I'm predicting a 3-2 win for the home team tonight, Towers going 7 innings and pulling himself out after he feels gassed at 76 pitches.

So is the official call up list for sept Quiroz, Adams and Crozier. Or is there more?

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/gamecenter/preview/MLB_20040831_SEA@TOR
Lineups (COMN):

Johnson 7
Hudson 4
Wells 8
Delgado 3
Hinske 5
Rios 9
Menechino DH
Woodward 6
Cash 2

When you move the DH out to play the field, the player he replaces is lost from the lineup and the pitcher bats in that spot. But what if Menechino was the DH in that blowout game? Could he actually haved pitched, following MLB rules?

I'm not suprised that the Mariners stink, I'm suprised maybe at how bad they stink, but I didn't see more then 70 wins in their future on opening day.

Will be good to see Crozier, he was such a promising running back out of Nebraska a few years ago.

Buy the way Chi hung cheng is loking real good in rookie ball!!!!!!!!

That's hilarious. The best ERA for a Blue Jay in the past week is Menechino.

Does anybody know why Team Canada are wearing yellow jeresys tonight?
Blecch.

Finally, Josh Towers faces someone who throws softer than he does.

It's only the first inning in both games, of course, but Vazquez gave up a bases-clearing triple to Hafner in the first and Manny just hit a 3-run jack. If both leads hold up, the Red Sox will be 3 1/2 games back.

Nice work by Towers so far.

I don't understand how Menechino continues to hit well, and bats seventh, and Hinske continues to not hit well and bats fifth. Particularily against a lefty. Oh well, not a big deal.

I have two TVs side-by-side playing the hockey game and the baseball game. I am such a man. 8-)

Someone mentioned a site a while ago that has links to sites that might have other MLB games on...anyone know that site?

Josh got away with a belt-high cripple to Wilson (only mistake I've seen so far, but not all mistakes are crushed) then made three great pitches to get another nice double play and easily whiffed Lopez.

He'll need a run or two, and maybe the second time through the order, the Jays will be adjusted to Moyer's 70-mph slop.

The question is, which TV has the sound on?

If both leads hold up, the Red Sox will be 3 1/2 games back.

Oh dear Lord, if the Red Sox come back and win the division I think I will puke.

Go *gulp* Yankees!

Martin St. Louis scores a powerplay goal, 1-0 Canada.

Ryan, in an admittedly small sample size (19 AB) Hinske's OPS vs. Moyer is 1.134, so I'm sure Gibby considered that.

I don't get all the hate for the Red Sox, after the cocky show that the Yankees put on this weekend. Maybe it's just because one of my friends loves the Yanks, but I hate them much more than I hate the BoSox...I'm actually cheering for Boston.

Coach...has Hinske faced Moyer since he forgot how to hit?

I don't know, Tyler. Did Eric "forget" since Baltimore, when he hit that 420-foot opposite-field bomb and the other one onto Eutaw St.?

Woo-hoo, Carlos!

Damn, he just remembered.

Back to back homers...

Back to back!

I don't know why Moyer pitched to Delgado in that situation, Delgado has absolutely crushed Moyer over the years.

Carlos with 4 homers the past 6 games. Nice followup by Hinske.

4 extra-base hits in an inning. It's pointing out the obvious, but this has been sorely lacking for the Jays this year.

Hmm, didn't realize we couldn't criticize the guys carrying sub-.400 slugging percentages, who are creating offence barely above replacement level, and are probably below replacement level when defence is considered. Apologies...

Gee, I wish someone around here was astute enough to predict the Jays would jump on Moyer the second time around.

Never mind. 4-0 and counting.

scratch that, 4 HRs in 5 games. Delgado's line for August (not including tonight):

.313/.412/.635/1.047

The Jays have figured out Moyer, with fantastic results.

When your fastball can barely break 80, you're control has got to be perfect. It doesn't look like Moyer is quite hitting his spots, and the Jays are driving it everywhere.

Your control, not you're. Geez, I thought I had graduated Grade 4 English class.

Carlos needs 6 home runs and 25 RBI to reach 30/100. That's not going to be easy, but just the fact that there is a realistic chance it could happen is remarkable considering the year Delgado has had.

If Wells can play the field everyday, there's a good chance we can see a good sampling of Crozier next month. Good.

Excellent pitching, as Towers goes upstairs twice to Winn then bends one just under his knees for another routine grounder. Despite Emerald's earlier joke about his lack of stuff, he's painting a 91-92 heater on the corners. Should have got the call on the 2-2 to Boone; that was a beauty.

