Ay! Arriba y arriba...

Is it from "La Bamba"?

/zero knowledge of Spanish

Gomez is starting again at SS. Unless there's an injury I haven't heard about, the Woodward to get more playing time bandwagon lasted about 4 games. I'm not sure that's a bad thing but it is odd that it got shut down that quickly.

They were saying on TV yesterday is that they let each guy play for about a week at a time to give him and opportunity to get in a groove, rather than switch it up every day or two and put a lot of pressure on the players to perform with sporadic playing time. We'll see if it actually works out that way or if Woody going to be riding the bench the rest of the month.

I don't understand the fascination with Miller - or why JP thinks he could be a closer. His career numbers (albeit in only 165 IP) are horrific. His WHIP is 1.7, ERA is 5.43, OPB against is .388, his K:BB is 1:1 (!) and he's coughed up 23 HRs in those 165 innings.

Soy capitan, soy capitan...

Thanks, Jordan.

My Spanish is limited to what I picked up on the PBS version of Sesame Street

I watched it on PBS too; what is the other version? CBC has (had?) Sesame Park, hardly comparable to the Street. Is that what you mean?

You know who pissed me off on Sesame Street? Prairie Dawn. She was worse than Elmo.

Lineups tonight:

Johnson
Hudson
Wells
Delgado
Rios
Hinske
Zaun
Gross
Gomez

Ichiro
Winn
Boone
Ibanez
Jacobsen
Cabrera
Wilson
Lopez
Bloomquist

Gagné's numbers as a starter in 2000 - 2001 were as bad. ERA around 5 (ERA+ of 84, Miller's in 2002 was 81) 1.4 WHIP, 44 home runs in 250 innings.

I'm not saying that Miller is a future closer, or can be anywhere near as successful as Gagné. But if pulling a Chulk with him can lead to an effective reliever, I'd take it.

Hmmm...Da Box needs to do an All-Sesame Street Team.

Bert Blyleven, Ernie Banks, Oscar Charleston, and 1976 ROY Mark "The Bird" Fidrych, and Grover Cleveland Alexander make for an interesting lineup. Not to mention George Henry "Snuffy" Stirnweiss.

What else is new... Ichiro leads the ballgame off with a single.

This guy is unreal

It gets late early around here. :)

All-Sesame Street Team

John "The Count" Montefusco?
Cookie Rojas?

LOL!!!

On the 3-0 Strike to Ibanez, the crowd errupted into a good ole bronx cheer. Justin Miller, as usual, looks awful tonight.

The Triple-A guys will be up tomorrow, and Ryan Glynn (7-2, 3.40 in 16 starts for Syracuse) will be the starter on Sunday, as Josh Towers has a tender shoulder.

Miller's fastball, at its best, has tremendous late movement. We haven't seen that pitch since he came back from the DL, and he appears to be nibbling because he can't overpower anyone. It's probably a combination of physical and mental factors, and it looks like another short outing tonight.

1-0 M's already as he walks in a run, nobody out, bases still loaded.

Bring on Douglass!!

I love this... Zaun is just setting up right over the middle, Miller can't hit a thing!

Stupid Jacobson could have had a walk there...

Too late to pull Miller from my BBFL lineup...

I sat him last start, but figured he'd be OK against the Mariners...hopefully the Jays can score a ton and get him a win.

Yeah, his stuff is ordinary and his control isn't very good. It's batting practice right now, but he's a ground ball away from getting out of it down just 3-0.

I think the Towers verse Miller "battle" for the 5th spot in the rotation next year is pretty much over, and it has been for a while IMO.

Towers by a landslide.

dp - given that he's already thrown almost 30 pitches and he has exactly one out, the chances of him going 5 innings are next to nil I'm afraid.

Coach, to add to your comments on Miller, he seems to be throwing entirely too many sliders and tonight his slider has next to no control. He's thrown 32 pitches and only 17 have been for strikes and there's still only 2 outs. It seems the talk with Patterson didn't do much for him, because his control was still off.

3-0 isn't THAT bad

Well if the Mariner's batting coach had any sort of sense he would be telling his guys to not swing at ANY OF THESE PITCHES!!

Seriously just about every foul ball these idiots have swung at are not even close to the zone.

Miller is very lucky he is pitching to Seattle and not someone else.

Caramon, I'm watching the game through the Mariners broadcast on DirecTV and the announcer (Niehaus) agrees with you completely. He's saying that a guy like Lopez shouldn't be hacking at the first pitch when Miller is fighting bouts with his control and he's never even faced Miller before in his career.

Miller K's Lopez to get out of the inning.

Anyone who thinks our starting pitching is a strength for next season has to be watching a different set of pitchers than me. Miller has obviously lost his starting role for next year, or should. Towers is an overachieving bomb ready to explode (in a bad way). Batista is having scary ratios, the kind of ratios you would expect a pitcher to have that Billy Beane would trade in the first month of off-season in order to sell high. Lilly is having a great season. All that while not knowing whether Roy Halladay is even going to be healthy enough to pitch (cross fingers) effectively next season.

My fear may come true. JP is going to spend so much time beefing up the offense to replace Carlos, that he'll ignore the starting pitching and get burnt.

I do think Miller has a chance to be a righty specialist out of the bullpen though. His slider should be able to make him effective in that role.

O-Dog bites back with a DEEEEEEEP solo shot to right.

Dave, it's not always that simple. Sometimes there are reasons for poor performances, and we don't hear about them. Like Towers' shoulder, which was why he didn't come out for the sixth the other night and will miss his next start. Like Batista's back, which explains his terrible August.

Miller, when he's 100% healthy, can hit 95 with a devastating cutter. Towers simply doesn't have that kind of arm. Of course, Justin still has to develop some consistency, which Josh already has.

Scott, they are always looking to beef up the rotation, and it won't be surprising at all if they bring in another starter this winter. Do you really think you know more about the team's needs than J.P.?

