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Just watching the show
Over and over again
Knew it was time
He'd made up his mind
To leave his dead life behind


Jays 9 - Rays 7

Boxscore

  1. Recaps:

    • Spencer Fordin:

        Sloppy scorecards. That was the promotion at SkyDome on Sunday, when the Blue Jays and Devil Rays made a mess out of the early innings.

        One team scored, the other answered. The scoreboard was full of such call-and-response, but Toronto took control of the game with one decisive rally. The end result was a 9-7 win, which pulled the Jays within two games of fourth-place Tampa Bay.

        "It was kind of a slugfest early there, but the pitchers came through late," said Toronto manager John Gibbons. "We won the game, so it was another good one."

        All the early runs produced a predictable response: Both starting pitchers were gone by the end of the fourth inning, victims of an early knockout. Scott Kazmir (2-2), the 20-year-old southpaw sensation, lasted just six outs after allowing seven runs on six hits.

    • Ian Harrison:

        Coming off the best start of his brief career, rookie Scott Kazmir suffered through his worst start on Sunday. The lefty allowed a career-high seven runs as the Toronto Blue Jays beat the Devil Rays, 9-7.

        "There's a couple of pitches I want back," he said. "It's just a frustrating day."

    • Mike Ganter:

        It was a game befitting two teams fighting to avoid a last-place finish. In the end, the only difference was a pair of third-inning doubles, one that took a crazy hop off the steaming turf and another that got lost in the bright sun in right field as Jose Cruz ducked for cover.

        The doubles proved the impetus for a five-run rally that was just enough for the Jays to turn yesterday's game into a 9-7 win.

    • CP:

        The Toronto Blue Jays are doing their best to get out of the cellar in the American League East.

        Carlos Delgado had three hits and Vernon Wells hit a home run as the Blue Jays beat the Tampa Bay Devil Rays 9-7 in an ugly, error-filled slugfest on Sunday. "It was kind of a slugfest early there but the pitchers came through late and we won the game," said Blue Jays manager John Gibbons after his team took two of three from the fourth-place Rays.

    • Allan Ryan:

        Chulk, of course, also had other things on his mind. Mostly, the orange, pink and yellow frock he'd be obliged to wear — with knee socks — through two airports and all the way to New York's stately Park Plaza Hotel.

        This comes with the territory — namely with being a Blue Jay rookie (and many teams carry on with the ritual) on the final road trip of the year. Then again, this gangly troupe of eight could probably hit the streets and not stand out that badly.



  2. Fordin Notes on Miguel Batista:

      Call it the Portable Miguel Batista, and bring it to any bullpen.

      Every time he pitches, the man has plenty to say. He spews half-baked anecdotes and aphorisms, some of them accurate and most of them entertaining. One thing's abundantly clear, even after one relief appearance: The writers -- and readers -- are the main winners in this arrangement.

    In other news Gustavo Chacin and Brandon League have been called up to the big team. Congratulations Brandon and Gustavo!

  3. Ganter Notes on Miguel Batista and the two call-ups:

      The Jays transferred outfielder Frank Catalanotto to the 60-day disabled and designated reliever Aquilino Lopez for assignment to free up spots for pitchers Gustavo Chacin and Brandon League.

    More details about the roster moves can be found in CP's "Jays promote Chacin, League".

  4. In "Prospects given chance to shine with the big club" Millson describes how the call-ups will impact the rotation:

      That means left-hander Ted Lilly's start will be bumped to Wednesday. Halladay will come off the disabled list to make his first start since July 16 tomorrow night against the Yankees, who defeated the Boston Red Sox yesterday to open a 4½-game lead in the American League East.

      "Lilly has pitched a lot of innings [1861/3] and we wanted to give him an extra day," interim manager John Gibbons said. "Even if we didn't have another guy, there was a chance we were going to spot-start somebody."

    What are everyone's opinions on the moves? I'm really looking forward to seeing these two pitch and gives even the most jaded Jays fans a reason to watch the rest of the season.

  5. In "Young pitchers throw some light on future" Richard Griffin seems particularly excited to see Brandon League pitch:

      The Jays need some phee-noms of their own if they are going to sell this team to casual fans next season. One thing is certain: Casual fans aren't excited by David Bush, Vinnie Chulk, Jason Frasor, Josh Towers or Justin Miller. The skills of those guys are too subtle.

      Players to excite the casual fans, not just in Toronto, are the hitters who bomb tape-measure homers and pitchers with the ability to throw 100 miles per hour. Remember the ripple that went through the crowd in Billy Koch's early, flame-throwing years whenever he would hit triple digits on the Jumbotron.

      With that in mind, the Jays have just called up another with that ability, blazing right-hander Brandon League. The 21-year-old Hawaiian appeared several times during the spring in the Grapefruit League and impressed Jays coaches with his maturity.


  6. Tonight's 7:05PM EST start in New York: This one is a must watch for Jays fans, as RHP Gustavo Chacin makes his major league debut against RHP Javier Vazquez (14-9, 4.75 ERA). Spencer Fordin has all the details in his game preview.
Jays Roundup - Sammy Was Low | 170 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 09:26 AM EDT (#34388) #
Nice to see the Jays spread their wings, and maintain their shot at staying out of the cellar.
_Moffatt - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 09:27 AM EDT (#34389) #
Nice to see the Jays spread their wings, and maintain their shot at staying out of the cellar.

Wow. I thought today's was quite tough. Before I award any prizes: How did you figure out today's?
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 09:33 AM EDT (#34390) #
I have a friend who's a huge Queen fan, and recognized the album it was off of. A little work on www.allmusic.com, and all became clear.
_Moffatt - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 09:41 AM EDT (#34391) #
I have a friend who's a huge Queen fan, and recognized the album it was off of.

Excellent. Yesterday's Roundup song was We Will Rock You, so I decided to take the other single from the album News of the World: John Deacon's Spread Your Wings.

Due to the sheer difficulty of the reference, you get 200 million points, a picture of the Spread Your Wings single:



and of course, a cuttlefish:

.

Great work Tyler!
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 09:56 AM EDT (#34392) #
"A little work on www.allmusic.com"? That sounds like "cheating" to me! I mean really, I can do a "little work" on Google and find the lyric just as easily! :)
_Christopher - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 10:07 AM EDT (#34393) #
A little work on www.allmusic.com, and all became clear.

What's the official procedure for challenging the awarding of a cuttlefish? I can't find it on the site anywhere.

:)
_Moffatt - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 10:10 AM EDT (#34394) #
My policy is that if you didn't do a direct Google search on the lyrics, it's okay. So if you know the song is from, say, Use Your Illusion, and look up the titles of the songs from that album(s), that's fine.
_Fozzy - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 10:19 AM EDT (#34395) #
So is tonight's game going to be broadcast?
_Moffatt - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 10:21 AM EDT (#34396) #
So is tonight's game going to be broadcast?

UGH! I didn't realize that it wouldn't be on TV.

I guess I'll spend the night listening to it on the radio while taking out my frustrations on the exercise bike. :)
Coach - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 10:24 AM EDT (#34397) #
Unfortunately, the Official Site says it's available only on MLB TV, and on Sportsnet's site, they have Baltimore @ Boston listed. My Rogers Digital program guide agrees. There's a faint glimmer of hope, though -- in the Star today, the daily listing says Jays-Yankees on RSO. I doubt that they've rushed a crew there (TSN has the next two games) but even if they provide the NY feed, Jays fans will be grateful.
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 10:30 AM EDT (#34398) #
Wow, something Griffin's excited about? I don't know whether to be happy or terrified. ;)

I actually understand and agree with what he's saying. It's hard for the casual fan to relate to something that's not spectacular, so if big numbers on the JumboTron are coming with League, that's great. It's also something marketable.

I still maintain that a good marketing campaign for next year will involve "getting in on the ground floor". If Torontonians like anything, it's being able to feel superior to their neighbors. Make a campaign about how they'll be able to taunt everybody else as bandwagon fans in a couple of years and you could connect in a big way.

Oh, and it's my studied, recommended opinion that the Season's Pass should return next year. ;)

Honestly, they could double the price and I'd still buy it.
_Ryan Day - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 10:40 AM EDT (#34399) #
One thing is certain: Casual fans aren't excited by David Bush, Vinnie Chulk, Jason Frasor, Josh Towers or Justin Miller. The skills of those guys are too subtle ... Remember the ripple that went through the crowd in Billy Koch's early, flame-throwing years whenever he would hit triple digits on the Jumbotron.

I understand what Griffin's saying - it is cool to see a guy throw 100mph - but I think he's overstating it. For all his heat, Koch is basically an average reliever, and nobody's filling a stadium to see that.

A lot of fans love the "smart" or "little guy" ballplayers. Just look at the followings Reed Johnson and Josh Towers have. These are pretty much average players - maybe even a bit below - but are immensely popular with the fans.

If anything, the fans are a lot more forgiving with the "little guys". If Delgado makes one little mistake, he gets jumped on by every media outlet and fan site on the planet. Reed Johnson, on the other hand, can hit like a utility infielder for months at a time and still be a fan favourite because he hustles.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 10:51 AM EDT (#34400) #
Maybe I'm just a contrarian, but I'm of the opinion that the Jays would be nuts to bring back the Star Pass. The thing is, all of you guys around here will spend at least $81 on tickets next year. If the team sucks, maybe $81 will be your limit, but if the team is contention, I suspect that like me, you guys will find the money somewhere to catch games down the stretch. I also suspect that most of you with the Star passes don't spend much in the SkyDome in terms of food and whatnot. I'm not a Star Pass holder, as I'm lucky enough to know someone with some clout, but I'd be one if I didn't, and I don't spend much money on food and crap at the 'Dome. When you consider that the Jays see little, if any, of that revenue, another reason for the Star Pass has vanished. I also can say that there are many people who pay full price for their season tickets, who get a little bitter when the person sitting next to them in the 100 level snuck down and is paying 1$ to be at the game.

If someone can make a case to me beyond "I like seeing 81 games for really, really cheap" I'm open to hearing it, but from my perspective, it makes sense for the Jays to do away with the Star Pass. The people who buy it will spend at least 81$ anyway, and more if the team doesn't suck.
_Keith Talent - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#34401) #
To add to Tyler's point, I was in Buffalo a few weeks ago and went to a Bisons home game. Their cheapest seat turned out to be several dollars more than the Blue Jays cheapest seat. We're paying below AAA prices here already.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 10:58 AM EDT (#34402) #
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:cq08b594psz0
Christoper, feel free to COMN if you want to see the AMG review for "Spread Your Wings", which includes the fact that the character's name is Sammy, as referenced in the title of this thread. Maybe you thought I just went to the front page and there was something like "The answer to the lyric of the day on battersbox.ca is "Spread Your Wings"?

BTW, there is no finer site in the world for music miscellania than AMG, for the uninitiated. Fantastic.
_Keith Talent - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:02 AM EDT (#34403) #
Did we get a final answer on uniform changes for next year? Was Fozzy mistaken by seeing those giveaway Blue Jay hats for credit card applications instead of authentic 2005 hats? Fozzy described the 2005 hat he say as "navy blue" whereas the giveaway hats are certainly a light shade of "royal blue".