Nice defensive play by Cash to get Boone at the plate.

Jamie Moyer's innings, home run totals by year:

2001: 209.2/24
2002: 230.2/28
2003: 215/19
2004: 160/35 (coming into tonight, make that 37 now)

Draw your own conclusions

Hirschbeck isn't doing Josh any favours; the 2-1 to Ibanez was perfect and he missed that too. At least he got the call at the plate right -- nice job by the third base coach to send a slow runner down by four.

Bill Bavasi was on the radio earlier today, pointed to injuries to Soriano and Guardado as key reasons for the Mariners' struggles.

He didn't mention that Edgar, Moyer, Boone and Olerud all got really old at the same time.

Or that he gave away Carlos Guillen for nothing, and threw a ridiculous amount of money at Raul Ibanez.

Is that the first time the Jays have hit back-to-back bombs this year? Sure feels like it. Although they may have done it the last time they faced Moyer.

Does anyone know what the Jays plan to do with Kevin Cash? The mantra for next year seems to be "Quiroz and a veteran," and Cash has only played in 20 games since May. I wonder what the future holds for him.

Josh Towers is proving me wrong, and I'm delighted about it. I never thought he could hit 92 mph though, never mind with his pin-point control.

I also feel bad for Moyer, I'm curious whether it's just a bad strech, the team being bad, or if the end is near.

Nice catch by Winn, if it was a catch that is.

The list of Bavasi's gaff's is endless. Add to the list the completely ridiculous contract given to Scott less than .600 OPS Spezio and that Ibanez's signing came before KC likely would have non-tendered him anyway thereby costing them a draft pick (after KC saw Seattle sign him they offered him arbitration).

Wait, that was Ibanez in left field, not Randy Winn. My mistake.
Still a good catch.

I don't know what the plans are for Cash, but it's rather obvious that if he's going to stay in the big leagues, he's better suited for a National League team, because AL catchers have to hit. So I'd guess he's trade bait, and if nobody bites, he goes back to Syracuse as injury insurance. Zaun and Quiroz would be a perfect combo; the rookie could learn from a fundamentally sound veteran, and Zaun can face the toughest RH pitchers.

Hmm, coming into tonight Hinske was .500/.500/.675 against Jamie Moyer this year, numbers that he's obviously raised tonight. I guess it's not due to Jamie Moyer that he's got a .252/.321/.383 line this season, and as those home runs in Baltimore proved that he hasn't forgotten how to hit, I guess that the downward plunge in his numbers is just a mirage.

Don't know if it was mentioned elsewhere, but JP says he's happy with Hinske in Part II of his interview with BP.com. He says he expected Hinske to be a .280, 20 HR, 80 RBI guy, so he doesn't know why everyone else is disappointed. I can't even begin to say how disingenous I find this to be, and I'm someone who's a big JP fan.

Like a terrier on a rat, aren't you Tyler? Game not good enough for you?

they are not going to play zahn again this season.Its all up to Quiroz and cash to prove themselves.I think Quiroz is going to be an all star cather(and they hope so,so that the over million dollars that we signed him does not look so bad)!!!!!!! Cash will be in the league for 12 -15 years because of his defensive play.JP does a great job getting vet catchers the past 2 years (myers and zahn)

Don't look now, but it's 9-0 Tribe in New York and Sturtze is already mopping up for the ace. Boston's pounding Lackey 5-0, and somebody better check Steinbrenner's blood pressure.

Towers absolutely grooved that pitch to Lopez, and the rookie made him pay. This seems to be a pattern -- Josh can be just sailing along then starts leaving pitches up.

When all is said and done, Towers just can't avoid the longball.

3-run bomb by Jose Lopez, followed by a single by Ichiro, and Towers is at his pitch limit of 75.

I don't know, you get jumped on by Roster members if you don't bow at the stats alter, you get jumped on if you do. I don't think I was saying anything that shocking in suggesting that Hinske has seemingly fallen apart offensively since his rookie season, and I still got snarked at. I'm sure if I'd been in this discussion with Robert Dudek, and suggested that some homers in Baltimore show that Hinske is a good hitter, I'd have some acerbic response going the other way.

Tyler, we get it. You don't like Hinske. Who are you again, and why should I care?

