Tremendous work by Baker. One of the finest stories in any sports section all year -- it should be nominated for the "Best of 2004" anthology.

It probably wouldn't be a bad idea for Zaun to talk with Curtis Thigpen in spring training.

On so many levels, I hope they make a strong connection. Not only has Gregg already sent an important message to every young athlete who reads this piece, he demonstrates as much courage disclosing this as he has blocking the plate. Maybe more.

Unless you have battled the demon of addiction, it's very hard to understand how insidious it can be. It is not a "character flaw" and may indeed have genetic roots, like depression and other misunderstood illnesses. Willpower alone is rarely enough to conquer it.

Despite the positive changes he has implemented and the help he's received from his family and new partner, Zaun would be considered "in denial" by most Alcoholics Anonymous members and many therapists. I'm not going to judge him from afar, or give him any advice -- here's hoping that he continues his healthier, saner lifestyle. He has a few more productive years as a player and will make a terrific coach, if that's what he wants to do when he isn't steelhead fishing.

This should also serve as a reminder to anyone who relies exclusively on a player's stats to assess his talent. Carlos Delgado didn't become a poor hitter earlier this year, he was hurt. Most of us can get that, but it's not just injuries that can affect performance. I'm not "excusing" Zaun's 1998, just wondering if the world championship party may have gone on too long. His 2002 and 2003 campaigns are also partially explained by this article -- an emotionally draining divorce and too many late nights might take a greater toll than any physical ache.

Kudos to Gregg for allowing this to be written and to Geoff for doing such a wonderful job.

Dave Bush takes the hill against Dewon Brazelton.

I hope the hill isn't too high -- I hear he suffers from Vertigo.

Kudos to Rob for identifying 'Vertigo' by U2.

The Jays aren't all that excited about the Sportsnet broadcasts - neither the technology nor the broadcasters nor the content.

This surprises me, I've found Sportsnet, who have only been in the baseball game for a few years now, to have risen towards the upper echelons with their broadcasts.

Faulds and Cerutti have come a long way, and I'm proud to say I'm actually a fan of their work; they've far outpaced the majority of TV commentators whose annoying, droning and meticulously detailed calls have crossed over from their days of radio. What I also enjoy is that they're not complete homers about everything, and that they also do an excellent job of keeping the audience informed about players' progress in the minor leagues, as well as the other teams' accomplishments. Finally, it sounds like these guys are actually out there having fun; I find it a lot more enjoyable what the commentators aren't approaching the game like it's the end of the world; leave that intense crap for violent hockey dads and the players on the field.

Sportsnet also provides some interesting angles and though their feeds can cut out and they miss plays from time to time, it still gets the job done, and I think as Rogers invests more money in the team, the technology will improve. Overall it's certainly better than the bastardization seen on Fox, and you don't have to go very far on the dial to find Rod Black and Pat Tabler desecrate the Jays 20 times a year on TSN.

Now if there were talking baseballs during the all-star game and shameless promotions of a movie (Matsui's face superimposed on an 'I Robot' character still gives me nightmares), I would be afraid... oh wait, that already happened; thanks Fox!

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/2004/09/24/642404-cp.html

Thanks for this tidbit Paul Godfrey... you are truely an ass, the jays above any team are in the worst Division in professional sports, getting spanked by money teams like the Yankees and Sox and you come out and say this crap?

I read the Globe articles this morning. There are apparently followup articles planned for Monday and Tuesday.

The interesting parts of the article were:

- The Jays aren't losing much money any more. They estimate that they will lose $5 million this year, and break even in 2005.

- They will be receiving the third-highest (if I remember correctly) revenue-sharing payout this offseason. Presumably, if the Jays continue to keep their payroll down, the other owners might not be too happy about subsidizing the Jays' operation.

Maybe the other owners will force the Jays to re-sign Delgado. :-)

Or maybe it was $7 million, not $5 million.

http://me.woot.net
I just want to follow up a little bit on Coach's mention of misunderstood diseases, specifically depression. It's frighteningly common, but so few people understand it that I've seen sufferers railing against taking their required drugs because they don't want to have to take 'happy pills.'