Navy blue would be cool.
_Moffatt - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:06 AM EDT (#34404) #
Wow. The reviewer likes the song a whole lot better than I do, as it's one of my least favourite Queen singles. Go figure.

For underrated Queen songs, see You Take My Breath Away.
_Jordan - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:14 AM EDT (#34405) #
Hard throwers get fans pumped up, and so does the pounding metal music they play when a guy enters the game; but both thrills last only so long as the pitcher is successful. And you don't need to throw hard to do that. Eric Gagne drives the Dodgers fans crazy when he comes stomping in to Welcome to the Jungle, but that's because they know he'll wipe out the opposition batters with his fastball/change combo and accuracy. Trevor Hoffman did the same thing with Hell's Bells closing out games in San Diego -- but Hoffman is a change-up artist and has never thrown 99 mph. Mariano Rivera gets Yankee fans on his feet every time he gets two strikes on a batter, but his raw stuff hasn't been overpowering in years.

Fans love the 100-mph fastballs -- so long as they're not sailing out of the strike zone for ball four, or over the left-field wall. Give me Keith Foulke over Billy Koch any day of the week.
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:16 AM EDT (#34406) #
look at the followings Reed Johnson and Josh Towers have

Does Josh Towers really have a following? (Seriously, I'm not trying to be sarcastic).

That's got me to thinking... what kind of players have become really popular in Toronto? As great as they may have been as ballplayers, I never got the sense that they were really well-liked. I'm trying to think of players who became far more popular than guys of their abilities might've ordinarily been... Wendel-like, if you will. Alfredo Griffin? Mookie Wilson? Todd Stottlemyre? I was a fan of Todd's, as were several of my friends at the time, though in retrospect I now wonder if that was largely because he seemed as immature as we were. :)

Oh, I know... don't know why I didn't think of him earlier -- Alex Gonzalez. Must've got him blocked out of my memory. :)

Trying to think of Jays who have been really popular, I can't come up with too many names, though the list is longer than I initially thought it might be. I figured that if a guy was thought of enough to get a nickname, it was a sign he had a following. I wouldn't include guys like McGriff and Olerud, who were certainly respected, though not really loved. Here's my list (in no particular order):

John Mayberry
Kelly Gruber
Robbie Alomar
Joe Carter
Dave Winfield
Paul Molitor
Pat Hentgen
Tom Henke
Ernie Whitt
Tony Fernandez
Pat Borders
Carlos Delgado
Lloyd Moseby (?)
Devon White (?)
Jesse Barfield (?)
Shawn Green (?)
Rick Bosetti (?)
Willie Upshaw (? If only to hear Murray Eldon announce his name?)

Who am I missing?

I don't have much memory of the team pre-1982 or thereabouts, so I'm sure there are several early Jays that belong. (Maybe Stieb does, too, as I suspect he was probably more popular when he was the only good thing on a bad team).
_R Billie - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:17 AM EDT (#34407) #
Being a season pass holder, I have to say it's generally true that I don't spend money on food but that has nothing to do with the season pass. Occasionally I will have a sub or something. The two main problems I have is:

A) For the most part unhealthy. Not a priority for everyone but as someone who goes to games fairly regularly I don't want to be spending money on stuff that isn't good for me.

B) For the most part unreasonably priced. Sure if you get a slice of pizza it's under $4 but it's a SLICE OF PIZZA. 90% cheese and dough. Combine this with concern A and I'm even less likely to spend money on junk food I can get for half the price elsewhere.
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:21 AM EDT (#34408) #
If someone can make a case to me beyond "I like seeing 81 games for really, really cheap" I'm open to hearing it, but from my perspective, it makes sense for the Jays to do away with the Star Pass. The people who buy it will spend at least 81$ anyway, and more if the team doesn't suck.

You're right, I'd probably go to about ten games next year if there was no season's pass. However, you're wrong on the concessions and the like -- I often use the fact that I've paid virtually nothing for my ticket to justify buying a slice of pizza, some sushi, a coke, some popcorn or something like that. If you averaged it out, I'd guess that I spend around $5 a game on concessions, and have been to about 50 games. On top of that, I've purchased a new hat (at full price) and a new jersey (on the cheap) both from the Dome concessions this year. Oh, and a baby-sized new jersey. Last year with the pass I bought two jerseys and a hat (one jersey for me, and the hat and other jersey for my wife) plus assorted other goofiness (a blue horn and a big #1 finger for our little cousins, other stuff).

And even better for the Jays, we bring other people with us, and they buy tickets (or we buy them). This year I've brought my dad twice, our cousins once, Vanessa's dad and two of her uncles and her grandparents once, and an entire bachelor party of a dozen people.

So let's add up my spending for this year:

Season's Pass: $81
Concessions: $200
Hat: $40
Jersey: $30
Baby Jersey: $20
Tickets for my dad: $40
Tickets for our cousins: $20
Tickets for Vanessa's extended family: $200
Tickets for the bachelor party: $120

That's over $700 when you add it up.

Would I have spent some of that without the pass? Probably. But all of it? Probably not.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:22 AM EDT (#34409) #
R Billie, you can say that there isn't a connection between the food and the pass, but there, or at least there would be for me. The reason I don't spend much money in the 'Dome? I'm but a poor and humble student. I'd be all over getting 81 tix for 81 bucks if I didn't have access to them, but once they've got me through the door, they're still not getting much more $ out of me. I suspect that many of those purchasing the 81$ pass, if perhaps wealthier than I am, still have an eye for value, and that doesn't necessarily exist with those paying 60$ for a seat. Pizza at 4$ is a lot more palatable when it's 1/15 the cost of your ticket then when it's 400% the cost of your ticket.
Thomas - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:24 AM EDT (#34410) #
It escaped my notice originally, but speaking of Billy Koch he left the Marlins on September 1st to attend to personal matters, and is not expected to return this year.

Here's hoping that everything is allright and Billy and his family are able to overcome the difficulties they're facing.

Tyler, while I think the rest of your argument has merit, I don't think this point is compelling, I also can say that there are many people who pay full price for their season tickets, who get a little bitter when the person sitting next to them in the 100 level snuck down and is paying 1$ to be at the game.

If I paid $50 a seat for ones right down near the baseline I'm either a) the type who isn't going to care if someone sneaks down because I'm laid-back and, regardless, am assured of my seat while they have to worry about someone else legitmately having their seat or b) I'm going to be angry that people are sitting in my section when they shouldn't be, regardless of if they paid $9 or $1. I doubt they're going to think $1 is too cheap, but not care if the guy who sneaks down pays $9 for his ticket. That's just a problem that comes from fans trying to sneak to better seats, whatever your cost is.

I agree that in most, probably not every but the high majority of cases, the fans will spend at least $81 on tickets if there is no Seasons Pass, and will likely spend more if the team does well. The people who may go to less than $81 worth of games will be outweighed by the people who are now paying and go to more than $81 worth of games.

The only tangible benefits that I can see are the money spent on SkyDome food/drinks (I don't spend a lot, but others do), the good publicity that results from it and things like the Cheer Club/O-Drum, which in theory could help to bring out more fans if SkyDome was a livlier place to be at. There's no evidence that the Cheer Club does bring out more people, but if the O-Drum became a regular, more noticable occurence, it may do that. Unfortunately, it's a lot harder for that to happen with no Season's Pass as the members will all likely be attending 10 games or so, and it will not become a regular occurence/
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:25 AM EDT (#34411) #
I would suggest that everyone purchasing upper deck tickets most of the time has an eye for value.
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:26 AM EDT (#34412) #
We're paying below AAA prices here already

When did the team start charging one price for all 500-level tickets, anyways? I was quite happy to pay $9 to sit up there behind home plate when I was there a few weeks ago.

I remember "back-in-the-day" those seats were the same price as the 200-level outfield seats. (Or was it the 100-level ones?). Now it costs several times as much to sit in the outfield in what are, in my estimation anyways, inferior seats. Sitting behind the outfielders is nice if you want to watch bullpen hijinks, or check out the sunflower seeds left in the field, but you can't really see the plate too well from there...

Being a poor student, I always used to order the $5 seats behind the foul net, and tried to move to the better seats, which cost about 3x as much. Paying $9 to sit there seems like a great bargain to me, especially compared with the 100- and 200-level prices (let alone what it takes to get in to see anything at the ACC)...

(I've wondered why the Cheer Club doesn't sit behind the plate, actually)
_Moffatt - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:27 AM EDT (#34413) #
At any rate, I think it's more enjoyable to watch a game when there are 30,000 people in the stadium instead of 3,000, and the Star Pass certainly helps get more butts in the seats.

If the team was drawing 2.5 million a year, I'd think the Star Pass idea would be crazy. But this team needs all the fans it can get, particularly after this disappointing season.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:27 AM EDT (#34414) #
NFH, you're making my argument for me when you say "I often use the fact that I've paid virtually nothing for my ticket to justify buying a slice of pizza, some sushi, a coke, some popcorn or something like that." Of your 9$ ticket, the Jays get virtually all of that, minus commission, and perhaps the cost of printing the ticket. Compare that to the same $ being spent on food, where they have to pay the cost of food, the cost of the people serving, split the money with SkyDome and Pizza Pizza-the slice of pie left to be tossed into Delgado's bank account is quite small.

If I'm the Jays and people have X dollars to spend on baseball, I'd much rather those dollars were spent on tickets than on food. The Jays probably get about 85% of ever dollar spent on tickets, and maybe 10% of every dollar spent on food. The same economics apply to the sale of merchandise, with perhaps 50% of revenue going to the Jays, but even so, I'm sure that they'd rather have your money come in for tickets instead.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#34415) #
Fair point on the people sneaking down to better seats Thomas-it would irritate me regardless of what they were paying. The Jays are particularly brutal at policing this-I've seen them force people to move back 1 row for no reason, but they regularly let the people from the cheaps flood down.

In relation to the Cheer Club, as cool as I think it is (which I do), I don't think it adds that much to the Jays. They might make the mood in the place better, but it's so intangible that it's difficult to say that it would draw more people down. I'd certainly rather see the team have some more revenue as opposed to a continued Cheer Club, as I suspect that a .500+ team will draw more fans than the O-drum, beloved as it may be.
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#34416) #
Re. concessions -- do the Jays get those profits, or do they go to Skydome?
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:40 AM EDT (#34417) #
I can't provide a link or anything, but I can say that I know that the Jays don't own the concessions, and I believe that they are run by Skydome. In any event, common sense would tell you that there are costs associated with selling food that don't exist when selling tickets.
_Jim - TBG - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:43 AM EDT (#34418) #
http://www.torontobaseballguys.com
It really doesn't matter how hard your relievers throw, unless you use them to preserve leads, rather than mop up the latest drubbing at the hands of Yankees.

As for the tickets, I would let kids under 10 into the SkyDeck for $2, then really push the concessions and the merchandise - which the club should profit from. Easy access for your next generation of fans, and let the parents provide some extra revenue.

And <.shameless plug> if you guys want to continue this discussion of ticket prices in person, the Friday, Oct 1 game in the 100 level would be the perfect place for it. <./shameless plug>
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:43 AM EDT (#34419) #
the Star Pass certainly helps get more butts in the seats.

