anyone have any idea when we're going to see either of our first rounders from this year start a game? or are we going to have to wait for next season?

This is a little late in coming but my lady and I got to see two of the Jays A-teams in action last week - The Dunedin Blue Jays and the Charleston Alley Cats.

I was really excited to finally get down to Dunedin to see the spring training home of the big club. It’s not a bad park to watch a game and there’s no problem getting tickets. We snagged seats in the 3rd row behind the Dunedin dugout for $10 bucks total. Paying a visit to the souvenir shop at Knology Park, the lady working there said Clearwater always gives Dunedin a tough time. Yes, despite the fact Clearwater was dead last, her words were prophetic as the D-Jays fell 5-3 to Clearwater. What really sucked was I made the wrong call in deciding whether to head to Tampa Bay first or Dunedin. The night we saw the D-Rays lose 5-2 to Boston (CG by Schilling), the D-Jays edged Clearwater 5-4. Of course, the night we went to Dunedin, the D-Rays rallied from 4-1 down to beat Boston 5-4.

Still, the Dunedin game we went to last Wednesday was a decent one. Justin James got the start and he got through the 1st inning but he ran into trouble in the 2nd. It all started innocently enough, James gave up an infield single to short on a close play at first with one out. James got the next batter but then the trouble began. James almost got out of the inning but a wild pitch on a swinging strike 3 kept the inning going and then the flood gates opened, leading to 5 consecutive hits and 5 runs. It would have been 6 runs but a Thresher player was tagged out in a run down between 3rd and home.

The D-Jays got one back in the bottom half of the inning as Raul Tablado walked and Miguel Negron doubled to put runners at 2nd and 3rd with nobody out. However, a Ryan Roberts sac fly was the best the D-Jays could do as Negron was stranded at 3rd, making it 5-1 after two. In the 3rd inning, Justin James struggled again after getting 2 quick outs - he loaded the bases thanks to plunking 2 batters but managed to keep the Threshers from adding to their lead. James only lasted through 4 innings before Tommi Ozuna and Tracy Thorpe pitched shut-out relief the rest of the way with Ozuna going 3 2/3 innings while Thorpe nailed down the final 4 outs. Thorpe was just bringing it every pitch. There was no radar gun at Knology park but he was throwing the gas, striking out 3 in his 1 1/3 innings, all swinging.

However, Ozuna and Thorpe also plunked a batter each – giving Dunedin a 4-0 victory in the HBP department. Amazingly, Clearwater didn’t retaliate or really brush anyone off the plate. Threshers starter Brandon Culp (who we hoped would pitch like Robert Culp!) settled right in after giving up Roberts' Sac Fly, retiring 12 of 13 batters at one point and went 6 strong innings. Thankfully, Culp was pulled by manager Mike Schmidt in the 7th. The D-Jays added their 2nd thanks to an RBI single from Erik Kratz, scoring Raul Tablado with a lead-off double. However, Manny Mayorson hit into a double play to end the inning, stranding Ryan Roberts at 3rd. The Clearwater pitcher that inning was 6-foot-7 righty Brandon Mayfield, who threw submarine style a-la Chad Bradford. The D-Jays had him on the ropes before that DP ball by Mayorson. The Jays made it interesting in the 9th. Raul Tablado got the ball rolling again by nearly blasting one over the left field wall but settled for a stand up double. Miguel Negron singled him to 3rd and a fielder’s choice by Ryan Roberts plated Tablado to make it 5-3. With 2 outs, pinch hitter Rodney Medina (batting for Mayorson) reached on an error to short to put the tying runs on base. However, lead-off man Jayce Tingler capped an 0-for-5 night by forcing Medina out at 2nd to end the ball game.

Unfortuanately, the D-Jays offence looked too much like the offence from the big club on this night. Leadoff man Tingler, number 3 hitter Ron Davenport, and clean-up man Vito Chiaravalloti went a combined 1-for-11 with a walk. Number 2 man Carlo Cota had a couple of singles but other than that, the top of the order did not produce. Big Vito, despite 3 K’s, was sharp defensively, turning a couple of 3-6-3 DP’s and just looked smooth around the 1st base bag. All I knew about him beforehand was that he could hit but he can definitely field his position!!

My three stars of the game for Dunedin.

