Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
There's too many of you crying
Brother, brother, brother
There's far too many of you dying
You know we've got to find a way
To bring some lovin' here today - Ya

No game yesterday.

  1. Fordin Notes on Brandon League and Alex Rios:

      "He's got close to 400 at-bats. People have made adjustments on him and he's made adjustments back," said J.P. Ricciardi, Toronto's general manager. "He's done better than I've expected, as far as that part. And as far as the grind of playing every day, he's held his own."

      He's done better than just hold his own. Rios has Toronto's second-highest batting average (.288), and he's vaulted to the top of the rookie leaderboard in several statistical categories. He leads all the American League's first-year players in average, multi-hit games (32), triples (six), stolen bases (13) and assists (10). And he's second in a bunch of others.


  2. Mike Rutsey discusses the city of Toronto's indifference towards Carlos Delgado in "Delgado's legacy? A yawn":

      But in a city that worships the Maple Leafs -- a fourth-line centre receives more adulation -- and gets excited over athletes that are heralded in the U.S. -- think Vince Carter before his trade demands -- Delgado doesn't seem to raise much of a pulse. It's not as if the phone lines are jammed at The Fan with callers imploring the Jays to re-sign him.

      The indifference, given his credentials, is stunning.


  3. Continuing on the Delgado theme is Shi Davidi with "Delgado's at-bats dwindling":

      Some baseball people suggest Delgado could fetch a contract similar to the five-year, $70-million US deal Vladimir Guerrero received from the Anaheim Angels last fall. Others peg his price closer to the two-year, $12.75-million extension David Ortiz received from the Boston Red Sox earlier this season.

      Realistically, Delgado's value is probably closer to Guerrero's than Ortiz's, because of his track record and off-field contributions. Few players are as generous with their time or as genuine in their charity as Delgado, an asset to be considered at contract time.

  4. Even ESPN is getting into the Delgado discussion. See Chris Green's "Cheering Delgado's Dissent:

      Baseball has nothing to do with politics, right? In fact, baseball is deemed a solution to our deepest rifts -- political, generational, whatever. Consider the now-official cliché: I-Couldn't-Talk-To-My-Dad-About-Anything-But-We-Could-Still-Watch-The-Ballgame-Together. The guys you vote into the All-Star Game are supposed to transcend the guys you vote into office in November. So in baseball, it doesn't matter if you're liberal or conservative, if you're for the war or against the war.

      Except if you're against the war.


  5. Mike Rutsey discusses what the bullpen might look like next year in "'Pen closes the door: Jays auditioning new relievers":

      The plan has Miguel Batista auditioning in the closer's role and switching Justin Miller into a sixth- and seventh-inning role.

      Along with those moves, the Jays are going to take a hard look at flame-thrower Brandon League, who can whistle it to the plate in the high 90s and has topped the 100 m.p.h. mark on a number of occasions at double-A.

      A rehaul of the 'pen is a top priority for Ricciardi. If he can fill the key spots internally, it will enable him to spend what money he has on the club's offensive needs.


  6. In "One clear reason to hang with Blue Jays" Richard Griffin gives us a reason why we should continue to watch Blue Jays games. Yes, you read that correctly:

      There's good reason for fans to attend the final weekend: Show some appreciation toward Carlos Delgado and prepare to bid him adieu. The classy Puerto Rican first baseman will likely be winding up his Blue Jays career as their career leader in most major offensive categories. He deserves a send-off.


  7. Tonight's 7:05PM EST start in Tampa: RHP Josh Towers (9-6, 4.92 ERA) vs. RHP Scott Kazmir (2-2, 6.38 ERA). Spencer "Stay Away From My Mom" Fordin has a game preview.
Jays Roundup - Mother, Mother | 84 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Four Seamer - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 09:10 AM EDT (#31318) #
What's Going On, Bauxites? I'm feeling bright and Gaye about the Jays next year, although perhaps a little less so should they sign Marvin Benard in the off-season.
_Moffatt - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 09:14 AM EDT (#31319) #
Awesome. Absolutely awesome.

I think everyone can figure out from that what the song and artist was. Four Seamer wins 250 million points (most ever), a picture of Marvin Gaye:



and of course, a cuttlefish:



I don't know why I haven't done any Marvin Gaye songs before today. The man was a god.
_Four Seamer - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 09:22 AM EDT (#31320) #
What an honour!
_G.T. - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 09:35 AM EDT (#31321) #
FWIW, according to rototimes.com, Kazmir's start is to be bumped back to Monday, because of a sore middle finger.

ESPN, USA Today et. al. still have him scheduled for tonight, though.
Mike Green - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 09:37 AM EDT (#31322) #
Moffatt, you can get that song playing in my head anytime. Coach, this redeems Johnny Horton...give him another shot, please.

If Delgado does indeed leave Toronto after this season, it will be a sad ending. He's had the greatest career in a Toronto uniform of any player, and he's a fine, fine human being. And yet, he came up just after the last Jays' winning run was over, and prior to the next one arriving. I am quite sure that it will arrive before his playing days are done, and I would be much happier if he were here when it does.
_Jimbob from Lon - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 10:25 AM EDT (#31323) #
Nice article from ESPN on Delgado's stance... its almost sympathetic, which also comes as a surprise from a major US web site.

Personally as a Brit, I was and still am totally against what is going on in Iraq in the name of oil, sorry I mean freedom. For a player of Delgado's status to make a public stand is to be welcomed and shows the class of the man.

Think back to the time of the negro leagues, its not quite the same but Im sure a similar stance from a white player for integration might've met the same response from crowds... its takes guts to stand out and make a point.

And anyone who mentions that politics and baseball shouldn't mix should also be the first in line to tell MLB to stop playing 'God Save American' in ballparks...