Does it, on the whole? I realize this has been debated here before, but I think promotions like that, and the $2 games make it like it isn't worth paying the full price to see a game. It seems like it devalues the product to me. As long as something seems special or hard-to-get, it has its own built-in market. Harold Ballard certainly understood that when he would give away un-sold seats at the Gardens in the 1980s, just so he could say the Leafs sold out every night.

As for the idea that the cheapie promos draw people to the game, whereby they might think "Hey, coming to a Blue Jay game could be fun!"? Well, this is a team that used to draw 4 million fans. Lots of people have been to the Dome when it WAS fun and full every night, and even with 30,000 fans there, they'll just look at the 20,000 empty seats (and almost completely empty skyboxes) and still think it isn't as fun as it used to be. I was at the "blackout" game against the Yankees, and despite the announced crowd of 46K, that's exactly what I was thinking...
_Rob - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:46 AM EDT (#34420) #
Re. concessions -- do the Jays get those profits, or do they go to Skydome?
I would imagine the baseball club sees very little of the profits from the 6 dollar beers and $7 pizza slices. Perhaps if they owned the stadium, things would be different...but we've all talked about that enough times.

UGH! I didn't realize that it wouldn't be on TV.
It's Gustavo Chacin's Major League debut! Against the MFY's! Damn those Devil Rays and their rainouts!

There's a faint glimmer of hope, though -- in the Star today, the daily listing says Jays-Yankees on RSO.
Has Sportsnet run any ads for it today? Would Wilner know if it's on TV? ;)
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:46 AM EDT (#34421) #
Tyler, you'll note that I've spent far more on tickets for other people this year than I have on concessions.

(I've wondered why the Cheer Club doesn't sit behind the plate, actually)

It's a drum thing: when it comes, we have to be away from fans in their paid seats, to minimize complaints. We chose 518 as a convenient meeting point that was away from the "crowd" in the upper deck, but still a great view.
_R Billie - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#34422) #
Chacin draws a very tough assignment for his first start. Welcome to the big leagues kid. I have a feeling he'll surprise. I doubt they'd give him this start if they didn't think he had the mentality for it. And the best way to evaluate a player is to throw them out there against the best.

League has had a day of rest after pitching 3 out of 4 days in the Eastern League championships. All of his appearances were multiple innings. I think the Jays will play it safe and give him at least one more day of rest with his major league debut coming tomorrow or the day after.
_Jacko - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 11:58 AM EDT (#34423) #

If someone can make a case to me beyond "I like seeing 81 games for really, really cheap" I'm open to hearing it, but from my perspective, it makes sense for the Jays to do away with the Star Pass. The people who buy it will spend at least 81$ anyway, and more if the team doesn't suck.

They are making lots of money off me.

(a) for various reasons, I haven't even made it to 9 games this year.

(b) when I do go, you can count on me having a beer or two, and maybe a slice of pizza as well

A better (and perhaps more cost effective inducement) would be to give out more freebies to grassroots fan clubs like the Cheer Club. NFH's band of merry men (and women) are one of my primary motivations for getting out to the game when I have the time.
_Moffatt - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 12:03 PM EDT (#34424) #
Does it, on the whole?

Absolutely. Wait to see what happens to attendance when they get rid of these promotions. Deadsville.

As long as something seems special or hard-to-get, it has its own built-in market.

Right. But that isn't going to happen for a long, long time. Jays have to win at least one World Series first. Going 120-40 would help as well.
_Dan - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 12:07 PM EDT (#34425) #
I had the star pass last year and it was great. I saw more games than I would have normally seen. Also the rewards that they gave last year allowed me to see all my games free this year. If only they brough back the star pass.....
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 12:14 PM EDT (#34426) #
Wait to see what happens to attendance when they get rid of these promotions. Deadsville.

I think that having $2 games probably takes attendance away from the non-$2 games, or at the very least makes them seem far less interesting by comparison.

If a non-fan goes to a $2 game, finds it fun because the crowd is so excited, then comes back a week later to a midweek game against KC, what's he/she going to think? I think they're just going to think that none of the other games are worth going to. Look at the Expos... they always draw a big crowd for opening day and the $5 games... and no crowds for any of the others.

But, I guess I'm "Absolutely" wrong. If the Skdome now isn't "Deadsville", I'd hate to see what that would be like.
_Moffatt - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 12:21 PM EDT (#34427) #
I think that having $2 games probably takes attendance away from the non-$2 games, or at the very least makes them seem far less interesting by comparison.

That could be a problem, but I guess the cynic in me asks "how less interested could fans be?"

Look at the Expos... they always draw a big crowd for opening day and the $5 games... and no crowds for any of the others.

You're right, that does happen. I think the Expos would draw even less fans if they didn't have those promotions, even at the dates where the promotions aren't occuring. Those promotions didn't kill baseball in Montreal.

If the Skdome now isn't "Deadsville", I'd hate to see what that would be like.

I'm probably going to get flamed by the Bauxite staff for this, but if the Jays don't improve their marketing and promotion and aren't in the hunt for a playoff spot next year, they'll be lucky to draw 1.5 million.

Attendance hasn't been too poor this season, since the Star Pass is greatly inflating numbers and last year's very good season helped sell a lot of tickets in the '03-'04 off-season. If the Jays don't have either of those things going for them, it's going to show up in next year's attendance figures.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 12:31 PM EDT (#34428) #
Is the Star Pass actually inflating numbers that much? I don't know that there are that many of them that have been sold-for some reason I think that sales number in the 100's. I'd agree that last season certainly helped the Jays sell tix this year, and that's going to be gone, but it's nothing that a solid 2005 campaign won't address. Regardless of that, it seems to me that it's pretty much conceded here that the Jays are better off from a revenue standpoint getting rid of the pass. I guess the one thing we've left out is the money that the Star throws in to be the title sponsor, but I can't see it being enough.

Essentially, attendance numbers are useless without knowing the $/seat number. I suspect that promotions like 2$ games and the Star Pass help the Jays towards the bottom of the league in this area.
_Paul D - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 12:33 PM EDT (#34429) #
Are there numbers anywhere on how many people own Star Passes?
_Moffatt - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 12:34 PM EDT (#34430) #
Is the Star Pass actually inflating numbers that much? I don't know that there are that many of them that have been sold-for some reason I think that sales number in the 100's.

Possibly. I'm not sure. That's a good point.

I figured they sold 1,000 of those. Depending on how they count "tickets sold", that could count as 81,000 extra tickets sold, which does inflate the numbers a little.

Regardless of that, it seems to me that it's pretty much conceded here that the Jays are better off from a revenue standpoint getting rid of the pass.

In the short term, absolutely. It's too low to be a revenue maximizing price level.

In the long term, I don't think that it is. Having more people in the Dome for any given game should improve future ticket sales, television revenue, etc. because the Dome sounds a whole lot better and signals to fans that it's a great place to watch a game.
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 12:38 PM EDT (#34431) #
Regardless of that, it seems to me that it's pretty much conceded here that the Jays are better off from a revenue standpoint getting rid of the pass.

I dunno, did you read my post? I certainly wouldn't concede that point.
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 12:40 PM EDT (#34432) #
Any idea how many Star Passes were sold? Wasn't the Star Pass cancelled partway through last off-season? Since there's hardly anyone in the 500 level on most nights, I doubt it was "greatly" inflating anything.

if the Jays don't improve their marketing and promotion and aren't in the hunt for a playoff spot next year, they'll be lucky to draw 1.5 million.

What, you don't think that letting your franchise's best hitter walk away without even making an attempt to sign him is a great marketing ploy? :-)

If the Blue Jays' problem was that the local economy was tanking, that companies and individuals didn't have money to spend on tickets, then I would think that price reductions would be the way to go to increase attendance.

This isn't Pittsburgh, though. That certainly is NOT the problem, *especially* with all the "extra" money people/companies will have with the Leafs not playing for at least half the season, and the Raptors in a real crisis mode.

What I think the Blue Jays clearly have to do is come up with a marketing campaign that emphasizes why the team is worth watching. (Something this year's campaign certainly doesn't do) The problem isn't that people aren't willing to spend $9... the problem is that people just don't think it's worth their time. Of all the things that people can do for entertainment, why should they go to a Blue Jays game? That's what the marketing dept. should be answering, and devaluing the product by offering bargain nights would seem to work in direct contrast to that message.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#34433) #
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they print your tickets when you show up at the window with the Star Pass? If so, I don't think that it would inflate attendance numbers at all, based on my knowledge of how MLB counts attendance.

As for helping the Jays maximize revenue in the long-term...I don't know. I did my undergrad degree in sport administration, and I'm firmly of the opinion that a winning product sells tickets, and damn little else, unless you're in a special market-yoo hoo Maple Leafs. I honestly believe that you could price every ticket in SkyDome at 1$ right now, and you'd see little impact on attendance-there just isn't interest in watching a team that's consistently out of it. As for the Star Pass increasing television revenue-come on. Wouldn't TV revenue be increased if all the diehards who couldn't afford tickets were at home watching the game on TV? Can you honestly tell me that you watch games on TV because of the atmosphere in the arena?
_Moffatt - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 12:45 PM EDT (#34434) #
What I think the Blue Jays clearly have to do is come up with a marketing campaign that emphasizes why the team is worth watching. (Something this year's campaign certainly doesn't do) The problem isn't that people aren't willing to spend $9... the problem is that people just don't think it's worth their time. Of all the things that people can do for entertainment, why should they go to a Blue Jays game? That's what the marketing dept. should be answering, and devaluing the product by offering bargain nights would seem to work in direct contrast to that message.

Agree with this 100%. You're right that it's not likely the financial cost that's turning people off. It's the opportunity cost of their time.

The problem is that solving a financial cost problem, is much, much easier. I don't really see how the Jays are going to work on fixing the latter problem. They haven't been able to so far, IMO.
_Moffatt - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 12:47 PM EDT (#34435) #
Can you honestly tell me that you watch games on TV because of the atmosphere in the arena?

Of course not.

Can you honestly tell me that the sounds of a program doesn't impact your decision on what to watch? People here bitch *constantly* about what sounds are and are not being heard at the Dome. So it's obviously impacting someone's decision.

Unless they're all the type who bitch and don't do anything about it. :)
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 12:51 PM EDT (#34436) #
Word on the problems with marketing, G.T. The Jays are atrocious in this department. I've been saying for a long time that they need to tie the players that they have now to the guys that everyone in Toronto knows-funny thing is that prior to this season, I specifically suggested a commercial where you have White going back to the wall on the triple play in '92 dissolve into Wells, or something like that. I saw that the Jays did just that in a video shown during the Alumni weekend. Nostalgia sells-ask the Leafs, and again, it wouldn't hurt the Jays to get across the message to their consumers that on any given night, you can come see the best 1B, CF and maybe P in Blue Jays history.

