a SS should look LIKE'.

Jeff Kent is another underrated fielder for this reason.

Interestingly, Jose Cruz Jr (version 2003) was EXACTLY the kind of player that both Mike and Tangotiger are describing.

He hit for a low average (.250), he played great defense (he won an OF Gold Glove), he hit for some power (20 HRs) but nowhere near a league leader, and he drew a ton of walks (102 BBs).

He's too young (age 30) to have aged well yet but much of his at bats came in the #7 and #8 slots that year. Youneverknow.

I always felt like Mike Bordick got a raw deal.

He came to play almost every day for 14 years, and though he put up average numbers he had incredibly solid defence. He never was paid much, never won a gold glove despite his records, was only once an all-star (2000) and even in the days of lunatic contracts never even got $5 mil. He never complained about his role or the team, was an awesome instructor for Hudson, Hinske, Adams and Hill, and faded off into the sunset with little-to-no fanfare.

I wonder what would have happened if he hadn't spent the prime of his career in the shadows of Cal Ripken...

Boy I hope he comes back in some form to the Jays as an instructor or a coach.

And for all Delgado has done in the past decade, he's pretty unrecognized south of the border; I think his contract is more well known than he is. Put him in Yankee pinstripes in '93 and see what would have happened...

I'm not sure whether aging well as a pitcher will make you underrated or not. With longevity comes increased win totals, and the "approval" ratings tend to follow.

When I think of underrated pitchers, Candelaria, Tudor and Key come to mind. Their careers were short enough that they did not huge nos. of wins. In a weird way, Tanana might fall into that category too; he was much better than Ryan for a few years in the mid-70s, but was overshadowed by all of those Ks.

http://www.hardballtimes.com
Two words: Bert Blyleven.

Ignore the wins for a moment and just look at some of the other numbers, then consider how many "average" baseball fans either a) know who he is, or b) think he's a Hall of Famer.

http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=210720
I didn't know where else to add this but I know there's a lot of Da Box members that play MVP so I thought I'd share the news
that the factsheet for MVP Baseball 2005 has been released

- Owners mode (set prices for hot dogs, promtion days, etc..)
- Full Spring Training Mode
- Create A Stadium

COMN for all the details

even in the days of lunatic contracts never even got $5 mil

I was going to reply along the lines of "nobody was ever THAT lunatic", but then I looked it up and see that Bordick was paid $4.87M for his 79 OPS+ in 2002. Cherry-picking his worst season? Not at all - his career OPS+ was 83. The shadow of the Cal? Not really, Bordick played in Oakland until he was 31. With career earnings over $25M, I'd say Mike did very well for himself.

Two words: Bert Blyleven.

You know... before the unofficial "put Blyleven in the hall" campaign seemed to gain momentum in recent years, besides his contributions to the '87 Twins, two things would honestly have come to my mind first in hearing his name:

1) His record for most HRs allowed in a season (because I remember it being talked about a LOT when it was being set)
2) He is from Holland. Isn't that vierd? (The Dutch must just love Mike Myers...)

Does that make me Aaron's "average" baseball fan? :)

Of course I'm too young to remember much (if any) of Blyleven's time in Pittsburgh and earlier. It was only in preparing for a Scoresheet Baseball oldtimers' league a few years ago that I really noticed how good he'd been in the early '70s...

Many of my top choices have already been nominated, (the Evans-es, Blyleven) so I'll just toss out two others -- Tim Raines and Brett Butler. Oh, Craig Biggio, too. Not the current guy. The one who played catcher and second pretty well for the Astros. (The outfielder version is probably overrated, not underrated...)

In my lifetime, I don't know, but as of now, I'd consider Bobby Abreu. Check out these numbers:

Over the last six years, Abreu's average line is .308/.418/.530, 110 runs, 26 homers, 96 RBI, 31 steals, 109 walks. Among the top eight in NL in times reaching base for all six years. Among the top eight in OBP every year but 2001. Among the top ten in steals every year but 1998. His career OPS+ of 140 is 18th-best among active players, 74th-best all-time.

But Abreu has never reached the top ten in the MVP voting, and until 2004, he'd never made an All-Star team.

I think the rise of fantasy sports will make it tougher for players to be "underrated" going forward, at least among serious fans. Picking up on Lucas's pick, Bobby Abreu does not get the recognition he deserves from casual fans, but any auction league participant knows how valuable, statistically, he can be -- and how much you have to pay to draft him. Similarly, Shaun Alexander is probably not top 50 in the NFL in jerseys sold...but there's no way he lasted beyond the fifth or sixth overall pick in any fantasy draft in North America.

Anyway, put me down for Reggie Sanders.

As a matter of fact, I suspect that fantasy sports also has done plenty to diminish the "large market bias" that was too often tied to sports stardom.

You could do a helluva lot worse than a starting outfield of LF R. Sanders CF B. Giles and RF B. Abreu, but because of their relative status on the star system rankings, many fans of a team with that outfield (and 3-4-5 in the lineup) would probably be worried or even complain.

I don't think there's an OF active right now I would take over that trio.

the people here who really do believe Jeter, who I imagine would be welcome playing 6 and leading off in Toronto, is the most overrated player in the game

He'd be utterly welcome here, I'd be delighted to employ him on any team I ran, and he's still the most overrated player in the game, by a country mile. It isn't even particularly close. There hasn't been a player more overrated than Jeter since Nolan Ryan. A player can be great, like Ryan or Jeter, and still be overrated. The "star system" of modern sport practically ensures it.

I think I'd go along with the Bob Abreu pick.