1. Raul Tablado – 2-for-3, BB, 3 runs scored
2. Tommie Ozuna – lefty pitched 3 2/3 innings of shut-out relief
3. Tracy Thorpe – 3 K’s in 1 1/3 innings of shut-out relief

The one thing I was pleased about my first experience at Knology Park was the playing of the original “OK OK Blue Jays” song in its entirety before the game, not that "rap-crap" version you hear now at the 7th inning stretch at the Dome. I almost shed tears of joy when I heard it, that’s how stoked I was!!! If anyone in the Jays organization is reading this, please bring back the original song, not that dance beat debacle that’s on now.

Okay, now our last stop on our baseball/Disney trip – Savannah, Georgia. This part of the trip was not planned. We had planned to see the Charleston Alley Cats at the beginning of our road trip when they were at home. We took in the Pirates-Braves afternoon game at PNC Park and the plan was to then head to Charleston WV later that day to catch the A-Cats which Mapquest said was about 3 ½ hours away. We knew it would be tight and we may miss a couple of innings but we wanted to see Watt Powell Park before the A-Cats move to their new digs next season. However, the traffic in Pittsburgh was pure hell, taking us nearly 90 minutes to get out of Steeltown. There was 25-thousand at the game and everyone must have taken a car, or so it seemed. I can only imagine what traffic would be like during a Steelers game when you get at least twice as many people at Heinz Field next door. Word of advice if you plan on going to PNC Park, don’t make any plans to get out immediately after the game. Hang out around the park and go for dinner. Still, PNC Park is worth the trip, it's absolutely beautiful. I have to nudge it ahead of Safeco Field for the nicest major league park I've ever seen.

Anyways, we figured our shot at seeing the A-Cats was out of the window as we had to be in Jacksonville to visit family. But, on our way to Florida, we noticed our travels would take us to Savannah, the home of the Sand Gnats. And wouldn’t you know it, the A-Cats were in town on the week-end we were coming back. So on Friday, we paid a visit to venerable Grayson Stadium in Savannah, home of the Expos South Atlantic League affiliate. The stadium is very charming, in a Kingston penitentiary kind of way. We asked for seats behind the A-Cats dugout but the netting behind home plate was basically in our face. To make it worse, there was fencing extending all the way to first and third base, so you don't get a clear view of the field. So, we sat in the only area where there was no fence in our face, the right field corner where we sat in the first row of the bleachers. The seats were really close to the field so it wasn't too bad. Unfortunately, the best part of Grayson Stadium was closed off to fans. They actually had seats in left field but the usher told me it was part of the old Grayson stadium and it’s closed off because the seats, which were made of stone, were falling apart. The usher also told me there’s been talk of renovating those seats but nothing has been decided as of yet.

A lot of famous players have played in Grayson Stadium, Babe Ruth, Sammy Sosa, Pete Rose, Don Mattingly to name a few and Savannah also boasts a couple of famous alumni – Eric Gagne and Rusty Greer.

As for the game, it was a good old fashioned pitchers duel between the Sand Gnats Devin Perry and the A-Cats Mike MacDonald – called up from Auburn to make his Charleston debut. Perry started the game on fire, striking out 4 hitters in a row in the first 2 innings. MacDonald gave up a hit in the 1st but stranded the runner and allowed a lead-off walk in the 2nd before catcher Robinzon Diaz threw out the runner trying to steal 2nd. In the third, Charleston loaded up the bases with one out on a Juan Peralta walk and singles by William Rivera and Diaz. It looked like Peralta would’ve had a chance to score on Diaz’s single to left but in Grayson stadium, it’s 290 feet down the left field line and 310 to right. That allowed the left fielder to jump on the ball quickly and prevent Peralta from scoring. That proved to be huge as Jermy Acey struck out and Rodney Medina (who we saw 2 nights earlier in Dunedin!) grounded out to end the threat. Savannah came close to scoring in the bottom half of the 3rd, as a single and stolen base put a runner at 2nd but a great diving catch by right fielder Rodney Medina ended the Savannah threat. The game would remain scoreless into the 7th inning. Though Devin Perry wound up striking out 9 batters over 6 innings for Savannah, it was Mike MacDonald who got stronger as the game went along. MacDonald set down 9 in a row at one point, striking out the side swinging in the 5th inning. He was just dealing. He gave up a single in the 6th inning but promptly picked the runner off to end the frame.