NFH, as for me not reading your post-I certainly did. You'd have to explain to me though where the Jays are going to lose revenue from you. Hopefully there isn't another bachelor party for the same guy, but other than that, it all looks like spending that's likely to be repeated to me. It doesn't make sense to not bring family for a game just because you're not getting 81/81, unless you intend to withhold some money from the Jays to punish them for this. Otherwise, I don't see what would really change much. Maybe if you explained how your spending would change, I could get a feel for your point...
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 12:53 PM EDT (#34437) #
Moffat, if it's a good game, I don't really care what the stadium sounds like. Let's be honest, everyone on this site is an obsessive to one degree or another about the Jays, and likely has a lot to bitch about. To suggest that the Star Pass would make a sufficient difference in terms of generating noise that it would draw enough audience that there would be a noticeable impact on advertising revenue for RSO-I just can't see that being correct.
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#34438) #
I figured they sold 1,000 of those. Depending on how they count "tickets sold", that could count as 81,000 extra tickets sold, which does inflate the numbers a little.

I don't think they count each Star Pass as 81 - they count only the times the people actually show up. Way back when, the AL attendance was for all tickets sold. Now, only normal season tickets count regardless of actual attendance - anything on top of that has to be someone who actually showed up.

At least that's my understanding.
_Moffatt - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 12:59 PM EDT (#34439) #
Moffat, if it's a good game, I don't really care what the stadium sounds like.

But what is a "good game"?

If I'm a casual fan, flipping through channels, and get to a baseball game and hear the crowd going nuts, I'm a lot more likely to stay on the channel and see what's going on, than I am if it sounds like a mauseoleum; some of those TV watchers are going to be Nielsen families.

Or put it differently: Why do many Canadians get interested in U.S. College football, when they have no intrinsic ties to any of the teams, and the play is worse than the CFL? A great deal of it has to do with how exciting the games appear on TV. That gets people hooked.
_Moffatt - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:02 PM EDT (#34440) #
Way back when, the AL attendance was for all tickets sold.

I believe it still is. Of course, how league calculate their attendance isn't something they like to advertise.

That being said, how many games has there been this year where they announce an attedance of 22,000 yet there are only about 8,000 in the stands? Judging by a few of the games I've been to, there must have been quite a few.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:03 PM EDT (#34441) #
Of course the whole problem with the argument that the Star Pass drives noise and excitement at SkyDome is that SkyDome happens to be bereft of both of those quantities unless Boston or New York happen to be in town, and the place is flooded with people paying full freight.
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:04 PM EDT (#34442) #
Maybe if you explained how your spending would change, I could get a feel for your point...

If I'm not attending 50 games (or 66, like last year), I am unlikely to bring anywhere near as many people with me to games. And I am more inclined to spend money on bringing people with me, because my ticket is already paid for.

It's the difference between Vanessa and I bringing a friend and walking up to the window and spending $10 instead of $30.

It really is a tipping point, especially since the Jays home broadcasts look so gorgeous on TV.
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:07 PM EDT (#34443) #
I have to concur with Moffatt (is that a first?). The ambient sounds you get from your TV do affect a viewer's interest in the sporting event. Perhaps miking the field better, so we get more of the sounds from the game, and making an effort to get mikes closer to the cheer club and other enthusiastic fans, is a good idea.

As an example of what other broadcasters do, miking players on the bench is a good idea. Most fans, hardcore and casual, would love to hear some of the conversations going on there. Of course it couldn't be done live because you'd have the potential for off-colour remarks, but you could certainly get a few interesting snippets every game for playback.

That's a TV issue, so it has nothing to do with the Jays (well, Rogers owns Sportsnet so there's incentive there to pursue something like this).
_Moffatt - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:08 PM EDT (#34444) #
Of course the whole problem with the argument that the Star Pass drives noise and excitement at SkyDome is that SkyDome happens to be bereft of both of those quantities unless Boston or New York happen to be in town

Have you watched a game on TV when the O-Drum is there?

I agree with you in part. That's why if the Jays bring the Star Pass back, they really need to promote it.

This isn't just about the Star Pass, though. It's about getting people into the 500 levels and interested in baseball. Promoting little league baseball and getting many of those kids to come to games is another way to get a little more excitement into the Dome.

It seems most (though not all of us) agree that the Dome can sound quiet both in TV and in person. If the Star Pass isn't in your solution bucket, what is?
_Moffatt - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:09 PM EDT (#34445) #
I have to concur with Moffatt (is that a first?).

Be careful. I hear it's addictive. ;)
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:09 PM EDT (#34446) #
I believe it still is. Of course, how league calculate their attendance isn't something they like to advertise.

No. I'm pretty sure they changed it so that the counting rules matched the NL - which didn't count individual no-shows.
_James W - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:13 PM EDT (#34447) #
Perhaps miking the field better, so we get more of the sounds from the game,

Having heard Eric Hinske cursing after too many strikeouts, or Carlos Delgado playing the field general on popups, I can safely say that Sportsnet has the field miked pretty well.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#34448) #
Season's Pass: $81
Concessions: $200
Hat: $40
Jersey: $30
Baby Jersey: $20
Tickets for my dad: $40
Tickets for our cousins: $20
Tickets for Vanessa's extended family: $200
Tickets for the bachelor party: $120

I'm a little confused here, so bear with me. You said that you brought your dad twice, yet you've got 40$ down for tickets-presumably you got the 9$ seats so as to take advantage of your Star Pass. Same thing goes with Vanessa's extended family-$200 for five tickets by my count. I don't get how that spending is tied to the Star Pass. In all fairness, I'd look at it like this, if I worked for the team and had to make this decision, in terms of guessing your future spending:

$200 of this guy's spending generates virtually nothing for us; concessions. Hat, jersey, baby jersey-can't reasonably say that they're tied to the Star Pass specifically. Bachelor party was a one time thing; don't count on it. Tickets for the family-I'd bet he'll get them anyway, although I'm apparently wrong in your case. Worst case, I'm out about $300. If the Jays get hot though, and are in contention-I'm willing to bet that most of those with Star passes will find a way to come up with 9 bucks most nights in September, and I'll make a killing then.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:20 PM EDT (#34449) #
As for what my solution is to the troubles at the 'Dome, a big part of the reason I decided not to pursue a career in sport is because I think that the vast majority of sport "marketing" is horseshit. At the end of the day, I honestly believe that a contending Jays team will put butts in the seat and fix the atmosphere better than anything else. Everything else is shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic. The problem with saying that the Star Pass makes a better atmosphere is that it demostrably has zero effect. Even the O Drum, loud as it is, doesn't do anything that hte Jays themselves can't do over the loudspeakers, with the exception of drumming while a guy is pitching I suppose.
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#34450) #
I'm thinking of putting mikes at second base and near the walls so we can hear the crunches when someone takes a player out at second or an outfielder crashes into the wall.

What I'm saying is that TV should get creative on the technical side - try new things out in an effort to create a soundscape that is appealing to the viewer. If done well, it will hold the viewer's attention better and possibly convince them to go down to the Dome more often.

This is one of the most important things I learned during my film studies: sound is exceptionally important in the cinema (and by extention, television). Because people's conscious attention is on the image, they usually aren't very aware of the effects the soundtrack has. Nevertheless, it's impact is far from insignificant.
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#34451) #
You're right, Tyler, I made no attempt to count how many people I've brought casually to games. The big events are much easier to remember. I can try, if you like. I'd put it at over 10, under 25.

My father's tickets and Vanessa's family's tickets both also took advantage of bonuses from last year, premiums for attending multiple games. $200 and $40 were the actual cash outlays in those cases, not the total value of the tickets, since that made more sense to me to count. In both cases, I earned those premiums by attending a lot of games with the Star Pass.

Yes, I agree, if I am the only person who uses his pass this way, then they won't lose much when looking at the big picture. However, being out $300 from a number of fans has got to be something to take into consideration.
_Moffatt - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#34452) #
I'm thinking of putting mikes at second base and near the walls so we can hear the crunches when someone takes a player out at second or an outfielder crashes into the wall.

Oh wow. That'd be absolutely incredible. Who wouldn't love to hear that?

sound is exceptionally important in the cinema (and by extention, television). Because people's conscious attention is on the image, they usually aren't very aware of the effects the soundtrack has. Nevertheless, it's impact is far from insignificant.

Agreed. Thanks for describing it far more eloquently than I can. :)
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#34453) #
And I keep forgetting to mention the viral aspect: you take people out to a ballgame and if they enjoy themselves they're more likely to come back.
_Ryan Day - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:30 PM EDT (#34454) #
Wasn't the pass cancelled, at least in part, in response to complaints from season ticket holders? ie. "I'm paying face value, and they're paying $1 a game?" iirc, it was cancelled midway through the last offseason, which at least suggests some sort of abrupt reason; it's not like they simply didn't bring it back.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:31 PM EDT (#34455) #
That's exactly my point NFH-I think you are unique in that you use your pass that way. For the average person, I think that they just use it for themselves and don't drop a lot of extra dough at the ballpark. Essentially what the Jays are doing by selling you and the rest of the super fans passes so cheap is locking in for a ridiculously low amount. They remove the risk that they'll be so bad that the fan comes to fewer than $81 worth of games, but eliminate the upside. At that price, there is no earthly way it is worth it to the team.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:36 PM EDT (#34456) #
As for the viral thing-Jays attendance has dropped for the past how many years in a row? It's not working.

Let's say that they lose $300 from 500 people, a number I believe to be high. They'd need to sell an extra 17K 9$ tickets to make that money up. Ask yourself if they'll sell that anyway if they're in contention. Of course they will. The next time that the Jays are in contention during Aug/Sept, they'll see a boost of 10K per game AT LEAST, I'd be willing to bet. Ask yourself again if this pass makes any sense for the Jays.
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#34457) #
Ryan, I believe that is correct: season's tickets to the upper deck cost about $600, and while you are guaranteed the same assigned seat and get freebies like jerseys and trips to Florida, the difference between $600 and $81 is enough that some people were pretty mad about it.

And all that said, $600 is still a great price for season's tickets, just not one that I can currently justify. The Blue Jays have by far the best cheap seats I've ever seen.

Back to the idea of a marketing campaign based on nostalgia: why not try to draw parallels between our developing team now and our developing team in the early '80s?
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:38 PM EDT (#34458) #
So why not do as NFH suggests and double the price - I'd still buy it at $162. A lot of people wouldn't and would settle for $9 game-to-game. I've also brought family to the game and paid full price for them. Without the pass, I wouldn't do that as often.
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:38 PM EDT (#34459) #
As for the viral thing-Jays attendance has dropped for the past how many years in a row? It's not working.

I thought attendance was up this year. Anyone got numbers?
_Jim Acker - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:38 PM EDT (#34460) #
To be optomistic about the Jays current situation, we only have to hear Faulds butcher this fine sport a few more times. Hopefully sportsnet opens up their purse strings and hires a real baseball broadcaster for '05.
_Moffatt - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:42 PM EDT (#34461) #
I thought attendance was up this year. Anyone got numbers?

With 3 games to go, the Jays are around 40,000 off of last year's attendance. Consider those games are against the Yankees, they'll have no problems beating it.
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:43 PM EDT (#34462) #
By the way, know who really hates the season's pass? Scalpers.

