Vernon Wells!

Frequent poster Rob with your FAN update:

It's raining in St. Louis, the tarp is still out there. No BP yet for either team yet, and the game will be delayed 60-90 minutes. So it's the Rain Delay Show with Mike Wilner!

Wilner's guest will be Vernon Wells tonight.

Mike, I doubt you're reading, considering you've got a rain-out show to do, but is there any word whether you guys managed to get Delgado for this week? I heard its Wells, then Halladay, and you were trying for Carlos...

any updates are appreciated

Vernon Wells!

Senior or Junior? :)

Either way, excellent stuff!

Oy, a broch! Wilner beats me to the post. I hang my head in shame...Just kidding, Mike. A gezunt dir in pupik, and all that stuff.
(Apologies, my Jewish is rusty.)

Senior or Junior?

Actually, Senior is Junior. Our V-Dub is VW the 3rd.

Jewish? Is that some combination of Hebrew and Yiddish? :)

Can anyone confirm about the game being delayed? If it's going to be 90 minutes late, I will go to sleep for 3 hours and get up again in time. (It's midnight local time and my sleep is totally wrecked at the moment.)

http://members.tripod.com/talk_jewish/id19.htm
It's the first Google result for "Jewish phrases", actually. COMN.
When I say "rusty," I mean "nonexistant." :)

It looks like Yiddish. My girlfriend can read/speak a little, since it's similar to both Danish and German, two languages she's fairly fluent in.

Heh. The Vernon Wells Phone Switch, live on the FAN. He must have been on a portable phone at his fancy house in Texas (I saw it in the offseason documentary, wow, the gadgets he has).

V-Dub sure has to answer a lot of questions about "smallball." I wonder how many people actually know what they're talking about when they ask these questions.

And yes, I just realized that I invented a language called "Jewish." Consider Rob red-faced. Or red-font-typed, whatever the Internet message board equivalent is. :$ is the smiley for embarrased, I suppose...

Moffatt, this is completely off topic, but I saw John Helliwell in Waterloo today give a lunch about the economics of Happiness.
I have no idea if he's doing some sort of tour and will be at Western/London this week, but if so, see him. It was extremely interesting, especially for a Macro type discussion.

Is he still at UBC? I've heard of him, but never met him or been to onee of his talks.

Is he still at UBC?

I'm not really sure, I think he's sort of an honorary guy there now. He was at Harvard for 3 years, which I guess is where he did most of his current research.

Actually, Rob, the literal Yiddish translation of the word "Yiddish" is "Jewish", so you haven't made up a new language at all! Thank you for wishing me health in my belly button, by the way.

This is hot music on Sportsnet to go with the introduction... I wonder if they have a soundtrack available.

(wow, the batboys got a mention!!)

I loved the introductions in Boston. So many great moments:

The bat boys getting their .08 minutes of fame
Terry Adams being introduced on the Red Sox roster (I half-expected to see Byung-Hyun Kim standing next to him)
Third base coach Dale "I brain-cramped" Sveum laughing as he was booed more than any Cardinal.

Wells gave a fine interview. He is obviously a thoughtful and quietly determined man. He is going to be fine, as long as he avoids serious injury.

Man-Ram! Will the Cards ever lead a game in this series?

If the payroll is 60 mil, than how will they not be able to afford Delgado?

That wasn't challenging Manny's arm. That was insulting it.

What were they thinking?

Since when did Manny have a gun for an arm?

Good question.

Money due next year (from Dugout Dollars)
Batista: 4.75 million
Halladay: 10.5 million
Hinske: 3 million
Ligtenberg: 2.5 million
Lilly: 3.1 million
Wells: 2.9 million

Totals: 26.75 million.

Add:
Frankie Cat: 2.7 million

Total: 29.45

Add Delgado at (I guess) 10 million

Total: 39.45 million

Okay, the Jays have 20 million left-over. Now, what players were on Toronto this year, but not on next year's payroll?

