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Okay, based on yesterday's QOTD thread, today we'll host a different kind of fantasy draft, following on the concept"You're picking an all-time All-Star team for one short series. You oppenent gets first pick of the pitchers. You get first pickof the position players. Who's your choice?"

The GMs are in place; the rules follow. So today's ...

Question of the Day: Who will Mike take first?



The GMs are Jobu and Mike D., with possibly Shrike filling in as a Co-GM with Mike. Any of the above can designate any other regular poster to make a pick for their team in the event of a last-minute meeting or a boss walking into the office with a pink slip. The draft will officially begin at 12:30 p.m. Eastern time, though either GM is welcome to start making picks earlier if available. Beginning at 12:30, if a pick in either half of the draft has not been made in 30 minutes, the GM will be assigned Doug Ault, Dave Lemancyzk or another Original Blue Jay.

For today only, please keep the QOTD thread on-topic and use the Hijack Central area to discuss Delgado's contract with the Marlins.

The rosters will be 16 players each; one at each position (no DH), four starting pitchers and four relievers. If time and technology allow, an actual series will be played out using the ingenious WhatIfSports.com site, which was used for the Ultimate Series here on Da Box way back when. This sim does not adjust for era or park effect and requires the GM to select a player's single season to play -- no need to do that now; you can decide between the '21 Ruth and the '27 Ruth later.

All players who played major league baseball dating back to 1881 are eligible (alas, despite Craig's persuasive Josh Gibson post, no sim in the world tries to incorproate Negro League players, nor could we ever know if it was accurate if they did).

After a coin toss, Team Denizen will select the first position player while Team Jobu will select the first pitcher. The two "mini-drafts" can go on simultaneously to speed things up a bit. A few notes:

- Players must fill the position they are most noted for playing; no sticking Rogers Hornsby at 3B. However, the "Ernie Banks" rule is in effect -- if a player was renowned at multiple positions, he can be placed at any one of them. Note, though: if you select Banks in the fifth round, and in the sixth round you take Willie McCovey, Banks is your shortstop by default.

- This will affect your draft strategy significantly as once the other guy takes Bench, you can theoretically wait on a catcher until your final pick unless the guy you want also played other positions, (think Jimmie Foxx), which means he could come off the board elsewhere.

- For the pitching staff, select four starters and four relievers, not eight starters so Roger Clemens is coming out of the 'pen. There is no real setup for LOOGYs or other situational relievers; if you want to grab Eckersly, Gossage, Rivera and Fingers, go for it. Yes, this skews things to the modern game. Get over it. As for the "Eckersly Rule," just be smart and reasonable -- if a pitcher swings between starting and relieving in his career, he's fine for the bullpen as long as the GM selects an appropriate season for him for the potential sim.

For the purposes of this draft, though we may end up playing a sim series, build the best team of players based on career, then pick a single season. Don't draft Mark Fidrych based on his '76 season on the spurious argument that the one season makes him one of the eight best starters of all time.

Any choice once posted is final. Note to potential saboteurs: if you decide to "spoof" one of the GMs and make a choice for them, it's really very simple for us to verify its veracity by checking the IP address the post came from, so don't bother. All other rules questions will be handled in the thread. All rules decisions are final unless appealed to the Cabal.

Let the games ... begin!

QOTD: Do You Feel a Draft? | 245 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 10:51 AM EST (#17143) #
Shrike, Mike is in a meeting (though presumably not of the pink-slip sort mentioned above) and said you can "take it away" when we get started.

Everyone else, please feel free to offer your suggestions, demands, hoots and catcalls to the GMs as we progress.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 10:56 AM EST (#17144) #
I'm expecting Jobu to pick Youppi somewhere in this draft.
Joe - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 11:04 AM EST (#17145) #
http://me.woot.net
Hey Jobu, you may have received a strange authorization request on your MSN instant messenger list. Authorize it.
_alsiem - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 12:21 PM EST (#17146) #
Steve Balboni at DH/1B. Due to his retirement 15 odd years ago, what until the 6th round.

Just a thought,

Tejada 1st overall.
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 12:31 PM EST (#17147) #
Let's end the suspense...

1. RF Babe Ruth
_Fawaz K - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 12:39 PM EST (#17148) #
If the sim doesn't adjust for era, shouldn't SS Alex Rodriguez be an obvious first pick? I imagine Wagner's numbers don't stack up and this position likely has the largest drop-off to number 2.
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 12:46 PM EST (#17149) #
Good point, Fawaz.

However, my understanding of this draft is not to figure out which team will sim the best, but rather which players we'd pick for a "real life" short series, based on their careers. For reasons I discussed yesterday, it's Ruth for me.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 12:54 PM EST (#17150) #
Mike is correct about that ... the sim series would be a fun bonus but it may or may not happen. This thread, in draft form, is for discussion like yesterday's. Mike has raised the bar by picking George Herman. Now Jobu is on the clock (which doesn't actually start until 12:30, another 39 minutes) for the second overall position player and the first overall pitcher.
_Fawaz K - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 12:59 PM EST (#17151) #
Ooooh, I should've figured that out myself. Can't argue with the pick then.
_Jabonoso - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 01:05 PM EST (#17152) #
just for fun:
i propose that after this is done and sealed ( if ever ) in the format of the trivia challenge, we may put together a third team with negroes, non ML latinos and maybe underrated majorleaguers that are not ( won't ever be ) in the HOF for whatever reason their career was shortened, left in limbo, etc...
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 01:07 PM EST (#17153) #
Fascinating idea, Jabonoso. I would find that to be most educational...I don't really have a solid handle on the pre-integration stars of colour.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 01:24 PM EST (#17154) #
AHHHH!!! I didn't know I was actually accepted! I never got an email back so I just slept in! Forgiveness please....

I'll have a pick for you in 5 minutes
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 01:30 PM EST (#17155) #
Yeah he's a jerk but... you know...

1. LF Barry "Covalent" Bonds
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 01:34 PM EST (#17156) #
You also get a pitchers' pick, Jobu.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 01:45 PM EST (#17157) #
*Holding a jersey with pinstripes and the word "Jobu's Jobbers" across the chest*

With their thrid overall pick, Jobu is proud to select

2. P Nolan Ryan
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 01:46 PM EST (#17158) #
I'm standing by as needed.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 01:47 PM EST (#17159) #
I'm pretty certain Mike and I agree about this next pick . . .

2. Honus Wagner
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 01:56 PM EST (#17160) #
My assumption is that this is a serpentine draft, so here's the next pick.

3. Walter Johnson
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 01:57 PM EST (#17161) #
Wow, Nolan Ryan!
Controversy right off the bat -- pun intended -- from Jobu. Honestly, I'm not sure I would've had Ryan in my top eight, probablyw would have gone with Grove first.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 01:58 PM EST (#17162) #
Oh. Serpentine draft. Okay, why not? Everybody knows how that works?As you make a pick, please make sure you end it by noting who is picking next so we're all on the same page. Er, screen.
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 01:58 PM EST (#17163) #
Shrike, the Mike Flanagan to my Jim Beattie, and I are in perfect accord with taking the Flying Dutchman and the Big Train.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:00 PM EST (#17164) #
Just to be clear, Johnson is not the third pick overall, really, he's the second pick in the pitcher half of the draft. So far:

Position Players
1. Ruth (M/S)
2. Bonds(J)
3. Wagner (M/S)

Pitchers
1. Ryan (Jobu)
2. Johnson (M/S)

Jobu on the clock in both halves of the draft.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:03 PM EST (#17165) #
Can't keep it to mundane can we Mick? :)

I plan to be a little on the daring side of things with this draft. Nolan has the all time records for opponent AVG, K's, and K/9 (for non active pitchers) and that impressed me.