If you're just looking for me to say something positive about Hinske, he's been one of my favourite Jays this year in terms of hustle, work ethic and seeming like he gives a damn. It's a shame his skills have seemingly deserted him.

It has a lot to do with tone, not content, Tyler. By wording your statement like this:

Coach...has Hinske faced Moyer since he forgot how to hit?

You're pretty much asking for an argument.

Coach, in all honesty, if you don't care, don't jump on me for saying it. I was asking a semi-legit question, got a smartass answer, and went looking for the info on my own. Now I'm getting the internet equivalent of being called a loser in high school...

Why is Menechino playing!!!!!!!!! let the kids play!!!!!!!

Next year is make or break for Hinske if you ask me.. If he succeeds he'll be praised here on a daily basis. If he fails and so does the team all of us will be calling for his head, along with JP and whoever the manager is at that point.

Tyler, I think the simple way to put it is that you're beating a dead horse.

Damn, I leave the room for a few minutes and I see Seattle has scored three and USA has scored one. Booo.

But if he hits .265 with a .420 slugging percentage, we'll get endless debates over whether he is succeeding or failing.

Mike, do you see anything positive, or any signs of hope for the guy? It's been two years of sliding for him, in seemingly every offensive category. Like I say, I don't have a problem with him in terms of his approach to the game, I was gratified to see him show up in better shape this year, but the continued decline in performance seems to be extremely worrying to me. It seems pretty inexplicable.

Josh Banks had a good outing (5.1 ip, 6 h, 0 r, 0 bb, 4 k. 0 hr), and
Hattig hit a HR (his 8th as a FisherCat, 26th overall) in game 1 of today's double header.

Damn, the Yankees are getting destroyed. 12-0 Indians with 1 out in the 5th.

Why is it black or white, success or failure, Mike? Why can't Eric just be a solid role player -- along the lines of the .280-20-80 that the GM is expecting? Not every club can have a Chavez, Rolen or Beltre over there, and they cost four or five times as much as Hinske even if you can find one.

Why is Menechino playing!!!!!!!!! let the kids play!!!!!!!

One exclamation point is sufficient!

As for Red Sox vs. Yanks (a bit late, I know.) For me, the difference between the two is that the Yankees expect to be hated, whereas the Red Sox expect to be like. The Media jam the Red Sox down our throats to ridiculous proportions; I don't even want to think about what it would be like if they completed some kind of "miraculous comeback."

Hold your breath, and watch Kevin Frederick pitch here in the 6th.

Mike, do you see anything positive, or any signs of hope for the guy?

Some weeks he looks like left-handed Mike Schmidt, other weeks he looks like a slower version of a third-base version of Neifi Perez. He's a hard one to figure out.

but the continued decline in performance seems to be extremely worrying to me.

The weird thing is, it's really not a continued decline in performance. He's up then he's down then he's up and then he's down again. He's possibly the most frustrating hitter on the Jays to watch, so I understand where you're coming from.

If I can politely edge into the discussion about Hinske, without having my head snapped off-are there any signs that Hinske is going to be a .280-20-80 type player at this point? For what it's worth, I think it's pretty clear why he can't be a role player-he's got a contract that, in Toronto anyway, requires him to be more than that. Ask Tom Poti how that works...

I can use version twice in one sentence. How about you?

As his BBFL owner, I want to go on record as saying I am officially cuckoo for Coco Crisp.

If I can politely edge into the discussion about Hinske, without having my head snapped off-are there any signs that Hinske is going to be a .280-20-80 type player at this point?

He's on pace for .253-17-77 this season in a year he's admittedly been struggling. .280-20-80 isn't all that far off!

Coach - on Hinske, I agree completely while he's making $900,000 this year. It's a problem if he's hitting like he has this year and he's making approximately $13 million over the next three years (about 10% of total payroll).

Is 75 pitches really Towers' maximum. It certainly appears to be the case the last 3 or 4 starts. If that's so, I just don't see a role for him next year. Even 5th starters need to suck up some innings occasionally.

Red Sox aren't the only hot team in the majors, Astros up 4-0 after back-to-back-to-back HR from Beltran, Bagwell, and Berkman...that's a lot of B's.

Astros up 4-0 after back-to-back-to-back HR from Beltran, Bagwell, and Berkman...that's a lot of B's.

Where's that slacker Biggio when you need him?

If I can politely edge into the discussion about Hinske, without having my head snapped off

The player "forgot how to hit," you "can't even begin to say how disingenous" the GM is, and the problem is mine? Politeness is as politeness does. If you want respect, state reasonable opinions and be prepared to back them up. Don't come into my living room and pick a fight.

