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Archives Jays Roundup: I've Got a Smile on My Face
I've got four walls around me
The sun in the sky, the water surrounds me
I'll win now, but sometimes I'll lose
I've been battered, but I'll never bruise
I's not so bad

John Gibbons is smiling today, improving his franchise-best record to 4-0 as manager of the Blue Jays (1-0 as officialy grand poobah). Jason Frasor and Hideki Matsui made it close, but Josh Towers, pitching for next season's contract, and Gabe Gross with his first big-league home run, led the way. Read all about it:

The Star: Jays rally behind new boss

The Sun: Perfect start

MLB.com: Jays snap five-game skid

The Globe & Mail: Jays manage a win


Ladies and gentlemen, the quotable JP Ricciardi:

Players discuss Tosca's dismissal --"I'm not afraid of someone saying my (rear-end) is on the line. I didn't take this job with the understanding that this was going to be cookies, cake and ice cream"

J.P. goes on defensive -- "We didn't hire a manager to come in here and implement his plan. We hired a manager to implement our plan and I think last season it worked pretty successfully. This year it didn't."

Gibbons takes flight with Jays -- "[Gibbons is] here because I brought him here. In that sense, he's one of my guys. Tosca was, too. I don't think he's auditioning. I've seen Gibby manage a lot in Double-A and Triple-A, and I know what he's capable of doing. I know the respect players have for him."

"It's tough replacing a good friend" -- "He just grabbed me as I was coming through the clubhouse and said, `Stick around, I've got to talk to you later,'" Gibbons said yesterday. "So then, I kind of knew something was up."


Elsewhere around the e-baseball world:

Weekend of firsts for Gross -- "I don't think I could ask for a better weekend," Gross said. "First callup, Yankee Stadium, get a home run in my last game to go with a win."

Ricciardi's selling a one-way ticket to nowhere -- Really, the most anti-Blue Jay person in the Star's editorial department is the headline writer, because in fairness, that's not the thesis of Garth Woolsey's column. But with descriptions like "his stats-driven, my-way-or-the-highway style," it isn't exactly a paean either. Memo to every sportswriter in the world: Ricciardi is not a stats guy. He's a baseball lifer with a lengthy and decorated scouting and player development background. Criticize the man all you want, but at least get your facts straight first.

'Sluggish' excuse doesn't hold up -- the Griffin-Ricciardi war continues, as the columnist discovers that professional ballplayers and coaches don't like agreeing on the record that they gave up on the season and on their manager. As Griffin's columns go, this wasn't so great; I'd give it a 4 out of 10 on the attack scale.

Team Canada loses ace -- Jeff Francis will be in Denver, not Athens, this summer. Another sharp blow to the Canadian Olympians' hopes of a medal.

Finally, there's this item: Ricciardi says he's in the crosshairs -- Jeff Blair does the unthinkable: he brings up the war of words between the Jays GM and the city's two most prominent baseball columnists:

Ricciardi knows that what he is faced with this morning is a consumer confidence issue, just as it was on the morning he fired Martinez. He was ripped in the Toronto press for the firing, but that's hardly surprising, because it's no secret he has been involved in a bitterly personal dispute with columnists Richard Griffin of the Toronto Star and Bob Elliot of The Toronto Sun.

Some of it is philosophical ? by this point, you'd like both sides of the tiresome Moneyball debate to just shut up and enjoy the game ? and some of it stems from the fact that in cleaning out the Blue Jays' scouting and player development staff in order to tighten expenses, Ricciardi likely weeded out a few sources in the process.

Daily Diversion: Hey! It's that guy from that movie!
Posted by Jordan on Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 09:47 AM EDT.
Jays Roundup: I've Got a Smile on My Face | 186 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Randy Winter - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 09:51 AM EDT (#43696) #
First post? But I don't know the song? I'm so non-clutch.
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_Paul D - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 09:54 AM EDT (#43697) #
Thank you Jeff Blair for being the voice of sanity.
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_Andrew S - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 09:57 AM EDT (#43698) #
On this ordinary day, and extraordinary win puts the wind in the Blue Jays' sails as the ride the great big sea.
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_Marc - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 09:58 AM EDT (#43699) #
It was no Ordinary Day for the 'Great Big G' Gabe Gross with his first home run in Yankee Stadium
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_Andrew S - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 09:58 AM EDT (#43700) #
Still, good to see Gibbons improve his franchise best managerial record.
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_Geoff North - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 09:59 AM EDT (#43701) #
Will today be just another ordinary day? Too bad Toronto isn't closer to the coast, then the Jays could visit the great big sea.
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Named For Hank - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:03 AM EDT (#43702) #
Have I mentioned how happy I am with the Globe and Mail's Jays (and baseball) coverage? Maybe I'll mention it again.
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_Spicol - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:08 AM EDT (#43703) #
I usually read all of my news online but I'm going to buy the Globe today and for the rest of the week, because Jeff Blair is the only rational baseball writer left in Toronto and the good things in this world need supporting.
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Named For Hank - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:11 AM EDT (#43704) #
Yeah, I was thinking that maybe I should up my subscription to six days a week as a show of thanks.
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_RhyZa - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:14 AM EDT (#43705) #
This just goes to show how important it is to have good relations with the media - JP not having it or not caring enough to cater to the know nothing columnist's egos combined with Tosca being a class act and generally welcoming to the press. I'm disgusted at the extent of the bias from these so called professionals though, it's pathetic. It's gotten to the point where if you treat them well, they will probably cover your behind your whole career and if you cross them once they will make your life a living hell.

As a Torontonian, I'm embarassed that the Star and Sun sports section is even associated with this city.. between Cox, Feschuk, Griffin, Strachan, Elliot, Hunt etc it all reeks of personal vendettas and very little unbiased journalism.
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_Spicol - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#43706) #
From the Sun's "JP goes on the defensive" article:

"I think our manager has to be someone who still goes out and and throws batting practice, who still hits fungoes," Ricciardi said. "He's still a working manager. Maybe not a great example, but a Tony Pena type.

I'm so glad he qualified the Tony Pena comment.
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_Jim - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:18 AM EDT (#43707) #
I was so hoping we'd end up talking about Geren, my all time favorite player.

'One member of the Athletics' coaching staff who has piqued Ricciardi's interest is Bob Geren, the former major-league catcher, who is the Athletics' bullpen coach. "I know him, and he'd be an interesting guy," said Ricciardi. '
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_Michael N - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:18 AM EDT (#43708) #
What's funny is that even here in former home of the Jets, the local wag enjoys taking J.P. to task. This local scribe always bemoans that the Jays lack the "financial will" to win. I think we know that championships ultimately cannot be bought. In fairness, Ricciardi has always said it was a five year plan and this will be the first off-season where he won't have Delgado's onerous contract eating up forty percent of the payroll. Bush is the first of the wave of his draftees to make an impact and one senses there will be more to follow.
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Craig B - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:24 AM EDT (#43709) #
I'm so glad he qualified the Tony Pena comment.

Really? I actually think Tony Pena is a fine manager. Tony's a bit obsessed with little ball, but ordering bunts and steals is a very small part of a manager's job. Otherwise, I think he's a terrific young manager, a player's manager who is nevertheless tough on his guys, and he's going to get better.
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Named For Hank - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:27 AM EDT (#43710) #
The Fan is actually discussing baseball pretty rationally and reasonably right now. Hogan's talked down to a couple of callers (one who said J.P. doesn't know thing one about pitching, so Hogan asked him about Lilly and Batista and Frasor).
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_Jordan - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:28 AM EDT (#43711) #
Wow, I had no idea we had this many Great Big Sea fans here. Ordinary Day got more Canada-wide airtime than any single from my home province since the Wonderful Grand Band covered Sonny's Dream.

Andrew S wins the ten million points -- is anyone keeping track of the running totals? -- and since this is my last day as Roundup guy for a while, he also receives the archetypal Muppet:

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_Keith Talent - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:30 AM EDT (#43712) #
Does John Gibbons remind anyone of Boomhauer from 'King of the Hill' ?
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_Spicol - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:33 AM EDT (#43713) #
I agree that Pena's toughness and demanding while teaching nature is admirable, even though his strategies are questionable. He's a cheerleader without it being over the top or contrived. But Tony Pena is so terribly strong willed that he will do whatever HE feels is best for the team and won't take instruction well. The Jays can't afford that...they really do need everyone in line if this organizational philosophy is going to work.
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_Wunderbat - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:38 AM EDT (#43714) #
This is just a thought, but I suspect part of the reason JP is taking so much heat in this case is that he has become the face of the franchise. I think JP took this job from Delgado. In the Ash era, Carlos was criticized due to lack of hustle, poor defense, and not running out groundballs. He is not taking the same heat this year despite having his worst year at the plate ever (though he seems to be turning it around). So where Delgado would take the heat for the club's poor play, JP now takes it. Mats Sundin seems to be in a similar boat, as whenever the Leafs play poorly it is due to his cliched lack of heart.

By the way, I love how everyone refers to The Five-Year Plan. It is so Stalinesque. I suppose we will have to get red back into the uniforms. As well, the firing of Martinez and Tosca should be referred to as the Great Purge. (I want to make sure everyone understands that this is a sarcastic paragraph and I am in no way likening JP to Stalin, I just thought it was a funny term).
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_DJ - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:39 AM EDT (#43715) #
This just goes to show how important it is to have good relations with the media

How does it show that? I don't think having good relations with the media matters at all.
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Named For Hank - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:39 AM EDT (#43716) #
Interesting thought on the Fan right now: move Toronto to the National League when the Expos go to Washington (if they go to Washington), and make Washington an AL East team. Washington might appreciate the NY and Boston tourism and gate dollars, and Toronto would get the heck out of the AL East.

Is this an unreasonable idea? It does seem a bit like giving up.
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_Spicol - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:44 AM EDT (#43717) #
I would LOVE if Toronto were a National League team. The strategy is much more interesting in the NL and, to me, Toronto's only real rivalry is Detroit, so it's not like I'd bemoan messing with tradition or anything. But if the only value add for Toronto is getting out of the AL East, I don't see why you'd do it.
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Named For Hank - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#43718) #
I like the NL, too.
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_RhyZa - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#43719) #
important in the context of what they will write of you obviously, for thousands to read.. whether that is important in itself is up for debate but I don't think it necessary helps that's for sure.
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Named For Hank - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:49 AM EDT (#43720) #
I think the criticism that Toronto fans (in general) are always looking back at past glory and think that former players are some kind of magic bullet is so frighteningly true, listening to all these callers who want Paul Molitar to coach the team next year.
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robertdudek - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:49 AM EDT (#43721) #
J.P. has good relations with the part of the traditional media that is rational. He has a very good rapport with Spencer Fordin, Jeff Blair, Mike Wilner and a several others - I've seen this firsthand.

And of course, J.P. is very positively disposed to Batter's Box.
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_Keith Talent - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:49 AM EDT (#43722) #
JP didn't take this job to make friends with thousands of Torontonians he'll never meet. And he doesn't care what people think while he's putting together a winning team. The only opinion that counts is Godfrey's, and Ted Rogers (to a far lesser extent). JP warned they'd get bad press. Godfrey was ready for that. A small price to pay.
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Craig B - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:49 AM EDT (#43723) #
I just don't see having two AL teams as close as Washington and Baltimore being a popular idea. I certainly don't think it's a bad idea... I have no particular attachment to the AL, and prefer the NL generally.

