John Gibbons's first lineup as official Jays manager. Alex Rios gets the day off.

Johnson 9
Hudson 4
Wells 8
Delgado 3
Hinske 5
Catalanotto DH
Zaun 2
Gross 7
Woodward 9

I have a feeling that we'll hear this comment soon...

"John Gibbons must have a problem with Alex Rios!"

Pitching, by the way, is Towers versus Loaiza. This is another important game for Josh Towers, who's still pitching for 29 other teams as well as Toronto.

Yankee lineup :

Lofton 9
Jeter 6
Sheffield DH
Rodriguez 5
Matsui 7
Posada 2
Williams 8
Olerud 3
Wilson 4

I think Johnson can handle right field by himself, Mr. Gibbons. ;)

Mike, also we're going to hear "Gabe Gross is only hitting .167! Another failure of the front office."

Um... make that Woodward 6. Thanks Rob. :)

Surprising to see the struggling Dog in the #2 slot; against a RH, that's not much OBP at the top of the lineup. But it's very good to see Cat DHing and batting sixth (I'd prefer to see him second most days) and Zaun down to 7th, where he belongs. More Kevin Cash, please.

Gross is actually hitting less than .167.

What is he, 1 for 6? That 1 was a Jeter-error-made-hit-by-hometown-scorer. So he's actually 0-fer.

Gabe Gross is hitting .000! Another failure of the front office.

Well, we'll see if Woody and Cash get more playing time, but its off to a somewhat positive start. Although one could argue that Cash should be starting today anyway, due to the afternoon start.

I have a feeling Hudson will pick it up for Dog Day. He was shown up last year by Cat.

OK, we need to slaughter Loaiza today. It'll make me feel much better.

Alright, start it off O-Dog. I would love a nice Loiza beat down today.

Come on, everyone chant...
"Loaiza...SUCKS! Loaiza...SUCKS! Loaiza...SUCKS!"

Those in cubicles or offices where there are others around are encouraged to yell as loud as possible, and be as annoying as possible.

Watching the mlb.tv YES coverage they did a scouting report for Loiaza and they had the last point of "Very Cool Name". Man they must of run out of things they could of used REALLY early if they had to put that as the third point!!

Man they must of run out of things they could of used REALLY early if they had to put that as the third point!!

"See, son, a woman is a lot like a refrigerator. They're about six feet tall, three hundred pounds... they... make ice..."

I dont get it. My decorative opening day fridge magnet tells me this game should be on sportsnet today. Why would Roy lie to me?

sadly the third point for Towers was "he wears #7"

LOL Jobu - that actually made me laugh out loud

I don't even think Loaiza's name is that cool. Whenever I hear anyone say it I get an echo of Jon Lovitz's 'Hanukkah Harry' character's accent in my head.

Heh, do you guys hear the crowd on Loiaza? "COME ON, FINISH HIM!"

Watching the mlb.tv YES coverage they did a scouting report for Loiaza and they had the last point of "Very Cool Name".

Esteban is the Spanish equivalent of Steve, which, Steve McQueen and Steve Austin aside, really isn't that cool. Or is it, and I've been Miles Davis all these years without knowing it?

A lead against the yankees

More like that!

Let's all pretend this is opening day of a new season, shall we?

It's the new season

If the runs keep coming against the Merc's like this, I'm willing to forgive Roy's lies.

Game over. The Yankees'll never score two runs off Towers.

Que? NFH, can you explain for those of us on the Gameday delay?

Heh, Jerry asks J.P. on the radio what he thinks of the official scoring on the second run, and J.P. answers, "We scored the run, I don't care."

Hitting with RISP

We had two two-out hits that scored runners in the same inning, Spicol.

Loaiza is pronounced "Loo-zer"

Jerry had Gibbons on for the pre-game... MAN is he difficult to understand.