In the last 2 years towers is 17-6 not too many 5 th starters can say that!!!!!!!!

Moffat don't you think it's weird that JP is talking about him in those terms though? Hinske's down numbers this year, even if they end up pro-rating out to .253-17-77 don't seem to have near as much offensive value with his drop in walks and doubles as well. Is JP really happy with him if he's a .280-20-80 guy with a .350 OBP and a .430 slugging at best? I never thought that they signed him thinking that that was the ceiling, and if they did, I don't really get the signing. I guess what I'm saying is that I refuse to believe that when JP signed him he thought he'd already seen the best that Hinske had offensively. It just doesn't make sense.

Things have gotten ugly in Montreal, hockey that is.

The Quebec gentleman himself (Lemieux) is in the penalty box for roughing.

Is JP really happy with him if he's a .280-20-80 guy with a .350 OBP and a .430 slugging at best?

That's not what JP said, particularly the "at best" part.

Hinske looks like a .280-20-80 guy (not at best), and that's right around where his stats will end up this year. The only one Hinske should be any distance away from is the .280, mainly because he's hit about .200 in August.

2002: .201 ISO, 0.56 BB/K, 64 XBH, .118 BB/PA, .279 AVG
2003: .194 ISO, 0.57 BB/K, 60 XBH, .115 BB/PA, .243 AVG

Hinske's decline from 2002 to 2003 was more of a batting average issue than anything else. His power and patience was fairly similar for both seasons, except he had more doubles power in 2003 as opposed to HR power in his rookie year. There was reason for optimisim that with good health, he could keep his ratios in the same general area while increasing his average, which obviously didn't happened.

This year has just been a complete step down.

2004: .131 ISO, 0.52 BB/K, 34 XBH, 0.91 BB/PA, .252 AVG

This average and home runs are up from last year, but everything else is either slightly lower (BB/K) or significantly lower.

His performance next year and for the remainder of his contract will depend entirely on his power, where ever that is hiding this year.

I've got an aversion to using multiple versions of the word version in most sentences, but when versing on versions of Neifi Perez (i.e. third base version or slow version) I can really go to town with several versions.

Rory, Brandon Webb is 5-14 this year so he must be really terrible right?

Here's the quote in question:

I guess I'm in the minority here. I think there have been expectations here that are a little out of whack. We see Eric as a guy who's going to hit .270 to .280, 20 home runs, 70 or 80 RBI.

J.P. isn't talking about upside here, he's talking about what we should see on average.

I realize this country loves hockey like Garfield loves lasagna, but do we really need the World Cup when we already have the Olympics and World Championships?

And hockey in August? Even if the Jays were contending now (I know, I know), they wouldn't get any coverage...it's all about Hockeycentral: World Cup Edition -- every day at 6.

I'm going out on a limb and saying that the Jays bullpen will hold it together tonight, it's just a feeling...

That's the best I've seen Frederick look since he's been brought up. It's hard to know what to make of him. You see occasional flashes of something that makes you see why JP was pretty high on him but most other times his control is poor and he looks pretty hittable.

I realize this country loves hockey like Garfield loves lasagna, but do we really need the World Cup when we already have the Olympics and World Championships?

It is probably overkill. If anything we need to get rid of the awful "World Championships" which lately have turned into "Have more Swedes, Russians, or Finns been on teams that have missed the NHL playoffs?"

I'd gladly go without the World Championships - and about 60% of the NHL season - but quadrennial events involving the best of the best are worth watchi9ng - even if you are TV-less in Chicago

If anything we need to get rid of the awful "World Championships"...

Anyone else remember when Canada sucked at that tournament and people didn't care? They said it was hard to win with the best players still in the playoffs.

Suddenly, we win two in a row and it's a big deal.

That Garfield analogy is from The Simpsons, perhaps someone else remembers the when and where. (I seem to think of the Colonel at the airshow.)

Ah shoot. Now I feel responsible.