Dave Berg, Kevin Cash, Vinnie Chulk, Valerio de Los Santos, Sean Douglass, Bob File, Jason Frasor, Chris Gomez, John-Ford Griffin, Gabe Gross, Jesse Harper, Pat Hentgen, Orlando Hudson, Reed Johnson,
Aquilino Lopez, Dustin McGowan, Frank Menechino, Greg Myers, Josh Phelps, Simon Pond, Guillermo Quiroz, Alexis Rios, Francisco Rosario,
Jorge Sequea, Justin Speier, Josh Towers, Chris Woodward, Gregg Zaun, and any other player that Dugout Dollars and I have ignored.

That's 28 players. They include: the top three utility men, the young set-up guy and closer, the (injured) LOOGY, the 7th starter, a couple disposable bullpen guys, our top (sorta) bullpen guy, our 5th starter, starting (then not-starting) shortstop, and the catchers. Most of them will be back, but most of them (notably Hudson and Speier) will be due more money, some of them will be replaced with more effective players, etc. I'm not going to guess how much money is needed, but I'd guess that having 20 million would hurt the chances of effectively filling the gaps.

Manny Ramirez has spent most of his career playing RF, and rang up as many as 19 BaseRunner Kills while with Cleveland. He's been in double figures 4 times, once while playing LF in Boston. He can throw.

Wow... I didn't know how joyful it is to watch baseball without FOX commentary...

"Thank goodness that ugly stuff is history" - Announcers referring to Astroturf.

Doesn't Skydome and Metrodome still have turf?

Wow it's wet out there. Nixon did stand a chance of not falling on Renteria's 2B. Funny stuff.

Doesn't Skydome and Metrodome still have turf?

Skydome is the last place with "that ugly stuff".

Metrodome got FieldTurf this year.

Tampa Bay has FieldTurf.

Montreal had FieldTurf.

Even the Argonauts have FieldTurf.

Can't the Jays please spend the roughly $1M and get FieldTurf for '05?

Yikes... what happened there? For team with great base running histroy whole season, suppan just blundered, large!
On the other than, great look by Ortiz!

The Cardinals were the best baserunning team I saw this year in the majors (and I've seen a lot of baseball). I'm not talking about stolen bases, but rather taking the extra base on hits, taging up of fly balls and making wise decisions.

I think you jinxed them!

Can't the Jays please spend the roughly $1M and get FieldTurf for '05?

I guess, Jays didn't want to go even deeper in the red.... either that or Sportsco and Jays have contract where Sportsco is responsible for field... who knows... but I think, it's about time they did something about that.

this series has striking resemblence to the ALCS. I wonder what will happen if the Red Sox go up 3-0?

Thank you for wishing me health in my belly button, by the way.

Oh, please. Don't thank me. Thank Google!

"Google. Don't be evil."

David Ortiz played quite a few games as 1B this year and last year...
years g fpct
2004 34 .986
2003 45 .992

I know it's been some times since he held a 1B glove, but I don't think he was that bad...

If the Sox win the big one, what do you think they will do in the offseason?

If the Sox win the big one, what do you think they will do in the offseason?

I think Theo will cut some cost, but not much...

1. Let Pedro and DLowe walk...
2. Sign Tek and Cabrera...
3. Go after Pavano and FA lefty starter...

73 pitches for Pedro through 5 innings. He should be good for 7 innings tonight. Top of the lineup up, so showtime.

Cunning strategy to walk Pedro! When was the last time he ran the bases in a game?

Looking at baseball-reference, the answer is 2002, when he walked in an interleague game. If not, 1997 with the Expos.

That fly broken ban toward Pedro got me thinking....

Did anyone ever get speared by broken bat in Major League history?

I think I know the script.

Boston makes the greatest comeback in postseason history, as they advance to the World Series, only to equal the greatest collapse in postseason history set by the Yankees the previous round.

Babe toying with Red Sox fans. The curse lives on.

Did anyone ever get speared by broken bat in Major League history?

Well, there was Steve Yeager, of course.