And I imagine if there were no pass next year that I'd be showing up during the second inning and buying a seat for two or three bucks from the gentlemen by the fountain a lot to stretch my ticket budget a bit further.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:48 PM EDT (#34463) #
I could be wrong, and maybe there is someone with ties to the Jays lurking who can confirm, but I don't think you got the jersey and trip to FLA if you spent $600 on a 500 level seat. I think you had to spend more like 2500$, although I could be wrong. Essentially, the extra $520 gets you a guaranteed seat. Ouch.

Attendance is indeed up .4% percent this year, my mistake. It will presumably rise again with the Yankees in town in a few weeks. Unfortunately for the Jays, it will no doubt be dropping again next year. I'd suggest that the reason it's up this year is season ticket sales that are above last year's levels.

Even if the Jays raised the price to $162, it still doesn't seem to make much sense financially to me. A) You're pissing off anyone who does buy season tickets in 500, B) You're locking in again, albeit a high enough level that you probably aren't going to lose as much with a late season push and C) you're devaluing your product. As NFH points out, 600 bucks is an absurdly cheap rate for MLB, as is 9$. Prices aren't keeping people away, bad baseball is.
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#34464) #
Let's say that they lose $300 from 500 people, a number I believe to be high. They'd need to sell an extra 17K 9$ tickets to make that money up. Ask yourself if they'll sell that anyway if they're in contention. Of course they will.

Yes, but will they get into contention by eliminating the pass?

And thinking about this, why not take both the pass money AND the extra 17k tickets sold? The Dome holds 52,000 people, after all.

The pass has to make some kind of sense for the Jays -- after all, they called me in December, at work, to get me to renew. They sweetened the pot, too -- opening day tickets were sent with the pass, so we wouldn't be turned away if there was a sellout. And they made the pass seats better -- not just row 10 and above, but anywhere in the upper deck.

Bauxite #2JBrumfeld (who was fan of the game two days after me, on September 18) reports that he was called last October, literally a couple of weeks after the season ended.

Why would they do all that if the pass was a total loss for them?
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 01:54 PM EDT (#34465) #
I think the season ticket holder complaints are the big issue.

I'd be happy to pay double and have the seats be worse -- if you walk up for season's pass now you'll get somewhere between 520 and 528, most likely 524 (behind home plate) or the section on either side of it -- I'd take 518 and past, like the Field Level Bases tickets.

Of course, this would require a couple of extra ushers and security guards.
_Rob - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:01 PM EDT (#34466) #
RE: Googling lyrics.

It's not like Thomas is the only one who can do that, after all. He doesn't have any special advantage over other Bauxites. I can Google the lyrics just as easy (and, in fact, I did search for the lyrics once when I forgot the name of the band).

It's not who knows the lyrics first, it's who posts them first.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:04 PM EDT (#34467) #
Is it really worth it to the Jays, to have extra security and ushers keeping the 1$ people segregated from the 9$ people? At some point, you just need to say, look this isn't really worth the hassle, and let the revenue go.
_Willy - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:06 PM EDT (#34468) #
To some extent attendance is a generational matter. I saw many hundreds of games from the late 70's to the early 90's, but each year the Jays went a little more NBA-ish with their incessant Jumbotron noise. I just don't need, or want, that anymore--and all of my friends my age have quit going to the Dome, too: and they ALL mention the noise levels (not the cheering noises, but those damned Jumbotron 'races' and so on). I went to ballgames to see a baseball game, but they insisted on pushing all this other crap at me. So much so that they eventually pushed me out. People noise is great; but Jumbotron and stadium-speaker noise isn't. If they want to get people like me back, they should try marketing baseball not some frantic 'spectacle'. Show Devo's catch, sure; show other great plays, some of Rios's throws from right and one of Jessie's. Show people why baseball itself is great to watch.
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:06 PM EDT (#34469) #
Tyler,

What do conetnding and the Star Pass have to do with one another? Part of the reason the Pass existed is that the Jays weren't in contention. They're not realistically expected to contend next year, so the practical issue at hand is whether or not some form of the Star Pass should be brought back. Once the Jays are contenders again, there will be no reason to have a Star Pass. If/when the Jays contend and attendance climbs over 2 million, you'll see ALL ticket prices rise.

You are conflating two issues - no one is disputing that winning is the ultimate cure to revenue woes. The question is, what can the Jays do in the meantime to try to keep the fan base they have.
_Rob - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:08 PM EDT (#34470) #
People here bitch *constantly* about what sounds are and are not being heard at the Dome. So it's obviously impacting someone's decision.

I am one of those who hates the noise between innings, but I wouldn't go out to more games if they improved that. I would attend the same number (4, 5) per year that I do no matter what the Dome is like.

I used to think that if I had a Star Pass, I would go to more games, but I'll gladly pay $9 to sit in section 528 again. Those were good seats. I think the Star Pass isn't really needed anymore, since there are good seats available for $9 anyway.

NFH, would you still go to 50 games if you had to pay nine bucks for each one? We're talking $450 vs $81, I know, but would you?
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#34471) #
I thought attendance was up this year. Anyone got numbers?

It's almost dead level with last year - a little ahead, but we've got the Yankees finishing up.

1,750,681 through 78 dates. If we get 100,000 for the Yankees series (which seems likely) we'll get to 1.85 million, an increase of roughly 50,000 over last year's 1,799,458.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:13 PM EDT (#34472) #
Robert, I'm not in any way conflating the two issues. What I'm saying is that at $81, the Star pass isn't worth the trouble to the Jays that it takes to operate the program, and hurts their revenue now.

You talk about using the Star Pass to maintain the fan base-the Star Pass isn't being bought by casual fans who might hit the odd game if the team is good, it's being bought by hardcore fans, who'd more than likely pay more money to see games over the course of the season than $81. They aren't going to stop being fans because they're not able to afford to go to as many games in a season.

The argument about maintaining a fan base maybe has some more relevance in terms of keeping single game prices down, and having financially viable packs for a couple of games, but anyone considering a full season is probably a huuuuge fan of the game, and can have more revenue taken out of him or her than a mere $81, even if the team sucks. If the team is good-they can definitely have more revenue wrung out of them than $81. It's simple revenue maximization.
_Jobu - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:15 PM EDT (#34473) #
I can't understand why the season ticket holders complained so much. Mostly because nothing is stopping them from getting the starpass. The way I see it they either want their season ticket perks (garunteed seats, first dibs on playoff tickets, season ticket holder meet and greats, not waiting in line) and thus refuse to pay just the 81 bucks or they just want to ruin our good time because they can afford 600 season tickets and I most certainly can not. By the way, the Starpass is what turned me into the uberfan I am today by getting me out to so many games just because I could. I felt such a connection to the team and cheer club. Sitting at home at 5pm and debating wether to drive through downtown traffic for an hour to see the Jays take on the Devil Rays would be alot less enticing for me without the beautiful starpass in my wallet, 9 dollar tickets or not. And it also helped me convince my loser friends to come to many a game just like NFH.
_Ryan Lind - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:16 PM EDT (#34474) #
Gustavo Chacin's debut isn't on TV?? Well that's certainly a bummer.

I would think they'd have every game against the Yankees on TV.
_James W - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:22 PM EDT (#34475) #
Blame Hurricane Frances. TSN planned on showing all three games, Tuesday through Thursday. Except MLB had to change the series to Monday-Wednesday to accomodate a Thursday game between TB and NYY. So either TSN doesn't want to go to New York early to do Monday's game, or they don't want to bother pre-empting their Monday night wrestling to show the game tonight.
_Rob - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:22 PM EDT (#34476) #
Ryan:

This series was supposed to go Tue-Wed-Thu, but the NY-TB rainout or something got moved to Thursday, thus making the Jays-Yanks Mon-Tue-Wed. So, everyone thought Monday would be an off-day, and since RSN isn't doing any of the games, they won't fly a crew down there.

TSN or RSN-Ontario might show the YES feed tonight, though. I would really like that; it would make up for not showing the Randy Johnson game.

Was Thursday's game going to be televised?
_rodent - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:23 PM EDT (#34477) #
All 100 level outfield seats should be reserved at no charge for anyone 14 and under. Each kid may be accompanied by one person over 14 who gets in for half price. All seats must be ticketed and picked up on game day. If we fill the lower 100s, lets open up the outfield 500s. Is there any reason Jays' managment can't do something that's at least a break-even, and encourages new interest in a sport which fades daily for families in the GTA whose free or low-cost Community Rec Centre baseball programs have been wiped out or severely reduced by blah, blah, blah..?
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:29 PM EDT (#34478) #
The Pass and other efforts to get fans to attend more often are just a small piece of the puzzle. I certainly don't think they've decreased revenue - I predict that just about anyone you'd talk to who bought a Pass this year would say they won't spend more money on tickets next year without it.

It may be that $81 is too cheap - they have to price it such that it's affordable, but appeals to fans who are willing to come to 50-60 games a year, but can't if they have to pay $9 each time (like me).

That's the target market - nobody else is affected. Baseball tickets are never going to be scarce as long as the Jays play in Skydome because the Jays are never going to get close to 4 million fans - that line of reasoning is non-applicable here.

Bottom line is that you want people to come out and have fun, occasionally bring their friends or attend as a group. The pass makes it a little easier to do that without spending a lot of money.

If the casual fan has fun at the game, they're more likely to come back. Absent a team that is a lock to win 90+ games, that's the way a major league baseball team survives. It's a fight for the entertainment dollar - fan by fan. It would be folly to think that that's not important.
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:32 PM EDT (#34479) #
I can't understand why the season ticket holders complained so much. Mostly because nothing is stopping them from getting the starpass

I think the last thing the Jays would want is to have their "regular" STHes start buying StarPasses. How long was the StarPass available? One+ year? My guess is that some did want to switch to the StarPass, the club realized the big potential downside of the StarPass, and discontinued it.

As it sounds, it seems that anyone who paid $650 for a season ticket was treated like a chump, as long as the StarPass was available. Why would anyone ever buy a $700 ticket? If you limited the number of Passes available, I think you'd still have pissed-off STHs. You'd have to make sure the StarPass didn't let fans sit amongst the other folks.

Speaking from personal experience, I was a STH for the inaugural season of the Ottawa Rebel lacrosse team. It bothered me to no end to see the team start having 2-for-1 specials, and giving away boatloads of the tickets I paid full price for. I felt like I was being disrespected, and that was the main reason I didn't renew. (I figured I'd buy a few single-game tickets, but ended up never going to another game)
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:32 PM EDT (#34480) #
NFH, would you still go to 50 games if you had to pay nine bucks for each one? We're talking $450 vs $81, I know, but would you?

Probably not. If nothing else, the loss of the pass will eliminate "casual" game attendance for me -- I'll pick up a flex pack or something, and go to those specific games, instead of deciding after work whether or not I feel like going to a baseball game right this minute.

That has really been the ultimate joy of the pass: we lose nothing, really, if we don't go, if something else comes up, but we can go at the drop of a hat. Heck, I've come halfway through to a bunch of games because I was working late or had to do something around the house Sunday morning.
_Ryan Lind - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:34 PM EDT (#34481) #
Damn, yeah, I hope the YES feed gets shown somewhere.

Well, not on RSN-Ontario though, since I don't get that channel.
_Ryan Day - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#34482) #
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=kruk/040917
As awful as his last piece was, John Kruk has an interesting column today, touching on both the Texas bullpen brawl and the '94 strike. COMN.