Coach,

When a GM who has been here for three years, preaching the gospel of OBP and SLG all the while, says that he's not disappointed with a guy like Hinske, after signing him to a big deal at age 25, and then watching him mysteriously drop 140 points of OPS, I tend to think he's being a bit disingenuous. I refuse to believe that JP, who I think is a pretty sharp cat, committed 15 mil over 5 years to the guy on the basis that he was getting a guy who was going to be a solid role player. I am sure that JP thought, and reasonably I might add, that Hinske was going to at least maintain his level of production. I might buy his statement that he'd be happy with .280-20-80, but that sidesteps the rather large drop in doubles and walks that we've seen as well. JP was sliding around that question, whether you want to accept it or not. I think it speaks to my respect for how smart the guy is that I think he's disingenuous, and not dumb, but you can't honestly tell me you believe that he's happy.

For those of you who are conspiracy minded-JP's comments about how he's happy with Hinske's level of production, and he's getting what he expected have now disappeared from the interview in question. I'd say JP realized how bad and, yes, disingenuous that comment seemed.

My bad, looking at the wrong interview.

If anyone needs to turn off runaway italics, what I do is first open a tag, then close two (or three, just to be safe).

Example:
(i)Italics(/i)(/i)(/i) begone!

using the < > brackets instead.

Right you are, it was Colonel Hapablap at the air show.

Rory - sorry I wasn't very clear. I was only pointing out (poorly obviously) that won-loss records aren't a great way of looking at whether someone is a good pitcher or not.

Moffat - JP's analysis of Hinske is a bit odd - after all I am sure that you can pencil Tony Batista in every year for about .250 20 HR and 80 RBI and you wouldn't want him within 1000 miles of your roster. :)

For those of you who are conspiracy minded-JP's comments about how he's happy with Hinske's level of production, and he's getting what he expected have now disappeared from the interview in question.

What are you talking about? I'm looking at them right now. Second question in part one of the interview.

Yankees are losing 15-0. Maybe that nine run ninth inning was the beginning of the end...somehow.

Moffat - JP's analysis of Hinske is a bit odd - after all I am sure that you can pencil Tony Batista in every year for about .250 20 HR and 80 RBI and you wouldn't want him within 1000 miles of your roster. :)

Hehehehe.. I'm an Expos fan. He's already there. :)

J.P. did say this about Eric:

You look at some of the other facets of his game--his on-base percentage has gone down, which is disappointing.

So he's not "happy" with the entire package.

Ugh! The young arsonist (Chulk) strikes again!

Right. Colonel Leslie "Hap" Hapablap. "I'll tear you up like a Kleenex at a snot party."

Meanwhile, "Winn singled softly to right." Damn that Sportsline. 5-4.

Yeah, Vinny's hit a few bats. The pitches didn't look bad, they just found holes. Still time for a comeback.

"Mike, do you see anything positive, or any signs of hope for the guy?"

I know thats likely ment to the Mr. Moffatt but i'll answer too.

Yes, I see some flashes of a bright future for Hinske, but on the other-hand I also see flashes of journeymen backup in him. If he can give us a two season in a row that are similar maybe we'll be able to make the judgement of weither he's an everyday 3rd basemen or an expensive backup.

Sorry if I messed anything up in terms of spelling but i'm rushing, I gotta go.

When a GM who has been here for three years, preaching the gospel of OBP and SLG all the while

I have never heard JP do this.

I think of all the "Moneyball" GM's, JP is the least Moneyballish. Or at least that's the way he comes across to me.

The two Jays who messed themselves up the most at the plate this year by "trying to do too much" when Wells and Delgado were MIA were Hinske and Phelps. Eric obviously still has power, as demonstrated in Baltimore and again tonight, but his best approach at the plate isn't to swing for the fences. I'd bat him second against righties and tell him to get on base. That's what he did so well in '02, and he was hurt in '03. Those who want to write him off and assume that he has no chance of improving are entitled to their opinions, but they also would have traded Beltre last year (.714 OPS)for a bag of practice balls.

I don't think it was right of the Indians to go for a two-point convert on the second touchdown. 15-love.

can we please get bullpen help its killing me

I think it speaks to my respect for how smart the guy is that I think he's disingenuous, and not dumb, but you can't honestly tell me you believe that he's happy.

I'm missing something here, did you forget to mention that J.P.'s contract says he owes you full disclosure on all issues?

Agreed, Ryan.

"Moneyball", as most people who have never read the book and/or used to play second base in the 1970s assume, is about firing scouts and using stats. McCown refers to it as Idiotball.
Moneyball, the book, is about something very different, something already covered here earlier.

So J.P. is the least "Moneyball"ish, because the man was a scout for how long? However, he is still a Moneyball GM, just not a "Moneyball" one.

Did anyone understand that?

