The Baltimore Orioles will listen like thieves as they spend well "in excess" of their 2004 budget figures.

I thINk Carlos will find the offer eXeSive.

As I finally found a band from my era. :-)

I thought I would make up for my negative post yesterday with some positives:

- Baseball is having a resurgence throughout the country and it could mean great things for attendence and the Jays next year.
- I keep hearing talk that the Jays budget could be as high as $60 million for next season. My guess is it will be $53, but we may be pleasently surprised.
- Ricciardi is not denying the Eric Hinske trade rumours, and Cinci has confirmed the talks.
- The NHL strike can only benefit the Jays and baseball. Though I would like to see both leagues flourish.
- Even if the Jays don't sign Delgado, they will target a big bat. If Delgado decides to go elsewhere, Troy Glaus is the guy I'm hoping for.
- The Jays are in good hands with the management team that's running the team.
- Baseball's second season is about to begin and I for one love it!

I wouldn't be suprised if the Jays go hard after Troy Percival and offer him a one or two year deal. An LA paper today said (according to Percival's agent) the Angels have expressed zero interest in having him back. If the Jays can work something out to have Percival help groom a young closer, that would be great. I don't think he has enough left to be an all-star closer, but he could be quite solid and better than anything else the Jays have right now. Percival might get better money elsewhere with a contender, but it would likely be as a setup guy...

After Glaus' successful end to the season I think he's shown enough that he is health and he will get around Delgado money... much like Sexson.

I was surprised to see the Yankees decline Lieber's 8MM 2005 option for 2005.

Does anyone have a prediction of what he will end up signing for?

Should the Jays make an effort to sign him? Can they afford him?

While I was always a big fan of Percival over the years, I really think he will be more money than he is worth. Not the kind of smart spending the Jays need to do.

You may be right about Glaus being too much money, however I would at least inquire about his services. Because of his injuries, I still believe he will be undervalued and the type of player the Jays should go after. If he can be had in $7-$8 million per year range it would be a fantastic signing.

Unfortunately one of the things that I have overlooked is the Jays draft position. I would hate to lose a pick like that in the first round.

Because of this, I think the Jays have to stick to non-tendered players, trades, or wait until after the arbitration deadline to sign any free agents.

Does anyone have any idea as to how much salary Jays are committed for 2005? If they are committed for about $20M only, with $60M payroll, I think they have enough to sign couple of impact players, a la Glaus, maybe Sexson? Perhaps, Milton?

Should the Jays make an effort to sign him? Can they afford him?

I'm not sure what the point would be, unless he came in for under $5 million and you could deal Batista. The rotation will be strong enough next year without him.

Dealing Hisnke would be great- he'll be better next year, but not enough to justify that contract. If he can be dealt, it's like adding money to the FA budget.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/liebejo01.shtml
Well if the Yankees won't pay Lieber $8MM it's hard to believe anyone else will.

Looking him up...wow, just 18 walks in 177 innings this year.

The NHL strike can only benefit the Jays and baseball.

I'm not sure if the lack of hockey will make people more or less inclined to chant "Go Leafs Go!" at Skydome.
Boy I sure hope it's less.

Unfortunately one of the things that I have overlooked is the Jays draft position. I would hate to lose a pick like that in the first round.

Because the Jays finished in the bottom 15 teams in the league, they will NOT lose their first round pick if they sign type A or B free agents. That's how the Angels got away with signing so many A/B free agents last year without losing their number one pick.

According to Dugout Dollars, the Jays have 26 committed, but that's only 6 players, so if the Budget is 53, they only have 27 million for the rest of the roster, doesn't seem like much to me. Also with JP wanting to lock up Hudson, the FA money is down a little bit more.

DeMarco, the Jays wouldn't lose their first round draft pick because it's in the first half of the first round. It's only teams in the latter half of the round that lose their picks. The supplementary round is for teams that fall under this distinction. As for Delgado, if Toronto can't sign him I hope Baltimore tries to sign him right away so they can offer him arbitration after the fact and get the draft picks (similar to Escobar last year).

Don't ignore Lieber's 216 hits allowed. While Lieber has had a lot of success in his career, I've never been a fan of the low strike out pitchers, ala Corey Lidle.

Unfortunately one of the things that I have overlooked is the Jays draft position. I would hate to lose a pick like that in the first round.

Teams in the top half of the first round don't lose their first round pick if they sign players (it would shift to round 2).

Either way I wouldn't expect the Jays to sign anyone that would require compensation (and anyone that would require compensation is going to likely be out of their range anyway).

Wow, I didn't realize (or forgot) that the Jays wouldn't lose their first round pick!

I'm back on the Glaus bandwagon :)

I was wondering where you read that Lieber had a $8M option? Didn't he make $2.45M this year?

http://NHLFA.com
I'm not sure if the lack of hockey will make people more or less inclined to chant "Go Leafs Go!" at Skydome.

Vanessa and my Hallowe'en costumes this year: Leafs jerseys, burlap sacks with dollar signs on them, soothers in our mouths. For balance I suppose we should get one of our friends to put on a suit and a bald cap and give him a moneybag and a soother too.

I encourage anyone as irritated as I am at the situation right now (as I see it, two groups of rich men are telling all us fans to get stuffed) to join the NHL Fan Association. COMN.

Maybe the Yankees aren't taking their option on Lieber because he can't take the drum?

I was wondering where you read that Lieber had a $8M option? Didn't he make $2.45M this year?

The Yankees signed Lieber when he was hurt so his contract was deflated. The option I'm suspect was a reflection of what his worth would be if he fully recovered from TJ surgery and pitched well.

For balance I suppose we should get one of our friends to put on a suit and a bald cap and give him a moneybag and a soother too.

Just a bit. I mean, it's not the players who have shut down the game. Those damn workers.. not accepting everything the big corporations tell them to do and hiding behind "the law". What nerve!! ;)

It's not the lockout itself that annoys me, Moffatt, it's both sides saying "Well, the other side hasn't contacted me, nothing I can do..."

Work out your damn differences and get back to the game.

100 million points to Wayne H for identifying the band as INXS and the song as "Listen Like Thieves".

He wins a picture of INXS:



and a picture of a sea creature of some sort. How about a porcupine fish?



Enjoy!

Work out your damn differences and get back to the game.

The problem is the owners have no interest in doing so and they've got a somewhat legitimate reason. The salaries they're paying are so high that in the short run they're losing less money by not playing.

In the long run it's a pretty myopic strategy as you're going to kill fan interest. But no one has ever accused the NHL owners of being forward thinking.

I have no sympathy for the NHL players.

It's simple math, NHL teams have payrolls comparable to other sports leagues (MLB, NBA, NFL), yet the revenues generated aren't even close. So either other leagues are underpaying their athletes or the NHL has extremely overpaid theres. I choose to believe the later, thus think that if there isn't radical change, the league is in big trouble. The players aren't allowing this change, so the owners are forced to do what they have.

I don't think anyone would argue that NHL players aren't vastly overpaid relative to the revenue of the league. It's just a matter of deciding what the solutions are.

The league can solve the problem without the help of the players if they'd practice a little common sense for awhile. That's never going to happen, though.

I think the owners see that there is decension among the players and will wait until they break. Expect the season to be cancelled this year, then the league to implement there own rules next year with Scab players. I think this will break the union.

You have to love when owners overspend and then tell the players they need a system to help them stop doing that.

See, I really don't care about the economics of it or who's right and who's wrong. What I care about is that neither of them are actively working towards solving the problem. If they had been holding meetings every day or every other day or even weekly since the problem was on the horizon, then I'd start to care and try to determine for myself whose side I was on. But instead they didn't meet before the deadline, they met briefly after the deadline and have not met at all since the lockout.

Good job killing hockey, guys!

I suspect you might be right, DeMarco. It may be difficult to play with scab players in Canada given the law of the land. I suppose they could play all the games in the States, though.

I don't know if this would break the union, though. Problem is the players have a whole lot of options (playing in Sweden, Finland, Germany, etc.) that the NHL needs its players more than its players need the NHL.

But I do think that is what the owners are going to try.

The owners have zero interest in meeting or getting hockey back, NFH. What is the player's union supposed to do. Beg?

A totally off topic subject, however take a look at the 1999 NBA Draft, how did the Raptors have two picks, and not get one of the MANY studs that came out of that 1st round?

This may be one of the worst showings at a draft in the history of sports.

Rail against it? Try to set up meetings and then make the owners look bad because they won't come? Something.

And mark me down as someone who would not watch games played with replacement players.

EVIL CONSPIRACY THOUGHT: CBC's Making The Cut reality series is actually an audition for scab players for next year.

Rail against it? Try to set up meetings and then make the owners look bad because they won't come? Something.

That stuff is all optics. Besides, is making the owners look bad really going to help your negotiations (which still go on without face-to-face meetings) go any better?

Dear, Gary Bettman, Bill Wirtz, and the other owners.

Sorry we made you guys look like asses in public. Please concede to our demands.

Sincerely,

The Players

The owners or the players can't kill hockey, because they don't own hockey. We do. There will always be hockey games to play and hockey games to watch. If this work stoppage should teach us anything, it's how little we need the NHL.

There is no point in meeting if the two groups aren't going to talk to each other.

Each side has a stance and don't think they should give in.

I have also wondered how replacement players will work given Canada's laws? I do think that there will be many players that will cross the picket lines to play, if this were to happen.

I do think that there will be many players that will cross the picket lines to play, if this were to happen.

There'd be tons of guys who would do it in a heartbeat. Career minor leaguers who are trapped in the ECHL or some other low minor/independent league who jump at the chance to play in the NHL, even if it is as a scab.

I mean, I do think there will be plenty of NHL players that will cross the picket lines. I continue to hear players saying they don't care if there is a cap, they just want to play.

I don't know if this would break the union, though. Problem is the players have a whole lot of options (playing in Sweden, Finland, Germany, etc.) that the NHL needs its players more than its players need the NHL.

Yeah but the players make only about a fifth in Europe of what they make here. How are they supposed to live on that? They have Hummer payments to make y'know! I actually think it's the other way around and that the players need the NHL more. Maybe not to survive, but in order to maintain close to the standard of living they're used to. I would watch scab players if the NHLPA decided that it would rather protect the current system and play in Europe.

I also think that the number of players playing in Europe is a slap in the face to the players union. If you really support the union, you wouldn't play at all.

The guys that played in Europe during the last work stoppage, really felt the heat when it was settled. I guess that isn't going to happen this time.

I mean, I do think there will be plenty of NHL players that will cross the picket lines. I continue to hear players saying they don't care if there is a cap, they just want to play.

Some might. I doubt too many other than maybe 4th line guys would, though. You'd get kicked out of the union and once the work stoppage is over, you'd pretty much be a pariah for life with other players.