Just when I thought the A-Cat offence was resembling the parent club, the road team finally broke through. Clean-up man David Smith led off with a double and in the at-bat of the game, Joey Reiman singled Smith home to give Charleston a 1-0 lead. Reiman fouled off at least 4 or 5 0-and-2 pitches before getting the base knock. Reiman’s approach was terrific. He fouled off all the pitches to the right side of the infield in an attempt to at least advance Smith to 3rd. Then he got a pitch to drive by pulling it to left field for the RBI single. It was a thing of beauty!!! Great at-bat!! Mike Galloway followed up with a single and Eric Arnold had an infield hit to load up the bases for Juan Peralta, who delivered with a 2 run single. Robinzon Diaz added a sac fly to cap off a 4 run rally in the 7th. David Smith’s RBI double in the 8th scored Medina to give Charleston all the offence they needed as they hammered Savannah 5-0. Mike MacDonald pitched a solid 7 innings, allowing only one runner to reach second. Brad Mumma did a nice job in relief, pitching 2 perfect innings and striking out 2.

Three stars of the game

1. Mike MacDonald – solid 7 inning debut in an A-Cat uniform, allowing 3 hits and 1 walk while striking out 5.
2. Joey Reiman – broke a scoreless tie with an RBI single and scored a run.
3. Juan Peralta – two run single to break the game open in a 1-for-3 effort that also included a walk, made some very smooth plays at short.

Even though we didn’t get to see the A-Cats on their home turf, we did manage to pay a visit to Watt Powell Park on the way back. We could see why Charleston needs a new park. It almost makes Grayson Stadium look like PNC Park by comparison. The scenery is nice though, with the Virginia mountains in the background. The seating isn’t too bad but the outside and the bowels of the stadium has seen its better days. We also managed to catch a bit of the broadcast of the A-Cats but the signal didn’t last. However, the good guys rallied to win 5-4 over Savannah. Combined with the game we saw, it was a nice way to cap off the road trip.

Thigpen is heating up again and starting to take walks. Adam Lind has really found a groove and is adding some thump as well. I wonder if either of them will be fast tracked to AA in 2005 like Hill was this year.

The Jays do seem to know how to pick their college pitchers. Without Purcey or Jackson the Auburn team still has a number of capable arms though how many of them have big league stuff remains to be seen. Janssen has done quite well though and hopefully the two lefties get some action in the next couple of weeks.

Wow thanks #2JBrumfield. Great report. I was encouraged by your assessment of Vito's glove, that's an excellent sign.

Thanks JBrumfield, very interesting. What was your impression of Mike MacDonald, was he throwing smoke, or was he more of a crafty type pitcher?

Jackson is going to start mid August while Purcey will start on the 23rd i think. I live in Syracuse (30 minutes away from Auburn) and read it in the paper.

Jordam Timm was demoted to Pulaski after 2 starts in Auburn, he is one of the top pitchers in the Appy this year.

I wonder if either of them will be fast tracked to AA in 2005 like Hill was this year.

I doubt it. Hill his even better than both Lind or Thigpen at Auburn and had quite a few games at Dunedin under his belt too. There doesn't seem to be a lot of reasons to rush them anyway. I'd start Lind at Dunedin and Thigpen and Charleston (Robinzon Diaz is likely headed to Dunedin) and see how things progress.

Hijack:

This is totally unrelated to the Jays, but I thought I'd post an update on what Delmon Young has been up to this year. After a slow start, he's showing Tampa that he's going to arrive in the majors very fast. As an 18 year old in low-A, he's posted the following line:

.304/.362/.519, 21 HR, 96 RBI, 14 SB

Sally League pitchers have become less and less willing to pitch to him, and his walk rate has started to rise. It's actually a little surprising to me that Tampa hasn't yet promoted him. Since he's on the 40-man roster already, he'll probably be up for roster expansion in September. Next year, I expect a three level romp through the minors (like Andruw Jones and Vernon Wells). It would not be surprising to see him as their starting RF in 2006. At the tender age of 20. He's going to be very, very good.