Way to go, O-Dog. No pitcher's duel tonight.

O-Dog has really had a great second half.

*Prays JP can swindle away Rich Harden*

It's scary how lost at the plate Wells looks right now. I'm assuming its related to his leg injury but he really looks like he could use a mental health day.

Scott, I have to disagree.

IMO, the starting pitching is possibly one of Toronto's biggest strengths. Lilly is having as you said, a great season. Batista was performing well but he's had to pitch through pain for quite some time now, if anything it makes me like Batista even more for next year because it shows he's a gamer. In a "meaningless" season he's still pitched his ass off and that's the kind of guy you want on your team. I have no concerns with Roy. If anyone can bounce back from something as minor as dead arm, it's Roy... so you can pencil him in as the ace. With a healthy Doc on the mound, Lilly as the #2, and Batista as the 3 that makes for a very respectable starting rotation.

You seem to have forgotten about David Bush as well. The rookie is pitching like a 10 year vet, pencil him in as the #4 starter. You now have the entire off-season to find a #5 starter if you aren't comfortable with Towers, have fun.

I will admit the bullpen scares the heck out of me. Ligtenberg will need to bounce back next season, or else the 2.5 million will really stick out. I have confidence in Spy now, and with the added experience Frasor and Chulk should only improve, Frasor especially.

The pitching is fine, the offense isn't. JP is a smart guy, he won't just look at the team era and just automatically assume that the pitching is great. If he perceives a hole or a weakness, believe me, he will fix it.

One problem is that injuries have pushed back the timetable on development of the Jays' starting pitching. If McGowan and Rosario had been healthy all year, next year's rotation could conceivably have been:

Halladay
Lilly
Batista
Bush
McGowan

With Rosario waiting in the wings for say, a mid-2005 callup, followed by Banks, League, Chacin, Marcum, et al.

REJOICE REJOICE!!

The Jays got Ichiro out!!!

Street, not a chance in hell we see McGowen next year in the rotation. He just isn't ready (don't even think he is fully recovered yet). Chacin or League have much better chances to make it out of spring training IMO.

Miller, when he's 100% healthy, can hit 95 with a devastating cutter. Towers simply doesn't have that kind of arm. Of course, Justin still has to develop some consistency, which Josh already has.

Coach, there's no denying that Miller's stuff is filthy. What concerns me is that even when "he's on", he still struggles with his command and walks entirely too many hitters. Towers on the other hand has excellent control and although he might seem like "a bomb waiting to explode" he very rarely does explode. Sure he has his bad nights where he gets shelled, but most of the time he has his good nights where he can give you a quality start. Miller's upside is far greater than Josh's, but until Miller fixes his command I feel safer with Josh in the rotation.

One thing I don't like though, about Josh in the rotation, is that if he and Bush are 4 and 5 you basically let opponents see the same pitcher on back to back nights.

The strength of the pitching is pretty much dependent on the health of Halladay's right arm.

Watching the Mariners whiff at Bush's curve yesterday, I could see that Bush and Towers aren't the same pitcher. Same velocity, sure. But Bush at least has something resembling at out pitch. The same can't really be said for Towers.

Yet another good AB from Rios capped off with a hard hit ball that finds the outfield.

I must say that when he was first called up, from all of the scouting reports and such I was expecting a kid with hardly any discipline up at the plate that would swing at any breaking ball opposing pitchers sent his way. Baek threw a pretty decent 2-2 curve with lots of bite on it and Alex simply stayed back and watched it go by low and away for ball 3. Next pitch, he ripped a single.

Also, I was expecting to see a poor baserunner, and instead he is now one of the better baserunners and base stealers on the Jays.

This kid's going to be a star and I'm so glad the Jays have him!

One thing I don't like though, about Josh in the rotation, is that if he and Bush are 4 and 5 you basically let opponents see the same pitcher on back to back nights.

Gee, it'd almost make sense to play them as 3 & 5! We should find a way to tell J.P.!

DaveInNYC - I agree with you that Bush and Towers are similar pitchers, but James is right. Bush has K'd far more batters in the minors and to date in the majors than Towers ever has.

Jays starters are 5th in the league in ERA, despite the absence of Halladay and the poor performance of Hentgen and the inconsistency of Batista and the recent struggles of Miller.

Apart from Oakland, every team in the league has serious problems with the starting rotation. An awful lot of things would have to wrong next season for the Jays' starting pitching to be a weakness.

That hit by Hinske had to avoid the umpire, the runner and the fielder. Nicely done.

Oh God, runner on third and less than 2 outs!

You know this whole Catcher situation pisses me off... Either we play Zaun for all of next year, or we go out and get a new catcher.

This spliting time with Kevin Cash is stupid. The almost .390 OBP for Zaun should automatically give him the job for the year.

CaramonLS -- I'm sure Guillermo Quiroz would like to have something to say about the catching situation next season.

Ouch! Zaun got plunked pretty good right there.

I know it's Mulder on the hill tomorrow, but if your Gibbons aren't you the least bit tempted to rest Zaun's probable soar elbow and give Quiroz his major league start tomorrow night?

Or does it go to Cash by default?

I'm calling it: The Mariners don't escape this inning with the lead.

You just never know with pitchers. McGowan was about to be called up to Triple-A when he was shut down, and he might have outperformed Bush there. Arnold also regressed this year, and Rosario was inconsistent. However, when you have so many good ones in the system, the odds are that some of them -- not always the ones you expect -- will have an impact. Even if Towers is still the #5 that's a pretty good 2005 rotation, and it will only get better as the prospects sort themselves out.

The other good thing is that some of those promising young arms will bolster the bullpen. Soon, the Jays won't have to shop in the free agent reliever bargain bin, because guys like League and Vermilyea will be arriving every year.

