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You know it's been a bad season when you look to Howard Jones for inspiration. Yesterday brought a fifth straight loss for the Jays, the latest an 18-6 home-field humiliation at the bats of the dreaded Yankees. It seems that taking a 4-0 lead over the New Yorkers only serves to get their attention.

But the fact is, things really can't get worse for Toronto. At this point, the games are as much mental as they are played out on the field, and the mental games are winnable.


The Jays are no doubt embarrassed this morning. But embarrassment is entirely a self-imposed state, and once you realize you're only gnawing on your own sense of injured pride, it's easier to overcome it and move on. In the end, yesterday's debacle registers as just another L in the books, no different than the ones the Jays have posted in much closer games earlier this week against these two powerhouse teams; even this match was close till the ninth inning.

The Blue Jays may be headed for 100 losses, but I don't feel like this is a 100-loss team at heart. Second-hand accounts from the clubhouse don't tell close to the whole story, but there seems to be more exasperation and bewilderment in there than there is hopelessness or when-will-the-season-end-itis. These guys know they're not as bad as this, and are probably as baffled as the fans are. John Gibbons seems to be taking the right approach: unhappy but not panicky, determined but not grim. He paid tribute to Kerry Ligtenberg, a classy move, and Ligtenberg himself took several blows for the team in the ninth and still faced reporters afterwards; give the man credit for that. These things count in the long run, which is where the Jays have now fixed their sights.

For Toronto fans inclined towards grim thoughts of their own this morning, I suggest taking a look at another team from which much was expected last year: the San Diego Padres. With a middle-budget mix of young talent and veteran support under the direction of an innovative young GM, the Padres were expected to be a surprise contender: instead, bad luck, a lack of depth and a boatload of injuries decimated them as they went 64-98. Today, the Padres are 70-59 and 5 games back of the division lead. I'm not predicting that position for the Blue Jays next year, but I want to demonstrate that the road to contention is never smooth, and if enough things go wrong (as they did for Toronto this year), the results can be catastrophic without scuttling the future altogether.

There is talent on this team, and heart. True, numerous positions on the 25-man roster are filled with players lacking one or the other of these key attributes, and I imagine those players have been identified by the front office at this point. I anticipate a busy October and November at Skydome. But as many things as have gone poorly this year, many others have gone well:

- Orlando Hudson is still on track to blossom into one of the league's best second basemen.
- Ted Lilly has been a widly successful investment, beyond the most optimistic forecasts.
- Alex Rios has had an extremely solid rookie season, and is surviving the adjustment period well.
- Jason Frasor has been a gift, and with more stamina and better usage, can help out in the bullpen.
- Dave Bush has had a very strong debut and projects to be a solid third or fourth starter next year.

Not many 100-loss teams can boast those kinds of solid developments. Throw in the major-league experience gained by players like Gabe Gross and Vinny Chulk, and there are genuine signs of hope. Even the bad news has silver linings: Roy Halladay is resting and recuperating during this lost season in order to come back strong next year, and Carlos Delgado's departure will allow for more than one position to be shored up considerably. This team may lose 100 games this year, but I will bet anyone who's so inclined that they will not lose 100 next year.

So take a deep breath, forget about yesteray's game if you haven't already, and get ready for today's match, Miguel Batista versus Mike Mussina. And if the Yankees should sweep the Jays today, why, wish them all the best as they leave. Because payback time is coming for the Blue Jays and their fans, and it will be fun when it gets here.
Game 131: Things Can Only Get Better | 113 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_coliver - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 12:08 PM EDT (#38568) #
Yesterday, while watching the final inning of the Yankee rout. I felt a feeling that I havent had with the Jays since pre-strike 1981: Hopelessness. However, after reading this blog, Gideon reminds me that all is not lost, thank you.

After Lightenberg's appearance I was pleased to see the team unity, led by the O-Dog, on the mound. You can tell that Kerry was shellshocked, but these things happen sometimes.

Frankie's appearance was interesting--everytime I see him I expect him to say, "Yo, u wanna play some stickball?".

Wonder what the alumni felt. Lou Thornton must have been thinking, "I would be a sear on this club"!

Well, I am off to Buffalo to see Russ Adams, Eric Crozier, and the Syracuse Chiefs take on the Buffalo Bisons.
_coliver - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 12:09 PM EDT (#38569) #
whoops: sear=star
_Bird Watcher - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 12:17 PM EDT (#38570) #
Coliver, why bother - they'll all be in Toronto by Wednesday !!
Dave Till - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 12:47 PM EDT (#38571) #
Yesterday brought a fifth straight loss for the Jays, the latest an 18-6 home-field humiliation at the bats of the dreaded Yankees.

The one thing that I got out of yesterday's game was that the Jays didn't give up. Before the 9th inning onslaught, the Jays actually had the tying run at the plate in the bottom of the 8th.