But in the end, you'd need to secure the approval of the NL teams to this, and there is no way you would. The NL clubs will be overjoyed not to have to travel to Canada anymore.
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_Paul D - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:51 AM EDT (#43724) #
Baltimore is already going to go nuts about having a team in Washington, I think putting them in the same division would be too much for Angelos.
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_Keith Talent - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:53 AM EDT (#43725) #
About "getting the heck out of the AL East". Doing that is giving up. Divisions go in cycles. Remember when the AL East was the weakest division in baseball: it only took 88 wins to take it in the late 80s. In the AL West you could be a division champ by just clearing .500 five years ago: now look at it - 3 postseason-worthy teams.

I don't like hearing it when JP blames the AL East for the Blue Jays problems. It is a crutch. Boston will fade. And if New York buys every player: who cares? That's why we have the Wild Card. The Blue Jays need to worry about he Blue Jays, that's it.
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_Christopher - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:55 AM EDT (#43726) #
It does seem a bit like giving up.

That's how I feel. Yes it would be easier for the Jays to compete if they were in pretty much any other division, but deep down I want to beat the Sox and Yankees sooooo badly.
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Named For Hank - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#43727) #
Yeah, I see you there, Christopher. Didn't yesterday feel so good? I'd miss that.
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_Spicol - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:00 AM EDT (#43728) #
Help me out here: why would Baltimore and Washington being in the sme division be a bad thing? I suppose it might have an positive impact on TV dollars if the area had an AL product and an NL product but I don't know if TV audiences care: baseball is baseball to many fans. The benefit of being so close is an instant high profile rivalry and would serve to cause the fans of both teams to go nuts for 20 games a year. That rivalry should be long lasting, extending far past when the rosy new team glow wears off after a couple of years.
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_RhyZa - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:00 AM EDT (#43729) #
I don't think its about making friends, it's about creating an environment which is most conducive to being successful in and I guess I put a little more stock into the damaging effects of constant negative mainstream press can have on a market and maybe even the team on the field in its quest to win. I know that it doesn't fit in with JP's personality type, he's a straight shooter, and those that know the game appreciate it and those that don't just write up pseudo intellectual cliched garbage (Griffin's sluggishness article takes the cake, I thought I was reading a pre schooler's article.. especially his brilliant closing). If your asking me to choose between a 'nice' GM and someone that just cares about winning, I don't think I even have to answer that. Whether it's possible to have a better balance, and incorporate better people skills within the win at all costs equation then I don't think that should be summarily dismissed either; one is not mutually exclusive of the other. Not that this would change anything in the relationship with some of the bonehead columnists, but in general I think that might be one of JP's weaknesses.
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_Kyle from Winni - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:01 AM EDT (#43730) #
First time poster, long time reader. If Washington or Norfolk do get a team, why not move the Jays to the AL Central instead of the NL. Most clubs in the AL Central have the same budget as us and we might actually have a shot of winning that division next year, if we stay healthy. You will miss out on the draw of the Yankees and Red Sox, but at least you might be in playoff contention in September, which might make up for that.

Jeff Blair is by far the best baseball writer (outside of SF and Scott Carson) in Toronto. That is why I have a weekly subscription to the Globe & Mail.

Keith Talent, you nailed it with the Boomhauer comment. I was thinking the exact same thing last night.
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_Keith Talent - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:03 AM EDT (#43731) #
I wasn't around to see how the flamewar started, so I don't know who's to blame. I'm guessing when JP started jettisoning the likes of Alex Rodriguez and Mondesi the baboon started tapping his keys and a column came out - and he's been tapping out varieties of the same column ever since.
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_Keith Talent - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:05 AM EDT (#43732) #
Alex Gonzales, not Rodriguez

Thanks Kyle.
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_dp - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:06 AM EDT (#43733) #
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/newsblog_discussion/22276/
I know some of you were in the "Riccardi classless in firing" thread at Primer (COMN)- really some strong anti-JP sentiments there, and not just irrational ones like from Plastic Bag. It is curious to see how he's perceived by those outside Toronto, and outside this circle. JP tends to get a lot of free passes on this site; the only people who really speak negatively about him are trolls, usually gone in a couple of days.

Managerial candidates- Someone mentioned Bobby Valentine. He'd be a draw for the fans- makes the game more about him than about the team sometimes. In terms of personality, he'd clash strongly with JP. But he's a great in-game strategist, willing to do unconventional things to win (which may not be smart, but does make the game a lot more interesting).
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_Paul D - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:08 AM EDT (#43734) #
Spicol, my guess is that Angelos would be paranoid that people who want to see Yankee and Red Sox games will go to Washington instead of Baltimore.
If you leave Washington in the National League, then they instantly become Baltimore's rival for interleague play, and that also works out well.
I think Craig posted this before, but if that happens then there are 4 teams in the AL and 6 in the NL without a natural rival in the other league. Personally, I'd like to see the Jays play Detroit as their rival, regardless of league.

Any realignment that puts Toronto in the same division as Detroit sounds good to me.
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_Marc - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:09 AM EDT (#43735) #
I really like the idea of moving Washington into the AL east and sending the Jays packing (any other division...please). It might actually help Baltimore sell tickets. With a shorts distance, any time Washington plays in Baltimore, fans are bound to flock there to watch, thus selling more tickets and padding Angelos' wallet.
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Craig B - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:09 AM EDT (#43736) #
First time poster, long time reader. If Washington or Norfolk do get a team, why not move the Jays to the AL Central instead of the NL.

Primarily because teams don't get to pick what division they will play in; it's decided by the league. There is no reason to put the Blue Jays in the AL Central; who would you move out?

I understand the attraction to Jays fans to be in the weak-but-strengthening AL Central, but otherwise it has nothing to recommend it.
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_Spicol - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:12 AM EDT (#43737) #
Spicol, my guess is that Angelos would be paranoid that people who want to see Yankee and Red Sox games will go to Washington instead of Baltimore.

Will somebody please rub Peter Angelos's back and tell him he's a good person and will still make lots of money?

Does anyone know if any guarantees been made to Peter by MLB that if a team does move to the area, that they will minimize the number of home games that happen on the same night?
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_Jacko - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:14 AM EDT (#43738) #

Finally, there's this item: Ricciardi says he's in the crosshairs -- Jeff Blair does the unthinkable: he brings up the war of words between the Jays GM and the city's two most prominent baseball columnists:

Finally! A little balance in the coverage of the Jays and JP. Methinks that Elliott and Griffin won't be sending any Christmas cards to Jeff Blair :)

Note to Elliott and Griffin:

Your job is to report the news, not be the news. It's sickening to see columnists as irrelevant as you two desperately grab for the spotlight that has been rightfully taken away from you. You want inside stories? You want inside dirt? Try playing nice for a little bit and maybe you'll get some access back.

Speaking of which, I was also livid with McCowan last night on the FAN saying you had to be a complete jerk in order to get on Elliott's bad side. Elliott started this war, not Ricciardi. He's been taking shots at him ever since he arrived in town. It's obvious from this morning's Sun (which I only read because I was waiting for my tire to be changed) that Jim Hunt also hates JP.

I wholeheartedly agree with the comments that JP has become a lightning rod for criticism, and taken a lot of heat away from the players. This is something the players are probably very thankful for.

Finally, even though there has been a whole lot of bad press and bad feeling in the last week, the Jays have finally become front page news in this town. Even bad coverage is still coverage, and might ultimately put more butts in the seats. It's been really weird seeing and hearing the Jays being the lead story ahead of hockey news, but that's been the case for the past 3 days.
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Craig B - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:17 AM EDT (#43739) #
I suppose it might have an positive impact on TV dollars if the area had an AL product and an NL product but I don't know if TV audiences care: baseball is baseball to many fans.

It certainly would have an impact on TV dollars. Brand positioning in the market is also helped enormously by the AL/NL difference. It's not out of the realm of possibility that Baltimore/Washington could make a good rivalry, but rivalries are not created by geography alone. Baltimore and Washington did not have a meaningful rivalry when they played together in the AL from 1954-1971.

I actually agree that Washington belongs in the AL; it has 70 years of history in the AL. But I don't see it happening because the stakes are different now... Washington seeks a team at any price, not on its own terms, and Baltimore is seeking to maximally extend their monopoly position. That set of factors make it not just likely for Washington to go into the NL, but make it guaranteed.
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Pistol - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:20 AM EDT (#43740) #
I suspect part of the reason JP is taking so much heat in this case is that he has become the face of the franchise

Anytime a GM fires a manager that he hired he should be taking some heat. After you fire a second manager that you've hired it's pretty tough not to place blame at the GM. Unless you live in Philly where Bobby Clarke can hire and fire guys like a talk show caller.

While I believe the front office wouldn't be so short-sighted, I hope that the team's record the rest of the way doesn't influence whether Gibbons is the permanent manager or not. It's possible he could be a great manager and go 20-30, or a bad manager and go 30-20. It's not the results that matter as much as the job that he does (handle players, communications, strategy, etc..). Ideally those two things would correlate perfectly, but that's not always the case.
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_Jacko - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:20 AM EDT (#43741) #

Interesting thought on the Fan right now: move Toronto to the National League when the Expos go to Washington (if they go to Washington), and make Washington an AL East team. Washington might appreciate the NY and Boston tourism and gate dollars, and Toronto would get the heck out of the AL East.

NFH, I think this would be a horrible idea.

I love it when Boston and NY come to town. The Dome is positively electric when all those fans from across the border are in attendance.

They are tough teams to beat, but with a couple good breaks I think they Jays can break through and steal a WC or division title from them over the next few years. Boston and NY are both tend to make huge long term sacrifices for short term gains. This makes them vulnerable. Sooner or later, Toronto is going to have a season like the 2003 Marlins or the 2001 Twins. One small stumble by either of the big boys, and the Jays will be in the playoffs.

jc
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Pistol - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:24 AM EDT (#43742) #
any time Washington plays in Baltimore, fans are bound to flock there to watch, thus selling more tickets and padding Angelos' wallet.

It's a short distance, but with traffic the drive between the two cities is frequently a nightmare that most people would avoid if possible.
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Craig B - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:24 AM EDT (#43743) #
Will somebody please rub Peter Angelos's back and tell him he's a good person and will still make lots of money?

But that's not what it's about. It's about protecting your investment... making it pay every dollar it's worth.
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robertdudek - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:25 AM EDT (#43744) #
Craig,

At some point in the future, both Washington and Baltimore are going to have good teams (1954-1971, they were never good at the same time). When that happens, being in the same division would create hysteria (the good kind) in that area.

I think it offsets the NL being different from AL factor. Now with interleague play, the same umpires and a common executive, and with AL and NL games available on TV everywhere, the differences between the leagues are no longer very relevant.
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_Kyle from Winni - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:26 AM EDT (#43745) #
Craig B. Sorry i wasn't aware that the Jays didn't have a choice of which division they would like to be in. I thought I had read earlier this year that the jays wouldn't be opposed to a move out of the AL East. You wouldn't have to move anybody out of the AL Central, you would have 6 teams. The NL Central has 6 teams. It would even out the NL and AL with 15 teams each. It was just a thought. Love the sight, keep up the good work.
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Named For Hank - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:27 AM EDT (#43746) #
Note to Elliott and Griffin:

Your job is to report the news, not be the news.