While I'm not a sufferer myself, I've seen people very close to me diagnosed with depression. The worst thing about it is that it takes a lot of persuasion to convince these people that what they're suffering from is a disease, not a failing on their part. I use analogies like diabetes or high cholesterol; if a person doesn't feel like a failure when he or she takes insulin or any of the myriad of cholesterol drugs, why should taking medication to better regulate his or her brain's functioning be any different? Depression, after all, is a chemical imbalance in your brain, not an inability for you to look on the bright side of life.

The battle for friends and family to understand the same fact is, sadly, on-going. It's been helpful to emphasise the physical side of things—the chemical imbalance—but people so often have preconceived notions of what depression is, and who gets it, that, while they may pay lip service to the explanation, in their heart of hearts they don't truly believe.

It's strange that depression is so widely misunderstood, because it's such a common disease. To the best of my knowledge there's no 'Depression Foundation' along the lines of the Heart & Stroke foundation and the Cancer Society; if there was, I'd hope that it would start a media campaign to increase awareness. When it's a problem to reveal a disease to your own family, you know the knowledge just hasn't permeated society.

Thanks for this tidbit Paul Godfrey... you are truely an ass

Cameron, I agree with everything Godrey says in that article. What are you so upset about?

Anybody find it funny that we would have been better off with Tony Batista at 3B this year?

Interesting points JKCL. I don't agree with everything though.

I listen to games on the Peterborough station all the time and I've never heard the silence, and I frequently hear local adds. Could that have something to do with listening to the webcast instead?

The offence will be better next year. They have to replace what Delgado did this year, not what he can do. And while he's been very good, a healthy Cat, improved Gross and Rios, full year of Adams and hopefully a better performance from Hinkse will all help. Presumably they're going to sign someone with some power as well.

I don't agree that Batista and Lightenberg are bad signings. Particularly Batista. In him we've got a solid number 3 starter, or a potential closer (I prefer his as a starter). I can understand being upset with Lightenberg, but I'm confidant that he'll rebound next year.
Part of the problem is that some players don't want to play in TO, so JP may have to overpay them. I mean, he offered Worrell more money to come hear, but he turned it down.

I agree on the turf and uniforms. Not convinced about Godfrey's son though.

http://me.woot.net
JKCL, give me a break.

• The SkyDome is a real ballpark. There are just about no bad seats in the house. They've all got good sightlines. There aren't any poles in the way. The problems with the SkyDome are few, and mostly revolve around the advertising and giveaways, including noise level.
• It's so convenient to say "J.P. shouldn't have signed Lightenberg" after the fact. He's been hurt, end of story.
• I don't know if you've actually looked around at the people in Toronto, but they've adopted the new hat/logo in droves. Just becasue you don't like it doesn't mean everyone doesn't like it.

Sometimes I don't get all of this hand wringing (i.e. Brunt: Jays going the way of the Expos). If you look at the attendance figues, TO is ahead of Florida (WS champs) and Cleveland (in contention most of the year) and just behind Minnesota (going to the playoffs). And, all of this during the season from hell.

Sometimes I don't get all of this hand wringing

BINGO! It's a Toronto attitude. It's an attitude I appreciate by the way, Torontonians are perfectionists. Things that are commonplace in every other city seem like crisis here. If you believe the press homelessness and transit problems are "a crisis" - but go to any other city and you'll see Toronto's in fine shape. Same goes with baseball: "Oh my God! SkyDome isn't filled every night anymore, we'll lose our team for sure!" The Blue Jays attendance is probably 1/3 lower than the Atlanta Braves, who have won 13 straight division titles, the Braves can't even sell out a post season game. There's nothing wrong with the Toronto market. This is a normal reaction to ten years of bad baseball.

Funny that we're talking about the new logo. I was in Roots yesterday, and one of the employees was raving about the new logo. Turns out he hasn't been to a game this year, but he loves the new logo. I'm of the opinion that it appeals to young people, but at the expense of the older/traditional baseball crew. I don't personally know any people that I would consider baseball fans who actually like it. I say ditch it. But that ain't happening.