Their biggest problem right now is that the front end of their bullpen is mostly worn out - physically and mentally - and the back end of their bullpen isn't very good. Once they fall behind, and bring somebody like Maurer in, the runs are going to pile up.
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 12:51 PM EDT (#38572) #
Lineup:

R. Johnson cf
O. Hudson 2b
V. Wells dh
C. Delgado 1b
A. Rios rf
E. Hinske 3b
G. Zaun c
G. Gross lf
C. Gomez ss
Dave Till - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 12:59 PM EDT (#38573) #
In case you're not watching or listening: the game is delayed due to a power outage at SkyDome. It was apparently a thunderstorm. It's not a large-scale blackout - power is on at Broadview and Danforth, where I live. No word on when power will be restored.
Dave Till - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 01:04 PM EDT (#38574) #
More on the power outage: a generator near the SkyDome caught fire, so residents in the area have been without power since noon. Fans who were outside when the power went out have not been allowed in to the park (a crowd of 50,000+ was expected for today's game).

So I suppose things could be worse than they were yesterday :-).

And it just came back on! w00t!
_DaveInNYC - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#38575) #
Okay, so the power's back.

How long till the game actually starts now?

I would assume around 2 maybe? They have to get everyone into the stadium, and if the estimated 50,000 or so is correct, that could take a while.
_Magpie - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#38576) #
Posting from the press box. Paul Godfrey just told us that they have the computers up and running, they're letting the rest of the fans into the building and they expect the game to start within an hour.
Dave Till - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 01:24 PM EDT (#38577) #
On the radio, they said that the game will start at 2:15.
_Cristian - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 01:24 PM EDT (#38578) #
Haven't the Jays been suffering from a power outage all year? It's too late in the year to do anything about it now.

I kill me!
_Magpie - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#38579) #
They're saying start time will be 2:15 now.
_Magpie - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#38580) #
Tom Cheek is being added to the Level of Excellence today, for those who didn't know.

Dave Mauer is gone, Bob File is back.
robertdudek - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#38581) #
Hijack ...

So much for security in Athens:

During the marathon someone ran onto the course and pushed the leading runner into the crowd just 15 minutes from the finish. The runner emerged with an injured leg and instead of winning the race, he finished third.
_Neal Smith - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 02:27 PM EDT (#38582) #
I'm based in the UK and man o man i wish i was there for the Tom Cheek thing. Does anyone have any pictures? Was anyone there?
_smarchee - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 02:28 PM EDT (#38583) #
wow, that is crazy about the Olympics, wow
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 02:35 PM EDT (#38584) #
Wilner's doing play-by-play, since Tom & Jerry have to work their way up from field level.

...Tom's in the booth now, and Mike wants to give up the mike. Tom won't let him. ;)
_DaveInNYC - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#38585) #
SPARKY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Come on, these guys have to win it for Tom today... if not for themselves after getting shelled just yesterday.
_Jim - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 02:44 PM EDT (#38586) #
The Tom Cheek ceremony was on YES. He seemed a bit uncomfortable with the whole thing.
_Scott Levy - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 02:57 PM EDT (#38587) #
Trade (BB)atista. Please.
_A - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 02:59 PM EDT (#38588) #
He seemed a bit uncomfortable with the whole thing.

Aside from the fact that sitting in a radio booth you're rarely ever subjected to public appreciation, the man's been on Chemo for a while now. That stuff takes everything out of you. That he's able to be at a ceremony like this and hold even a light workload shows Cheek's tremendous determination in fighting off the cancer. As someone living with cancer in the family, Tom has been an absolute inspiration.
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#38589) #
That Edgar Gonzalez in Arizona is doing rather well today...
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 03:12 PM EDT (#38590) #
Jeter is responsible for four outs in two AB's now. Nice.
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 03:12 PM EDT (#38591) #
Forget it, Rodriguez homers and it's tied. 1-1, top 3.
_DaveInNYC - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 03:14 PM EDT (#38592) #
Geez Batista has been awful so far. Awful and lucky.

5 hits, 2 bb's, 1 hr

Yet he's only allowed 1 run?

This guy has completely fallen apart at the seems as of late.
_DaveInNYC - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#38593) #
That Edgar Gonzalez in Arizona is doing rather well today...

As soon as you typed that, Felipe Lopez breaks up the no-no with a single.

Gotta love Felipe...
_Magpie - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#38594) #
He seemed a bit uncomfortable with the whole thing.

He would be. He has the real quaint and old-fashioned notion that the game is the thing...
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 03:17 PM EDT (#38595) #
Never mind on Gonzalez. He gave up a single in the 7th to everyone's favourite ex-SS prospect, Felipe Lopez.
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#38596) #
I started Mussina today in the BBFL Leftovers. So I guess I want a great seven innings from him, then the Jays can go to town in innings 8 and 9.

Please, Batista, do not make Dave Berg pitch tonight.
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#38597) #
Quiet day here today. I should have gone to the Dome to hang out with the 30000 Yankee fans.
_DaveInNYC - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 03:45 PM EDT (#38598) #
Vernon is now 0 for his last 25 against right handed pitchers. I'm not a hitting coach by any means, but it seems to me that Vernon's approach is entirely out of whack. He's hacking at 2-0 curveballs that aren't hanging curves and he's not going the other way with fastballs out on the outside corner of the plate. Instead he's just rolling over softly and grounding out to third or short. When Vernon's hot, he's spraying doubles to right center and hitting moonballs to left... lately there hasn't been any of that.