Hate to tell you, Jacko, but they're "columnists", which means that they're supposed to be the attraction. Or at least that's what they'll tell you.
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_Spicol - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:29 AM EDT (#43747) #
It certainly would have an impact on TV dollars. Brand positioning in the market is also helped enormously by the AL/NL difference.

How much so? I'm sure you're probably right, but I'd be interested in seeing some data if something is available that you know of.

Baltimore and Washington did not have a meaningful rivalry when they played together in the AL from 1954-1971.

That was a different time. Travel is relatively cheaper and easier now, not to mention that the Senators were perennially bad and not worth watching. A geographically based rivalry isn't automatic but it has a better chance of developing if the two teams are in the same division, especially since Interleague play won't likely be around forever.
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Craig B - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#43748) #
I think it offsets the NL being different from AL factor. Now with interleague play, the same umpires and a common executive, and with AL and NL games available on TV everywhere, the differences between the leagues are no longer very relevant.

Heh. Well, we will see. What do you think Peter Angelos and the new owners of the Washington franchise will think?
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Craig B - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:33 AM EDT (#43749) #
the Senators were perennially bad and not worth watching

I am amazed at how many people around here simply do not like baseball.
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_RhyZa - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:33 AM EDT (#43750) #
I prefer the AL... the NL bores me somewhat (although there are exceptions on both sides.. Reds, Royals). Maybe it's bias, but with the NY/Bos rivalry, Minnesota (emerging as my 2nd fav team), Oakland etc I'd prefer to stay on the AL side of things with no easy way out in sight (as naive as it may sound). And I prefer the DH over the pitcher having to bat too, yea I said it. *takes cover*
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_Christopher - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:33 AM EDT (#43751) #
Yeah, I see you there, Christopher. Didn't yesterday feel so good? I'd miss that.

I would love nothing more than to see a photograph in a year or two of a flabbergasted Steinbrenner, hair dishevelled from pulling at it, as he helplessly watches his aging Yankee team fall over and over again to the youthful, juggernaut Jays.

Plus it's great when the Yankees and Sox come to town. I remember how exciting it was in 1987 at Exhibition stadium when the Tigers came into town as the season was wrapping up. I was at a game where Juan Beniquez hit a bases clearing triple in the bottom of the ninth to give the Jays a 9-8 win. Fantastic. The feeling with Detroit hasn't been the same since they moved to the Central. Of course the fact that the Tigers have stunk since forever hasn't helped either.
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_Marc - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:34 AM EDT (#43752) #
...not to mention that the Senators were perennially bad and not worth watching.

Have you watched the Expos play lately? Aside from Vidro and Hernandez they don't have much separating them from a AAA team.
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_Spicol - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:34 AM EDT (#43753) #
But that's not what it's about. It's about protecting your investment... making it pay every dollar it's worth.

Oh, I understand. But Angelos gets very vocally defensive and regresses to whining. The reality is that this appears to be inevitable and there is room for both, especially if the new team is located just that much further away in Northern Virginia, and an intelligent businessman would find ways to capitalize on this opportunity.
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_dp - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:34 AM EDT (#43754) #
The manager's job is to get the most out of his players, which Tosca was clearly not doing. On the Primer thread, Tosca was evaluated for who regressed or developed on his watch, which is what I tried to do here when making the case for his firing. Guys like Gomez, Johnson and Menacchino were cited as evidence Tosca's doing things right, while the failure of Hinske and Phelps were downplayed...really, the move is about 2 months overdue, and I'm glad he's gone.
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_Paul D - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:35 AM EDT (#43755) #
Kyle, there's a problem with having 15 teams in each league.
It means that either you have an interleague game everyday, or you have one team with a day off each day.

Personally, I think 32 teams is the ideal number of teams for any league.

I'd like to see a new Brooklyn team that could play in the AL Central, and either Las Vegas or Portland in the AL West.
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_Spicol - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:38 AM EDT (#43756) #
I am amazed at how many people around here simply do not like baseball.

That's harsh - you should know me better than that. Of course I would have watched. But the casual fans aren't like you and I and teams that lose every single year will not draw as well. It's as simple as that.
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_miVulgar - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#43757) #
Does John Gibbons remind anyone of Boomhauer from 'King of the Hill' ?

Keith, and I swear this is true, I had opened this thread to post the EXACT same comment.

During yesterday's game thread, I commented on how hard it was to understand what the heck he was saying...

Y'all can give him whatever nickname ya want... but he'll be Boomhauer to me from here on out.
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Coach - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:41 AM EDT (#43758) #
Ricciardi is not a stats guy. He's a baseball lifer with a lengthy and decorated scouting and player development background.

J.P. also realizes that this isn't 1968, when an error, a stolen base, a sac bunt and a sac fly was considered a rally. Most of his critics haven't had an original baseball thought since then. What they (and a lot of radio callers who don't know any better) deride as the "Moneyball philosophy" is both a misnomer and nothing new; the Laws of Earl Weaver remain the best way to win today, especially in the DH league. Of course, players still have to draw the walks and hit the homers, which hasn't happened often enough this year.

...former players are some kind of magic bullet

People keep mentioning Molitor and Whitt, as if a familiar name is all it takes to be a good manager. While Molly would generate lots of favourable publicity for a while, much like Buck Martinez did, he hasn't exactly made the Mariners into a powerhouse. Ernie, doing an excellent job motivating the national team, is a fine candidate to replace Gibbons as the first base coach and catching instructor, assuming Joe Breeden moves on. Whitt as a big-league manager? Maybe someday, after he's paid the kind of dues that John Gibbons has and won a championship or two at some level of professional ball.

Hiring Molitor would be much like the Phillies replacing Larry Bowa (admittedly a wonderful, long-overdue idea) with Mike Schmidt -- it would inspire joy among casual fans who don't realize the potential for disaster. The Hall of Fame slugger and perennial Gold Glover might be a great bench boss eventually, but there's no guarantee that he's ready to run a team in the NL after half a season of leading the Clearwater Threshers.

He's not my cup of tea, dp, but regardless of his effect on a team, the Bobby Valentines of the world want too much money and a team that's ready to win immediately. What the 2005 Jays need isn't a figurehead celebrity or a "legend in his own mind" (LaRussa's going to be a free agent) -- they will be a very young team that requires a patient, hands-on teacher. With a better start in April and three healthy superstars, Tosca could have been the right guy, but circumstances dictated otherwise. Gibbons is potentially a very good fit; if he is replaced next spring, I'm sure it will be by someone with similar credentials.
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_Keith Talent - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:43 AM EDT (#43759) #
re: Molitor - the Mariners HITTING coach. Aren't the Mariners at the bottom of the league in hitting. And that's with Boone, Ichiro, Speizio, Olerud, Edgar...

I don't think there's much to Molitor's reseume.
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_vic - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:50 AM EDT (#43760) #
this was posted by "joey b" on baseballthinkfactory, and it's bang on.

Considering that in sabermetric philosophy the GM is usually considered to be far more important than the field manager, it's amazing to me how fast the manager always seems to take the axe when a "sabermetric organization" flops on the field.

bingo.

why don't i hire someone to run my ice cream shop, tell that person to try and sell our new feces ice cream, and fire him if the business fails. great idea, huh?

tosca takes all his philosophies on managing, throws it in the garbage, does everything ricciardi wants like a faithful puppy, and becomes the scapegoat when the team fails.

could you imagine the jays interviewing lou pinella for a job. "ok lou, you know all your philosophies on baseball that you've gathered over the past 30 years...screw em'. here's what you have to do, no questions asked.....hey lou, where you going? come back here!"

firing managers is par for the course. but if the gm dictates everything the manager does, maybe the gm should be managing the team himself.
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robertdudek - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#43761) #
Of course Angelos is whining - he doesn't want ANY team in Washington. The question is whether that team is in same "league" or not is a significant factor for him. I think it is not as great a worry as you suggest and is more than offset by the potential development of a very intense WashingtonAL-BaltimoreAL rivalry.
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_miVulgar - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#43762) #
I don't necessarily want realignment, but a more balanced schedule sure would be nice, especially if MLB ever expands the playoff format.

What better way to get fair representation of who should be in the playoffs than to have every team play roughly the same sched? (with some minor allowances).

Sure, the 'Dome is electric when the Yanks and Sox visit, but there's something to be said for beating up on the AL Central...
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_Blue in SK - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:53 AM EDT (#43763) #
http://www.slam.ca/Slam040810/col_hunt-sun.html
COMN for the article referred to previously by Jim Hunt. When did he start writing about baseball? He should stop.

He sounds like a puppet for Elliot - if they both say it lends credence to each other.
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_Blue in SK - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:58 AM EDT (#43765) #
vic, not to start an arguement but your logic makes little sense.

If that same ice cream owner, had the same manager for two years, and the second year had provided better employees to the manager but the results were worse the second year then who is at fault?

The owner? The manager? The employees? The people for not coming to buy ice cream?

I'd say it's a little bit of all them. But can you continue to let the downward spiral continue?
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_Moffatt - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:00 PM EDT (#43766) #
RE: Senators not worth watching.

The difference between a .450 team and a .600 team is one win a week. Even the worst teams ever still win 40 games a year. It doesn't matter who you root for; if you watch a bunch of games a year you'll see your team win some and lose some. Baseball isn't a sport where the best teams play .900 ball and the worst teams are lucky to play at a .150 clip. This whole "bad teams are not worth watching" stuff is so overblown.
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_whizland2000 - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:01 PM EDT (#43767) #
with the team in its current state i am going to ignore its poor record and turn my attention to the offseason. Can you guys see J.P. making a run at Ritchie Sexson and Omarr Vizquel. How much will it cost to bring them over here.

pardon me for any spelling errors in the names.
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_dp - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:03 PM EDT (#43768) #
Re: Molitor- he was a smart player, which should translate into him being a smart manager/coach/whatever. But as Joe Morgan demonstrates with his commentary, this isn't always the case.

I agree Valentine would be a bad fit for this team, but he is good at maximizing talent, getting guys into matchups where they succeed- basically, a good "spare part" manager. He conflicted a lot with Phillips in NY, and would conflict a lot with JP too. FWIW, Olerud never seemed to like him- two of the most oppsite personalities you'll ever find. But I'll never forget some of his antics- sneaking back into the dugout wearing fake glasses/moustache after being ejected from the game.

I'm curious, Coach- what's the difference in price between a no-name manager and a Bobby V (or more apt, Lou Pinella/Art Howe- Bobby V seems like he'd come cheaper)?
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_Scott - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:06 PM EDT (#43769) #
If Gibbons quit now, he would always have to be metioned as the Jays manager with the best winning percentage. Just a thought. :)
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_Spicol - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:17 PM EDT (#43770) #
It doesn't matter who you root for; if you watch a bunch of games a year you'll see your team win some and lose some...This whole "bad teams are not worth watching" stuff is so overblown.

Oh, but it does matter to the casual fan if the team is a loser for such an extended period. We're seeing the impact now to some degree with the Blue Jays and they aren't even anywhere near as futile as the Senators were, who averaged 94 losses between 1961 and 1971. So, if the casual fan didn't want to watch this bad team at all, they certainly weren't going to be willing to drive from Baltimore to Washington. That's why a rivalry wasn't created between the two teams then and that's why we can't use this piece of history as evidence a Baltimore/Washington AL rivalry might not be created today.
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_Moffatt - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:18 PM EDT (#43771) #
Oh, but it does matter to the casual fan if the team is a loser for such an extended period.

