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Archives Game 136 - Batista v. Mulder
While the A's have their seemingly annual hot streak as they head toward another division crown, the Jays find themselves at the other end of the standings spectrum. As the Jays approach the final 4 weeks of the season they find themselves in last place 3.5 games behind the Devil Rays who have lost their last 7 games. The Jays are 7 games behind 3rd place Baltimore, and barring another diastorous September by the O's, that looks unobtainable.


The rest of the season looks like this for the Jays:

Oakland - 2
@ Anaheim - 3
@ Texas - 3
Baltimore - 3
Tampa - 3
@ NY - 3
@ Tampa - 3
@ Baltimore - 4
NY - 3

The Devil Ray schedule looks like this:

Detriot - 2
@ NY - 5
@ KC - 3
@ Boston - 3
@ Toronto - 3
KC - 3
Toronto - 3
Boston - 3
@ Detriot - 3

If the Jays make a move to 4th place it'll likely come beginning with the Rays' road trip next week where they play 8 of 11 against Boston and NY, with all 11 games on the road. After that Tampa will come to SkyDome.

Today the Jays face the AL's leader in wins, Mark Mulder. Many baseball writers will consider Mulder the AL Cy Young favorite, but frankly at this point it should be clear that Johan Santana is the superior pitcher so far this year. Perhaps Mulder inspires his teammates to score more runs and I don't realize it.

Anyway, the lefty is still a fine pitcher, but has been beatable lately with a 4.50 ERA in his last 3 starts. Believe it or not, the Jays are actually hitting lefties better than righties this year:

vs RHP: .257/.324/.387
vs LHP: .281/.346/.445

Miguel Batista has been erratic of late, but pitched a fine game in his last start against the Yankees getting the win after allowing only 2 runs over 7 innings.

Enjoy the game.
Posted by Pistol on Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 01:11 AM EDT.
Game 136 - Batista v. Mulder | 208 comments | Create New Account
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_Magpie - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 03:01 PM EDT (#36946) #
Here are your lineups, from the scene of the crime

Kotsay, cf
McLemore, 2b
Chavez, 3b
Hatteburg, 1b
Durazo, dh
Byrnes, rf
Miller, c
McMillon, lf
Crosby, ss
Mulder, p

Johnson, lf
Hudson, 2b
Wells, cf
Delgado, 1b
Rios, rf
Menechino, 3b
Woodward, ss
Cash, c
Quiroz, dh
Batista, p

I know some folks would like to see all the kids playing, but Oakland is in a pennant race, and that's just not done.

And who wants to do the Red Sox any favours anyway?
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_Ron - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 03:08 PM EDT (#36947) #
Dammit I want to see Adams and Crozier in the lineup. Chances are the Jays are going to lose with the "veterans" anyways so why not lose with the youngsters, at least they'll get experience.

I'm sure the fans that paid for the tickets would rather see the kids too.
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_Bird Watcher - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 03:24 PM EDT (#36948) #
A fine win by Batista last time ??? Hey, I wish him well but spare us the revisionist history. ZERO strikeouts. Hit harder than a bag of nails through the first 3 innings. Without 2 key double plays, Batista would have been down 5-6 runs. The key with Miguel obviously is to survive the early innings as he goes through the painful process of finding and sorting out his stuff. Fortunately, the double plays bailed him out last time as he struggled to get his act together. Against the patient A's, he'll do well to get through five innings without 3-4 walks. Add 7 or 8 hits and it's another recipe for disaster (assuming the double play fairy godmother doesn't show up again !). Is the Minnesota deal completely off the table now ? Sure looked good to me from both a talent and budgeting perspective.
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_6-4-3 - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#36949) #
Odds are the rookies will start more regularily against Baltimore and Tampa.

As a non-paying customer at last night's game, and a paying customer at tommorow's game, I'm somewhat torn by this. Ideally, when I show up at a game, the Jays should be fielding a competative lineup. But, given that this is the Season from Hell (TM), I won't complain if the young 'uns are starting. At this point in the season, nothing can really be gained by starting Gomez / Woodward or Cash / Zaun, so why not play Adams and Crozier a few nights a week? Last night's loss was a hard one to watch, but it was made better by seeing Adams' first major league hit, and Swisher's debut. I won't mind if I see more of the same phasing-in process: a pinch-hit from Adams, a DH start for Crozier, etc.
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_Dr B - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#36950) #
Dammit I want to see Adams and Crozier in the lineup. Chances are the Jays are going to lose with the "veterans" anyways so why not lose with the youngsters, at least they'll get experience.


The Jays have got to play their veterans really. It's not a meaningful game for the Jays, but it is for the A's, so the Jays are obliged to play the best team they have got. As 6-4-3 says, you'll see the young players against the Tampas and Baltimores of this world, and plenty of them next year.

While I too want to see new players, we should enjoy the veterans while they are there...
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_mistermike - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 03:47 PM EDT (#36951) #
The Jays veterans have pretty much proven to be a mediocre bunch. Wouldn't the Jays be giving the A's a better run for their money by playing young guys who are trying to prove something?
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Pistol - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 03:53 PM EDT (#36952) #
A fine win by Batista last time ??? Hey, I wish him well but spare us the revisionist history.

Dude, chill.

He gave up 2 runs over 7 innings against the Yankees. That's a fine start. It's not like I said he was outstanding or untouchable.
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_Quiroz - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#36953) #
Quiroz is in the game, why doesn't anybody care?? He's one of the kids, im pumped to see what he can do against a great mlb pitcher.
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#36954) #
Dammit I want to see Adams and Crozier in the lineup.

Perhaps your impatience causes you to forget that it makes absolutely no sense to start either of them today against one of the toughest southpaws on the planet. Gibby's lineup has eight RH batters and Delgado, who hasn't seen Mulder for a couple of years but is 4-for-15 with 3 walks for their careers. Letting Quiroz DH is a smart move too; he can get those first-game jitters out of the way without having to worry about his defence.

I think either Sparky or Rios will sit tomorrow vs. Harden and Crozier will get his first start. But if he doesn't, I've just guessed wrong; I won't be wailing that it's some kind of mistake. The Jays know exactly what they are doing when it comes to player development
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_Magpie - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#36955) #
On June 9 Batista tossed a 4 hit shutout against the Dodgers and fanned a season high 8 batters.

He hasn't struck out anyone since, of course.

OK, I exagerrate. There's a lot of concern, and I understand it, about a 33 year old pitcher with a declining K rate. We know he's working with some kind of injury, but it's still worrisone.

But I'd just as worried about Tim Hudson.

Yeah, the guy leading the league in ERA.

He's struck out even fewer batters than Batista, and his physical problems (hip) now appear to be chronic.

There are some differences of course. Hudson never walks anyone (1.9 per 9 IP), which is why he gets away with 4.5 Ks per 9. Batista has an excellent chance of leading the AL in walks now that Zambrano has moved to the other league.

But if Oakland were to dump one of the big three, I think it will be Hudson. I know everyone assumes it will be Zito, but I like his future more than Hudson's.
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_Emerald - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:19 PM EDT (#36956) #
That makes sense, also since Hudson is 29, Zito is 26.