Don't know if anyone caught this little blurb in the RockyMountain News yesterday:

"Talk among scouts is Toronto general manager J.P. Ricciardi, who has been known to throw batting practice for the Blue Jays, has considered moving into the dugout as Bobby Cox did with Atlanta in 1990."

No more detail than that, and it could be just scouts grousing. Thoughts?

J.P. Ricciardi, who has been known to throw batting practice for the Blue Jays, has considered moving into the dugout

Sounds like career suicide.

I don't personally know any people that I would consider baseball fans who actually like it.

I like it.

It's not great, but Toronto had the worst logo in MLB before this season. Now they're in the bottom 7 or 8. So I guess that's improvement.

The Expos probably have the best unis in baseball, and look where it got them. :)

Wasn't Buck Martinez quoted last month saying of JP: "He's always right and everyone else is wrong."? Installing himself as manager would give him a chance to prove it.

But yes, it would also prove he was insane.

This surprises me, I've found Sportsnet, who have only been in the baseball game for a few years now, to have risen towards the upper echelons with their broadcasts.

I agree. I think sportsnet's broadcasts are as good as anyone in the league. Sure Faulds and Cerutti aren't the greatest but they have come a long way. I used to 'hate' Faulds but I think he has improved tremendously, and now I actually like him, something I didn't think was possible.

Talk among scouts is Toronto general manager J.P. Ricciardi, who has been known to throw batting practice for the Blue Jays, has considered moving into the dugout as Bobby Cox did with Atlanta in 1990.

This isn't 1990; baseball is a very different place. Ricciardi can't do both jobs if he's going to do them properly.

Period.

And I imagine he knows this, which is why I would surmise that this is pure rumour with a touch of character assassination thrown in.

KL was a bad signing.

We need to separate the signing itself from the terms. KL is a useful player and bringing him in was, I think, definitely the right idea. I think very few people would disagree.

But I think the circumstances under which he was brought in (very early in the free agent signing period, for two years, at what most of us thought was a pretty high salary) were bad ones, and lots of us thought so at the times (to a greater or lesser degree), and they've been shown right - so far.

The good/bad part is, that Ligtenberg has another year now to show those doubters that it was a good signing. At this point, in light of his age, I'm not holding my breath.

Gord Ash was at least good at dealing some of his clunkers (Randy Myers comes to mind)

Yeah, that was sheer genius. For a 34-year-old with over 250 saves in the last seven years and 28 in the current season, Ash got the legendary Brian Lloyd. Helluva deal, right up there with how he flipped Tony Batista (who had hit 41 HR the previous season) for, uh, nothing.

pure rumour with a touch of character assassination thrown in

Consider the source. Tracy Ringolsby's a colossal jerk. I refuse to even visit that paper's Web site to confirm this nonsense, but it has his slimy fingerprints all over it.

if at least one GM in baseball agreed with you and would take Lighterfluid off our hands. For free.

JKCL. Where did you get that information from? If you are saying that he was put on waivers and nobody claimed him, then all that means is that nobody was willing to be on the hook for his 2005 contract. That ain't free.

If he really was free to a good home, some team of course would take a flyer on him. He's been good in the past. (I'm not disputing that it was a bad signing, btw, at least not for the price paid. )

J.P. Ricciardi's ability to build a bullpen on the cheap has been, so far, a failure. But predictably good relievers are basically out of the Jays price range. It's a bit of a crap-shoot. Would we have thought Aquilino Lopez would be so good last year, and so bad this year? Would you really have predicted Kerry Ligtenberg to be as bad this year? Tam had been good in the past, and was not expensive. To me the only indefensibly bad move in the bullpen has been Creek, who had a long history of mediocrity. While I think the jays could have done better with their bullpen acquisitions, there is an awful lot of luck involved.

It's kind of odd to hear how we need $10 million more in payroll, when $10 million in payroll will be going next year to pay Batista/Hinske/Lighterfluid. That's about as close to wasting $10 million as you can get.