When we lose Delgado, we're going to lose more than a big slugger. I suspect the lucky club that sign him (and we can be happy it'll not be the skankees) will discover they've bagged themselves one of the best players in the game, both on and off the field. If he plays in a big market then we should be prepared for his star to shine ever brighter.
Named For Hank - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 10:27 AM EDT (#31324) #
A preview of the modified Punchy for my HAWAIIAN PUNCH-OUT banner:



Next I'm adding goggles. The banner should be ready to preview in a few hours.
_Wayne H. - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 10:35 AM EDT (#31325) #
The Hawaiian Punch-Out dude will be a great banner. I can't wait to see him with the goggles.

I really like the punching fist.

Hang the banner high!
_Mick - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 10:47 AM EDT (#31326) #
because of a sore middle finger.

You spend your season with the Mets and then the Devil Rays, you'd have a sore bird, too.
Mike Green - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 11:30 AM EDT (#31327) #
NFH, one word. Yes!
Pistol - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 11:34 AM EDT (#31328) #
Personally as a Brit, I was and still am totally against what is going on in Iraq in the name of oil, sorry I mean freedom.

Let me know when this 'oil war' lowers my gas price.
Joe - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 11:35 AM EDT (#31329) #
http://me.woot.net
I've been either on the train or at my girlfriend's house (and she doesn't have TSN or Sportsnet) when League has pitched recently, so I've been unable to see him. Does anybody have pictures of his begoggled face? Or is that just a joke, and there are no goggles?
_The Original Ry - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 11:49 AM EDT (#31330) #
You can just barely see the goggles:

Mike Green - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 12:10 PM EDT (#31331) #
Let me know when this 'oil war' lowers my gas price.

I wouldn't hold my breath.

We haven't had a foray into politics in a long time, and once in awhile, it's OK. So, what is the war about anyway?
-Responding to an imminent threat, laughable.
-Helping another nation achieve freedom? Why Iraq then? There are any number of worse places in the world in this regard, and it's pretty damn unlikely that the place will be better afterwards.
-Oil, there doesn't seem to be enough of it, now and in the future, to justify the military expense
-Oedipus complex, Daddy didn't have the guts to go to Baghdad and I can go further, possible but yikes.
-Water, diversion of water is a possible issue, but again the cost/benefit equation doesn't seem to work
-Going to the electorate as a war president? Historically, this hasn't worked, but maybe 9/11 changes this dynamic.

You'd really have to struggle to find that ethics (other than Macchiavellian) played a role in the war decision. But what's behind all of it could be (short-term Machiavellian) brilliance, stupidity or insanity, and I'm still not sure which.

Mike Green - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 12:17 PM EDT (#31332) #
1) Dodgers 1B Shawn Green will miss Saturday's afternoon's due, due to Yom Kippur, but will play today's night game that is also during Yom Kippur. It's the equivalent of deciding that a religious holiday only applies to one game of a doubleheader.

Courtesy of Lee Sinins at the Hardball Times.

Lee, meet Reform Judaism. Reform Judaism, Lee ;-)
_Jonathan - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 12:26 PM EDT (#31333) #
Back to baseball. Had an interesting idea for the Jays this offseason. Whatever happens to Miguel Batista, the Jays are going to be short one decent #3/4 starter. Probably someone in Miguel's salary range. Someone that will come to Toronto.
Well, there's a good pitcher toiling in the AL East that has gone missing completely this year. A guy, just over a year ago, everyone had thought was a star in waiting. Now, gone! Can be had for a song.

What about Byung Yung Kim of the BoSox? There's no way he will ever thrive in Boston again, after his finger incident. Doesn't seem the guy to perform in the cookers of NY and Boston. He makes 3.5 million and has proved himself to be extremly effective in the past. A new environment could be a boost of confidence, with less media attention. He's a rubber man who could fill the rotation out, but could also be a real steal if placed in the bullpen.

Boston was reportedly trying to get rid of him for a song. Why doesn't JP make an attempt? Maybe dump a different contract oon Boston, or get the Sox to take on some of his salary?

An idea. A revitalized Kim would look real good in Jays uniform, in a rotation along with Halladay, Bush, Lilly and Towers.
_Braby - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 12:41 PM EDT (#31334) #
I was wondering if the relocation of the Expos would have any effects on the divisions. Obvoiusly if they to the west something will have to give. Is there anyway the Jays could get out of the East, or either the Yanks, or the Bosox could be removed from the East?

Also with some young lively arms in the pen, and Russ Adams playing well at short, doesn't this free up a lot of money and give JP more flexibility when it comes to signing Carlos? If they sign Carlos they may only have to add 1 starter to replace Miggy, and maybe 2 short relivers.
_Marc - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 12:42 PM EDT (#31335) #
The only way I'd like to see Kim in a Jays uniform next season is if the Sox take Hinske and add Youkilis to the deal if the Jays include a minor leaguer but I highly doubt that would happen.
_6-4-3 - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 12:50 PM EDT (#31336) #
http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/projo_20040809_9kim.134527.html
I'd like to see Kim succeed somewhere. If the Expos were in Montreal next year, that'd probably be a good location.

But one of the weirdest baseball stories of the year involves Kim.