And Eric just continues to get himself out. Probably gets himself out the most out of any Blue Jay. Always rolling over and grounding out weakly, way out in front on most breaking balls. Where is the Eric Hinske from 2002?

Batista has settled down and it looks like this game is turning into a pitcher's duel.
_DaveInNYC - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#38599) #
God Eric Hinske has no range.

Even an average third basemen (in terms of range) makes that play on the A-Rod "single".

Mussina is dominating today, so a run should be hard to get.
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:06 PM EDT (#38600) #
Where is the Eric Hinske from 2002?

Probably stuck in 2002.
_Scott Levy - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#38601) #
Mussina is filthy today.

At least Batista looks like he can go 7, limiting the bull($hit)pen to 2 innings.
Coach - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#38602) #
Tom has been an absolute inspiration.

Congratulations to Tom Cheek, who really has inspired more people than he knows and truly deserves all the accolades. Tom is well aware of the messages posted on this site by well-wishers, and you are all included in the "everyone" he thanked. Great job by the Jays and Jerry on the ceremony, covered superbly on both TV and radio.

the road to contention is never smooth

Yeah, hurdles get in the way sometimes. Please forgive my absence, everyone. I haven't had the energy or concentration to write and I apologize for ignoring e-mail. It's been necessary to step back until I'm feeling better -- soon, I hope.

What I have missed just as much as Da Box is going to the games; especially today. Once again, the Jays are playing well, hanging in against a superior opponent. Reed Johnson has been making a statement lately off some good RH pitchers. Alex Rios is a keeper, too.

Scott Levy is entitled to his impatient opinion(s) but has no idea of what Batista has been pitching "through" lately. I like the June and July version just fine, and Miguel has battled again this afternoon. DaveInNYC also expects perfection from someone who is physically sub-par, but he expects it from everyone, every AB, hence his almost constant disappointment. The whiners, doubters, knockers and assorted pundits of despair who are having more fun than they would care to admit this season ignore the circumstances and overlook the farm system as if the foreseeable future was carved into the 2004 box scores and the current standings.

payback time is coming for the Blue Jays and their fans

Imagine how exciting the games would have been this week if Doc and Vernon were at full strength and Miller was the long man. That was the only way they could have been competitive: if the three superstars came close to repeating their 2003 and the bargain supporting cast was a bit better.

It didn't happen. The sky isn't falling. Bring on the September callups -- I'd like to see Q catch a few games and observe Adams' defence by watching. Can somebody please tell me if it's Crow-Zher or Crow-Zeer?
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:23 PM EDT (#38603) #
I can probably speak on behalf on most of the Bauxites when I say "We've missed you, Coach." I was actually wondering yesterday if there was something wrong, as I hadn't seen you post here in awhile. Hope everything is okay.

And Carlos welcomes you back with a fourth-deck blast! 2-2 tie.
Pistol - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:23 PM EDT (#38604) #
No doubt about that one......
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:24 PM EDT (#38605) #
Wilner said it was headed right for the Cheek banner. I don't have TV on right now, was it that close?
_DaveInNYC - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#38606) #
Finally a hanging curveball gets crushed.

Did some of the fans leave after the blackout? Because it hardly seems like there are 50,000 people in attendance today. I would say around 35,000 to 40,000 which is still a great crowd although most are Yankee fans.

As far as "expecting" perfection every AB... that's not even close to the truth. I've played baseball my entire life, through college, etc. and I know how tough of a game it is. To expect perfection would be rediculous, but I do expect to see effort and hard work from the players, and part of hard work is watching the film and making adjustments. Wells finally had a good AB against Mussina just now and took the ball to right field and pretty deep, just too bad it wasn't deep enough.

And I am having fun this season. It's fun watching a guy like Rios play balls out, making game saving catches, crashing into walls, making adjustments and continue to succeed at the plate. That's fun to watch, it's not fun to watch a 15 million dollar player continue to struggle meanwhile his struggles center around doing the same thing over and over.

I understand how good this team will be in a few years, I understand that the farm system is loaded, I just don't think all of the fans should have to sit and watch and be okay with the team losing 100 games. Some people can do that, others can't.
_Jim - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#38607) #
'Aside from the fact that sitting in a radio booth you're rarely ever subjected to public appreciation, the man's been on Chemo for a while now. That stuff takes everything out of you. That he's able to be at a ceremony like this and hold even a light workload shows Cheek's tremendous determination in fighting off the cancer. As someone living with cancer in the family, Tom has been an absolute inspiration.'

I didn't mean he looked uncomfortable in a negative way. He just looked like someone who wasn't comfortable with such a public ceremony. I wasn't being critical of him in any way shape or form.
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:31 PM EDT (#38608) #
Take that, Moose! The rookie chases him from the game.
Coach - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#38609) #
I am fine, thanks, Rob. It's like Berg in 2003, some temporary dizziness and I'll be back to my normal utility role shortly.

Good old Carlos. He's probably pricing himself out of town, but I'm thrilled to see him back to normal, not just for his next contract. If the Walrus is going to compete in the playoffs, we need Delgado to carry the team, and now he has some off-season BBFL trade value.