Ok, so how would you have predicted the performance of these players beforehand and realised they were bad moves? Ligtenberg is the only one here who you might have had misgivings beforehand given his record. It is so easy to make judgements with hindsight, no? It's also unfair to judge this "waste" of $10 million without context. Do you think that Vernon Wells is worth his money? At the moment he is a bargain. How about Ted Lilly? All of these deals, I think are defensible, but contain risk. Some you win some you lose. It's easy to "predict" this after the event.

The Jays did not know exactly how Wells or Hinske were going to turn out at the time. So they diversified their investments and signed both. That is wise risk management. Money that was wasted on one, was saved on the other.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=fanball-sundaysdevilraysblue&prov=fanball&type=lgns
Sunday's Jays-Rays game has been cancelled and won't be rescheduled. In tonight's game, no inning can start after 9:15. COMN for story.

If I was stuck with him, I would have dealt Myers before the deadline, for something. But then again, I never would have given him that insane contract, another of Gordo's specialties.

Right now, JP would do Batista/Hinske/Lighterfluid for nothing (or Scott Wiggins) in an instant

I disagree. You might be right about Lightenberg, but I seriously doubt that he'd trade Batista or Hinske for nothing.
He seems to be relatively happy with both of them, in particular with Hinske's improved defence.

He might consider trading either Hinske or Batista, but I don't think he'd give them away?

I don't understand why it's so bad to judge a GM with hindsight. Sorry, but in this business, results are all that matter. Whether or not the fans agreed with the signing at the time is absolutely irrelevant. GM's are supposed to be smarter than us fans, that's why they make the big bucks.

I'm not saying that JP should be blamed for Ligtenberg, but I think it's wrong to say "It was not a bad move because I liked the move at the time." No, it was a bad move. Whether JP should have seen the horrible year coming or not is a different story, but the Ligtenberg signing (so far) has turned out to be a bad move.

Yeah, that was sheer genius. For a 34-year-old with over 250 saves in the last seven years and 28 in the current season, Ash got the legendary Brian Lloyd. Helluva deal, right up there with how he flipped Tony Batista (who had hit 41 HR the previous season) for, uh, nothing.

Coach, you could put a fork in Myer's at the time. Players were said he was throwing nothing but changeups, and his numbers weren't good. He wasn't getting anyone out, and he was getting paid a *huge* salary. Notice that Myers disappeared with barely a ripple afterwards.

Batista is more arguable, however. Viewed as a salary dump it was a very good move. Batista has been mediocre, mostly, since his time in TO, and he was paid an awful lot at the time.

I don't understand why it's so bad to judge a GM with hindsight.


Yes, as long as one keeps it in perspective. One should judge people on the things they can control. Suppose I flip a coin and I predict it comes up heads. Suppose that it comes up tails. Does that mean I made an error of judgement? In hindsight I would have predicted tails....

That's a facile example where one cannot confuse luck with judgement, but we do this all the time with GMs. Sure, GMs heavily influence their luck by using wise risk management techniques (or not!), but a lot of people will simply look back and said "He should have called tails" when there is no reason beforehand to do so. That's unfair. You can judge a GM with hindsight, but it is unfair to say, for example, that Hinske was an error of judgment because you couldn't have predicted it. (It is fair to say he's been a bust so far). If you take Hinske and Wells as a package then the deal is quite good. JP flipped the coin twice and it has so come up heads once. That's wise risk management.

So, yes, you can judge people in hindsight, but one should do so fairly.

KL is a waste of money that no one is going to take away. There was an article by gammons a while ago that mentioned KL passed through waivers but spier did not.

This was a very very bad signing. Two years, for more than what his refused option was going to pay him, is a very very bad deal. And by the way, the option was going to pay him 1 Million not 2. I realized some people regard him as god around here, but coach, getting rid of this guy for a bag of dorritos would be great for the jays. They could then take this money, add some to it, and make a run at some decent bat.

Another bad signing is the cat. What an awfull idea, bringing back a guy who was injured most of his career, for two year 2.9 mil/year and not to mention at a position that we are stacked.