Gibbons was big on Hudson; he's hoping the move to the 2-spot will wake his bat. He also called O-Dog a (future) all-star and that you know he'll give everything he's got every game.

He also mentioned that we'll be seeing alot more of Woody... "we need to see what Woody can do"... mentioned that Gomez was really brought on as a utility guy and that he had a chance to talk to him before the game.

Just judging by the new coach's tone, it seems like he's going to be big on rewarding effort. Nothing wrong with that... to a point...

Hmmm towers with a no hitter so far........

That was an interesting stat: last two years, Hinske had over 40 total errors. This year, only four so far.

He sure looks better out there at third.

J.P. says that Lopez was asked not to play winter ball and did it anyways.

Hmmm towers with a no hitter so far........

You just jinxed it.

Was anyone else annoyed at Rod Black's "Canada has a chance at the bronze medal" comment yesterday?

Nice work to get us out of that inning, too. Phew!

Is anyone else thrilled that the Jays are giving long rides to the wall to all these pitches?

No Francis!!!!!

Aaaaah!!!! Damn you, O'Dowd.

They are looking much better - yesterday they looked like a wet towel

Delgado is hittign .310/.429/.655 in August.

Can't give up on team Canada, we still have a good chance.

I'm busy thinking up punishments for Jerkass O'Dowd. However, if Francis gets his ML debut out of this, I can't be too annoyed.

Spicol, your "is Steve a cool name?" poser intrigued me, so I took seven minutes out of my lunch hour, visited the shrine that is BaseballReference.com and started the All-Steve Team thread.

If everyone chips in, we might even find a shortstop ...

two Greek-American olympic baseball players tested positive for steroids

The players are both professionals as well. AJ Brack pitches in the independant Northeast League but Derek Nicholson is a AAA Tiger farmhand. I wonder what the reprecussions will be once he comes back home.

Was anyone else annoyed at Rod Black's "Canada has a chance at the bronze medal" comment yesterday?

Was it worse than his embarrassing lust for Derek Jeter during Saturday's game?

"Yankee fans whoop and hollar over any slight play that might possibly be successful"

One of the truest things NFH ever said.

Nice. Towers gets Sheffield swinging, he's having a solid game so far.

Is it me or does anyone else find it annoying when Sheffield waves that bat around when he is at the plate, or the way Jeter holds his hand out giving the umpire a "talk to the hand" look?

for the jeter thing it is when he steps back into the plate after stepping out.

Josh's third point may have been 'Wears number 7', but his first two were

Throws Strikes
So many strikes.

Which isn't so bad.

Well honestly, if you were Dowd and had Francis pitching the way he was would you send him to the Olympics or use him for your own team? Heck, let's even use the Jays as an example. Would you rather have Francis pitching in the SkyDome or for the Canadian Olympic team? If there's one thing I'm glad of it is that Francis did not last to the Jays in 2002. I have a feeling they wouldn't have picked Francis.

Gibbons was big on Hudson; he's hoping the move to the 2-spot will wake his bat. He also called O-Dog a (future) all-star and that you know he'll give everything he's got every game.

He also mentioned that we'll be seeing alot more of Woody... "we need to see what Woody can do"... mentioned that Gomez was really brought on as a utility guy and that he had a chance to talk to him before the game.

This seems to suggest something I suspected may have been true and that it was Tosca who was benching Woody and Hudson on random days and running Dave Berg and Chris Gomez out in the field a lot more than needed.

I honestly find it a bit of a relief that Woodward will be able to play these last two months and not rot and then be lost for nothing. There's still a chance the Jays can get considerable value from him, either as a player or a tradeable commodity.

Was it worse than his embarrassing lust for Derek Jeter during Saturday's game?

It was better on Sunday -- five minutes of "Derek Jeter is sooooo cluuuuuuutch" followed by Jeter hitting into a double play, followed by "Derek Jeter gets a base hit sooooooo often in that situation".