I think like many people (including us) the players are just venting their frustration at a situation that spiralled way out of control for pretty silly reasons.

I also think that the number of players playing in Europe is a slap in the face to the players union. If you really support the union, you wouldn't play at all.

I've heard that line of thinking before and it makes no sense to me.

Playing in Europe should help the union a lot more, because it shows the NHL that the players will gladly play elsewhere and don't need the NHL as much as the owners think.

Sitting at home and sulking is a sign of weakness. I wouldn't be surprised if the NHLPA was secretly encouraging players to play in Europe as part of their negotiating strategy.

How did it work in the NFL when players crossed the picket line? Is there no more union now? Or because of the large number of players that crossed the lines, did the union just cave into the owners demands and forgive those that crossed?

Bronson Arroyo's on the Fan right now. Says he didn't go to bed until 9am yesterday and that he'll get rid of his cornrows after the parade tomorrow.

One more point, because of the large number of Europeans that play in the NHL only because they can make the most money there, why wouldn't they cross the lines to make more money again.

the union just cave into the owners demands and forgive those that crossed?

That's pretty much what happened. That's what the MLB owners hoped would happen in 1995 when they used scab players in spring training. The difference being that the baseball scab players were pretty useless.

A good summary of the 1987 NFL strike is available here. Here's the key parts:

In my opinion, the foundation of cooperation that exists between the NFLPA and the league's owners is the 1987 players strike. That year, the players and owners got into the most harsh labor strife in NFL history. It had been brewing for some time. There was a significant loss of season in 1982 due to a players strike, and a lot of veterans lost their jobs when players went on strike for the 1974 training camp and preseason period. In '87, the owners were ready for a players strike. When players went on strike after the second week of the season, the owners retaliated with replacement players. It only took three replacement games before the players union realized it had been defeated. At that point in time, the players union was dust. Its ranks were broken and the owners were in complete control of the game, but what the owners came to realize very quickly was that they needed the players to have a strong union as much as the players needed to have a strong union. Why? Because the owners needed a players union with which they could negotiate a labor agreement that would provide for a draft, among other things. Baseball has anti-trust, but football doesn't.

One more point, because of the large number of Europeans that play in the NHL only because they can make the most money there, why wouldn't they cross the lines to make more money again.

Becuase they want to support the union, not break the union and be labelled as a scab for life?

(note to self...learn HTML)

" You have to love when owners overspend and then tell the players they need a system to help them stop doing that. "

Not arguing the point, but what I find interesting is that when the owners fianlly realize they have created a monster, and then try to correct the market, the players and the players union start to whisper the dreaded "c" word. Collusion. The NHL strike has overtones from the ML strike of '94.

Besides which, it's simple to solve this particular stoppage - throw Bettman and his cronies on the ice with Goodenow and his goons and have a good ole fashioned line brawl. Winner gets their way.

Becuase they want to support the union, not break the union and be labelled as a scab for life?

I think that a lot of the European players could care less, they were only there for the money in the first place. Just like a lot of them could care less about playing well in the playoffs.

Besides which, it's simple to solve this particular stoppage - throw Bettman and his cronies on the ice with Goodenow and his goons and have a good ole fashioned line brawl. Winner gets their way.

Ooooh. There's an idea I could support. It'd be fun to watch Bobby Clarke tangle with one of today's goons. :)

I think that a lot of the European players could care less, they were only there for the money in the first place. Just like a lot of them could care less about playing well in the playoffs.

It's possible, and perhaps that's what the NHL owners are predicting will happen. Personally I think you're underestimating the resolve of the European players.

Personally I think you're underestimating the resolve of the European players.

Quite possible, it's all speculation at this point.

There was one curious name among those who filed -- New York Mets first baseman Mo Vaughn, out most of the last two seasons with an arthritic left knee. Vaughn, who completed an $80 million, six-year contract, filed to get off the Mets' 40-man roster

Possible Jays 1st baseman next year? :)

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/postseason-portmortem/
Brian Gunn has done a fine post-mortem on the WS from the Cardinal perspective in today's THT. COMN.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/jacob_luft/10/28/redsox.empire/index.html
COMN for Jacob Luft's lefthanded compliments to the Sox for winning it all

"A totally off topic subject, however take a look at the 1999 NBA Draft, how did the Raptors have two picks, and not get one of the MANY studs that came out of that 1st round?"

The Rapts traded Bender for Antonio Davis, which turned out to be a good trade for about 3 years, he helped take them to the 2nd round, and played great the following year to get them in the playoffs.

The 2nd pick was the worst pick in Raptors history, bar none.

To answer your question, HOW? Glen Grunwal.

The 2nd pick was the worst pick in Raptors history, bar none.

Does it ever work when teams pick untalented big men hoping they'll turn into studs? Hopefully the Raptor pick from this year will avoid a similar fate as Mr. Radojevic.

I bet Glen G didn't even see this guy play in person. Atleast this year's pick played in the USA for 4 years.

I suspect you might be right, DeMarco. It may be difficult to play with scab players in Canada given the law of the land.

My understanding is that it's not an issue in Ontario, Quebec, or Alberta, but BC provincial law would prevent the usage of replacement workers.

So, if the owners do use scabs, the Canucks would have to find another place to play, just as the Jays were "going to" play their 1995 scab home games in Florida.

(It might've been the only thing they did that had a positive effect, but Rae's NDP's anti-scab legislation would've spared us from having to watch scab ball in Toronto... for a few months, anyways, until Harris repealed the law as one of his govt's first acts)

From yesterdays discussion, Robert Dudek is indeed right,Bellhorn is not a free agent.

Jacob Luft was my editor in college. Get that dude all the ink you can.

I think my favorite moment in sports labor strife was Patrick Ewing answering why fans shouldn't be angry with players: 'People have to understand, we make a lot of money, but we spend a lot of money too'.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/online/2004draft/041029drcale.html
Baseball America just came out with its 2004 Draft Report Cards for AL East teams. COMN. (by subscription only).

Baseball America just came out with its 2004 Draft Report Cards for AL East teams

How did the Jays do?

I dont think a ranking will come out until they have completed all of the divisions - and usually they only ranks the top 3-5 and the bottom 3-5...(Jays 2002 draft was ranked #1 at the time and their 2003 draft was ranked #3 at the time).

The assessment was that the Jays did a good job grabbing both Purcey and Jackson in the first round.

C.

Becuase they want to support the union, not break the union and be labelled as a scab for life?

Except the NHLPA is opening the door for scab players, should the NHL go that route. There are currently over 200 NHLPA members taking jobs away from players in Europe(in some cases taking jobs away from former NHLPA members, I think Lonny Bohonos is one example). The European players who would have thought twice about being 'scabs' aren't going to care much anymore. The stigma of being labeled a scab is not going to be like what it turned out to be in baseball.

The 2nd pick was the worst pick in Raptors history, bar none

Can you imagine if the Raptors selected Shawn Marion and Ron Artest rather than the two clowns they did pick.

Any one of these guys would have been awesome on the Raptors:

- Corey Maggette
- Shawn Marion
- Ron Artest
- Walter Szczerbiak
- Richard Hamilton
- Jason Terry
- Andre Miller

http://www.baseballamerica.com/online/2004draft/041029drcale.html
BA has their 2004 AL East draft report cards up if you are a subscriber.

A little taste:

Closest To The Majors: Purcey and Jackson are too close to call. Purcey has better pure stuff, but Jackson has more control and consistency.

Assessment: The first round couldn't have worked out any better for the Blue Jays. After deliberating between Purcey and Jackson with the No. 16 pick, Jackson was still on the board when they picked again at No. 32.

I'm like the rest of you in that I find Schilling's self-promotion a bit irritating. That said, how many of you would like a player on the Jays who's a dominant pitcher who also takes the time to post on Da Box, and phones in to tell McCowan (sp) that he's a jackass? I'd certainly like it.

As for Jobu saying that guys play with worse injuries than this in the NFL every day...that's not really true. Even if it is true, the NFL doesn't put the demands on that part of the body that pitching does. Give the guy some credit: a procedure was invented that involved sewing a tendon into place temporarily and then sending him out there. Read Will Carroll over at BP, and you'll get a good idea of how impressive this is.

As for the strike, the players make me sick. I'm no fan of the owners but they're better than the players in this instance. I can't believe we're seeing players go over to Europe and put guys out of work; it's ridiculous. That said, I'm getting more and more hopeful that the union will break or something. Some of the young guys are realizing that this strike has nothing to do with them, and don't seem too thrilled about being a part of the Goodenow/Linden agenda.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20041028&content_id=907671&vkey=afl_news&fext=.jsp
All AFL games yesterday were postponed due to wet weather. COMN.

BA has their 2004 AL East draft report cards up if you are a subscriber.

It sounds like they are pretty high on late signing Cory Patton as well. Good power and good defence.

Where's the link to the jays' rating on BA?

That said, how many of you would like a player on the Jays who's a dominant pitcher who also takes the time to post on Da Box, and phones in to tell McCowan (sp) that he's a jackass? I'd certainly like it.

Of course we'd like it. Would I like it if the guy held his own press confrences to tell the world how he overcame ankle pain and then had his own freakin parade in disney world? Hells no.

And okay the NFL doesnt put demands on "that part of the body" but there are other parts of the body than the ankle to put demands on... Some of the stuff NFL'ers do scares me. Playing with broken ribs, concussions that could kill if they took one more bad hit, didn't even Mr. Richard play with a broken arm or something? Or is that just myth?

I thought it was pretty sad that the first thing the players offered was a larger restriction on what rookies can make. Basically, selling out all their future union members. I think its sad the players won't consider a cap, especially when you consider the new agreement would only last for 5 years or so. If the owners would like to win everyone over, they should announce that they will only do a deal that will allow them to roll back ticket prices 25%. If some players have to make 5M instead of 11M, that would be ok with me.
I wonder if the players can persue an owners cap, that would mean anything the owners made over x dollars would be split 50-50 with the players, and distributed through out the league, equally.

Doesn't Disney do one of these parades after every sport championship? I can understand that they'd want Schil; he's a major part of the story who also speaks English as a first language. Dilfer went one year after Ray Lewis won the MVP, and Disney didn't want Lewis because they were worried they'd find Snow White in a dumpster. You seem to be under the impression that Schil rented out Disneyland to have his parade.

I loved those commercials as a kid eg:

Scene of the San Francisco 49er just winning the Super Bowl

Narirator "Joe Montana, now that you have just won the Super Bowl, what are you going to do?"

Montana (from the happy pile): "I'm going to Disneyland!"

I'm not, just pointing out that it's right up his alley. Like someone said a few days ago it seems like Schil is the type of guy to take a magic marker to his sock before the game. And as Mr. Toth quipped on sportsnet "This just in, Curt Schilling stated he is still going to have his ankle sutured for the non existant game 6 so he can hold a press confrence to tell the world how he overcame that pain to get to the ball park".