While he was in Pawtucket, there was a pre-game autograph day, with around a thousand fans on the field. Kim (apparently) didn't know it was going on, and so when he left the clubhouse, he was shocked at what was going on and "his jaw literally dropped and he turned as white as the chalk in the batter's box" . . . he went to the trainer's room and didn't come out for 35 minutes

He quickly took refuge in the trainer's room and it took him 35 minutes to calm down before a team official escorted him out to his designated spot to sign autographs. (COMN for the story)

Again, I'd like to see him rebound, and that article mentions how hard he's been working to overcome his injuries, get his velocity back, and make it to the majors again. If the Sox were willing to give him away for nothing, then picking him up wouldn't be bad, but the Jays pitching situation is somewhat crowded to begin with.
robertdudek - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 12:53 PM EDT (#31337) #
I don't think Kim can be an effective starting pitcher. His velocity drops significantly every time he goes into the rotation. Even in relief his fastball isn't what it once was, thus I consider him a poor gamble at the salary he's making.
_Jonathan - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 12:55 PM EDT (#31338) #
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6237
The pitching situation in Toronto is crowded, but I would call that a matter of quantity and not qualitity. Many of their arms are serviceable, and not much more (Miller). What once was a year where we could at least be happy with the progress of the pitchers, is no more - look at the team ERA - it's almost last in the AL now!

Everyone forgets that Kim, in all his struggles is not from North America and does not speak english. Situations like the story in Pawtucket would surely be less common if he was more comfertable and knew more english. He's been a great pitcher in the past when he's been in the right place - I could really see Toronto offering him the same. Remember when the guy would mow down hitters (COMN for his career stats)?!
_earlweaverfan - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 12:56 PM EDT (#31339) #
It would not surprise me that the actual rotation turns out to be something like Halladay, Bush, Chacin, Lilly, and League. If League is most required in the bullpen, then it will likely be because Miguel is not the answer there. If Miguel is not the answer there, he will go back to being the overpaid, underdelivering starter this year has finally proven him to be. JP will take at least another year before he decides to give up on this neat signing he treated us to.

JP has been (commendably) against rushing the up and comers to reach the majors too fast. But by bringing both Chacin and League up in mid-September, he has shown his hand for next year, I think.

Towers has faded away like all the naysayers said he would and Miller has disappointed, likewise. It will not surprise me when either of them goes.

Meanwhile, Carlos. He is a huge linchpin in run production, a legacy, and a class act out in the community.

What does not penetrate his thinking, nor the thinking of any other vastly over-paid (in societal terms) player, is that when you get paid such a huge amount (in dollar terms and in percentage of a team's total salary budget), you are dooming the team to mediocrity, unless you play in one of MLB's 3 largest markets. You are also ruling out a large chunk of society that can no longer meaningfully afford your games, or very many per year. Everything one does has consequences, but Carlos does not see that the Jays' financial straits have anything to do with his choices.

So, bye-bye, CD, its been good to watch you.
Pistol - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 12:58 PM EDT (#31340) #
Whatever happens to Miguel Batista, the Jays are going to be short one decent #3/4 starter

Say Batista is a solid starter, you'd then have Halladay, Lilly, Batista, and Bush. Unless you're looking for a #5 to be a #3 while diverting money away from the bats and pen I don't see the need to sign a starter, much less take on someone else's problem.
_MR. MR - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 01:04 PM EDT (#31341) #
there is no way the blue jays pay 4.75 million dollars to an unproven closer. Miguel is in the rotation with Halladay, lilly, Bush and insert FA or trade here( A month ago I would have said Leiber but he's been pitching his way into a big contract) Probably Redman, because it happens every year. Chacin will be in the 'cuse and if he is successful he will take his regular turn in the rotation in July right after they trade lilly. I think there #1 priority is getting rid of hinske because he will soom make 3 and 5 mil. Also, Aaron Hill is here in 06
Coach - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 01:06 PM EDT (#31342) #
A comment by "Source" has been deleted. Sorry, whoever you are, but while it's OK to quote from outside articles, you may not repost them in their entirety.
robertdudek - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 01:08 PM EDT (#31343) #
A poster by the name of "Source" posted the entirety of a column with restricted access.

In future, please limit such quotations to a paragraph at most (citing the source, of course). Wherever possible provide a hyper-link to the material rather than quoting from it. If access is restricted please note that as you link to it.
_Keith Talent - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 01:10 PM EDT (#31344) #
I wouldn't want BH Kim anywhere near my team. The guy's a head case. Does nobody remember how he gave Fenway Park the middle finger during player introductions in last year's division series. This guy has serious confidence issues as well. And being locked in a country where he can't speak the language won't help him one bit. This guy does not have the make-up to be successful over here. Forget about him.
_Keith Talent - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 01:13 PM EDT (#31345) #
You are also ruling out a large chunk of society that can no longer meaningfully afford your games, or very many per year

I don't see this, earlweaverfan. You can see a Blue Jays game for $9, sometimes even $2.
_Magpie - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 01:30 PM EDT (#31346) #
Carlos does not see that the Jays' financial straits have anything to do with his choices.

I'm sure he sees it.

The budget wasn't $ 50 million when they offered him the money. There was a time when the Blue Jays were big spenders.

He would have to be an idiot to have turned it down.
Named For Hank - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 01:46 PM EDT (#31347) #
Are League's goggles clear or slightly blue-ish? My mind is telling me blue-ish, but I don't know why.
_Rob - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 02:00 PM EDT (#31348) #
I thought they were yellow frames, clear lenses, NFH. But I only saw them once, so he may have different kinds or I may be wrong.
Named For Hank - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 02:16 PM EDT (#31349) #
I believe you, Rob. Now Punchy is wearing yellow frames with clear lenses.
_Paul D - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 02:28 PM EDT (#31350) #
Does Delgado refuse to come out of the dugout because he's against the war, or is it because of what's happening in PR?

Jonathan, I was also thinking about Kim today. Here's a guy that's had success in his limited time as a starter (when with AZ) and has absolutely dominated as a reliever. Plus, he lost blew saves in two world series games and was able to rebound, so I'd think he can overcome his current problems. Maybe him and Contreras should both be traded to Montreal.

earlweaverfan, Delgado's salary has nothing to do with how much you pay for baseball tickets.
_Graham Hudson - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 02:44 PM EDT (#31351) #
You are also ruling out a large chunk of society that can no longer meaningfully afford your games, or very many per year.