Hudson at 5 mil. a year, Zito at 3 mil. a year, from the financial standpoint.
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#36957) #
Mostly sliders from Miguel so far, but they were 88-90 with nice late break -- I think he may be feeling better physically than he was last month. What was missing for a few starts was that 94-96 heater that tails in to righty batters. We'll see if he has it when he needs it.

The Yankees lost again, as Sir Sid shut them out to beat Mussina, the king of selfish whiners. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

1-0 Jays on the slow roller by Rios, set up by great AB from Sparky, Vernon and Carlos.
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_bmy - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#36958) #
bad call by the ump. carlos' foot clearly crossed the plate
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_Magpie - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#36959) #
Info found browsing through today's game notes...

Has anyone else wondered why Orlando Hudson, batting .277 with 11 HR has more RBI than Vernon Wells, batting .272 with 16 HR.

Playing time? Nah. Vernon has 434 AB in 107 games; Hudson has 390 AB in 104 games. So it's not opportunities. Wells has 115 AB with men in scoring position, Hudson has 96.

It's just that Wells has hit .200 in those situations, and Hudson has hit .260.

And that's just one of those things that happens.

Hmmm. I sure thought Delgado got his foot on the plate there.
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_Emerald - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#36960) #
I'd like to see a closer replay of that Delgado slide, from overhead it looks like he just might have gotten across the plate.

Ah, he was out. 1-0 Toronto then.
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:30 PM EDT (#36961) #
That was certainly close enough to get the call, but I suppose it evens out the McMillon play last night, which was a lucky break for the Jays.
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_DaveInNYC - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:31 PM EDT (#36962) #
Ya know, if I'm Delgado I don't let my 230 pound frame go to waiste there. It was a great slide, but why not just steamroll Damian Miller? Odds of dislodging the ball are high seeing as how big Carlos is and it nets the Jays a run.

Let out the caged beast big fella!
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_Magpie - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#36963) #
The consensus up here is that Delgado's foot hit the ground and lifted back off it; it went overthe edge of the plate without actually touching it.
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_Magpie - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#36964) #
Ladies and gents, Guillermo Quiroz. Welcome aboard.
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_DaveInNYC - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:37 PM EDT (#36965) #
Ground out to 3rd on a high chopper.

Hey, it beats having to watch Cash hit.
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:37 PM EDT (#36966) #
I don't think he had to run him over, Dave. The runner takes a risk on those collisions too, so you save that for when the plate is blocked. Miller was a couple of steps up the line and Carlos had the throw beat, so the hook slide was a perfectly good idea, but sometimes your foot does bounce over the plate, and in this case, maybe he could have stretched it an inch or two farther.
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_mistermike - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:37 PM EDT (#36967) #
Ouch. Didn't realize Quiroz was hitting less than .230 in Syracuse.
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_DaveInNYC - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#36968) #
Barry Bonds' "body armor" meet Guillermo Quiroz' batting gloves.

Anyone else see that monster hand protector on GQ's batting glove?
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:41 PM EDT (#36969) #
Yeah, mistermike. When a hitter breaks his hand, there are almost always issues of confidence when he returns, in addition to getting the timing back.

Now there's a baserunning clinic!
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_Loveshack - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#36970) #
Awesome. That's one of the best double plays Ive ever seen.
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_Ron - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#36971) #
Man that was some bad base running. Looked like Kotsay didn't know if he should break for 2nd or not and then got caught up.
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_mistermike - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#36972) #
Anyone have Quiroz's stats from recent seasons? I'm hoping we can chalk up this year's poor numbers to the broken hand.
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_DaveInNYC - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#36973) #
Oh God, the little kid's announcing the batters again...

That's almost as bad as the Oakland A's lovefest.

God he's annoying!
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_Curtis D - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#36974) #
Yeah, Quiroz had a great year in 2003 at AA. Hopefully he can bounce back in 2005. Any word on how long Zaun is out? I see Cash is playing, but I didn't catch the story behind the move.
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_Ron - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:47 PM EDT (#36975) #
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?Name=GGHH
COMN for Quiroz's stats
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:48 PM EDT (#36976) #
It was bad enough that Crosby got caught in no-man's land. I don't know what Kotsay was thinking, with the first rundown likely to end at second base. While not quite as bad as their playoff misdventures between third and home last year, that was absolutely brutal.
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_DaveInNYC - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:52 PM EDT (#36977) #
Great AB by Delgado and way to take the tough lefty opposite field!

2-0 Jays
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#36978) #
Oh, what a beautiful piece of hitting. Just beautiful.
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#36979) #
So nice to have the real Carlos back. I don't know who that imposter was earlier in the season. :)

Now if only he could stay after this season...
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#36980) #
Not to be found in the box score, but "assists" on that second run: Hudson and Wells hustling down the line to avoid being doubled up, and Butterfield (as he does 99.9% of the time) reading the play perfectly.
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#36981) #
OK, who are the pretenders for the 2B Gold Glove? We all know who deserves it.
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_Curtis D - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#36982) #
Nice snag by the O-Dog. Batista sure is getting the benefit of the double-play this afternoon.
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_Emerald - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#36983) #
Tremendous! Was that a double play?
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_Magpie - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#36984) #
Three DP in 4 innings, and none of them routine.
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_Emerald - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#36985) #
Sportsnet has gotta fix their scoreboard, I don't believe the Jays have ever batting in the top of the inning at SkyDome.
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_Braby21 - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#36986) #
Why does Batista get so many DB's? He walks batter after batter and gets out of the inning w/o throwing many pitches b/c he lets the next guy hit the ball hard to one of his infielders, he's getting lucky, i love it haha.
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_Ron - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#36987) #
I have a question for the real baseball buffs here:

Has a Starting Pitcher who has started at least 30 games, ever Walked more batters then they K'ed in a season?

Batista is creeping closer and closer with each start. I'm wondering if it's just the hip or he simply got tired right around the all-star break and age has caught up with him.
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_Curtis D - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#36988) #
I really think Bret Boone will win the GG again this year. I haven't seen enough of him to know whether or not it would be deserved, but the award tends to go to the same player year after year, even if it just on reputation. That being said, I sure hope Hudson wins, because he has been spectacular this season. I can't think of anyone else in contention. Belliard, Kennedy, Rivas, Soriano, Bellhorn, Cairo, Scutaro, Harris....I can't see anyone other than Hudson or Boone winning, really.
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:07 PM EDT (#36989) #
Has a Starting Pitcher who has started at least 30 games, ever Walked more batters then they K'ed in a season?

He hasn't done it before, but Kazuhisa Ishii is looking like he'll give it a go this year (80BB, 76K, in 147 innings)
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:08 PM EDT (#36990) #
If Boone wins, that will be a crime. He looks old and slow out there. Belliard is better than people think with the glove and has had a good year at the plate, but I'd say the next-best to Orlando defensively has been Infante.
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_CaramonLS - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#36991) #
Ortiz hasn't done it either, he always manages to stay at a 3:4 Ratio of Walks to Strikeouts... but one day hes going to dance that line.

Hes on pace to finish with 113 walks but 152Ks.
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:11 PM EDT (#36992) #
I seriously think Hudson will win the GG this year. The trick with winning is being so good that you draw the attention of other teams' media members, fans etc. I believe he's done that this year.
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_6-4-3 - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#36993) #
This is an obscure answer to the question, but in 1893, Hall-of-Famer Amos Rusie started 52 games, walked 218 batters, and struck out 208. The next season he walked 200 and K'd 195.