2004 34 .986
2003 45 .992

A 1B's fielding pct doesn't mean much of anything. Still, those are not good numbers...

Boston makes the greatest comeback in postseason history, as they advance to the World Series, only to equal the greatest collapse in postseason history set by the Yankees the previous round.

I really hate the Red Sox, but I don't think I would even wish that on them lol.

Yeah, ok, I can :)

McCarver "baseball is the number 3 sport in Colombia, behind soccer and Formula 1 racing..."

I'm sure Formula 1 is popular, but I don't think there are lots of kids playing it...

Okay, I know what he meant.

But Formula 1 is popular the way Star Wars is popular - as a spectacle. But how many of us are staying out after school and working on our light saber technique?

I stepped away from the TV/radio for a few innings and caught up with the pitch-by-pitch commentary over at Mike's Baseball Rants (link).

That could become an infamous play. Suppan’s Boner—The Soup Bone.

A 1B's fielding pct doesn't mean much of anything. Still, those are not good numbers...

Yeah... Fielding pct doesn't tell much about fielding... well, other than that they could catch the ball with the glove, but...

Albert PooHoles

2004 .992

I don't know... pretty comparable...

But how many of us are staying out after school and working on our light saber technique?

What? you didn't have light sabre class in school? I thought it was mendatory for all Jedi recruits.

Jedi practice? I had no time for that! I was too busy figuring out how to transform into a yellow volkswagen bug. Never did get the hang of it.

you didn't have light sabre class in school?

Well, it was a long time ago in a province kind of far away...

.992 is not a very good fielding pct. for a 1B, but nobody cares anyway. The difference in fielding pct between Pujols (.994 actually) who is indeed near the bottom of the NL in fielding pct and Todd Helton (.997) who is near the top - well, its just too trivial to care about. Its six extra errors. A difference of six plays over more than 1300 chances.

Whereas the differences in range are likely to be far more significant from top to bottom than six plays a year. And Pujols has pretty decent range and a strong arm - he's a good enough defensive player to get by at both 3B and the OF.

differences in range are likely to be far more significant from top to bottom than six plays a year.

Wow. Is that ever mealy-mouthed. Let me rephrase.

I GUARANTEE that differences in range from top to bottom will amount to considerably more than six plays a year

Magpie,

I GUARANTEE that differences in range from top to bottom will amount to considerably more than six plays a year

I bow to your superior intellect and reasoning.... But that intellect and reasoning says nothing of your attempts to transform into BUMBLEBEE!!!

7 innings, 98 pitches for Pedro.

Last inning, I would probably have pinch-hit Millar for Mueller (bringing in Pokey Reese to play second and moving Bellhorn to third). Millar has no platoon differential, while Mueller, although he is a switch-hitter, fares considerably better against righties. I don't think it's going to make a difference tonight.

FOX must be destroyed. That is all.

I bow to your superior intellect and reasoning

You know, I don't hear that nearly as often as I like... and I never get tired of it.

Bumblebee? I'm not getting something here... and I'm afraid that revealing this ignorance will destory all my new-found credibilty...

Manny early pick for Series MVP?

Well, if you were planning to pinch-hit Kapler for Nixon leading off the eighth and to pinch-hit for Martinez (with Millar yet) with 2 out and nobody on, I can't understand why you wouldn't pinch-hit Millar for Mueller with the bases loaded, 1 out and King on the mound. Mueller's not your ideal defensive third baseman, so I don't really see the downside.

yellow volkswagen bug = Bumblebee

But I realize that wasn't you... Too many people post with their name starting with "M"

My bad

Mueller's not your ideal defensive third baseman

Got a bit of a flair for under-statement there yourself...

I'm trying to recall Burley's prediction for the WS. Something like the exact opposite of what has happened, right?

*crickets chirping*

I'm trying to recall Burley's prediction for the WS. Something like the exact opposite of what has happened, right?

Oooh!! Ooooh!! He's dissin' you, man! You gonna let him get away with it?

