When Nid made an error, everyone yelled out e-Nid.

Barenaked Ladies if there are any points for knowing the band too - great song, great memories!

When Nid made an error, everyone yelled out e-Nid.

Nice. The song was Enid by the Barenaked Ladies.

You win 100 million points and a picture of superhero Kikkoman:

Barenaked Ladies if there are any points for knowing the band too

Sure. How about 50 million points and a smaller picture of Kikkoman:

Would I get some points for relating how the Ladies came up with the song? Big BNL fan here.

Also.

I can do it all for you,
but I don't want to.

Cool, thanks Moffatt. Now would you care to share what Kikkoman is renown for (above and beyond his itch-inducing punch), and why his head is shaped like a fish? Does this have something to do with the Matsumura Fishworks? (The Fishworks are Moffatt's BBFL team.)

Also, why did Jim Bloom quit? IIRC, we hired him away from Oakland just a couple of years ago. Was he not happy here or was it something else?

Talking of the future ... what do you think can be done with delgado's money ?

I would spend it on clement/perez, glaus, and valentin

p.s. I have no idea what's wrong with hinske, but people here would agree that 2 years is a decent sample size. In 2 years, his OPS is .766 and .687, phelps had .828 and .713. I doubt you could justify this kind of production from your ss.

Now would you care to share what Kikkoman is renown for (above and beyond his itch-inducing punch), and why his head is shaped like a fish?

The Kikkoman movie should answer your questions. Best non-political non-Homestar flash movie ever.

Cool, Gibbons manages and writes columns now.

As for the lineup, I'm not a big fan of DH'ing Menechino and hitting him in the heart of the order.

Oops. Thanks Pistol.

If I can hijack this thread for a minute...

I hope Gibbons doesn't put Ligtenberg into Saturday's game. It'll take quite a while to remove all the sporthead dolls from the field.

I hope Gibbons doesn't put Ligtenberg into Saturday's game. It'll take quite a while to remove all the sporthead dolls from the field.

Yeah, an Oriole could trip over one walking to first base.

/too cold?

http://aaronreynolds.ca/gallery/Desktops
And if you want a sign that Ligtenberg has performed radically differently from expectations, just the fact that they had planned a Collectable Sport Head day for him before the season started should be proof enough. Do you think he was expected to be the closer or the bullpen hero?

For anyone who missed it in yesterday's game thread, COMN for some fancy Blue Jays desktops to cheer you up in this dark, dark season.

The Kikkoman movie should answer your questions.

Oh yeah. That'll answer questions. Uh-huh.

Of course, it will generate about 25 times more questions than it answers... but dem's de breaks...

In 2 years, his OPS is .766 and .687, phelps had .828 and .713. I doubt you could justify this kind of production from your ss.

In 2003, everyone thought Bordick was the cat's pyjamas. His OPS was 722. This year, Gomez isn't quite as heralded, but many have seem pleased with his output (or, perhaps, just pleasantly surprised). His OPS is 684.

My point isn't to defend Hinske's lack of production but to suggest that the bar for shortstops is much lower. That Hinske has basically hit like the team's shortstops the past two seasons is a cause for concern.

As for the lineup, I'm not a big fan of DH'ing Menechino and hitting him in the heart of the order.

Given Menechino's splits (973/746), I'd say he certainly deserves to be in the lineup vs LHP, and he's got to be as good a candidate as anyone to serve as DH. I'd prefer to see he and Johnson batting 1-2 vs LHP, to lift the top two table-setters up where they belong (where the eagles cry, on a mountain high).

And if you want a sign that Ligtenberg has performed radically differently from expectations, just the fact that they had planned a Collectable Sport Head day for him before the season started should be proof enough.

Remember when Tampa Bay had to cancel their Jason Tyner bobblehead day because he had been sent to the minors? We've got a singles hitting outfielder with no power and no ability to draw walks. Let's celebrate him with a tacky plastic souvenir.

We've got a singles hitting outfielder with no power and no ability to draw walks. Let's celebrate him with a tacky plastic souvenir.

But is there a better way to celebrate a light-hitting speed burner than with a tacky, brightly-colored plastic souvenir?