Here are my suggestions for the Dunedin and Charleston rosters next year"

Dunedin
Justin James
Tom Mastny
Danny Core
Davis Romero
Kurt Isenberg

Brian Reed
Justin Maureau
DJ Hanson (healthy?)
Felix Romero
Joaquin Canizal
Brad Mumma
Matt Dalton

Robinzon Diaz
Chip Cannon
Jeremy Acey
Eric Arnold
Ryan Klosterman
Christian Snavely
David Smith
Adam Lind

Erik Kratz/Joey Wolfe
Joey Reiman
Brain Patrick
Jayce Tingler

Charleston
David Purcey
Zach Jackson
Mike MacDonald
Casey McKenzie
Chris Leonard

Casey Janssens
Brian Grant
Dewon Day
Joey McLaughlin
Eric Rico
Derek Tate
Scott Roy
Kyle Yates/Danny Hill (healthy?)

Curtis Thigpen
Joey Metropoulos
Brian Hall
Anthony Garibaldi
Juan Peralta
Nick Thomas
Yuber Rodriguez
Eric Nielsen

Brian Bormaster
Josh Lex
Graig Badger
Charles Anderson
Aaron Mathews
Jarad Mangioni

Lots of depth at starting pitching, first base, the outfield... not so much in the middle infield and I'd rather not have Arnold starting at 3B in Dunedin. I also think Tate deserves to start...

What was your impression of Mike MacDonald, was he throwing smoke, or was he more of a crafty type pitcher?

There was no radar gun at Savannah but I'd think it's safe to say MacDonald wasn't throwing smoke, like a Tracy Thorpe. MacDonald seemed to fall behind the hitters at first, but he began to throw more first pitch strikes and just found a groove as the game went on. I wish I could tell you what pitches he threw but it was hard to tell from our right field corner seats. I have to admit I have a hard time identifying off speed pitches. Sorry, I wish I had a better answer for you.

I was encouraged by your assessment of Vito's glove, that's an excellent sign.

I was too. Vito looked really smooth around the bag. If he makes it to Toronto, he could be the best Jays first baseman with the glove since Johnny O.

I took plenty of pics of the 2 games in Dunedin and Savannah. I wish I knew how to post them here but the Dunedin pics turned out better thanks to some great seats behind the dugout. The Savannah ones weren't as good thanks to those darn fences.

One correction in my report. Tommi Ozuna went 3 1/3 innings and Thorpe went 1 2/3 innings in the Dunedin game. I can't read my own scorecard :)

Also on the minors - I don't know if any of you watched "JZone" with the lovely Hazel Mae, but that feature on the Auburn Doubledays is making me want to go to Auburn. I may make the trip down either this coming week-end or next.

I'd like to see the F-Cats too, but New Hampshire is not quite as doable. Does anyone know the play-off format in the Eastern League? I just wonder if they make the post-season, would they play Binghamton? It's not super far from Syracuse so that might be a possibility if the schedule works out.

Does anyone know the play-off format in the Eastern League?

I believe it's two divisions, 1 vs 2 in both, then the winners play for the championship.

NH is in second place (3.5 GB) in the Northern Division, and Binghamton is in first. So if you want to see the F-Cats in the playoffs, all that has to happen is these two teams finishing in first and second, in whatever order.

From the minor league report on the Syracuse game .......

SS Josue Matos rapped out 4 singles as Russ Adams had the night off.

As the risk of sounding stupid, is this the same Josue Matos who was pitching for the Skychiefs? Checking out the boxscore, it had Josue Matos going 4-for-5 yesterday with an .800 batting average. The Syracuse.com story said Julius Matos had the 4 hits.

Unless Josue Matos is trying to become the next Brooks Kieschnick, I think the boxscore is wrong and it should read Julius Matos got the 4 hits.

the F-Cats in the playoffs

Should read

the F-Cats in the playoffs in Binghamton.

It was Julius who had the 4 hits. This is actually the second time the scorers have mixed up Julius and Josue Matos. The last time Josue was actually the starting pitcher and Julius the starting 3rd baseman but they listed Julius as the pitcher and Josue at 3rd.

I've corrected my brain cramp. Brumfield is the unofficial 4th Star for August 10.

Thanks, #2JBrumfield. I haven't read anything about Tablado's approach at the plate, or his defense, this year. I don't know if he was DHing the game you saw, but is there anything else you noticed about him? There is no newspaper coverage of the Dunedin games that I am aware of, so we really know very little of his current performance except what we read in boxscores and logs.