Jobu, I got that from Tyler, I think: "When we get a hit, let's jump up and down like Yankee fans!"

Is it me or does anyone else find it annoying when Sheffield waves that bat around when he is at the plate, or the way Jeter holds his hand out giving the umpire a "talk to the hand" look?

All my Delgado baseball cards have him holding up his Charlie McCarthy to the ump as well. But we love Carlos.

Is it me or does anyone else find it annoying when Sheffield waves that bat around when he is at the plate, or the way Jeter holds his hand out giving the umpire a "talk to the hand" look?

You're not alone in either of those things.

At one point on Sunday I shouted at the TV "NO ONE FROM YES IS WATCHING, AND THEY ARE NOT HIRING AT THIS TIME!"

We shut off Rod and Pat and put on the radio, TV delay be damned.

Woody 2 for 2 :)

for the jeter thing it is when he steps back into the plate after stepping out.

That's Jeter pretending not to be ready. Of course, by rule the hitter must be ready when she steps into the batter's box.

One of these days, an umpire should call time when Jeter does it, since that's ostensibly what he's asking for. Keep calling time when he does it, until he steps into the box not doing it.

Man, that hit by Woody sounded gorgeous.

Should I make a NESN: GIVE BACK HAZEL MAE banner for when the Red Stockings come visiting?

the hitter must be ready when she steps into the batter's box.

There's a shot at Jeter out of nowhere.

All my Delgado baseball cards have him holding up his Charlie McCarthy to the ump as well.

Yeah, there are a bunch of guys who do this. But yeah, I love Delgado. :)

There's a shot at Jeter out of nowhere.

Yeah but we're allowed to take random shots, she plays for the Yankees.

Matthew, I'm merely using gender-neutral language. Unless otherwise specified, both gender-specific pronouns should be assumed to encompass both genders. In other words "she" includes "he". It certainly includes Derek Jeter.

Of course, by rule the hitter must be ready when she steps into the batter's box.

So subtle. Love it.

Derek Jeter, she's so clutch.

My father-in-law is a huge Yankee fan, and I'm constantly getting into it with him about Jeter. He swears Jeter is a great outstanding defensive shortstop, and a 'clutch' player who does all sort of 'little' things to win.

When I try to tell him Jeter's vastly over-rated, and why I think so, he gets this glazed over look like he thinks I'm speaking in tongues. I suspect a lot of Yankee fans are like this.

Anyone else feel that the umpires are intimidated by the Yankees? They get so many borderline calls that no one else gets.
I also think that the hit by pitch rule should be amended. Unless the ball actually changes direction after it crosses the plate then it shouldn't be ruled a hbp. This bullshit with "just nicked the jersey" makes me angry. I wonder what Bob Gibson would think?

The think I love best about baseball is both men and women play the game.

Towers through 4 innings:

2 hits, 1 BB, 1 SO, 0 ER
47 pitches, 29 strikes, 18 balls.

Charlie Steiner acknowledges Enrique made a bad play.

Anyone else feel that the umpires are intimidated by the Yankees? They get so many borderline calls that no one else gets.

I have to say, I've never seen this or felt this to be true.

What would the Jays have done without Towers over the past year?

What would the Jays have done without Towers over the past year?

"Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to the Mike Smith Express. Please remember to buckle your lap and shoulder belts tightly and ensure that the chin strap on your helmets is locked. It's going to be a bumpy ride."

To answer R Billie's question, I would not have called up Francis if I was the Rockies, or the Jays. If a player has such a rare opportunity to play in the Olympics and bring home a medal, and its something he really wants to do (I recall Francis making comments as such), than I see no reason to stop him in these situations. As long as you have assurances from Whitt and Team Canada that Francis will not be used irresponsbily than I don't see it as a problem. To have Francis pitch in 3 meaningless MLB games versus allowing him the chance to win an Olympic medal and I don't really see a debate here. Maybe I'm alone in this thinking, but Francis is still going to get time to get his feet wet in the majors in September, and even his adjustment isn't urgent, because the Rockies aren't going anywhere in 2005.