As a non-paying fan, I am fully entitled to full disclosure on all issues

Moffat - my condolances!

I think fan expectations of Hinske were unfairly hiehgten by his fine rookie year. I can say he really exceeded my expectations - by a mile. I never thought he would hit for average. Figured something in the .260 - .265 range but he could take a walk and had a bit of pop. Whats wrong with 20 homer seasons on a regular basis.

Eric is reminding me of Travis Fryman in the early ninties. People always figured his performance did not meet expectations and then he stopped running. Still though Fryman had a very very nice career when it was all said and done.

Johnny, I'm not saying that JP owes me or anyone full disclosure. I'm saying that when he doesn't do it, and it's obvious, I'm within my rights to say that he's disingenuous. Compared to other GM's he's an open book on most issues. I cheer for the Edmonton Oilers, the team that's always going to have talks with Veteran X, who's about to make $9 million a year. JP is usually pretty upfront-ie. no arbitration for Carlos, which is why that comment stuck out to me.

Randy Winn: A centerfielder with a leftfielder's arm. I suspect Alex Rios would have scored on that play.

Indeed. Thank you Alex

Lefty, that's a great comparison. Hinske's capable of being a useful big-leaguer at a scarce position for many more years, but he's not going to the Hall of Fame. And as I said earlier, $15 million over five years is a tiny fraction of what a Rolen gets.

Tie ball game with yet another clutch 2-out hit.

Terrific baserunning by Delgado scores a run! How many times can you say that??? Nice baserunning by Rios too to get himself into scoring position. Rios is so darn good. He hits the ball hard all the time. That was something that struck me when I was in the 'Dome this weekend-he stings it...a lot on the ground, but he still hits the ball on the nose a whole lot.

Right on, Dr. Z. Excellent job by RSN and Cerutti to show the viewers how Delgado's hustle on the Hinske fly ball set up that run.

I'm a little ashamed to admit that I expected Carlos to get thrown out. Kudos to him though. Great play. And Frankie M draws another walk. 4-for-4 in PA's isn't bad for a veteran that hardly ever plays and was picked up by JP for virtually nothing.

Whew! Last year Edgar gets all of that one, and Bucky just missed. It's not Ligtenberg's night, Gibby -- go get him before it's too late.

Ligtenberg vs. Ichiro was a mismatch. That's my first second-guess of Gibbons, and it was a first-guess, before Kerry even walked Cabrera.

Good call Coach.

Ichiro vs. Anyone is a mismatch with the way he's been hitting lately. "Slap hitter" or not, the guy can just dominate.

Gibby's faith in his players has achieved mostly positive results, with O-Dog as the most prominent example, but I would have preferred to see Speier pitch two innings in a tie game, especially at home. Justin definitely had a better chance to retire Ichiro. There's no absolute right or wrong in bullpen management, but the quick hook when they're bad and staying with them when they're good makes the most sense.

I think Gibbons wanted to hold Ligtenberg accountable. It was his mess and he needed to get out of it. He did. So what if they lose the game. Kerry just learned something about his manager and likewise i suspect. And thats not a bad thing since they might be on the same team next year.

No argument, Lefty. The manager showed confidence in his player, and that builds trust. I just didn't like KL's chances after his first two batters and would have got Speier ready ASAP, because tonight's game was still winnable. It isn't over yet, of course.

Yikes, Vernon is really scuffling since returning from his few days off. That makes him 0-20. Atchison really lucked out with that GIDP on a hanging breaking ball. Pretty nice sequence to Vernon though, which is always how it goes when you're struggling-he walks two, leaves a hanger to another, but gives you his best.

My thinking is that the whole bullpen is a little tender right now and lacking in confidence. Speier may have come in and allowed the pressure to get to him and the runners may have scored anyway, considering it was Ichiro at the plate.

I think he wanted KL to finish it and have Speier start the next inning fresh if they were still within a a run. But thats assuming Frasor is the closer still and on that count i have no idea anymore.

Another terrific DP start by Hudson. It's so fun to watch him play.

Carlos and Eric can't be going for homers here. They need baserunners and a Rios double.

Ah, tough loss. Rios stung the ball again though, in making that final ou. Is it just me, or has he ended more than his share of games?

Yes, Rios clearly made the last ou. Perhaps ouT.