This, IMO, is what you should use player commentary for. They're often useless for analysis, since they have a hard time being objective about things. But here, you take a public event and add a personal touch to it: "This was what happened to me..." Not that he's Hemmingway, but it's worth a read.
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#34483) #
Baseball tickets are never going to be scarce as long as the Jays play in Skydome because the Jays are never going to get close to 4 million fans - that line of reasoning is non-applicable here

The argument isn't that giveaways make the tickets scarce.

It's that selling tickets for $2 devalues the product and makes it seem EVEN MORE like it's not worth someone's time to go to a game.

There are limits to this line of reasoning, but if a consumer sees two similar products, one priced several times higher than the other, the consumer is going to assume that the more expensive one is better.

This would apply all the more when it comes to entertainment, where it's mostly about doing the "cool" thing... in the early 90s, most people weren't going to Blue Jay games because they loved the game, they were there because it was the place to be.

It's like when a club makes sure there's a line outside the door even if it's half-empty inside, so passersby will think "Gee, if people are waiting to get in, it must be a good place". That kind of place attracts a better crowd than one with a bouncer outside begging people to come in...
Mike Green - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:44 PM EDT (#34484) #
Not that he's Hemmingway, but it's worth a read.

Now there's an understatement.

If the game tonight isn't televised, we'll have to make do with the first picture of Gustavo in his Toronto uniform. You'll find it in the minor league update thread.
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:49 PM EDT (#34485) #
From that Kruk article:

I remember when I signed a three-year deal in 1991, and everyone thought I didn't get enough money. Believe me, they weren't concerened about my future. They were mad because I was lowering the bar and messing things up for the other first basemen who were up for new contracts.

Well, I was playing where I wanted to play. I didn't care if I could have gone somewhere else for an extra million over a few years.

Sorry, Mark Grace and Jeff Bagwell. Hope you aren't starving today because of me.


I really liked that part.
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#34486) #
There are limits to this line of reasoning, but if a consumer sees two similar products, one priced several times higher than the other, the consumer is going to assume that the more expensive one is better

I don't agree. The educated consumer is likely to think that the one several times higher is overpriced.

Imagine there were very few hard core Leafs fans in the city. Would they charge as much money for tickets? No. Would they be viewed as cool because the prices are high? No. They can charge as much as they do because there are so many more rabid Leafs fans in the area than seats in the arena, that what they are doing is selling tickets to the wealthier part of that fan base - the poor ones go a couple time a year and are content to watch on TV the rest of the time.

Bceause of the size of the Skydome and the number of dedicated Jays fans, that equation is reversed. You make it sound like all the Jays have to do is raise prices 15% and suddenly they are cooler. That's absurd.

In 1987 the Jays were "cool" and I could get a ticket for any game at Dominion for $2.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:52 PM EDT (#34487) #
The Pass and other efforts to get fans to attend more often are just a small piece of the puzzle. I certainly don't think they've decreased revenue - I predict that just about anyone you'd talk to who bought a Pass this year would say they won't spend more money on tickets next year without it.

Of course they won't say that they'll spend more next year without it. They're answering that question in a vacuum. If/when the Jays are competitive, many of these same people who say that they won't spend more than $81 will go over that in order to catch some games down the stretch. The real question is, are there many who will spend less on tickets? I doubt it-if you're willing to plunk down 81$, on some level, you're a serious baseball fan.

It may be that $81 is too cheap - they have to price it such that it's affordable, but appeals to fans who are willing to come to 50-60 games a year, but can't if they have to pay $9 each time (like me).

I'd eat at Mr. Greek every night if it was 2 dollars, but I can't afford to go there every night at 15 dollars. It's not worth their time to have me at 2 bucks a night-I would argue that the same principle applies with the Jays-the dollars lost are minimal with the potential for big return. For some reason the term that comes to mind is leveraging, although that may not be the appropriate term.

That's the target market - nobody else is affected. Baseball tickets are never going to be scarce as long as the Jays play in Skydome because the Jays are never going to get close to 4 million fans - that line of reasoning is non-applicable here.

Agreed, baseball tickets aren't going to be scarce. That said, you're cannabalizing your other ticket holders up there-there isn't really much of an incentive to buy the 600 package, which people are willing to do, if you can get the same thing for 81$, minus the odd bell and whistle. Those people are affected, which ultimately affects the Jays revenue.

Bottom line is that you want people to come out and have fun, occasionally bring their friends or attend as a group. The pass makes it a little easier to do that without spending a lot of money.

Actually, the bottom line is maximizing revenue. Letting your most smitten customers lock in at 1 dollar a game is not conducive to that goal.

If the casual fan has fun at the game, they're more likely to come back. Absent a team that is a lock to win 90+ games, that's the way a major league baseball team survives. It's a fight for the entertainment dollar - fan by fan. It would be folly to think that that's not important.

When the losses from cutting it are so insubstantial, and the potential for reward for so large, it'd be folly to continue doing it. I know the people here like to think of themselves as important to the team, but that one guy who dropped 8K on some half decent seats this year after a promising season last year is worth 100 of you to the Jays. You can say that it's cynical, but the Jays figure you'll show up if the team's good, and if the team sucks, you won't, and they won't notice much in the way of lost revenue. Smart money says screw the star pass.
_Blue in SK - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#34488) #
So working in the cable industry, I put in an email to our Sportsnet account exec inquiring about the game tonight and unfortunately this is his response,

"Thank you for your recent email. We certainly appreciate your interest in our network. Unfortunately, we were not able to pick up the rights for the Blue Jay/Yankee game tonight. Our apologies for any inconvenience that this may cause."

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

However, I can now predict with certainty that Chacin will take a 2 hitter, 10K game into the 8th and that Brandon League will have a 1-2-3 ninth (with 2 puch outs) for his ML first save.

I wonder if it being televised on Extra Innings?
Gerry - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#34489) #
Tonights game was rescheduled last week to allow the Yankees to play Tampa on Thursday so I can see why Sportsnet could not get a crew together for it. The game will be shown on Extra Innings so I don't know why Sportnet cannot pick up the YES network feed.

Maybe there is a limit on the number of games they are carrying or maybe TSN had the original rights to Thursdays game.
Gerry - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#34490) #
Some digging shows that TSN are televising the Yankee games this week so TSN probably has the rights to tonights game.

TSN are not showing the game tonight, WWE RAW is on, I assume the semi-naked ladies and steroid fueled gents achive higher ratings than the Jays. TSN are now showing a US collge football game on Thursday.
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:05 PM EDT (#34491) #
The educated consumer is likely to think that the one several times higher is overpriced.

First, most consumers aren't educated. But even the educated ones will wonder how one could be so cheap. A truly educated one will think of the supply-and-demand implications, and think that the cheaper one is just the one that nobody wants.

You make it sound like all the Jays have to do is raise prices 15% and suddenly they are cooler. That's absurd

Um, nice strawman. Textbook, actually. I see you're experienced at it. It obviously does not work the other way.

Simple question -- if someone offers you a really cheap price on something, aren't you going to wonder why they're doing so? Why they can't get more from someone else?

I imagine most people's first reaction to hearing about things like the StarPass or $2 tickets is something like "Wow, they must be desperate! They have to practically beg people to go!". That certainly was my reaction. If we agree that the Jays' problem is that they have to make the games appealing to the casual fan, I can't see how that does anything other than make the games look like they're not worth the time.

It's like the people I saw last week on Bloor giving free passes to festival-related movie screenings. I didn't see anyone take one, because they likely assumed that, because it was free, it probably wasn't worth the time to go.
_Rob - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:06 PM EDT (#34492) #
What's on TSN tonight at 7?

7:00 PM IN THIS CORNER with Russ Anber
7:30 PM NFL Monday Night Countdown
9:00 PM WWE Raw


A boxing show (I guess) that I've never heard of.
A useless football pregame show (why show this and not the game?).
Wrestling.

Yeah, I'd rather watch Chacin pitch.
_Ryan Lind - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:13 PM EDT (#34493) #
So, what's Sportsnet showing at 7:00ET? I know they don't have a crew or whatever, but if all they're going to show is "You gotta see this!" or whatever, then I don't see why they can't pick up the feed elsewhere.

So yeah, what are they showing that's so important? I'd check for myself if the sportsnet.ca website wasn't such a pile of trash.
_Ryan Lind - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:15 PM EDT (#34494) #
Er, nevermidn, found out for myself.

Sportsnet Ontario and East are showing Baltimore @ Boston.

I get "Sunday Night Fights," "This week in baseball" and Jzone. Wonderful.
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:17 PM EDT (#34495) #
Well, since TSN technically own the rights to this game, unless they sell them to someone else it'll be TSN or nothing.
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:18 PM EDT (#34496) #
In 1987 the Jays were "cool" and I could get a ticket for any game at Dominion for $2.

Oh yeah, this. Wasn't this for a $4 seat? Do you really not see the difference between offering a 90% discount and a 50% one? Especially when the latter was obviously being aided by an association with another company?

2-for-1 deals do not reek of desperation like letting everyone in for $2 does -- just look at the popularity of "Entertainment books"... does anyone really pay full price to go to Canada's Wonderland? Many people expect some sort of deal when going out. They don't expect to be entertained for practically nothing.
_Ryan Lind - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:22 PM EDT (#34497) #
Hmm, I see what you're saying, NFH. Well, I know Baseball has pre-empted RAW before (I used to watch wrestling,) so maybe it will again.
_Rob - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:25 PM EDT (#34498) #
Sportsnet West tonight:

7:00 p.m. ET Drop In
7:30 p.m. ET This Week In Baseball
8:00 p.m. ET JZone
8:30 p.m. ET Sportsnetnews
9:00 p.m. ET Beyond the Glory: Anna Kournikova


Poor, poor Albertans/Saskatchewanites/Manitobans.

What's "Drop In"?
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#34499) #
Baseball has pre-empted RAW before (I used to watch wrestling,) so maybe it will again.

I'd say there's no chance. Even though wrestling viewership is way off in the US, it's still pretty high in Canada, for whatever reason. Did a "meaningless" regular-season baseball game really ever pre-empt RAW? And why is RAW capitalized, if it's not an acronym?

Sorry, enough posting today for me... :)
_Ryan Lind - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:30 PM EDT (#34500) #
I dunno. I didn't really pay much attention to baseball back when I watched wrestling...but they were definitely Jays games, so I would say, yes, meaningless games have pre-empted RAW before.

I'm sure RAW does stand for something though...REally Awful Wrestling, maybe? That would sure fit.
_Ryan - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:31 PM EDT (#34501) #
Because obviously capitalizing things make them cooler. Like you're yelling them, y'know it's like "In your face!", and really hip with the kids.

RAW or Raw? No contest.
_Ryan - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#34502) #
Plus I heard that bold and italics are just too expensive.
_David Paul - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#34503) #
Well, since TSN technically own the rights to this game, unless they sell them to someone else it'll be TSN or nothing.