So just to clarify, we each get 2 picks when its our turn? A hitter and a pitcher?
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:05 PM EST (#17166) #
PS. I've just been handed the keys to www.bluejayscheerclub.com

So far today has been nothing but awesome.

I shall have my pick ready in a few minutes.
Mike Green - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:10 PM EST (#17167) #
Mick, you might want to put a W. in front of the M/S Johnson pick. Just in case. The Denizens defintely are exhibiting a preference for wily veterans, and I do mean veterans.
Craig B - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:14 PM EST (#17168) #
The Denizens defintely are exhibiting a preference for wily veterans

Better than a preference for vily weterans.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:16 PM EST (#17169) #
Better than a preference for vily weterans.

Ah, Elmer Fudd drops in to the draft!
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:18 PM EST (#17170) #
I'm almost tempted to take Wobin Woberts. Almost.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:19 PM EST (#17171) #
With the third and fourth selections in this years draft, Jobu selects

from Royston, Georgia

3. OF Ty Cobb

and from Lonaconing, Maryland

4. P Lefty Grove
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:22 PM EST (#17172) #
Jobu, are you playing Cobb in centre?
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:23 PM EST (#17173) #
The M/S collective chooses with their third pick

3. P Pedro Martinez
_Jabonoso - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:24 PM EST (#17174) #
Jobu, are you sure that Ty will be willing to play with Bonds, Barry Bonds?
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:25 PM EST (#17175) #
M/S Collective...

4. 2B Rogers Hornsby
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:26 PM EST (#17176) #
In regard to Cobb's position, do I have to pick now? I was gonna see how the draft shakes out to choose his position. Unless you so demand it now.

Will he be willing to play with Bonds? Probably not, but did you see the size of his arms? I think Cobb will fall in line...

PS. So after they pick a hitter, I pick again right?
_Mike Forbes - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:27 PM EST (#17177) #
I would've thought Cy Young would've been the first pitcher taken.. But thats just me.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:30 PM EST (#17178) #
Yes, Jobu, you are on the clock again.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:32 PM EST (#17179) #
Oh, and yes please do decide on a position for Cobb now.

I can assure you it makes a large difference for the already bizarre M/S collective's decision-making process.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:32 PM EST (#17180) #
Jobu, as long as you HAVE a CF, you don't have to decide now where Cobb plays. But I'm guessing you'll have to play him there; he had a wet hot dog for an arm, so you don't want him in RF, and you're pretty well covered in LF.
Mike Green - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:34 PM EST (#17181) #
Hornsby over Morgan, Ruth over Bonds. The Denizens surely like the Roaring Twenties.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:35 PM EST (#17182) #
Alrighty then, I'll put him in CF to appease the masses.

My picks will arrive shortly.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:35 PM EST (#17183) #
It's the jazz, the champagne . . . it's all good.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:36 PM EST (#17184) #
So far, unless a pick is posted as I write this:

Position Players
1. Babe Ruth (M/S)
2. Barry Bonds(J)
3. Honus Wagner (M/S)
5. Ty Cobb (J)
6. Rogers Hornsby (M/S)

Pitchers
1. Nolan Ryan (J)
2. Walter Johnson (M/S)
3. Lefty Grove (J)
4. Pedro Martinez (M/S)

Ruth, Wagner, Hornsby? Wow ...
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:41 PM EST (#17185) #
What, are we not integrated enough yet? I assure you this will change . . .
_Magpie - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:43 PM EST (#17186) #
Hornsby? The M/S collective is going to need a glove at shortstop, I'm thinking.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:44 PM EST (#17187) #
Which would be why we took Wagner, right?
_Jabonoso - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:45 PM EST (#17188) #
will you have DH?
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:46 PM EST (#17189) #
With eight position players, we're somewhat limited. If we had a full roster, Ozzie Smith would bring the leather off the bench. Maybe Mazeroski and Andruw Jones as well.
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:46 PM EST (#17190) #
No DH. We may need to draft Andy "Channel" Messersmith for his hitting ability.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:48 PM EST (#17191) #
It's the jazz, the champagne . . . it's all good.

I got some jazz, and some Beatles....pretty sweet.

With their 5th and 6th choices, Jobu's Ghosts of Past select

From New York City, New York

5. 1B Lou Gehrig

and from Brooklyn, New York

6. P Sandy Koufax
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:50 PM EST (#17192) #
The M/S collective chooses

7. 3B Mike Schmidt
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:51 PM EST (#17193) #
For my next pick I take

7. SS Derek Jeter

and

8. P David Wells

What? It wasn't my turn yet? Ohhh... okay never mind, I'll choose something new next time ;)
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:51 PM EST (#17194) #
The collective requires some further consultation for the choice of pitcher.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:54 PM EST (#17195) #
Hmmmm.... .where am I gonna play Pedro Cerano?
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:54 PM EST (#17196) #
Well, it appears I need to make an executive decision here. And we appear to need a left-handed ace on our staff. Who better than . . .

8. P Randy Johnson
_Donkit R.K. - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:55 PM EST (#17197) #
This is one of my favorite threads ever, btw... shaping up nicely...Good, interesting work by the GMs so far especially concerning the first pitcher taken and, to a lesser extent, the first 2B taken...
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:55 PM EST (#17198) #
The M/S Collective is happy with the Unit. And collectively tips its hat to Jobu's Lou Gehrig, a fine pick.
_Donkit R.K. - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:56 PM EST (#17199) #
Ooh, Mike Schmidt. I'm likin that pick...
_Magpie - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:56 PM EST (#17200) #
Which would be why we took Wagner, right?

Yeah, that would work. (I'm getting confused as to who's on which team.)
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 02:58 PM EST (#17201) #
I think the left side of our infield, consisting of Mike Schmidt and Honus Wagner, is pretty good. :P
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:00 PM EST (#17202) #
Jeter and Wells? Hmmm.
Any choice once posted is final.

I guess if M/S have no objection to you choosing out of turn, they're yours!
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:00 PM EST (#17203) #
Oh, and Jobu? Please go right ahead and re-submit your selections of Wells and Jeter. ;)
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:00 PM EST (#17204) #
I'm having quite the mental debate over my next pick, so I can't zip it out, so I humbly ask what is the time limit? I think I'm gonna need like 8mins on this one if possible.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:01 PM EST (#17205) #
For the record, just to be sportsmanlike, I object. Mildly.
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:02 PM EST (#17206) #
I don't object. Shrike, if we wanna be the best, we gotta beat the best.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:02 PM EST (#17207) #
Hey, you guys are alright in my book ;)

Here, have a dime.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:03 PM EST (#17208) #
Wooo!
_Jabonoso - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:06 PM EST (#17209) #
Mick, can you put the two teams in two rows?
i drool over Jobu's pitching staff: Nolan, Lefty, Sandy, David...
( well after all David could be your LOOGY that beats Babe everytime, after having his secrets disclosed in a beergarden... )
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:07 PM EST (#17210) #
Boomer is not permitted anywhere NEAR the Babe. Not until after the series, ya hear?
_Magpie - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:09 PM EST (#17211) #
You guys should pick someone to manage this group when you're done.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:10 PM EST (#17212) #
With Jobu having made one less pick at this point ...