In 1893, Black Sox manager Kid Gleason started 45 games, walked 187 batters, and struck out 86.

I'll try to find more recent examples, but the closest I got was Scott Erickson in 1999 (34 starts, 106 K's, 99 walks)
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#36994) #
It's actually managers and coaches who vote for the Gold Glove, but they haven't always taken that responsibility too seriously, it would seem.
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_Emerald - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#36995) #
Daniel Cabrera is close to doing it (70 BB, 65 SO)

Shawn Estes (85 BB, 95 SO) is somewhat close.
And Ishii of course.
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_DaveInNYC - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:16 PM EDT (#36996) #
Bravo!

Great catch by Vernon Wells saves a run and nearly doubles off yet another Oakland baserunner!
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_Magpie - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:17 PM EDT (#36997) #
Miller has to tag up on that play.

These Oakland guys haven't improved on their base running since last October, have they?
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:17 PM EDT (#36998) #
It's actually managers and coaches who vote for the Gold Glove, but they haven't always taken that responsibility too seriously, it would seem.


I know, but my point is that if Yankee fans and media are noticing Hudson's defence, then Yankee coaches and managers probably have noticed too.

I mean, it's pretty meaningless for us all to say that Hudson deserves it, because we're biased. However, once fans of other teams start saying it, then you know he's been good.

Right? I'm rambling. :-)
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:18 PM EDT (#36999) #
Almost another DP, and as Magpie points out, the A's blew a cinch run when Miller didn't bother to tag up on the liner to CF.
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_Magpie - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:20 PM EDT (#37000) #
Good time for Batista to get his first K
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:20 PM EDT (#37001) #
No, you're right, Ryan. The staff of teams that only see O-Dog six times will know him better by reputation if he gets a lot of Web Gems.

Clutch K by Miggy to keep them scoreless, although with normal house-league calibre baserunning by the A's, this would be a tie game or worse.
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_Ron - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#37002) #
This is an obscure answer to the question, but in 1893, Hall-of-Famer Amos Rusie started 52 games, walked 218 batters, and struck out 208. The next season he walked 200 and K'd 195.

Now that's going WAY BACK!!!!!
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_Emerald - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#37003) #
Curse that Kotsay! Curses! Terrific contact by GQ
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_6-4-3 - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#37004) #
In 1986, Phil Niekro started 32 games, walked 95 batters and struckout 81 for the Indians. The next season, playing for Cleveland, Atlanta, and the Blue Jays, Niekro came close by starting 25 games, walked 60 and struck out 64.

He's the last and most recent pitcher I can think of that might've accomplished this 'feat'.
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_Magpie - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:26 PM EDT (#37005) #
Mulder has fallen behind the last seven hitters with the first pitch (8 of the last 9)

Make that 8 in a row.
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_Emerald - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:26 PM EDT (#37006) #
RBI double for Vernon Wells, 3-0 Jays
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_DaveInNYC - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:27 PM EDT (#37007) #
Back to back doubles with 2 outs by O-Dog and Vern gets the Jays another run.

The A's are putting Delgado on to get to Rios with 2 outs... MAKE EM PAY LEXI!!!
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_6-4-3 - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:27 PM EDT (#37008) #
italics begone?

Rusie I found by looking up the all-time leaders in single-season walks. Niekro I looked up after Tim Wakefield and Steve Sparks, figuring that a knuckleball pitcher would've done it at some point.
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_Ron - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:31 PM EDT (#37009) #
O-Dog has the best range by a wide margin in MLB.

His range factor is 5.900 while Aaron Miles is 2nd at 5.460. The 2nd closest in the AL is Soriano at 5.240.

But O-Dog is tied for 2nd highest errors commited at 2B in the AL with 12. Of course as we all know errors can be a misleading stat though. You can only get an error if you do something right in the first place.
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_Magpie - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:34 PM EDT (#37010) #
as Magpie points out, the A's blew a cinch run when Miller didn't bother to tag up on the liner to CF.

Credit where credit is due. Fordin was practically screaming about that piece of baserunning. Weren't ya, Spence!:-)
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:34 PM EDT (#37011) #
Back to back doubles with 2 outs

Yes, there's been a lot of good 2-out hitting lately, which figures, because there was so little at times earlier this year. Slumps, for individuals or teams, rarely last forever.

Remember all those lineups with Reed Johnson batting third (or even fourth)? No offence to Sparky, one of my favourite players, but I like the current guys better.
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:35 PM EDT (#37012) #
Hopefully the voters don't put a lot of stock in errors. The only reason Hudson has so many errors is because he gets to everything.
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#37013) #
Boy, I hope the fans are booing the ump on that one and not the pitcher. Tremendous pitch, terrible call.
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_Scott Levy - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:37 PM EDT (#37014) #
(BB)Batista at it again.

I love the 0 ER part, but 5 walks to 1 strike out? His 2004 season has luck written all over it.

Good to see Quiroz in the game. Can't wait for Crozier and Adams.
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:39 PM EDT (#37015) #
Did you even see the 3-2 to Byrnes, Scott? Knee-high fastball, right on the black, Inning over, but Barrett choked on the call.
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:44 PM EDT (#37016) #
Cash, the unlikely hero!
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_Emerald - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#37017) #
Wha? Huh? Cash? Cash! Money!
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_CaramonLS - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#37018) #
Wow "K"evin "K"ash actually gets a hit and its a homerun!
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_Magpie - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#37019) #
Saturday September 4, 2004. 5:44 PM. Toronto Canada.

For those of you wanted to make note of the time and place.
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_DaveInNYC - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#37020) #
You are now entering the Twilight Zone...

A dimension where EVEN Kevin Cash can hit a hanger out of the yard!

First career hit for Quiroz!

SAVE THAT BALL!
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_RhyZa - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#37021) #
first KC, now GQ. nice.
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_R Billie - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#37022) #
You go GQ
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#37023) #
Congratulations to GQ for the first of many. He deserved the double earlier but Kotsay made a fine catch.
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_CaramonLS - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:49 PM EDT (#37024) #
The Cash hit, or Quiroz's first hit...

I'm not sure which is more of a special occasion.
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#37025) #
Hey now, ease off of Cash. It's his 4th dinger of the year. More than Woodward and Gomez combined.
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_Scott Levy - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:51 PM EDT (#37026) #
Kevin Cash with a home run? Off Mark Mulder? Wow.

Congrats to GQ!

Walk #6 for Batista. (sigh)
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_Ron - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:56 PM EDT (#37027) #
We all know it's been the Season From Hell so I thought I would remind you of the Jays batting line-up earlier this season on June 23rd.

1. Menechino
2. Clark
3. Johnson
4. Hinske
5. Zaun
6. Hudson
7. Gomez
8. Rios
9. Berg

That's a lineup a little league team wouldn't fear.
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_Rory - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 05:58 PM EDT (#37028) #
its great to see q in the bigs and geting his first hit.Sorry i said yesterday that peterson was called up to the bigs.
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:01 PM EDT (#37029) #
That's funny, Ron -- you picked my birthday. Those were trying times.

Regardless of the outcome this afternoon, it's gratifying to see the Jays take on Hudson and Mulder in consecutive games, in the middle of a pennant race, and appear very evenly matched.