BA has the following blurb:

The Blue Jays' short-season Auburn affiliate continues to build on the best record in the minor leagues, improving to 37-11 with a 4-3 win against Staten Island. Righthander Casey Janssen, a fourth-round pick and senior sign out of UCLA, went 7 1/3 scoreless innings for the win and struck out seven, improving to 3-1, 2.48. Janssen was a two-way player for his first three seasons with the Bruins before sticking to pitching this season, when he went 10-4, 3.16.

I haven't read anything about Tablado's approach at the plate, or his defense, this year.

Mike, Tablado was the DH for the game I was at. The 2nd double he hit in that game to start the rally in the 9th inning nearly left the yard. He was easily Dunedin's best offensive player on the night. I just wish he had some runners on base when he came to the dish.

I would've liked to seen Tablado at short because I wasn't overwhelmed by Mayorson. He didn't commit any errors but Vito saved him an error by coming off the bag and there were a couple of plays where Mayorson showed the range but not a cannon arm, leading to a couple of infield hits. The infield hit in the 2nd inning was a key part of Clearwater's 5 run rally. Mayorson also killed a promising rally in the 7th by grounding into a DP, so it wasn't a great game for him. In comparison, I really liked Juan Peralta (any relation to Jhonny Peralta of the Bisons?). He made some nice plays at short and the Charleston announcer said he's been coming on as of late.

I also liked Ryan Roberts. I know this'll sound stupid, but he just looks like a ballplayer. I get the feeling we'll see him in the bigs one day. I hope I didn't just jinx him but I liked the way he played. I can't describe it any better, it's my gut feeling.

There doesn't seem to be a daily Dunedin paper, but there was one called the Highlander. I don't think it had a date on it and it might be a bi-weekly or weekly rag. It didn't appear to have much of anything to it. I didn't have change to buy one out of the mailbox, unfortunately.

On a final note, thanks for the positive comments on my report. I really appreciate it.

I also liked Ryan Roberts. I know this'll sound stupid, but he just looks like a ballplayer. I get the feeling we'll see him in the bigs one day. I hope I didn't just jinx him but I liked the way he played. I can't describe it any better, it's my gut feeling.

I think you have to like any second baseman that can A) hit 18+ homeruns B) Have an excellent eye at the plate C) play solid defence.

I'd rather see him move back to third where he was a gold glove candidate waiting to happen. Although his doubles are down, you have to like the combined 18 home runs. I don't think Hinske has secured himself in the Jays' future plans.

Also, someone said earlier that Quiroz has taken a step back this year... I don't think that is true or fair to say. The guy had a bad injury and missed a significant amount of time. He probably won't really get swinging good again until winter ball. That said, I imagine he still needs another half season in Syracuse. He's still one of the top 5 catching prospects.

Roberts is still too old for his league, AA will be a good test nextr year.

I really liked Juan Peralta. He made some nice plays at short and the Charleston announcer said he's been coming on as of late.

I'm glad to hear both of those things. Peralta was one sleeper pick of mine coming into this season that didn't work out. He showed great patience and burgeoning extra-base pop as a 20-year-old in Auburn last year (43 walks in 288 AB; as a 17-year-old in the DSL, he walked 52 times in 268 AB), but his average was only average. This year, though, has been a struggle in all categories, though he's up against older competition. I had been hoping that any young infielder with that good a batting eye could turn into something; if he's coming on lately, and has a slick glove to boot, that's great news. I'll watch for him again in '05.

I also liked Ryan Roberts. I know this'll sound stupid, but he just looks like a ballplayer

This jibes with what I've heard about him, too -- he has the skills, but he also has the instincts and the attitude to succeed in this game. He may shift back to the hot corner someday, if his power warrants it; but I think that if anyone in the organization ever replaces Hinske at third base, it'll be Aaron Hill.

There doesn't seem to be a daily Dunedin paper, but there was one called the Highlander

Heh. Glasgow on the Gulf Coast. The "Welcome to Dunedin" sign at the entrance to town features a little bagpiper. There's none so Scots as the Scots abroad....