Excellent comeback.
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:34 PM EDT (#38610) #
Off-topic:

Pujols hit HR #40 in the 8th inning in Pittsburgh. Looks like he avoided the EA Sports cover jinx.
Pistol - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:39 PM EDT (#38611) #
I like what I see
Coach - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#38612) #
DEE-FENCE!
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#38613) #
Woohoo! I should really be watching this on TV.

What's that, an error on Jetes? ;)
_NYJaysFan36 - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:48 PM EDT (#38614) #
Holy crap, I come back to the states and now the Jays are hanging a 6-2 on "the team?" Aaron, it was cool to see the O-Drum. Your drummer was very good. We were in 532 directly across from you guys. Some of the most effective stuff were his rolls. By the time they got across the stadium it sounded like a stampeding herd.
One thing of interest, when you were trying to distract Brown on the hill with the short blasts, I fear because of the distance of the mound from the O-drum, Brown didn't hear it until after the ball was released. In 532 we'd hear those noises after the pitch was past the batter...just something to keep in mind.
Something else that I agonized over was whether or not to purchase an authentic Hentgen jersey outside the bullpen store. They were marked down to $60 from $160. They were real sharp, but I decided to stick with my game-worn Bob File. They also had Phelps, but Hentgen was a Jay to the end...as it were. haha
Hopefully I'll get over for the D-Rays game on September 18. I hope 18-6 and having to deal with the Yankee fans who swarmed the Delta Chelsea and the High-Speed Ferry won't be my last 2004 Jays memories.
_Moffatt - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:49 PM EDT (#38615) #
How is the ferry? I moved away from Rochester just a few months before it was completed, so I have yet to ride it.
_Mike Forbes - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#38616) #
Anyone else think that the bullpen might just need a little bit of help in the offseason?
_Mike in CT - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#38617) #
I hate watching this bullpen work. I've never seen such a complete collection of pitchers who could not get people out.
_My Names not Ry - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#38618) #
Now speier is doing his annoint me as the stopper, i aint no stopper routine
_Loveshack - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#38619) #
Cmon guys, just 4 outs to go!
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 04:59 PM EDT (#38620) #
Who pitches the ninth? Frasor?
_Moffatt - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#38621) #
I hate watching this bullpen work. I've never seen such a complete collection of pitchers who could not get people out.

Watched any Indians games lately? Or the 2003 edition of this same club?

I agree with the sentiment, though. In the late inning I always feel like the Jays are still the underdogs even if they're up by 4 or 5 runs.
_Scott Levy - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#38622) #
Scott Levy is entitled to his impatient opinion(s) but has no idea of what Batista has been pitching "through" lately. I like the June and July version just fine, and Miguel has battled again this afternoon.

Trading a 33year old starter who is having the worst peripheral numbers of his career, but has enough value based on ERA to get a good return is being impatient? I thought it was being smart.

Coming into today, Batista had a 4.90 K/9 (4.72 after today), 1.19 K/BB (1.16 after today), 4.12 BB/9 (4.06 after today), .753 opponents OPS, and 8.94 H/9 (same after today). His hits allowed is fairly close to what he did last year, but he's striking out a lot less, walking a lot more, and giving up slightly more home runs. Oh yeah, and he's 33 going on 34. And there's that pesky $4.5M he's owed for the next two seasons.

There's impatience and there's seeing performance for what it is worth. Lack of strike outs would be a red flag for every other pitcher (see Towers, Josh). Why ignore it with Miguel Batista?
_vic - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:08 PM EDT (#38623) #
here we go again...

home run posada.

6-4 and the game is far from over.
_CaramonLS - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#38624) #
*watches a wheel fly off the wagon*
Mike D - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#38625) #
I agree with the sentiment

I also agree with the sentiment. All things considered, the Jays' offence, defence and starting pitching have done enough to win this game. Let's see if it happens.
_Donkit R.K. - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#38626) #
That was a FAT pitch for Jorge...
Coach - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#38627) #
Of course, fans are expecting to lose, we're used to heartbreak this season. At least this is another exciting finish -- they may be overmatched, but there's no surrender in the Fighting Jays.

There's no magic formula to building a bullpen, nor some amount of money that guarantees consistent performance from year to year. See the Yankees' revolving LOOGY door. Maybe Justin Miller will make a Gagne-esque conversion next year and become a star. If Frasor can master a splitter or gain confidence in the change he'll have a nice career.

Scott, the value of trading Batista depends entirely on who they get in return. If it's an irresistably talented, younger, cheaper proven starter I'm all in favour. Otherwise, why go fishing in the FA pool or gamble on a prospect to replace him when it's so hard to predict performance?

Way to battle back, Jason. Use the off-speed stuff more.
_Scott Levy - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#38628) #
Nice K on Lofton. 94 mph heater.

One more out, Derek Jeter up.
Pistol - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:13 PM EDT (#38629) #
Trading a 33year old starter who is having the worst peripheral numbers of his career, but has enough value based on ERA to get a good return is being impatient?