A Victor Martinez HR makes makes the score 22-0 now in NY. Wowzers. The last slew of runs were given up by none other than Loaiza in his first relief stint. It didn't go well:

6 ER, 8 HA, 2 BBI, 18.000 ERA, 3.0 INN, 3 K, 3.333 WHIP

Oh, well. We can pin another loss on the bullpen, but Towers' pitch to Lopez was the real turning point, and Josh's tendency to hit the wall all of a sudden remains a concern. Maybe some other club will value that impressive W-L record and trade for him. Too bad Joe Morgan's not a GM.

Well, congrats to Bob File for becoming the first Toronto reliever to pitch a scoreless inning since Justin Speier on Friday.

Dr Zarco,
I commented to my wife at the end of the game that Rios seems to be the final out in every game. It's wierd karma or something.

$180 million payroll and you have to give the ball to Sturtze and Loaiza on the same night? In a pennant race? Wowzers indeed. The dynamic duo combined for 13 earned runs.

Omar Vizquel nearly went 7-for-7 in a 9-inning game. He settled for "only" six hits.

Lefty, that's a great comparison. Hinske's capable of being a useful big-leaguer at a scarce position for many more years, but he's not going to the Hall of Fame. And as I said earlier, $15 million over five years is a tiny fraction of what a Rolen gets.

Coach, c'mon. You know that's a bad comp- Hinske's in his first few years, while Rolen has signed a huge contract. The fair comp is between Rolen's first six years and Hinske's. I'd bet Rolen didn't make much more than Hinske in those 6 years for much better production. If Hinske doesn't rebound, even you have to admit that contract will be hurting the team. I really hope he comes back strong- it's always seemed like he was best suited to be a #2 hitter (if he can start walking again), but Hudson's settled in there nicely and they don't have any power to replace him in the #5 slot.

The Republicans are here, and I just watched a few hundred people get arrested in Union Square, so I'm edgy and will stop talking about Hinske.

Hey, how about Phelps? He entered the game in a strange manner:

Bernie Williams [batting]: Ball, Strike looking, Foul, Foul, John McDonald at third, Josh Phelps at first, Williams grounded out to pitcher.

Did the second foul ball hurt one of the Cleveland players? Why would they make two substitutions in the middle of the at bat?

Has anyone noticed that if we keep up our losing ways through this weekend, we could be close to dropping below Seattle in the race for the bottom? The lower we go on this horrible season, the better the draft pick!!

It is not all bad what is happening here.

Of course, the challenge is that the owners might decide that, the worse the final record, the less likely it is that the fans will come out next year, so that they should provide even less of a budget for salaries.

What do I want to have happen, exactly?

Well the best player in this years draft is justin upton but he is a high school player. The best pitcher is andrew miller and he is a so from north carlina.The best college player is tyler greene and he is a ss. So it should be interesting what JP does

The more important question is will the Jays go for a position player or a pitcher. Its very early to project players for next years draft its easier to speculate what type of player the Jays are looking for.

Is Rios having a terrific rookie season or what?

Weighing in on the Hinske debate...I still think Hinske can rebound, especially in a stronger Jays lineup. You know, he isn't that far off from having a decent season. He's tanked a bit in August, but he did have an .822 OPS in June, and an .836 OPS in July. As for his position in the lineup, I agree that batting second would be ideal. He hits from the left side, has shown a propensity to walk (well--in the past), with doubles and occasional home run power (ok--also in the past), and can run the bases decently.

I think a 270-280 average, 20 HR, and 80 RBI is quite respectable from your #2 hitter. Of course, you'd like to see him score 100+ runs too. On the other hand, 20 HR and 80 RBI from your #5 hitter is probably not enough production.

Incidentally, what's wrong with having high expectations for Hinske (and, for that matter, the team)? He's only 27, he had a great rookie season two seasons ago, he was injured for much of last year, and he has a $15M, five year contract. Until this year, he was regularly described as one of the cornerstones around which the Jays would be rebuilt (along with Wells, Halladay, and Hudson). Moreover, he's our everyday third baseman--a key defensive and offensive position. Bordick, Menenchino, Gomez, Zaun--those are role players. Not Hinske. Not yet, anyway. Or else the Jays are in a lot of trouble.

Well, in the race for the bottom...er, in the draft sweepstakes, the Jays would pick fourth if the season ended today.

Dan you are right its hard to project players.But JP not taking high school kids and if justin upton is on the board he has got to take him.

I don't think its so much a problem with taking hs kids, its what do the blue jays need or need more of, another position player or pitcher. I completely agree...if the best player out there is college then take college but if its hs...you have to go for it.