#2JBrumfield's comments about Peralta jibe with everything I know about him. At Auburn last year, the pitchers noticeably improved from good to out-of-this world when he became the shortstop, and the papers and radio broadcasts repeatedly referred to his terrific range, and acrobatic defensive plays. The pitching in Charleston this year has, I suspect, also benefitted from his defence.

His hitting is, as Jordan describes, the issue. He's still young, and a slick-fielding shortstop always has a shot.

Roberts is still too old for his league, AA will be a good test nextr year.

23 is too old for high A ball? I don't know about that.... Roberts doesn't turn 24 until the season is over. I don't know the league average but I would be it's around 23.

The current average age in High-A is 23.

That said, the very best prospects will typically be advanced through the minors so that they are below the average age for that level. That's hard to do for college grads, though.

23 is too old for high A ball? I don't know about that.... Roberts doesn't turn 24 until the season is over. I don't know the league average but I would be it's around 23.

Of course, he is too old to be considered a prospect in that league. 23? Yikes!! 24 in AA, next year? 25 in AAA, the year after that, if we are lucky!!!

Travis Hafner was 23 when he played in high A, 24 in AA and 25 in AAA. I guess someone forgot to tell him he wasn't a prospect.

I dont think he needed to be told cause he wasn't a prospect until he impressed at higher levels, which Roberts hasnt. Roberts is not considered a legitimate prospect is he tearng up the league? Did he hit 300 in either league?? Talk to me when he improves his numbers in a higher level. I guess Tingler is a prospect as well?? Roberts has a long way to go. Did Roberts hit 342 in AAA, like Hafner. Roberts 283 avg in Charleston, 272 in Duendin, zero Doubles.

"11. Travis Hafner, 1b, Oklahoma RedHawks (Rangers)
Unlike the players ahead of him on this list, Hafner didn’t come to the PCL with a blue-chip prospect pedigree. He already has spent five years in the minors and missed much of 2001 with a wrist injury. There were doubts about his true hitting ability "

Hafner hit 346 in high A with 109 rbi, 22 homers, around the same age is Roberts. Is their really a comparison between the two?? Hafner still was not highly regarded then. How is Roberts at 23 a legitimate prospect? He is worth keeping an eye on, but I have my doubts.

Not sure which thread to throw this on, so I'll try it here as it is prospect related.

Am I correct in thinking that Guillermo Quiroz is in his sixth year in the minors and if so, has he used up all his options? If so, then he can't be sent to Syracuse for any more seasoning next season and I am not at all sure he is major league ready. Hope my initial thinking is a little off and that option, at least for one more season is avaible. If not, could be a bit of a problem for the big club, possibly causing them to carry 3 catchers next year - and if so another reason more flexibility is needed on the roster(eg: trading a less than one dimensional player such as Phelps).

Can anyone clarify with certainty the Quiroz option situation?

Of course there is no comparison between Hafner and Roberts, except their ages when they were at A+.

But Hafner was a prospect in A ball. If he wasn't he wouldn't now be a major league player. My definition of prospect is anyone who has at least a 0.1% chance of making the major leagues. Your quote there states that Hafner wasn't a blue-chip prospect and that's true.

I was objecting to your statement that anyone who is 23 in A+ ball is too old to be a prospect.

Your exact words:

Of course, [Roberts] is too old to be considered a prospect in that league [Florida State League].

Anyone who is playing well in A+ ball in his first full pro season, regardless of age, is a prospect in my book.

You have a strange definition of "prospect" and frankly I don't know what the difference is between a "legitimate prospect" and a "prospect" by your use of the terms.

"My definition of prospect is anyone who has at least a 0.1% chance of making the major leagues. Your quote there states that Hafner wasn't a blue-chip prospect and that's true."

.1 chance? Nice comparison though with Hafner, since their is no comparison, Hafner showed he can hit, and should be advanced Roberts is not still not impressing. You still didnt answer my question, has Roberts ever hit 300? Dudek, arent you the same guy who said Tingler was a prospect? The guy should be released!

Roberts is young for Dunedin too right? Once Roberts puts up numbers in AA thar are better then the numbers he has this year, he might then be considered a prospect, he is just too old for his league to not be dominating (like Hafner did).

Most minor league writer, would tell you when a player is prospect or a non prospect, like John Sickels, Jim Callis etc, you might want to check those guys out, or whats going on other teams, unless your bias?