Yes, I suspect that any team interested in trading for Batista would look only at his ERA when evaluating him and ignore everything else.
_NYJaysFan36 - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#38630) #
Moffatt,

The Ferry is pretty nice. Unfortunately the operations over in Toronto are only temporary and are nowhere near as smooth as the Port of Rochester terminal. It was tough having packed boats this weekend. Really stretched the staff thin, as a result, I just barely made it to Friday's game on time. (part of that involved Yankee fans who just assume hotel rooms will be waiting for them because they were born in NYC and hold up the check-in) I do understand that ground was finally broken closer to the inner harbor for the permananet Toronto terminal so that is good. It works to your advantage the longer you plan on staying since you don't have to pay anywhere from $18-25 CAD per night on parking if you didn't bring a car. The ride is quick and pretty luxurious. 2 movie theaters, wireless internet, duty free on-board, etc, etc.
That Jeter throw into right field made my day. Almost as much as the Umpire of today's game finally standing up to that pretty-boy @sshole and calling a strike on his sad attempt at bunting the ball while lunging over the plate. He won't be able to presumptiously ask for time incessantly while already in the box for no other reason than to gain more of an advantage for himself.
Tell us how you really feel, Bob! hahaha

-Bob
_CaramonLS - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#38631) #
Is Menachenio available for today?
_Jim - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:18 PM EDT (#38632) #
'Yes, I suspect that any team interested in trading for Batista would look only at his ERA when evaluating him and ignore everything else.'

I would guess that the majority of teams are much more sophicated then that.
_Loveshack - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#38633) #
WOOOOOHOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
Coach - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:19 PM EDT (#38634) #
Well, that was fun!

Nice call by Zaun on the 1-1 change. Matsui thought it was a high heater. Then he was off-balance on the breaking pitch.
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#38635) #
Anyone else notice how relieved the O-Dog was after he caught that?
_Scott Levy - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#38636) #
Yes, I suspect that any team interested in trading for Batista would look only at his ERA when evaluating him and ignore everything else.

Absolutely. He's signed for two more years, he's going to finish with 200 innings, and an ERA in the mid-4.00's, possibly 12-14 wins. I can name many teams that would be interested in Batista, and give up something nice for him in the process. The Mets just dealt their best pitching prospect for a younger Batista with better stuff (more walks, more K's, equal amount of HRA, similar ERA). We're not going to get a Kazmir for Batista, but I'd suspect we'd get something that would help us. Save a bunch, too.
_Jim - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#38637) #
4.5 games. Getting interesting.

At least I thought so, then I looked at the schedule. Nevermind.
Before the Yankees and Red Sox meet on Sept 17th New York has:
At Home:
Cleveland (3)
Baltimore (3)
Tampa Bay (5)
Then
At:
Baltimore (3)
Kansas City (3)

11-6 or 12-5 is quite realistic and is going to make catching them nearly impossible as Boston faces Anaheim, Texas and Oakland over the next 10 days.
_Loveshack - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:33 PM EDT (#38638) #
Good job by the Jays in this series. I know they lost 3 of 4, but against a superior team with quadruple the payroll they hung in and didnt give them any easy wins. Game one tied going into the 9th, Game two a 1 run ballgame, Game three they were still in it going into the 9th when the bullpen 'blowed up real good', and of course winning today. A lucky bounce here or there, an umpire's call going the other way, and the Jays could have won 3 games this series instead of 1.
_Scott - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:42 PM EDT (#38639) #
http://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/ny-spflash293946782aug29,0,2063982.column?coll=ny-sports-columnists
An interesting comment about Delgado from a Mets official. COMN.
_Useless Tyler - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#38640) #
One thing of interest, when you were trying to distract Brown on the hill with the short blasts, I fear because of the distance of the mound from the O-drum, Brown didn't hear it until after the ball was released. In 532 we'd hear those noises after the pitch was past the batter...just something to keep in mind.

Yeah - other people feared that as well, but the results spoke for themselves. Of all the times that the distraction drumming occurred, Brown only had two strikes - one of which was a foul ball.
_R Billie - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:49 PM EDT (#38641) #
Considering the Mets traded Scott Kazmir for a mid-rotation starter, I don't think their priorities in evaluating players are in order. If other teams see Delgado that way then it just improves his chances for returning to Toronto.
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#38642) #
Yeah, who cares if other teams don't like Delgado? It's not like they would give Toronto anything for him anyway.
_Loveshack - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:53 PM EDT (#38643) #
"Ordinarily, he'd be on our radar screen," one Mets official said, "but the guy didn't want to be traded to a contending team ... come on."

How did this become the story? Unless Im mistaken I thought Delgado's position was always that he would accept a trade anywhere, just not if it was only going to be for 2-3 months.
robertdudek - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:55 PM EDT (#38644) #
Batista is one off-speed pitch away from being a dominant starter. I'm serious.

The reason he hasn't struck out a lot of guys is that most of his stuff is the same speed. But the movement on his stuff is exceptional (hence the walks) and he can throw 94-96 on most nights. If he comes up with a splitter and trusts his four-seamer more he can be one of the top starters in the AL.