The strength of the pitching is pretty much dependent on the health of Halladay's right arm.

You think? Not to mention his left leg, and every other part of his body. When you build a $50 million team around a superstar or three, they have to stay healthy or a competitive third place team will finish a disappointing fifth.

Oh God, runner on third and less than 2 outs!

Don't you mean "oh, good, an opportunity?"

Ah yes, the proverbial soar elbow, very key to the flying elbow drop in the WWE.

Jonny, it seems a burr's gotten under your saddle today.

(That said, keep the zingers comin'!)

Don't you mean "oh, good, an opportunity?

From what I know of Nigel, that's exactly what he meant - an opportunity to further perfect his whining technique.

James - I just hope Quiroz can hit the ball off a tee, otherwise I want to see him down in AAA and Zaun or another full time catcher (not Cash) getting at least 120 full time games.

Very nice catch by Ibanez robs Gomez of an RBI double; two feet higher and it's a 3-run jack. As I said, it's not going to be a pitcher's duel.

Sure thing, Tenacious D!

Okay, enough is enough, I've been the victim of Jonny's clever retort twice now :)

Coach - Not this season, when the team is about is about 10-15% worse than the opponents in those situations.

Thanks for the sarcasm by the way, my point was just that, you can worry all you want about 5th starters but it's not that important relative to the stars.

I've been the victim of Jonny's clever retort twice now

I deny both the cleverness and the "twice". What was the first one?

Thanks Johnny, I appreciate the personal attacks.

Clutch, O-Dog. Clutch.

Nigel, you could do us all a favour and leave...

FINALLY VERNON!

Hey Nigel, check it out - Runner home from third with less than 2 out, and a Wells hit in the same inning! You're going to have to find a new angle!

Gee, it'd almost make sense to play them as 3 & 5! We should find a way to tell J.P.!

Either you like me enough to be my own personal troll, or your just having a bad day... I'll go with the second one. :)

Wells finally gets a hit, a 2 run bomb at that, 7-3 Jays!

Geez, why all the heat towards Nigel? If anyone's a "whiner" it's me!

Nigel is certainly not "whining" by saying "uh oh man on 3rd with less than 2 outs." Jonny, take it easy big fella.

Thanks Johnny, I appreciate the personal attacks.

If my pointing out that you've been whining about "runner on third, less than 2 outs" all season is a personal attack, so is your misspelling my name.

Coach, no problem, I had absolutely no idea that I was offending anybody. My apologies, it certainly wasn't my intention. My posting days are over.

My posting days are over

Probably not the right time for this, but I can't help but think "Over? Did you say...over?"

I won't start that again, though. Fell flat in the Olympic semifinal thread.

Whoa! Runs aplenty today!

There's nothing that calms a pitcher down more than getting six more runs of support. :-)

How's Gross looking at the plate so far? Anyone wanna give me a scouting report?

I take it I'm the only one finding my jabs amusing. I'll stop.

Nigel: For me, you're not offensive, and I'd encourage you to keep on posting. But really, what are you accomplishing by constantly harping on the "not scoring runners from 3rd with less than 2 out". Do you think anybody here doesn't already know that they've struggled with that? Do you think you're accomplishing anything productive by pointing it our each and every time it happens?

Here comes out #2!

Looks like the SORE (HAHA JONNY!!) Elbow has knocked Zaun from the game. I believe Cash was behind the plate the last half inning, but no one picked up on it. Oh well, here he is with an AB.

Any houghts on Hinske hitting LHP better than RHP this year? Sample size?

I think I know exactly how Jonny feels. I created this site to celebrate and support the Jays, not to whine. I respect the front office as one of the sharpest in the game, if not the sharpest, and appreciate what they've done to turn around a franchise that was going nowhere. I certainly don't feel the need to give them advice. When people whose baseball knowledge is at best questionable come off as self-styled experts and make sweeping pronouncements, I get a bit testy. What Internet free speech means to me is that everyone can start their own blog, and rant all they want about whatever crosses their minds. But if you insult the team, you insult me, right here in my house, so please don't be surprised at my reaction.

Comments like "It's scary how lost at the plate Wells looks right now" are a waste of everybody's time in this forum. "I sure hope Vernon gets untracked tonight" wouldn't annoy me in the least. Nigel, you're just as welcome to stay as you are to leave, but I'm sick of all the whiners. If somebody with your negative attitude tried out for one of my baseball teams, you'd be cut regardless of talent.

Here comes out #2!

And you sound so happy about it! Why is that?

Because Coach I want to see Cash GONE!

How low of a Batting Avg does Cash have to have to continue to get AB's on this team?

"Pitcher Change: Masao Kida replaces Cha Seung Baek."

Heh, I would have no idea how to pronounce either of those names.

dp, just one of my wacky theories, but I think Eric isn't trying to do too much vs. lefties, just get a strike and put the bat on the ball. Against righties, in a season where there's been a massive team-wide power outage, he's tried too hard to knock the ball out of the park. That's why I advocate hitting him second, where he knows his responsibility is to set the table, not clear it. He's so strong, he'll hit 20+ homers every year by accident if he's simply looking to hit line drives.

Caramon, at this time it's obvious that he can't hit consistently at the major league level. But remember, Crash Myers has been out since his April encounter with the Metrodome turf.

I'd say it's hard finding an elite defensive catcher -- which Cash can become, if he isn't yet -- who can also rake at the plate. Cash is so defensively gifted that it's worth a shot seeing if the Jays coaching staff can wring some production from his swing; the man does have some power.

I wouldn't worry too much in any event. I'd imagine few in the organization see Cash as the 2006 starting catcher at this point.

That's why I advocate hitting [Hinske] second

Since Hudson currently occupies the No. 2 hole, what would you think about moving the O-Dog to the leadoff spot? (Johnson could bat first against lefties, but for the most part, Hudson would be in the lineup.)