Just because a guy doesn't hit .300 doesn't mean he's not a prospect. Everyone has different tools. And I'd say a middle infielder with 20 home run potential and is only 23 in high A (with a good K/BB ratio and a solid glove) is a prospect. I would be shocked if Roberts doesn't make it onto Baseball America's Jays' top 30 prospect list for 2005.

Am I correct in thinking that Guillermo Quiroz is in his sixth year in the minors and if so, has he used up all his options?

Quiroz was added to the 40 man roster after the 2002 season (he was younger than 19 when he signed so he was allowed four years in the minors without having to be protected)... So he was optioned down in 2003 and 2004, so he has one more season to be optioned down (2005). Then in 2006 he should be out of options, although occaisionally players are allowed a fourth year of options (but I'm not sure how that is decided).

arent you the same guy who said Tingler was a prospect? The guy should be released!

Tingler certainly was a prospect, though the sand is rapidly running out of that particular hourglass.

That said, Jayce Tingler is fifth in the Florida State League in OBP. A very nice thing for a centerfielder who's also a leadoff hitter. He may never make the majors, but he'll be a quality organizational soldier for a while. Releasing him would not be a good thing.

Most minor league writer, would tell you when a player is prospect or a non prospect, like John Sickels, Jim Callis etc, you might want to check those guys out, or whats going on other teams, unless your bias?

John Sickels rated Tingler a C prospect last offseason. That doesn't sound like a "non prospect" to me. I really don't think there's a clear division between prospect and non-prospect. To me, it's a sliding scale and every young player lands somewhere between those two extremes. Tingler is falling on that scale right now and Roberts is starting to rise. If there's a chance that Ryan Roberts or Jayce Tingler can make the next step and show something at higher levels (and the potential is there) then they are prospects.

Tingler is still a prospect.

Certainly, Robert, by your own definition.

Just to point out that you can't judge every prospect by the same rules...

Edgar Martinez (a Hall of Famer?) did not stick in the majors with a regulart gig until he was 27.

At the same age as Tingler, Martines was in AA (only one level higher) but his numbers weren't THAT much more impressive than Tingler's

Martinez: 451 at bats, 71 runs, 119 hits, 29 doubles, 5 triples, 6 homeruns, 74 RBI, 89 walks, 35 K, .264 average.

Tingler: 377 at bats, 68 runs, 96 hits, 14 doubles, 2 triples, 0 homeruns, 30 RBI, 68 walks, 22 K, .255 average.

Obviously Martinez showed a little more power but his other numbers didn't stand out that much more than Tingler's except a good eye at the plate. Martinez got stronger and so could Tingler, although his ceiling is obviously more as a fourth outfielder... But my point is that it's not really fair to write people off after only a year and a half. Especially when they show such a good eye at the plate, which is one of the hardest things for players to develop at any age. Honestly by looking at Martinez numbers that year you wouldn't have thought he would one day bat .356 or hit 37 homeruns in the majors.

Now your comparing Martinez to Roberts, gimme a break. Tingler is not a prospect, guys who barely hit 260 at his age, in Dunedin, are nothing more then Organition fillers, "Organization soldier" with a glim chance of hope. Robert you opininos are cleary bias.

I didn't say a word about Edgar Martinez.

guys who barely hit 260 at his age, in Dunedin, are nothing more then Organition fillers

I guess there's your answer, Marc: johnnys99 says that Edgar Martinez was nothing more than organizational filler.

Am I correct in thinking that Guillermo Quiroz is in his sixth year in the minors and if so, has he used up all his options?

Peter, this is not correct.

If a player has six years of minor league service and is NOT on the 40-man roster at the conclusion of the season, he becomes a minor league free agent and can sign with any team. Quiroz, I believe, was put on the 40 man roster before the 2003 season.

The next part I'm not absolutely certain about, but I think that a major league team has three years of options counting the year a player is put on the 40-man roster as year 1.

In Quiroz's case, the club would have options on him for 2003, 2004 and 2005. This means that they can move him off and onto the 25-man roster (keeping him on the 40-man throughout) pretty much at will. If they tried to send him down to the minors in 2006, Quiroz would have to clear waivers (i.e. be outrighted). If at any point Quiroz is taken off the 40-man roster, he has to clear waivers (i.e. he can be claimed by another team).