The one thing the bluejays need more than anything is bullpen help.The best college pitcher in the draft as of know is
Mike Pelfrey from Wichita State.With purcey and zackson this year and with pelfrey seems real good.

Ryan Lind -- I'll agree with the congrats to Bob File, however Kevin Frederick pitched the scoreless 6th inning tonight. I think he should have been left to finish off the 7th, or at least to face one more batter after that infield single. Perhaps Gibbons knew something I didn't about the situation, but I'd have preferred to see Frederick remain out there.

"Well the best player in this years draft is justin upton but he is a high school player. The best pitcher is andrew miller and he is a so from north carlina.The best college player is tyler greene and he is a ss. So it should be interesting what JP does"

I don't think Andrew Miller is eligible for this year's draft. The best pitcher is Mike Pelfrey (Boras client). It is also probably a stretch to call Tyler Greene the best college player (although he did have a good Cape). Jeff Clement, Alex Gordon, John Mayberry, Jed Lowrie are all up there as well along with a few others.

It is also probably a stretch to call Tyler Greene the best college player

I'd say it's flat-out wrong. Jed Lowrie is the best college player in my view, but most others would have Pelfrey, Mayberry, or Alex Gordon. Greene would make my Top 100, because he's a fine defender at short, but two full college seasons have not demonstrated that he can hit at a professional level.

Greene hit .274 last year, which is 17 points below the NCAA average. That's really bad; Joey Metropoulos, who the Jays took in the 9th round this past year, had a horrible, brutal off-year for USC this past season. He still hit .286 with considerably more patience and power than Greene.

Greene's average as a freshman was .316, and he hit a few home runs. He's got a little power, which is good, but his strike-zone judgment for a top-class college player is terrible. Greene took 30 walks and struck out 63 times last season. Striking out more than a quarter of the time against college pitchers is not a good sign at all, especially when you don't hit for power (Greene slugged .432, for an ISO of .158, about half what the good hitters do)

To be frank, the most advanced offensive skill that Greene showed last year was getting hit by pitches. As I said, he's a fine defender (though not in the class of someone like Dustin Pedroia, who pushed Greene to third base for the Pan Am Games last summer) so he would probably crest my Top 100, especially after a fine Cape season. He also made a ton of errors as a freshman, though he did very, very well last year.

He could easily move into the Top 10 or better if he displays the kind of talent everyone knows he's got. But if he can't get it done, I'd have to call him a guy who looks good in practice but can't get it done with the bat in his hands and the fans in the stands.

Lowrie had a down summer with the bat for USA Baseball (though better than Mayberry), hitting just .230 but he did show good power and good command of the strike zone, so all was not lost. He also played a good second base by all accounts and went 5-for-5 stealing bases. The top guy whose summer really pushed him forward was Alex Gordon of Nebraska. Team USA's best hitter was Ryan Zimmerman of Virginia, a very ordinary hitter last year (543rd in my hitter rankings, about 300 places ahead of Greene who rankes 839th, and 542 places behind Jed Lowrie :). Zimmerman hit .468/.517/.805 with 17 extra-base hits in 18 starts (24 games in all).

Just noticed an ouch on Tyler Greene. He was 2nd overall in the Cape League in errors with 16 in 32 games at short, leading all shortstops by a long way. Not a good sign.

Craig b -if the season ended today and the jays had the 4th pick who so they take in your opinion? tyler greene was rated the second best player in the cape code according to baseball america. And the errors well jeter made like 50 in a ball and bj upton is not a great fielder and the same for juston.Tyler is a 5 tool player in he should not last after top 10 picks.

Rory,

At this point you have to think that Greene is more hype than performance. If a guy can't hit well in college the odds are against him ever being a major league hitter.

I'm not saying it's not impossible for Greene to become a star, but the main idea of drafting college players is that it's easier to project what they'll do in the minors and eventually in the majors (because their stats are much more meaningful than those of high school players and because they are older and therefore closer to the player they'll eventually become).

If you're going to go for such a raw, speculative talent, why not just draft a high schooler?

i really dont think greene ir raw . He battered over 300 as a freshman he had a bad year last year but he seemed to bounce back in the cape league.In the cape code league Greene becomes the fifth Cardinal to win the McNeece Award since its inception in 1976. The two most recent recipients are Russ Adams of North Carolina (2001) and Mark Teixiera of Georgia Tech (1999) who each won the award while playing their home games at Eldredge Park.