I know it does. My point was that it's overblown by the casual fan. Should have made that clearer. :)
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_Spicol - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:28 PM EDT (#43772) #
My point was that it's overblown by the casual fan

Ah, well that makes sense. I suppose these casual fans aren't necessarily fans of baseball though, and don't take pleasure in simply watching the game be played. I think these people get pleasure on being part of a winning side and on some level, pay to feel a bit a adrenalin and sense of victory. It's the same reason why the vast majority of people enjoy feel-good movies, even if it isn't a quality film.
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Coach - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:28 PM EDT (#43773) #
what's the difference in price between a no-name manager and a Bobby V

Well over a million bucks a season. Valentine supposedly got $6.4 million for three years in Japan this time around. I really don't know the details of any managers' contracts, but the "big names" are all getting seven figures, and it's safe to assume that a rookie on a two-year deal (Macha, Tosca) starts at a fraction of that.

I'd take the job for $100 K, but I can't afford to pay them a dime more.
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_Rob - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:32 PM EDT (#43774) #
I'd take the job for $100 K, but I can't afford to pay them a dime more.

From high school directly to the majors.

The Brian Milner of coaches, ladies and gentlemen.
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Craig B - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:36 PM EDT (#43775) #
We'll whip the hat around for you, Kent. Surely the job is yours if we can put together enough cash to buy J.P. the next Dave Berg.
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_Andrew S - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:36 PM EDT (#43776) #
Tosca being hired to impliment Ricciardi's plan and then getting the boot doesn't have to reflect particularly badly on JP. Tosca was hired to impliment JPs plan. Now either JP's plans blows (JP's fault) or Tosca couldn't impliment (not necessarily JP's fault).
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Joe - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:38 PM EDT (#43777) #
http://me.woot.net
Damn it Jordan, I am SO glad my exam started before this was posted. I CANNOT GET THAT SONG OUT OF MY HEAD.

I would have been answering a question and I'm sure it'd have come out:
"The Bernstein polynomials are t3, 3t(t-1)2, and wey hey hey it's just an ordinary day."
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_Rob - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:42 PM EDT (#43778) #
The Bernstein polynomials are t3, 3t(t-1)2, and wey hey hey it's just an ordinary day.

That's funny even though I have no idea what the song is.
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_Rob - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:44 PM EDT (#43779) #
Oh, I didn't notice the banner change. Very nice.
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Named For Hank - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:45 PM EDT (#43780) #
Thanks!
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Craig B - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:47 PM EDT (#43781) #
Re: Molitor- he was a smart player, which should translate into him being a smart manager/coach/whatever.

Interesting. I never saw Molitor as a "smart player"... in fact, he was a supremely gifted one who almost, but not quite, made the most of his superb talents. He was a good, even great, basestealer and baserunner, but otherwise not notably a "smart player"... despite his terrific athletic ability, he never got the trick of staying away from injury in the middle of the infield, and he was always a bit error-prone. He was very, very consistent though, which I suppose is a hallmark of intelligence.

I've always felt that singles hitters get credited with a bit more smarts than they deserve, and power hitters a bit less. Molly might be a good example.

I still think he'll be a fine manager!
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_dp - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:50 PM EDT (#43782) #
I'd take the job for $100 K, but I can't afford to pay them a dime more.

So that's why you've been kissing JP's a$$...

Just kidding. You've got my vote as long you promise to never start Dave Berg in left field or make 4 pitching changes in an inning...
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_Ducey - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:50 PM EDT (#43783) #
Considering that in sabermetric philosophy the GM is usually considered to be far more important than the field manager, it's amazing to me how fast the manager always seems to take the axe when a "sabermetric organization" flops on the field.

Hey vic, have you noticed that in every sport the coach or manager gets fired regularly. What is the average length of employment for an NBA coach - 1 yr?

Look at any team with a losing record that has not done as well as expected - how many of those coaches last - very few.

To blame this on Sabermatics is ridiculous. Lets try looking at the reality here. A new general manger comes in 2 years ago with a mandate to restock the farm with a goal of having a young exciting team in a few years. He has to dump a bunch of bloated contracts, tired old scouts, and bring in a new philosphy. The team does better than expected last year. The exact same offense (except less hall of famer Shannon Stewart) does nothing this year. Going into next year, there may even be an excess of affordable pitching on the team and the young prospects are starting to come up. Things are looking positive.

Have I got this right? Well in this context the team looks dead, there are questionable pitching decisions and many of the teams offensive players are in funk.

Do you plame the GM who has carried out his mandate under a shrinking budget? How? He is doing exactly what he said he was going to do. The only thing lacking is the performance on the field. Is the GM responsible because someone gets hurt or underperforms. Not likely. The manager may not be either, but the reality today is you fire the coach and wake up the players. Good on the GM who sends the message you cannot just mail it in.

For all the JP critics out there. Are you suprised he brought in his own philosophy? Wouldn't you hope a GM would have some ideas on how he wants to run the show? Wouldn't you hope he would carry them out? Was he just supposed to do things the same way as Gord Ash with the same people?

It has been a tough year but it was not unforseeable. I think we have a lot to look forward to with a GM who is going to stick to his guns, develop prospects and build a winner. What is the alternative? You want to trade League, Marcum, McGowan, GQ, Gross, Bush so we can get to 87 or 90 wins? I have had enough of that with Gord-O. I will wait a year or two - thanks.
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_Rob - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:51 PM EDT (#43784) #
I'll fix the italics.
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_dp - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 12:56 PM EDT (#43785) #
He was a good, even great, basestealer and baserunner, but otherwise not notably a "smart player"

I guess that's what gave me the impression. Had good instincts as a hitter, career SB% was 80%, consistently high OB% (even though mostly driven by BA). But then, I remember him most from his years with Toronto, and he was a vet by then. Plus he's one of my all time favorites, so I'm a little biased...
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_vic - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 01:04 PM EDT (#43786) #
If that same ice cream owner, had the same manager for two years, and the second year had provided better employees to the manager but the results were worse the second year then who is at fault?

The owner? The manager? The employees? The people for not coming to buy ice cream?

I'd say it's a little bit of all them. But can you continue to let the downward spiral continue?

that goes back to my disturbing example of feces ice cream. what if the owner of the store tells you that the only thing you can sell is feces ice cream. that's it. the manager may think it sucks and won't sell, but he has to do it. the business bombs. who's at fault?

if the product isn't selling, but the owner has complete say in what is being sold, what the manager and employees should do, etc, why isn't he mainly at fault?

i'll go by your example. let's say the business was successful a year ago, under the same management. who deserved the most credit for that? the owner, right? why is the owner creditted when good happens, but not blamed entirely when bad happens?

most people here and other places rarely mentioned tosca when the jays won 86 games, moreso how great a job jp was doing. now that the team bombs, why is tosca the man mentioned while jp gets a free ride? isn't that sort of a double standard?

tosca needed to be fired because the team was sucking and needed to do something. but if jp was calling the shots, from the top to the bottom, i don't see why tosca is the one being blamed for everything, while jp is the martyr.
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Craig B - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 01:05 PM EDT (#43787) #
Plus he's one of my all time favorites, so I'm a little biased...

I always liked him too, even though I hated, I mean *hated*, those Brewers. But you couldn't really hate Yount and Molitor, two guys every team would have died to have.
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Coach - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 01:05 PM EDT (#43788) #
I've always felt that singles hitters get credited with a bit more smarts than they deserve, and power hitters a bit less.

Agreed. One reason for this is that a "smart" player can sometimes make himself into a useful singles hitter, but no amount of guile will carry the ball over the wall if you don't supply the bat speed.

Just because Mike Schmidt had way more pop than Molitor and was a vastly superior defender doesn't mean he wasn't as clever. More importantly, being smart and/or talented doesn't automatically make you a great teacher or leader of men; Reggie Jackson is very bright but would make a truly horrible manager.
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Named For Hank - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 01:12 PM EDT (#43789) #
I don't think J.P. is getting a free ride, but calls for his firing part-way through the rebuilding process are near-sighted. In two years if the team is still performing as it has this year, I will be the first to start pushing for change at the top, but for now I'm going to wait and see how the plan pans out. Like I keep saying, the plan is not to buy cheap free agent players, the plan is to draft and develop quickly. To evaluate the plan based on what the team is doing now, with its fill-in and still-learning players, is just silly.
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Joe - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 01:19 PM EDT (#43790) #
http://me.woot.net
while jp is the martyr

That word... I do not think it means what you think it means.
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_Tommy - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 01:27 PM EDT (#43791) #
Inconceivable!
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_vic - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 01:28 PM EDT (#43792) #
without looking at the formal definition, i thought it meant 'victim', which is what many people are painting him as while tosca is the culprit. maybe it was used in the wrong context, but you get the idea.
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_Cristian - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 01:32 PM EDT (#43793) #
Interesting thought on the Fan right now: move Toronto to the National League when the Expos go to Washington (if they go to Washington), and make Washington an AL East team. Washington might appreciate the NY and Boston tourism and gate dollars, and Toronto would get the heck out of the AL East

What people fail to mention when bemoaning Yankee/Red Sox dominance is that the NL East has been won by the Braves for the past 12 years! It's really arrogant to believe that the Jays would have a better chance at the NL East crown. What's scarier, that the Yankees will always spend what it takes to win or that the Braves win regardless of how much payroll they slash? Besides if you move to the NL, you no longer have the AL Central to beat up on and the competition for the wild card becomes fiercer.

Even if putting the Washington team in the AL East was considered, does it not make sense to move the Devil Rays to the NL instead of the Jays? If MLB were to place the O's natural rival in the same division, why would they not do this with the Florida Marlins? The D-Rays franchise is struggling more than the Jays franchise. Giving them 20 games against the Fish might give them the boost they need.
I guess it's too much to expect Torontonians to think of those outside Toronto.*

*sorry, my western Canadian alienation caught up with me at end of my post.
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_GregH - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 01:32 PM EDT (#43794) #
but if jp was calling the shots, from the top to the bottom

But JP is not calling the shots from top to bottom - he calls the shots (ie supplies players and a philosophy of how to play them) within the confines of a $30 million budget (plus Delagado).

Very simply, the offensive players have not performed as well as expected based on their records as Jays last year and the veteran members of the bullpen have not performed as well as expected based on their records with other teams in other years.

It is entirely possible, particularly with respect to the offense, where we all noticed issues involving "pressing" and "trying to do too much", that the atmosphere responsible for that was created by the manager. I thought JP's comment on The Fan on Sunday, that for the rest of the year he wanted the players to just let their natural abilities work for them, was very revealing.

The real "villain", all but ignored by all the press columnists, is ownership. I remember when Rogers bought the team there was a general euphoria that finally there was local ownership again and that money would be spent to bring a Championship. When JP was hired and started reducing the payroll by getting rid of deadwood, that feeling continued. I, at least, never dreamed that the Jays would be hampered by a payroll stuck around $50 million once the deadwood was cleared.