This still isn't the team we thought we'd see this year, with Cat, Crash and especially Doc still missing, but it's pretty obvious that they are competitive. It's equally clear that the rookies are special; Bush already looks like a crafty veteran and when Rios comes into his man-strength, he'll be scary.
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_Rory - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:03 PM EDT (#37030) #
why isnt Gustavo Chacin up for minor league player of the yea.He is 16-2 in aa and 2-0 in aaa.He is not even on the list in the new BA but he deserves his props.
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_Scott Levy - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:05 PM EDT (#37031) #
As much as I rag on him, another quality 7 innings for Batista.
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:06 PM EDT (#37032) #
June 23rd.

I do believe they won that game. ;)
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_Rory - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:09 PM EDT (#37033) #
hear comes the pen know i am getting nervous.If the game stays in a save sit i want to see fraor.
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:09 PM EDT (#37034) #
They always win on my birthday. Weren't you the one who discovered that, Ryan?
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_Emerald - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:12 PM EDT (#37035) #
Uh-oh.
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_Magpie - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:12 PM EDT (#37036) #
If you look at Batista's line - 7 IPT and 6 BB, you will assume, and with reason, that he was wild as hell.

If you saw the game, you know he wasn't.

But he's having trouble getting out of the at bat. Getting it over with, as Maddux likes to say. Whatever Batista uses to strike hitters out isn't getting the job done. The at bats keep going, and eventually he's losing some to BB. He threw 104 pitches, 58 strikes. That does not normally suggest 6 walks in 7 innings.
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:13 PM EDT (#37037) #
Yep, that's how I remembered that they won. :)

I realized Vinnie has been struggling, but I didn't realize his ERA has ballooned to 4.70. Ouch.

Looking at it a little more closely, he has given up 14 runs in his last 13 innings. I believe in the law of averages.
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_Rory - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:13 PM EDT (#37038) #
get vinnie out
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:16 PM EDT (#37039) #
As much as I admire John Gibbons and the way he stands behind his players, which is great for them in the long run, I wish he would make quicker moves when it's obvious a reliever doesn't have his best stuff. Whether Chulk has just lost his confidence or whether he's battling a physical problem we know nothing about, he is simply not effective any more. He should be used in blowouts until he is sharp in a few consecutive appearances.
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_Rory - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#37041) #
He better not blow the lead
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_Emerald - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:19 PM EDT (#37042) #
Here comes Frasor. It makes one wonder, has the league figured out Vinnie or is he just in a bad spell? I would guess a combination of the two.
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:22 PM EDT (#37043) #
Haha! German gets Cashed in.
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:22 PM EDT (#37044) #
Great curve by Frasor on 0-2, and Delgado almost sold it as a fair ball. It didn't matter, as Cash threw a laser to throw out the speedy German trying to steal.
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_Emerald - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:23 PM EDT (#37045) #
Marvelous throw by Cash. He's having quite a fine game now. (Since the 2 strikeouts)
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_Magpie - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:23 PM EDT (#37046) #
Once a catcher, always a catcher....

Cute watching Delgado trying to frame the ground ball and get it called fair by the 1B umpire.

Who wasn't buying.
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:24 PM EDT (#37047) #
Assuming the Jays score no runs...

Do you keep Frasor in or do go back to Speier in the 9th?
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:25 PM EDT (#37048) #
Kevin was just playing possum with those strikeouts, getting Mulder overconfident so he'd throw the 2-0 cookie when it mattered. :)
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_RhyZa - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:25 PM EDT (#37049) #
And that is why I cringe when I hear people say they want to give up on Ca$h already.. I'm a firm believer that it's much easier to teach a catcher to have some semblance of being an avg hitter (which isn't that lofty a goal when it comes from the catcher position) than trying to make someone a good thrower which is something that can't be taught. Its either you have it or you don't... Cash is still young and is very much a work in progress, he can still turn the corner with the bat to be a very valuable backup catcher, or a possible starter for someone else.
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:26 PM EDT (#37050) #
Spy has pitched three straight days. Even if he says he's available, I don't even warm him up. It's Frasor's game.
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:28 PM EDT (#37051) #
Hopefully the Jays hold onto this one, tomorrow's game is going to be very difficult to win with Glynn going against Harden.
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_Rory - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:28 PM EDT (#37052) #
The last 2 years vinnie was a reliver in the minors .We got to go back to 2001 the last time he was a reliver.I think he has a dead arm his arm is not use to going 2 -4 days a week.I think in the beginning of the year he was pitching great because the innings were not getting up know he almost has pitched 50innings as a relif.
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_Rory - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:30 PM EDT (#37053) #
This has to be frasor game!
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_Emerald - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#37054) #
PLUNK! I am now officialy worried. Let's see Jason get out of this.
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_Lefty - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#37055) #
Well it might be an idea to get on the bullpen phone now. Leadoff double and a wild pitch hitting Crosby. Runners now second and third advancing on the sac bunt. To late to call Speier now I guess.
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#37056) #
Aw, damn it.

I was really hoping Jays-Killer Mark McLemore wouldn't get an opportunity.
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_Rory - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#37057) #
I can not take this bullpen ! it is driving me nuts
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#37058) #
They may call that a wild pitch, but it was a passed ball. Ugly.
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_DaveInNYC - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#37059) #
WORST. CROSS UP. EVER
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_Loveshack - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:37 PM EDT (#37060) #
oh of all the.....
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_DaveInNYC - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:37 PM EDT (#37061) #
What's wrong with Cash? That's about the 5th ball he's dropped today and he's let 2 balls get passed him.
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_Emerald - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:37 PM EDT (#37062) #
Oh GEEZ. That's got to be one of the worst ways to blow a lead. Cash seems to be having trouble with his glove, not his arm, but his glove.
Let's see some damage control.
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:37 PM EDT (#37063) #
Aw crap, a run scores and the Jays-Killer is still up.
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_DaveInNYC - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#37064) #
WORST. BULLPEN. EVER
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:40 PM EDT (#37065) #
Argh. Frasor totally got squeezed on that 1-2 pitch. His next pitch was nice too, but McLemore fouled it off.

Now McLemore hits it deep for a sac fly. Could have been worse, I guess.
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_Lefty - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:40 PM EDT (#37066) #
It isn't the worst pen ever, last years was.
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#37067) #
Even if that was a cross-up, Kevin's got to go to his knees there and block it. Frasor's expression and body language don't look good right now.
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_DaveInNYC - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#37068) #
Today's ugly performance pushes Chulk's ERA to 5.01

Instead of managing Frasor in "tight situations" how about Gibbons monitors Chulk?
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#37069) #
WORST. BULLPEN. EVER

I dunno, last year's pen was pretty bad...

I don't really know which is worse, but this years pen at least netted John Hattig.
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_Lefty - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#37070) #
I agree, its Frasor's game.
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_Rory - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#37071) #
Thanks frasor great job.Batista pitching goes to waste. i think i have more confidence in menechino than any one else in the pen
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_DaveInNYC - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#37072) #
Don't pin it on Frasor, it's not called for. He pitched relatively well, got squeezed on a 1-2 pitch, and had his catcher spaz out on him and let a run score.

I'd be more inclined to pin on Chulk if anything.

Still a half inning left though.
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_Ron - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#37073) #
Jays pitchers have 9 BB's now.