Put the money given to the cat with KL and you have 5.5 Million dollars, which could get us a guy like clement, valentin (3b,ss,2b), and could have gotten us escobar.

Let's say Kerry's hip never gets any better and he doesn't help in 2005. Maybe he'll be released, and history will record it as a $5 million mistake, but given the number of personnel moves they must make, no GM has a perfect record, or anything close to it. Making moves that have a good chance of improving his team while avoiding catastrophic blunders is what Ricciardi does infinitely better than his predecessor.

It's interesting that someone who rags on Ligtenberg (or J.P.'s signing of him) would cite Randy Myers at all. That was a $16 million mistake -- in 1998 dollars -- compounded by hanging on to him too long. He's a perfect example of the expensive mess J.P. had to clean up before moving forward. It's not as if Myers was an isolated gaffe -- the ridiculous deals Ash threw at Hamilton, Loaiza, Bush, Gonzalez, Mondesi and others were unforgivable.

Tonight's game is cancelled thanks to Hurricane Jeanne

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/news_story.asp?id=99876

This isn't a situation I'm familiar with (not been following baseball long enough). What happens if the game has only completed, say, 8 innings at 9:15. Does the score stand as the final score? Or is the whole shebang abandoned (you could imagine the coach making very many long pitching changes just to avoid a result).

Urooj, as Lucas reported earlier in this thread, it's tomorrow's game that has been cancelled. Tonight's will be played, but there's a curfew -- no new inning after 9:15.

Urooj, that story refers to tomorrow's game.

Coach, the point that he's making re Ligtenberg and Myers is that in this particular case, Gordo was able to cut his losses, something that JP has so far been unwilling or unable to do with Ligtenberg. Was the Myers signing a bigger mistake than Ligtenberg? The Myers deal to San Diego was basically the Mondesi deal to the Yanks. Me Grimlock find criticism of the Myers trade laughable.

Me Grimlock also would like to note that the Jays did indeed play meaningful games in August/September in 1998-2000. Me Grimlock remember being among the 40000 who watched the Jays get smoked by Oakland every time it was a big game.

Andrew, I deal with the "no new inning" rule all the time in high school ball, where our afternoon games must be over in time for the evening permit-holders to use the diamonds. It's rarely been invoked for a major-league game, but presumably the Jays have a flight to catch and the Rays want to give everyone else time to get home before the storm.

Yes, the score at the end of the last full inning will stand. If it's tied at 9:15, my guess is they will call it a suspended game and the Jays will play only 160 for the season.

Thanks, Coach.

I'm surprised they didn't try to reschedule the game to start a little earlier. I guess they have to give ticket holders a certain amount of notice.

Was the Myers signing a bigger mistake than Ligtenberg?

Over five times as big. Bigger by $11 million, not counting for inflation. The kind of mistake Ash made all the time.

They have to have some offense next year.

JKCL, although I hope that Gross proves his doubters wrong as soon as 2005, I agree that Reed/Cat is a "surer bet" in the short term and that Cat at DH and Gross in the LF platoon may not provide enough pop next year.

J.P. has said recently in a couple of media outlets that Cat's in the LF plans, which suggests Gross may be in Triple-A as injury insurance. If he's stuck there most of next year, that would be great news for Syracuse fans. It would also guarantee more runs for the Jays, because it would indicate their key hitters were healthy.

Sure it was a mistake, and Gordo made lots of them. But me Grimlock thinks it's at least debatable over which was the bigger mistake.

Myers gave us a pretty good half-season (28 saves at the ASB), and at the time of his signing in the 1997 offseason, was still regarded as a premier closer and therefore commanded premium closer money. The fact that Gordo was able to dump him when he did is pretty good. Further, didn't he have more money to work with as well? So throwing $3M away, which is something you don't want to do, didn't hurt as much then as it does now? When talking about Gordo's sins, Randy Myers is nowhere near the top.

Excellent point on the Wells/Hinske sigings JKCL. What I'm wondering is what it would cost the Jays to buy Hinske out at this point. I have no idea what the number would be, but if it's something like 60%, could the Jays not find a free agent or something to play for what's left, who'd provide the team with better hitting than Hinske? Or open up a spot for Aaron Hill there, and use the money left over to fix mistakes in the bullpen?