Just pointing out the parts of Schil that you convineintly left out when you listed reasons why we'd "like" a player like that and how NFL'ers don't put high demands on their ankle...whatever that means.

NFL doesn't put the demands on that part of the body that pitching does

You're telling me an NFL running back has less strain on his ankle than a pitcher?? Not a chance. Watch some of their cuts in slow motion and say that again.

Luft's article about the Sox becoming the Yankees is very interesting. The most fascinating part, something I never realized, is the absolute lack of homegrown talent. Trot Nixon is the only homegrown player!? Yikes. Although, I guess in the Sox defense of purely buying a championship, a lot of those guys are long time Sox, as opposed to rent-a-players.

I can understand that they'd want Schil; he's a major part of the story who also speaks English as a first language

Pedro and Ortiz were both in the commercial with Schilling.

Is Nixon really the ONLY homegrown talent on that team? Yowsa... I never stopped to realize that even the MFY's have more homegrown talent than the Sox, but in the sox defence, less rent-a-players.

You're telling me an NFL running back has less strain on his ankle than a pitcher??

No, I'm not saying that all. Quick, name every running back who's ever played a game after having this procedure done. Yeah, I thought so.

Jobu; meh. Whatever. If you want to suggest that the guy seems like he'd take a marker to his sock, whatever. The doctors were probably lying afterwards when they said that sutures had popped out, everyone knows that doctors are notorious liars. You're not so much pointing out parts of Schill that I conveniently left out as pointing out things that people who don't really like him have said. Mike Toth? Mike F. Toth!?!?! The dumbest man on Canadian television. When I see him start to do his comedy on the screen I want to cut the eyes out of my skull.

Doesn't Disney do one of these parades after every sport championship?

They did one with Nancy Kerrigan.

'Geesh, this is corny. Man, do I hate doing this'

As for Schilling, if he was an NHLer, he'd just say he had a "Lower Body Injury", and we wouldn't have to hear any more about it...

At what price limit do you think the Jays should say to King Carlos thanks but no thanks?

Anything above six million on the Carlos question.

Running backs hanven't played on that procedure because they just invented it. You should be able to realize that RB's and other players play with considerable stress on their ankles as well, and can have *shock* other injuries similar to that or worse that they play through.

And I was didn't make up the magic marker thing, I was pointing out what someone else said a few days ago. And what makes you think doctors don't lie? Doctors lie all the time. NFL and NHL doctors probably sign more than their fair shares of clean bills of health for players who are clearly not.

If you're going to call me out and bring up arguments that Schil is awesome and we'd love to have him on the team and "NFL'ers don't put strain on that part of their body" than you're damn right I'm going to point out other parts of schil that people who don't like him said, because those are the same reasons I don't like him. Point-Counter-point.

And Mike Toth is not close to being the dumbest man on Canadian TV, I'd like to point out Bob McDB and half the VJ's at much :)

I wouldn't re-sign Carlo's for anything more the $8 million/year, with one exception, if Rogers makes a special allowance for him (kick in extra bucks above the budget) and Carlos agrees to sign for $9 million or less.

As for Schilling, if he was an NHLer, he'd just say he had a "Lower Body Injury", and we wouldn't have to hear any more about it...

Cheers. My points exactly.

You guys really need to get BP memberships. It's all fine and well to say to that if Schilling was an NHL player he'd just tough it out yada, yada, yada. Fact of the matter is that he was injured to the point that he was ineffective; see Game 1 against the Yankees (unless he faked it so he could be the hero later). That's not a lack of toughness or anything, that's a tendon torn to the point that he couldn't perform.

Saying that RB's haven't had the procedure because it was just invented shows an appalling lack of understanding both of the forces that running backs put on their ankles and what the procedure entails. The sutures popped from the force put on the ankle by pitching; you honestly think that they would hold up for a single drive? If so, you're nuts.

You might not have made up the magic marker thing, but unless you can point to something more credible than "I'm repeating what someone else said" that position is bullshit.

Just to be sure that I've understood your point, you're saying that the doctors were lying when they said that the sutures popped out, so as to help burnish the legend of Schil, who had actually used a magic marker on his sock? This is the story you've chosen?

It was funny a few years ago when Mike Shanahan and the Broncos reported that Jake Plummer had "a mild concussion," when in fact, he had a sprained shoulder. It was so the opponent wouldn't know he wasn't going to do much throwing after halftime. Sounds fair to me...but it got the Broncos fined by the NFL and a injury disclosure rule change.

And to answer the Carlos question, it clearly depends on what the final budget will be. I'd say with a 53M+ budget, I'd be OK with as high as 8.5ish/year for 3 or fewer years.

I think Jobu's just upset because Schilling supports President Bush ;)

Wow, that's alot to clear up...

you're saying that the doctors were lying when they said that the sutures popped out

Never once did I say that. I was countering your sarcastic argument that insinuated that doctors are prophets who walk the earth and never lie.

Saying that RB's haven't had the procedure because it was just invented shows an appalling lack of understanding both of the forces that running backs put on their ankles and what the procedure entails. The sutures popped from the force put on the ankle by pitching; you honestly think that they would hold up for a single drive? If so, you're nuts.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. You asked how many Rb's have played after this procedure, to which you answered your own question "yah, I thought so". So I'm saying is: of course they can't play through that procedure since Schil was seemingly the first person to have it done to him.... Then you say that if they did it to RB's the stitches wouldnt survive a single endzone drive which is exactly the point I was trying to make...so is that you backing off your "NFL'ers dont play with strain on that part of the body comment? Which would be a wise thing at this point....

The marker thing, again, more than likely isnt true, and it's not an "argument" it's me saying he seems like the kinda guy who'd do that in a joking manner.

You're saying "he's great, and he's a hero, and he pitches while near crippled, and the team would love to have him" and I said (yesterday) "he's not the first person to do this, NFL players play through much worse, and I dislike the attention he's brought to him and his injury". Now were talking about doctors and god knows what. Can't we just leave it at I don't like the attention he brings upon himself for playing on a bad ankle and not call me out with arguments like "NFL players dont put that kind of strain on their ankle".

I don't want to flame anyone, but it boggles my mind that anyone can side with the owners in the NHL lockout. If you want to say that they're both being dicks, I can understand that, but blaming the players for being locked out?

It drives me nuts when I hear people say things about how the players want more. The players have never once, ever, in any sport, asked for more. They just want to continue to work under conditions that we call take for granted.

Sweat, I think you're showing a common misconception. You seem to think that ticket prices are related to player salaries, and it's just not true. NHL teams charge what they can get for their tickets, no more, no less. (Well okay, they don't always figure this number out exactly, but that's what they're shooting for). Tickets prices will pretty much always be set to maximize revenue, regardless of what players are making.

Do you really think that if there's a salary cap the Leafs will lower ticket prices? Of course not, and in fact, I can't conceive of anything that would make the Leafs lower their ticket prices.

Does he really four seemer? Wow....

Who would have thought that one series would have vaulted Martinez over Schil on my respect list....ha.

Who would have thought that one series would have vaulted Martinez over Schil on my respect list

It was nice to hear Pedro make reference to Montreal. I didn't hear the lead-in to his statement, it was quite possibly "What are your thoughts about Montreal now that you've finally won a championship", but he seemed pretty genuine.

It drives me nuts when I hear people say things about how the players want more. The players have never once, ever, in any sport, asked for more. They just want to continue to work under conditions that we call take for granted.

Conditions that are no longer financially feasible according to the owners. And of course they want to continue to work, cause they know they're getting a great deal out of it. Plus, it sounds really good on the news.

The current CBA has expired so they must negotiate a new one. There is nothing that says the new one has to be anything like the old one and if the old one was bad for they owners then I have no problem with them not wanting another CBA that is similarly constructed. If the old CBA had been heck on the players and they were getting shafted do you think they would have wanted to continue to work under those conditions when it came time to re-up? Look at the TV deal the NHL has, look at the attendance figures the NHL has, it looks pretty clear to me that the players are making too much money. If this is what it takes for the owners to get control over themselves and the union then so be it.

Well, not that I'd really hold Bush against Schil for respect, that's his perogitive. Mostly ankle-gate and Pedro's thoughtful comments are what provoked the switch. Here's to hoping he doesn't become a Yankee next year and can keep my respect (because it's obvious its the most important thing in the world to him).

PS. NFH has a Boston hollogram cup that mis-spells Schilling as Shilling. Wonder if he can get any cash for it.

They just want to continue to work under conditions that we call take for granted.

The players worked under a CBA with very specific rules which are negotiated. You and I don't operate under those conditions.

Christopher, I think Pedro brought up Montreal without being prompted. When Vanessa and I heard it we both looked at each other and said wow.

but blaming the players for being locked out?

If the owners didn't lock the players out, they would have striked, it means nothing that it's called a lock-out.

The NHL owners know that they have messed the league up, if they would have tried to fix this situation earlier, it would have been called collusion. Now that they can fix the situation, they should not be faulted for it. Saying that the owners made there own bed is true, that's why they are re-making the bed now.

While you are right about the ticket prices, I would like to see the league grow. As it stands, almost half the leagues teams will fold if the there aren't drastic changes made. That's not what I would call a league that is healthy. The players should realize that allowing the league to be healthy is better for both the owners and the players.

I think Pedro brought up Montreal without being prompted.

If that's the case, then kudos to him. I think I had the same expression as you did, kind of a stunned disbelief.

If the owners didn't lock the players out, they would have striked, it means nothing that it's called a lock-out.

Are you joking? There's no way in a million years the players would strike after the CBA ran out. The current arrangement is working out really, really well for them.

Conditions that are no longer financially feasible according to the owners.

Well I guess that's the key point. According to the owners, small market teams can't compete. I guess we'll never see a small market team like Calgary or Tampa Bay in the Stanley Cup.
The current problems are all the fault of the owners, and now that they've been idiots for years they've decided to try to break the union to preven them (the owners) from screwing things up again.

The players worked under a CBA with very specific rules which are negotiated. You and I don't operate under those conditions.

The players consistently use the CBA to attempt to keep a free market (the part we take for granted), while the owners consistently try to take that away.

Personally I think that a Luxury Tax is the best solution, but the owners are afraid that Luxury Tax won't protect them from themselves, so they won't go for that.

Are you joking? There's no way in a million years the players would strike after the CBA ran out.

The owners would have implemented there own system since there is now no agreed CBA, and the players would have striked.

There is no way the owners would have carried forward the old agreement.

The players should realize that allowing the league to be healthy is better for both the owners and the players.

I think everyone would agree to that. Where the owners and players disagree on is what will make the league healthy.

Earlier free agency and getting rid of some of the more useless teams would do a lot to drive down salaries without putting artifical caps in place.