Imagine what JP could do with a payroll of around $70 million. Imagine the vote of confidence in the team's future that the announcement of such a payroll would be. Even casual fans might notice and, if that $70 million team started to do well, especially in April, might even go to the ballpark or tune in on (Rogers) TV.

BTW Intriguing idea about joining the NL East. Hmmmmm...
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_Mick - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 01:38 PM EDT (#43795) #
Boy, if you thought Angelos had a problem with a team in D.C. at all, just try to tell him "Oh, and they'll be an A.L. team like the Orioles. Oh, and they'll be in your division! Isn't that great, Petey?"

Whatever MLB has done to talk Angelos out of a territorial rights lawsuit, I think that would be a deal-killer.
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robertdudek - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 01:40 PM EDT (#43796) #
What's scarier, that the Yankees will always spend what it takes to win or that the Braves win regardless of how much payroll they slash?

Do you really believe this about the Braves? The Braves are in clear decline, their farm system isn't nearly as productive as it once was and someday Cox and Mazzone will be gone - perhaps soon.

The only reason the Braves have continued to win is that the division is fairly weak, and Cox is a great pennant race manager.
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_dp - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 01:40 PM EDT (#43797) #
I still think the whole "imbalance" thing could be at least partially solved by giving NYC a 3rd team...move the Expos to Brooklyn....
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_Blue in SK - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 01:42 PM EDT (#43798) #
vic, so what's JP supposed to have done - fire himself.

If you feel strongly that JP should be the one to go (and I agree that he is not entirely without blame) then Godfrey (acting on behalf of the owner Ted Rogers) should have acted and fired JP. Which of course he didn't, because Godfrey believes that JP has performed well. Because other than on-field success, JP has done some very good things, such as restocking the farm system, some astute trades, and stopping (slowed) the bleeding financially.

At the end of the day, given that JP is still employed and he is unlikely to resign, and the team is underperforming , he had an obligation to act. He could have tried to trade some players to shake things up, which he did (Adams, Phelps, attempt to trade Delgado), and he could bring up some young players (Rios, Gross, Chulk). One of the last things at which he has control over is to let the coach go.

If your arguement is that the team (i.e. the players) are analogous to feces ice cream, I have to respectfully disagree. A Cy Young, 2 other ML calibre pitchers (one an allstar), 2 young pitchers with loads of potential, 2 relief pitchers that have surpassed expectations, a couple of proven ML relief pitchers, a 2003 MVP candidate, a potential GG 2nd baseman, a previous rookie of the year at 3rd base, a superstar to be CF, a minor league MVP in RF, etc... I probably missed some. Injuries and this year's performance aside the majority of the starting players are quality ML players. Some of the back ups are so-so, but with a 50 million dollar payroll that is to be expected.

Are they playing up to expecations? - obviously not. Are they feces ice cream? - obviously not.
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_Scott Levy - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 01:42 PM EDT (#43799) #
The reason the Braves are still good is because Mazzone can turn any one of us into good pitchers. Jaret Wright has a 3.04 ERA in 130 innings this year. JARET WRIGHT!

Any chance we can steal Cox and Mazzone from ATL......
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_Mylegacy - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 02:02 PM EDT (#43800) #
http://www.immune26.tv
JP, and me and thousands of others thought that by now:

Halladay (healthy)
Batista
Lily
Rosario (healthy)
McGowan (healthy)

would be the starting rotation. Bush would be a replacement for Lily or an injured player.

When Henske went off the 'roids his defense went way up and his offense (power) went down. Phelps....sigh. Delgado was hurt more than was let on. This is truly HIS year from hell.

I could go on...

JP is working on a 30 million (+bigD) budget as GregH pointed out above. His drafts ARE GOOD. He is a SCOUT FIRST a numbers guy second. Frasor, Fredricks, Crozier, Hattig etc. are good "scout" picks.

Would you rather have Gord back? NO. One last point, you heard it here first, JP will NOT take Molitor he'll take either Gibbons or a proven TEACHER and MOTIVATOR.
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_dp - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#43801) #
There have been some positive developments this season, things that bode well for the future. There have also been some things that cast some doubt on the future.

Good:
1) Rios/Gross getting a shot- the Jays should know by the end of the year what these guys have. If nothing else, the experience will make them that much more ready to contruibute in 2005.

2) The emergence of Chulk/Frasor as the 1/2 punc in the bullpen- we don't know how these guys will pitch next year, but their perfromance so far is cause for hope.

3) Josh Towers- Making a strong case for being back next year.

4) David Bush- has shown a lot, again, even if he pitches poorly for the rest of the year, will have gotten growing pains out of the way.

Bad:
1) Regression of GQ, JF Griffin, Jason Arnold- injuries partially to blame, but this is bad.

2) Injury to McGowan- couldn't have been predicted, but this sucks...

3) Stalling/failure of Hinske/Phelps- Phelps is gone, the return they got is an unknown quantity. But the guy who could've been Delgado's replacement won't be, creating a power void. Hinske's situation is more troubling- though he's progressed with the glove, he's been a terrible hitter, and is going to be expensive over the next few years.

4) A-lo's complete collapse- after last season, looked like at least an 8th inning guy, now completely worthless. JP didn't look like he was counting too heavily on him, judging from all the offseason bullpen additions.

5) Lack of development by Adams/Hill- posting similar numbers, not very encouraging ones. I hope they get better, but right now they look to be barely adequate major leaguers.
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_Marc - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 02:26 PM EDT (#43802) #
The Braves are in clear decline, their farm system isn't nearly as productive as it once was...

Interesting fact... I was researching the Braves the other day and discovered than NONE of the pitchers (12) currently on the 25 man roster were drafted/originally signed by the Braves... So much for their development of young arms. When was the last time one of their picks really made a splash for more than a single season?
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_Jacko - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 02:27 PM EDT (#43803) #

1) Regression of GQ, JF Griffin, Jason Arnold- injuries partially to blame, but this is bad.

GQ: No doubt his timetable has been pushed back, but I don't think he's suddenly forgotten how to hit. Hitting is hard to do, and injuries can really mess up your timing. Because of his light workload this year, he's a good candidate for AFL and/or winterball. He'll come back strong in 2005.

JFG: Horrible through the first few months of the season, but has been much better in June/July/August. I don't think he'll be a star, but he's on track to be a decent middle of the order hitter.

Arnold: sucks that injuries have derailed his progress so much. Through AA, he looked an awful lot like David Bush. Not dominating, but a good variety of solid pitches and good control. Finally back pitching at Dunedin again. At the very least, he'll be a contributor out of the bullpen.

5) Lack of development by Adams/Hill- posting similar numbers, not very encouraging ones. I hope they get better, but right now they look to be barely adequate major leaguers.

The power isn't there yet, but everything else is (plate discipline, hitting for average, low strikeout rates). In the case of Hill, his home park has really knocked down his power numbers. And keep in mind that the 33 doubles that Adams has hit will be HR in a few years time as he gets stronger. At worst, the Jays have decent #1 and #2 hitters in Adams and Hill. Not slam dunks, but I wouldn't call them blown picks either.
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_Keith Talent - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#43804) #
There will be a new threshold for pain tonight: listening to the expert analysis of the Tosca dismissal from Rod Black and Pat Tabler.
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Named For Hank - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 02:46 PM EDT (#43805) #
KT, if we're lucky they won't know about it yet.
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_Rob - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 02:47 PM EDT (#43806) #
Heh, they probably don't.
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_Ryan01 - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 02:47 PM EDT (#43807) #
I simply can't see how Aaron Hill's season can be seen as a negative for the organization. The guy is a 22 year old middle infielder who held his own at AA less than a year after being drafted. If Aaron Hill is a "barely adequate" major league prospect right now then Rickie Weeks is a collosal flop and Gabe Gross would've been lucky to get a job as a ball boy in the independent leagues two years ago.
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robertdudek - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 02:51 PM EDT (#43808) #
I echo Ryan01's sentiments about Aaron Hill. My question for dp is ... What have you been smokin', man?
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_Jacko - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#43809) #

...in mind that the 33 doubles that Adams has hit will be HR in a few years time...

That should have read "some of the HR".

Also, keep in mind that not all prospects make a big splash in their first full season out of college.
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_Jacko - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 02:56 PM EDT (#43810) #
Jeez, I meant "some of the 33 doubles".

Detail oriented I am not!
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_Stan - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#43811) #
I would like to congratulate Jim Hunt upon his graduation from the Griffin-Elliott School of Journalism. "Wonderful piece of journalism in the Sun this morning".

Great players do no necessarily make good managers. eg: Ted Williams or Rocket Richard in the NHL.

Sixteen teams in each league with 4 divisions per league. Play a balanced schedule of 10 games per team. 4 pennant winners and next 4 best records reach the playoffs in each league. Shortened schedule would allow for more playoffs. Sustained interest for longer period of time.
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_Tenobia - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#43812) #
There will be a new threshold for pain tonight: listening to the expert analysis of the Tosca dismissal from Rod Black and Pat Tabler.

Looks like another evening of TV volume down, radio volume up.

BTW, is it my imagination or does Jerry Howarth keep pronouncing the name of the dog food Imas instead of Iams?
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Named For Hank - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 03:08 PM EDT (#43813) #
I thought I heard that, too, Ten.
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_Chuck Van Den C - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#43814) #
And keep in mind that the 33 doubles that Adams has hit will be HR in a few years time as he gets stronger.

I don't know Adams from, well, Adam, but if he is fast, then many of these could be speed doubles and not necessarily wall-knockers.
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_Jacko - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#43815) #

I don't know Adams from, well, Adam, but if he is fast, then many of these could be speed doubles and not necessarily wall-knockers.

Yes, they could be worm burners pulled down the 3B line, or they could be gappers, or they could be a mixture of both.

Can someone who's seen Adams play a few times shed some light on this?
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_Jacko - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#43816) #
Whoops, that should have read "1B line". I didn't realize that Adams was a lefthanded batter. In fact, it's pretty rare for shortstops to bat lefthanded.

The only other one I can think of (off the top of my head) is Jose Valentin.
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_Paul D - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 03:51 PM EDT (#43817) #
Is a catcher or SS that bats left handed any more valuable than a right handed one?

If you get good left handed production from those spots, you don't have to worry about finding a left handed 1B, or outfielder.

Any thoughts?
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_Jacko - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#43818) #
Not really (IMO).

2B, SS and 3B must throw righthanded, or they can't play the position properly. It's much harder to throw away from your body than it is to plant and throw across it.

So I suppose on a team that's already leaning heavily to the right, it would be a nice bonus to get a lefthanded bat from 2B, SS, or 3B.
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_BCMike - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#43819) #
2B, SS and 3B must throw righthanded, or they can't play the position properly. It's much harder to throw away from your body than it is to plant and throw across it.

Just curious, in the history of baseball, has there ever been an infielder(other than 1B) who threw left handed?

I once had a SS who threw left handed in High Heat Baseball ;)
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_Rob C - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#43820) #
There was plenty of criticism of Pat Gillick back before the World Series titles (Stand-Pat, anyone?), but after '92 and '93, he became a God to the Toronto media. Everybody loves a winner, but the flip side to that coin is that there's nothing like kicking a loser when he's down. To Elliott and Griffin, this season is a dream come true, because they get to run around yelling 'I told you so', but if the Jays manage to get to the World Series under J.P.'s guidance, will the bandwagon have enough space for Bob and Dick? Oh, can't forget Steve Simmons, who never met anyone he couldn't criticize.