Is this the usual illogical rant that player salaries are tied to ticket prices? It's amazing how the owners (of all team sports) have managed to pass this boondoggle off to the fans.

Very quickly: Ticket prices have every thing to do with inflation, supply & demand, and greed. Ticket prices have nothing to do with player salaries.
Craig B - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#31352) #
Ticket prices have every thing to do with inflation, supply & demand, and greed. Ticket prices have nothing to do with player salaries.

I'll say. If ticket prices had anything to do with player salaries, SkyDeck tickets would be a LOT more expensive than they are. As it is, they're the best live entertainment deal in the city.
Craig B - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 02:56 PM EDT (#31353) #
Moffatt, you can get that song playing in my head anytime. Coach, this redeems Johnny Horton...give him another shot, please.

BATTER'S BOX - Removed RP Mike Moffatt from the suspended list and placed him on the 25-man Roster.
Named For Hank - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 02:56 PM EDT (#31354) #
Thanks to Wayne H. for coining the phrase in that oh-so-memorable game thread.

Here it is:

Named For Hank - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 02:59 PM EDT (#31355) #
I'll say. If ticket prices had anything to do with player salaries, SkyDeck tickets would be a LOT more expensive than they are. As it is, they're the best live entertainment deal in the city.

Considering the fact that you need cable or satellite to watch the Jays play on TV, it's cheaper to watch 'em live from the upper deck. And like I keep saying, we have probably the best cheap seats in baseball.
_Ryan Lind - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 03:01 PM EDT (#31356) #
Oh man.

That kicks ass, NFH. How big is it?
_Chuck Van Den C - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#31357) #
Is this the usual illogical rant that player salaries are tied to ticket prices?

How about this gem from one of the NHL owners (Ottawa's I believe)? He said something along the lines of NHL ticket prices being too high, and that he'd like to see them lowered. How many fans now probably believe that the NHLPA sets ticket prices?
Named For Hank - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 03:06 PM EDT (#31358) #
It's about 8 feet long, Ryan.
_Jobu - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 03:13 PM EDT (#31359) #
Sitting in my stats class with my laptop, I naturally became quite bored. Then NFH's brilliance inspired me in a way only fellow artists can. So as NFH is the Carlos Delgado of Battersbox computer art, make way for my Dave Berg-ish creation of...

THRILLHOUSE

Craig B - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 03:28 PM EDT (#31360) #
NFH, that is AWESOME.

Jobu, that is also AWESOME. In an altogether more hilarious way.

Well done all.
_Jobu - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 03:36 PM EDT (#31361) #
You think that's awesome, you should have seen the looks I got from the lady sitting beside me as I created it.
Named For Hank - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#31362) #
Anyone who wishes to be present at the unveiling of the Hawaiian Punch-Out banner can still join us on Friday, October 1st in the Tom Wilson Souvenir Zone.
_The Original Ry - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#31363) #
How about this gem from one of the NHL owners (Ottawa's I believe)? He said something along the lines of NHL ticket prices being too high, and that he'd like to see them lowered. How many fans now probably believe that the NHLPA sets ticket prices?

I've seen a few comments like that. Bettman said this the day of the lockout:

"We owe it to hockey's fans to achieve an economic system that will result in affordable ticket prices and stable, competitive franchises."

It's a pretty standard line in CBA negotiations. Peter Angelos said something very similar during the last round of negotiations with the MLBPA. As someone with a background in economics, statements like this always make me cringe. Just once I'd like to see the owners/management called out on this.
robertdudek - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#31364) #
Affordable ticket prices - no that's pure b*llsh*t. Stable, competitive franchises - yes - this is one of the goals of the NHL owners. Roughly one-third of NHL franchises are drawing flies to their arenas, and once the novelty wears off in much of the sunbelt that problem could get worse.

So the choice is to have more socialism to help the weaker markets out, or see them fail. The players should choose carefully between having the status quo and fewer jobs, or a salary cap/punitive luxury taxes on high spending franchises and more jobs.

Baseball has comparatively fewer weak markets, but the commissioner (unlike Bettman) has expressed an interest in reducing the number of teams to weed out the weaker markets (and exert pressure on communities to get sweethart stadium deals).

In a decade or so, the effects from the current round of stadium building will come to an end, and you might have a situation where teams like the Reds, Pirates and Indians will join the D-Rays, Marlins and a few others in being chronically starved of sufficient revenue.

As I've said many many times before, a league where most teams take turns winning is preferable to one where a percentage of your teams have to run a shoestring operation because of revenue limitations. More competitive league = better league for the fans.

I wish Bettman were commissioner of baseball instead of Seligula.
_The Original Ry - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#31365) #
Just to clarify: my comments were regarding Bettman's reference to ticket prices. I don't know enough about the situation in hockey to comment on the competitive balance issues.
_Jim - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#31366) #
Can someone help me with a waiver rule question.

Let's use Russ Adams as my example. Say Russ was purchased July 17th from Syracuse of 2004. If he were to spend the entire 2005 season on the active 25-man roster would he use an option year in 2005? I was under the impression that he would, I have some others arguing the opposite.

Does anyone have any documentation of which way it works?
_Jim - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 05:37 PM EDT (#31367) #
'Say Russ was purchased July 17th from Syracuse of 2004.'

This is why I work with numbers and not words for a living.

How bout, Say Russ was purchased July 17th of 2004 from Syracuse.
_Jim - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 05:41 PM EDT (#31368) #
'I wish Bettman were commissioner of baseball instead of Seligula.'

I guess he wasn't one of the driving forces to move your team to North Carolina.
_Magpie - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 05:48 PM EDT (#31369) #
Rob Neyer has a handy little guide to how all this stuff works. COMN.