THE DRAFT SO FAR:
Position Players
1. RF Babe Ruth (M/S)
2. LF Barry Bonds(J)
3. SS Honus Wagner (M/S)
4. CF Ty Cobb (J)
5. 2B Rogers Hornsby (M/S)
6. 1B Lou Gehrig (J)
7. 3B Mike Schmidt (M/S)

Pitchers
1. RHSP Nolan Ryan (J)
2. RHSP Walter Johnson (M/S)
3. LHSP Lefty Grove (J)
4. RHSP Pedro Martinez (M/S)
5. LHSP Sandy Koufax (J)
6. LHSP Randy Johnson (M/S)

THE ROSTERS SO FAR:
Jobu:
C
1B Gerhig
2B
SS
3B
LF Bonds
CF Cobb
RF
SP
SP Ryan
SP Grove
SP Koufax
RP
RP
RP
RP

S&M (heehee)
C
1B
2B Hornsby
SS Wagner
3B Schmidt
LF
CF
RF Ruth
SP W. Johnson
SP R. Johnson
SP Martinez
SP
RP
RP
RP
RP
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:11 PM EST (#17213) #
Okay, still working on the pitcher, but to give y'all something to talk about

With their seventh pick,Jobu's History's Greatest Monsters select

From San Diego, California

7. RF Ted Williams
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:11 PM EST (#17214) #
Hey, we resemble that remark! We have strange long-distance phone bills that we hope never see the light of day.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:12 PM EST (#17215) #
Ted Williams is eligible for RF? Hmph. Now there's a defensive liability.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:14 PM EST (#17216) #
No, no sorry ... commissioner's ruling, Ted Williams is NOT eligible to play RF, even though he certainly could. He was virtually exclusively a LF in Fenway in front of the Monster.

Jobu, please make another selection.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:15 PM EST (#17217) #
Would moving Bonds to RF be considered another selection?
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:16 PM EST (#17218) #
Okay, I call foul on the Ted Williams selection. He played only 169 career games in RF, compared to 1984 in LF, according to B-Ref.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:17 PM EST (#17219) #
Jobu, I will leave that up to your opponents, but my reaction would be that Bonds and Williams are both LF and have been throughout their careers.
_Jabonoso - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:17 PM EST (#17220) #
Pirate Bonds, was not a RF?
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:17 PM EST (#17221) #
It's a tough call. He played RF in '39, and then not at all after that.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:18 PM EST (#17222) #
Barry Bonds has played 1 game in RF in his entire career, and 2476 in LF. Sorry Jobu, that dog won't hunt.
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:18 PM EST (#17223) #
Bonds has played one career game in RF. No way on Barry.
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:19 PM EST (#17224) #
Ted's a legitimately close call, though. He played a whole season in right. I'd be happy either way.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:19 PM EST (#17225) #
Alrighty Mick, that's fair.

I must appologize for my lack of understanding. I learn as I go. I only became a baseball fan two years ago.

So I ask my esteemed competitors, what say you men? May I move Barry to RF?
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:19 PM EST (#17226) #
Bonds played CF exclusively in 1986 (before Van Slyke, I am guessing), and has 171 career games in CF.
_Jabonoso - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:21 PM EST (#17227) #
first and a half season for Barry were in CF...
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:21 PM EST (#17228) #
I would say that you should adopt a different strategy, as much as I admire your quest to field the best offense you can. I can assure you if I had thought the positional requirements were less stringent Ted Williams would have been picked by us quite some time ago.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:22 PM EST (#17229) #
Okay, I propose this before I shut up and move on

Williams in LF
Bonds in CF
and Cobb in RF (i'll take the hit on his weak arm)
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:22 PM EST (#17230) #
In the spirit of this competition, I think we're all obligated to pick a "legit" player at each position. Barry and Ted are both left fielders.

Jobu, you know it, I know it and the American people know it. There are oodles of Hall of Fame right fielders. Go find one.
_Jabonoso - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:22 PM EST (#17231) #
an OF of Ted LF, BB CF and Ty in RF will do marvels
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:22 PM EST (#17232) #
That means using the '39 Williams or the '89 Bonds if we play the sim series. Offensively, not a good plan with a number of viable ALL-TIME HOME RUN LEADER right fielders still on the board.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:24 PM EST (#17233) #
Indeed.

Jobu, decide on your pitcher, take Hank Aaron or whomever in RF, and let's continue.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:24 PM EST (#17234) #
Yeah, you know you guys are right. I didn't realize what a storm I was creating. I was just planning on taking Teddy and didn't know of his need for LF. My fault for not reading the rules. I humbly ask for some more time to pick someone new and re-compose my game plan.
_Jabonoso - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:24 PM EST (#17235) #
well, i guess a RH, RF, will be better.
and having some infielders will help too ( not that there will be demand for them )
Mike Green - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:26 PM EST (#17236) #
Now, Bonds as a centerfielder would be a different argument altogether.

Shrike and Mike sounds like the name of a hallucinogenic candy. One sweet pill, one trippy. Add in the jazz and champagne, and they'll be having one fine party after the series.
_Magpie - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:26 PM EST (#17237) #
The Barry Bonds who played CF for the Pirates is not the Bonds you want.

You want the guy who played LF for the Giants.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:28 PM EST (#17238) #
"Shrike & Mike ... your S&M entry into the world of hallucinogenic sadomasochism."

The uniform logo possibilities are literally unimaginable.
_Jabonoso - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:29 PM EST (#17239) #
it is a season guy you are drafting?
do you have to specify which season you are thinking about ?
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:36 PM EST (#17240) #
At least we get to have a peregrine falcon on our jersey. That's cool!
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:36 PM EST (#17241) #
Quick question, sorry for the delay folks

is there some kind of website that will tell someone as easily confused as me what specific OF spot a certain player played in his career?
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:37 PM EST (#17242) #
I mean, will Jobu's team have a mop prominently featured?

Okay, first good dig for our side. I must be friends with Gary Payton.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:37 PM EST (#17243) #
jabonoso, no, also in the rules above-- IF we play a sim series, then you have to pick a season because the WhatIfSports.com process requires it. The draft itself is about the best players, so it'd be a real reach to move somone's position (the example above is Hornsby to 3B where he played 192 of 2164 games). But if we DO play that way, then we'd at least have to, for instance, play the sim series using the season where Bonds actually was a CF.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:37 PM EST (#17244) #
Baseball Reference. There should be a link from this site. Go to the sidebar.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:38 PM EST (#17245) #
http://www.baseball-reference.com/
_Nolan - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:39 PM EST (#17246) #
http://www.retrosheet.org/
I looked around a bit, Jobu, because I wanted to find out what position Musial played and I found that retrosheet does a breakdown of specific position a player played...COMN
_Nolan - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:41 PM EST (#17247) #
Shrike, I looked on BAseball Reference's site and found that they don't provide specifics for older players such as Williams and Musial...
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:42 PM EST (#17248) #
No, they do. Look at the far right column under "Fielding."
_Jabonoso - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:43 PM EST (#17249) #
Jobu:
go with Aaron, Ty will love to have such a party!
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:43 PM EST (#17250) #
I've wasted enough of everyone's time, my appologies. No fancy stuff this round lets get on with it!