I would pay money for Sportsnet to put a camera on JP and mic him up. Of course it would be a HBO type Sportsnet since I know JP would be cussing a lot.
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#37074) #
Think we'll see Crozier pinch hit for Johnson this time? :-)
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#37075) #
Yeah, whatever, Rory. Thanks for your insight.
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:45 PM EDT (#37076) #
Frasor's still getting squezed. That was right over the middle and at the knees.
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_Rory - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:46 PM EDT (#37077) #
Relax there coach i was joking
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:46 PM EDT (#37078) #
Think we'll see Crozier pinch hit for Johnson this time? :-)

Assuming Dotel is in, I think we'll see Crozier hit for Quiroz and Gross for Johnson. Of course, they're one pitch away from it not being a SV situation :(
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_Emerald - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:46 PM EDT (#37079) #
Oh dear. I would let Frasor face one more batter, if he doesn't get him out, File might have to come in.

I agree, this isn't entirely Frasor's fault.
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:47 PM EDT (#37080) #
Chulk did way more damage than Frasor, and the one-hopper through Cash's 5-hole didn't help.
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_DaveInNYC - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:48 PM EDT (#37081) #
Now this is Gibbons fault DEFINITELY.

Why is Frasor still out there? Yes, he got shafted on the pitch to Durazo but the fact remains that he's still been wild the last few hitters. You have File warming who can atleast hit the plate when he's on.

Hopefully he can get Byrnes.
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_DaveInNYC - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:48 PM EDT (#37082) #
WORST. MISREAD. EVER
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_CaramonLS - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:49 PM EDT (#37083) #
I'm wondering... (being totlly serious here too) if Cash needs his eyes checked.

Not sure if any of you guys are Familiar with the story in Hockey about Dwanye Roloson, who was released by the Calgary Flames, then was found to have some extreme vision problems, got them corrected and went on to have a very very successful career with the Wild up to this point.

With all of the dropped balls, passed balls and the ones that seem to just flicker in and out of his glove.

This would also account for his attrocious batting average.... Maybe this is something the Jays should really look into.
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_Emerald - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:49 PM EDT (#37084) #
Johnson must have misread that. It's File time.

Ouch. Ouch. Ouch.
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:51 PM EDT (#37085) #
That's not an easy ball to catch, and if you take one step in, you're screwed. Reed took two.
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_Ron - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:51 PM EDT (#37086) #
That was badly misread by Johnson. He was running in the whole time and then the ball just flew by his head resulting 3 runs coming in.
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_WORST BULLPEN.. - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:52 PM EDT (#37087) #
Check out FRasor/Chulk's pre/post AS splits. OUCH lol. can you say... fluke?!?!?!
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_DaveInNYC - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:52 PM EDT (#37088) #
Yes that ball was smoked by Byrnes, but Reed broke in and it costs the Jays dearly sadly.

What makes it worse is how he just jogged dejectively to go pick it up.
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:53 PM EDT (#37089) #
Hopefully we see Crozier anyways.

I've seen Quiroz and Adams before. I want to see Crozier, dammit! :)
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_Rory - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:53 PM EDT (#37090) #
frasor did get in this mess 5-4 ninth inning close the door.In aug frasor era is 9.26 and over 5 in the second half. gibby is not going out there pitching.Yes he was out there to long but he has no confidence in anybody
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_Emerald - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:54 PM EDT (#37091) #
THANK you Bob. Jays trail 9-5. Hey, it's never over, right?

I suspect Macha might bring Dotel in anyway, he is in a pennant race and shouldn't take any chances.
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:54 PM EDT (#37092) #
Keep in mind that this will all go on Frasor's "permanent record" -- umpy squeezed him for a walk, his catcher whiffed on one, and his left fielder made a 3-run error that isn't on the score sheet. No wonder he looked so miserable.
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_Lefty - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:54 PM EDT (#37093) #
Thanks frasor great job.Batista pitching goes to waste. i think i have more confidence in menechino than any one else in the pen

Rory, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it you screaming last week when Gibbons brought in Speier for the save? Said something like Frasor's our closer of the future or something?
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_Braby - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:54 PM EDT (#37094) #
such a fluke, how do the Jays not see this? and they just keep puting them out there to fail. Why not put File in when it was 2nd and 3rd w/ none out? Why not atleast put him in w/ Fraser loaded the bases, at some point you have to realize Fraser got mad lucky in the first half. He walks everybody and leaves his fastballs up. I said right before the inning started "FRASER KEEP THE BALL DOWN" and BOOM double to left...another game wasted...
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_RhyZa - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:55 PM EDT (#37095) #
Has Reeder settled into a 4th OF or platooner at best? Or is it still way too early to assess that.. don't get me wrong, I love his attitude and he could be a valuable role player on a contending team, but production wise I'm not so sure we can afford the luxury of trotting him out there occupying what should usually be a power spot in the lineup. Then again, if financial restrictions are the biggest factor in deciding his role (can't afford to improve upon that position, without taking away from another) then we can do a lot worse than him I guess.
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_Ron - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:55 PM EDT (#37096) #
I wonder how the Jays are going to sell season tickets for next season?

I imagine they will even have a tougher time if Delgado isn't resigned which looks unlikely.

I believe last years 86 win season didn't have much of an impact on season ticket sales.

Perhaps some buy 5 games get 2 free offers. At least with a brutal club, the fans should get some nice ticket deals next season.
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_Emerald - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:56 PM EDT (#37097) #
GQ strikes again!

(I hope I get to say this several more times)
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_honestly.... - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:57 PM EDT (#37098) #
Frasor and Chulk are flukes. Good pitchers bail out their teamates. And generally the Jays have had solid D all season.
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_Emerald - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:57 PM EDT (#37099) #
Alright, maybe Crozier can get HIS first hit.
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_Magpie - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:58 PM EDT (#37100) #
this isn't entirely Frasor's fault.

Well, perhaps. 1 IP, 3 hits, 2 BB, 1 HBP.

His catcher messed up a pitch, and his LF broke in a line drive to the wall.

But guys.... Frasor was as bad Chulk.
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:58 PM EDT (#37101) #
Yay Crozier.

Should have came in for Johnson though, not Hudson.
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_Rory - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 06:58 PM EDT (#37102) #
lefty-- you are right i am just getting so fustrated.I still think frasor is the future closer.i am just getting fustrted with this whole bullpen
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:00 PM EDT (#37103) #
Has Reeder settled into a 4th OF or platooner at best?

That's entirely up to Gabe Gross. If they are the LF platoon next year, which I'm expecting, Gabe gets the lion's share of AB. If he produces, Reed's role will be reduced.
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_Braby - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:01 PM EDT (#37104) #
Does Quiroz get the start at C tommorrow? 2 hits today, and obviously Cash didnt exactly look great out there today. His arms is great, well is right arm, but what about his left? Or the rest of his body? He just hasn't blocked balls well all year, and does it bug anybody else when he doesn't ever let go of his mask?
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_BRUTAL BULLPEN - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:01 PM EDT (#37105) #
Anyone know what Light-on-fire + Chulk + Frasor + Maurer/Peterson's stats are post All-Star? I'm thinking about 8-10 losses and an ERA over 7. LOL and that doesn't include inherited runners scored
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_Lefty - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:01 PM EDT (#37106) #
Yes, I thought so. The frustration is apparent. Take it easy though. Its a matter of credibility. And thats a nasty bruise on your arse falling off his bandwagon.;-)
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_RhyZa - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:02 PM EDT (#37107) #
Nice pitch on the Croz.. but he does 'look' competent up there.