I like J.P. for two reasons: he's a straight-shooter, and he's got a plan. He doesn't suffer fools, he doesn't f@#$ around, he doesn't waffle. If a decision has to be made, he makes it without blinking. He knows what he's trying to do, and he surrounds himself with people who will help him do it. Certainly it is premature to judge J.P.'s execution of his plan when we're only a couple of years into it, and I respect the man enough to give him the time for his plan to work.

Incidentally, if you play the Baseball Mogul computer simulation, J.P.'s strategy works exceptionally well. It always does take 3-4 years before you're consistently winning 90+ games, but I've taken every team including the Expos to the World Series. I'm convinced the strategy works in a small market, so for everyone who thinks J.P. should be tossed, I ask the same question other, more intelligent posters have asked: what would your strategy be?
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_dp - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 04:23 PM EDT (#43821) #
Robert-

This is Hill's AA line- .279/.357/.388. Adams has a remarkably similar line in AAA (.277/.353/.390).

Now, what I ask myself is if the player posted that same line in the majors, what would his value be? He'd be an adequate major leaguer, but nothing too special, and that's if he can make the majors without a drop-off in power. Neither of these guys is particularly young for their league. Seriously, what're your projections for Hill and Adams based on how they've hit so far? Does a .350/.390 line really give you confidence a player has any kind of star potential? I'd love to be wrong here, but neither one of these guys is showing the type of dominance that really good players do before reaching the majors...

I can do with snarky "what're you smokin?" lines, as if I'm totally off-base for suggesting that Hill or Adams aren't going to be all-stars...this isn't David Wright or BJ Upton, who put up better numbers younger...
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_Doug C - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#43822) #
http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/squirmi01.shtml
Mike Squires had a few games at 3B for the White Sox in 83-84. COMN for his stats. He's the only one I know of.
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_Paul D - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 04:30 PM EDT (#43823) #
2B, SS and 3B must throw righthanded, or they can't play the position properly.

Yeah, I realize that. And for some reason catchers apparently have to be right handed too, with a few exceptions. But you can throw right and hit left, which is what I was getting at.
I'm perfectly willing to accept that I'm wrong though.
:)
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_Brent - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 04:35 PM EDT (#43824) #
This is Hill's AA line- .279/.357/.388. Adams has a remarkably similar line in AAA (.277/.353/.390).

It should also be noted that Hill is 1.5 years younger than Adams, plus there might be some significant park factors that come into play in Hill's case.
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robertdudek - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#43825) #
Aaron Hill played 65 pro games before this season. The fact that he has produced the line you quoted is remarkable. Remember that you must compare his development to college draftees; it's been well demonstrated that it takes college hitters about 3-4 years to catch up to their high-school counterparts because of their late starts in pro ball.

This is basic stuff, and it isn't worth re-hashing. Your age fixation is getting irritating (not to mention that your comment "neither of these guys is particularly young for their leagues" is inaccurate).

Take a look at Nomar Garciaparra's first full pro year (which happened to be in AA)

1995 Nomar, AA Trenton, age 21.94 (July 1):

513 AB, 36 XBH, 50 W, 42 K, .338 OBP, .384 SLG, .248 GPA

2004 Hill, AA New Hampshire, age 22.28 (July 1):

402 AB, 28 XBH, 49 W, 49 K, .357 OBP, .388 SLG, .258 GPA

It's too early to tell if Hill is going to be a star, but this season has been a great success in that he's taken a huge step towards stardom and not away from it.
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_dp - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 04:59 PM EDT (#43826) #
Your age fixation is getting irritating

Robert, not to start a big war here, but your arrogance is getting irritating...anytime anyone disagrees with you on this site you act like you've got the monopoly on baseball knowledge...christ, you lambasted me last year for saying than Shannon Stewart was better than Bobby kielty, and we see how that's turned out. When you're right 100% of the time, you can take the attitude you do. But until then, tone it down man...it's a f***ing game, stop taking yourself so seriously...
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Craig B - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#43827) #
If I can jump in here.

Robert is presenting data. Now you may find fault with his demeanour, but he's not "acting like he's got the monopoly on baseball knowledge." He's presenting information, he marshals his case and backs it up well. When someone responds to you with facts and figures, the proper response is *not* to criticise them for being high and mighty. Stick to the facts.

We could all use the "lighten up" advice though, these days.
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robertdudek - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#43828) #
So I'm arrogant.

When I disagree with an opinion, I like to see that person come back with some sort of cogent defence of their position, or an admission of error.
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_Chuck Van Den C - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#43829) #
Does a .350/.390 line really give you confidence a player has any kind of star potential?

Talking in broad brush strokes here, MLE's for Syracuse players tend to be very close to their AAA numbers. There was a discussion and link to a page full of MLE's a while back.

So, setting aside the star factor of Adams, a simple question is this: would Adams at 350/390 in MLB help this team?

Gomez is currently at 340/350 in a season that may be a little better than people were expecting. Adams' 350/390 would be better than Gomez (and the ghost of Woodward) and while I don't know much about Adams' defense at SS, it certainly is unlikely to be any worse than Gomez's.

There's a great deal of knowledge about the Jays' minor leaguers at Da Box (though precious little between my ears), but I would think that Adams would at least help in the short term, even if he isn't the long-term solution at SS.
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Mike Green - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#43830) #
Actually, Brent, there are park factors operating for both Hill and Adams AA seasons. Hill's is a lot better than it seems; Adams was a little worse (due to the fact that he hit left-handed and there was a short right-field porch in New Haven's Yale field). Fortunately, Adams has made significant strides this year at triple A, once you account for park/league factors.

Anyways, Ryan01 and Robert are absolutely right. Aaron Hill is a fine, fine prospect right now, and I expect to him to make an appearance in Toronto late in 2005.
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Mike Green - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#43831) #
Oops, Adams is a switch-hitter, who of course, bats left most of the time.
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_Brent - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#43832) #
See, this is why we keep you around here Mike. :)
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_Brent - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 05:29 PM EDT (#43833) #
Oops, Adams is a switch-hitter, who of course, bats left most of the time.

Really? I always thought he was strictly a left-handed hitter.

Here is his 'Cube page. It could be an error in the data entry though.
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_dp - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 05:30 PM EDT (#43834) #
So Robert, you're projecting Hill to be Nomar? I look at these guys, and I say "these are the jewels of our farm system?" There's no question a middle infielder who can post a .280/.350/.390 line has value. But very little star potential, like, again, David Wright or BJ Upton, who advanced quickly and were dominant at their levels and younger than the competition. There's been talk of both Hill and Adams being moved off SS, which also impacts their value. If Hill moves to 3B and doesn't develop power, it's hard to see him being an asset there. So I'm saying before we pencil these guys in as #1/#2 hitters who're getting on base 38% of the time, I need to see them post those numbers in the minors...

How about an admission of error WRT Kielty/Stewart? I can do without the attitude...
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_Jacko - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 05:43 PM EDT (#43835) #

Anyways, Ryan01 and Robert are absolutely right. Aaron Hill is a fine, fine prospect right now, and I expect to him to make an appearance in Toronto late in 2005.

It might be more instructive to see how Hill and Adams compare to other college hitters in their draft class. Without making positional adjustments, there are high college draft picks out there from both 2002 and 2003 who are playing better than Adams and Hill:

2002 (Adams):

Khalil Greene -- 260/343/392 in MLB
Nick Swisher -- 265/417/515 in AAA
Mark Teahen -- 278/359/424 in AAA (about the same as Adams)

2003 (Hill):

Nick Markakis -- 293/363/460 at AA (about the same as Hill)
Brian Anderson -- 295/370/473 at AA (after 319/394/531 in high-A)
Conor Jackson -- 313/393/437 at AA (after 345/438/562 at high-A)
Carlos Quentin -- 377/459/568 at AA

Jackson and Quentin are both Diamonbacks prospects. They did pretty well in the 2003 draft!

However, it's worth noting that other high profile "can't miss" prospects are having similar or worse than Hill and Adams, or haven't even reached AA.

2003:

Rickie Weeks -- 253/365/398 at AA
Michael Aubrey -- 259/357/345 at AA (slowed down after promotion)
David Murphy -- 254/318/332 at high-A
Brad Snyder -- nice number at low-A, just promoted to high-A
Brian Snyder -- nice numbers at low-A
Mitch Maier -- hasn't made it past high-A
Omar Quintanilla -- still in high-A

2002:

Drew Meyer -- 232/300/303 at AA
John McCurdy -- 252/287/368 at AA (blown pick?)

So if Adams and Hill are blown picks, then 2/3 of the other teams who drafted college hitters in the first round also screwed up.

The Jays have pushed both of those guy up the ladder aggressively, which has somewhat stunted their numbers. I think you could have gotten numbers that were superficially better by leaving Hill at A and Adams at AA to start 2004, but the Jays want them in the majors as fast as possible so they are being pushed hard.
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_Paul D - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 05:49 PM EDT (#43836) #
Richard Griffin was just on the fan, and I'm not sure, but I think my head just exploded.
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_Magpie - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 05:49 PM EDT (#43837) #
Kielty's having a truly lousy year (it looks like something happened to him about the middle of May) but he's still a couple of years younger than Stewart, a much better outfielder, and has a career OPS of around .770 (Stewart is around .815).

Not to mention he makes 350 thousand a year, and Stewart makes 5.5 million. Jury's still out on that one for me.
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Craig B - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 05:52 PM EDT (#43838) #
Let me deal with dp's points.

So Robert, you're projecting Hill to be Nomar

Obviously, he is not. He is saying that the two players are comparable at that point in their development, which they are. Hill could certainly develop to be as good a player as Nomar Garciaparra.

There's no question a middle infielder who can post a .280/.350/.390 line has value

No question. If that represented their maximum value, they would still be useful players.

But very little star potential

True, if that's what their "potential" was. The potential of both players is much higher.

like, again, David Wright or BJ Upton, who advanced quickly and were dominant at their levels and younger than the competition

I'm not sure the relevance of the Wright/Upton comparisons. Wright and Upton certainly both have superstar potential, more than Adams or Hill based on their professional record. Why the comparison?

There's been talk of both Hill and Adams being moved off SS, which also impacts their value.

No, the talk doesn't impact their value. If they in fact needed to be moved off SS, it would impact their value somewhat, depending on where they were moved to. The talk of moving those guys off SS tends to come, as far as I can tell, from people who haven't watched them play. Adams's defense is becoming a concern, though - I grant you. He has lots of time to turn it around.

If Hill moves to 3B and doesn't develop power, it's hard to see him being an asset there.

It's easy to see. Look at Bill Mueller, or Chone Figgins, or what Ryan Freel is doing.

If he had no power at all, that wouldn't be good. Almost all players have some power, though, and Hill is already displaying some.

So I'm saying before we pencil these guys in as #1/#2 hitters who're getting on base 38% of the time, I need to see them post those numbers in the minors...

Well, more than that, you can't pencil in guys to do that until they do it in the majors, either, or even then, because there are probably only 25 guys in the whole of the majors who get a .380 OBP like clockwork.