7. RF Hank Aaron

8. SP Roger Clemens
_Nolan - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:44 PM EST (#17251) #
Jobu, if you use my link, click on the "players" link right under "boxscores" and that will let you look up players alphabetically...(the specific breakdown of how many games played at which position is on the far right of the feilding statistics section...)
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:44 PM EST (#17252) #
go with Aaron, Ty will love to have such a party!

ha ha ha.... Take that Tommy Lee Jones
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:45 PM EST (#17253) #
The M/S Collective will take the following:

9. C Johnny Bench

10. SP Mordecai "Three Finger" Brown
_Nolan - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:46 PM EST (#17254) #
Mike D., you are totally right...I missed that...which is ironic as I saw it on retrosheet and that is set up in exactly the same manner...oh well
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:47 PM EST (#17255) #
That should read "8" and "9." Apologies.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:48 PM EST (#17256) #
Jobu, it might've taken you four hours, but Aaron and Clemens --yeah, they're OK.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:53 PM EST (#17257) #
Positional Notes:

All eight SP slots have been filled. No other SP may be selected without a reasonable argument for bullpen placement.

Jobu's OF is now full.

Everything else is fair game.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:53 PM EST (#17258) #
You're up again, Jobu. Please don't take another four hours. ;)
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 03:59 PM EST (#17259) #
I'd like to thank my new assistant GM Rob who came online to lend a hand.

We are proud to announce into the family

9. 2B Jackie Robinson

10. RP Dennis Eckersley
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:00 PM EST (#17260) #
Since I don't foresee any conflict with the following selections, given that Jobu's picks so far have filled these positions, I'll announce the rest of our position players.

LF Ted Williams

CF Mickey Mantle

1B Mark McGwire
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:00 PM EST (#17261) #
Nice closer in Eck. Another tip of the cap from the S&M Collective.
_Rob - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:01 PM EST (#17262) #
Bold begone!

First time I've said that, I think.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:01 PM EST (#17263) #
You guys love to tip your caps and type in bold.

I like that.

Have another dime.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:01 PM EST (#17264) #
Not exactly conflicts, but the draft could fall in such a way that ... oh, never mind, Jobu why don't you pick the rest of your positional players, and S/M, you pick your first relief pitcher. Then you can alternate relievers until we're done.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:02 PM EST (#17265) #
I can't believe he almost didn't take almighty Henry.
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:03 PM EST (#17266) #
Jobu, you can select your catcher, shortstop and third baseman at your leisure.
Mike Green - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:08 PM EST (#17267) #
McGwire over Foxx? The Shrikeymike Denizens dig something different out of their candy box.

This, by the way, is the definition of "kibitz".
_Ryan Day - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:08 PM EST (#17268) #
Wow. Two outfields and no one took Willie Mays?
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:10 PM EST (#17269) #
On a side note.... this is the most fun I've had all week. Thanks guys.

NFH: I'm sorry for the delay in picking your godfather. You can be equipment manager if you like.
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:10 PM EST (#17270) #
Very tough call. Both halves of the M/S Collective gave a slight, slight edge to Mantle in his prime.

We select

RP Mariano Rivera

with our next pitcher selection.
_Rob - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:10 PM EST (#17271) #
The Keith Law to Jobu's J.P. is proud to welcome the following players to Jobu's History's Greatest Monsters:

Ivan Rodriguez, C
Alex Rodriguez, SS
Brooks Robinson, 3B

I almost typed Brooks Rodriguez there.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:11 PM EST (#17272) #
The Collective did agonize--pun intended!--in the hard choices of Mantle vs. Mays, and McGwire vs. Foxx.
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:13 PM EST (#17273) #
OK, Rob and Jobu get a reliever pick now. Three rounds to go.
_S.Bialo - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:14 PM EST (#17274) #
The Robobu side went hardcore for current-day players... but no Brett or Boggs at 3B? Interesting.
_Rob - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:19 PM EST (#17275) #
no Brett or Boggs at 3B? Interesting.

I liked Brooks' defense (as did many), and Jobu agreed. Or I hope he did. :)
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:21 PM EST (#17276) #
With there.... oh I dunno... later pick, History's Greatest Monsters select

From Steubenville, OH

RP Rollie Fingers
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:27 PM EST (#17277) #
We'll counter with the always-deceptive

RP Hoyt Wilhelm
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:28 PM EST (#17278) #
The S&M Collective happily select

RP Hoyt Wilhelm
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:28 PM EST (#17279) #
In stereo, no less. Heh.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:29 PM EST (#17280) #
Clearly divergent draft strategies as Jorobu takes one Fingers while Shrike and Mike take "Three Fingers."

Does this make S&M thrice as good? What can Brown do for you??
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:31 PM EST (#17281) #
Clearly divergent draft strategies as Jorobu takes one Fingers while Shrike and Mike take "Three Fingers."

It's all about the 'stache.....
_Rob - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:33 PM EST (#17282) #
Take a gander at our next selection:

RP Richard Michael Gossage
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:34 PM EST (#17283) #
I'll defer to Shrike for our next pick.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:35 PM EST (#17284) #
Clever pun of the draft award to Rob (pending draft's completion).
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:37 PM EST (#17285) #
Two more RP to Jobu and one more to MShrike ... and Kerry Ligtneberg is STILL on the board!
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:38 PM EST (#17286) #
Other way around, Mick...we're shy 2 RP's, Jobu one.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:41 PM EST (#17287) #
Mike ... you have Rivera, Wilhelm and Gossage, right? That's three of your four. Jorobu has Eck and Fingers, presumably building an all-A's bullpen. Am I missing something?
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:42 PM EST (#17288) #
Rob's working for me now Mick. He made that choice on behalf of History's Greatest Monsters. (Gossage that is).
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:44 PM EST (#17289) #
Whoops, OK. That's good for you. Gossage is the best one-inning RP in the history of the game. (IMNSHO)
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:44 PM EST (#17290) #
I'll have the next pick up in a minute.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:47 PM EST (#17291) #
I propose after the selection of players, we also have a round of votes for manager, mascot, and ballpark.

any interested?
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:51 PM EST (#17292) #
By votes, I ment GM picks....
_Rob - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:51 PM EST (#17293) #
Does this sim program include a ballpark? A manager and mascot would be fun picks, but the ballpark might have an effect on the games.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:55 PM EST (#17294) #
The S&M Collective selects

RP Billy Wagner
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:56 PM EST (#17295) #
Gotta have that tough lefty for Cobb, Bonds and Gehrig.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 04:59 PM EST (#17296) #
yes, the sim allows you to pick the home field, just about any ballpark in history. during the ultimate series, we had to move the Jays games from the old stadium to the Dome because of snow.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:01 PM EST (#17297) #
It was a very tuft decision, but finally we decided "why not just go with the guy who can get everyone out?"