A player has three option years once he has been added to the 40 man roster (which must happen after he has three years as a professional or else he can be taken in the Rule 5 draft.)

Once he has been added to the 40 man roster, he has three option seasons, during which he can be sent up and down as often as the club likes (optioned to Syracuse, e.g.)

A player who is out of options is someone who has been on a 40 man roster during three different seasons, beginning with his fourth yeasr as a pro.

For example, Jose Cruz turned pro in 1995. Seattle did not have to add him to their 40 man roster until after the 1997 season. As it happens, he first made a 40 man roster when Seattle brought him up in June 1997. Therefore 1998 and 1999 were still "option years" and Toronto sent him to Syracuse in both seasons. By 2000, though, he was out of options.
_Mick - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 05:55 PM EDT (#31370) #
Let me know when this 'oil war' lowers my gas price.

The week before the U.S. election.
_Magpie - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#31371) #
The week before the U.S. election.

Right after they capture Osama...
Craig B - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 06:13 PM EDT (#31372) #
I wish Bettman were commissioner of baseball instead of Seligula.

I agree. For all his (minor) faults, Bettman is trying to grow and market his product.
Craig B - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 06:19 PM EDT (#31373) #
I guess he wasn't one of the driving forces to move your team to North Carolina.

He was one of the driving forces in moving my (admittedly distant) second-favorite team to the Desert. I don't see what that has against him, though - why force someone to lose buckets of money in a crappy marketplace? Hartford and Winnipeg and Quebec were not sustainable major league markets and that's why they were in the WHA to begin with.

The worst business mistake the NHL ever made post-1967 - and I know how harsh this sounds - was giving in to the WHA/NHL merger. After the WHA drove a huge number of NHL owners out of the business, the NHL repaid them not by taking no quarter, but by rescuing their franchises.

At any rate, would you have been happier if the Whalers stayed put and lost 60-65 games every year between then and now? The Whalers were in a position to lose money if their player payroll was zero. I mean, it's a legitimate question... if Whalers fans truly felt that way, maybe a small fund from the other owners to keep the team on life support for a few more years might have been appropriate.
_Ducey - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#31374) #
The worst business mistake the NHL ever made post-1967 - and I know how harsh this sounds - was giving in to the WHA/NHL merger. After the WHA drove a huge number of NHL owners out of the business, the NHL repaid them not by taking no quarter, but by rescuing their franchises.

I can't agree with this. At the time the WHA joined they were a viable option to the NHL's monopoly. It makes sense to get rid of competition where you can. If I recall correctly, the NHL got expansion fees and a lot of excitement out of the deal.

You remember Harold Ballard? Leaf's fans had bags over their heads for years. Meanwhile, the Oilers and even Jets and Nordiques were causing all the excitement in Canada. There are hockey fans outside of Toronto.

In retrospect, Winni and Quebec may not have been viable but they were at the time, given the bush league reality of the NHL.

Arguably, the biggest mistake by the NHL was chasing expansion fees in Phoenix, Florida, Nashville, Atlanta, Tampa Bay, San Jose etc. One or two might have been justified but there were too many too fast. These are the teams that are most in trouble because fans there will never identify with hockey.

While I am on the topic, I support a cap not because it will lower prices for tickets (although here in Edmonton it actually might because of our community based ownership) but as you say, because the competitive balance will really increase interest in the league. Peolpe in Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver etc would have some hope that their team could consistently challenge for the cup.
_Paul D - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 07:41 PM EDT (#31375) #
How can anyone say that there isn't competitive balance in hockey?
That blows my mind. The Stanley Cup finals were between Calgary and Tampa Bay! Vancouver and Calgary are already in the position to challenge for the cup.

With the number of teams that make the playoffs in the NHL pretty much every team has a shot.
Joe - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 08:03 PM EDT (#31376) #
http://me.woot.net
So option years work on calendar years (seasons) and not years of service? Wonder why that is, aside from the obvious "It's in the CBA."
_G.T. - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#31377) #
How can anyone say that there isn't competitive balance in hockey?

By simply not paying attention?

In the last three years, there have been TWELVE different teams make the Conference finals. How much more balanced can you get?

(Not among the 12 teams? Dallas. Vancouver. NYR. etc.)
_The Original Ry - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 08:21 PM EDT (#31378) #
So option years work on calendar years (seasons) and not years of service? Wonder why that is, aside from the obvious "It's in the CBA."

It's a bit of both. An option year is only used if the player is optioned to the minors during that year. For example, John Olerud would still have all three of his options because none of his teams have sent him to the minors on an optional assignment.

However, players with a certain amount of major league service time (I think five years) have the right to refuse an optional assignment to the minors. Continuing with the Olerud example, if the Yankees tried to option Olerud to Columbus, he could elect to become a free agent instead.
robertdudek - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 09:34 PM EDT (#31379) #
There is good competitive balance in the NHL - no doubt there. It's mostly to do with the free agency rules, which are much less player friendly than the NBA or MLB, and the fact that over half the teams make the playoffs. Nevertheless, there is still pressure for the low-revenue teams to trade off their best players as the value of their contracts approaches their open market value.

The problem is that there are too many markets that can't generate enough revenue to keep up with the richer half of the league. There are basically two choices - 1) relocate some teams/contract others or 2) do something to limit the distance between what the rich and poor clubs can spend.

It's clear that Bettman and most of the owner prefer option 2.
_Jim - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 09:36 PM EDT (#31380) #
'He was one of the driving forces in moving my (admittedly distant) second-favorite team to the Desert. I don't see what that has against him, though - why force someone to lose buckets of money in a crappy marketplace? Hartford and Winnipeg and Quebec were not sustainable major league markets and that's why they were in the WHA to begin with.'