I'd let him pitch in the Olympics, and even if he was on the Jays I'd rather him pitch in the Olympics. I can do without Francis a few more weeks if it means a greater shot at Canadian glory and a great opportunity for him personally. Here are some pressure-packed situations for him to pitch in, so there is an opportunity to see how he responds there.

Jerkass O'Dowd is right.

It's unfortunate that you're all claiming the guise of gender-neutral language, which actually plays an important role in professional communicationsm, to take swipes at a ballplayer.

Just remember the story of Casey Candaele, son of the player the Geena Davis character in A League of Their Own was based on, who when other kids would say "You swing like a girl," would reply "Thanks! My mom taught me."

Was anyone else annoyed at Rod Black's "Canada has a chance at the bronze medal" comment yesterday?

I was annoyed at every Rod Black comment made on the weekend. Rod Black is simply brutal. It just doesnt get much worse, Black and Tabler almost make the broadcasts unwatchable.

Long time reader, second time poster. Just had to comment that "Derek Jeter, she's so clutch." had me laughing out loud - thanks NFH. Anyone want to start a collection to get Miller to tattoo that phrase next to his tribute to Billy?

So, Jeter was raised by his mom? Is that what you're saying? ;)

Hey, a sac fly! Go Jays go!

Whoa since when do the Jays knows how to sac fly? I didnt realize they knew that play.

Geez, I've read what you all have said about Charlie Steiner, but wow, he really is pretty tough to listen to if you're not a Yankee fan.

It seems that North American sports franchises put no value in their players getting international experience, nor do they view something like the Olympics as a development opportunity with a chance to win a big prize for one of their own.

It is only when there is a lot of money to be made that the league gets in line, like with NHL hockey or some of the NBA Dream Teams.

also think that the hit by pitch rule should be amended. Unless the ball actually changes direction after it crosses the plate then it shouldn't be ruled a hbp. This bullshit with "just nicked the jersey" makes me angry. I wonder what Bob Gibson would think?

Sorry, can't work italics... I agree in principle but umpires often go by sound in cases like this. Their eyes are fixed on the strike zone so its not often possible to make the distinction between player and jersey.

I actually don't mind Rod Black when he does CFL broadcasts, but with baseball he is simply brutal. Tabler is probably worse though, which is kinda sad.

I don't even give TSN a chance anymore. Once I realize the game is on TSN I just mute it right away.

Oh, and I like Gary Sheffield's bat waggle. I liked it when he was a Brave, and I won't stop liking it now! Derek Jeter can rot in hell.

Uh, Go Jays!

What would the Jays have done without Towers over the past year?

They wouldn't have even had Tanyon Sturtze to call upon. But let's not forget that the Yankees have hit Josh somewhat hard today but they've just found gloves.

One thing that the Jays can say (somewhat ironically) is that they've had a competent starting rotation once Pat Hentgen decided to hang it up. And this despite Roy Halladay being injured and not at his best otherwise.

Batista having back pain isn't a good sign though and they'll have to keep an eye out for adding one more starter this off-season, preferably closer to the front of the rotation than back. And of course the obligatory reshuffle of the pen. Some veteran support that might not blow up for a change and maybe even a "true" closer. I'm still nervous about Frasor and Chulk going Aquilino Lopez next year.

Unfortunately, they'll have two or three offensive holes to fill also so this will be JP's toughest off-season yet with Delgado's impending free agency. But they might have another young bat and/or arm in the majors before then.

Steiner has the air of someone doing the Jays broadcast a big, big favour, "and please let me get back to my own broadcast booth as soon as possible."

I like what Towers is doing. I'd thought perhaps he couldn't get it done against high powered offences, and I was wrong.
I think he's little more than a trading chip at this point, but that's fine, if he can get us a solid hitter I'm all for it.