Music Hijack:

Someone recommended "Absolution" by Muse to me last week.

Holy god, is it ever good. The Radiohead comparison was bang on.

I now return you to depressing-post-indians-sweep jays talk...

i saw muse last week. i wasn't very impressed.

Show me / Show you / Kikkoman / Kikkoman...

Worchester sauce? Ketchup? They're for suckers!

Man, that was truly hilarious, and educational. What will the Japanese come up with next??

Man, that was truly hilarious, and educational.

I don't know; I'm still tramatized by the cat hanging himself in shame.

How does giving up a broken bat single show that Lilly's rhythm was disrupted? He was at the edge of an acceptable pitch count but also had two outs in the inning already. Gibbons wanted to impart some advice which he couldn't relay through the catcher and maybe he wanted a feel for how Lilly was doing fatigue wise.

Last night was just another example of a near helpless offence and the inexplicable ability of this team to invite unlikely disaster in huge bunches. If there's a criticism it might be why not bring Chulk in to get that one out in the first place and not bring a struggling pitcher like Ligtenberg into a one run game. I don't think Gibbons taking a trip to the mound to talk to his pitcher should have affected the relievers' ability to do their jobs.

If Ligtenberg wasn't signed for another year he would be given the sturtze treatment.

It's pretty obvious the money spent on him was a waste, and at the time people here were calling the orioles stupid. They had a reason not to pick the $ 1 million option.

This was a bad move by jp.

Griffen as always has the benefit of hindsight. If Lilly strikes him out, it is a great move.

They had a reason not to pick the $ 1 million option.

This was a bad move by jp.

Stunningly clear hindsight you have there, pardner.

OK, to be fair though, you're right. I don't think we can look at it as anything bud a bad move at this point. Right now, there is no silver lining.

There's always next year, but I am not very hopeful...

(reposted from the game thread)

I watched a bit of Jays in an hour after getting home last night, and saw the Ligtenberg self-destruction.

He was certainly nibbling out there, but in my opinion he got squeezed by the ump. There were tons of pitches at the knees on the outside corner that I have seen called strikes in other games this year. His last pitch (on the third walk) appeared to be right down the middle, belt-high. I could understand that being a ball 10 years ago, but isn't the high strike supposed to be called these days?

Having said all that, Ligtenberg desperately needs an off-speed breaking pitch. Everything he throws is hard. So he needs to paint the corners to avoid getting hammered. If he just had something to throw hitters off balance, he would be able to cut loose and just throw the ball. I have no idea how he got away with his current approach for the last 5 years.

Too bad about the loss last night. I hope the Jays' bats wake up soon.

Stunningly clear hindsight you have there, pardner.

I am not blaming jp, everone makes mistakes. Batista and Lilly were very good moves.

Next year though, I think the jays should bolster the pitching with a top calibre starter like clement and (at least) two power hitters. I don't think there is reason to hope hinske will get much better, but with wells, two power hitters, and improved and incoming rookies the offence will pick up.

A healthy halladay, a top caliber starter, and whatever we have now, this team can rebound its way to respectability and maybe challenge for the playoffs.

How long a team should stay with a struggling player should depend on the player's particular situation.

My two cents on Hinske:

I think the Jays should give Hinske the rest of the year (at least) to work through his struggles at the plate.

First, what do they have to lose by leaving him in there - I'm not aware of any prospect that he's blocking that would otherwise be major-league ready (unless you think Hattig fits that description). The team is obviously not in contention. I'm not aware of any other players at the major league level that the team is seeking to develop at that position. In my view, the Jays should be looking at the rest of this season as an opportunity to learn as much as possible about the players they have (as well as restoring their confidence). If he turns himself around, great. If he fails, maybe he contributes to the team getting a higher draft pick. But, the organization would be more certain that he's not the player they need him to be.

Second, he's shown enough in the three years that he's played with the team that most would agree he can be a valuable player, both at the plate and now, in the field too. Let's not forget that in his rookie year (which feels like a long time ago, I know) Hinske led major league third baseman in BP's VORP, and last year, if he had hit 10 more home runs and 10 fewer doubles, I don't think anyone would have been complaining about his performance at the plate.