The raw material is there for a leap forward and plenty of pitchers in mid-career have made that leap by learning a new pitch and junking an old one.

So quit harping on K/W ratio as the be all and end all and take a look at what the pitcher is actually throwing on the mound.
_CaramonLS - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 05:58 PM EDT (#38645) #
Well Loveshack certain people tend to only look at certain elements of a story. They only look at the fact he refused a trade to LA before the deadline.
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 06:01 PM EDT (#38646) #
Hearing all the old Tom Cheek calls was just great

"A swing and a belt, left field, way back, Blue Jays win it! The Blue Jays are World Champions!...Touch 'em all, Joe, you'll never hit a bigger homerun in your life!"

That will never get old. I could listen to that every day for the rest of my life.
_A - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 06:05 PM EDT (#38647) #
I'd be real surprised if Delgado landed in the NL. His health issues are going to prevent him from playing 1B on a full-time basis if not at some point next season then for sure the year after that. It would be irresponsible to sign Carlos to a long term deal if a team can't have DH as a back-up plan for keeping his bat in the line-up.
Craig B - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 06:08 PM EDT (#38648) #
The Mets just dealt their best pitching prospect for a younger Batista with better stuff (more walks, more K's, equal amount of HRA, similar ERA).

Zambrano's got nice stuff, but it's not better than Batista, whose stuff is frankly electric. Also, Batista usually has better control than he's shown this year. With Zambrano, what you see is what you get - a guy who's hard to hit on good counts but can't find the strike zone. With Batista, the whole is frustratingly less than the sum of the parts, but the parts are awesome.
_CaramonLS - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 06:08 PM EDT (#38649) #
Dudek... I see your point, but lets be honest how many other people can you say that about??

How many people sit in the minors because they have a 5 cent toolbox and million dollar tools. Plenty.

A pitcher like Bautista is unlikely to improve/experiment given his age and experience, so its better to look at results at this point in time.
_Moffatt - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 06:11 PM EDT (#38650) #
Awesome win. I must admit with how things have been lately the last couple innings were far more exciting than you'd normally expect with that score.
_Scott Levy - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 06:21 PM EDT (#38651) #
So quit harping on K/W ratio as the be all and end all and take a look at what the pitcher is actually throwing on the mound.

I will harp on it, because it's IMPORTANT!

He's giving up a similar amount of hits to last year, but he's walking nearly two more batters per 9, striking out two fewer batters per 9, and giving up slightly more home runs. His ERA has jumped one whole run, and his ratios have hit the crapper. I didn't enjoy watching the Jays pay Cory Lidle $5.0M a year, and I'll enjoy it even less if Batista is putting up similar numbers for a similar price but an additional year.

Come on, Josh Towers can't strike anyone out, and everyone is waiting for his implosion. Why is it any different for Batista? He's making 4 times as much as Towers.

To quote Rob Neyer: "show me a pitcher with a lousy strikeout rate and I'll probably show you a pitcher with a lousy ERA." Four K's per 9 ain't gonna cut it.
_Magpie - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 07:41 PM EDT (#38652) #
A pitcher like Bautista is unlikely to improve/experiment given his age and experience

Generally, true. But I think Batista experiments toomuch. He tries to master - what - seven different pitches? He might be better off to streamline his repertoire a little.

Four K's per 9 ain't gonna cut it.

Sure, but Batista's not at that point. That's the floor, and if you drop below it you're probably not going to be effective. But he's still closer to 5 Ks per 9 than 4. His K rate has dropped this year, but he's still comfortably above the minimum.
_Jim - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#38653) #
This discussion relates to what I feel the Jays are going to do in the offseason. I don't think they will land the premium bat we all think is most important. I can see this team going forward with an extreme defense/pitching strategy in 2005.

They have plus defenders at:
Center
Right
Second

They may or may not have a plus defender at third, I can't tell to be honest.

A plus glove at short would be a huge piece of a defensive 'puzzle'. Good defenders aren't hard to come by in left or at first.

Now you've got a rotation most would be comfortable with
Halladay
Lilly
Batista
Bush
Insert your choice for 5th starter here.

The pieces exist for a solid bullpen - Chulk, Frasor, the brigade of arms in the minors (plus potential bounceback years from the likes of Lightenberg ect).

So now you've got a team built around pitching and defense until JP can develop the hitters they need to really challenge for the division.
robertdudek - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 08:31 PM EDT (#38654) #
We're talking about a guy who has had a lot of success the last few years. The drop in his K rate and rise in W was to be expected because he has to face the DH instead of a pitcher now. Granted, the scale of change was more than expected, but I see nothing that suggests the trend can't be reversed next year. His ERA this year is above average for an AL starter, believe it or not.
_Dan - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 09:04 PM EDT (#38655) #
Sure the rotation with Halladay Lilly Bush Batista is good but having a good catcher behind the plate will be important. Who will it be, Quiroz, Cash (I dont think he will be back), Zaun. My money is a platoon between Zaun and Quiroz.
_greenfrog - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 09:11 PM EDT (#38656) #
We won't know until next year, but I'm hoping Batista can rebound. He has a decent track record, and reportedly has good stuff (I haven't seen him pitch). This is his first year in the AL, with a new team in a new park, so he may yet make the necessary adjustments.