Whoa since when do the Jays knows how to sac fly? I didnt realize they knew that play.

Apparently, Mr. Gibbons has introduced the Jays to a couple new radical strategies in his short time as manager. And Vernon gets caught stealing immediately afterwards. Let the small ball era begin!

Let's not forget Brian Williams doing Jays TV.

"Carlos Delgado hits a long double. That's his 107th hit of the year, and his 21st double. He has 220 career doubles now, and is 277th on the all time double list."

I never heard a guy call a game strictly from the media guide. He literally had nothing to say about how a game was being played.

I agree with Thomas about the Olympics. That kind of opportunity doesn't come very often, and to let him play in the Olympics might have been beneficial to his development. Francis would have got the opportunity to play in pressure situations that he won't get in Colorado. As well, Francis could potentially get experience with what it takes to win. Baseball gods, remember I said potentially. I wouldn't want to jinx anything. In Colorado, although he'd gain major league experience, he could always do this after the Olympics.

Morneau is a different case because he is on a contender, and playoffs are also a special kind of opportunity, and with Mientkiewicz gone, there is an organizational need that (seeing as they are a contender) should be filled in the best possible way. In this case that was Morneau.

For those who might be wondering about such things. 5 1/3 innings and Loaiza just hit 100 pitches.

GABE GROSS' FIRST REAL HIT IS A HOMER!

Whoo hoo!

Gabe Gross hits a wall-scraper for his first career HR.

GO GROSS!!

Congrats Gabe Gross. A lot faster than Alex ;)

Now that's Gross!

Gross hits his first major league homer; and there's no tv!!
ack!!

touch 'em all gabe!

i love this john gibbons fellow ;)

Welcome to the show Gabe!

499 to go for a Hall of Fame career.

Man, what a great start to the season!

For those who might be wondering about such things. 5 1/3 innings and Loaiza just hit 100 pitches.

Towers is at 55 pitches through 5 innings. He could easily go the distance at this rate. I also didn't have a lot of confidence that he could get it done against a power lineup, but he looks great so far.

Congrats to Gross on his first homer!

Get in your Loiaza heckling while you can!

To have Francis pitch in 3 meaningless MLB games versus allowing him the chance to win an Olympic medal and I don't really see a debate here. Maybe I'm alone in this thinking, but Francis is still going to get time to get his feet wet in the majors in September, and even his adjustment isn't urgent, because the Rockies aren't going anywhere in 2005.

I'm not saying you're wrong but it's just easier to say that when it isn't your team's top prospect's development on the line. The Twins wanted to keep Morneau and the Rockies wanted to keep Francis. Would you want to see Rios and Gross go to the Olympics for the US and Puerto Rico or get Major League development time for the Blue Jays?

As I type that, Gabe Gross has hit a two run homerun off the top of the short right field wall, just 314 feet away. That was a hard line drive homerun that would otherwise have been a double (or even a loud single) in most parks.

Gabe Ruth? Sorry but someone had to say it...

i had an exam this morning and came home to nap. i woke up turned the radio on. it was the start of gabes at bat. what beautiful thing to wake up to (its no woman but...). it really does feel like a new season.

And Gross has raised his avg by something like 70pts in one fell swoop.

This is great. Towers is pitching well, Gross hit his first homer and were beating the Yankees and most importantly Loaiza. It almost makes up for the series this far.

Am I the only one who doesn't care about the Olympics in the least?

Tosca was holding Gabe back. I knew it!

Beating 'Estefluke Loseria' is always a good thing.

Come on, Lofton, who do you think you are?

I am so happy that I started Towers in my fantasy league today.

This is great. Towers is pitching well, Gross hit his first homer and were beating the Yankees and most importantly Loaiza.

It's almost as if the Jays are growing into their man-strength.

Am I the only one who doesn't care about the Olympics in the least?

I usually don't. I may pay attention to the baseball this year.

