Lineups:

Johnson 7
Hudson 4
Wells 8
Delgado 3
Rios 9
Hinske 5
Zaun 2
Gross DH
Adams SS
Bush

Eckstein 6
Erstad "3"
Guerrero 9
Anderson 8
Glaus DH
Guillen 7
Kennedy 4
B.Molina 2
Figgins 5
Colon

Doesn't make sense to place Adams at the 9 hole.

Adams is coming off a red hot game and he's a projected lead-off hitter, why not place him in that position to get his feet wet?

I hear you. I don't understand the point of having Reed play LF over Gross either.

Sure it makes sense, Ron, at least to me. You don't have to throw every rookie off the 10-meter platform into the deepest part of the pool to get their feet wet. I like Adams in the 9-hole, especially against someone who throws as hard as Colon. He can have the same approach as a leadoff man, but with fewer AB and less pressure.

It's that time of year when a lot of other games really matter. Obviously, there's much more at stake for the Angels tonight than for the Jays, and they will be watching the A's-Red Sox score closely. Boston's been so hot that Anaheim is now closer to the West lead than the Wild Card. Texas is mauling the White Sox, but things don't look good for the Rangers with all their rivals playing so well.

I'm watching the NL with interest, too. Houston is romping, well on their way to an 11th straight win. I figured they couldn't get any worse by sacking Jimy Williams, but I sure didn't see this coming. And the Marlins aren't going away, either, having just made it eight in a row.

Sure it makes sense, Ron, at least to me. You don't have to throw every rookie off the 10-meter platform into the deepest part of the pool to get their feet wet. I like Adams in the 9-hole, especially against someone who throws as hard as Colon. He can have the same approach as a leadoff man, but with fewer AB and less pressure.

I don't see how Adams would have more pressue batting lead off than batting 9th. The Jays as a team are going nowhere I see no benefit of Adams getting fewer AB's.

If I'm the skipper or JP I want to see Adams get as many AB's as possible. Let's see how he responds.

There's no reason outside of injury,fatigue,or crappy play (i.e. Peterson) to not have Adams, Gross, and Quiroz in the lineup each game getting major league experience that can only help them for next season.

Raise your hands if you remember what happened the last time a red-hot Angels team ran into the Jays?

*Raises hand* :-)

I'm with Coach on this one.

While Colon might be having an awful season, as the advanced scout reports, he's been coming on as of late. And with both of his power fastballs, he's got the potential to throw a gem and has done so in the past.

While you may want to get the rookies some experience, you can't just tell Sparky and Zaun to screw themselves either. Reed has had a good season, and has earned a spot in the lineup more often than not. Same goes for Zaun.

You want to let these kids GET THEIR FEET WET, not DROWN THEM by playing them every night no matter who's on the hill.

And your expertise in major-league player development was acquired where, Ron?

This is a learning experience. That involves practice, working on technique, and occasional game appearances. It's laughable that you think you know more about what's best for players you've never met than the coaching staff does.

Fewer AB vs. Bartolo Colon equals less pressure. If you don't believe me, grab a helmet and a bat and step in there.

Ummm... okay... just like that the Jays/Angels game goes out on Extra Innings. I'm now left following the game online through Gameday and watching the Red Sox continue to own the A's. Have the A's beaten them yet this season?

There's no reason to not have Adams, Gross, and Quiroz in the lineup each game getting major league experience that can only help them for next season.

But at the same time I dont believe ABs are like some cumulative learning points. I think the guys are going to learn just as much just by being here, working with the big league coaches, and watching how the professionals work every day. Sometimes you can learn more by watching someone who knows what they're doing. Obviously I want to see them get a good number of ABs and get their feet wet, but I think it can also be a nice idea to give them time off to stay relaxed, observe and reflect.

very nice job by hudson making colon work

I'm a person that believes you learn a lot more by playing and not watching. And rookies will make "rookie" mistakes so it's good for the players to get them out of the way now. Remember Rios's field blunders? Noticed because the skipper penciled in Rios virtually everygame since he's been called up he doesn't make the same amount of mistakes as he did before.

I never said I'm a expert in major league player development, I just simply like to voice my opinion.

watching the Red Sox continue to own the A's.

