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Okay, so Ichiro is making a run at Gorgeous George Sisler's 85-year-old single-season record of 257 hits for the 1920 [Corrected - ed.] St. Louis Browns. And while Sisler played every single game for the Brownies ... there were only 154 of 'em.



You know this argument well, of course, from the title of the Billy Crystal movie 61* ... back in 1961, because the baseball season was eight games longer for the first time, then-commissioner Ford Frick decided to place an asterisk beside Roger Maris' name in the record books unless he passed Ruth by Game #154 of the Yankees season.. Beacuse the Tracy Stallard "fastball" that ended up #61 didn't come until the season's final day, in Game #162, Ruth's record was semi-preserved.

Do we have any recourse but to acknowledge historical precedent if Ichiro doesn't pass Sisler before the end of the Mariners' 154th game, Sept. 25 against the Rangers in Arlington? And you know, he just might --but what if he doesn't?

Another interesing historical anomaly -- Sisler, like Ruth (and McGwire at USC, for that matter), started his career as a pitcher. In fact, he had a career ERA of 2.35, which in the dead ball era translated to a career ERA+ of "just" 124. Does anyone who's seen an Ichiro BB from RF to 3B doubt he could carve a career on the mound if necessary?

Back to the question at hand ... do we asterisk the hit record? Please, spare the arguments about "Sisler didn't have to face specialty relievers" and "Sisler didn't have to face minorities" and "Sisler didn't have to travel thousands of miles to play every single road game like Seattle does." (Frankly, I'd rather fly SEA-TAC to BOS than take a train from St. Louis to New York.) Apples and oranges. It seems that "number of games played" is a straight-up comparison.

As a compromise, let's point out that Sisler had 631 AB (I don't know how many plate appearances), another number Ichiro is going to blow past. He'd have to get 34 hits in his next 38 at-bats (that is, hit .895) to match Sisler at that level; FYI, though it never seems to be brought up, Maris had precisely 50 more AB in 1961 than Ruth did in 1927.

Much ado about nothing? Or protecting the historical integrity of the game?

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_Jim - Monday, September 06 2004 @ 12:10 PM EDT (#20140) #
I don't see the travel as an issue.

Since you don't want to debate the other two points - there isn't much to argue.

Either you think:
A. It's the season record - no matter what length the season.
B. It's the season record - hits/G is a dealbreaker.

NCAA football deals with it that way because the teams can play different length seasons (and have multiple open weeks). They show their leaders on a per/G basis. Whatever that is worth.

Personally I'm an (A) guy, it's the seasosonal record, if he gets that many hits in a 'season', then it's the record.
Mike Green - Monday, September 06 2004 @ 12:27 PM EDT (#20141) #
Mick, you keep trying to keep us on our toes :-). 257 hits in the deadball era? Impossible, I thought. It was. Sisler banged out his 257 in 1920.

I'm with Jim about the asterisk. Leave it off. It's not a "rate record". So, a player who has 220 hits in 130 games (due to injury or platooning) does not qualify, and if Ichiro gets his 258, then let him have the record all to himself. The same should have gone for Maris.
_Mick - Monday, September 06 2004 @ 01:27 PM EDT (#20142) #
Right you are, Mike, I simply misread the BaseballReference.com entry. The correction to the lede sentence has been made and noted.
_Mark J - Monday, September 06 2004 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#20143) #
Count me in the "(A) it's a season record" group. If anyone wants to have a separate H/G list, go for it.

And since you bring up ABs, there's always the possibility of a H/AB list. Hmm... I wonder if I could think of a snappy name for that? ;)
Mike Green - Monday, September 06 2004 @ 04:23 PM EDT (#20144) #
Incidentally, Sisler played in Sportsmen's Park, an extreme hitters environment comparable to Coors Field of 98-00. Put Tony Gwynn or Ichiro in that environment, and they'd have a shot at Sisler's record in 154 games. Not that I'm suggesting that seasonal records should be park-adjusted...
_Mick - Monday, September 06 2004 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#20145) #
Not that I'm suggesting that seasonal records should be park-adjusted...

Precisely the reason I suggested we not start making the integration/trvel/night baseball arguments. You'd end up with "Most Hits, Season, Park-Adjusted, Day Games only in the pre-integration/pre-air-travel era and every possible iteration thereof.
_Wayne H. - Monday, September 06 2004 @ 05:06 PM EDT (#20146) #
Isn't the length of season, in many ways, a red herring issue?

Too many recent seasons to list, have been played at fewer than the prescribed 162 games, due to work stoppages. Rarely are they brought into the discussion when total games per season are used as a yardstick. Usually, they are conveniently omitted.

In no season,regardless of era or total schedule length, do players get an equal number of plate appearances. A player with a stronger team, than one with an anemic offence, will enjoy a longer "season" independent of the the number of listed "games".

Count me in the group of letting the record stand.'

258 hits is a monster total, in any era.
_Keith Talent - Monday, September 06 2004 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#20147) #
Maybe it's a good time to remove Maris' asterisk. As well, look for the season to be shortened to as few as 154 games in the coming years with the Division Series expanded to 7 games.
_Tyler - Monday, September 06 2004 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#20148) #
Mick,

I notice that you used the word "lede" in your sentence about correcting the opening sentence. I've seen this used in other contexts, by people who write professionally, as I believe you do, and was wondering what it means...
_Homsar - Monday, September 06 2004 @ 06:33 PM EDT (#20149) #
Maybe it's a good time to remove Maris' asterisk.