Oh my, listen to the crowd's reaction to Jeter's single.

maybe if i grew into my man strength i would be waking up to a woman
:(

Moffatt wins for the most organic first-use of Man-Strength.

In Colorado, although he'd gain major league experience, he could always do this after the Olympics.

A short Olympic experience, no matter how pressure packed, is not likely to teach Francis as much as two full months of major league experience. O'Dowd is trying to position his team to be competitive next year and two months of experience is twice as good as one month.

I'm excited about the Olympics, for both our men's baseball team and our women's softball team.

maybe if i grew into my man strength i would be waking up to a woman

Or at least you wouldn't be waking up at 2 in the afternoon. Unless you're in Japan or something and it's really early in the morning.

O'Dowd is trying to position his team to be competitive next year and two months of experience is twice as good as one month.

I honestly dont know but couldnt he play one month at the Olympics and then one in the Majors? Or is that illegal?

I'm also excited about the Olympics, although aside from baseball I'm not sure how well Canada's going to do.

Francis could play in the Olympics for a month and then with Colorado.

GODDAMNIT!! I HATE THAT GARLIC POEM GUY!!! ARGHHH!! IT GIVES ME SHIVERS OF HATRED WHEN I HEAR HIS VOICE!! I wish i was kidding.

PS. VIVA BLUE JAYS

How many looked at today's lineup from Gibbons and sighed in relief: "sanity - at last!"

There's Hudson hitting yet another rocket for the Jays off the right field wall. Does it seem like the Jays are a lot more awake for this game?

Sorry - just got out of a meeting and I'm trying to piece the Francis bit together before I head back in. Did he actually get called up - or did the Rockies just not allow him to go to Greece?

I say this of course because I have waiver priority in my fantasy league and I already missed out on Wright.

Is it just hindsight on my part, or did you feel too that Tosca was just throwing his hands up in the air with all those wacky lineups.

I thought batting O-Dog 2nd and F-Cat 6th was pretty curious; I thought they should probably be swapped.

But what do I know? Orlando is 3-for-4.

The garlic poem makes me yearn for the days of the Epson Cowboy.

LOL SARAH

:)

How do you spend $180 million and still have guys like C.J. Nitkowski, Esteban Loaiza and Enrique Wilson on the team?

About ten minutes too late, but allright Gross. Way to get your first legitimate hit.

Secondly, as I said above, Francis could play in the Olympics than in Colorado for a month.

Rios has been up for two months, I don't see him as being that comparable to Francis. He's also been in Triple-A for the entire season. If the Jays just called up Gross and didn't let him play for the U.S. team, I would think that was a shabby move.

It is easier to say when it's a Canadian athlete and it's not my MLB team, but I still think it was a classless move, especially if Francis had expressed a real desire to go to the Olympics.

Two months in the majors is greater than one month in the majors, but it is that much greater than one month in the majors and one in the Olympics? I'm not sure it is. There is something to be said for pitching decisive games for your country in the Olympics.

[i]Or at least you wouldn't be waking up at 2 in the afternoon. Unless you're in Japan or something and it's really early in the morning.[/i]

i'm a student and i had an exam this morning. just taking a leisurly monday afternoon nap :)

Another pitching change, excellent. Go Jays Go!

GROSS HR. GROWING INTO MAN-STRENGTH.

LOL SARAH

;)

i'm useless.

The first person to use "LOL SARAH", "growing into my man-strength", and "cuttlefish" in the same paragraph without it sounding forced will win 100 million points.

i'm a student and i had an exam this morning. just taking a leisurly monday afternoon nap :)

Ahhh. I think there's a rule that if you have a morning exam, you're not allowed to do anything that involves thought for the rest of the day.

I thought batting O-Dog 2nd and F-Cat 6th was pretty curious

I want my speed near the top of the order. The Cat can't run. If he hits a single in the first inning, he's a liability.