Speaking of looks, GQ and Russ Adams do as well from what I've seen, for whatever that's worth.. and this might sound downright ridiculous but I think those who never watched Adams in the minors just read the name Russ + Adams and have some preconceived notions about what type of player that is (which could explain some of the premature criticism of him).. it reeks of util. infielder at best, don't it? ; )
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_Emerald - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:02 PM EDT (#37108) #
Ecch. Now to forget the Jays' troubles with a hockey game.

It is very frustrating. Frasor bails out Chulk in the 8th and promptly surrenders five runs in the 9th. After a few runs he really looked like he rather be anywhere else in the world but on that mound.
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_Braby - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#37109) #
Oh and I understand how they should put the best line up to be fair to teams in the race, BUT all Russ Adams had to do was go 0 for 4 to be as good as Woody, let Adams play every inning for the rest of the season, he's the SS your drafted, woody should be a back up at best.
[ Reply to This ]
_Ron - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#37110) #
Has Reeder settled into a 4th OF or platooner at best? Or is it still way too early to assess that.. don't get me wrong, I love his attitude and he could be a valuable role player on a contending team, but production wise I'm not so sure we can afford the luxury of trotting him out there occupying what should usually be a power spot in the lineup. Then again, if financial restrictions are the biggest factor in deciding his role (can't afford to improve upon that position, without taking away from another) then we can do a lot worse than him I guess.

At this point Johnson is still my starting LF for next season. Gross hasn't given me a good reason why JP/manager should just hand over the job to him.

I might be the only person in DA Box to say this but I'm a little bit concerned about Rios's lack of HR power. He only has 1 HR in 342 AB's.

He didn't show HR power in AAA and even in his MVP season in AA he only hit 11 dingers.
[ Reply to This ]
_Rory - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:04 PM EDT (#37111) #
I like reed as my 4 th OF.He can play every OF pos and also DH .Gross has to much potential and rois is showing he is going to be a 5 tool player.And maybe reed can also play a little 1B next year.
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_Selected Bullpe - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:10 PM EDT (#37112) #
Douglass (includes 3 starts) + Frederick + Frasor + Chulk + Lightenberg stats since AS break:

113.2 137 91 67 91 (1 win, 14 losses, 7.21 ERA, 1.79 WHIP)

I don't think it gets any worse than that!
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_RhyZa - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:11 PM EDT (#37113) #
Rios will get it, there might be some slight tinkering necessary in the future with his swing to bring out the power but I wouldn't mess with it just yet.. for now just patiently wait for his natural power to develop.

As for Cash, I guess I'm a backer of his, maybe its the little-kid-please-take-me-lightly look he has going for him but I find it strange that a player can be such an amazing thrower but simply average (at best) as a blocker/defensive catcher.. I would think they would be at least somewhat correlated.

Anyway, go Canada.. this game should be good with the mega skillful Russians, and the goalie who looks like he could be a good one as well.
[ Reply to This ]
_Rory - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:11 PM EDT (#37114) #
i think you will see the power in rios a lot of players do not show power untill they hit the bigs.Gross has not shown much power in the minors either but i think both are going to hit 25-30 hrs a year.Lefty i am not falling off the bang wagon but if a guy is stuggling he should know about it.Lets have some creditabilty when a player does not perform.Lets not sugar coat anything i belive in frasor but he did not perform tonight and he should know that
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_R Billie - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:12 PM EDT (#37115) #
That was just ugly to watch. I don't know why both Chulk and Frasor were out there today in situations that didn't warrant them. In Frasor's case he has thrown a lot lately and not particularly well. And that inning just went on and on with Frasor running on fumes and yet no hook coming until the decisive blow was delivered. Not only did the tying and go ahead runs get on base and score but some how the bases got loaded again and then cleared after that. I don't know what Gibbons was hoping to accomplish by letting Jason twist in the wind like that. Today I would have had File, Douglass, and whoever else out there today and let Frasor rest. At some point you have to decide he isn't available.

That wasn't an easy play for Johnson but his defence the last two days hasn't done anything to convince me he's deserving of everyday playing time. That play by Cash was just plain lazy and I'm quickly getting tired of seeing him behind the plate despite his cannon arm. Poor game calling, poor pitch framing, and then he isn't razor sharp in important game situations with runners on base.

It doesn't look good for the Jays to climb out of the basement this season.
[ Reply to This ]
_Lefty - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:13 PM EDT (#37116) #
At this point Johnson is still my starting LF for next season. Gross hasn't given me a good reason why JP/manager should just hand over the job to him.

I might be the only person in DA Box to say this but I'm a little bit concerned about Rios's lack of HR power. He only has 1 HR in 342 AB's.

Ron I think its valid to say the above as a thought or an observation but I'll go on record as saying i disagree with both your points.

With regular playing time next year. Gross oughta pop 15-20 homers and provide excellent defense with a plus,plus arm. Rio's might need another year to hit the 15-25 homer mark perhaps but I wouldn't discount the possibility he does crack 20 next season. But frankly I don't give a fiddlers fart if he only hits 10. This guy is a pure hitter and these don't grow on trees.

But then I've always been a huge Garret Anderson fan. Even when it fashionable to knock him.
[ Reply to This ]
_R Billie - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:16 PM EDT (#37117) #
I think Gross is as good of a defensive player as Johnson today and he's certainly a much more patient hitter with higher upside. There is no reason that I DON'T give Gross regular playing time or at least use him in a strict platoon with Johnson.
[ Reply to This ]
_Lefty - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:18 PM EDT (#37118) #
RBillie: Agreed.
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_Rory - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:19 PM EDT (#37119) #
I give gross the job and just maybe there is some trade value for reed maybe a strong bullpen guy in return
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_Ron - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:20 PM EDT (#37120) #
What concerns me is that the Jays play moneyball style. Get guys on base and hit the long ball.

With Delgado bolting and JP saying spending 10 mil on one player would blow the budget I don't know if he's going to be able to land at least one proven 30+ HR guy through FA.

Don't get me wrong Rios is a solid player and is still a rookie but he's shown me nothing so far through AA, AAA, and the Majors to indicate he will be a HR power bat like what people seem to say.

I don't see any Jay outside of Delgado (if he stays) being able to hit 30 HR's next season.
[ Reply to This ]
_bmy - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:20 PM EDT (#37121) #
#2364167 Posted 09/04/2004 07:10 PM by Selected Bullpen stats post AS break...:

Douglass (includes 3 starts) + Frederick + Frasor + Chulk + Lightenberg stats since AS break:

113.2 137 91 67 91 (1 win, 14 losses, 7.21 ERA, 1.79 WHIP)

Holy CRAP that is bad.
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_Lefty - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:30 PM EDT (#37122) #
Ron, your concerns are frighteningly valid. Worse I haven't yet heard how this is going to be addressed.
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_CaramonLS - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:34 PM EDT (#37123) #
You forgot to add Maurer's stats in there.

1.0 IP, 6 H, 8 ER, 1 HR, 5 BB, 1 K, 54.13 ERA.
[ Reply to This ]
_Ron - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:43 PM EDT (#37124) #
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?Name=GHFC
Upon further reserch I've discovered Rios has never shown HR power at any level after being drafted.