Two problems there.

One, there was no asterisk by Maris' name. IIRC two records were listed - Maris' for 162 games and Ruth's for 154.

Two, Maris doesn't have the record any more. Some guy named Bonds does.
_Jim - Monday, September 06 2004 @ 06:57 PM EDT (#20150) #
'One, there was no asterisk by Maris' name'

I thought there was at one point and they removed it.
_Mick - Monday, September 06 2004 @ 07:18 PM EDT (#20151) #
Tyler, "lede" is one of those spelling habits you pick up in J101 and never stop using. It basically means "Lead" (the beginning, not the metal) ... it's an archaism from the days when -30- meant "the end of the story" because code -30- told a teletype to stop transmitting. I have always assumed that it had something to do with the fact that in the days when most all news stories were phoned in to a copy desk for "rewrite," some nimrod must have kept reading "lead" as pronounced "led" and something horrible happened.

as you have rather incidentally noted, about the only thing that particular spelling is good for now is to give someone away as one who writes for a living.

-30-
_Lefty - Monday, September 06 2004 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#20152) #
I also think the use of -30- at the bottom of copy was so that nothing could be written at the bottom thus changing the stories intent or context.

In many press releases today to see End of Copy, which basically replaces -30-.
_Mick - Tuesday, September 07 2004 @ 11:23 AM EDT (#20153) #
This from Lee Sinins' ATM Reports today, when asked when or if he woudl start an "Ichiro Hit Watch." (Lee is not impressed.)


Here's why I'm not doing it--Despite all of those hits, he still isn't leading the league in OBA. Despite all of those hits, he's still only 5th in the league in total bases. Despite all of those hits, he's still far behind Bonds for the major league lead in times on base and his figure in that area is tied for 2nd in the majors, he is in a too close to call battle with 3 others for that spot. Despite all of those hits, he's on pace to just barely make it into the top 100 on the all time list for times on base. There is no way in the world, that he's going to make it into the top 100 on the all time list for times on base vs. the league average. His status for the top 10 in the majors in RCAA in day to day, with multiple other players competing to knock him out of it.

Suzuki's having a very good year, but far from a top of the line season just among 2004 players and certainly not such greatness when the pool is expanded to history as a whole. He's on pace to just barely make it into the top 500 all time RCAA list, but that's only if he keeps his current pace and does finish with 60 RCAA. If he "falls" all the way down to finishing with just 59, forgot the top 500. And, at this point in time, he still hasn't cracked the top 800.
Coach - Tuesday, September 07 2004 @ 11:50 AM EDT (#20154) #
It almost sounds like Lee resents all the attention that Ichiro is getting. Those of us who are fascinated by his pursuit of Sisler aren't trying to imply that he's better than Bonds, or the AL MVP, or anything but what he is -- the best current practitioner of an art that since the days of Wee Willie Keeler, has been interesting to observe.

I've always tipped my cap to the likes of Rose, Carew, Gwynn and Boggs, because that was how I tried to hit. Lacking the physical gift of being able to consistently swat the ball 400 feet, and faced with the reality that my mechanics suffered when I swung too hard, I learned that a whole lot of singles and occasional doubles and triples was the best way I could help my team. So I'm partial to those guys and have tremendous admiration for them, without an inflated opinion of their "true" value. I also like slow guys who are smart, aggressive baserunners. Go figure.

A single-season record is a single-season record, and Ichiro is one of the most entertaining and talented players ever. I'm rooting for him to get to 258 and hope Selig doesn't Frick out.
_Mick - Tuesday, September 07 2004 @ 12:12 PM EDT (#20155) #
Dang, looks like the TT font tag didn't get closed ... let's turn it OFF. There. (I hope)
_G.T. - Tuesday, September 07 2004 @ 12:13 PM EDT (#20156) #
It almost sounds like Lee resents all the attention that Ichiro is getting

I don't know if he resents it, so much as thinks that there are other accomplishments that might be more worthy of the attention Ichiro is getting. I don't really have a problem with that, as I think it's kind of true.

I do think it's ironic, though, that he seems to be giving Ichiro's year even more attention. Instead of "disparaging" Ichiro's season, why not sum up in a sentence or two why it's not all that impressive overall, and use the rest of the two paragraphs to talk about Bonds, Edmonds, Pujols, Santana, or whomever else he feels DOES deserve the attention? Instead of saying who isn't leading the league in OBP, why not mention the guy who is? (and is 2nd in BA and 4th in SLG... until five minutes ago, I had no idea just how good a year Melvin Mora was having... where are his "props"?)
Mike Green - Monday, September 13 2004 @ 11:38 AM EDT (#20157) #
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/ichiros-edge/
COMN for a Bill James' study on the effect of the 162 game schedule on Ichiro's quest.
_Mick - Sunday, October 03 2004 @ 02:24 AM EDT (#20158) #
As much as I despise messing with the integrity of a blog's full posting from all contributors, I decided to delete the unfortunately racist comment posted here by "Ichiro Fan." Sir (or ma'am). you are welcome to post here at any time, but please confine your comments to more appropriate areas.

And congratulations to the new hit king; I hope he gets 275 in 2005.
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