I find it hard to believe that Raleigh, Nashville and Atlanta are any better then Winnipeg or Quebec (or even Hartford). My good friend the Commissioner decided that his franchises in New York and Boston would be stronger if there was not a franchise halfway between. Our now infamous Governor had an ace up his sleeve and decided to let Karmanos and the Whalers walk away. Of course that ace decided to famously (at least around here) stab him in the back later on in the game (for those who aren't familiar, Rowland had a deal with the New England Patriots to move them to Hartford, but Bob Kraft backed out at the last possible second - it was a great front page headline: 'Dear John').

'At any rate, would you have been happier if the Whalers stayed put and lost 60-65 games every year between then and now? The Whalers were in a position to lose money if their player payroll was zero. I mean, it's a legitimate question... if Whalers fans truly felt that way, maybe a small fund from the other owners to keep the team on life support for a few more years might have been appropriate.'

Let's say that the Yankees decide they can spend $250MM a year and the Red Sox keep adding seats on top of seats in Boston and get to a $200MM payroll. How would you feel if the Jays picked up and moved to the North Carolina Triad (High Point/Winston-Salem/Greensboro)? What if they had lost 90 games a year for 5-7 years? I know it was hyperbole, but the idea that the Whalers would have lost money with a zero payroll is silly. They needed a new building - WHICH THE STATE OFFERED TO BUILD, but the Greek said he'd rather play in an empty airplane hangar in Columbus, Ohio. He's pretty sharp Karmanos: he's only run his company into the ground and the situation in Raleigh gets worse by the month between the Hurricanes/Gale Force enterprises and the city of Raleigh.

If the Blue Jays ever move, I'll be sure to dig up this thread and see how it feels when the shoe is on the other foot.

'I wish Bettman were commissioner of baseball instead of Seligula.'

It's very shiek currently to bash Selig and call him things like Seligula. I hate things like interleague play and 'This Time it Counts', but baseball is huge right now here in the States. Here in the Red Sox/Yankee corridor it's never been bigger. I'm not a fan of the Wild Card, but in general I think the majority like the races and the extra round of playoffs. Baseball has had a buzz for the last year or so that it did not have even before the 1994 strike.

Hockey is an absolute afterthought in the United States. I have only had one person even comment to me about the lockout (I work with someone related to John Madden of the Devils). Gary B has led the NHL to the brink of disaster. When your sport in general loses more money by playing then by not playing, I'd hardly say you've earned a lot of points as a leader. One of the most simple (and important) concepts in business is to stick to your core competencies. The NHL decided that places like Phoenix, Miami and Dallas were better for the long term health of their organization then places like Winnipeg, Quebec City and Hartford. I can't see how anyone could look at what has happened and not see that the 'southernization' of the NHL has be an utter and complete disaster.

I'm not going to lie and say I'm not bitter. I gave my heart to a hockey franchise that picked up and moved. All we ever had was the University of Connecticut and the Hartford Whalers all to ourselves. I've never followed sports the same, and I save most of my sporting emotion for a University that thankfully cannot get up and move.

Gary Bettman thought that his league could run with the Big Dogs. He was 100% wrong. The league got blasted in the last lockout, and he led the league away from the places where people LOVED the sport to places where he thought he could get his share of the ENTERTAINMENT dollar. You find out pretty fast that the fans in Phoenix aren't nearly as patient as the fans in Hartford. You think things are bad for the Devil Rays? Let them lose for another 15 years like they are now and they will know what it was like to bleed Green and Blue. I've been to the arena in Carolina many times, to compare the two fan bases is an insult to the people of Connecticut who still showed up to the tune of 14k a night in 1996-97 even after hope was lost and the team rolled over and played dead on the ice for about the 10th straight season.
robertdudek - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 09:39 PM EDT (#31381) #
It's a bit of both. An option year is only used if the player is optioned to the minors during that year. For example, John Olerud would still have all three of his options because none of his teams have sent him to the minors on an optional assignment.

I may be crazy, but I'm pretty sure this is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. The very first year a player is put on the 40-man roster is option year 1. In Olerud's case this was 1989 when the Jays brought him up for a couple of games. Regardless of what happens after that, the next year is option year 2, and the year after is year 3.

So Olerud ran out of options after 1991.
robertdudek - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 09:50 PM EDT (#31382) #
Long term Winnipeg just has to be a better market than Nashville. There are probably 10 times as many hockey fans in Winnipeg than in Nashville (that's a conservative estimate) and when the novelty wears off Nashville is toast. Ditto for Carolina, Florida and perhaps Anaheim.

What I see as the most likely scenario is that two of the American teams move to Canada (Winnipeg and Hamilton) and a couple others fold. 28-team NHL, 8 in Canada.
_Jim - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 09:59 PM EDT (#31383) #
'Long term Winnipeg just has to be a better market than Nashville. There are probably 10 times as many hockey fans in Winnipeg than in Nashville (that's a conservative estimate) and when the novelty wears off Nashville is toast. Ditto for Carolina, Florida and perhaps Anaheim.'

I spent a week visiting the Cactus League last spring. This was not long after the Coyotes new building opened. There was zero interest in the hockey team as far as I can tell. There was zero interest in hockey as far as I could tell.
robertdudek - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 10:02 PM EDT (#31384) #
I defer to Jim about the Hartford hockey market. And hey, build a new arena and you'll probably get one of those struggling franchises. Minnesota got an expansion team.

I forgot to add Phoenix to the list. I think it may just survive, because it is one of the fastest growing metropolitan areas in the US. Pittsburgh is also on life-support without a new arena.