But if you insult the team, you insult me

I'm sick of all the whiners.

Coach, I think the problem is that the line between criticism and whining is a pretty arbitrary one. There's a lot to be critical of- this is a bad team right now; I don't think it will be next year, but it is right now. You might not think the criticism is fair, but that doesn't mean it isn't valid. People are getting frustrated, but at least they're still watching.

Anyway, it's great to see some runs. Like I said earlier, it'll be interesting to see, between Gross and Rios, who develops into the better player. Rios has a little head start, so looks better now. I think he'll wind up being the better player, but that Gross will be a better hitter, if that makes sense.

Miller's got a shot at proving Nigel wron (and giving me some much-needed help in BBFL standings): dp - given that he's already thrown almost 30 pitches and he has exactly one out, the chances of him going 5 innings are next to nil I'm afraid.

That's why I advocate hitting him second, where he knows his responsibility is to set the table, not clear it.

I'm one of those people that overemphasizes lineups, but anyway...long-term I think Hinske should be #2, maybe Rios #3 and Wells #4 if Delgado leaves. Gross in my mind will be the ideal #5 hitter eventually- draws walks and has power.

Nigel is proven correct, Gibbons pulls Miller rather quickly. Good move skipper.

Well said, Mike. Cash does have value; in the National League, playoff contenders L.A., St. Louis and Houston have very Cash-like #1 catchers with a bit more experience. In the AL, you need nine hitters in the lineup to keep up with the big boys, and it doesn't look like he'll be good enough with the bat any time soon.

I would expect that J.P. tries to move him in an offseason deal or keeps him around as insurance in Triple-A next year. By contrast, an impatient fan just wants him GONE! That's why discerning Jays fans give thanks every day that CaramonLS isn't running the club.

dp, you and I have had some spirited debates and while I don't always agree with you, I always respect you. Certain posters who are relatively new to this site add nothing to any discussion but a stream of negativity. Especially if they are ill-informed and have trouble writing a comprehensible sentence, I don't have to like them, and I don't. Let them go use their own bandwidth and form a like-minded community.

Huge popup of Boone (the tying run) by File. Good job.

Hah. Well Coach I see your point, but the Defensive Catcher isn't that good of a commodity when you hit as poorly as cash does. If he got that average up to .250 and a 300 OBP I would slowly quell my bitching.

Now I don't think he was called up at the right time (he only hit .270 in AAA [uggg]).

I wouldn't have outright released him, but keeping him on the Big club and not letting him get AAA at bats is hindering his development.

He is a terrible hitter and right now teeball would help him develop.

Also as to your point LA does have a "cash" like catcher because they have no choice after trading Lo Duca.

And St.Louis can just Sandwich their catcher beside their pitcher because they have such an overpowering lineup already.

Coach, thanks for your explanation and I can appreciate that perspective completely. I can also understand that rationale for getting upset.

While I am neither a new poster nor illiterate, I agree completely with a sentiment that Craig expressed eloquently a few days ago - this space shouldn't make people upset. I criticize when I see things done poorly and compliment when done well. I've obviously posted poorly in your eyes and hence drawn your criticism. Fair enough. Again, sorry for upsetting your enjoyment of the ballgame.

"Pitcher Change: Masao Kida replaces Cha Seung Baek."

Hehe. that might be the first time all year where a pitcher I've never heard of gets replaced by a pitcher I've never heard of.

Nice job by O-Dog tonight. I somewhat wish I had him on my fantasy team instead of Soriano. Would you believe that I traded Manny to get Soriano? Ugghh.

Honestly, I think some of the negativity on this site is necessary, even if it drives Coach nuts. I don't see how saying "Wells looks lost at that plate" constitutes as "whining." To me, it's an observation. A negative observation, yes, but not a whine.

In any case, the place would be rather boring if every post was just "Go Jays Go."

As far as Miller, I can't see the game tonight, but I'm not liking what I see in the boxscore. I consider myself a JP fan, but it really must be questioned why Miller did no rehab starts before returning to the rotation. I don't know if it would have made a difference, but I like to think that it would have.

I would be a little surprised if Cash gets moved this winter - he doesn't have a whole lot of value at the moment. The wrong side of the Mendoza line and all...

It seems unlikely that he's that weak a hitter. He's a career .171 hitter but in less than 300 at bats. And his history suggests that it may take him awhile to adjust to a new level of competition. He hit .270 in Syracuse last year (better than Gabe Gross the same season, or Alex Rios this year), but he hit just .220 the first time he saw AAA pitching.

So I think he will surely hit better at the major league level than he has so far - he can be Buck Martinez or Mike Matheny. He'll eventually settle in as the RH half of a platoon, or maybe a number one job in the NL.

But right now, he has almost no trade value. And you should never make a trade to get rid of someone - you should make a trade in order to get someone. And what could the Blue Jays get in exchange for Cash right now?

By the way, is File a fabulous defensive player or what? That's what I missed while he was away.

I don't think he was called up at the right time

Better to find out what they had this year than to count on him in the 2006 pennant race, don't you think?

The Quiroz era begins tomorrow. If he's as good as most people who have ever seen him play believe he is, Cash won't be on the 25-man roster next year. Whether he's traded or returns to Syracuse, where he would be an all-star, Kevin remains an asset. Saying nonsensical things like "teeball would help him develop" doesn't give the rest of your comments a great deal of credibility.

the place would be rather boring if every post was just "Go Jays Go."

Yeah, you're right. OK, I'll give it a try: Cut Hinske, he sucks. Sunk costs. Worst 3B I've ever seen. He forgot how to hit. Fire J.P.!!!! Blow up the team!!!!!

How was that?

http://www.torontobaseballguys.com
Quite the pitching duel tonight.

For the All-Sesame Street team, I nominate RF Harry "Mr." Hooper.