Mark Redman at home: 7.04 ERA, .347 opponent's AVG (on the road, 2.98 and .249 -- strangest splits you'll ever see in a so-called pitcher's park on a good defensive club)

Funny bit just happened on NESN's coverage of the Red Sox/A's game. The whole top half of the inning, Remy and Orsillo were hyping up the little "Derek Lowe crotch gesture" from last year's playoffs. They were taking guesses about what kind of reaction it would get, and instead of going to commercial, they stayed in Oakland. Lowe makes his way out of the dugout and there's nothing. No booing, no batteries being thrown ala JD Drew, nothing but silence.

Clueless Oakland fans made for a very funny bit. Orsillo had to break the silence and cut to a break.

Noticed because the skipper penciled in Rios virtually everygame since he's been called up he doesn't make the same amount of mistakes as he did before.

Please to be demonstrating cause?

Ron, in case you've forgotten, the reason Rios was left out there to make all those mistakes was because even the "emergency replacements" like Marvin Benard and Chad Hermansen were on the DL, not because it's the best way to develop a rookie. It's a credit to Alex that he didn't completely lose his confidence.

It's one of the most basic essentials of coaching in any sport, at any level -- put your young players where they will have a chance to succeed, then gradually increase the challenge.

And there's a base hit from your AL player of the week.

I've been reading elsewhere about how some people feel like Ichiro should get serious consideration for AL MVP and that got me thinking I though the MVP award goes to the player who is most valuable to their team. And in Ichiro's case if he was removed from the M's this season they would still be a bottom feeding club.

Same thing goes for last years winner A-Rod, you remove A-Rod from the Rangers last season and they still finish in last place in the AL West.

I do know Bonds should be the run-away winner in the NL. You take away Bonds from the Giants and they're not even a .500 club. Most feared hitter in the game.

Hey ump, you'll see the pitches better if you look between those bars on your mask.

Reed has had a good season

That's debatable. In any case, he can be the DH. I just don't see the advantages of DHing Gross unless maybe that's the plan for next year (it is possible.) Or they just might want to give him a break, I understand what Coach is saying about these things.

Coach, I think the essence of nearly all baseball fans, and perhaps even more so Bauxites, is that, misguided as it obviously is, we believe we are smarter than most mlb coaches and management. In fact, I think the basis of Griffin's "zombie-like cult" view on J.P. and Jays fans has a lot to do with the fact that for once fans are openly believing that they may not be smarter than the Toronto G.M.

lets go gabe

I'm not sure we think we we're smarter or anything like that. I just think we have opinions. Nothing wrong with having an opinion that differs from those that are in charge.

Doesnt gross bat a lot like jason giambi.

I'd like to see Adams and Quiroz and Crozier playing every day this month. I don't really think that it would be a good idea, mind you; I'd just like to see it. You know; new faces.

And I wonder if this is the first time in history that a team has called up two '-roz-'es in September.

they just might want to give him a break

Ryan, that's my assumption. Gross has had a long season, including serious elbow problems. DH-ing him once or twice a week is in no way hurting his development, and somebody closer to the situation than us (maybe the trainer, maybe the manager) thinks it's a good idea tonight. We also never hear about the various aches and pains these guys play through, which affect lineups and to a lesser degree, batting orders.

Bush is throwing absolute GAS tonight. He's repeatedly hit 92 and 93 on the gun and he's breaking ball looks sharper. So far he's looked very good.

great inning by bush

Nice inning by Bush. Mowed down the 4-5-6 guys...although to be fair to Glaus, he didn't miss that pitch by too much. I'm excited to see Adams lead off here in the 3rd, this is my first look at the kid live.

colon has already thrown 48 pitches

Wow, if that gun is right, Colon hit 101 on a pitch to Adams.
Hmmm, Wells is wearing a shin guard.

Ha! Figgins glove does the same thing as mine.

Well, they're making the big fella work; maybe that will pay off in the sixth or seventh.

I said this over a week ago and I still believe this today .... I have a feeling there's a chance Bush will pass Batista as the number 3 man on the rotation at some point next season due to performance.

I never saw Bush play before he got called up and when I saw his AAA ERA at over 4 I wasn't expecting him to pitch the way he has since being up with the Jays.

Bush always has a very good idea of what he wants to do on every pitch, and he's executing it very well tonight. Charlie Reliford, on the other hand, rarely has a clue and is making a lot of terrible guesses behind the plate.

in Ichiro's case if he was removed from the M's this season they would still be a bottom feeding club.

Well, if Ichiro was removed from the lineup, they would be a bottom-feeding AAA club. He has been very valuable this year, there's no getting around it.