Tingler is not a prospect

I think we need to be careful about the word prospect. Technically almost every player in the Jays minor league system is a prospect. Some are better prospects than others. Also players develop at different rates. Some are late bloomers, other peak early and then crash. We have seen guys exceed all expectations (Albert Pujols) and can't miss guys fail (Chad Hermanson).

Sometimes we don't know everything about a player. Players can be bothered by an injury that still allows them to play but inhibits their performance.

So Tingler is a prospect. Is he less of a prospect than he was this time last year? Yes. Is he top 30 material? Probably not. Will the Jays cut him? No. Will 2005 be his make or break year? Yes.

Gerry,

I beg to differ on one point only. I don't see Tingler as being less of a prospect now than at this time last year. In that year he's gone from Pulaski to Dunedin, a jump of 3 classes. His core skill - strikezone judgement - might be the best of any player in A ball anywhere. His power is lacking, as it was last year in Pulaski.

His batting average is lower, but we know that batting average on balls in play is the very volatile from year to year. Suppose he was merely average in that category - his batting average would be about 25 points higher and his slugging percentage about 30 points higher. Add that to his totals and you've got one of the better offensive players in the pitching-friendly FSL.

On balance, I would say he's made better than expected progress.

Yes, that's true Robert. Despite the disappointing year, Tingler is still producing better than an average outfielder in the FSL (he has an EqA of .263, FSL average is .261).

I was just chuckling over the idea that Tingler should be released. If you want to release Tingler, what do you do with Jason Waugh? Shoot him out of a cannon?

Men, bring me the No Longer A Prospect Catapault.

If you want to release Tingler, what do you do with Jason Waugh? Shoot him out of a cannon?

Craig, THAT IS HILARIOUS

http://aaronreynolds.ca
Can you see the marketing potential? Come see a minor league game, then afterwards anyone who's hitting under .260 is fired out of a cannon!

Tingler still might be in my top 30 (in the high 20s though).

The kinds of information we need to have in order to make a judgment about his progress is not easily available. What's his ground/air ratio? How is his bunting ability? I suppose that I could research the first point using milb.com's archived logs.

Absent this knowledge, I'd say that Tingler is making about expected progress. On the other hand, Davenport, Negron and Yuber Rodriguez are making better than expected progress this year, and so Tingler does appear to be slipping modestly in the outfield prospect hierarchy in the organization.

I agree - Tingler has slipped in the prospect rankings, but that's because there are so many more quality prospects than last year.

A comment to make while you guys are discussing whether someone is a prospect this year or was last year---everyone progresses differently and there are all kinds of reasons for this (injuries, PT, new level). This is Davenport's 3rd year in the FSL. He has been a prospect, then not been a prospect and now, according to this arena, is a prospect again. Things definitely change from year to year with a lot of these players. I'm just using Davenport as a prime example. Just an opinion. I'm an occasional reader of your posts. You seem to take this prospect business seriously.

Alright, all prospects hitting under .260 are cut.

Quiroz, you're cut. Griffin, Hattig, Solano, you're all cut. Waugh, gone. Ashford, cut. Galloway, cut. Snavely, sorry, cut. Fagan, Esposito, you're cut. Umbria, you're cut. So is Bormaster. Cannon, you stay. All of those people are cut. Peralta, Armstrong and Medina are all cut. Godwin, Singleton gone. Cut, Tingler, I don't know what you're doing here because you're all cut. Macaluso, Chiaffrahaha. There's so many cuts here, look, I'll just post them up and you see where your name is. Look how many cuts there are there. Woah boy! You're cut. All of you! You're cut. I cut you!

You're cut too, shusshy!

...:)

The first Simpsons reference of the day....

Nice.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/minors/040719pulse.html
COMN for a different arena talking about davenport.

john manuel's july prospect pulse on projecting power

That is exactly my point. I didn't mean to classify this site as the only one that thinks that Davenport is a prospect. He was an example. The point to get across was that things change. Players progress differently. Just because someone doesn't hit well in his first year at a level, doesn't mean he should be written off. Like Waugh, did he fall off because of playing time. Griffin-injuries. These aren't the only guys.

Davenport was a high school pick though, most of the others are college picks and have less time to turn things around.