The problems the NHL faces are daunting - of a much graver nature than what MLB has faced. I concur that baseball is strong in the US, though the northeast, as perhaps the most intensely passionate region in the US, isn't exactly the best barometer. I wonder how much of that is the result of the new pleasure palaces built in the last 14 years - some of it to be sure. There are signs that shiny new parks in Milwaukee, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati, three areas that are not growing rapidly population wise, are not the panacea these clubs hoped they would be.
_Jim - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 10:08 PM EDT (#31385) #
'I defer to Jim about the Hartford hockey market'

It's not paradise, but it's better then Nashville :).

'I concur that baseball is strong in the US, though the northeast, as perhaps the most intensely passionate region in the US, isn't exactly the best barometer.'

Agreed. Toronto also isn't the best barometer for hockey though.

'I wonder how much of that is the result of the new pleasure palaces built in the last 14 years - some of it to be sure. There are signs that shiny new parks in Milwaukee, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati, three areas that are not growing rapidly population wise, are not the panacea these clubs hoped they would be.'

It's folly to think that a stadium can cure everything. It can help, things would probably be worse in those cities without the stadiums, but like everyone agreed in the Blue Jay marketing thread, winning is the only thing that consistently draws (and someplaces like Miami even that doesn't work). If the Yankees were 81-81 in 2006, they would struggle to draw 2MM - around half what they draw now.
robertdudek - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 10:14 PM EDT (#31386) #
It's always difficult when a city loses it's franchise, particularly when the league is expanding at the same time. I would have preferred the league to stay in Hartford, Quebec, Winnipeg and Minnesota and chose it's southern cities with a little more care.

There seems to be little doubt that Bettman's gamble was for a full assault on the US sunbelt. With the exception of TB, Dallas and San Jose, it seems to have been a failure (let's wait and see what happens if those teams ever start to lose year after year).

With the right system in place to decrease the distance between the haves and the have nots, the markets that lost NHL teams are still viable. Now that the Canadian dollar is stronger and looking like it's heading through the 80 cent mark, the immediate financials for Canadian-based teams look much better than when the looney was languishing at 60 cents US.
robertdudek - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 10:17 PM EDT (#31387) #
winning is the only thing that consistently draws (and someplaces like Miami even that doesn't work).

That's when you really start worrying. To me that is the surest sign that Miami and Minnesota either need a new park, or they are too weak to survive under the current set up.
Craig B - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 10:50 PM EDT (#31388) #
How would you feel if the Jays picked up and moved to the North Carolina Triad (High Point/Winston-Salem/Greensboro)?

I'd be upset - a reaction I totally understand, believe me. I guess the difference between me and most people is that I think that's a real possibility, while most people around here and elsewhere don't see it.

Anyway, I was just saying (clumsily) that some things are not meant to be. Like Hamilton, where I live, Hartford now has quality, affordable pro hockey that's frankly a better deal for the people of Hartford.

'I defer to Jim about the Hartford hockey market'

It's not paradise, but it's better then Nashville :)


I just have to say I gotta disagree. I mean, I know that there are more hockey fans (or were) in Hartford than in Nashville, but the guys who pay the bills are the guys who manage multi-million budgets... corporate big wheels. Those guys exist in a lot of those Sun Belt cities, but they sure as hell don't exist in Hartford or Winnipeg or Quebec City.

In Olerud's case this was 1989 when the Jays brought him up for a couple of games. Regardless of what happens after that, the next year is option year 2, and the year after is year 3.

So Olerud ran out of options after 1991.


My recollection is that September callups are not included. I'm not sure about this, and I'll check it.
robertdudek - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 11:13 PM EDT (#31389) #
What if the corporate big wigs stop paying the freight? After all, if general interest in the Nashville Predators falls far enough, no corporate big wig will be caught dead there.
robertdudek - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 11:20 PM EDT (#31390) #
From Neyer's Transactions Primer:

"Options"
After three years as a pro, a player must be protected on a team's 40-man roster, or he is eligible for the Rule 5 draft (more on that later). Once he's served those three years, and assuming he is added to the 40-man roster, his club then has what are called "options" on him.

When a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the 25-man Major League roster, he is on "optional assignment." One common misconception about the rules is that a player may only be "optioned out" three times. Actually, each player has three option years, and he can be sent up and down as many times as the club chooses within those three seasons.

When you hear that a player is "out of options," that means he's been on the 40-man roster during three different seasons, beginning with his fourth as a pro, and to be sent down again he'll have to clear waivers (more on those below).


If my reading of this is correct, option year 1 starts in the calendar year in which the player is first put on the 40-man roster. Since September call-ups obviously have to be on the 40-man roster, it counts as an option year.

It seems possible that if a player is outrighted (i.e taken off the 40-man roster), clears waivers and stays off the 40-man roster for an entire calendar year, this does not count as an option year. I'm not sure this is correct, but Neyer's synopsis seems to imply this.
_Jim - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 11:38 PM EDT (#31391) #
'Anyway, I was just saying (clumsily) that some things are not meant to be. Like Hamilton, where I live, Hartford now has quality, affordable pro hockey that's frankly a better deal for the people of Hartford.'

I 100% disagree. I think the majority of fans agree with me, as they stay away in droves and when the team won the Calder Cup a few years ago, not only did noone show up, noone cared. It's no different then saying that I'm better off having the New Britain Rock Cats then the Connecticut Expos. I'll have to respectfully disagree with that premise. I'll take caring about a losing team over inexpensive family fun entertainment any day of the week.

I agree that some things are meant to be, and I never thought they would stay forever. I do believe it would have been in the NHL's best interest to not model themselves after the other 3 major leagues and use the passion of the fans in the smaller markets as a positive. If only the league handled the last lockout like it looks like they are going to handle this lockout.

'I just have to say I gotta disagree. I mean, I know that there are more hockey fans (or were) in Hartford than in Nashville, but the guys who pay the bills are the guys who manage multi-million budgets... corporate big wheels. Those guys exist in a lot of those Sun Belt cities, but they sure as hell don't exist in Hartford or Winnipeg or Quebec City.'