The owners would have implemented there own system since there is now no agreed CBA

I'm 99% sure that's not how it works (but I may be wrong). If there is no agreement, the rules of the current CBA are still in place.

Paul D, i only meant that the owners SHOULD offer to lower ticket prices. Getting most of the fans on their side, and at the same time reviving interest in the NHL. I understand the argument that they only charge what they can get, but just because most businesses are run that way, doesnt mean the nhl has too, especially if they want the fans to come back.

What do you think Orlando Cabrera would have done if, in Spring Training this year, you told him that he would win a World Series this year and his former teammate Vlad, who just signed a big deal with a "contender" would lose to his team?

I'm 99% sure that's not how it works (but I may be wrong).

That's what one of the 'experts' said on TV. Not that it means anything.

Regardless, is it still a lockout next year when the owners allow replacement players, or is it a strike?

Well I guess that's the key point. According to the owners, small market teams can't compete. I guess we'll never see a small market team like Calgary or Tampa Bay in the Stanley Cup.

The key point has nothing to do with competition, the key point is that the small market teams can't make any money.


The current problems are all the fault of the owners, and now that they've been idiots for years they've decided to try to break the union to preven them (the owners) from screwing things up again.

Correct. Is that so wrong? They screwed things up, it's their fault and they know it and have paid for it. Now they're trying to fix it so it doesn't happen again. I don't see the problem.

Regardless, is it still a lockout next year when the owners allow replacement players, or is it a strike?

Since the players aren't on strike, I guess it's still a lockout. Good question, though.

The players consistently use the CBA to attempt to keep a free market (the part we take for granted), while the owners consistently try to take that away.

The NHL players had a free market only at age 31. Prior to that the market was very restrictive. The NBA has a much freer market and a salary cap so that players are able to move in their mid 20's under the terms of their CBA. Salary cap and free agency are not mutually exclusive. Howver, I don't want to sound like I'm a big salary cap supporter since I don't see how it will help my Leafs in any way.

Okay, I see what you're seeing sweat.

I'm against a salary cap in any sport, and I'll tell you why.

All that a salary cap does is redistribute income. However, it doesn't redistribute it from the players to the fans, it redistributes it from the millionaire players to the billionaire owners.

Personally, I'd rather see the money to towards the players that provide the product that I enjoy then the owners. (And yes, the owners should be compensated, and they generally are by the increase in franchise value).

If the NHL comes back and has to fold 6 teams in non hockey markets (florida, Carolina, Atlanta, etc)... so? What's the loss? If those markets can't be profitable then there's no need to have those markets.

Correct. Is that so wrong? They screwed things up, it's their fault and they know it and have paid for it. Now they're trying to fix it so it doesn't happen again. I don't see the problem.

It's the manner in which they're trying to fix the problem. It'd be like Dubya pulling out all the troops in Iraq and deciding to just nuke the place. Sure it would put an end to the problem, but it's not exactly a desirable solution. :)

Correct. Is that so wrong? They screwed things up, it's their fault and they know it and have paid for it. Now they're trying to fix it so it doesn't happen again. I don't see the problem.

Wrong, once an owner makes a mistake, he is not allowed to try and fix it, and must live with his mistake for the rest of his life. :)

Correct. Is that so wrong? They screwed things up, it's their fault and they know it and have paid for it. Now they're trying to fix it so it doesn't happen again. I don't see the problem.

They should fix the problem by correcting what's wrong with themselves, not by punishing the players.

MatO, when I use the term free market I mean the ability to get paid what you want by whomever you want. However, upon reflection, I'm not against entry level salary caps, so I probably am a hypocrite.

I keep hearing that the owners have to wait one year from the expiration of the last CBA and then they will be able to impose their own version (I don't know where this one year comes from but it's been mentioned several times). This is where the replacement player and scab part comes in I guess. They will simply say these are the new rules and who wants to play. Not sure how old contracts would be treated.

I think Pedro brought up Montreal without being prompted.

If that's the case, then kudos to him. I think I had the same expression as you did, kind of a stunned disbelief.

Me as well. A general shock like when the token bad boy of a 80s sitcom turns out to have a heart of gold.

PS. Pedro is already being written into Too Many Molinas! as I speak.

when I use the term free market I mean the ability to get paid what you want by whomever you want.

The only problem with this is that it creates an unequal playing field. Which isn't a problem if you are fine with the teams that make the most money having the best players. I for one prefer every team having a equal chance.

Also if you compare this situation to a business, the NHL is the business and it's teams are only divisions of this business. Most business don't allow it's divisions to bankrupt other divisions, they try to do what is best for the whole company. As far as competition goes, if players don't like what they get paid in this league, find another league to play in.

They should fix the problem by correcting what's wrong with themselves, not by punishing the players.

How should they fix what's wrong with themselves? And Punishing? They're still going to be making millions.

Anyway I dont want to come across as some huge proponent of the owners here. I just think they're everybit within their rights to do what they're doing and I think that something does need to be done to get control of spending in the league. I personally think some kind of luxury tax is probably in everyone's best interests, Im against a hard cap. Im hoping beyond all hope that both sides will eventually see the light.

What Mike said at the top of this thread was absolutely right. "If there's one thing this lockout has shown us is how little we really need the NHL".

Thanks Ryan!

It's weird. I don't miss the NHL. At all. Which is particularly weird since I'm a Flames fan.

I admit the fact that the London Knights are 12-0-1 this year helps a lot. :)

Is this a baseball site? :)

One further thought, what are the chances that because the best players in the world are now playing in Europe, that those leagues take off, and all North American hockey leagues (including the NHL) become the second teir leagues to those Europe.

The only problem with this is that it creates an unequal playing field.

Maybe so, but does the NHL currently have an equal playing field? Don't we hear EVERY year about the parity that now exists in the NHL? Their playoff structure would seem to negate a lot of the advantage the rich teams allegedly get. This action by the owners was not and is not necessary. They have the means to themselves control how much money is spent without the need of a structure like a hard salary cap.

The league can solve the problem without the help of the players if they'd practice a little common sense for awhile.

Instead, as usual, they want the players to save them from their own stupidity and bad judgements...

I miss the hockey, but hey. Whatever. Its not my life, its not my livelihood. Its just my entertainment. They're all free to work out their issues for as long as it takes...

they don't own hockey. We do.

Ya think? No one owns the game, but this particular aspect of it - the best players in the world gathered together in one place... if anyone owns it, the players do. Or at least, they are the product, they are the thing itself. We give it economic value, we determine how much money it generates. I'm not sure if that's ownership. Ownership is control...

Quick question, where's the source of the reported $60M budget for next season? I hope it's true!

The European leagues are already quite successful (relatively of course) with or without NHL players. The only significant difference is the interest now being shown by North Americans, and some of the richer owners over there scooping up bigger talents to heighten their teams international reputations.

There is parity in the league now, mostly because of the follown:

1) Poor management, teams like NY Rangers apparently have no idea what they are doing.
2) Small market teams are operating taking HUGE loses - not sure if this will or can stay as a constant.
3) Playoff system, I agree that there playoff system helps, in a short series there is always opportunity for an upset.
4) Defensive game, the way the game is played now with such an emphasis on defense, teams with smaller payrolls can be more competitive. I remember Polland once held Team Canada to 1 goal because then never sent more than 1 player over the blue line.

I personally would like to see the game open up, I find that more entertaining, however it would drive up players salaries, and make the stars more apparent.

Based on much of the socialist commentary here, you'd think it absurd that owners be allowed to make any money whatsoever despite huge sums of capital being invested. Just remember who one of the larger shareholders of MLSE is: the teachers pension plan. Surely they should have some say in dictating the players wage, just as we dictate what they're to be paid.

1) Poor management, teams like NY Rangers apparently have no idea what they are doing.

I invision their board room looking alot like the MAD boardroom Bart walked in on.

Please, no more hockey talk. I come here to avoid this, not wade through an entire thread of it.

The owners can make as much money as they want. The advocates for the players aren't suggesting putting a profit cap on hockey teams. ;)

Well if the Yankees won't pay Lieber $8MM it's hard to believe anyone else will.

They don't want to pay $8 million for a middle rotation type starter. They'd rather pool that money towards getting the highest impact guys available. Something the Jays would do well to learn from (not that they do it to the extent of paying $8 million for mid-level performance).

According to Dugout Dollars, the Jays have 26 committed, but that's only 6 players, so if the Budget is 53, they only have 27 million for the rest of the roster, doesn't seem like much to me. Also with JP wanting to lock up Hudson, the FA money is down a little bit more.

Actually, the Jays have $29.5 million commited to 7 players:

Halladay ($10.5), Batista ($4.75), Lilly ($3.1), Hinske ($3), Wells ($2.9), Catalanatto ($2.7), Ligtenberg ($2.5)

So that's nearly 60% of the payroll with 18 players left to sign. If Halladay and Wells come back you have two good players but that's hardly the core of a winning team. I think Hinske, Batista, and Ligtenberg should all be moved if possible. Essentially those players are keeping the Jays from retaining Delgado or picking up more attractive free agents from the '05 market. I know most folks including myself were pleased with the Batista signing last year but more often than not these mid-level salaries for mid-level players always kill teams, especially those with small budgets.

And assuming that core is retained, what do you do with the $16 million or so you'll have left after signing the young players? Sign a bushel of Batista, Catalanatto, and Ligtenberg level players? And then commit the remainder on long term dollars for Orlando Hudson? I think that's a recipe for building a team with an 80 win ceiling.

I'm convinced more than ever that the way for a small market team to compete is to have a handful of highly paid star players surrounded by cheap, talented, improving youth. If you can keep Delgado you HAVE to keep him because following their current plan the Jays will never have a player of that calibre again.

To make my point perfectly clear in regards to Schilling (yes, I'm still on this), NFL players are a bad analogy. A more apt analogy is a guy like Steve Yzerman. Both players were at the physical limits of their ability to perform, but found a way to play anyway. Rightfully, both guys were praised a great deal for playing. These examples differ from playing with pain, as even with a pain shot, they were still at the limits of their ability to perform. Anyone who saw Schilling pitch game 1 of the ALCS has to know that he was physically unable to do any better. It wasn't pitching with pain, it was an inability to get any leverage and push that did him in.

He then goes and has an untested surgery, knowing full well that if the tendon were to tear completely, he could be finished. It's special anyway you look at it, and Schilling's tendency towards self-promotion does nothing to do with it. It might diminish what you think of Schilling (personally, I'm willing to overlook it because of his clear, genuine passion for the game, the fans and the history of the game) but if you let it diminish your opinion of what he accomplished, whether by saying that people play with pain all of the time, or that he might have faked the blood with the help of lying doctors, you're missing the point.

Just to change gears. Seeing as how the Hinske to Cinci talks seem to be legit, who might be coming back? Or who might JP have asked for?

Graves? Casey? Other?