I want to put in a plug for Jim "The Toy Cannon" Wynn.

Toiling in the hitter's nightmare Houston Astrodome, during an incredibly low offence era, Jim Wynn's numbers are borderline HOF when taken in context.

The Toy Cannon is rarely ever mentioned in the same breath as similar players, yet was a feared hitter in his era, sporting a career OPS+ of 128.

Answering the question a little differently... Jim Acker is underrated. Mention Jim Acker to your average Jays fan and they'll tell you how much he stunk. And he did... in his final season. But what about all the years of great relief before that? He was really good at times and gets no credit for it.

Acker deserves a lot of credit for pitching well when acquired as a mid-season pickup in the 1989 season - the Jays would not have won the division without him. In his first incarnation with the club, he was basically a long reliever; if I turned on the radio and Acker was pitching, I knew that the starter had gotten bombed and that the Jays were behind in the game.

I agree with Jordan that Barry Bonds is underrated; his numbers are so awesome that one tends to discount them a bit.

My nominee for underrated ballplayer is Rance Mulliniks: excellent gap hitter, played a decent third base (though occasionally subbed for by Iorg), and could play shortstop in a pinch.

Picks that I want to second:

Barry Bonds is obviously the most underrated player. He's so clearly the best player ever and yet many people discount his abilities (Jeff Kent MVP, 7 or 8 writers not making him their MVP vote, etc.)

but other good picks include:

David Wells
Tony Fernandez
Brian Giles
Rickey Henderson
Bert Blyleven

Before reading the thread in my head popped the names Bonds, Wells, Fernandez, and Rickey as my immediate picks.

Barry Bonds is not clearly better than Babe Ruth.

I agree with Blyleven, Grich, Bonds and Abreu, but when your lifetime is as long as mine, there are more candidates.

James Rodney Richard qualifies as a "what if" story and seems to have been forgotten, so I think he's tragically underrated by baseball fans and historians. For the young'uns saying "who?" right now, this feature on Astros Daily is a must-read.

Mick,

Thanks for the clarification. :)

He's a terrible fielder but still the best shortstop in the history of the greatest franchise ever, and it's no contest.

I definitely agree with the second part (as you may be able to tell, I'm a huge Jeter fan), but do you really think he's a terrible fielder? I know he gets hung with that criticism alot, and certainly he doesn't remind me of a 1990's Omar Vizquel (IMO the best defensive SS who has played in my lifetime), but I have always seen him as at least mediocre defensively. Certainly not a top defensive SS, but I would rather have him playing defense than at least 14 of the other major league starting SS.

Edgar Martinez is remembered TODAY, because his retirement/last-go-round is still fresh in everyone's mind, but I never thought he received the attention his talents merited (MVP voting, media, etc.); probably a combination of his humility, his geography, and his position (DH).

How about John Olerud? Pretty much the least "flashy" player around... always over-shadowed by bigger "star" teammates (Alomar/Carter, Piazza, ARod/Buhner/Edgar), not a lot of power, played most of his career away from the big US media markets, and in pitchers' parks. He also happened to play in a time with many "flashier" first basemen. Only two All-star game appearances?! (Speaking of that, with Tim Salmon never having been selected, his name should probably be brought up, too!)

Outside of Toronto, I think Olerud will be largely forgotten. Even in his best seasons, his accomplishments seemed to go under-recognized. I remember thinking he got screwed out of the '93 MVP... I'd forgotten that TBH was a UNANIMOUS choice, and that Olerud even finished behind Molitor. 1998 -- 2nd in OBP, 3rd in OPS+, 12th in MVP voting?

What's the difference between Olerud's career and (say) Steve Garvey's? Johnny O's about a year behind Garvey in PAs, and while their (adjusted) BAs and SLGs are pretty comparable, Olerud's got a 70 point advantage in OBP.

I guess comparing Garvey with Olerud isn't really "fair", in that Garvey may have even been more overrated then than Jeter is now. (Most overrated of all time... Pete Rose?) Still, Garvey gets a ton of HOF votes every year, while I'd be shocked if Olerud breaks double digits in his one time on the ballot.

It was Edgar's name that made me think about Olerud. One thing about Edgar, though, is that he was clearly beloved in Seattle, as anyone who caught any of this year's last series can attest. He got the kind of sendoff very few do. I suspect John Olerud's career will end very quietly...

I like Brian Giles, had him in a keeper league since the Indians Dealt him out from under Belle/Justice, Lofton and Ramirez...

but for true under-rated in real team value, I'd go with J.T. Snow.
His image was trashed by Fantasy Baseball, but he was a great defensive first baseman that from 95-2000 drove in more than 95 RBI most years...

after that I'd suggest Jim Rice, he DID receive some accalades, but never what he deserved... he was a TOP hitter for 12years...

I can't say that I agree with Jim Rice. Dewey Evans was as good a hitter (127 vs. 128 OPS+, and Dewey didn't hit into all those DPs), was a much better fielder, and had a longer career, but received 1/10th of the press that Rice did.

I was going to reply along the lines of "nobody was ever THAT lunatic", but then I looked it up and see that Bordick was paid $4.87M for his 79 OPS+ in 2002. Cherry-picking his worst season? Not at all - his career OPS+ was 83. The shadow of the Cal? Not really, Bordick played in Oakland until he was 31. With career earnings over $25M, I'd say Mike did very well for himself.

There is far, far more to being a great ball player than offensive stats. Overall, I think Bordick was definitely underrated.

There is far, far more to being a great ball player than offensive stats.

And Bordick was paid far, far more than his offensive stats warranted.