This is true, it's the growing industries of RTP that drew the Whale from Hartford to Carolina. But it's been 7 seasons give or take because of the time in Greensboro - just when are the giants of industry in Research Triangle Park going to step up to the plate?

While Hartford might not be Boston, it's still miles ahead of those Canadian cities in industry. The company I work for is in Fortune's Top 60 (or so) and it's lovely headquarters are right in beautiful Hartford. It was the lack of a suitable arena more then industry that cost us our team, of course we offered to build an arena, but the INDUSTRIAL GENIUS that is Peter Karmanos didn't want it.
_Wayne H. - Friday, September 24 2004 @ 11:42 PM EDT (#31392) #
I'd certainly like to be at SkyDome to see that great Hawaiian Punch-Out Punchy banner.

It looks great.

Alas, I am here in Winnipeg, where there is no MLB, but where the NHL would outdraw at least four Sunbelt franchises.
_The Original Ry - Saturday, September 25 2004 @ 12:32 AM EDT (#31393) #
Robert, I'm pretty sure my understanding of options is the correct one. A player actually has to be sent to the minors in order for an option to be used. For example, Bob File has been optioned to the minors this year despite this being his fourth season on the 40-man roster. File was not optioned to the minors in 2002, so he still had one remaining option this year. Neyer's article is a simplified version of the rules and it doesn't actually contradict what I said earlier.

To be on the safe side, I just fired off an E-Mail to Dan Szymborski to get an official ruling on this one.
robertdudek - Saturday, September 25 2004 @ 12:41 AM EDT (#31394) #
Didn't File get outrighted at one point and missed a whole year? It could be that his case is like the hypothetical I mentioned, where file was off the 40-man roster for an entire calendar year.

Being on the 40-man roster, you could be in the minors the whole time or the majors the whole time - you're still on the 40 man and it counts as an option year.

It could be that File's option years were/are 2001, 2002, 2004, with him being off the 40-man because of injury during all of 2003.
robertdudek - Saturday, September 25 2004 @ 01:00 AM EDT (#31395) #
From further reading, it appears you're right.

If a player spends the whole year in the majors an option year is not used up. Any player who is sent to the minors (even during spring training) uses up an option year.

But I also found that a player with 3 years of major league service time can refuse option to the minors.
robertdudek - Saturday, September 25 2004 @ 01:08 AM EDT (#31396) #
Sorry, a player with 5 years major league service time can refuse an option; a player with 3.0+ must clear waivers.
_The Original Ry - Saturday, September 25 2004 @ 01:32 AM EDT (#31397) #
When I made my original post, I was unsure if it was three years or five years (the Blue Jays media guide listed a couple of different situations, one using three years and the other using five). Thanks for clearing it up.

Looking into the File case a bit further, it's a real head-scratcher. The Blue Jays media guides have him being optioned to the minors in 2001 (in the spring), 2002 and 2003, and the team's website clearly has him being optioned to the minors twice this year. That's four optional assignments in four years and that can't possibly be true. After looking at the timing of the transactions and the length of time he spent in the minors during those years, I would guess File's 2003 optional assignment is the inaccurate one. It's either that or there's a little-known exception to the options rules somewhere.
_Rob - Saturday, September 25 2004 @ 01:45 AM EDT (#31398) #
http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/transactions.jsp?maj_team=tor&year=2003&month=3
Official Site, Transaction info re: Bob File, 2003 (COMN):

3/11/03: Agreed to one-year contracts with RHP Bob File, IF Eric Hinske, OF Alexis Rios and OF Vernon Wells.
3/26/03: Placed Bob File on the DL with shoulder problems, retroactive to March 21.
5/27/03: Transferred RHP Bob File from the 15-day DL to the 60-day DL.

That media guide must be a misprint, Ryan, as he was not on optional assignment at all in 2003.
He was too busy being hurt. ;)
_Dan Szymborski - Saturday, September 25 2004 @ 03:06 AM EDT (#31399) #
It gets clearer when you remember what an option year is shorthand for - a year in which a player can be placed on optional assignment, defined by the CBA as players that are on the 40-man roster but not the 25-man roster when the 25-man roster is in effect (start of season until 1st of september).

Sending a player to the minors in spring training counts as an option year because the 25-man roster isn't a continual existence (if that makes any sense) and you physically have to put a player on optional assignment when the 25-man roster returns to existence in April. It's really late, I'm still intoxicated and that sort of makes sense to me as I described it.

Another what which makes it all clearer is hwo you consider the 40-man roster. For all intents and purposes, every player on the 40-man roster gets a promotion on September 1 when the 25-man roster goes into hibernation. So when a player on the 40-man roster is cut in spring training, he didn't just not make the team, he's being physically optioned. So that uses up an option year to do.

Now, if none of this makes any sense, I'll re-write this tomorrow.
_The Original Ry - Saturday, September 25 2004 @ 12:30 PM EDT (#31400) #
Thanks for the help, Dan.

This is the 2003 File transaction that's throwing me off, from page 167 of the 2004 media guide:

Aug. 19 - RHP BOB FILE returned from rehab assignment, re-instated from the 60-day disabled and optioned to Syracuse (AAA)

If it's not listed on the Jays official site, then perhaps it is an error.
_Rob - Saturday, September 25 2004 @ 08:39 PM EDT (#31401) #
Bob File, optional assignments:
2001: April 20
2002: May 22
2003: No optional assignment*
2004: May 14, July 22

There may be more optional assignments in 2001 or 2002, but once I found one, I figured his option year was used up for that calendar year.

* He pitched 10.2 innings in 11 games for Syracuse this year, and 3 IP in 3 games (with two games started, strange) for Dunedin. So he must have been optioned or something. Maybe he was on rehab; does that count as an option year?
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