Third, the organization's committed a lot of money to him (which I realize is a sunk cost), but the team should be certain before it makes any sort of decision to swallow that amount. I worry sometimes that J.P. is too quick to give up on players (Phelps being a case in point).

Fourth, I think a show of confidence from the organization can turn a player's slump around (like with Hudson). I like the idea of keeping him fifth in the order, since he's arguably shown with his performance in past years that he's worthy of it. I expect that moving Hinske regularly to seventh or eighth in the order would be perceived by him as a vote of non-confidence. Since one purpose for playing him would be to evaluate his future potential for contributing to the team, I don't think the team should do anything unnecessarily that would sway the evaluation in one direction or the other. If the Jays' record from here on out mattered at all, yes I'd drop him to seventh or eighth perhaps, but in my view that is not the current situation.

Fifth, a guy has to have some talent to get taunted the way Hinske does by that fan in Tampa.

I don't mean to defend Hinske's performance this year or recently - he's hit poorly. However, IMO the Jays should be absolutely certain before deciding that Hinske is a bad player, rather than a good player having a bad year.

Perhaps this view is optimistic, but I still think Hinske has the potential to be an above-average third baseman, capable/average in the field, getting on base at an above average rate, with plus power. Sadly, I don't think he can be a star anymore, but I think he can earn his contract and be a functioning part of a championship team.

Show me / Show you / Kikkoman / Kikkoman.

Ah yes, a true classic. FWIW, "Show you" is the Japanese pronunciation of soy sauce, so there's your Japanese pun... as for explaining the other 99% of it, I've got nothing.

I would spend it on clement/perez, glaus, and valentin

My question to that is: And? I see the 2005 budget having $14.5M to spend on free agents, based on keeping Speier, Zaun, Catalanotto and Menechino, and saying goodbye to Delgado, Woody, de los Santos, Berg, Gomez, and Myers. I don't see $14.5 getting three of those players, and even 2 might be difficult.

I'd allocate the money to 2 relievers (One righty, one lefty), 1 shortstop, and 1 first baseman. I'm intrigued at the idea of going cheap on the 1st baseman (A righty, which means I put a lot of eggs in Crozier's basket), and signing Garciaparra for $10M. Not likely, as that's doubtless not enough to land Nomar, and J.P. has stated that the Jays can't afford to be paying a single player 8 figures. Not to mention that Nomar would probably rather stay in Chicago or go to Anaheim, who can both afford him.

It's pretty obvious the money spent on him was a waste, and at the time people here were calling the orioles stupid. They had a reason not to pick the $ 1 million option.

Ligtenberg's yearly ERA+ for his career:
140
156
129
146
139
130

At the time I thought the Jays overpaid, and I think I said I thought 2 years was a year too long, but I don't think it was a bad move as much as one that didn't work out.

I think the real issue that needs exploring is why he's been so bad (which could be something we'll never know about).

http://www.mathesond.mindsay.com
It seems to me that the best way to replace Carlos Delgado would be via trade, as the available free agents seem to be of the veteran stop-gap type, or else part of the expensive, coming-off-major-surgery class. I know Adrian Gonzalez' name has been mentioned here a couple of times. I took a cursory glance at his numbers, and 11 HR is roughly 350 AB's for a 22-year old in AAA doesn't seem especially outstanding, but there is the caveat that he could "grow into his man-strength". So does anyone think he's worth trading a young pitcher for? Craig, you seem to be well-versed in minor-league projections - is Gonzalez worth a David Bush, or someone of that ilk?

Like I said in a game thread a few days ago, we should start a letter-writing campaign to Nomar to convince him that Toronto is the best city in the world. If we plant the idea in his head, he'll be calling J.P. begging to be signed for next to nothing.

http://www.mathesond.mindsay.com
NFH, I live in Chicago, so if you can just email me the letters, I can print them out and drop them off. Saves everyone the postage...