At rookie level he had 0 HR's in 234 Ab's.
At 4 levels of Single A he combined to only hit 6 HR's in 1216 AB's.

His biggest power was at AA where he hit 11 Dingers in 514 AB's.

I have very little reason to believe he will be a 25-35 HR guy in the majors.
[ Reply to This ]
_CaramonLS - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:50 PM EDT (#37125) #
I think a lot of people think that Rios is going to start getting power numbers because he has the build to take it out of the yard... hes huge!

Thats about the only reason I can see.
[ Reply to This ]
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#37126) #
Ron, he's 6'5" and under 200 pounds. That's why everyone's optimistic. How many times has Rios hit a double off the wall this year? With 10-15 more meat on him, those all go over the wall.
[ Reply to This ]
Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#37127) #
bmy, there's really no need to quote yourself. Pick a handle, and say what you have to say. Next time there are posts from the same PC in five different names, expect them all to be deleted.

I don't see any Jay outside of Delgado (if he stays) being able to hit 30 HR's next season.

How about Wells? I'm not saying 30 is guaranteed or anything, but he'll reach that more often than not when he's healthy. It's just as effective to have several guys in the 10-20 range and no "black holes" in the batting order. This season has been such an aberration; Cat had zero pop, Rios can only improve (the question is how much and how soon, not if) and they will be bringing in another bat or two. That won't be a Murderer's Row, but if they have nine guys who can get on base consistently, and everyone has even a little power, they'll score enough runs to compete.

Ron, you overlooked winter ball, where Rios mashed 12 HR in 155 AB, giving him 23 for the 2003 season. Most guys with his eye and bat speed continue to develop power as they mature, and while I don't have any data at my fingertips, that's even moreso for kids with his body type.
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_Ron - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 07:57 PM EDT (#37128) #
Ron, he's 6'5" and under 200 pounds. That's why everyone's optimistic. How many times has Rios hit a double off the wall this year? With 10-15 more meat on him, those all go over the wall.

Just because you add weight doesn't mean you're going to start hitting dingers.

Isn't that like saying in Spring Training before this season Hinske would swip more bags because he lost 20 pds in the off-season?

I wonder if there is a study out there somewhere that shows someone similar in size and numbers in the minors to Rios that went on to play in the big leagues to get a look at the HR totals.
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Craig B - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 08:01 PM EDT (#37129) #
Ron, Rios led the Puerto Rican Winter League in home runs and RBI this past winter, one of the main reasons he continued to climb prospect charts between the end of the AA season and the beginning of spring.

At any rate, Rios has prodigious power off the bat - he hits the ball as hard as many big-name power prospects. But he hits it on the ground, so the home runs haven't come. When and if he chooses to alter his approach to hit more balls in the air, he'll start hitting more home runs and start losing some batting average.

In batting practice, Rios can pound them into the seats with the best of them, and can pull it to boot (if you watch him regularly, you know he gets most of his hits the other way). That's what he was doing in winter ball, apparently - pulling it into the seats. He kept that up in AAA this spring and it wasn't successful, so he went back to being an extreme other-way hitter. For now, it's working for him as he learns the pitchers in the American League.

Rios isn't going to hit 30 home runs next year - most players' power continues to grow through about age 30.
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_Ron - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 08:09 PM EDT (#37130) #
I understand what Coach and Craig B is saying.

I'm still going out on a limb and predicting Rios will never hit 25 HR's in a season in his MLB career.

Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't bat speed more of an indication of hitting HR's than how much weight the person gains?

I remember listening to the Kevin Wheeler Show on Sporting News Radio when there was the big roid talk and people mentioning players like Sosa, Bonds, Giambi, and Boone gainging weight and hitting more HR's. Majority of the callers said it was due to the weight/muscle gain from roids that helped them hit more dingers while Wheeler (who played NCAA baseball) said in terms of hitting HR's roids wouldn't make that big of a difference and a bigger factor is bat speed which roids doens't effect.
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_CaramonLS - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 08:13 PM EDT (#37131) #
Ron, How Strong you are directly affects how fast you can swing a bat.
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_DaveInNYC - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 08:33 PM EDT (#37132) #
That may be true Caramon but I think what Ron is saying is that the weight of a player doesn't really have much to do with hitting home runs. You look at a guy like Rocco Baldelli and he's almost as skinny as Rios is but he swings one of the quickest bats I've ever seen. Either he is just naturally strong or his bat speed helps give the ball an extra added push. Good debate though.
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_Braby - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 08:39 PM EDT (#37133) #
Think A Rod and Griffey, both skinny guys w/ quick bats. Rios has the exact same body type as A Rod. Rios has shown he has double and triple power, he will hit his share of HR's, and if not, he'll hit over .300 and lead the league in doubles, I'll take it.
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_Ryan Lind - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 08:46 PM EDT (#37134) #
Whatever...A-Rod is still 15 pounds heavier than Rios and Griffey is 10 pounds heavier. They're both two inches shorter as well.
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Coach - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 09:00 PM EDT (#37135) #
A-Rod is still 15 pounds heavier than Rios and Griffey is 10 pounds heavier.

Most importantly, they are quite a bit older. Unless they're jockeys or gymnasts, professional athletes aren't "fully grown" at 23. Not even close.

In 1986, this skinny 22-year-old kid hit 10 HR at AA and 13 at AAA, almost identical numbers to Rios' 11 in AA and 12 in Puerto Rico at the same age in 2003:



He would grow into his man-strength rather impressively, with one of the greatest rookie seasons in the history of the major leagues. (Scroll down for picture)

Now, I'm not suggesting that Rios will ever hit 70 in a season, or that he should start chugging the creatine shakes. I just thought you might enjoy visual evidence of how a 6'5" guy's body can fill out in his middle and late 20's, with a corresponding power surge.
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_Magpie - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 09:01 PM EDT (#37136) #
As a 21 year old rookie, Dave Winfield hit .277 but with just 3 HR in 141 AB.

Rocco Baldelli now has over 1000 ML at bats and just 21 HR.

Personally, I expect Rios to turn out more like Baldelli than Winfield. Winfield swung very, very hard. Ron may be right, he may never hit 25 HRs in a season. If he does enough other things well, it doesn't matter.

I thought Cash was fighting the ball today. Like a goalie having a bad night. I don't think he was being crossed up, because he didn't go out to talk to his pitcher and straighten things out.

I think he's probably having some problems with his confidence as well.

Chulk and Frasor were awful, but what can you do? Speier wasn't available. Ligtenberg wasn't available. Douglass and File are normally your long guys. This was Chulk and Frasor's game. They just couldn't get it done.

Crap happens.
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_Ron - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#37137) #
Damm it's weird to see McGwire so small.

I remember before he retired his arms were freakin huge.

Amazing what roids.... errr... creatine can do:)
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_Dan - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 09:54 PM EDT (#37138) #
It's obviously hard to tell if Rios will develope the man strength to hit the hr's say he will. All i know is what i see and when he hits the ball...he hits it hard. Some of the singles that he hits up the middle are just ripped. He clearly will be a pure pure hitter kind of like Manny Ramirez except different body type. It seems to me that Rios could be a mlb batting champ in a few years. I think he will end up being a 20hr guy which is great because im sure we will have Wells hitting behind him for the power.
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_Braby21 - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 10:14 PM EDT (#37139) #
And hopefully Los behind Wells.