I know that there has been discussion here about moving Hinske to first, but at this point, he doesn't hit anywhere near enough to make it worthwhile in my opinion. Dayn Perry wrote an article on BP recently looking at BJ Upton moving to third, and in the course of doing so, looked at average runs created by the average player at each position, from 2000-2004. A first baseman creates an average of 15 more runs per 650 plate appearances. Hinske is already a sub-par offensive third baseman; why make him a really sub-par offensive first baseman? It's not like his defence will make up for it. By contrast, if he was released, you can throw what's left of his money on the pile for a 1B to replace Carlos.

I love reading these types of threads, and think you could come up with an interesting magazine feature showing how the fans of the Jays, D-backs and every other team in MLB who fell short of expectations, demonstrate perfect 20/20 hindsight using exactly the same arguments, down to exactly the same phrases only with different player names in them. The language might be harsher on a D-Backs blog addressing young mesers Fossum and Hillebrand.

Anyway, I put forth this challenge ... ANYONE here who believe the Ligtenberg signing is, in retropsoect, obviously a bad, indefensible signing -- and there appear to be a lot of you -- shut me up just by simply linking in this thread to the thread last offseason where you said the same thing.

As for the players getting trashed in this thread, I don't hve any numbers to run by anyone based on anything other than sheer speculation, but I think it not entirely unreasonavble to think it's possile that 2005 will bring the following results:

- Ligtenberrg: 80 games, 3.20 ERA, 12 saves
- Catalanotto: .315 BA 15 HR, 70 RBIm 20 SB
- Batista: 14-11, 3.55 ERA OR 35 saves
- Hinske: 20 HR, 85 RBI

These are NOT projections or predcitions, just possibilities. If all of them happen, The Blue Jays are potentially Wild Card contenders, as many thought of this season,a nd JP is an executive of te year candidate; if none of them happen, Season From Hell II is not ouf of the question. It'll probably be somewhere between, and if for instance it's Ligtenberg doing the above, I hope those on this board will link back to today's thread and say "Whoops."

Now, think for just a minute about what the reaction on Da Box would have been, and the many ways Law and Ricciardi would hve been excoriated, if Cat and Batista, for instnce, posted the exact numbers above for the Red Sox and Yankees, respectively.

Sorry, this is going to be long.

I find it hard to evaluate general managers, as I don't know what alternatives are available to them. We don't know what players J.P. (or Gordo) could have signed instead of Ligtenberg et al.

I think that anyone who criticizes J.P. (and there's nothing wrong with criticizing a GM - it builds strong bodies twelve ways :-)) should say what he or she would have done better given the information available to the Jays before this season. I can't see myself making better decisions than J.P. did; in fact, mine would have been considerably worse.

Some comments on the Ash era, some pro-Gordo and some definitely anti-Gordo:

- The Jays were on the fringes of contention in both 1999 and 2000, I seem to recall - they actually made moves to shore up their roster on deadline day both years. Of course, these moves involved acquiring Dave Martinez and Brian McRae, but hey... :-)

- If you're going to ding Ash for having signed Myers (and one should - it wasn't a very good idea), you also have to give him credit for signing Roger Clemens. Now, the Rocket signing seems like an obvious thing to do - signing a historically great player is almost always worth it, and signing a historically great player on a mission to prove himself is even more worth it. But many people at the time thought that the Jays paid way too much for Clemens.

- When Ash signed Myers, he also signed Benito Santiago and Otis Nixon. Bluugh.

- It's worth remembering that Interbrew were cheap owners; for much of the Ash era, the Jays' budget was whatever Interbrew had left over in their sock drawer. Not only that, Ash wasn't allowed to rip up the team and start over, as J.P. has - Interbrew wanted to get rid of the team, so they wanted to win games right now to keep the value of the franchise up. As a strategy, it didn't work.