History's Greatest Monsters are proud to select

From Montreal, PQ

RP Eric Gagne
_Geoff North - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:08 PM EST (#17298) #
Well, the official draft isn't over yet, but I have to leave for work in a minute so I don't have time to wait. I thought it would be fun to come up with a team from the leftover players... you can make a pretty good one... Hall of Famers all round... except for the relief pitchers. This favors modern day relief aces. All of them have some impressive single seasons to play with though. Apologies if I have any duplicates... I lightly scanned the thread to check for them and I might have missed one or two.

C Mike Piazza
1B Jimmie Foxx
2B Joe Morgan
SS Ernie Banks
3B Harmon Killebrew
LF Frank Robinson
CF Willie Mays
RF Stan Musial
SP Greg Maddux
SP Cy Young
SP Tom Seaver
SP Christy Mathewson
RP Dan Quisenberry
RP Bruce Sutter
RP Robb Nenn
RP Tom Henke
_Matthew E - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:10 PM EST (#17299) #
I was doing the same thing except I had Berra, Ripken, Brett, Rickey Henderson (over Musial), Bob Gibson (over Mathewson) and Sparky Lyle (over Nen).
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:11 PM EST (#17300) #
There are two selections left, by my count, but in the meantime (since I am also about to get on the road) ...
_Jorobus Squad - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:12 PM EST (#17301) #
C Ivan Rodriguez
1B Lou Gehrig
2B Jackie Robinson
SS Alex Rodriguez
3B Brooks Robinson
LF Barry Bonds
CF Ty Cobb
RF Hank "Named for Me" Aaron
SP Nolan Ryan
SP Lefty Grove
SP Sandy Koufax
SP Roger Clemens
RP Dennis Eckersley
RP Rollie Fingers
RP Goose Gossage
RP Eric Gagne

My mistake, just one selection left...
_Team Shrike & M - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:12 PM EST (#17302) #
Shrike & Mike
C Johnny Bench
1B Mark McGwire
2B Rogers Hornsby
SS Honus Wagner
3B Mike Schmidt
LF Ted Williams
CF Mickey Mantle
RF Babe Ruth
SP Walter Johnson
SP Randy Johnson
SP Pedro Martinez
SP Mordecai Brown
RP Mariano Rivera
RP Hoyt Wilhelm
RP Billy Wagner
RP TBD
_Jim - TBG - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:12 PM EST (#17303) #
http://www.torontobaseballguys.com
There's an all-time pitcher out there who would qualify for this little exercise. That's assuming the Co-GMs can get on the same paige.
_Nolan - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:13 PM EST (#17304) #
I'm kind of shocked that no one picked Bob Feller, not even the leftovers team.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:16 PM EST (#17305) #
The Collective are deliberating over their last selection. One moment please . . .
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:23 PM EST (#17306) #
Well, if Mike promises to not tie me up and whip me for this pick, the Collective will choose

RP John Wetteland

In large part because I want some Expos content.

Alternatively, I'll make the orthodox choice and select

RP Bruce Sutter

He gets the nod over Quiz because of his stellar 1977 season.
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:24 PM EST (#17307) #
I prefer Sutter, but I'm fine with Wetteland.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:26 PM EST (#17308) #
Wetteland it is then. We have at least two players in the Short Series who played for one of my all-time favourite teams, the 1994 Montreal Expos. Sweet!
_benum - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:27 PM EST (#17309) #
I'd pick Team Shrike & Mike.
The Ruth/Mantle/Williams outfield with the Law firm of Martinez, Johnson and Johnson starting a series in the rotation is too much.
(not to mention Ryan's wildness with all of those disciplined hitters)
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:28 PM EST (#17310) #
Well, now the fun really begins. We have to select player-seasons to prepare for the sim.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:29 PM EST (#17311) #
Oh, and we claim Youppi! as our mascot.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:30 PM EST (#17312) #
Hey! You guys just picked, then the pick goes back to us, and with it we select Youppi! :)
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:32 PM EST (#17313) #
What do you say, Shrike? The Phanatic or B.J.?
_Nolan - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:34 PM EST (#17314) #
Personally, I think I like Jorobu's line-up a little better as they have only one relatively easy out (Robinson) and no one really prone to K's.

On the other side, Team Shrike and Mike have some huge power but a few hitters who are very susceptable to strikeouts- Mantle, McGwire, and Schmidt
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:35 PM EST (#17315) #
Everyone's prone to strikeouts against our Big Three. And, I suppose, against their Big Three.
_Rob - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:35 PM EST (#17316) #

See that? He's dancing because he gets to play for us! :)

What do you say, Shrike? The Phanatic or B.J.?

Please, please, please pick BJ Birdy! The dirty jokes available with "Team S&M" are endless!
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:36 PM EST (#17317) #
Who do Shrike and Mike take as their mascot?
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:37 PM EST (#17318) #
I claim exclusive rights to the Expos mascot. It's only fair.

To take the other position from Nolan's argument--I think it's more likely that Jobu's pitching, mainly in the relief corps, is stronger. I don't think his lineup is as good.
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:38 PM EST (#17319) #
Not the Pirate Parrot. Neither Mr. Met nor his brother, Mr. Red. Not the Oriole Bird (after he choked me in Camden Yards for wearing a Jays cap). Not Bernie Brewer.

Certainly not Freddy, the creepy old guy at Yankee Stadium.
Mike Green - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:39 PM EST (#17320) #
Geoff North and Matthew E's team looks pretty good. I'd go with Berra over Piazza, Brett over Killebrew and Lyle over Nenn for sure. Rickey in left over Musial works for me with Robby in right. I'd stick with Matthewson over Gibson.

Choosing the third best shortstop is desperate work. Ripken, Banks, Yount, Trammell. I might go for Arky Vaughan.

Your lineup becomes Henderson, Morgan, Mays, Foxx, Brett, Robby, Berra, Vaughan and pitcher. That lineup will play.
_Rob - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:43 PM EST (#17321) #
Question: If we use Hank Aaron 1971, can he still be a RF? He played 70 games at 1B, 59 in right that year.
_benum - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:45 PM EST (#17322) #
If I was building a TEAM, I'd probably take Shrike and Mike with these changes (from the players still available):

C Johnny Bench
1B Mark McGwire
2B Rogers Hornsby --> Joe Morgan
SS Honus Wagner
3B Mike Schmidt
LF Ted Williams --> Rickey Henderson
CF Mickey Mantle
RF Babe Ruth

You Defense would be much better and the top of your lineup could be:

Henderson
Morgan
Mantle
Ruth
McGwire
Schmidt
Bench
Wagner


Sweet Jebus that would be a team!
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:48 PM EST (#17323) #
BTW: Assuming Mick figure out mascot-gate, here's what we have so far

1. Youppi! (J/R)
2. BJ or Phanatic (s/m)
3. Jack Bauer, Manager (J/R)
4. ?? (s/m)
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:50 PM EST (#17324) #
I vote Terrence Mann for manager.