Next year though, I think the jays should bolster the pitching with a top calibre starter like clement and (at least) two power hitters. I don't think there is reason to hope hinske will get much better, but with wells, two power hitters, and improved and incoming rookies the offence will pick up.

Sure no problem... But every Jays' fan will have to chip in to afford those players. There is no way the Jays can afford a Clement and two difference-making power hitters with the budget they have.

is Gonzalez worth a David Bush, or someone of that ilk?

You didn't ask me but I'll answer. Gonzalez is more in the vein of a Doug Mientkiewicz or maybe Mark Grace if you want to be kind. A .280-.300 hitter with 10-15 home run potential and a slick gove. Bush has the makings of a second or third starter. Not worth the trade. Make it Chacin and Griffin, which I doubt would get the deal done, and I'd do it. Might as well see what Crozier can do... and maybe sign a Calvin Pickering or trade for Graham Koonce or John Gall.

As I've been saying all week regarding off season signings, going out and fielding 3 or 4 proven players is virtualy impossible. Given budget concerns and the fact that these veterans will be blocking the appearance of the young guns who are due to come up and take the Jays to a cost effective play off birth. But I think signing just one big name (if carlos goes) is the best thing the Jays can do. It will give the offence a little added pop next season as well as not log jam the prospects. Joe McAveragefan sees a new big name on the field and is content enough to see the occaisional game and not contsantly rip the team to co-workers.

And as always, I agree with everything NFH has to say about the sweet sweet dream of Nomar in T.O.

Jobu, you oughta since it was your idea.

Though I'd balk at renaming the team the Toronto Nomars.

On ask JP this week, JP mentioned that the Jays would look at some arbitration eligible players on other teams that might be getting too expensive for their current teams. Did anyone else hear him say this, he mentioned it quickly as part of a "yeah we have identified some players for next year" answer?

If you want to convince Nomar, mention how much fun it would be to screw the bosox and have the Jays leapfrog over them.

JP mentioned that the Jays would look at some arbitration eligible players on other teams that might be getting too expensive for their current teams.

I didn't listen on Wednesday, so I don't know if he said that. I think teams are starting to catch on that it's a bad idea to automatically offer arbitration to every single eligible player. I wouldn't be surprised if there were 30 or more players added to the free agent ranks due to teams declining arbitration.

I wonder if there are any Jays that will not be offered arbitration. Woodward maybe?

My question to that is: And? I see the 2005 budget having $14.5M to spend

I don't think we should bring back cat ( we have 4 outfielders), and spier (so many minor league relievers), and myers, and berg, and anyone not named menechino or zaun.

With the savings, we could probably acquire all three, expecially if the payroll is 52 - 53 mil as someone here said before.

Those desktops are VERY cool, Aaron! Thanks for doing that.

If you want to convince Nomar, mention how much fun it would be to screw the bosox and have the Jays leapfrog over them.

Thats going to be second on the list, right after "Pronouncing your name correctly and accent free"

Though I'd balk at renaming the team the Toronto Nomars.

Alright, alright... what about Nomar's Blue Jays? The Toronto Homars featuring Nomar?

I don't think we should bring back cat ( we have 4 outfielders)

I would feel very comfortable with Cat splitting his time between 1B and DH along with a younger player like Crozier getting the rest of the time.

Hardball Times has posted my article on the departure of Josh Phelps and Carlos Tosca.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=gallo/040812
Anyone ever wonder what would have happened to the 2004 season if it were played out? COMN.

Anyone ever wonder what would have happened to the 2004 season if it were played out? COMN.

A, of course, means the 1994 season. The article is teh funneh.

I actually play out the 1994 season on DMB every year, usually in October around the time of the World Series. I used to play it in Strat-O until I got DMB a few years ago. I honestly feel that 1994 was one of the great "missing experiences" in my life.

Wow, two in one day. Just before 4am in yesterday's game thread I insisted it was sleep deprivation that lead to the 1987/1979 typo. I don't think I want to come to terms with the real reason behind the miss cues.

http://me.woot.net
The real reason is, of course, Frank Stallone.

Does anyone know what Nomar was making with the sox this year? Like 12 million or so? And also do you the baseball minds of Da Box think that will go up or down through free agent auctioning? Just trying to test the reality of "The Great Dream".