Hey Lime

Normally I hate the Red Sox because, well i'm a Jays man, but this is it for the curse. The Sox will win and deserve to win because they are the best team, and this is their time. I kinda believe in the curse but whatever you want to call it, its over.

After Delgado, who is the #1 guy that works for the Jays finacially, and would really help this team? I'm having trouble finding him

I'm trying to recall Burley's prediction for the WS. Something like the exact opposite of what has happened, right?

If you're talking way back in April, then here are Craig's predictions:

AL Champs          NL Champs         WS Champs
Boston Red Sox     Houston Astros    Houston Astros

Well, he was 1-for-2.
His division/WC picks? Boston, Minny, Oakland, New York, Atlanta, Houston, LA, St. Louis. 6 teams out of 8 there, with a few flip-flops between WC and Division Winner.

You probably mean his latest prediction, which I don't know offhand.

On a related note, Googlefight predicts Boston will win.

http://www.battersbox.ca/archives/00002545.shtml#254510
Here is Craig's pick from last Friday. COMN.

Cards in five? Yeah, uh...no. ;)

"I can be anybody's daddy any day"

I love this guy.

Pedro obviously benefitted from the long rest, and was more or less his usual self. Dominating pitching is a key ingredient of many WS champs, although not, by any means, the only one. I still would not be surprised at all if this series goes back to Boston.

You know... one of these days, someone's going to come out and say:

"First of all, Kevin, I like to thank my dark, evil lord, the satan..."

"...and all hail Seligula!"

Interesting to see how much the Red Sox are going to offer Pedro after this season is over.

Heck I wonder if the Red Sox will have the same passion next year to win after winning it all this season.

Hopefully they don't go on a huge FA spending spree.

Wow....I can't believe Boston is going to win the world series. This is just odd. What are they going to complain about everyday? They wont be loveable hard luck losers, they'll just be another team that buys its way to a championship.

I am as big a believer as you'll find in the camp of those who believe that MLB is creaking towards a de facto Premiership, aka English football where you have a super league with those clubs able to spend a large amount on player salaries well above and beyond. I also believe this is not a healthy development for fans of professional sports leagues who most want to have a system where healthy competition amongst all the member clubs is a significant feature and objective.

However, I fail to see a rational basis to denigrate the accomplishments of Boston this season. (On an irrational level, I've a well-honed dislike of the Yankees and the Red Sox just like any other red-blooded Jays fan) Every team tries to buy their way to a championship. Boston just happened to execute their plan in building a team and playing the games on the field better than every other rival team. For that, they deserve some respect.

That should read "well above and beyond the bulk of their ertswhile rivals--who now find themselves in a separate division."

Being a Jays fan living in Boston and suffering through the constant complaints and negativity of Red Sox Nation - i think it will be fascinating to see the reaction of the fans...the day after, a week after, a month after...What will they complain about???

I will always be a Jays fan but I cannot help but cheer for this team and city to finally win one...

C.

If they win with 40 million less than what they're spending now, then they'll earn my respect, not by buying their way in.

I heard Wilner say "don't get me started on Derek Jeter." Well, Wiener Milk, consider yourself provoked.

It's the Opening Day 2003 thing, isn't it? I heard Mr. Clutch was an ass during/after that "anti-Yankee terrorist hustle" Ken Huckaby showed.

I know a lot fans of teams that don't have a top 10 payroll complain about the big spenders especially if they win. They like to point out how it's not fair and it's not healthy for the sport.

Whenever I read this I always like to pose the questions let's say your favorite team is now all of a sudden a big spender and wins the World Series:

A. Would you feel like the victory was tainted because of a high payroll?

B. Would you be turned off from you favorite team because they joined the other big spenders?

Let's say by some fluke chance Ted Rogers decides to set the payroll at 85 mil next season for the Jays and they win the world series, would you complain about it?

I would answer yes to both A and B if the payroll crossed the 100 million range.

I don't mind spending more if you got more, but tripling another teams budget wouldn't make me cheer the team. I'd feel like I was playing dodgeball vs grade 5s.