"People will come, Ray. People will most definitely come."
_Ryan C - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:52 PM EST (#17325) #
Not the Pirate Parrot. Neither Mr. Met nor his brother, Mr. Red. Not the Oriole Bird (after he choked me in Camden Yards for wearing a Jays cap). Not Bernie Brewer.

Two words: Rally. Monkey.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:54 PM EST (#17326) #
Agreed on the manager. James Earl Jones can be on my team any day.

Now, if we can only rescue Youppi! from those heathens, we're all set. Otherwise, we'll have to sic the Phanatic on them.
_Rob - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:57 PM EST (#17327) #
Jack Bauer, Manager

TELL ME WHERE THE LINEUP CARD IS!
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:57 PM EST (#17328) #
so to update

(mascot-gate)
3. Jack Bauer (j/r)
4. Terrance Mann (s/m)
5. 94 Skydome (j/r)
6. ??
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 05:58 PM EST (#17329) #
Wow, I'd sure give him the location of the lineup card in that situation....

What a team motivator
Craig B - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 06:35 PM EST (#17330) #
Here's my "leftovers" team.

C Campanella
1B Foxx
2B Morgan
SS Ripken
3B Mathews
LF Henderson
CF Mays
RF F Robinson
SP Maddux
SP GC Alexander
SP D Dean
SP Seaver
RP Quisenberry
RP Sutter
RP Henke
RP Smoltz

For the real leftovers team, incorporating all players over all time, I'd swap Gibson for Campy, Charleston for Foxx, Paige for Smoltz, and Pop Lloyd for Ripken.
_Jabonoso - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 06:39 PM EST (#17331) #
Thats a good question, how are you going to line up your teams?
Amazing that Mays and Bob Gibson, by far the most dominant pitcher in his time, are out. Well as someone said, we can wait with team 3 and 4 and the preintegration colored stars to beat them down!
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 06:42 PM EST (#17332) #
I really wanted Bob Gibson. Shrike really wanted Clemens. The Collective compromised on our mutual #2 guy on the board, Mordecai Brown.
Mike D - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 06:43 PM EST (#17333) #
And good call, Craig, in putting Henke on your leftover squad. It's remarkable how well the Terminator's numbers hold up over time.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 06:46 PM EST (#17334) #
Mordecai Brown was a fine compromise indeed. Don't get me wrong, I hated to leave Bob Gibson off the squad.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 06:46 PM EST (#17335) #
And Christy Mathewson, for that matter. One of my all-time favourites.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 06:47 PM EST (#17336) #
Gibson and Henke were both debated in our camp as well. There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 06:48 PM EST (#17337) #
For the real leftovers team, incorporating all players over all time, I'd swap Gibson for Campy, Charleston for Foxx, Paige for Smoltz, and Pop Lloyd for Ripken.

I'd consider going one better than that and replace Eddie Matthews with the great Ray Dandridge.

Pretty good picks overall. I'm impressed by Jobu's pick. Given his status as resident court jester I was half-expecting this:

4. OF Rolando Roomes

5. RP De Wayne Buice

That being said, Hornsby over Joe Morgan is insane, though it may make sense from a sim perspective. Stats from the monochromatic era just don't impress me that much, I guess.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 06:53 PM EST (#17338) #
Since Shrike & Mike are have gone off the board to select a fictional novelist formerly known as Darth Vader as team manager, they are penalized five yards and loss of down, while being assigned a "real" manager instead ... the immortal Morris Buttermaker.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 06:55 PM EST (#17339) #
It may comfort you to know, Mike, that I spoke up for Joe Morgan. But I can't show you sensitive Collective documents because you aren't cleared for them, and you have not yet been assimilated.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 06:57 PM EST (#17340) #
It may comfort you to know, Mike, that I spoke up for Joe Morgan. But I can't show you sensitive Collective documents because you aren't cleared for them, and you have not yet been assimilated.

Good to know. I was afraid you were lobbying for your 2B pick to be Rennie Stennett. :)
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 07:01 PM EST (#17341) #
Since Shrike & Mike are have gone off the board to select a fictional novelist formerly known as Darth Vader as team manager

So, Jack Bauer's still cool right?
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 07:03 PM EST (#17342) #
Dude's packin'. I got no quarrel.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 07:05 PM EST (#17343) #
Sweet.... Cobb, Bonds, Bauer

should a bench brawl break out, I love our chances.
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 07:05 PM EST (#17344) #
Darth Vader could wipe the floor with Jack Bauer, you scurvy cur!
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 07:08 PM EST (#17345) #
"should" a brawl break out?

You think Cobb wouldn't go spikes up into 2B against Jackie Robinson? Or Pedro wouldn't throw behind Gehrig's head?

You might win the brawl, but I'm thinkin' you're also most likely gonna START it.
_Rob - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 07:11 PM EST (#17346) #
Team Robobu can reveal the secret documents used, but all you'll see is furious typing back and forth, with many a spelling error. I can't even read half of it. Who's "rioger clemmend", anyway?

Jobu gets full credit for Jackie Robinson, but both of us completely forgot about Moe Jorgan.

Preliminary lineup, which Mr. Bauer can change if he wants:
CF Cobb (1911)
1B Gehrig (1927)
LF Bonds (2004)
RF Aaron *
SS A-Rod (2000)
2B J.Robinson (1949)
C Pudge (2000)
3B B.Robinson (1064)

* Named For Short-Lived 1960s Sitcom will be from 1971 if he qualifies at RF for that year.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 07:15 PM EST (#17347) #
You think Cobb wouldn't go spikes up into 2B against Jackie Robinson?

Well I would hope not, cuse the who would be covering CF??

Looks like blood is starting to boil, we should hire Uncle Jesse as our trainer and Jackie Chan as our bench coach. Undefeatable.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 07:16 PM EST (#17348) #
Correction: "because then who would be ...."
_Ryan Lind - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 07:23 PM EST (#17349) #
The Who would be in Center Field??!!

Sweet! I'm there!
_Rob - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 07:29 PM EST (#17350) #
The Who would be in Center Field??!!

Sweet! I'm there!


Well, it's better than putting Mary-Anne out there -- she has terrible hands and I'd rather see someone from My Generation play the outfield. If you want to make the game, you better hurry up. The Magic Bus to the stadium is leaving soon Out In The Street and there isn't Too Much Of Anything left, including bus tickets and places to sit.
_Nigel - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 07:33 PM EST (#17351) #
Moffat - I understand the scepticism about stats from his era, but Hornsby did put up a career OPS+ of 175 versus Morgan's career OPS+ of 136. Some of Hornsby's stats are pretty mind blowing by any standard.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 07:48 PM EST (#17352) #
Moffat - I understand the scepticism about stats from his era, but Hornsby did put up a career OPS+ of 175 versus Morgan's career OPS+ of 136.

There's also a rather massive difference in defensive ability.
_Pete Warren - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 07:56 PM EST (#17353) #
Troy Percival has signed a two year deal with the Detroit Tigers according to Sportsnet.ca
_Shrike - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 07:57 PM EST (#17354) #
Okay, one-half of the Collective has been able to do some preliminary work on the player-seasons we'd put forward for the sim. There are some interesting choices to be made so I welcome discussion!