Hat breaking-in update: my wet-hat experiment, as suggested by New Era's website, seems quite successful. Also, getting a hat wet and letting it dry on your head gives you really, really funny looking hair.

Nomar made just over 11 million this year... And reportedly turned his nose up at a $60 million deal with the Sox. I don't think the Jays are close to having the money to sign him. And he wants to play for a winning team. Dream shattered. Mind you, one player isn't going to make a huge difference anyway. Especially considering he would take up almost all of the available money for new players. Might as well put the idea out of your head.

Nomar is making $11.5M this year. Miguel Tejada signed for 6 years, $72M with Baltimore last offseason.

You guys are all kidding about Nomar, right?

Because if you're serious, you're out of your F%$*ing minds.

Jose Valentin is a better baseball player. Right now, anyway. He's a much better defender, and the offense is a wash.

Garciaparra just is not the same hitter since the wrist injury, and we now have three years of data that says the same thing. He's a good hitter, make no mistake. But he's not the same.

His defense this year has been bad beyond belief. The bad heel surely has a lot to do with it, but even if he's healthy he's not as good as Valentin.

I think Valentin will be undervalued a little by the market because he's a .231 hitter. He's making $ 5 million this year, and a 30 HR season should get him a raise. You would think. But he'll still be cheaper than Nomar.

And we may need some LH pop next year, and does anyone want to count on Hinske, Gross, or Crozier to provide it?

I have no idea how (Ligtenberg) got away with his current approach for the last 5 years.

I think he was probably a whole lot healthier. Lots of relievers can be very effective without throwing anything offspeed. Duane Ward is the first guy that comes to mind. It works once through the order, if the pitches are good enough. A starter can't really get by with it, no matter how good the pitches are. Remember Jim Clancy?

Anyway, Ligtenberg is one of those stand-up guys who always faces the music and does not make excuses. Which you like to see. The only thing he's actually said is that his slider just isn't working this year. We know he's got a problem with his left hip, and he's been pitching through it all year. He probably shouldn't have been doing that.

Mind you, one player isn't going to make a huge difference anyway.

As I've said earlier, I have no delusions of one single big player coming to the jays and taking them to the playoffs on their back, but I do see that big name keeping a baseball buzz in the city with casual fans after one of the worst seasons this town has seen.

Thanks to all for the salary info. Even when Nomar retires on some other team, "The Dream" never really dies.

Two final thoughts about Valentin. He's been a very good shortstop playing on grass. Would he be good on the turf? (In my mind, the number one quality to be a good turf SS is a gun for an arm. Like our Alex Gonzalez had. Whatever his shortcomings with the bat, Alex played very good defense here. Although I guess Ozzie Smith did OK with his rather ordinary arm, didn't he?)

The other thing about Valentin is that he really needs a platoon partner. He will be 35 next year, he would be playing regularly on turf for the first time. And anyway, he couldn't hit LH pitchers if he went up to home plate with a paddle instead of a bat. After flailing away from the right side for years and years, he gave up on switch-hitting this year and is batting exclusively LH. And he's raised his BAVG against southpaws by five points. All the way up to .162.

Well in "good" news, the Jays dont have to worry about the Argos creeping up on their title of "Boys of Summer" anymore. The momentum was gaining but I dont think yesterdays game could have gone any worse for the Argos and their fans. First they're beat soundly by the team they'd definatly have to beat to get to the finals anyway, and then they lose their starting QB. And as well all know, Toronto bandwagon fans have the loyalty of an animatronic sock puppet. (something which I can only assume, has no loyalty)

Heh.

Nomar Garciaparra and José Valentin are two baseball players taht I really dislike. It's funny, because I'm not sure why I dislike either of them, but if either one came to Toronto I would cry. Good thing there is absolutely no chance of Nomar.

Ryan, he might change his mind after he reads my letter.

What wet hat experiment?

I do see that big name keeping a baseball buzz in the city with casual fans after one of the worst seasons this town has seen.