Thanks for pointing that out. I had e-mailed Sportsnet hoping to add my name to the thousands of fans pleading for them to show the Yankee feed and they responded that they couldn't pick up the rights to the game.
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#34504) #
If Mr. Greek had 50,000 seats available and the cost to them of your meal was less than $2, then I'm sure they'd like to have you at $2.
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#34505) #
Because obviously capitalizing things make them cooler. Like you're yelling them, y'know it's like "In your face!", and really hip with the kids.

Do capitals make things more extreme? I mean, EXTREME? Or X-TREME!!!

You know a word has totally passed it's days of being cool when Zest releases Extreme Soap.
_Rob - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:45 PM EDT (#34506) #
You know a word has totally passed it's days of being cool when Zest releases Extreme Soap.

"Tonight, on Extreme Makeover: Soap Edition!"
_Ryan Lind - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:47 PM EDT (#34507) #
It's also cool to misspell things for some reason.

X-tReeM!!
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:47 PM EDT (#34508) #
Whenever I have friends over I make them watch the Xtreme Sports Network for a couple of minutes so they can see the little station identification thingy: a bad speedmetal guitar solo followed by an electronically lowered Monster Truck voice bellowing "EXTREEEEEEME!"

First time I heard it I laughed until I cried.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:47 PM EDT (#34509) #
If Mr. Greek had 50,000 seats available and the cost to them of your meal was less than $2, then I'm sure they'd like to have you at $2.

Not if some of their customers, who were paying 15$, were pissed off about it. Not if I'd spend 2$ only up to an annual total of 15$, which I'd spend there anyway. There is no incentive for them to do it, just as there is no incentive for the Jays to offer teh StarPass, improved TV ratings, viral marketing campaigns, improved atmosphere in the 'Dome aside.
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#34511) #
Simple question -- if someone offers you a really cheap price on something, aren't you going to wonder why they're doing so? Why they can't get more from someone else?

No. If someone has a half-price sale on some product, I'm not going to be suspicious - I'm going to be glad that I'm saving money.

An educated consumer evaluates the value of the product and compares it to the price - a low price is a positive not a negative.

In the case of the Jays, it's relatively easy to understand why they offer $9 tickets - they want people to come to their games and pricing them at $9 instead of $18 helps them do that.

The team has to pick a price point that is low enough to attact people and high enough to get sufficient revenue on each ticket. Maybe having people pay $162 up front for anywhere from 1 to 81 games attended is the right price, maybe it isn't. Maybe the solution is to drop the price of the 500 level season ticket option, which works out to $7.40 a game, hardly a savings over a regular $9 ticket and worth it only if you attend 67 or more games. There's no way I would commit that much money for such a paltry savings unless it came with substantial perks.

Why not make the Star pass cost $162 and the "regular" season tickets about $400. Aside from the perks, there is another important difference between the two: the regular season tickets are transferable - you can buy them with a group of friends, sell them if you don't need them in advance, give them away.

I don't know if the Star Pass makes sense, but it does get more people in the seats than wouldn otherwise be there - that I'm relatively sure of. If they advertised it properly, I'm pretty sure they could sell a couple thousand of them if they wanted to. They kind of kept it quiet, probably because of the complaints from the regular season holders.
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 04:05 PM EDT (#34512) #
JKCL

You're talking about field level seats - the ones that cost $40+ a game. We're talking about the cheap seats.

Let's just be clear that "full price" in this case is $9 - I doubt your corporate friends are trying to pass those tickets off to their clients.
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#34513) #
And JKCL, let me be the first opportunistic vulture to say that I'll take any tickets you can't get rid of, no matter how last minute it is. ;)
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#34514) #
If someone has a half-price sale on some product, I'm not going to be suspicious - I'm going to be glad that I'm saving money

But the $2 games aren't the equivelant of a half-price sale, it's over 90% off most tickets.

Sounds like a going-out-of-business sale to me.
_Ryan Day - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#34515) #
Position A: Simple question -- if someone offers you a really cheap price on something, aren't you going to wonder why they're doing so? Why they can't get more from someone else?

Position B: No. If someone has a half-price sale on some product, I'm not going to be suspicious - I'm going to be glad that I'm saving money.

I think it depends largely on what that product is. If I see a "SuperRadioDude" brand stereo system for $200, I'm going to be suspicious - I don't know what the brand means.

But if I see a Sony system for $200, I'm going to jump on it. Yes, I'll be reluctant if some guy is selling it out of a van, but otherwise that's a great deal.

The Jays Season Pass is closer to the latter than the former. Most people know what they're going to get out of a Blue Jays game. I might wonder what the seats are like - are they behind a post, or at very top of the stadium? - but after a few simple questions, the value of the deal becomes clear: I can see 81 Blue Jays games for $81. That's a good deal.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 04:14 PM EDT (#34516) #
G.T.-this is nuts. Apparently logic and reason rule here at all times, unless you're messing with the inherent right of the people to watch games for a dollar per, in which case logic that would make Joe Morgan shake his head comes into vogue.
_DGriebeling - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#34517) #
NFH, perhaps my StarPass instructions lead me in the wrong direction, but I was under the impression that you could only pick up your tickets the day of the game, and no less than 45 mins before gametime... can you really pick them up at anytime, or did you already have them when you decided, after working late, to go to a game?

If you can indeed pick them up anytime (even during the first inning or so), then I had so many wasted opportunities this season, that I think I may cry.
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#34518) #
The Star pass isn't $2 a game. It could be anywhere from $1 to $81 dollars a game depending on how many games the person attends. If the person in question attends 10 games, it's $8.10 per game - not 90% off. People are making a financial commitment in advance that they don't make when they buy single tickets.

It is not comparable to purchasing single tickets, such that you can assign a "dollar per game" value.

It sounds like the only problem is that the people paying 600+ for season tickets up there are complaining (and I think rightly so). The easiest solution to that problem is to get rid of the Star Pass, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is the best one.

One of two things are true:

1) These people are getting ripped off because they are paying a large amount of money up front for miniscule savings as compared to buying single tickets; or

2) They are receiving significant advantages that the purchasers of single $9 tickets do not get.

If 1) is true then they are getting ripped off even if the Star Pass doesn't exist; if 2) is true then the Star Pass is not at all comparable to what they have purchased.

You know what I would have done if I had had these $650 dollar season tickets or whatever they cost in 2003? I would have cancelled them and bought a Star Pass.
_Jobu - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#34519) #
Yeah, who are these people refusing to take field level tickets because they're worthless. Send some of those my way! I'd punch one of my loser friends in the face to get some field level seats. (as a side not, we need to get the cheer club out in full force for the yankee games. Its been so long since I screamed "PUNCH HIM IN THE FACE!" or cheered "WE LIKE BASE-BALL")
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 04:37 PM EDT (#34520) #
The Star pass isn't $2 a game

I was speaking generally about the cut-rate-ticket approach. One strategy was the $2/ticket game promotions. Those, I think, are a bad idea. I've already said enough about my reasons for feeling that way.

You know what I would have done if I had had these $650 dollar season tickets or whatever they cost in 2003? I would have cancelled them and bought a Star Pass.

Right. As I said, I suspect people did start doing that, the club realized the impact on the bottom line if they did, and they cancelled the program. How long would it be before the lower-bowl STHes started complaining about how much cheaper upper-bowl tickets cost? Especially if it had the desired effect of filling the upper bowl, and making it a fun place to sit.

Remember, those seats also used to be $1600 season tickets, too... the same price as the 100-level outfield seats. Corporate types certainly did once "pass them off" to their clients. I don't see why people like JKCL wouldn't just buy those seats instead.

G.T.-this is nuts

Okay, at least I'm not the only one who thinks so. :)
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#34521) #
The season tickets in the 500 level are 645 bucks for the year including taxes, I figure it's 800 a season with the taxes to buy an individual ticket to every one of those games, so it's a not insubstantial savings. Of course compared to a dollar a game, it probably does seem like a lot, even with the "perks".

That's all fine and well that you would have cancelled your 500 level tickets and bought a Star Pass, but it YET AGAIN illustrates what I've been saying all day in relation to the cost to the team of these Star Passes-I guarantee that there are some people who went from a season ticket to a Star Pass.
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 04:51 PM EDT (#34522) #
You don't think there is a difference between sitting in the 500 level and sitting in a good field level seat? Have you ever been at Skydome?
_Magpie - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 04:59 PM EDT (#34523) #
Bit of a hijack, just a quote I found interesting...

I'm aggressive with my changeup. I've always found it ironic that baseball drafts hitters who can hit a fastball -- and pitchers that can throw one. Successful pitching depends upon upsetting the hitter's timing. It's harder to do that when you're throwing what he hits best

That's from Carlos Delgado's cousin (also known as Jamie Moyer. Delgado's really going to miss him if he retires. 7 HR in 54 AB, .444)
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#34524) #
Tyler,

That is insubstantial, because some of those tickets are not going to be used. You might end up paying more per game attended if you buy season tickets in the 500s than if you go game by game at $9. Plus you have to outlay the cash in advance, which means you lose interest earnings on that money.
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#34525) #
If you can indeed pick them up anytime (even during the first inning or so), then I had so many wasted opportunities this season, that I think I may cry.

You can pick up your tickets with your pass any time during the day of the game while the box office is open. Last year I showed up at a game in the 8th inning and got my ticket.

We should have had this conversation in May!
Coach - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#34526) #
Is there any reason Jays' managment can't do something that's at least a break-even, and encourages new interest in a sport which fades daily for families in the GTA...

No reason that I can see, but I usually leave the heavy math to others. Marketing baseball, especially in this city, should be about baseball. The more the Jays support local house leagues, introduce the game to thousands of downtown sports fans who currently prefer soccer (by getting their kids involved) and bring in new families for their first SkyDome visit, the more repeat business they will get.

Give each kid who signs up for recreational ball four free 500-level tickets for a game in April or May. Issue more freebies for every volunteer: coach, assistant coach, scorekeeper, grounds crew, league administrators, recreation committee members. Pack the house as often as possible early in the season. Use the Jumbotron for quick tips and to explain rules. Let your sponsors present Mike Barnett talking about hitting while Vernon Wells takes his cuts in the cage, or Butter's comments while O-Dog does some infield drills. Teach people about the pivot, the crow hop and the secondary lead, things they don't know how to appreciate and will never learn from sound bites and highlight reels.

A minimum of promotion would generate considerable goodwill for the Jays and their corporate sponsor(s) while increasing minor baseball enrollment in the city dramatically before it disappears entirely. That would be a much better deal for everyone than the $81 pass; worthwhile for the Star to get involved.

If the $1 seats are gone, what about avid, every-day fans who can't afford $650? Let them yell and sing for their tickets, a tradition dating back to McGreevey's Royal Rooters in the very first World Series. Beginning in 2005, the Cheer Club should have reserved seats just like the old Dodger Sym-Phony did, in Section 8 of Ebbets Field. Give Aaron, the O-Drum and the faithful the first two rows of 518 every night and free tickets for non-sellouts. I'm sure dozens of Bauxites will be happy to pay the full $9 freight for the Yankees, Red Sox, Opening Day and other "premium" games.

The best possible marketing would be Jays TV, a digital cable channel along the lines of what the Leafs and Raptors have. That's another place to run instructional videos and explain the game to new fans, while giving seamheads like us a fix in the offseason. Replays of classic games, extensive spring training coverage, longer-than-usual interviews with players, coaches and other personnel, phone-in shows -- the possibilities are endless.