Shrike & Mike
C Johnny Bench 1970
1B Mark McGwire 1998
2B Rogers Hornsby 1924 or 1922
SS Honus Wagner 1908
3B Mike Schmidt 1981* or 1980
LF Ted Williams 1941
CF Mickey Mantle 1956 or 1957
RF Babe Ruth 1920, 1921 or 1927
SP Walter Johnson 1913
SP Randy Johnson 1997 or 2002
SP Pedro Martinez 2000
SP Mordecai Brown 1906
RP Mariano Rivera 2003
RP Hoyt Wilhelm 1967
RP Billy Wagner 1999
RP John Wetteland 1993

*=strike-shortened season
_AWeb - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 08:09 PM EST (#17355) #
For Hornsby, I would take 1925. Since the simulator doesn't take era into account, that was probably his best offensive year, with his second highest OBP and highest slugging.

For Schimdt, it's gotta' be 1981. Best rate stats in almost all categories of his career, and good fielding numbers too.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 08:09 PM EST (#17356) #
We're still working on ours, but here's what we got so far

koufax 65
grove 30
clem 97
gag 03

Cobb 1911,
Gehrig 1927,
Bonds 2004,
Aaron TBD,
A-Rod 2000,
J.Robinson 1949,
Pudge 2000,
B.Robinson 1964

If anyone wants to sugest carrer years for players not yet mentioned, you're more than welcome too.
_Mick - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 08:15 PM EST (#17357) #
Rob, I applaud your guts in choosing Brooks Robinson's 1064 season. He was playing for the Crusader at the time, right?
_Jabonoso - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 08:39 PM EST (#17358) #
make Clemens play in a Blue jay uniform!
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 09:01 PM EST (#17359) #
Well, with Bonds, Cobb and Clemens we could have gone for an all-jerk squad but I quickly gave up on that idea with the thought of a Bonds, Cobb, Mondesi outfield.
_Willy - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 09:06 PM EST (#17360) #
For mascot-doesn't anybody remember the San Diego Chicken?! The guy was great (and a Canadian too, I think: in fact, he may be on the list of Great Canadians for all I know.) And the Philly Phanatic is miles better than poor old BJ Birdie, much as I have a soft spot for him.
_Jobu - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 09:18 PM EST (#17361) #
I remember that chicken. Scared the hell out of me.

How come mascots dont bother players anymore nowadays?
_Fawaz K - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 09:19 PM EST (#17362) #
Because the players are learning to fight back (see: Simon, Randall)
_Rob - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 10:09 PM EST (#17363) #
Rob, I applaud your guts in choosing Brooks Robinson's 1064 season. He was playing for the Crusader at the time, right?

Damn those typos...
Well, I either meant the 1964 season or I replaced Brooks at the last second with the Thane of Cawdor.
_S.Bialo - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 10:16 PM EST (#17364) #
Guys, this thread was (is) a blast to read. I'll take roughly 90% of the credit for my coining of the team name 'Robobu'.

And.. yeah. Where's Warren Spahn?
Craig B - Wednesday, November 17 2004 @ 10:47 PM EST (#17365) #
I think my leftvoers team would stand a good chance against both of yours.

Batting Order:

Henderson '90
Morgan '75
Foxx '32
Mays '55
FRobby '66
Mathews '54
Campy '53
Ripken '91

Pitchers

Maddux '95
Alexander '15
Dean '34
Seaver '71
Quiz '83
Sutter '77
Henke '89
Smoltz '03
_Shrike - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 12:49 AM EST (#17366) #
I wouldn't be surprised in the least if that were true, Craig.
_Magpie - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 05:30 AM EST (#17367) #
I was going to submit a Leftovers Team, but I went away for hours and hours and when I get back, Craig gone and done it and used half my guys, including My Whole Damn Outfield.

But do we feel discouraged? We do not think we do. We make do with what's left.

Berra, c (1950)
Greenberg, 1b (1937. Or 1938, who cares)
Robinson, 2b (1949)
Brett, 3b (1985. Or 1980, that works too)
Vaughan, ss (1935)
Musial, lf (1948)
DiMaggio, cf (1937. Or 1941)
Clemente, rf (1967)

Mathewson, sp (1905 and I'll take those three WS shutouts too)
Marichal, sp (1966. He went 25-6 and got ZERO Cy Young votes. That's hard to do, but he pulled the same trick when he went 25-8 and 26-9.)
Carlton, sp (1972)
Ford, sp (1961)
Lyle, rp (1977. Or 1973)
Radatz, rp (1963)
Perranoski, rp (1963)
Paige, rp (1948)

Obviously, we could all find room for Oscar Charleston and Josh Gibson... ol' Satch was still good enough in 1948 to carry that torch.

Batting order?

Jackie leads off... Brett hits second...Musial third...Greenberg fourth...Joe D...Vaughan...Clemente...Berra...

I guess. Maybe you flip-flop Joltin' Joe and Stan the Man if there's a LH on the mound.
Mike Green - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 08:34 AM EST (#17368) #
Mathews '54
Campy '53
Ripken '91


Craig, this is what happens you don't drink a coffee before reading. I'm thinking. Campy Campaneris? In this crowd? In 1953, he probably hadn't made it out of primary school? Then, out of that dark, dark place, my mind emerged...

Your team does bear a striking similarity with the one I suggested earlier. Matthews vs. Brett is an interesting one. Brett's 1980 is a 202 OPS+ wherease Matthews' 1953 is a 171. It's easy also to argue that Brett was a better player over his career.

Campaneris (er Campanella) was a better player at his peak than Yogi. No question. But, if you're going to be faithful to the spirit of the game and pick the best available career player, you've got to choose Yogi.
_Jabonoso - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 09:34 AM EST (#17369) #
Two leftovers teams and still no Bob Gibson or Warren Spahn. Maybe there is a chance for a third leftovers team.
regarding the sim game, does it allow to have a "whoever" monster season and top your regular HOF that had five or seven very good seasons just below that one monster season?
Whenever ready, we can work on the all latino stars, the all preintegration all stars, and something Barry Bonds and Ty Cob would enjoy: an all colored team vs all white team...
_Jabonoso - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 09:37 AM EST (#17370) #
When Pedro won his first Cy , he went down to Dominicana and gave it to Marichal ( then sports minister ) Everyone new he deserved it but it was easy for minorities even in the sixties...
_Jabonoso - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 09:38 AM EST (#17371) #
" it was NOT easy.."
_Jobu - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 10:18 AM EST (#17372) #
I'll thank you not to put my starting 2B in your "leftover" team Mr. Magpie ;)
_Nolan - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 03:43 PM EST (#17373) #
Here's my leftover, leftover, leftover team:

C Mike Piazza (1997)
1B Jeff Bagwell (1994)
2B Nap Lajoie (1901)
3B Wade Boggs (1987)
SS Alex Rodriguez (2000)
LF Joe Jackson (1911)
CF Al Simmons (1930)
RF Harry Heilmann (1923)

SP Cy Young (1901)
SP Bob Feller (1946)
SP Warren Spahn (1953)
SP Addie Joss (1908)
RP John Franco (1988)
RP Trevor Hoffman (1998)
RP Lee Smith (1983)
RP Kent Tekulve (1978)

Lineup:

1. Lajoie
2. Boggs
3. Simmons
4. Bagwell
5. Jackson
6. Piazza
7. Heilmanm
8. Rodriguez
_Jobu - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 03:59 PM EST (#17374) #
And I'll thank you, Mr. Nolan, for not putting my starting shortstop in you "leftover" team....