Aside from a handful of players (none of whom the Jays could get) I don't think any player is going to create a buzz. Roger Clemens didn't improve attendence when he came to Toronto and he'd be bigger than anyone the Jays could get this offseason.

Thomas, while looking for washing instructions for my hat I read on the New Era site that the best way to break in an "authentic" cap is to get it wet and let it dry on your head: it's wool, so it'll shrink as it dries, but if it's on your head it'll take on that shape.

What wet hat experiment?

Apparently, if you sit around all day with a soaking wet baseball cap on your head, the water seeps through your skull and you start posting letters to famous shortstops on Batter's Box.

Just kidding, NFH. You know who loves ya, baby!

Roger Clemens didn't improve attendence
Yeah but it didnt get worse. Something which might happen after the season from hell is finally put out of its misery. Just talking to casual fans, the stuff they have to say about this team, it aint pretty.

you start posting letters to famous shortstops on Batter's Box.

Dear Honus Wagner,

What's the afterlife like? Where do you go when you die and do they use the DH there?

Your friend,

Mike Moffatt

Heavens nice.... there's a shortage of chairs though. They dont have the DH but the have the designated 4th baseman.....its complicated.

Honus.

P.S. Honus, do the umpires miss calls where you are?

Oh sure they do, but not as often. We have the Holy QuesTrinity multi ump system behind the plate so it helps. No walk up music though.

Honus.

Honus, do the umpires miss calls where you are

Honus why do you hit so badly - take a back seat and sit down.
Honus at bat you look so sadly - why don't you get out of town.

I see I'm not the only one bouncing from thread to thread like an amphetamine-crazed pinball (or something...)

Gosh, the ZLC is in high spirits today. Good to see.

Must be because this is all pre-game banter....

It turns out that Gibbons is not a great handler of pitchers either...

Griffin's ready to make that judgement? After four games?

Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain. But let us try, anyway.

I don't have the faintest idea, and neither does anyone else, whether Gibbons is a good handler of pitchers. We haven't seen enough.

On principle, I don't mind the manager coming out to the mound to chat with his starter. Sometimes to kick his butt, sometimes to ask how he is, sometimes to buy him a minute of rest. Whatever. Last night wasn't one of those times, but when a guy has thrown 25 pitches in an inning, I want him to have a chance to rest for a second before he deals with the next hitter....

Just kidding, NFH.

Actually, that's a really good explanation of why I wrote that letter. I didn't really know, myself.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1858619
Jason Stark has a new column with the players that made it through waivers and can be traded. Cat didnt', but Speier did.

COMN for the column. Also, there's news about the Expos. Well, not news so much as a recap of their situation.

http://me.woot.net
Thanks for that link, Paul D. It seems that it's a common occurrence for players to be run through the waiver wire on revocable waivers. I guess that's what was happening with Josh Phelps, and J.P. was just able to work something out with the team who claimed him.

I just realized something weird while listening into a conversation. Despite my former obsession with music and my general feeling that I've seen and heard everything, I just realized that I have never seen The Wall, or even heard the whole The Wall album.

Isn't that weird?

yeah that is pretty damn weird. And it also makes my Neo-Nazi refference very confusing for you. Which I mentioned in a different thread. So now I'm also confused on why its brought up here.

Craig, we will remedy this problem. At my house I have the somewhat rare LaserDisc of The Wall, which includes a warning label on the back about how the extreme dynamic range of the sound mix may damage your speakers (it's a very accurate transfer of the awesome mag track from the 70mm prints of the film). In addition I have a gigantic TV and a 1982 Ashly FET-500 MOSFET power amplifier, which is a movie theatre amp from about the same time period as the film (and in fact, it's the first ever power amp to be THX certified, which it was for the release of Return of the Jedi to theatres).

Come over, then you can tell Nomar what he's missing.

it also makes my Neo-Nazi refference very confusing for you

Is that from The Wall? Weird. Yes.

Good lord NFH, you have one hell of a sound system. How much did all that set you back if you dont mind me asking?

Heh, Jobu, I've spent literally fifteen years building it, buying pieces, upgrading, selling old pieces. I'd be scared to think about my total investment...so I've never worked it out.