Would I like it if the guy held his own press confrences to tell the world how he overcame ankle pain and then had his own freakin parade in disney world?

I think if he just helped us win a world championship we'd be saying "You rock, fella!"

As for the strike, the players make me sick.

What strike? There is no strike. This is the owners locking the players out of the rinks. Get it right.

it means nothing that it's called a lock-out.

Rather like saying it means nothing that this is called first degree murder and this is called justifiable homicide in self-defense. Somebody's dead, right?

Disney didn't want Lewis because they were worried they'd find Snow White in a dumpster.

LOL

You're telling me an NFL running back has less strain on his ankle than a pitcher

Its apples and oranges. Baseball is less about raw athleticism and more about precision and accuracy. Injuries that are trivial in other sports disable baseball players for reasons that have nothing to do with pain threshold. You can't throw a slider with a blister on your fingertips. You can't hit a curveball with authority if you have a sprained wrist. Etc.

It only took three replacement games before the players union realized it had been defeated

Football had no structure that includes the players who are not in the NFL - therefore the level of the replacement players turned out to be quite comparable to the guys who were on stike. It would be like replacing ML baseball with AAA, or the NHL with the International League.

But when baseball tried replacement players, they had to go all the way outside their existing system. They couldn't dream of using prospects like Delgado (in the minors at the time) as a replacement player. And the players within the structure at the time (like Delgado) would never have crossed the line. They understood a) they had a lot more to gain from the strike than Gary Gaetti, who was just losing the last few paychecks of his career; b) if they did cross the line, they'd spend the rest of their career leading the league being Hit By Pitch.

Hinske for F-Lop and Ryan Freel :)

Hinske for D'Angelo Jiminez

Sigh...

I'm not saying he faked it, I'm not saying doctors lied, I'm not even saying it was not an impressive accomplishment. I'm just saying I do not like the guy for the hype he surrounds himself with and do not appreciate being called out, on day old posts, with an argument of this somehow being more worthy of praise than the many similar and worse injuries played through in the NFL and NHL. No more, no less.

Feel free to worship him as you wish, I will continue to express my dislike of his ego, and we can both have our opinions in peace.

In the end, counterpoint is the spice of life.

Tyler dont compare Schilling to Yzerman! Yzerman is the ultimate team player. He sacrifices his body for the good of team. Schilling is nothing more than an ignorant self promoter. I'd like to see that guy go up against some of the big boys in the NFL. You want to see a player play in pain, the look at Bill Barilko. Schilling doesn ot even come close to his degree of team heroism. All i hope is that the red pen comes off those socks in the washing machine. If not I can just imagine Schilling putting them up in the Boston locker room to remind everyone that he was the ONE responsible for ending the curse. It is hard to believe that after one series, one has more respect for Pedro than Schilling.

Does he really four seemer? Wow....

That's Four Seamer to you, buddy!

He did in fact endorse President Bush on Good Morning America yesterday, and he was supposed to campaign with him today, until the Red Sox owners put the squeeze on him and "talked" him out of it. Apparently the Red Sox have something in common with the Yankees who booed Carlos Delgado: a healthy disrespect for freedom of expression!

A Schilling backlash was as predictable as the sun coming up.

(Of course he's voting for Bush. Who do you think the Bush tax cuts help? At least he's cancelled the public appearance...)

I find the player union stance that all they want in a free market system a load. In a free market we would not have any problem with the Rangers running the Oilers or Flames out of business because we would get our widgets for the lowest price. The notion that we should just let the teams compete against each other in a free market system makes no sense.

The market is not between teams. NHL hockey is 1 sounce of entertainment competing against many other forms of entertainment in a free market. Apparently it is getting its ass kicked by the likes of Britney Spears, the NFL, and Disney.

In order to better compete the NHL has to convince enough people in North America that the have a good product and the it will somehow be rewarding to watch a hockey game. As anyone that is a fan of a team in the bottom half of the revenue will attest, you are at times hesitant to fork over $120 to watch you team get beat by the Toronto Maple Leaf's and the 3 guys that used to play for your team before they got too expensive.

Some Leafs fans will say: "Too bad, if there are not enough fans in a particular market or its residents cannot afford to pay high ticket prices then let their team fold. Let the Oilers, Flames, maybe the Canucks and bunch of those warm weather teams go under and we will be fine." I expect the Leafs would be fine, they might even win a Staley Cup, but hockey as an industry would be further crippled in its ability to compete as a national game or North American entertainment. The result: less jobs for players, less money for the players.

Bob Goodenow doesn't want a free market system, he just wants to hold out for the best deal within the monopoly that is the NHL. To say the players are not at fault because they were locked out ignores the fact the they knew this was coming years ago and facilitated it just as much as the owners did. This is about money from both sides - I don't see old Bob too worried about the jobs of all the European players or AHL's that have been displaced by NHLers.

I for one am cheering for the owners. In markets like Calgary and Edmonton, the owners are rich but they have taken upon themselves to try to keep the team for the community. In a good year they might make a million dollars - the cost of a fourth line scrapper. If the owners win then there will be better competition, each team will be limited by smarts and innovation, not resources, and have a decent chance each year. And Paul D. don't give your usual Calgary/ Florida in the finals stuff. They made it last year, but where did they finish the last ten years, how long before their best players are gone? Don't they deserve a chance to win it every year?

Sorry Four Seamer, my comments were made in the middle of class and as is obvious, I did not have time to proofread. As pennance I will now write out your name 5 times without copy pasting:

Four Seamer
Four Seamer
Four Seamer
Four Seamer
Four Seamer

Yzerman is the ultimate team player.

Right, the same guy who keeps sucking back 8 million a year, which costs the Wings a shot at keeping Fedorov around, despite the fact that he no longer provides value for the money. Yzerman is also the guy who I blame for the sudden proliferation of players children on the ice after a win. Thanks Steve.

Schilling is nothing more than an ignorant self promoter. I'd like to see that guy go up against some of the big boys in the NFL.

Sure, I'd like to see that too. If the Yankees were fielding a lineup of NFL players, I'll bet Schilling would have no hit them in game 1, despite not having anything. What's that you say? I'm making an asinine argument? So is suggesting that Schilling play football to prove his toughness.

All i hope is that the red pen comes off those socks in the washing machine.

Yeah, who's ever heard of bleeding when sutures pop out? The red pen is clearly the more logical and sane answer.

*Sigh*

I got so many strange looks from people when I discussed the MLB labour situation in 2002, that I've decided to keep my mouth shut about the NHL situation, since my stance is the same:

* The owners need to get their own house in order, not take it off the backs of the players.
* I want the players to get as much money as possible. I pay big bucks to see Alfredsson and Spezza and Hasek (well, not yet), not to watch Melnyk or Bryden sit in their box.
* The free market will correct itself. You only need to look at baseball. Moneyball (and the Marlins) has shown that you don't have to spend a lot to be successful on the field. More and more owners are catching on. I believe that's the real reason Carlos won't be getting $20M (which he would have five years ago). Assuming Zimbalist still holds, success on the field translates directly to revenue dollars, across all markets.
* Back in the NHL, Ottawa has shown that you can be successful and cheap. They claim to be losing money, but my baseball experience has taught be to be suspicious of any sports team's financials (Hello, Mr. Huizenga!) I think it's only a matter of time before enough NHL owners clue in and the salary growth slows.

Unfortunately, in the meantime, I think the union will break before next season would start. More and more players are coming out publicly saying they wouldn't mind a cap if it gets them back to work. This can't be good.

Yzerman is the ultimate team player. He sacrifices his body for the good of team.

And Schilling didn't? You're being very very silly. Would you respect him more if he hadn't pitched?

As a lifelong Detroit Red Wing fan, I take a second seat to no one in my admiration and appreciation of Steve Yzerman. And I don't mind at all if people mention Schilling in the same breath.

Even if he is voting for that lying chimp...

Schilling's decision to vote for Bush makes a hell of a lot more sense than all of the people making 35K a year who sign up to vote for Bush, having bought the idea that Kerry will raise their taxes.

the same guy who keeps sucking back 8 million a year, which costs the Wings a shot at keeping Fedorov around

That's not why. The biggest reason was the distractions in Federov's personal life led him to make some bad economic decisions. He signed with Anaheim for significantly less than what Detroit had offered him in mid-season. The Red Wings changed their minds and took the offer off the table.

I just said I wouldn't talk hockey, but:

As a lifelong Detroit Red Wing fan, I take a second seat to no one in my admiration and appreciation of Steve Yzerman.

You've never met me, obviously. :)
And Fedorov is evil. That is all.

I'm glad my reference to President Bush brought Tyler and Jobu back together!

Although I'm not sure whether you guys are going to be more upset when Delgado signs with the Orioles, or when the President is re-elected next week ;)

And Fedorov is evil. That is all.

Nah. Just a little goofy.

But for years and years, he was the only guy who ever showed up for us in the playoffs. For some reason, he took most of the heat (it wouldn't be his pretty face? his foreign accent?). But don't get me started on the frustrations and heartaches of being a Red Wing fan...

Like they say in Boston, that's all in the past.

Hmm, well I'm hoping the Jays don't sign Delgado, and if he goes to Baltimore, it means he isn't here. As for the election, I'm still thinking Bush popular vote win, Kerry electoral college win. Ohio will be the new Florida, by the way.

Seeing as how the Hinske to Cinci talks seem to be legit, who might be coming back? Or who might JP have asked for?

I'm not sure why they seem to be legit, but I suspect it'd be some minor leaguer we've never heard of.

Magpie, am I right in thinking you've got some sort of connection to the Jays, or is that a figment of my imagination?

I just want to say that today was an aberration, and I will no longer discuss hockey here in the future. I'm looking forward to discussing baseball from now on.

And I'm looking forward to the day when pants will finally be considered optional.

Ohio will be the new Florida, by the way.

You mean where Kerry will selectively ask for recounts in Democratic districts in the hopes of having his lawyers win in a courtroom an election he lost at the ballot box? You may be right, but by the amount of voter fraud currently being reported, I'd put my money on Wisconsin.

Fedorov is a joke. He rather live it up in California then train and actually help his team become more successful.
Tyler how dare u disrespect Yzerman. This is a guy who has played for the Same team for 20 YEARS. Unlike Mr.Schilling, Steve doesnt have team executives fly to his house, to offer him asm uch money as they can. Steve doesnt tell his coach who to play, he doesnt tell his GM who should be manager ( your on the wook for two Rolex's Mr.Francona), and he doesnt alienate the other star players on his team.
And maybe with the Rolex's Schilling recieves from Francona, I'm sure he could make a charitable contribution the wonderful hospital employees who were mesmerized over his poped out sutures!

You mean where Kerry will selectively ask for recounts in Democratic districts in the hopes of having his lawyers win in a courtroom an election he lost at the ballot box?