Amusing figure of the night:

The yankees have more commited payroll for 2008 than the Jays spent this year.

This has been a message from the government of Ontario.

Let's say by some fluke chance Ted Rogers decides to set the payroll at 85 mil next season for the Jays and they win the world series, would you complain about it?

I believe the Jays' payroll was near the top of the league in their World Series days. I don't recall anyone bemoaning how they bought a WS.

Have we already forgotten about last year, where a team with a payroll at the same level of the Jays won the World Series?

RE: Payroll. If the Red Sox win the World Series, teams with 100 million + payrolls will be 1 for 15 in winning the World Series.

The difference of course is that even though the Jays had the largest payroll they only outspent their competitors by a few million. To the best of my knowledge the Jays payroll in 92/93 was in the $48M range, and a couple other teams (LA, NYY, NYM, Oak) were at least within shouting distance (over $40M). The Yankees outspent their nearest competition (RedSox) this year by roughly $60M who in turn outspent the third highest team (Angels) by about $25M.

Dammit, I was hoping to take a raod trip to Boston if it got to game six to watch it burn to the ground.

I believe every team *tries* to buy the WS... I have yet to see a team with payroll of $0.

No one begrudged Jays for being top tier spender during their WS run in 92 and 93 (and if I remember correctly, Jays had highest paid player in AL on 93, Joe Carter), so I don't begrudge Sox for trying to win with what they are able to pay.

As for $100M+ payroll, Jays 92/93 payroll of $40M+ could very well be comparable to $100M+ payroll in today's baseball market, where players average salary jumped almost 5 folds (can't find the data but close) and hightest paid players salary quadripled:

2004 Manny Ramirez $22,500,000
1993 Bobby Bonilla $ 6,200,000
1992 Bobby Bonilla $ 6,100,000

I guess, your typical US$ now isn't what it was then. I could almost bet that when Jays had top tier payroll of $40M+, there were teams with payrolls in the range of $10M or less.

http://www.baseball1.com/bb-data/bbd-sal.html
The internet is a wonderful thing. COMN for team payrolls 1992-1995. The Jay average payroll of $50 million in 92-93 is essentially comparable to a $100 million payroll now. The problem is that the Yankees' payroll now is almost double that.

FWIW, many people were uncomfortable with the rent-a-player strategy of 92-93. The strategy did lead to success, but for many, the naked commercialism of the thing was not what they enjoyed about the game.

In 2003 the Jays spent 1.6 times the average team's payroll. If they did that today, their payroll would be $110 million, higher than every team other than the Red Sox and the Yankees.

The 1993 Jays weren't any different than the 2004 Red Sox, except in the fact th '93 squad didn't have to deal with a Yankees team spending about 3 times average payroll.

And by $110 million I mean $110,467,517. I just wanted to imply I actually calculated that figure, not just pulled it out of thin air. :)

An economist would never pull a number out of thin air. I mean, not without charging a huge consulting fee.

I mean, not without charging a huge consulting fee.

No foolin'. You can make out the $250,000 cheque to Neoclassical Economics Inc. Thanks! :)

The argument kinda went off on a tangent there. My original point was that I don't think a team like the Red Sox deserve my respect due to their budget. I don't think anything is wrong with the system, or that small budget teams dont have a chance. It's just that I have alot of respect for those smaller teams as opposed to the over 100mill club whom I have no respect for. It's like they won a race because they bought a better car than everyone, I dont think that deserves my respect at all.

The Jay average payroll of $50 million in 92-93 is essentially comparable to a $100 million payroll now. The problem is that the Yankees' payroll now is almost double that.

"Yankees" yes.. but "league average" No
at $100Mil the roster would be about top 3 though

Daryn, when I said "the Jay average payroll of $50 million in 92-93", I did not mean that it was league average. I meant that the Jay payroll averaged $50 million in the years 1992 and 1993.