As for Towers vs. Miller in the 5 spot, my preference would be Miller. As infuriating as his command can be at times, his stuff is still electric enough that he can compete when his command is off. Witness last Friday against the best hitting lineup in the league, he walked everybody, and the Jays were still in the game when he was pulled.

Towers is more consistent as a Tewksbury-lite, but when he's off, he gets lit like a frat boy from Chug-A-Lug house at Oktoberfest. Still a useful guy to have around, but if he finishes with 10 wins and ERA under 4.50, JP should explore the market for him.

<.shameless plug>And for those looking for Jays optimism, COMN for an article on why Delgado just might be back next year

And you should never make a trade to get rid of someone

That's not always the case.

hi, first time blogging after one and half years of sitting on the sidelines. seen many debates on being respectful over the years. i think it is great that you guys can talk it out. not too long ago when mike green was criticized, and now he is like the prodigal son come home. so i hope no one quits, I just wish that everyone would write blogs that would interest others and not just to vent their own frustrations. keep up the good comments everyone. see you in another year and a half

Good one, Rob!

You should almost never make a trade to get rid of someone?

:-)

I am no psychologist, but I was wondering, perhaps being benched for Greg Zaun has a lot to do with Cash's poor performance. He is, after all, only 26 years old. The pressure, the removal of his starting position, I think the last month or so he could just be feeling so down, he simply CAN'T give 100% out there. Players in the past have seen their on-field performance decline when going through a divorce, etc. Maybe a change of scenery to a nice National League team will do him well. If Tim Laker can still be playing, and Tom Prince can have a long career in the NL, I see no reason why Cash won't possibly blossom in the NL.
It's his mind messin' him up! That's my theory.

you should never make a trade to get rid of someone

Unless it's Mondesi, I agree. A nice .270 season with 12-15 dingers in the IL next year might be best for Cash's career and the Jays.

Magpie, would you mind sending me an e-mail? COMN.

Ryan, I'm just guessing about why Miller didn't have rehab starts, but it wasn't an arm problem, and he had been throwing regularly. His leg injury just prevented him from playing his position, like covering first base. Halladay won't have rehab starts either; the powers that be believe he'll be fine on about a 60-pitch limit.

Great, great play by Delgado.

Coach, I don't think everyone posts things like that. Hinske's numbers obviously haven't been that good, and he's quite frustrating to watch. Sure, he might wind up to be the next Travis Fryman. But he might be the next Scott Cooper.
Why the hostility to other posters lately? I go to a ton of games with friends, some who live and die by baseball, some who don't know a lot. I'm somewhere in between. I don't freak out on the lesser-thans for their honest opinions, just like those who know more don't freak out on me.
If ANY of us was ALWAYS correct, we'd be employed by an MLB team by now....

I remember another player last year that some advocated getting rid of just to get rid and he was flipped for a player who was flipped for an All Star.

If I'm not mistaken I believe I've read that catchers typically develop slowly at the plate and then at some point it just clicks, or they'll have a career year. If someone knew more or could link to something that'd be interesting to see.

Anyway, given that he's a stellar defensive catcher (or at the very least can throw out baserunners at a high clip), and he'll be really cheap for 2 more years I think he has some value. Maybe he could be flipped for a Frasor-like player.

Maybe this has been answered before:
What's the deal with Bucky Jacobsen? Does anyone think he's for real, or is he just a 2004 Sam Horn? He seems kind of old to be making his debut, but boy he sure has some power.

The 2nd 2 paragraphs were referring to Cash if one couldn't figure it out.

About Cash and Zahn:

Zaun first played for the Jays on May 1st.

Cash played almost every game in April, going .266 / .324 / .453

In May, Cash played in 14 games, going .167 / .216 / .200

Case closed, right?

Not really.

Cash’s line for April is buoyed by a 4 / 4 game (with 3 doubles), without that, he hit his typical .216 / 310 / .366

So Zahn’s appearance didn’t send Cash into a funk.

Oh man, I didn't think he was that bad back then!
Thanks, 6-4-3! I totally forgot about that 4-for-4 game as well.
So much for that theory.

Don't thank me, thank ESPN's nifty game log feature.

What's funny is that I have a clear recollection of the Blue Jays' website in May, 2004 having a poll for Blue Jays MVP in April, and I was certain that Cash was an option. But he did have 7 runs and 13 RBIs, along with 2 dingers.

Yeah, you're right. OK, I'll give it a try: Cut Hinske, he sucks. Sunk costs. Worst 3B I've ever seen. He forgot how to hit. Fire J.P.!!!! Blow up the team!!!!!

How was that?

That was beautiful!! I agree with you 100%. ;-)

I'm a little surprised they're pitching to Ichiro here with 1B open.

catchers typically develop slowly at the plate and then at some point it just clicks

This makes intuitive sense - it ought to be true. Catching is so hard, and there's so much to learn about the defensive part of the job. A catcher has to know his own pitching staff, he's supposed to know something about all the hitters in the league, he's supposed to know how to call a game.

But just because it makes intuitive sense doesn't make it true, and one can easily think of any number of catchers who hit the major leagues with their offensive games completely up and running. Sometimes it might be ahead of their defensive games, sometimes they arrived more or less fully formed.

For some reason the first guy I think of is Benito Santiago, because how often do rookie catchers how 30 game hitting streaks?

Honestly, I think the diversity of views is what makes this site interesting. It takes all types. And very few of us are "experts"--whatever that means. I guess criticism of the team doesn't really bother me that much. I love the Jays as much as anyone, but you know, the team is in last place. I think I would be a lot more concerned if everyone was "accentuating the positive" and singing paeans to JP Ricciardi.

I'm a little surprised they're pitching to Ichiro here with 1B open.

You have to. He was the tying run, you can't hand him first base. You've still got a 50/50 chance of getting him out. Walk him and you've got zero chance.