I also wonder whether he's getting the coaching he needs.

Either way, it's the same story: Jays forced by limited budget to gamble on a second-tier veteran, in the hopes that he transcends his track record (or that they at least catch him on the upswing). With this strategy, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose--sometimes you break even.

If you're Boston, you get Schilling and Foulke. If you're New York, you get Sheffield, Vasquez, Gordon and Quantrill. If you're Toronto, you get Batista, Hentgen, Speier, Ligtenberg, Adams, etc.
robertdudek - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 09:26 PM EDT (#38657) #
Do you really think Quantrill is significantly better than Speier?
_Dan H - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 09:26 PM EDT (#38658) #
Was it just me, or did anyone else find Pat Gillick sitting in the stands during Blue Jays' alumi week wearing a Seattle Mariner's cap a bit weird?

Then again, maybe I'm sleep deprived and was imagining things.
_P Smith - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#38659) #
Nice matchup on Sunday Night Baseball tonight. The Braves, feeling confident with their 9 game lead, are pitching to Barry Bonds - with predictable results.
_CaramonLS - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#38660) #
Dudek: Hell Yes.
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 09:56 PM EDT (#38661) #
Speier:    55.1 IP, 6.71 K/9, 3.83 BB/9, 1.30 WHIP, 4.15 ERA, 21 Relief Points*
Quantrill: 81.2 IP, 3.39 K/9, 1.42 BB/9, 1.36 WHIP, 3.94 ERA, 4 Relief Points*


* Calculated by hand, so these may be incorrect.
_Rob - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 10:06 PM EDT (#38662) #
Make Q's RP total 2 (before today's game). I double-checked it and I believe 2 is right.
_greenfrog - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 10:12 PM EDT (#38663) #
Actually, Dudek may have a point. Quantrill isn't having a significantly better season than Speier.

However, the point is that every year, in the aggregate, the NYY and Boston will sign and trade for better players (more upside, better track record, less risk of imploding) than Toronto. The Jays can't even consider players like Schilling, Sheffield, Foulke, etc., who will never sign in Toronto--at least not until the Jays have built a solid contender (and maybe not even then). For now, JP has to look for marginal or overlooked players who may have some hidden upside (eg Catalanotto, Menechino, Lilly). The problem is you also get stuck with a raft of mediocre players as well.
_Kieran - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 10:50 PM EDT (#38664) #
Just catching up on the thread and thrilled to see the use of relief points! Were you using the simple formula (a) or the more complex (b)

(A) IP*3 - R*5 + ISt*2
or
(B) RP = 3*IP - 5*(R + IS) + 2*(IR - IS)
= 3*IP - 7*IS - 5*R + 2*IR

I prefer (A) for simplicity
_CaramonLS - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 10:56 PM EDT (#38665) #
I see your point Rob, but also remember those 25 or so extra innings he has pitched is 25 less innings we'd have to have lighterfluid or someone else in the game.
_Ron - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 11:29 PM EDT (#38666) #
Anybody that thinks Batista is going to crank it up next season is borderline crazy.

He's at a age where decline usually happens. Heck he's declined this season (and yes I understand he switched leagues and faces the DH now.....). Look at his track record, what you see is what you get. His terrible control of the strike zone and his lack of K's has me really worried. Not only is he locked in for 4.5 mil next season but also the season after that in which he will be 35yrs old.
_Ron - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 11:31 PM EDT (#38667) #
And I also want to add JP lucked out because Lilly has basically replaced Batista as the number 2 man in the rotation. If Doc can bounce back next season and Lilly can pitch the way he has this season the Jays have an excellent one-two duo.
_Mick - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 11:47 PM EDT (#38668) #
Is Menachenio available for today?

I think he's probably used up ... he worked yesterday on less than a thousand days rest.
_Mick - Sunday, August 29 2004 @ 11:54 PM EDT (#38669) #
If Doc can bounce back next season and Lilly can pitch the way he has this season the Jays have an excellent one-two duo.

Neyer addresses this fallacy every spring ... every team's fans assumes "well, our stars that fell off a little bit, they'll get back to having their career years, because that's their real level of talent, but the guys who had breakout years for us, they'll keep it up, because that's their real level of talent." If forget what he named this annual force of optimism.

I mean, if I'm a Yankees fan -- and as you all know, I am -- can I legitimately think, "Well, Moose and Brown and Lieber have all contended for the Cy Young in years past, and they'll get back to that and better yet, Contreras really flashed his old "real true" form at the end of the season, and of course Vazquez STILL hasnt' reached his awesome potential. We could be looking at FIVE 20-game winners next season!" Pish posh. It's the same in TO ... "Well, assume Halladay gets healthy and then assume he returns to his CY Young Self and then assume that Lilly keeps up this season's results which he's never ever done before and THEN assume that Batista's electric stuff will finally result in a 22-win season ..."

It's like having your cake, eating it too and wanting another piece ... all three best-case scenario evaluations have to be true while at least two of them are inherently contradictory.