Now I don't think Suzuki is the MVP - I don't think he's had the most value to his team of all the players in the league.

But the player with the most value to his team is the best player. Most value does not mean "greatest percentage of the overall value of all the guys on his team." It means most. Suzuki represents a greater portion of the total "value" that exists on this year's Seattle team. Because his team mates, for the most part, suck.

But Carlos Guillen has been a more valuable baseball player this year. So has Gary Sheffield. Because they have both been better.

A better player is always more valuable than the player that he is better than.

God, was that tortured syntax or what?

Ron i agree with you i even think he can be a #2 in his career..He reminds me of a young hentgan the way he challeges every hitter

Keep in mind that if Anaheim wants to shut down the opposition, they have Kevin Gregg and Francisco Rodriguez (and lesser-so, Troy Percival) out in the bullpen.

Keep in mind that if Anaheim wants to shut down the opposition, they have Kevin Gregg and Francisco Rodriguez (and lesser-so, Troy Percival) out in the bullpen.

Magpie, I've always tried to simplify MVP to "the guy I would pick first if they were all lined up against the fence" -- the best player, period. That usually means Bonds and A-Rod, but for a change, it's not an automatic choice in the AL. Alex didn't play shortstop, and hasn't been the best hitter on his own team.

With a month to go, I like Sheffield, Guerrero and Guillen, but it's too close to call. Right or wrong, I do give extra consideration to Sheff staying in the lineup despite tremendous pain, so if I had a vote and it was due today, he'd get it.

what about manny and ortiz in the AL for MVP?

I like Sheffield, Guerrero and Guillen, but it's too close to call.

Agreed. And Beltre, Rolen, Edmonds, Pujols ahead of all of them?

That's the real race in the NL, isn't it. Who is this year's runner up?

Great hustle by Vlad and good analysis by Candiotti. He made the double on his second step out of the box.

Anyone notice Sciosia in the pre-game interview presenting Guerrero's lack of walking as a strength?! "He's almost impossible to walk!" I mean, when you can hit like Vlad plate discipline is not exactly a weakness but really...

great play on getting to the ball my heinske but you can not make guerreo to score from 2nd

I would give NL mvp to edmonds because he is also a gold glove he is the total package

you can not get picked off like that.

How Reed get picked off with as short a lead as he had is beyond me. He looked safe from what I saw, looked like Erstad was late with the tag to Sparky's thigh.

I agree that Rolen, Pujols and Edmonds are all having good enough years to be AL MVP, but they give each other so much support that Beltre gets my nod as #2 in the NL -- so many nights, he's been a one-man offence.

I would give NL mvp to edmonds

Rory, you have to be kidding. Bonds is in his own league; he is as valuable as the next two put together. And FYI, Rolen and Beltre are just as good with the glove as Edmonds, at a harder position.

Manny, Ortiz, Ichiro and Santana are all deserving top 10 candidates in a wide open AL race. As always, it's going to be harder to predict what the writers do than it is to debate who "deserves" the award. One thing in Ichiro's favour (from the BBWAA's often-skewed perspective) is that he's having a better year than when he won, but two wrongs do not make a right.

Interesting comments from Gibbons before the game when speaking with good friend Rex Hudler.

Hudler said that Gibbons told him that he feels the Jays need a big name manager from the Jays past and he mentioned either Ernie Whitt or Cito Gaston. He said he would love to be considered for the job, but he feels someone else will get the nod.

Nice play by Russ Adams right there. Full extention, the kid can get up.

Bush wants that pitch back; he tried to jam Figgins but it should have been higher and he left it just a bit over the plate.

Very nice athletic play by young Mr. Adams.

Adams showed nice range, going behind second base to grab the next grounder, but (like a rookie) he tried to make an impossible throw. Butter will commend him for getting to it, then gently remind him you have to eat that ball.

Now or never for the Jays, as the Guerrero error opens the door a crack for the RBI guys. If they don't score soon, Colon can hand it off to that very stingy bullpen.

Hudler said that Gibbons told him that he feels the Jays need a big name manager from the Jays past and he mentioned either Ernie Whitt or Cito Gaston.

Anyone else think Cito's the absolute worst choice to manage the current (next year's) squad?

With the Delgado shift on, O-Dog cleverly raced Figgins to the vacated bag for a delayed SB. Normally, you don't steal down by four, but this was completely risk-free.