Hill (and Adams) have a pretty good shot at it, though, as prospects go.
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_Jacko - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 05:55 PM EDT (#43839) #

So Robert, you're projecting Hill to be Nomar? I look at these guys, and I say "these are the jewels of our farm system?" There's no question a middle infielder who can post a .280/.350/.390 line has value. But very little star potential, like, again, David Wright or BJ Upton, who advanced quickly and were dominant at their levels and younger than the competition. There's been talk of both Hill and Adams being moved off SS, which also impacts their value. If Hill moves to 3B and doesn't develop power, it's hard to see him being an asset there. So I'm saying before we pencil these guys in as #1/#2 hitters who're getting on base 38% of the time, I need to see them post those numbers in the minors...

dp, you're making some unfair comparisons here.

Wright and Upton were both HS draft picks. Wright in 2001 (38), and Upton in 2002 (2).

The Jays selected Gabe Gross in the first round of 2001 with the 15th pick. I suppose if they were clairvoyant enough, they could have taken David Wright, a much more speculative HS pick. But keep in mind that Wright was by far the best HS hitting pick of the 2001. A lot of the other HS picks in the first round were complete busts, while others are still toiling in the low minors.

Upton isn't even worth mentioning. He was long gone by the time the Jays had a chance to pick.

I can understand your frustration with Hill and Adams not putting up spectacular numbers like Upton and Wright. There's a 10th round guy from 2003 named Ian Kinsler that the Rangers completely fluked out on, and I wondered openly why they Jays didn't grab someone like him instead of guys like Jayce Tingler.

You need to realize that those guys are the exception and not the rule. Not many guys turn into Upton or Wright. You either need to take them with the #1 or #2 pick (Upton) and pay them millions of dollars. Or get really, really lucky (Wright and Kinsler).

If you compare Hill and Adams to their peers from their respective drafts, they are doing quite well.
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Craig B - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 05:57 PM EDT (#43840) #
There's a 10th round guy from 2003 named Ian Kinsler that the Rangers completely fluked out on, and I wondered openly why they Jays didn't grab someone like him instead of guys like Jayce Tingler.


Yeah, I think I popped an artery on that one. :) (For which, in my new calmer persona, I say "sorry".)
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_Jacko - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 05:58 PM EDT (#43841) #

Richard Griffin was just on the fan, and I'm not sure, but I think my head just exploded.

I missed it Paul.

Once you put your head back together, can you provide an executive summary of what he said?

jc
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_dp - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#43842) #
I'll take Stewart. We're talking about who is the better player, not who makes more. Stewart has an established track record, Kielty doesn't, which is why it wasn't a shocker to see Kielty fail with Toronto, not a shocker to see him fail now. If Stewart, who been around .300/.370/.420 since 1999, was hitting .206/.306/.362 then it would be a huge shock. But Kielty just didn't have enough AB for us to say much for certain about him. Stewart's at .302/.380/.423 this season, and posted much better numbers than Kielty post-trade. No amount of defense can close that gap...
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_JackFoley - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:07 PM EDT (#43843) #
Surprisingly, Stewart has just about 20 more AB's this season than Kielty and one has to wonder if Kielty would have more if he weren't fighting with injuries. Personally speaking, I've considered that trade Stewart for Lilly and in my mind that is a fine, fine deal.
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Named For Hank - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:08 PM EDT (#43844) #
Share, Paul, share!
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_dp - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:16 PM EDT (#43845) #
I'm using Upton and Wright as guys I'm comfortable projecting great things from. Nether Hill or Adams look like great hitters at this point. Maybe we won't need them to be if the outfield hits like it's capable of, if Hinske gets better, or if GQ makess progress next year after a lost season in AAA. I don't recall saying they were blown picks, just that they didn't inspire awe with their perfomance this year. "Barely adequate" was a mistake, maybe "average" is better...
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_miVulgar - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:20 PM EDT (#43846) #
I'll take Stewart. We're talking about who is the better player, not who makes more.

Obviously, Stewart is a better ballplayer. I have a suspicion that when it's all said and done, he'll probably have had a better career, too, despite his injury woes.

But since Kielty = Lilly, combined with the circumstances surrounding that deal (pending FA, price tag), I'm sure happy Kielty was a Blue Jay!
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_miVulgar - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:20 PM EDT (#43847) #
I'll take Stewart. We're talking about who is the better player, not who makes more.

Obviously, Stewart is a better ballplayer. I have a suspicion that when it's all said and done, he'll probably have had a better career, too, despite his injury woes.

But since Kielty = Lilly, combined with the circumstances surrounding that deal (pending FA, price tag), I'm sure happy Kielty was a Blue Jay!
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_Magpie - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:23 PM EDT (#43848) #
I'll take Stewart. We're talking about who is the better player, not who makes more.

Certainly if I was writing out a lineup card for tonight's game, I would much rather write in Stewart's name than Kielty's. But it is still quite possible that going forward Kielty will be a more valuable property.
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_Ace - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:27 PM EDT (#43849) #
Vic, your ice cream analogy is so off base. By using feces ice cream as an example (which I don't think ANYONE likes). You've predisposed one side of the argument to failure right from the start. Try it like this.

The owner of JP Gelato decides that cow milk based ice cream is out, instead he decides to use soy milk based ice cream (for arguments, not reality sake), which also is cheaper than cow's milk and healthier (let's just say). He hires his manager to work in his strore and sell his soy based ice cream, the manager takes the job but doesn't believe that soy ice cream won't work. Meanwhile all the food critics in the city deride and insult JP Gelato for not sticking to 'traditional' ice cream. Now lets say that in the next year JP Gelato does really well, but the following year falls below expectations. Whose to blame? The owner, the manager, the soy milk, the emloyees, or how about the food critics? Maybe it's all of them, but someone had to take the fall right?
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_DJ - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:28 PM EDT (#43850) #
Jackson and Quentin are both Diamonbacks prospects. They did pretty well in the 2003 draft!

Both Lancaster and El Paso are crazy hitters' parks.
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_JohnnyS99 - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:33 PM EDT (#43851) #
Keilty more valuable then Stewart..not a chance, i think we saw Keiltys cieling.
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_P Smith - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:33 PM EDT (#43852) #
I also heard the Griffin interview. The points that I remember:

- He likes J.P. and thinks he's a good baseball man. But he feels obligated to criticize what he sees are problems with the organization.

- He was critical of the way J.P. fired Carlos Tosca, and the reasons he gave for doing it, not of the firing itself

- When Griffin was PR man with the Expos, Dave Dombrowski fired Buck Rodgers on an off-day, and didn't allow him to meet the press or the players. Griffin, on his own, organized a meeting with Rodgers and the press in a pub, and later was taken to task by Dombrowski

- Griffin and Ricciardi met during the winter to try to iron out their differences. Since the All-Star break, the lines of communication have broken down (obviously, Griffin blames J.P. for the breakdown)

- As a scout who often worked alone or with Billy Beane, J.P. has never learned any people skills, and has acquired some of Beane's prickly attitude

- They replayed the interview on the fan, when J.P. said that Griffin doesn't know anything about baseball. Griffin defended his history as a writer and as a PR man, and claimed to have witnessed over 4000 games in person

- When Griffin wrote an article on Chris Woodward, he interviewed Woodward, then tried to get J.P.'s side of the story. J.P. walked away without saying anything

- Bob Elliott was off-base in saying that Tosca was a puppet for J.P. Tosca bought into the program when he was hired, and had a reasonable amount of control over managing decisions

The basic tone of the interview was "J.P. doesn't like me, and I can't help that. I've got a job to do."

That's about all I can recall; any additions or corrections are welcome.
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_Paul D - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#43853) #
Well I only caught the last half of if on my way home, but here's what I remember:

Griffin says he has no problems with JP or his philosophy
Griffin says Woodwards agent told Griffin that he wanted a trade, and Griffin tried to ask JP about it, but when he approached JP, JP just walked away, so he ran with the story as he knew it.
Says JP's comment about Tosca being able to use a phone to get in touch with the player's shows that he doens't know how to deal with people.
Says JP has alot of growing up to do.
Says JP shouldn't let his ego take over.
Griffin says he's been around alot longer than JP and has seen alot of managers fired.
Says he agrees with the firing, but not the reasons for it. Says Tosca would have prefered to have been fired after the all star break, like Jimy WIlliams

That's all I remember...
The one of the co hosts said that a sportsnet guy asked JP if Gibbons would be a better manager than Tosca, and JP replied that he doesn't have a crystal ball. He and McGowan say JP doens't like the media. McGowan then goes on a rant about ego. Says that he's been around 30 years, and he knows that people get into trouble if they think they know more than us (us being the media). After all, he's been around for 30 years. Says that Lenny Wilkens was the last guy in this town that thought like that, and look where he got.
Oh yeah, he also said something about having listened to what Griffin said, and that based on that it's obvious that Griffin doens't have a problem with JP or an axe to grind. Apparenlty Bobby can't read.

That's about it. Then I pulled into the drive way and turned off ther radio.
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_Jonny German - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#43854) #
I heard Griffin on the fan. He painted himself very much the victim, claiming no ill will towards JP and that he likes JP as a person and thinks he's a good baseball man. He also claims he was supportive of JP when he first came to Toronto, I don't recall if this was true or not. He believes JP has a problem dealing with people in general, and speculates that's why he fired Tosca in the manner he did. He toots his own horn for writing a columnn after the All-Star break in which he speculated that Tosca would be dismissed and replaced by Gibbons, and paints this as evidence that JP is the irrational one -"What I'm writing is true, so what's his problem with me?". He claims that Bob Elliott "is not some kind of attack dog", and that Elliott's problem with JP is not about scouts being fired, but again, the manner in which they were fired. Griffin says he recently went up to ask JP about a rumour that Woody had asked to be traded, and that JP just walked away.

It was a good bit of politics for Griffin. If you had heard it, without having read Griffin's bunk and recognized what bunk it is, you'd believe that JP was a real jerk.

McCown played the clip where JP said "there's an invention called the phone". Truth be told, I thought it illustrated Griffin's argument very nicely, JP sounded pretty cold. Is JP a bad people person who doesn't handle his employees well? I don't think so. I think he's not much of a politician, which gets him in trouble with the media. Good for him.
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_Magpie - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:46 PM EDT (#43855) #
Take a look at Nomar Garciaparra's first full pro year (which happened to be in AA)

I wonder if the Boston folks were disappointed with Nomar's year at the time? He had hit a little better the year before, in his brief exposure to A ball after coming out of Georgia Tech...

Anyway, the thing about Garciaparra... the next year, in 1996 (age 23), he made a HUGE leap forward, as young players do sometimes. He absolutely abused the International League, and finished the season in Boston.

We can't count on Hill matching that. Some players make a big jump, some basically don't get much better than they were at age 22 (Alex Gonzales, anyone?). But if Hill simply continues to develop like a regular guy, he should be a good major leagu infielder.
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_Jonny German - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:50 PM EDT (#43856) #
i think we saw Keiltys cieling.

We saw Kielty hit .233/.342/.376 in his 189 Toronto at-bats. In 2002, with the Twins, he hit .291/.405/.484 in 289 at-bats.

Did we see his ceiling, johnnys99? This is not a rhetorical question: Answer it, or I'll continue with the assumption that logic is not something you bother with.
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_Paul D - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:51 PM EDT (#43857) #
I read today on Primer that JP knew that Beanne was in love with Kielty.