I was thinking more specifically about Republican intimidation of black voters and attempts to deny them the right to vote when they show up to do so, but I suppose it all leads down the same path...

Ugh, politics??!! Go back to hockey for God's sakes. ;)

I like baseball and hockey. Being a Jays fan kind of sucks right now, but being a Canucks fan is worse. Nazzy better not go back to Sweden.
:(

Ummmm, this has already been discussed, but would you guys like to have Kevin Millar next year as a (relatively) cheap 1B? I wonder if maybe Wakefield could retire and then maybe the Jays could get Mirabelli. That guy is pretty underrated as a hitter (great power.)

Both those Sox interest me somewhat.

Just to change gears. Seeing as how the Hinske to Cinci talks seem to be legit, who might be coming back? Or who might JP have asked for?

Graves? Casey? Other?

Graves is due $6 million in 2005 and he's not that good of a pitcher so I don't think you're gaining much there although he's off the books after that. Casey on the other hand is due $7.8 million in 2005 and the Reds just guaranteed his $8.5 million option in 2006. So if you trade for him you better be sure his tremendous 2004 season at age 30 wasn't a fluke.

I think the Reds guaranteed Casey's option to keep a recognizable face around after Larkin was let go. I don't think they'll be in a hurry to trade him anyway.

There's probably any number of other attractive options on the Reds from the Jays' standpoint. Maybe a package of Jose Acevedo and Ryan Wagner. Or maybe you think bigger and put together a package for Kearns or Dunn.

Well, I'm off to work. Try not to burn the place down with flames while I'm gone. (Jays Roundup - On the talk back show. It's like he's got ESP).

Don't touch any of my stuff while I'm gone..... Jsoh.

is that a figment of my imagination?

Yes.

I do spend a fair bit of time in the Jays press box. I score games for STATS.

I'm looking forward to the day when pants will finally be considered optional.

Me too. Its a Hillbilly Zombie world.

[Federov] rather live it up in California then train and actually help his team become more successful.

Well, I know I would.

As Red Wing fans, all we have to say to Federov is "Thank You for the three Stanley Cups. I really doubt we'd have them without you."

Republican intimidation

Given the age of the average Republican, it might look a little something like this:

Maybe a package of Jose Acevedo and Ryan Wagner. Or maybe you think bigger and put together a package for Kearns or Dunn.

I really don't want to include Vernon Wells in the package with Eric Hinske.

I also think the Jays would get a low end prospect that will never make the majors for Hinske.

But don't get me started on the frustrations and heartaches of being a Red Wing fan...

Well, it's not that bad...
With respect to a winning team, there are no frustrations.
With respect to running into mediocre goalies who turn into Tretiak in the playoffs, there are many.

It's weird...I hate talking hockey, but I can discuss the Red Wings with no problem. I don't watch hockey, ever, especially if the MFML's are on, but I'll watch Detroit @ Columbus if TSN decides to pre-empt RAW IS WAR on a Wednesday night.

Does that make you the official scorer magpie?

I'm not sure why they seem to be legit

I think the Cincy GM confirmed that they had talked. Im not saying it's going to happen, not even close, just speculating as to what names they might have thrown around.

maybe the Jays could get Mirabelli. That guy is pretty underrated as a hitter (great power.)

I like Mirabelli, but he is 34 years old. He's older than Varitek, in other words. He doesn't have great power when he's not batting against Ted Lilly; he has 41 career HRs in 1023 at bats, and a .241 lifetime average.

I honestly believe Kevin Cash - still - has a chance to be an equivalent hitter.

OK, now I have to fly. Don't touch any of my stuff, either.

Because I will be checking....

Also, I think if Hinske gets traded, the Jays will essentially get nothing back.

On the other hand, I could say the Jays including some young pitchers and making a bigger deal out of it.

Ryan, I apparenlty forgot to quote your statement. It was about the luxury cap being the best solution.

Small market teams make it deep in the playoffs every year in the NHL.

I keep saying this. 2002-2004, twelve DIFFERENT teams in the Conference finals. Not among the 12 - Dallas, NYR, St.Louis, etc.

If that's not parity, I don't know what is. I'm sure that that's driving Bettman nuts, because if the Wings or Rangers had been in the finals three straight years, you know that we'd be hearing that the reason for the lockouts would be to get a more "even playing field", that they were taking action to help out the small-payroll teams.

That's exactly the kind of line the Owners were using in their banter over the past few seasons. They wanted to restore "fiscal sanity" for the sake of the fans. Too bad they can't use it now...

Don't touch any of my stuff while I'm gone..... Jsoh

(sneaks over and swaps Jobu's stuff with Magpie's, taking the time to note the addresses where Jobu sends his alimony cheques to)

It all boils down to this:

The players union (actually presently run by their agents) know that NHL revenues are declining in most markets and therefore will not commit to a cap tied to revenues. The agents have to save face by making sure that the salaries of the star players, whom they care most about, stay about the same.

The NHL has foolishly expanded to franchises that are loosing money. To save face, Bettman's revenue sharing is directed towards propping up these franchises so that they appear to be making money.

All the rest of the rhetoric between the players and the union is bull shit.

Sorry, I meant to say "the rhetoric between the players and the owners"

Hey GT how many of those 12 teams made the playoffs the next year? Teams simply do not have the resources to keep their players. Those teams you mentioned were all one hit wonders.
And if you ask me, baseball has a bigger problem. When the payroll discreptancy between the top spending team and the bottom spending team is around 170 million bucks, you know someting is outta whack. I've said this before, but unless baseball overhauls the way it does its business, or unless the jays switch divisions, they will not make the playoffs.

http://tsf.waymoresports.thestar.com/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?2825
On the other hand, I could say the Jays including some young pitchers and making a bigger deal out of it.

I'd more than happily throw in a mid-level pitching prospect to get Austin Kearns (COMN for minor league stats)- his stock is as low as it'll get. And he looks like a better hitter than Rios or Gross, perhaps on Vern's level. He does strike out a lot, and apparently JP has a thing against that now. Which is of course another issue...

This team needs a star hitter though, and Kearns has that potential. The thumb's a problem, but he wouldn't be available if it wasn't...

I would include someone of value, Chacin comes to mind, with Hinske in a deal, if the other team is willing to take most or all of Hinske's salary. The Reds need pitching, and may find someone like Chacin to be valuable. That clearly depends on how the Jays feel about Chacin. When I saw him pitch, he's not overpowering, and looks like a bottom of the rotation pitcher. His value can't get any higher.

Hinske and Chacin for Freel and Gabe White? Just throwing out ideas here.

Hey GT how many of those 12 teams made the playoffs the next year? Teams simply do not have the resources to keep their players. Those teams you mentioned were all one hit wonders.

If the argument goes that there should be more parity, then in any given year, anyone can make the playoffs and go deep in them, then you'll see more, not less, one-hit wonders. If there is a salary cap, then teams will still not have the resources to keep the players, since resources will be capped. One needs only to look at the NFL to see this.

Hinske and Chacin for Freel and Gabe White? Just throwing out ideas here.

Freel was one of those guys I didn't understand not keeping around. That's just me.

Quantrill's option was declined by the yankees. Would the jays have any interest at the right price?

If he gave them the "hometown discount" why not?

If the Jays traded Chacin, I'd want them to get a young player with upside in return. Whether that's part of a Kearns package or straight up for a power arm like Wagner.

The Yankees declined Quantrill's option for 2006. He's still signed with the Yankees for 2005.

(.... still working on the HTML thing)

" I also think the Jays would get a low end prospect that will never make the majors for Hinske. "

That's Ok by me as long as they take on his contract. See Gonzalez, Alex.

Does anyone have a FAQ for posting Bold and Italics? Or anything else they need to know on this site. As far as LOOG, COMN, etc.

Ok, what's new...hey....these aren't my pants.

Braby there's a FAQ for stuff like that. Top left corner under Box Navigation. Scroll down a little and you'll find it.

Brady - left hand side, top of the page, there's a section called FAQ (go figure).

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/radio/mlb_radio_index.jsp
There is baseball being played right now -- and it's on the radio! COMN for link. It's Arizona Fall League action, Phoenix Desert Dogs vs. Peoria Saguaros.

Hill just made a nice diving play to his left. Big Vito is at first. And now, Hill turns a 6-4-3 double play with Sanchez and Chiaravalotti. Nice time to tune in to the game, with Aaron Hill flashing leather.

After 7.5, It's 10-2 Peoria (the team with the Jays prospects). Apparently, there was a 9-run inning somewhere in the first seven innings. I didn't know there was a radio feed for AFL games. Looks like the BBRadio Minor League Network has some offseason work to do. ;)

Aaron Hill (single, walk, run) up now with two men on, who both reached thanks to 3B errors by Teahen. Yes, back-to-back errors.

Hill swings at a few pitches, then goes down on a 1-2 pitch.
Hattig quickly down 0-2, then he works the count full and walks.
The third Blue Jay prospect in a row steps in, Vito Chiaravalotti, who had two hits all by himself in the seventh. He grounds into a double play here, though. Inning over.

For future reference, the Saguaros are on MLB Radio on the following dates: November 2, 4, 10, 15, 18.

http://www.stats.com/
Does that make you the official scorer

Hello, Tyler. No - the official scorer is hired directly by the home team. Its typically a retired reporter, like Neil McCarl in Toronto. Neil was one of the original guys covering the Jays when they started up - he used to the Toronto Star's main baseball writer. He's retired from all that now, because he is getting on, as they say. But this gets him out to the ball park, which is nice I guess. Actually, Lou Cauz and Joe Sawchuk probably do most of Jays home games.

Anyway, the official scorer keeps the official record of the game - hits, runs, fielding plays etc. - and he or she (I'm sure there are women in some ballpark somewhere) is the one who makes the scoring judgements - was that a hit or an error? was it a passed ball or a wild pitch? And on occasion, the official scorer actually has to decide who is the winning pitcher. There are rules for wins and losses and saves, but there are circumstances when the winning pitcher is up to the official scorer's discretion.

The official scorer is not to be confused with the person scoring the game for mlb.com; that scorer assembles a much more detailed account of the game, which is transmitted over the internet in real time via GameDay. Unlike the official scorer, the mlb scorer is recording every pitch. I happen to sit beside that guy, and we compare our accounts every half inning. It's not required, we just find it helpful to double-check ourselves.

And I record every pitch and every fielding play (and where the ball was hit and how hard) and a range of other stuff for STATS Inc. STATS is a private company that has provided data for some MLB teams in the past, and currently provides real-time information for its clients (Associated Press, for example), data that is used on broadcasts (scan the credits carefully, you will see the STATS logo), and for its own range of publications and stuff.

There is a website you can visit (COMN), but I'm not going to share the Top-Secret Heavily Classified Closely Guarded user name and password that we get to use!