Wow, Colon threw a 3-1 changeup down the middle to Carlos. That takes big onions, and it worked. It also served to make the subsequent 97-mph high heater look just a little faster. Bart is really on his game tonight.

Anyone else think Cito's the absolute worst choice to manage the current (next year's) squad?

Not the worst, but the wrong guy and they don't need a change. I think they're playing well for Gibby.

How fast is Adams? When he was drafted, they talked a lot about his speed, and I remember OTH his having high SB totals at the time. Any reason why he didn't run more at Syracuse? Organizational philosophy, leg problems, ect? He had good % numbers as a baserunner in the minors before he stopped altogether this year.

I know it speed isn't a priority for this organization, but after JP's comments about moving to a different type of offense in the post-Delgado era (assuming he wasn't just posturing to improve his negiotiating power), it'd be nice to have someone they could count on for 30+ steals.

I get the idea that Cito sees himself as the elder statesman of Toronto baseball and wouldn't lower himself to going along with anybody else's plan, which makes him a poor choice indeed. I have no inside dope of any kind; it's just my outsider's impression.

hr rbi sb bb tb avg ops
B. Bonds (SF - LF) 39 91 6 194 262 .371 1.434
Edmonds (StL - CF) 40 104 4 85 299 .315 1.109
A. Béltre (LA - 3b 44 101 3 40 330 .338 1.037
Rolen (StL - 3B) 32 117 4 67 285 .319 1.014
coach the numbers are way to close and to say that 3b is harder than Cf that is just silly to say. And i do not want to hear that there is nobosy on the giants he will not win the mvp if the giants do not get in the play offs and right know they are not going to make it.

How about ernie whitte to be the next manager

the absolute worst choice to manage

Oh, there are many worse options. One of them is working in Philadelphia right now.

Gaston's main strengths: a) imposing order on a chaotic situation; b) sorting out the relievers and running a bullpen; c) gaining and keeping the respect of his players.

Gaston's weaknesses: a) slow to adjust to changing circumstances; b) not the best judge of talent.

Gaston's particular strengths are really not what the Toronto situation requires. Although I wouldn't mind seeing him take a crack at running this bullpen. It was one of the things he did well.

All managers have specific strengths; all managers have specific weaknesses. Almost all managers lose effectivesness after several years in the saem job because: a) the team's circumstances have changed, and that manager's particular skill set is no longer what the job requires; b) loyalty to the past begins to over rule fidelity to the future. This last was very much a Gaston weakness; it has been very much a Tony LaRussa weakness as well.

What particular skill set do we think the next Toronto manager needs to bring to the table?

My main suggestion: an ability to sort through the young talent that is starting to crash through the doors. (This was a peculiar strength of Dick Williams, you might remember. Now Dick is a grumpy old man, and retired.)

What else does the team need?

Bonds is so absurdly better than anyone else this year, the conversation shouldn't even be had...the Giants have been in contention, so them making the playoffs or not shouldn't really matter. Bonds could go 0-September and he'd still have better numbers than the others.

I don't expect JP to sign any proven 30-35+ HR guys in the off-season (he said he won't pay one player 10 mil a season) so it makes sense to play small ball next season.

The Jays do have speed with Rios, Adams, and Hudson to run.

But if Delgado walks and nobody is brought in to replace him I shudder to think where the HR power will come from.

Also it's going to be a hard sell to the average fan if Delgado walks and a proven masher doesn't take his place.

I can't wait for the off-season.

Making the playoffs does matter in a MVP race this close.

It isn't this close.

Yes we are on the board

Going Going ZAUN!!!

Just barely made it to the first row!!!

Going Going ZAUN!!!

Just barely made it to the first row!!!

Thomas--- so if it is not that close what is your order

Gaston's weaknesses: a) slow to adjust to changing circumstances;

I guess that's what I was thinking of in particular. The new Jays need a guy who can work well with spare parts and keep everyone sharp- that's one skill Bobby Valentine had that makes me think he'd be good, but there's a lot of others he had that make me think he'd be bad.

My main suggestion: an ability to sort through the young talent that is starting to crash through the doors.

I agree, and add- the ability to optimally deploy part-timers. The Reds for years seemed really good at this type of thing.

An unrelated question: anyone think the Jays could've found a use for Alex Escobar, who the White Sox claimed back in August from the Indians?

It's Barry's league. The other guys just play in it.