I think there's a rule that if you have a morning exam, you're not allowed to do anything that involves thought for the rest of the day.

Which is really inconvenient for those - and I've known some, although I don't remember ever being one - who've had two (or more) exams on the same day.

Since this game seems to be in hand (jinx?), what do you guys think is the WORST radio commercial (during Jays games) of the past few years?

For me, 'LOL, SARAH' is second only to the old TorontoJobShop.com ad with the two girls talking. The one found a job in East Siberia which apparently was near New Jersey.

O'Dowd is trying to position his team to be competitive next year and two months of experience is twice as good as one month.

In other words, the question is, which is more beneficial, a month of major league baseball on a team with nothing to play for except next year, or a month of baseball that is not at the same level of competition but with much to play for?

In my opinion, I take the olympics as it is a once in a lifetime opportunity, and it will still be high-quality baseball.

So if I put LOL SARAH and Growing into my man-strength into a sentence, do I get a cuttlefish?

Ahhh, but what good is speed if you don't get on base?

Actually, looking at the stats, Hudson's OBP is better than I thought it would be. Nevermind.

I want my speed near the top of the order. The Cat can't run. If he hits a single in the first inning, he's a liability.

Well, I have some time for the Bill James school of thought on this issue, which is that speed is more important lower down in the order, because your eighth hitter is more likely to hit a single and less likely to hit a home run than your fourth hitter. I think it's defensible to do it either way, though.

any other bauxites going to see the cure in toronto tonight?

Which is really inconvenient for those - and I've known some, although I don't remember ever being one - who've had two (or more) exams on the same day.

I've had that a few times.

There's a rule at Western that you can't have 3 exams in a 24 hour period. If you do, then one of them gets rescheduled. Twice as an undergrad I had 3 exams in a 27 hour period. I recall being quite annoyed by that. :)

How many looked at today's lineup from Gibbons and sighed in relief: "sanity - at last!"

Not me. You've got the team's 2 worst hitters vs RHP batting 1 and 9. 7 and 9 or 8 and 9 sounds better to me. And you've got a run of 4 LHB in a 5-hitter span, just begging for a LH reliever.

Now, they're hitting very well today so it's all a moot point and Johnson is in, presumably, only to spell Rios, not re-stake his claim as a fulltime player. Moving forward, I would like to see some more L-R alternating, to be less vulnerable to opposition relievers.

So if I put LOL SARAH and Growing into my man-strength into a sentence, do I get a cuttlefish?

Way, way too clever. :)

You did both your undergrad and grad work at Western?

Get a hold of yourself.

I didn't watch much of Sunday Night Baseball last night. But, as I'm always on Joe Morgan's case, I have to say that he said something brilliant last night.

You know how we're forever seeing brilliant plays on 'D' for the last out of the inning, then seeing that very same player lead off the inning?

Morgan playfully put out there that psychologists might do a study showing that the defenders who are about to lead off the next inning are at a higher mental/adrenaline state the last out of an inning, preparing for their AB. When the ball gets to them they're in a heightened state and make those highlight plays.

My first cuttlefish. I think I'm gonna cry.

You did both your undergrad and grad work at Western?

Yep. I've gone to three other universities in the meantime so I know that Western is the greatest school in the universe.

Ah crap there goes the shutout

I was at York. I knew a guy who, because he was in second-year chemistry, was taking Organic Chemistry and Inorganic Chemistry. These are classes that you only take, basically, if you're in second-year chemistry. So if you're in one class you're almost certainly in the other one too. So does it make any sense to have both exams on the same day? Especially considering that both courses are very memorization-heavy.

So the students complained, and the faculty said, okay, okay, we'll reschedule one of them. Then a couple of weeks later they said there was some kind of a problem and they had to revoke the rescheduling. Sorry about that. My friend said he had to basically choose which of the two he wanted to fail.

this is where Gibbons comes out and starts to micro manage :P

"Can you say, TAR-GET PRAC-TICE."