Now, I'm not saying it definitely won't happen -- in TO or the City -- just that it's wildly, massively unlikely.
_Paul D - Monday, August 30 2004 @ 12:14 AM EDT (#38670) #
http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/stiebda01.shtml
I was looking up Dave Stieb's numbers the other day and I was very surprised at his K/BB ratio. Not nearly as good as I thought it would be, and I think it was only over 2 once.
COMN for his numbers.

On the other hand, he did strike out a fair number of batters per inning.
robertdudek - Monday, August 30 2004 @ 12:25 AM EDT (#38671) #
Mick,

In case you haven't heard, Contreras isn't a Yankee anymore.
_Loveshack - Monday, August 30 2004 @ 12:28 AM EDT (#38672) #
And I also want to add JP lucked out because Lilly has basically replaced Batista as the number 2 man in the rotation

If he lucked out on Lilly then was he unlucky (lucked in?) with Batista? JP picked up two starters last off-season expecting them to fill out the number 2 and 3 spots in the rotation. He expected Batista would be the #2 and Lilly #3, it ended up the reverse but either way those roles have been filled admirably. JP hedged his bets and it worked out. Either luck is to blame for both (Batista's under-performance and Lilly's over-performance) or luck is to blame for neither, but you cant say that the Jays should have seen the bad part coming and then in the same breath say that the good part was pure luck. Either they get credit for both or credit for neither.
_Mick - Monday, August 30 2004 @ 12:57 AM EDT (#38673) #
In case you haven't heard, Contreras isn't a Yankee anymore

Yes, clearly that meant "Hernandez."

Speaking of Contreras, I guess I should've included Esteban Loaiza in the list of "Yankees pitchers who we can expect to get back to their Cy Young-contending form" in the above.
_Cristian - Monday, August 30 2004 @ 12:58 AM EDT (#38674) #
Anybody that thinks Batista is going to crank it up next season is borderline crazy. He's at a age where decline usually happens...the season after that in which he will be 35yrs old.

Has anyone done a study of when pitchers peak?
_Ron - Monday, August 30 2004 @ 01:38 AM EDT (#38675) #
If he lucked out on Lilly then was he unlucky (lucked in?) with Batista? JP picked up two starters last off-season expecting them to fill out the number 2 and 3 spots in the rotation. He expected Batista would be the #2 and Lilly #3, it ended up the reverse but either way those roles have been filled admirably. JP hedged his bets and it worked out. Either luck is to blame for both (Batista's under-performance and Lilly's over-performance) or luck is to blame for neither, but you cant say that the Jays should have seen the bad part coming and then in the same breath say that the good part was pure luck. Either they get credit for both or credit for neither.

I could see Bush passing Batista on the depth chart next season. I don't expect Batista to improve over this season next year.

Neyer addresses this fallacy every spring ... every team's fans assumes "well, our stars that fell off a little bit, they'll get back to having their career years, because that's their real level of talent, but the guys who had breakout years for us, they'll keep it up, because that's their real level of talent." If forget what he named this annual force of optimism.

I mean, if I'm a Yankees fan -- and as you all know, I am -- can I legitimately think, "Well, Moose and Brown and Lieber have all contended for the Cy Young in years past, and they'll get back to that and better yet, Contreras really flashed his old "real true" form at the end of the season, and of course Vazquez STILL hasnt' reached his awesome potential. We could be looking at FIVE 20-game winners next season!" Pish posh. It's the same in TO ... "Well, assume Halladay gets healthy and then assume he returns to his CY Young Self and then assume that Lilly keeps up this season's results which he's never ever done before and THEN assume that Batista's electric stuff will finally result in a 22-win season ..."

It's like having your cake, eating it too and wanting another piece ... all three best-case scenario evaluations have to be true while at least two of them are inherently contradictory.

Now, I'm not saying it definitely won't happen -- in TO or the City -- just that it's wildly, massively unlikely.


This is true. But I never said Batista would bounce back next season or Doc will repeat his CY Young year. I do expect Doc to put up better numbers than he has this year.
_Daryn - Monday, August 30 2004 @ 07:51 AM EDT (#38676) #
With regards to Tom's banner,

when I was at the dome last week, I noted that "all" the blank spots seemed to have a banner in it already... on TV I could see that Tom is now to the left of Pat Gillick..

Does anyone remember who's banner used to be there, and where it was moved to?
_Daryn - Monday, August 30 2004 @ 09:53 AM EDT (#38677) #
I'll move this question to the Round-up thread.

DT
_A - Monday, August 30 2004 @ 01:38 PM EDT (#38678) #
I could see Bush passing Batista on the depth chart next season. I don't expect Batista to improve over this season next year.

Ron, I was thinking about buying a tabbie cat to go with my 4 year old pointer named Monty. How do you see them getting along?
_Rob - Monday, August 30 2004 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#38679) #
Were you using the simple formula (a) or the more complex (b)

I used B for those RP numbers.
_Ron - Monday, August 30 2004 @ 08:55 PM EDT (#38680) #
Ron, I was thinking about buying a tabbie cat to go with my 4 year old pointer named Monty. How do you see them getting along?

I see them having a outstanding relationship!
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