Bonds creates 20.27 runs per 27 outs. Todd Helton (10.78) and Jim Edmonds (10.52) are the only other guys in double figures.

He has been roughly as productive as Jeff Bagwell and Chipper Jones, combined. Sammy Sosa and Brian Giles, combined.

Plus, he has 10 Baserunner Kills. I love that. He still plays a little defense.

Bonds is in his own league but that does not mean he will win mvp

it makes sense to play small ball next season

That depends on what you mean by "small ball." Attempting to steal bases (or giving up outs by bunting runners over) early in an American League game is idiotic. It makes slightly more sense in the NL. Starting your runner once in a while to stay out of a double play and maybe get more first-and-third situations isn't so terrible, but you can line into double plays, too.

A good offence doesn't have to be all walks and homers; walks and doubles work pretty well, too. That said, playing for one run late in a close game is a skill every good team should have. Different tactics for different situations.

Anyone watching Cubs-Expos? Wow. Needing a triple for the cycle, Corey Patterson goes deep to bring the Cubs within a run.

Manny, Ortiz, Ichiro and Santana are all deserving top 10 candidates in a wide open AL race

If a guy on a non-contender can be considered, what about Melvin Mora, the league leader in RC/27? Yes, he was injured and missed time, but even so, his RC total is within two of Vlad and Sheff.

Still, though, I see Ichiro as the best player. His RC/27 is higher than Vlad's or Sheff's (by a surprising margin... his base-stealing has a real value). Vlad's probably a comparable fielder/baserunner, but Sheffield certainly isn't.

Playing time has to give Ichiro the edge over Mora, and defence/baserunning/ballpark effects should more than make up for the offensive advantage Manny has on him.

Ichiro's home/road stats - .356/.399/.426 vs. .399/.434/.514

Bonds is in his own league but that does not mean he will win mvp

That's certainly true. Just because you are the most valuable player, doesn't mean the BWAA is going to vote for you.

George Bell over Alan Trammell?
Andre Dawson over Ozzie Smith?
Frank Thomas over Roberto Alomar?
Mo Vaughan over Albert Belle?
Terry Pendleton over Barry Bonds?
Jeff Kent over Barry Bonds?

A few of my favourite lousy votes...

To me, regardless of any way you conceivably want to measure team in an MVP race, you can't not give it to Bonds this year. Any metric you look at has him heads and tails above the opposition, and he plays a mean defence, too. Magpie is exactly right. It is Barry's league and everyone else is just a participant.

Rory, you seem to be familar with OPS, quoting it above to show how "close" it is between Bonds and the others. The difference between Bonds' OPS and Edmonds' OPS is 325 points. Take 325 from Edmonds' OPS and you get .784. Amongst players who qualify for the batting title in the NL a .784 OPS ranks 49th in the league, tying you with Rafael Furcal, between Jimmy Rollins and Juan Pierre. And that's not even a very good way to compare stats.

Cubs lose... too bad.

How long has Rance Mulliniks been doing colour? I didn't realize it was him until they just signed off...

Bonds is in his own league but that does not mean he will win mvp

Ummmmmmm, Rory, why is that again? If you admit he's so much better than everyone else that he's "in his own league," how can you turn around and suggest Barry Bonds isn't the NL MVP?

Rance on the Score? I watched an Expos game in about late May and he wasn't there. It was Sam Constantino and Darrin Fletcher.

Just like i feel ichiro is in his own league but he will not will it

A few of my favourite lousy votes...

At this point, Bonds isn't likely to be deturred from the MVP by over-zealous BWAA writers. His level of play is unreal relative to his "peers" and no longer had weekly incidents with members of the media.

A few of my favourite lousy votes...

Ichiro over A-Rod and Giambi? He wasn't even MVP of his own team; that was obviously Boone.

BONDS-NL MVP...HANDS DOWN...101 IBB, if that is not MVP i don't know what is!

ORTIZ-AL MVP...Tough call though, will be close!

Just like i feel ichiro is in his own league but he will not will it

The Giants, as of today, are a game out of a playoff spot. I don't think you can compare them to the Mariners, who have been out of contention since April 15. And I don't think the writers, as mysterious as they can be, will make that comparison. I won't touch the Ichiro/Bonds thing.

Last year, the knock on Bonds was his counting stats, which were off the other "candidates" a bit, mostly because he only played 130 games, but also because the Giants had a pretty weak offense. This year, he'll wind up with about 15 more games played. And his OB% is up 80 points. Just when you thought he couldn't get better...