So he got him knowing that he'd be able to get Beane to overpay for him in the offseason.
Don't know if it's true, but it's interesting.
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_Keith Talent - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:52 PM EDT (#43858) #
I think it's unheard of for a fired person to address to the entire organization he was just fired from - especially the very moment he was fired. I think you take every measure to make sure Tosca can't address the group. Why would you want him pissing in the well on his way out? I know Tosca is a professional and would likely not do that. But who knows what a man is capable of at such a vulnerable time. From his press conference you could tell Tosca was beginning to lose composure, get emotional, and make excuses like the Blue Jays always finish the year hot.

Can you think of any time an employer of yours who was just dismissed was able to congregate the entire group of workers to say good-bye? If such a thing were to happen, what are the chances it would be a spiteful good-bye, that it might suck the energy out of the group?
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_vic - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:55 PM EDT (#43859) #
i'm not saying jp shouldn't have fired tosca. i agreed with it. the team was doing very badly, so someone had to take the fall. it's just that blaming tosca while every excuse in the book is used to defend ricciardi is unfair.

fact: the prerequesite of the blue jays manager job is to be j.p. ricciardi's faithful servant. tosca was supposedly known to be a steals, hit and run, type of manager before getting the jays job. he gave up everything he did as a manager in the minors, and did everything ricciardi wanted.

it's amazing how little respect tosca gets around here. case in point, look at 2003. the team won 86 games despite having one good starter the whole year (escobar was half the year), one of the worst bullpens i have ever seen compiled, and a starting lineup that included six everyday players at 27 years of age or younger and with 3 years or less experience. but tosca gets no credit for that, right? obviously, the team collectively overachieved on their own (or due to ricciardi's genius), while they underachieved this year due to tosca. brilliant.

someone had to take that fall. i agree with that. i also think if ricciardi is forcing his manager to implement his style, that he should be more gracious when firing the managers and should take most of the blame if a season goes wrong. i agree with griffin completely, it was a low class firing, specifically the "he can always phone his players" line or whatever that quote was in reference to firing tosca without letting him acknowledge his players. that's just unprofessional.

i said it before and i'll say it again, jp should manage the team himself if his philosophy is so great.
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_Jonny German - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:57 PM EDT (#43860) #
[McCown] then goes on a rant about ego.

This was hilarious, coming from McCown. He said something about people with egos that big not lasting long, in any industry.
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_Magpie - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 06:57 PM EDT (#43861) #
some basically don't get much better than they were at age 22 (Alex Gonzales, anyone?).

OK, I was just saying that off the top of my head. I thought I'd better look it up:

Alex Gonzalez, age 22: .243, .398, .322

Alex Gonzalez, career totals: .243, .394, .304

As it turns out, he's managed to post a better On-Base than .322 just once in his career (and that was in his 38 game 1999 season).
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_Jonny German - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 07:15 PM EDT (#43862) #
Vic, if you look closely you'll notice a key marked "Shift", directly above the one marked "Ctrl" at the bottom left of your keyboard. Try it out sometime, particularly at the start of sentences.
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_Keith Talent - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 07:22 PM EDT (#43863) #
It is hilarious.

Griffin is the judge of who has good people skills.
McCown is the judge of ego.

Dave Dombrowski fired Buck Rodgers on an off-day, and didn't allow him to meet the press or the players. Griffin, on his own, organized a meeting with Rodgers and the press in a pub, and later was taken to task by Dombrowski

It seems Griffin finds every firing "classless". You can't fire someone right after a game. You can't fire someone on an off-day. If JP fired Tosca at the All-Star break I guarantee you it would be the same baloney from the baboon.
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_Rob - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 07:53 PM EDT (#43864) #
I am so glad I didn't turn the radio on today.
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_vic - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 07:53 PM EDT (#43865) #
Vic, if you look closely you'll notice a key marked "Shift", directly above the one marked "Ctrl" at the bottom left of your keyboard. Try it out sometime, particularly at the start of sentences.

funny.

and no.
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_Dean - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 09:44 PM EDT (#43866) #
Well Jonny German, whats your logic in comparing Kielty to Stewart? Unless Kielty has a very major turn around no one will be talking about them in the same breath. The only good thing about Kielty was being flipped for Lily.
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Named For Hank - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:13 PM EDT (#43867) #
it's amazing how little respect tosca gets around here. case in point, look at 2003. the team won 86 games despite having one good starter the whole year (escobar was half the year), one of the worst bullpens i have ever seen compiled, and a starting lineup that included six everyday players at 27 years of age or younger and with 3 years or less experience. but tosca gets no credit for that, right?

Vic, what are you talking about? Since when does Tosca get no credit? What about all of the fights last year about how much credit to give him?

You're making up some "everybody hates Tosca, everybody loves J.P" absolute split that does not exist, and I cannot understand why -- do you think that to believe that J.P.'s strategy for team building can pan out you HAVE to believe that Tosca was worthless? Because that's so phenomenally untrue.

It even came out that the biggest criticism of Tosca, that he pulled pitchers too quickly, was more of an organizational strategy and was therefore not something that Tosca could be criticized for.

And Dean, are you addressing that post to Robert?
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_Jonny German - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:22 PM EDT (#43868) #
I was wondering that too, NFH, since I didn't even mention Stewart.
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_Jacko - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:33 PM EDT (#43869) #

I'm using Upton and Wright as guys I'm comfortable projecting great things from. Nether Hill or Adams look like great hitters at this point.
dp, it's a silly comparison. You can't bitch about Adams amd Hill not performing at the same level because they were drafted in either different years or at different levels of the draft.

Upton was a high draft pick we had no chance of getting.

Wright was a supplemental pick in the 1st round, but not in the same year as Adams or Hill. Comparing him to Gabe Gross would make a little more sense.

Every draft year has different strengths in hitting and pitching. 2002 was particularily bad for hitting, which is why someone like Adams (i.e. mediocre power potential) went so high.

If you're going to play the second guessing game, at least try to be logical about it.
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_Dean - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 10:38 PM EDT (#43870) #
Nope, Jonny took part of a post involving a Stewart/Kielty comparison and took a swipe @ the poster with his logic comment. Maybe there is some history there, but Kielty is batting .209 this year so his .291 with the Twins is a career year for him. I think that represents Stewart's career average over several years and not 300 at bats. And Stewart was one of my favourite Jays, except when he was trying to throw someone out, so any kind of Kielty comparison had me rolling my eyes, but I'm over it now:)
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_Jonny German - Tuesday, August 10 2004 @ 11:07 PM EDT (#43871) #
Johnnys99 said he thought we saw Kielty's ceiling. I pointed out that we most definitely did not. I offered no opinion on the issue of Kielty vs. Stewart.
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_Jacko - Wednesday, August 11 2004 @ 08:39 AM EDT (#43872) #

Ricciardi is not a stats guy. He's a baseball lifer with a lengthy and decorated scouting and player development background.

God, someone (anyone?) tell this to Bob McCowan. Last night, he was ranting about how JP was a nobody, and hadn't proved anything. And he also added something about the JP having not having anything to do with drafting Mulder, Zito, and Hudson.

He was director of player personnel in Oakland since 1997.

Hudson -- drafted in 1997
Mulder -- drafted in 1998
Zito -- drafted in 1999

If you're going to denigrate someone, try to get your facts straight first.
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Craig B - Wednesday, August 11 2004 @ 09:28 AM EDT (#43873) #
Lenny Wilkens was the last guy in this town that thought like that, and look where he got.

To the Hall Of Fame?

It would be bizarre to claim that Lenny Wilkens didn't have success in Toronto because he was disdainful of the media. (As bad as they are about baseball, the Toronto sports media are totally clueless about basketball - LW had a point). LW failed in Toronto (though not until 2002-03) because he was given a total of eight professional-quality basketball players, five of whom were hurt for half the year.

I've decided that this Ricciardi-Griffin pissing match, on all sides, is silly. I'm not going to take sides anymore, just ignore it as much as I can. When one of them says something stupid, I may pipe up. When one of them insults the other one, I'm going to look the other way. It looks to me like they are both trying to soften (a bit)towards the other, so hopefully we'll have seen the end of it.
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_Paul D - Wednesday, August 11 2004 @ 09:40 AM EDT (#43874) #
Craig, Lenny Wilkens is the winningest coach of all time.

He is also the losingest coach of all time.

There are many reasons that contributed to his lack of sucess in Toronto, but he was certainly a part of it. He no longer seemed to care, or be willing to adjust to today's game. He was once a great coach, I'm not sure if he still is. (I don't really want to defend McCown, but I don't want to see anyone stick up for Lenny Wilkens either) :)
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Pistol - Wednesday, August 11 2004 @ 09:49 AM EDT (#43875) #
Lenny Wilkens was the last guy in this town that thought like that, and look where he got.

To the Hall Of Fame?

Twice.
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Craig B - Wednesday, August 11 2004 @ 10:08 AM EDT (#43876) #
Paul, I thought Lenny's offensive sets were predictable and not up to modern standard - he depends too much on the creativity of his ballhandlers, in classic Lenny Wilkens style. Otherwise, he left nothing to be desired at all, and got good performances out of a mediocre squad that was gradually picked bare.
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_vic - Wednesday, August 11 2004 @ 10:57 AM EDT (#43877) #
named for hank,

how many times did tosca get blamed for everything that went bad this year? his bullpen decisions? his lineups? his "burial" of josh phelps (yeah, it's burying when you bench a guy hitting .180 against right handers)? look at the game threads this year, and tell me i'm off-base. i never said everyone felt that way, just the majority. it seemed like tosca took all the blame for the underachieving this year, while ricciardi got all the praise for the overachieving last year. that's not fair.
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_vic - Wednesday, August 11 2004 @ 11:02 AM EDT (#43878) #
lenny wilkens lack of success in toronto?

first year: 45 wins, 2nd round of playoffs, lost in game 7 by 1 pt

second year: 42 wins, made playoffs w/o carter, lost in game 5 of 1st round playoffs by 3 pt

third year: most man games lost due to injury, bad year, got fired

lenny was the coach during the peak of the franchise. i'd say that's a good thing.
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Named For Hank - Wednesday, August 11 2004 @ 11:06 AM EDT (#43879) #
Vic, Tosca was getting heat in the game threads from different people from the people defending J.P. here.

In fact, many of the anti-Tosca posts in the game threads came from one person posting under numerous different names to make it seem like a consensus. It's been quite irritating. I thought his ruse was transparent, but I guess it wasn't.
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Named For Hank - Wednesday, August 11 2004 @ 11:09 AM EDT (#43880) #
In fact, I think if you check out those threads, you'll see "people" complaining that Josh is buried, and then you'll see the people who defend J.P. here showing up with the numbers that defend his pine-riding.

Vic, I think you're actually on the side of the majority. Seriously.
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_Paul D - Wednesday, August 11 2004 @ 11:15 AM EDT (#43881) #
You know how they say sometimes a coach has to go because his team gave up on him?

I think in Lenny's last year he gave up on the team. He had no interest in being here and wasn't putting in much effort. (No, I don't KNOW this, I don't have special access to him or anything like that. I just think that's what happened).

What I think is scary for the Raptors is that the best coach they ever had was Butch Carter. (Brendan Mallone was allright too I guess).
[ Reply to This ]
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