Ah I see. So I should direct my irritation about some of the scoring decisions elsewhere then. Sounds like a great job by the way...I'm very envious.

I'm still figuring out this HTML my own self. The FAQ shows you how to use italics, and you can extend that to bold. My better half knows HTML much better than I do, and she showed me how to put up a picture (which made me very happy) - and I keep the coding for that on a Post-It attached to the monitor.

I don't know how these guys are crossing out text. I stand in awe.

And I'm still figuring out the acronyms. OK, we got:

COMN - Click On My Name
IMHO - In My Humble Opinion (I sure hope that's what it means!!)
LOL - Laughing Out Loud (and when I learned that one, I just said...



DOH!!

STATS is a private company that has provided data for some MLB teams in the past

The genesis, of STATS Inc is discussed in Moneyball... Is is reassonably accurate??

In fact.. is the whole book reasonably accurate?? I'm loving it!

OMG, my ASCII didn't work for some reason. o_O

It worked in the preview!!

Damn it, that was a big waste of time.

Please either delete the post above, or somehow fix it so the ASCII displays the < > tags instead of using them. :(

Ryan - I don't suppose you can click BACK on your browser, find your post in the preview screen and substitute something innocuous for the <> brackets? Like [] or ()? Or is it too late and gone with the electron wind?

Anybody that thinks the Jays are going to get anything decent for Hinske alone is just setting up themselves for disappointment.

I'm sure the other GM's and scouts around the league know what he's
about. Which isn't a good thing.

At least Delgado looks happy.

http://webmonkey.wired.com/webmonkey/reference/html_cheatsheet/
Magpie (or anyone), if you need an HTML Cheatsheet, why not try...this HTML Cheatsheet? COMN.

I don't know how these guys are crossing out text. I stand in awe.

It's (strike) and (/strike), with the angle brackets.

Ryan's TAGS column above should have shown an example of the HTML code you use to get the required effect. Alas, it worked too well - instead of seeing the actual code, we got what the code does.

HTML codes go within the exponential brackets (the < and the >. The <> invokes the code. You stop it by repeating the <> tag, except with a / preceding the effect.

I will now attempt to duplicate Ryan's tags, except I'm going to use the WRONG bracket, so you can see how it looks.

To make the following happen:

BOLD [b] this would be bold if I was using the correct bracket [/b]

ITALIC [i]this would be italic if I was using the correct bracket [/i]

UNDERLINE [u]this would be underlined if I was using the correct [/u] bracket

CENTER [center] this would be centered if I was using the correct bracket [/center]

CROSSED OUT [strike] this would be crossed out if I was using the correct bracket [/strike]

TEXT SIZE - I'm going to leave that one alone for awhile.

TEXT COLOUR - Ditto.

I kept getting warnings while I was working on that that I was trying to break the code and that system admininstrators had been notified.

I just opened up View Source on my browser and peered through all the HTML that makes up this here web page until I got down to Ryan's section. And I will study that some more until I get a grip on font sizes and colours. Cause that could dome in handy....

It's just me, guys! Trying to help folks with the HTML! Don't come knocking on my door!

Hey, cool! Thanks, Rob!

Damn, yeah. I was all proud of myself too. :(

[font size=1]This would be small if blahblah[/font]
[font color=orange]this would be orange if blahblah[/font]
[a href=http//www.battersbox.ca]this would be a link[/a]
[img src=http://www.battersbox.ca/million4.jpg]this would be the picture of the site banner[/img]

I'm still bummed that my lovely table didn't turn out. I'm somewhat confused because it worked when I previewed it, but not after I posted it.

Sigh, can I have an A for effort?

Let's put it to the test:

Is this big?

Is this blue?


Is this full of pictures of the most beautiful woman in the world?

Is this proof of the preceding?


I think that's a resoundingYES!

Clear to me, anyway. (That's just to make sure everything's off!)

Yes Ryan, you can get an "a" for effort, especially because I now know how to give you one:



Enjoy!

Ryan, to show the formatting using the real brackets, try this:

&-l-t-;
i
&-g-t-;

but remove the dashes and line breaks. It should come out like this:



Repeat for the /i tag at the end of your text:

italics here
becomes
italics here

I copied the HTML from your table into a Word document, and I'm trying to fix it, but it isn't fun. :)

And this is for Magpie, from earlier in the thread, for no reason at all:

After all that...I got owned by the italics.

Never mind about that hint, Ryan. You must have used the same thing.

You're right, it looked fine in the Preview...

Rob, that's what I did. It's called ASCII.

It just didn't work for some reason *shrug*

It didn't work for you either. ;-)

Stevie Wonderful!

OK, back to baseball.

Is Professor Mo Phatt in the house? I was thinking that not only do fans not understand the economics of the game - neither do the owners.

Consider - no one who owns a team anymore started out in the baseball business. The days of the old-time operator are long gone. They all made their money running some other kind of business and then got into baseball. Which they expect to work the same way as what they're used to.

Except owning a baseball team is more like owning a McDonalds franchise than your own restaurant. You don't get to decide what's on your menu. You have little control over your product - you have to supply "major league quality (more or less) baseball."

The other thing that confuses them is the players. They regard them as labour costs. I don't think that's what they are. The coaches, the scouts, the secretaries - they're labour costs. But the players are part of the product - they're the raw material that you use to produce "major league baseball." They are the iron that goes into the plant and gets turned into steel. They are material, not labour.

Mo Phatt, what do you think?

For future reference, the Saguaros are on MLB Radio on the following dates: November 2, 4, 10, 15, 18.

Thanks, Rob. I'm not good on Tuesdays and Thursdays, so the 2nd and 4th are out, but the 10th is another story. I think I'll open up a catch-all AFL thread on Monday, where we can post AFL news. Anyone who wants to do some BBRadio will be able to post there.

Is this full of pictures of the most beautiful woman in the world?

Yikes, she could use a solid meal.

http://me.woot.net
Back to HTML!

The problem with "it worked in preview" is that escaped text (like &gt; and &lt;) is interpreted by web browsers' text edit areas as the characters themselves. The short of it is that Greymatter doesn't do what it needs to do to make things work properly in browsers. To work around Greymatter's problem, I think you can preview, go back to the original posting page, and then post.

ASCII is actually an encoding of text - the 0s and 1s that make up the physical representation of your text within the computer. It's only one of many such encodings, but it's the most common for English text. Entities involving &, a text string, and then the semicolon ; are called just that—entities—and they simply encode the character in a representation that anybody's browser can see.

For example, one of my favourite Greek letters, which we used in my differential equations class, is Xi, encoded as &xi;, and it looks like ξ.

By the way, I wrote the HTML for Batter's Box, so feel free to ask me if you need help :)

Thanks, Joe.

It makes perfect sense to me now. I would have to post it without previewing in order for it to work properly. Once I've previewed it, the ASCII has already been translated. Yeah, I get it.

<center>Test</center>

Turns into

Test

Well, at least I learned some new skills today!

So... how many days til pitchers and catchers report, anyway?

Braby there's a FAQ for stuff like that. Top left corner under Box Navigation. Scroll down a little and you'll find it.

Thanks for helping me out guys, just playing around with it a bit. I didn't realize it was basic HTML, I guess I should probably just burn my computer programming diploma right about...now.

Here's a funny of pic of Aaron Hill doing god knows what in the AFL.

Magpie, since you're around, when does the MLB off season start to get crazy? I've been a Jays fan all of my life, but I haven't paid much attention to the off season is quite some while.

I know a little too much about the NBA offseason, way too much time spent reading rumours everyday in July.

What bout the Jays going after Benitez this off season?

It looks like Aaron Hill is playing mini golf.

What about the Jays packaging Hinske and Batista for Klesko and Burroughs? True, they had low power numbers, but Klesko especially had a good OBP (.399), and Burroughs' wasn't awful (.348). At 33 Klesko's best power days may be behind him; then again, Petco isn't the greatest home run park in the majors.

What about the Jays packaging Hinske and Batista for Klesko and Burroughs?

Somehow I doubt that this would be enough. Burroughs is a fine, fine prospect. He just turned 24. I don't know if he's qualifies as a super-two, but his salary will be less than Hinske's.

Klesko is a reasonable trade target, though. He's in left-field for the Padres, with Nevin at first. That's not an ideal defensive plan (Klesko is 33 and had very little range at 23), and the Padres might be advised to trade Klesko to a team that needs a first baseman, and get themselves a real outfielder.

Hey GT how many of those 12 teams made the playoffs the next year? Teams simply do not have the resources to keep their players.

In the NFL, NO team has the resourcs to keep its players.

That's my point -- from a fan's perspective, things were best when salaries weren't a consideration, and teams could keep players they developed as long as they'd like. That's obviously never going to happen again, nor would I want it to.

IN MLB and the NHL right now, the small revenue teams can't keep all their stars. Fine. But with a salary cap (and floor), nobody can keep all its stars. I personally hate what the cap has done to the NFL, with a ridiculous amount of roster turnover, every team losing players they want to keep (and who want to stay) purely because of "cap considerations".

While an NHL cap would certainly benefit "my" team (the Sens), as a hockey fan, I would not want to see one.

I think the main problem in the NFL is that multi-year contracts are not guaranteed. This absolutely sucks from the player's point-of-view, especially considering the short careers of most football players.

For example, if the Yankees could release Jason Gimabi and not have to pay any of his remaining contract, they'd do it in a heartbeat. And then some other team would sign him to a deal based on his current market value - say 6-8 million a year. That's a big reason why you get so much player movement (it's not only the cap). That and the fact that there are so many players - I'd bet even a hardcore NFL fan couldn't name at least 15 players on one-third of the teams.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1912558
COMN for new Gammons article.

Lots of interesting little bits on player movement.

He said Glaus is gone from the Angels and Durazo is available.

Hopefully JP gets on the phone quickly to his buddy because I would love to see Durazo in a Jays uni although I don't know what Beane would want.

That's a very good point Robert.

Additionally, I think it might be a case of pick your poison, or else try to design a system that has the best parts of the existing systems. In the NFL there is tons of player movement, yes, and it sucks. But teams can keep a core of two or three star players throughout their entire careers without having to worry about losing them to another, richer team. In the NHL you get far less player movement, but with one or two exceptions, the small markets have no chance of keeping any star players once they reach the age of 31.

What's with the lack of roundup today?

I was just going to post that, Ron.

Durazo is a Toronto Blue Jay already. It's only a matter of time.

Nope, he had 100 strikeouts. JP isn't interested.

I highly doubt JP will look at his K's only and dismiss him. Durazo at his age, salary, and production is perfect for the Jays. Hopefully JP inquires about Millar too because there's rumblings he's on the market.

This is the off-season in which JP has money to play with and he better bring some quality players to the Jays. BBatista doesn't count.