101 IBB, if that is not MVP i don't know what is!

Yep, usually you can't get unanimous agreement from managers on anything, but they all fear Barry equally. :)

The Rockies did try pitching to him tonight, so he hit his 40th (#698).

Wow.. I'm amazed there can be this much argument over the NL MVP. Bonds and Schmidt are the only two players that would rank higher than "slightly-above-average" on that team. The performance of that team is outstanding considering what they have to work with.

Ankiel's back.

A scoreless inning in relief today. Gave up a leadoff single to Nady and then got the next three batters, including Ramon Hernandez and Sean Burroughs. No strikeouts, but 11 strikes in 14 pitches.

Wonderful news about Rick Ankiel. Congratulations to him for recovering from his physical and psychological problems.

Just like i feel ichiro is in his own league but he will not will it

That's true, Ichiro is in his own league. But he's playing a different game from everyone else, and it's not one that brings as much value to his team as Bonds's.

My vote for AL MVP right now would be 1. Santana 2. Tejada 3. Guerrero 4. Ichiro 5. Guillen. Interestingly, not a single American player in the top 5 and my four top position players are not on playoff teams...

No strikeouts, but 11 strikes in 14 pitches.

Ankiel has been a strike-throwing machine this year. He has been operating at Halladay-like efficiency, throwing 70% strikes or more on a consistent basis.

Rick Ankiel
A pitcher's career barely alive
Gentlemen, we can rebuild him
We have the technology
We have the capability to build the world's first bionic pitcher
Rick Ankiel will be that man
We can make him better than he was before
Better. Stronger. Faster

Ah, nostalgia. $6 million was the cost of building the bionic man, not his projected salary.

Well, since Ankiel has received just a shade over $4 million in salaries and bonuses since signing with the Cardinals, they have clearly done well. No idea how many other costs the Cards have sunk into Ankiel, but I would venture to guess they paid well under $6 million. And that's not taking into account the inflation since the mid-1970s!

Obviously the cost of bionics technology has declined considerably.

Bionics is a thing of the past man, now its all nanotech. Making one's arm dense enough to hit a ball out of the infield when hit by a pitch will not only happen, it will be the norm.

Bionics is a thing of the past man, now its all nanotech.

Eddie Gaedel? Bah! You ain't seen nothin' yet.

To me, regardless of any way you conceivably want to measure team in an MVP race, you can't not give it to Bonds this year. Any metric you look at has him heads and tails above the opposition, and he plays a mean defence, too. Magpie is exactly right. It is Barry's league and everyone else is just a participant.

That's not quite true. If you focus solely on RBI and runs scored (which BTW I do NOT advocate), Bonds wouldn't finish in the top 3. While he may be a good leftfielder, leftfield might now be the position of least defensive value generally (perhaps supplanting first base for that honour). Scott Rolen has tons more defensive value than Bonds, and in my opinion he is the second best player in the NL right now.

Scott Rolen has tons more defensive value than Bonds, and in my opinion he is the second best player in the NL right now

Are you sure you don't mean second best on his team? :)

Edmonds has been much better, offensively. How do you compare a Gold Glove CFer with a gold glove 3B, in terms of value? I dunno. Rolen is, though, playing the same position as Beltre, ARod, Mora, Ramirez, Chavez, Lowell, etc... all of which are "in his league", offensively. Who are the next best CFers? Beltran, Rowand, Damon... Kotsay??? That's a pretty steep dropoff!

Looking at the CFers ranked by RC/27 on ESPN, I can't help but notice Vernon Wells' name right below Juan Pierre and Randy Winn. Ouch.

I think Edmonds is overrated defensively; whereas I think Rolen is the best defensive third baseman since Graig Nettles (and I think he's as good as Nettles).

I think it's a big mistake to compare a player to the other top players at his position to ascertain his value. One ought to compare to a replacement level player at the position.

Robert, my point was any metric that one should be looking at when determining MVP, whether you prefer Win Shares to VORP to OPS, or some combination. Not that voters will look at those stats we all know, but they should.

And also, I don't care if Barry played like Manny Ramirez in the outfield. He's still my MVP hands down, and I don't think you could convince me otherwise. His defence only adds to his value. My point was that we're not comparing Gold Glovers with an Iron Glove.

Most deserving MVP candidate in the NL that won't get any recognition he deserves: Mark Loretta. He's top 5 in my book.