He's not Bonds, you can't expect him to hit a HR. If it had been Bonds... I would have been very very afraid, and I don't know what I would have done.

Count me as a happy camper going back to Speier again tonite. Thats why you pay em the big bucks. Now he has a chance to prove he can earn it. If he can keep his ratio low and match his historic K numbers why should he be any worse an option than Nathan. If between Frasor and Speier they have their closer-judged in spring training, think of the money that can be applied to the other team needs.

You have to. He was the tying run, you can't hand him first base. You've still got a 50/50 chance of getting him out. Walk him and you've got zero chance.

For some reason I was thinking it was a 1 run game.

BINGO

You've still got a 50/50 chance of getting him out. Walk him and you've got zero chance.

I love it when the math is simple. If it was Bonds, you have less than a 40% chance of getting him out. So I walk him.

Another super job by Speier, who should have been the closer since the first day of camp.

Very nice work by the bullpen tonight.

Another super job by Speier, who should have been the closer since the first day of camp.

You know I couldn't agree more but still theres something to be said for competition.

Well done by Speier after letting the first guy get on. Solid sequence to the big fella to end the game. Speier looked pretty pumped after the save. Always good to see. Hopefully Speier can take this job and run with it. Frasor did a nice job as well. Who gets the win today? It should be interesting to see what the official scorer says.

File gets the W, but the whole bullpen deserves it. Again.

Frasor looks more comfortable in the set up role,also is now throwing a nice hard curveball to complement his fastball.

If it was Bonds, you have less than a 40% chance of getting him out. So I walk him.

If he's the tying run? Normally I would never deliberately put the tying run on base. Even Bonds, you've got a 40% chance of getting him out.

Bonds complicates things by hitting so many of those darn HRs. What is it, one every 7 at bats?

So. You've got a 40% chance of getting him out, against him having a 15% chance of tying the game. I think I'd pitch to him.

But if he represented the winning run... or even the go ahead run in the 8th or 9th... then I think I'd walk him.

Unless I had Jesse Orosco stashed away somewhere.

Speier, who should have been the closer since the first day of camp

If the Jays' staff, after charting him and evaluating his performance, decides that Speier is capable of being the closer for 2005, they should give him the Opening Day closing job this November 1st.

No pressure to perform in meaningless spring training games. No "open competition" and "closer by committee." Let's tell him come hell or high water, he's our April closer. Sometimes, Speier might be needed in a situation such that he won't earn the save statistic...but he's got to be given the keys to the back of the bullpen unequivocally.

And once he is closing, let's not shuffle the deck the first time he coughs up a lead. Let's give him the shot that the A's gave Arthur Rhodes -- or, with more felicitous results, that the Twins gave Joe Nathan. If he goes 7 for his first 11 opportunities, with an ERA north of 5.00...fine, let's see what Frasor or a free agent can do.

But I really want to see the Jays try a "peace of mind" approach to the bullpen in '05. It just might work.

Ah, thanks Coach. I didn't watch much of the early game (USA v Russia...damn Kovalev-'bout time he used his talent), so I didn't see Miller or File, but the rest of the 'pen looked terrific. It seems they now know their role and perhaps it'll pay off like tonight for the last month of the season. I don't have the stats, but the Jays have been darn good the last few Septembers as well.

I understood Tosca's thought process, even if I didn't agree with it -- everyone was new, and the pecking order would sort itself out, so don't assign any roles. But Adams was coming off surgery, Ligtenberg can't get lefties out, and Spy had successfully closed in Coors Field, which has to be a test of anyone's nerve. It was a no-brainer.

let's not shuffle the deck the first time he coughs up a lead

Whether or not he erred in spring training, that's where the former skipper messed up. You have to let your closer fail. You have to let him fail twice, or three times. If job security is hanging on every pitch along with the regular ninth inning pressure, who can succeed?

The way it's all worked out is just fine. It hasn't made a bit of difference in a lost season, except that the experience will make Jay Frasor even better in the long run. I think everyone, including teammates and fans, is grateful for what the rook has done but feels more comfortable with the veteran out there.

Notice the lack of calls for Gibby's head? Around here these days, that's high praise. I concur.

http://www.immune26.tv
Two wins against the only team in basball that might be worse than us. I've seen this several times this year. We play OK against trash and then when go against the big boys we see the holes. Before we appoint Speier "Closer of the Century" lets remember his failures against the teams that could chew bubble gum and tie their own shoe laces at the same time.

No one in this bullpen has EARNED ANYTING except the right to face competition from whomever we can find over the winter.

when go against the big boys we see the holes

Yeah, Halladay, Wells, Delgado, Catalanotto, Myers and Hudson do create enormous holes when they're not in the lineup. I've noticed that all year -- for some reason, this team seems to rely on its best players.

Speier obviously wasn't healthy early in the season, so it's hard to say he deserved to be closing. But now he's 100%, we're seeing the pitcher J.P. thought he was getting - you know, the guy that survived Coors Field.

He may well be the best pitcher in the pen next year - barring any big-name FA acquisitions - but I think Frasor deserves a chance to at least compete for the closer job

Ichiro! update - he now has 217 hits, and needs 40 more to catch George Sisler.

He had 56 hits in August (.463 BAVG) and 51 hits in July (.432 BAVG) and 50 hits in May (.400 BAVG).

So its certainly doable.

Alas, .400 is pretty much out of reach. He'd need to hit about .525 the rest of the way (63 for 120) to make it there...

Frasor looks more comfortable in the set up role,also is now throwing a nice hard curveball to complement his fastball.

He always had that pitch but he rarely threw it before he got two strikes.

http://www.immune26.tv
Testy, testy Coach.

I agree we've had more than our share of injuries and unexplained underperformances. When JP brought in Adams, the Big L and the Big S I thought our bullpen was going to be a real strength. Instead it's been a huge disappointment.