- Mind you, the farm system was barren when Ash took over, as Gillick had (understandably) stripped it bare to build his 1993 champions. So Ash couldn't go with kids even if he wanted to.

- Ash gets poor marks for not being smart enough to realize that the Orioles were likely to snap Batista up if the Jays let him go. (It was extremely bad PR to watch him hit a home run, for the visiting team, at SkyDome.) But Tony Bats' OBP was absolutely horrible; when he wasn't hitting home runs, he was a drag on the offense.

- Ash seemed to be at his best when given no money to work with. His strength was his willingness to work hard: if the club needed an infielder, he'd have six infield non-roster invitees ready to go for next spring's camp. Most of them would be awful, but that's what happens when you rummage through the discard pile for players.

- But, when given money to work with, Ash didn't spend it wisely. Having spent years in a ballplayer-scarce environment, he overvalued the major league players he did have, fearing that he couldn't get others. Hence the large contracts to Gonzalez, Mondesi, etc. I have never set foot in the Jays' clubhouse, so I have no idea what the atmosphere was like in those days, but I can't help but think that the Jays' regulars must have felt a bit complacent. The club had committed to them, and couldn't afford replacements, so there was no real incentive to put in that extra effort.

- Ash's biggest fault was that he wasn't tough-minded enough. He agreed to trade Clemens, Green, and Wells to the teams they wanted to go to. At the time, there were people who suggested that the Rocket should have been forced to stay put. (You signed the contract, Roger, now it's time to live up to it.) I can't imagine any player trying to impose a non-negotiable demand on J.P. He'd have traded Wells to Tampa Bay just to show him who's boss.

- Wells for Sirotka is what did Gordo in (just as Hamilton for Woody is what did Dave Stewart in). Somebody didn't do their due diligence, and the blame for that eventually goes to the top man.

Overall, I think there were worse GM's than Gordo, but the change came at exactly the right time. Ash would not have known what to do with the logjam of talent that came up a couple of years ago; I suspect that he would have kept playing Alex Gonzalez and Raul Mondesi until their contracts expired.

One more thing: when evaluating a Toronto GM, you have to remember that he has a limited set of players to choose from, as some players will refuse to come to Toronto (it's a foreign country, the money is weird, the fans are quiet, the turf is bouncy, etc. etc.).

This may be why J.P. was eager to re-sign Cat - how nice it is to see a player who loves it here and who wants to stay here, as opposed to grudgingly accepting a posting to Toronto as if it were a baseball Siberia. (A certain pitcher with initials E.L. leaps to mind here).

This is the first I've ever heard about the option being 1 million, not 2 million. I seriously doubt that's correct.

- Ligtenberrg: 80 games, 3.20 ERA, 12 saves
- Catalanotto: .315 BA 15 HR, 70 RBIm 20 SB
- Batista: 14-11, 3.55 ERA OR 35 saves
- Hinske: 20 HR, 85 RBI

First of all, how much do you want to gamble on something like this happening? I think expecting better production from the Cat isn't a bad bet, nor is expecting more from Batista, if he was in fact injured as Coach has said on numerous occasions. I'm a little befuddled as to why someone who was injured wouldn't be shut down in a season such as this, especially when there is 10 mil invested in him over the next 2 years, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Ligtenberg seems to be a poor bet to come back strong though, given his declining stats over the past few years, and that I believe I've heard he's got a pre-arthritic condition in his hip-that doesn't seem to be a very solvable injury. Second, the stats that you offered for Hinske are pretty deceptive. He'll likely finish with 16-17 HR this year and 70-75 RBI. You aren't suggesting much improvement. The bigger problem with him is the disappearance of his batting eye, and loss of any doubles power-he had nearly twice as many doubles in fewer at bats last year. As I've acknowledge here before, I'm not a baseball guy by any means, but it just seems to me that Hinske is substandard in so many offensive areas at this point in his career, it's foolish to bank on much from him in the future.

Sorry about that guys, my mistake.

Did you guys hear that the Orioles aren't interested in bringing back Palmeiro for the second year of his contract? Did you guys also hear that the owner of the Orioles is putting $20 Million out of his own pocket? Add that to the fact that Carlos is a free agent and what do you get?