Not to nitpick but the average payroll for 92 and 93 is 45 million. The Jays didn't actually cross the 50 mil mark till 2001.

http://www.baseball1.com/bb-data/bbd-sal.html
NEW YORK (AP) - Comparisons of 1995, 1994, 1993 and 1992 baseball payrolls, as determined by management's Player Relations Committee. Totals include termination pay, prorated shares of signing bonuses and earned incentive bonuses (1995 bonuses through Nov. 10). Income deferred without interest is discounted. Award bonuses for Silver Slugger and Gold Glove are not included in 1994 totals.

Baseball-Cube has the payrolls lower, with all "add-ons" considered.

Sorry, Jobu, I am not following you. Unless I'm missing something, the Player Relations Committee's stats show that the Jays average payroll in 1992 and 1993 was $50 million. Do you mean that you have stats from some other source, or that my averaging of $49 and $51 million is somehow wrong, or that somehow the PRC's stats are misleading?

Baseball-Cube has the payrolls lower, with all "add-ons" considered.

Baseball Cube doesn't include all the "add-ons". Pick any team and you'll find the payroll on BC for that period around $3-5 million less than what the Player Relations Committee calculated it as. The '93 Yankees are listed by BC as having a $41.3 million payroll whereas the PRC calculates it as $46.6.

Either way you calculate it, the Jays payroll in 1993 is equivalent to around a $110 million payroll today.

http://www.sports-wired.com/teams/team.asp?ID=30
Sorry, I guess I should have posted the link. I just thought that most people on this site breathed "Baseball Cube" and knew what I was talking about. It's a pretty hardcore site with reliable numbers. COMN.

I guess that's what happens when different people frequent different sites. Damn internet.

Not that I care what the equivalent payroll was. I'm just saying I don't think Boston "deserves" my respect for how much they spend, and if I liked baseball in the early 90s (I just picked up 2 years ago) I probably would have been very cynical of the Jays too. That's one of the reasons I demoted the Leafs from 1st to about 3rd or 4th on my prefered hockey teams list.

Fair enough. I can relate to that point. As an Expos fan, I recall thinking in the early 90's that the Blue Jays represented everything that was wrong with baseball: the DH rule, a bunch of mercenary players, a domed stadium and astroturf (which of course the Expos had as well).

Yeah but the Expos had smoked meat while the Jays had McD's. Clearly the Expos win...

Has it sunk in for anyone else that the Red Sox are going to win the World Series? How weird is that? It's like a city that was built around not having one, now what are they gonna do?

My grandmother always warned me about counting your chickens before they're hatched.

As Crash Davis said, you gotta take it one game at a time. Tonight, it's Lowe vs. Marquis. You'd think that it would be a 6-4 or 7-5 game. We'll see.

Has it sunk in for anyone else that the Red Sox are going to win the World Series? How weird is that? It's like a city that was built around not having one, now what are they gonna do?

Forgive Bill Buckner?

Yeah, but then AFTER that....

Once you go beyond 2.2 times the median payroll, you are flat out trying to buy a World Series. Teams between 1.8 and 2.2 are spending heavily, but they are in line with the high payrolls of the past.

Why do I use that figure? Because there is only one team that's ever exceeded that figure in the free agent era. I'll let everyone guess who that might be.

As far as I can tell, there were 5 players that were either highly paid when the Red Sox got them, or were signed to lucrative contracts as free agents:

Manny Ramirez
Pedro Martinez
Johnny Damon
Keith Foulke
Curt Schilling

That's probably more than the '92 or '93 Jays had (Cone, Winfield, Molitor, Morris, perhaps Carter are the obvious ones, there may be a couple more).

But the Yankees have:

Jason Giambi
Alex Rodriguez
Gary Sheffield
Hideki Matsui (if you account for the negotiating fee they had to pay)
Mike Mussina
Javier Vazquez
Kevin Brown

I forgot Rickey Henderson - he was a half-year rental so I'll count him as 0.5. All the Red Sox and Yankees listed were acquired for multiple seasons.