Anyone think that Spier shouldn't have pitched in yesterdays game while down 1. Why not save your closer for such situations as UP by 1 in the 9th (kinda like today!)

I know im second guessing, but im really not. So you don't over use your "closer" you should only use him for save situations. Especially playing the A's, knowing that almost all of the games they win, or lose, are 1 run games, so you got to figure you're going to need him once in this series. Not to mention the Jays aren't going to the playoffs, so why do you need to keep the game w/o 1 run going into the bottom of the 9th so bad? Doesn't make much sense to me.
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Mike Green - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 10:43 PM EDT (#37140) #
FWIW, Rios last year also homered a whole bunch during the AA playoffs and in the Olympic qualifying tournament. He ended up with over 30 homers in roughly 700 ABs.

Here's a right-fielder who just might be a hero of Alex. He sure looked taller than 5'11' to me, and by the end of his career, I'm quite sure that he was closer to 205 than to the 175 he's listed at. His career path (offensively) is a nice target for Alex.
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robertdudek - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 11:00 PM EDT (#37141) #
Strength has an enormous effect on hitting homeruns.

Distance hitting is a function of bat speed and barrel head weight.

Let's say you can increase the strength of your wrists, forearms, triceps and whatever else is used to increase the amount of force applied to the bat. If you can maintain the same bat speed and use a bat that's one ounce heavier, you are going to increase the distance of your hits.

The torque of you hips and your leg drive also infuence the force you apply to a bat.
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Craig B - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 11:10 PM EDT (#37142) #
One guy, a fellow rightfielder, that I think is a good (if exalted) comparison for Rios is Bobby Abreu. Abreu also doesn't hit 30 homers a year (though he did it once), he hits about 20, and he's still one of the 30 best players in the game.

It will take a lot for Rios to reach that level, but it's always a hope.
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_Lefty - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 11:16 PM EDT (#37143) #
In his first exposure Rios has exceeded my expectations. We've all seen alot of hyped rookies come into the league and the ajustment is rarely an easy one. This kid just looks fluid and has lightening hands.
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Thomas - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 11:25 PM EDT (#37144) #
If anyone here is a soccer fan, Canada's World Cup qualifying campaign took a bit hit today as they drew against a tough Honduran team 1-1 in Edmonton. Combined with a loss to Guatemala thanks to some sloppy play in the opener and Canada now has 1 pt from 2 home matches. Things are not looking good.

What is criminal about today's loss is the refereeing involved. After Jason deVos scored on a header in the 82nd minute to make it 1-0 Canada, Canada promptly gave the lead back a few minutes later. The referee made a very debatable call to give Honduras a penalty after a brutal backpass by the Canadian defender. Contact between the Honduran forward running in on goal with the ball and Mark Watson, running from the other wing to help out, was minimal at best, but the Honduran forward fell over and drew the penalty. They scored on the penalty to make it 1-1.

An even worse call was made a few minutes later on a loose ball in the Honduran area. A Canadian forward and a Honduran defender both went for a bouncing ball and there was tiny contact between their feet, after the Canadian forward knocked the ball over to another Canadian on the wing. Olivier Occean picked up the pass, turned and shot it by the Honduran keeper to make it 2-1, but it was whistled back as the Honduran defender fell to the ground and grasped his foot. It absolutely should not have been a foul.

It was a terrible refeering performance by the Mexican referee and the Honduran team was very very quick to the ground. As Craig Forrest stated this referee could have cost Canada any shot they had at the World Cup, and it's absolutely criminal.
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Thomas - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 11:27 PM EDT (#37145) #
Anyhow, it looked like both of the "wild pitches" could easily have been called passed balls, especially the one thrown by Jason Frasor. That's the impression I got from the game, and it seems true reading the game thread. The homer was nice, but if Cash starts developing lazy habits and only throws his glove at balls in the dirt, he's quickly diminishing what value he has left.
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_Lefty - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 11:33 PM EDT (#37146) #
Thomas: I was at the Canada v Guatamala game and I can tell you there were very questionable calls made in that one.

The game tonite? That was blatant cheating by the ref. Canada should file a protest with FIFA. My blood is still boiling.

I'll be going to the Canada Costa Rica game in October, though I suspect we will be out of it by then.

On the bright side I think the future of Canadian soccer is looking much better.
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_Caino - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 11:49 PM EDT (#37147) #
I think either Sparky or Rios will sit tomorrow vs. Harden and Crozier will get his first start. But if he doesn't, I've just guessed wrong

- U think?
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Thomas - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 11:53 PM EDT (#37148) #
I don't know if a protest will get them anywhere. I doubt it will do anything, but I don't think anyone in the stadium besides the ref thought that last call was a foul. Even the Hondurans knew they got away with one. My blood is still boiling, too.

The "we lost because of the referee" excuse is one of the lamest in the book, but it actually applies in this case.
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_Lefty - Saturday, September 04 2004 @ 11:56 PM EDT (#37149) #
When you have a biased referee, that needs to be protested. Refs ought to be fired if they are judged to be corrupt. That might end some of the B.S. so often seen in football. You cheat, your jobs on the line.
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_Rob - Sunday, September 05 2004 @ 12:11 AM EDT (#37150) #
That game was not fun to sit through. Had seats up in the 500 level, and watched the Frasor collapse. I thought he got squeezed on three or four calls in the ninth, but I was on an angle, so it was hard to tell. Anyone know?

Coach: Was I seeing things, or were you at the game today, behind home plate in what I assume was a press box? You posted here during the game, so you must have had a laptop...am I going nuts here? If it wasn't you, it must be "Ken Williamson," because he looked exactly like you -- or like the pictures of you I have seen, at least...

One last thing: Anyone else see the Jeopardy Guy before he was announced at the game? I did. :)
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Thomas - Sunday, September 05 2004 @ 01:01 AM EDT (#37151) #
Ken Jennings is one of the best ceremonial first pitch throwers the Jays have recruited in a long time. Although, apparently if you have incredible brains you don't get blessed with an incredible throwing arm.
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_benum - Sunday, September 05 2004 @ 04:27 AM EDT (#37152) #
Regarding the (we all pray) Clemente comparison above by Mike Green...

Clemente at age 23 (his third year in the Bigs)
.289 .327 .408 in 519 At Bats (after already >1400 AB's in MLB)

Rios at age 23 (first year in the Bigs)
.295 .338 .409 in 342 At Bats (so far)

I think his upside is a Clemente-like player. High average, good extra-bases, not alot of walks. If the walks do come...lower average but better extra-bases. Either way, he can be a good one.

I think a right-handed Cat with better defense is his 'average' outcome (i.e. not worst or best case scenario)

Great call Mr. Green.
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_#2JBrumfield - Sunday, September 05 2004 @ 09:37 AM EDT (#37153) #
Ken Jennings is one of the best ceremonial first pitch throwers the Jays have recruited in a long time. Although, apparently if you have incredible brains you don't get blessed with an incredible throwing arm.

It was an awful pitch but Ace has to do a better job making sure that doesn't get to the backstop. He's got to get some elevation out there, give up the body on it if you have to, no excuses! :)
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