I think JP forgives 100 K's when a guy has a career .387 OBP and came "this close" to .400 this season. The only Jay's starter who came within shouting distance of that this year was Delgado at .372 OBP.

Ever look at a couple stats and say to yourself "That can't be right". Well I just had one of those moments:

Delgado -- 458 AB - .269 BA - .372 OBP - .907 OPS
Menechino- 236 AB - .301 BA - .400 OBP - .904 OPS

Delgado -- 458 AB - .269 BA - .372 OBP - .907 OPS
Menechino- 236 AB - .301 BA - .400 OBP - .904 OPS

It would seem to suggest that shaved heads produce super baseball powers, but then Woody has to go and screw up the theory.

The real reason is because of the big league chew in the side of his mouth that gives him man-pop!

Someone needs to do a correlation study between shaved heads, perfect teeth, and big leauge chew to OBP.

Its much more important for JP to go after Glaus then Durazo - you can find a plus 800 ops 1B anywhere, Glaus would upgrade the team immensly.

Here is what I would liek to see
I would like to see Glaus signed
JP does something w/ Hinske to get R.Howard to DH and fill in at 1st
Put Batista back in the rotation.
Keep Delgado at 7.5 - 8.5 M - he wants to stay - this would mean they can't go after any free agents but really if the Jays have a middle of the order of:
Wells
Delgado
Glaus
Rios
Howard

this team would RAKE...and I fully expect Halladay and Lilly to be spectacular..and Bush to be Solid (3.80 era) I think this would be a 90 win team

I highly doubt JP will look at his K's only and dismiss him.

Warning: long post ahead. Adjust your monitor settings accordingly.

Durazo struck out 104 times in 511 AB's, or 0.203 K/AB. Will JP care about the strikeouts if Durazo posts his usual .380/.500? As far as I can tell, he has between 4 and 5 years of service time, and he has no contract for next year. It's anyone's guess how much he will be paid after a good 2003, in which he made $2.1 MM.

Let's look at who JP has acquired, and see if the strikeouts have anything to do with it:

Eric Hinske had 113 K vs 54 walks for Sacramento (AAA-2001) in 121 games. He was one of Ricciardi's favourite minor leaguers, if I'm not mistaken. His K/AB rate was 0.26 that year.

Frank Catalanotto, did not play a full 2002 season, but his K/AB was much lower, at 0.13. In 2001, it was 0.12, and his career rate is 0.14, so it appears that he strikes out much less than Hinske.

Greg Myers: 0.18.

Bobby Kielty was acquired for Oakland, really. Nonetheless, his career rate is 0.22 and 0.16 prior to his arrival in Toronto.

(Berg, Gomez, Zaun, Bordick, etc. were not signed for their offense, but to be role players and were not included.)

Ranking the players from highest to lowest "strikeout rate before becoming a Blue Jay":
Hinske 0.26 (AAA 2001)
Myers 0.18 (career)
Kielty 0.16 (career)
Catalanotto 0.14 (career)

Only two of those players have contracts for next season with Toronto, and they happen to be the highest and lowest players in the study.

Hinske was locked up long-term after 2002, a season with 138 strikeouts. Does this mean JP doesn't care about the K's, or is he just overestimating the value of his "pet player"?

My conclusion would be that JP doesn't care about strikeouts, as long as the production doesn't suffer. One could point to the trading of Josh Phelps as an example to disprove this, but let's look at his numbers, 2002-2004:
OBP: .362, .358, .296
SLG: .562, .470, .417
G/F: 0.97, 1.37, 2.03
In short, he was not getting on base as much, losing his power, and hitting a TON of ground balls. His K/AB rate: 0.31, 0.29, 0.25. So he's actually striking out less frequently, not more often, as I (and probably many others) assumed.

So, after all that, I think Durazo would be a good fit on the Blue Jays, assuming Cat can play LF 130 times a year or more.

****

This: Keep Delgado at 7.5 - 8.5 M - he wants to stay - this would mean they can't go after any free agents
doesn't really fit with:
I would like to see Glaus signed

JP does something w/ Hinske to get R.Howard to DH and fill in at 1st

Well I dont know if he has the skills to play 1B, but Im sure Ron Howard could make an awesome movie about the team :)

In response to the comments on Klesko and Burroughs, here are their salaries courtesy of Dugout Dollars.

Nope, he had 100 strikeouts. JP isn't interested.

Strikeouts are just fine for a player who's batting eye is already developed and has been demonstrated. A strikeout is worth more than an out created on a batted ball in play. A strikeout has a value of exactly one out, whereas the possibility of a double play brings the value for an out on a ball in play to worse than just one out (and no, the possibility of moving runners along does not make up the difference). My apologies to anyone who has seen me write this exact paragraph a few times on Da Box.

You don't have to tell me that.

JP has been preaching since the end of the season about how the team strikes out too much and how he wants to improve the strikeouts and blah blah.

Read my comment more closely. I wouldn't be opposed to gettting Durazo at all. I'd love it.

Whenever JP Ricciardi is asked about improving the team, he says the same thing:

"We need to tone down the strikeouts."

You might think he would look the other way when it comes to Erubiel Durazo, but I wouldn't be so fast. I certainly would love to have him. Most of you would too, but would JP? After all the talk he's given about how he's "concerned about the strikeouts"?

I don't know.

Strikeouts are just fine for a player who's batting eye is already developed and has been demonstrated. A strikeout is worth more than an out created on a batted ball in play

I don't quite agree with that in the sense that it is not known what the outcome of a ball in play will be until the play is complete. Strikeouts (always outs) are the converse of home runs (always hits). When a ball is put in play, it most often results in one out, sometimes in a hit and occasionally in two outs. A ball in play is better than a strikeout.

What is important is the ratio of strikeouts and home runs to plate appearances. It is very hard to succeed as a hitter with 120 strikeouts and 7 home runs in 600 PAs, but quite common to succeed with 140 strikeouts and 30 homers in 600 PAs. In other words, I'd like three Adam Dunns please.

Durazo doesn't strike out that much. He's no Werth or Phelps. I think JP would have interest in Durazo, and considering it's the A's were talking about, a deal is probably being discussed as we type.

Though, I completely agree about JP's phobia with strike outs. Like it or not, it's legitimate.

Look at his draft picks: Adams, Hill, Tingler, etc, all these guys don't strike out a lot. The core of the Blue Jays right now is Wells, Rios, Cat, Hudson, and Adams. Neither of these guys strike out that much. Hinske is on the chopping block.

Within 2 years, the Blue Jays will strike out the least amount of times in baseball. Book it. Whether that's a good thing or not remains to be seen.

I will gladly take the strike-outs if power comes along in the same package.

I wouldn't turn down having World Series MVP ManRam on my team (not taking into consideration his salary) or a player like Thome.

Most power hitters strike out quite a bit.

The thing I find strange is that JP likes power and patience yet the Jays don't have either qualities right now.

Yeah.

Around what time are things actually going to start happening? Heh.

JP likes power and patience yet the Jays don't have either qualities right now.

When has JP ever said this, though? Everybody always assumes J.P. holds that attitude because he's from the Oakland organization, but I've never heard him say it.

I have heard him say (on Mike Wilner's excellent show) that he likes hitters with good pitch selection, can put the ball in play (a.k.a. don't strike out), and are willing to take a walk. That's sort of the same thing, but I couldn't see J.P. put out a beer league slowpitch team like the '99 Athletics out there. He's got too much of a scouting background for that, in my opinion.

I read a comment about JP last year (don't remember which site) where he said he likes hitters who have command of the strike zone and can drive the ball.

Of course drive the ball could mean doubles but it seems like this is just like the 5 year plan talk. It's just something floated out there.

Even going away from the power and patience talk I know JP was widely regarded as a talent evaluator and I'm surprised he hasn't been able to pluck away any minor league players from other teams that have helped the Jays.

I hear a lot of hype about JP yet I don't see the results. It doesn't help that he started to show a real "I feel defeated" attitude towards the end of last season.

Oh well JP has for the first time as the Jays GM money to spend on the FA market. I don't know every other teams budget but I'm willing to guess the Jays are in top 12 in terms of wiggle room to add to the payroll. I'm actually exciitied about this off-season.

Oh lord....

When they say "don't mix drinks" they weren't kidding.

The Hillbilly Zombie.

http://www.battersbox.ca/archives/00000912.shtml
JP likes power and patience yet the Jays don't have either qualities right now.

When has JP ever said this, though? Everybody always assumes J.P. holds that attitude because he's from the Oakland organization, but I've never heard him say it.

From the original Batter's Box interview with JP (COMN):

JPR: We’re looking for the complete player, but we have a $50 million payroll, and sometimes you don’t get everything. We have to think of where we play, and what’s important to us – we need to be able to score runs, and we need to be able to pitch. We’re going to put all our resources into offence, especially on-base percentage, and pitching. That may mean we’re a little short defensively in some areas, which we don’t want to be, but again, if I had a hundred million dollar payroll, I could address most things a little easier.

We’re going to put all our resources into offence,

"Offence", clearly does not equal "power"

Strikeouts are just fine for a player who's batting eye is already developed and has been demonstrated. A strikeout is worth more than an out created on a batted ball in play

In Moneyball they make an interesting comment...

They "lie" to the players to tell them that striking out is ok, because they want them being selective, so "the fear of strikeouts is damaging"... however they consider the strike to be a "wasted at bat" because there is no opportunity to advance a runner etc...

http://www.nypost.com/sports/33028.htm
COMN for a NYpost article linking the Blue Jays to Zito. I know it is the Post but there is not much else to read these days.

J.P. has mentioned he likes on base percentage and "controlling the strikezone". And how much he hates strikeouts. Keep in mind that batting average is the biggest part of OBP (walks being the other).

"Offence", clearly does not equal "power"

I was pulling the quote for the OBP portion. I know JP's spoken of power before, just couldn't find a quote.

I was pulling the quote for the OBP portion. I know JP's spoken of power before, just couldn't find a quote.

I kind of hope he hasn't talked about it, because then his words wouldn't mesh with his choice of hitting coaches. Hitting for power seems to have little to do with the type of hitting instruction the players receive. Most of the great 90's power hitters (Bonds, McGwire, Vaughn x2) crowded the plate and pulling the ball over the fence on even outside pitches. The Jays hitting instruction seems to be all about looking for an outside fastball and driving it the other way in the gap for a double, and hitting the occasional (20 or so a year) accidental homerun when a fastball runs middle-in.

I like the second approach as it works really well for someone with my build. The problem is that unless you're Frank Thomas, you're going to have trouble constitently hitting 30+ homeruns with a quasi-Lau/Hriniak style approach. Wells may be able to do it, but time will tell.

Why does one have to prefer a particular 'type' of hitter? The idea is assinine. Why not just prefer good hitters? Can't Ricciardi just say I like players with a high VORP?