It seems pretty simple: until a contending team gets the "buzz" back among non-fans, create as many new fans as possible. If you can do that while being a responsible corporate citizen and generous to children, so much the better.
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:16 PM EDT (#34527) #
You don't think there is a difference between sitting in the 500 level and sitting in a good field level seat? Have you ever been at Skydome?

Yes I have been to Skydome many times, thanks for asking. Should I show you my World Series ticket stubs? I don't live in Toronto anymore, but when I did, the 500-level seats around home plate cost the same as the 100-level outfield seats. (Or the 200-level outfield seats... one was cheaper than the other, and I think it was the former).

Obviously, the only reason they don't do that anymore is that it'd take a lot more game staff/security to keep people from buying cheap 500-level seats and moving to the better ones.

IMHO, the 100-level outfield seats are pretty crappy -- you're too far away from the plate to really see anything related to the pitch, you're too low to glean much about where fielders are positioned, and you can't even see the Jumbotron without cranking your body around 90 degrees. I MUCH prefer the upper bowl seats behind the plate, where you can actually see what's going on.

IIRC, it was often the 100-level OF seats that would be the last to sell out, especially the ones close to CF, where you can't even see the Jumbotron.

(And this isn't just nostalgia -- I saw the Mussina/Tom Cheek game from the 500-level, then the Harden game from behind the A's bullpen the next weekend. There's no way, to me, that the bullpen seats are worth anywhere near 3x the price)

I'm glad that's all you found worthy to comment on, though.
_Jim - TBG - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#34528) #
http://www.torontobaseballguys.com
Couldn't agree more ,Coach. Every year, our ball team hits the dome as an end of season treat, and there are usually kids, 10-11 years old who have never been before. Get those kids through the turnstiles a few times and it's not hard to create fans for life.

Don't market down to them either. Kids love to be authorities, as anyone who knows a child who was into Pokemon can attest. Show them a few pointers on the Jumbotron, or how to score a play, and they'll talk your ear off about it, and probably want to learn more.
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#34529) #
Use the Jumbotron for quick tips and to explain rules. Let your sponsors present Mike Barnett talking about hitting while Vernon Wells takes his cuts in the cage, or Butter's comments while O-Dog does some infield drills. Teach people about the pivot, the crow hop and the secondary lead, things they don't know how to appreciate and will never learn from sound bites and highlight reels.

I was daydreaming about some kind of promotion that would single out some 'thing' that a specific Jay does better than anybody, something the average fan wouldn't see without it being pointed out. Make a bunch of these and play 'em, and suddenly you have people cheering good plays that they wouldn't otherwise have noticed.

And I appreciate it every time that Coach suggests that people give me free tickets for being loud. ;)
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#34530) #
I'll add that I suspect that one main reason most figure the 500-level seats are poor quality, compared to the 100-level OF seats is that they're so much cheaper. Which, of course, goes back to the idea that price influences the consumer's perception of quality... Cheap=Poor. Thanks for illustrating the point perfectly.
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#34531) #
I'll add that I suspect that one main reason most figure the 500-level seats are poor quality, compared to the 100-level OF seats is that they're so much cheaper. Which, of course, goes back to the idea that price influences the consumer's perception of quality... Cheap=Poor. Thanks for illustrating the point perfectly.
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#34532) #
JKCL was talking about the expensive field level seats. There's no way those are equivalent to an upper deck seat.
_Tyler - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#34533) #
I couldn't agree more about the in-stadium atmosphere. I haven't played the game as some people here have, and as a result, don't always pick up the little things. I love the opportunity to watch teh game with people who know what they're talking about and looking for. I've often said that the Jays need to realize that they're selling baseball and not generic baseball flavoured entertainment, as it sometimes seems they are.
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#34534) #
IMHO, the 100-level outfield seats are pretty crappy -- you're too far away from the plate to really see anything related to the pitch, you're too low to glean much about where fielders are positioned, and you can't even see the Jumbotron without cranking your body around 90 degrees. I MUCH prefer the upper bowl seats behind the plate, where you can actually see what's going on.

While I don't mind the Field Level Bases seats, I sat in the worst of 'em once, at the corner, and those I would never sit in again. I love the view from the upper deck. That said, I quite enjoy the seats right behind the bullpen. If I were getting season's tickets, I'd take 518 over 130C in a heartbeat.
_Ryan Lind - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:25 PM EDT (#34535) #
Having a "Jays TV" is an excellent idea. Though, I doubt it would be available to those of us not living in Ontario. If it was available, I'd certainly pay for it.
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:29 PM EDT (#34536) #
Ryan, are LeafsTV/RaptorsTV available where you are?

I also liked LeafsTV running Game In An Hour pretty much immediately after the game ended, though the way Sportsnet does it allows me to get home from the stadium and then watch the majority of it.
_Ryan Lind - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#34537) #
I don't think so. At least, I've never seen or even heard of LeafsTV until now.
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:35 PM EDT (#34538) #
JKCL was talking about the expensive field level seats. There's no way those are equivalent to an upper deck seat

Yes, and the expensive field level seats are the ones most devalued by the $2 promotions and giveaways.
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#34539) #
Yes, and the expensive field level seats are the ones most devalued by the $2 promotions and giveaways.

How!?
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#34540) #
It's available in all of the digital packages in the Toronto area, for about two dollars a month. We got it to watch some pre-season games and then cancelled it, because we never watched it.

Jays TV I'd keep all year 'round, tho', just to try to keep it afloat. Provided it was similarly priced.
_Ryan Lind - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:39 PM EDT (#34541) #
I'm almost positive I can't get LeafsTV way out here in BC, which means I probably wouldn't get JaysTV either.

That would be horrible for me, because if the games on RSN got moved to JTV, then I'd be basically hooped.
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:40 PM EDT (#34542) #
The games wouldn't be moved. Extra things would be added to fill up Jays TV.
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:40 PM EDT (#34543) #
Yes, and the expensive field level seats are the ones most devalued by the $2 promotions and giveaways.

How!?


They're the ones that seem most over-priced in comparison?
_Rob - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:43 PM EDT (#34544) #
More proof of the Season From Hell:

Since the Jays played Game #1, they have been in fourth or in last every single day of the season.

The last time they were not in last place, it was July 16. Doc went four innings, gave up six runs and seven hits, then was placed on the DL. He has not pitched since.
_Ryan Lind - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:44 PM EDT (#34545) #
So unfair. T-Bay is facing the Royals, and the Jays have to face the bloody Yankees.

How are they going to climb out of the basement with this?
robertdudek - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#34546) #
I don't think many people consider them to be in the same class at all. That's like saying a Porsche is devalued in consumers' eyes because they just dropped the price on a Honda Civic.
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#34547) #
Robert has it right, Ryan: LeafsTV and RaptorsTV don't show the games, except for the post game condensed replay. The rest of the time they run NHL or NBA highlights, documentaries, interviews, call-in shows and stuff like that. Andy Frost's post-game call in radio show was shown in one corner, live, while 3/4 of the screen ran the replay of the game and the rest was a sports ticker.

There's also The NHL Network, which is just like LeafsTV but obviously not Leafs-centric. It was interesting because it ran a nightly show that would join different live games for ten minutes at a time in between running highlights and hockey news segments.
_6-4-3 - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:47 PM EDT (#34548) #
The discounts the Jays have been doing (such as $2 night, the Starpass, and free tickets avaliable via the website) might also cut into the flex packs that the Jays are selling.

From personal experience, my dad and I got a 5 game flex pack last yaer, and a 7 game one this year. One of our games that we bought beforehand (the first Boston game of the year) became $2 night. This past month, I've been to every series (Oakland, Baltimore, and Tampa) for free, via the Jays website promotion. All of those games, free / $2 seats were avaliable in the section that my flex pack is for. If they're willing to give it away for nothing or almost nothing, I don't think that I'll be looking at the flex packs again, because they're not that good of a deal anymore.

But, there is a good side to the giveaways. Earlier this month, my dad went out East, and I had to get rid of his tickets. My sister agreed to tag along to see Boston. We enjoyed it, and I got her to go again next night to see Tim Wakefield. She then found the free ticket promotion, so she's come with me to see Oakland, Baltimore, etc. Before I dragged her off to the games, she wasn't a baseball fan. Now she's more of a fan, just from having the experience of seeing some games in person.

The Jays should try to do something like Tsouncheck. The Toronto Symphony Orchestra has a program where youth (15- 29) can get into most of their events for $10. It's obviously not a profitable thing, but it gets younger people who would never go to the TSO (like myself) into events, and hopefully they get a few youthful converts.

I've been all around the Dome this year, and I agree that the field level outfield and fieldlevel baselines are worse than the 500 level, at least behind the plate. Sure, you're closer, but you either can't see the Jumbotron, are further away from homeplate, or (in the case of 130C) face towards centerfield for the entire game.

They're the ones that seem most over-priced in comparison?

I don't agree with that. The ones that seem most over-priced in comparison are the 100 / 200 outfield, which get discounted from (around) $22 to $2. Those (I'd say) are the midlevel seats, where you sit if you want to be somewhat closer to the field. If you want great seats, you generally have to pay $50, no matter what promotion is going on.
_Rob - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:47 PM EDT (#34549) #
Extra things would be added to fill up Jays TV.

If only someone had thought of this...
_Ryan Lind - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:48 PM EDT (#34550) #
Okay, that's good. I'd still want JaysTV though. :(

And yeah, I have the NHL Network. It's pretty cool, although it's been awhile since they've had anything new to show...and "NHL on the fly" is awesome.
Named For Hank - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 05:55 PM EDT (#34551) #
Yeah, I'd watch MLB on the Fly.

Of course, they want you to pay the big bucks for Extra Innings, but unless you're following a specific team or have a really omnivorous baseball appetite, it's overkill. Give me a couple of games a night (like I have now by subscribing to all 4 regional Sportsnets for a measly extra 39 cents a month) or extended "drop-ins" like NHL on the Fly and I'll be a happy man.
_Rob - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 06:16 PM EDT (#34552) #
Notes for tonight's game: The lineup against Loaiza looks more or less normal. Menechino is DH. Sparky sits. Quiroz behind the plate. As for Gustavo Chacin? Well, six days after retiring our old friend Tom Evans and some guy named Ronny Paulino, he faces Jeter-ARod-Bernie-Godzilla-Posada, 1-5.
_JackFoley - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 06:27 PM EDT (#34553) #
Loaiza is tomorrow against Doc. That should be interesting.
_G.T. - Monday, September 20 2004 @ 10:26 PM EDT (#34554) #
http://www.mapleleafs.com/story.ml?title=tv_press_releases&ctype=tv_press_releases&n=4648&e=AdminGroup
Robert has it right, Ryan: LeafsTV and RaptorsTV don't show the games

No, MLSE took 12 games off of free TV this year to prop up their network. COMN.

Of course, since Rogers already has a Sportsnet, they don't have nearly the incentive that MLSE had in creating Leafs and Raptors TV.
Named For Hank - Tuesday, September 21 2004 @ 07:13 AM EDT (#34557) #
Who needs a horn when we have a drum? ;)
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