Common, two in a row? What is this? Amateur night?
_Jabonoso - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:02 PM EST (#17375) #
It is a good rotation Nolan. Still i do not understand how it is no good for anybody an ERA+ of 258 in 1968, no one likes Bob Gibson and his high rate of complete games
Craig B - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:05 PM EST (#17376) #
But, if you're going to be faithful to the spirit of the game and pick the best available career player, you've got to choose Yogi.

I thought we were asking who the best player was. Campanella was better than Berra. Not "better at his peak", better throughout his career. He got unfairly squeezed by institutional racism at one end and paralysis at the other, but that doesn't make him not better.

The difference between Berra and Campanella was about 500 games caught, about three and a half seasons. I don't see where you get the bright-line test from that eliminates Campy and keeps the Yog.
_Magpie - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:06 PM EST (#17377) #
My bad, Hillbilly Zombie. I made a last second switch from Eddie Collins, thinking that you guys had taken Hornsby and Morgan. (Of course Craig took Morgan as his First Leftover!)

Nolan is welcome to Nap Lajoie; I'll go back to the Cocky One, 1912 vintage should do (although when your guy had .340 seasons in four different decades, there's a LOT to choose from!)
Craig B - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:06 PM EST (#17378) #
ol' Satch was still good enough in 1948 to carry that torch

I thought long and hard about putting in Paige's 1948, a very very fine relief season.
Mike Green - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:17 PM EST (#17379) #
Craig, Campy had 3 really great seasons, with off-ones in between. Yogi was not quite as good, but put 10 of 'em in a row together.

If you really do believe that Campy was the better catcher over his career, and you can make the case, I guess, then it is a fair pick.
_Magpie - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:17 PM EST (#17380) #
I thought long and hard about putting in Paige's 1948, a very very fine relief season.

Indeed he was, although I bet he was even better in 1933...

But what can you do? Sometimes it seems to me to be a great human tragedy that Oscar Charleston isn't as famous as Ty Cobb. Charleston was probably a better player.

But I remember Buck O'Neal talking about this once...he didn't see anything tragic about his life. Not a bit. He was a baseball player, he played real games, for real championships and loved every minute.

I wish I had that kind of heart.
_Nolan - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:21 PM EST (#17381) #
1. Sorry Jobu, my eyesight is not as good as it used to be...anyways, I don't want a girly slapper on my team, I'll take Ernie "Lets Play Two" Banks at SS instead

2. Jabonoso: I assumed Gibso was taken...hmmmm, I think Feller is out now- he had some great seasons, but not as good as the others...

So, revision time:

Here's my leftover, leftover, leftover team:

C Mike Piazza (1997)
1B Jeff Bagwell (1994)
2B Nap Lajoie (1901)
3B Wade Boggs (1987)
SS Ernie Banks (1958)
LF Joe Jackson (1911)
CF Al Simmons (1930)
RF Harry Heilmann (1923)

SP Cy Young (1901)
SP Bob Gibson (1968)
SP Warren Spahn (1953)
SP Addie Joss (1908)
RP John Franco (1988)
RP Trevor Hoffman (1998)
RP Lee Smith (1983)
RP Kent Tekulve (1978)

Lineup:

1. Lajoie
2. Boggs
3. Simmons
4. Bagwell
5. Jackson
6. Piazza
7. Heilmanm
8. Banks
_Jabonoso - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:22 PM EST (#17382) #
Should we start with pre integration all star team?
C Gibson ( some votes for Mackey and or Santup )
1st Buck Leonard ( but Ben Taylor rises his hand )( Mules Sutter and his 888 slg % says OK go ahead...)( Oscar Charleston coughes and says ok i'm athletic enough to roam the OF )
2b a good place to have Martin Dihigo the one that could be first in homers batting average and era in the same season
ss Willie Wells (could he be related to VDub, he was from texas also )
3b Mamerto Dandrige ( wonder how his favorite nickname got lost )and maybe Monte Irvin ( who also played OF.
OF Wild Bill Wright, Turke Sterness, Cool Papa and do not overlook Cristobal Torrente ( a cuban slugger that played once in 21 against Ruth: after 2 homers, Ruth took the mound to pitch him, he got a triple down the line, Ruth declared to the press later if we can get Torrente and pitcher Jose Mendez to play with us in the MLs we will have the secure the championship by the end of July and can go fishing...)
SP Rube and Willi Foster, Smokey Joe, bullet Rogan, Leon Day, Martin Dihigo and Jose Mendez, ok ok Satchel Paige...
Oh, there were no that ssissy thing of RPs...
And of course there is enough material for two or three teams more.
_Nolan - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:26 PM EST (#17383) #
Nolan is welcome to Nap Lajoie; I'll go back to the Cocky One, 1912 vintage should do

I thought about Collins, as well as Gehringer and Alomar, but I couldn't ignore an +OPS of 200, even if it was 1901...

It was also a difficult call in the OF...I still wonder if Speaker or even Griffey Jr. should have beat Simmons
_Magpie - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:28 PM EST (#17384) #
I thought Martin Dihigo was mainly an outfielder.

And of course there is enough material for two or three teams more.

That's two or three teams of Hall of Fame quality players. Easy.
_Jabonoso - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:34 PM EST (#17385) #
Martin broke up as an infielder. His two most liked positions to play were second and centerfield. Excellent fielder all around. Could play all nine positions and pitch. In the Negro league hall of fame is refered as the best afro american player ever, in the Cuban HOF the best cuban player ever...
Quite something
_Magpie - Thursday, November 18 2004 @ 04:51 PM EST (#17386) #
Ruth declared to the press later if we can get Torrente and pitcher Jose Mendez to play with us in the MLs we will have the secure the championship by the end of July and can go fishing...

That's almost exactly what Dizzy Dean said about Satchel Paige:

"If Satch (Paige) and I were pitching on the same team, we would cinch the pennant by July fourth and go fishing until World Series time."

It was probably a cliche of the time!
_Geoff North - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 12:15 AM EST (#17387) #
Well, I did originally take a lot of Craig, Nolan and Magpie's leftovers in my leftover team... but there's no real rules regarding leftovers.

With regards to Bobs Feller and Gibson... both great pitchers, Gibson especially has some great single seasons. I tried for overall career greatness more than single seasons, in keeping with the spirit of the original question. In that respect, I think Mathewson was better, but it's certainly debatable.

Where's the love for Piazza? Quoting Mike Green "There has never been a catcher who hit as well as he has. Not even close." How much does his mediocre defence hurt his overall value?

I also put my team together in about 15 minutes, and didn't think about defence too much. I don't really know how to appraise defensive prowess of most players other than the obvious greats (Mays, Ozzie, etc), so I mostly disregarded it.

Forgetting Henderson was a mistake, kudos to those who remembered him.
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