Am I insane or does the crowd in MVP 2004 really chant "overrated" when Jeter is up to bat at an away field once every so often?

Also, I highly recommend all of you go and see Napoleon Dynamite.

The crowd in MVP 2004 does chant "Overrated". I've heard it for Jeter, Matsui, A-Rod, and other Yankees, Nomar, etc. Basically any star player can get chants of "overrated", I've also heard it for the Bambino and Delgado. Hillarious.

I've also heard that the "1918" chants and other team-specific taunts are in the game. I'm not so sure about those ones, but overrated is definately in.

Wells was a guy who'd been a first round draft pick, plays centre, hit well in the minors, played his first game in the majors at 21 and came was a regular by 23.

Hinske had never hit .300 in the minors, was in his third organization and almost 25 by the time he played his first major league game, was a defensive liability, and was drafted in the 17th round.

Though they both had good seasons in 2002, they weren't alike.

JKCL, while your hindsight is most definitely 20-20 in bashing the Wells and Hinske signings, it's utterly horrible in regards to the numbers posted by the two players in question.

Hinske's career batting average at A-ball: .302, in 714 AB.

Besides the fact that batting average is a fairly useless stat to use in assessing a player's overall performance, how on earth did Hinske pull that line off without ever having a single season over .300?

Let's look at a few other numbers. Ones that actually mean something.

Vernon Wells, 2002: .305 OBP, .457 SLG, 608 AB
Eric Hinske, 2002: .365 OBP, .481 SLG, 566 AB

Wells had a good 2002? Not compared to Hinske, and only average as compared to other AL center fielders (.327 OBP, .420 SLG).

Vernon Wells' AAA career: .326 OBP, .446 SLG, 1035 AB
Eric Hinske's AAA career: .373 OBP, .532 SLG, 459 AB

Hardly star-in-waiting numbers for Vernon, and numbers for Hinske that suggest that 2002 was no fluke.

Those numbers are why I felt, at the time of the signings and as I still do now, that signing Wells was a bigger risk than signing Hinske.

Yes, there were reasons to believe that Wells would improve. But reasons to believe that Hinske would regress, especially to the extent that he has? None. None whatsoever. If you can name the next guy who will drop off as Hinske has, there are 30 major league teams who would love to hire you.

http://www.battersbox.ca/archives/00001282.shtml
Mick asked for the Kerry Ligtenberg signing thread. COMN.
I liked the acquisitions of Batista, Hentgen and Terry Adams in the off-season and wasn't crazy about Lilly and Ligtenberg. I guess that doesn't qualify me as a GM candidate in waiting.

Well no, you didn't bash the Wells signing originally. I was implying the two signings have to be considered together. You've pretty much done that in your last post, and implied that Wells was a bad signing because of the length and the lack of pressure to get it done rather than waiting a year.

That's fine and good. Maybe it is a bad idea, in general, to sign players to 5-year contracts after their first season in the majors. I offer no argument one way or the other there.

What I disagree with is the assertion in your earlier posts that Hinske was a bad signing while Wells was a bad one. I see it as Dr. Zarco does: Wells came up heads, Hinske came up tails. To imply JP should have forseen this is, in my opinion, completely ludicrous.

Not many others feel now that there is a bigger risk Wells won't be worth the money than Hinske.

Compltely irrelevant. 100% hindsight.

.450 at Rockford.

In his other two A-ball stops, Hinske hit .297 and .298. No further comment.

The downside of waiting one more year was minor.

I'm not so sure. Wells went from .302 OBP / .455 SLG in 2002 to .359 OBP / .550 SLG in 2003. That's a massive increase in bargaining power for VW.

Hinske was a bad signing while Wells was a bad one.

Oops... while Wells was a GOOD one, is what I meant to say.

This is the first I've ever heard about the option being 1 million, not 2 million. I seriously doubt that's correct.

Well, it was more than $1 million, but it wasn't close to my $2 million. Apparently it was $1.2 million from that old Ligtenberg thread. I stand corrected.