Hopefully Speier is a keeper. BUT not enough of a keeper to be guaranteed anything except a fight for a job next year.

By this time next year, League, Rosario, Vermilyea and possibly Peterson will be in the mix... we have a bright(ish) future.

There's a difference between analysing the weaknesses of a player or team and whining. The former isn't just an off-the-cuff remark, but rather a presentation of facts and logic to support one's opinions.

Two wins against the only team in basball that might be worse than us.

And where would you put the Diamondbacks exactly?

Testy, testy Coach.

Some here have been a wee bit testy tonight alright. Including you. Now its my turn.

Has anyone checked out Mrlegacy's snake oil web page. I might be wrong but like everyone, entitled to an opinion.

To me your business is an atempt to pimp on the poor and gullible. Why don't you peddle your crap somewhere else. You give us here in Lotusland a bad name. At the very least show some dignity and stop with the highlighted name thing.

Where do you get off even saying something like that, Lefty? WHY would you even do that?
Coach is a friggin' spaz. Have you ever seen teams win before without their stars? Yes, actually that does happen, Coach. Why, look at the Royals last year who BARELY HAD ANY STARS AT ALL.
Uh oh. I just said something against the battersbox Pope! 50 Hail Mary's and a site ban for me!

Golf clap for Lefty.

That's me clapping beside Craig.

Lets not go crazy handing any thing to speier he is saving games with no pressure and against seattle.I still want frasor to close games out this season.

H-Rod, could you drop me a line? craig@battersbox.ca. Thanks...

No stars like Carlos Beltran? No stars like Mike Sweeney? No stars like Rookie of the Year Angel Berroa?

Granted, their pitching staff was a mess, and they wouldn't be confused with the Yankees, but claiming that the Royals had no stars isn't accurate. And all it led them to was an 83 - 79 record, good for third place in the weakest division in baseball.

A couple notes...

I really want to see the Jays try a "peace of mind" approach to the bullpen in '05. It just might work

I like what Mike D is saying here. No team ever gets through a season (anymore) with a bullpen unscathed, but if the Jays were to prepare for success with the pen, instead of (quite sensibly after 2003) minimizing failure, it just might work.

But just because it makes intuitive sense doesn't make it true, and one can easily think of any number of catchers who hit the major leagues with their offensive games completely up and running. Sometimes it might be ahead of their defensive games, sometimes they arrived more or less fully formed.

I think this is right, but this almost demands a study... how catchers develop as hitters vs. other players.

I apologize if i offended you Not H-Rod. Sometimes we call em as we see em. I've had the mother of all spats with Coach too. So what. I have tried to mediate disputes between posters and the roster. Not at anyones invitation. However I try not to view this as a them and us.

I think its offensive that someone comes on to a public site where the subject is baseball and tries to swindle a buck.

The vast majority of Batter's Box visitors are thoughful, articulate, friendly and respectful. But a few, especially trolls and spammers, are nuisances, like the worst callers on talk radio.

If I was doing a postgame show, I'd be considerably more abrasive than Mike Wilner (who does a fantastic job; we just have different styles) when someone wastes the time of all the other listeners. Of course, Not H-Rod or anyone else who thinks I'm a friggin' spaz would have the right to tune me out, or call in and blast me for my intolerance, at which point I could argue with them or hang up. That all seems fair enough on the radio, but this is a different medium. So I'm just being honest with the "callers" who bug me, instead of suffering in silence while the signal-to-noise ratio deteriorates.

Although this may be just another public forum to many of you, I can't help feeling paternal (and therefore protective) about Da Box. It has been influenced by a lot of wonderful and talented "uncles" who care about it as much as I do, but it is my not-quite-2-year-old offspring. I hope that those who don't like me or my site will simply spend their time somewhere else that makes them happier.

And one more note:

Coach - Not this season, when the team is about is about 10-15% worse than the opponents in those situations.

I wasn't around earlier when this was posted, but that is a very interesting piece of data. Nigel, where did you find this data, and is it current? I'd love to take a look at it. Off the top of my head, I wouldn't know where to find splits for runners on third with less than two out.

Also, by "10-15%" I assume you mean the Jays' successes are 10-15% less than their opponents', instead of the opponents' percentage being 10-15 ahead of Toronto's, which would be a scarily huge number...

And one last thing. I AM THE HEAD SPAZ AROUND HERE. The line for getting called a spaz goes through me. Capiche?

Sure, but I would argue most teams have at least a handful of very good players.
Sweeney only played 108 games, while Desi Relaford and Brent Mayne helped bring down the team. And the pitching staff, aside from both Darrell May (heheh, first time i've ever said that) and Curt Leskanic, was pretty bad.
By contrast, the Arizona Diamondbacks had (yes, only) Luis Gonzalez and Steve Finley, but a far better pitching staff and I would argue a much deeper bench, and only won 84 games.
Not really much of a point, except to somehow argue against that sarcastic comment made earlier.

I think everyone should just calm down and look at this cute kitten.

If i wasn't already calm that kitten would do it for me Rob. Very sweet. Thanks.

Well, I had to post that.
The Cabal made it clear on its Tired Batter's Box Clichés Policy Page that every thread must contain a hotlinked picture of a cuttlefish or a kitten, or a reference to John Hattig's man-strength. ;)

Another site has announced Adam Peterson as a fifth call-up today. There were only 4, excluding Peterson, highlited on the telecast. Can anyone confirm one way or the other?

Hmm, well to all the people bitching about the supposed whining on this site:

Look at the other sites. I've been to dozens of baseball mediums like this one, and this one has BY FAR the LEAST amount of "whining" of any of them. Read the Yankee fans on BaseballPrimer's GameChatter. Go to SoSH. Both places have about 200% more whining than Batters Box. I really don't think it's much of a problem here.

Sorry if that was overly sarcastic, I blame it on the fact that the kitten had not yet made an appearance.

What you originaly said was that no team won without its stars, because Kansas City won last year, with barely any stars at all. They had Sweeney (for 100), Beltran, and the 2003 version of Berroa. They also didn't really win that much, which was because (as you mentioned) they had an incredibly bad pitching staff, and guys like Brent Mayne.

Arizona didn't win because their strength (pitching) was worse than two other teams in their division (LA, and the Giants). They also played in a much better division, and didn't have the opportunity to beat up on a historically bad team.

It's at this point that I wonder if I have a point, so I guess I'll close with the obvious statement that every team has its stars, and things go bad when their stars go injured or stop performing. It doesn't matter if the stars are Carlos Delgado or Kevin Brown or Randy Johnson, if their replacements are Dave Berg, Tanyon Sturtze, and Andrew Good, trouble's a'brewing.

http://www.torontobaseballguys.com
The Cabal made it clear on its Tired Batter's Box Clichés Policy Page that every thread must contain a hotlinked picture of a cuttlefish or a kitten

How about a cuttlefish eating a kitten?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-bluejays-moves&prov=ap&type=lgns
Peter: Click on my name above for the AP story on the Jays' callups.

Adams, Crozier, Glynn, Quiroz.

Is that even where the cuttlefish's mouth is? How does one know??

We don't want ANY whining. If you're going to be critical, make it constructive.

Fair enough, Robert. I'm just saying, compared to other sites, this site is very good.

http://www.torontobaseballguys.com
Is that even where the cuttlefish's mouth is? How does one know??


Hmmm. 'Tis a fine question. All I know is that before this picture was taken, the kitten had been whining. Let that be a lesson to all of you.

8:16pm, September 2nd, 2004: The exact moment battersbox jumped the shark.

See you around, kids.

Okay...I'm not trying to burn any bridges here but...(queue careless use of matches)

I'm mostly a lurker here. I find the whining annoying BUT I also dislike the Coach/Dudek/Cabal "why don't you just leave", etc. responses annoying as well.

Maybe this is "your house" and 'we' shouldn't come in and piss on it. If it is (just another private Blog) then you shouldn't be allowed in the press box or be viewed by the BJ's as alternative media. If you are media (and taking the perks), 'we' are your customers. You don't scream at your customers that they are idiots or are urinating on your floor coverings.

I think it's extremely cool that this site (that I have viewed since day 1 or 2) has become legitimate as 'media.'
But since it has, you (being the Cabal) have to view the posters (even the idiots) as 'customers.'

Give me someone willing to post negative about the Jays over yet another Torontonian who completely ignores the team and the game.

A Chicken Little fan is still a fan. Success (which I pray for in 2005-2008) is the cure for all of us.

P.S. I've had a few beers so make a 'Park Factor' adjustment for this post ;-)

The exact moment battersbox jumped the shark.

Ted McGinley posted on Da Box?

See you around, kids.

Sorry we're not cool enough for you.

Anyway...

FUN. Let's all try to have fun. I personally don't have a problem with people airing their frustrations here (though I don't like the moaning when it's endlessly repeated, day in and day out). I don't think Coach or Robert like it at all, which I understand. Different strokes for different folks.

If it is (just another private Blog) then you shouldn't be allowed in the press box or be viewed by the BJ's as alternative media. If you are media (and taking the perks), 'we' are your customers

I want to just break this down for a sec. There is a difference between the coverage of the Jays that Batter's Box provides (which we believe is valuable in and of itself), and the unprecedented access we give the public to our site, to air their own views. We don't even have the minimal registration requirements of most boards - this is truly an open channel, to be used for good or for ill.

The fact that the Blue Jays consider our own coverage to be useful to them, should not be confused with how we run the public-access portion of this site. Not at all. You are a Batter's Box "customer" if you are reading the site (and if you are, we try to treat you with as much respect as possible).

You are a contributor, though, if you're posting your material on the site for all to read. And yes, we may expect a minimal standard out of you. We may applaud you, we may laugh at you, we may ridicule you, we may argue with you, and we may even get angry with you. That's the same prerogative you have with us. I don't think we should be demanding positivity out of everyone... I do think, though, that if people are going to be negative OR positive, or anything, they should be prepared to be challenged about it.

In the end, we'd like to think that Batter's Box give you all good value for what you pay for it.

We all understand, I think, that part of the territory with being in the public eye and providing a service, is that innumerable people will come along and tell us what we "MUST" do. Because that's what people do, for one reason or another. That's OK. We won't be likely to change our stripes... for a gang of pinkos, we're a pretty conservative bunch. We just hope we can keep the site's feel as we continue to grow.

I am going back to having fun now.

for a gang of pinkos, we're a pretty conservative bunch

And our lone conservative can be pretty pink.

Speaking as someone new to this site and an outsider...I really enjoy it. It gives me a perspective on the farm team I normally would not be able to get. As well it gives me the opportunity to read other peoples opinion/ideas on trades on prospects etc. I really don't understand how people take the criticism personally afterall its just harmless talk.

I have another opinion...
I love this site, but it seems like members of the roster are far far far too thin skinned. I absolutely hate it when I see one of them say 'well then you can just leave'. Sometimes this is said to trolls, and sometimes it's not. Diversity of opinion is good!
I've seen on more than one occaision someone will post something about Hinske not being very good and Cash being terrible, and then Coach will post that they should stop whining because after all Rios is having a good season and so is Bush.
True, but also irrelevant.

You're of course welcome to ignore everyhing I've said, but I don't think i'm the only one that gets dissapointed by the 'then you can leave' posts.

Also, Robert, lighten up. I realize that you think you know more about baseball than most people, and I suspect that that's true. However, there's no reason to be a dick about it.

I agree Steve, Robert acts like my 40 year old mom with PMS! Chill out Robert, there are many people that now alot more than you although you will disagree.