God I hate commercial radio.

How do you spend $180 million and still have guys like C.J. Nitkowski, Esteban Loaiza and Enrique Wilson on the team?

The Yankees are like every other team, except when they need a player they pay full price. No wholesale at Yankee Stadium. Everything retail.

There's a rule at Western that you can't have 3 exams in a 24 hour period. If you do, then one of them gets rescheduled. Twice as an undergrad I had 3 exams in a 27 hour period. I recall being quite annoyed by that. :)

Waterloo has the same rule. What a stupid rule it is. 3 exams in 27 hours, or 4 exams in 36 hours is a real *****.

On my last term as a undergrad, I had two math exams on Easter Monday.
That sucked.

So if I put LOL SARAH and Growing into my man-strength into a sentence, do I get a cuttlefish?

What if I do all three?

The hybrid science experiment had gone grotesquely wrong, and L. Sarah Jones, the lab assistant, was horrified to suddenly discover that her husband was the human subject. She shrieked at the doctor: "That cuttlefish is growing into my man!" "Strength! Lo, L. Sarah, you must understand the risks we take for science," the dcotor replied soothingly.

Matthew E:

I had a similar situation at SMU years ago. I had a calculus exam Thursday night from 7-10pm, and then a physics exam the next morning at 8am. Everyone enrolled in this physics class had to be taking that math class. It was just brutal.

"Can you say, TAR-GET PRAC-TICE."

God I hate commercial radio.

What I hate is the Rogers media bath we all have to live in to enjoy baseball.

Moffatt, where else?

Not to say there aren't idiots everywhere you go, but people I know from Western make me particularly uninspired about the university.

Morgan playfully put out there that psychologists might do a study showing that the defenders who are about to lead off the next inning are at a higher mental/adrenaline state the last out of an inning, preparing for their AB. When the ball gets to them they're in a heightened state and make those highlight plays.

Or they might do a study where it shows that the 11% of the time that it happens, we notice and remark upon it, making it seem like it happens a lot more than 11% of the time.

Moffatt, where else?

Queen's, U Rochester, U Maastricht (as an exchange student)

That, also, is Gross.

Go Gross!

Another hit from Gross. Let's give him $15 million!

Isn't anyone worried about how Francis is going to react to Coors? I fear the brightest Canadian starting pitching prospect since Fergie may live to rue the day he signed with the Rockies. It might be 6 years before people actually realize he is a good pitcher.

Gross hits another. His avg is now .300, he started the game under .150 ;)

How about an opposite field double to go with the homerun for Gross?

Before that, Bernie Williams touched up Towers with a deep two-run homer to cut the Jays' lead to 5-2.

Why does Western beat Queen's? I'm not looking for an argument. I can't compare the two. I'm just curious for your opinion.

Jobu, sorry but when a different speaker begins to speak you are supposed to start a new paragraph. Nice try, but that's actually two paragraphs and thus quite lame.

Oh yeah, and a 3rd pitching change. Flash Gordon replaces Nitkowski.

Isn't anyone worried about how Francis is going to react to Coors?

Not particularly. Good pitchers have always found a way to cope with Coors. It ruins stats, but it hurts bad pitchers more than good ones.

Yeah, but the stat ruination is really what I'm worried about. As a proud Canadian, I hate the fact that Francis will be largely ignored by the American media for the first 6 years of his career.

Or they might do a study where it shows that the 11% of the time that it happens, we notice and remark upon it, making it seem like it happens a lot more than 11% of the time.

Just as likely.

Is Woodward 100% ?

It would be great if Gross develops legit power- it seems like we didn't see his best in the minors because of injuries. Don't know what to expect from Rios in terms of a ceiling, but at least the potential's there to have 3 30-HR outfielders.

Jobu, sorry but when a different speaker begins to speak you are supposed to start a new paragraph. Nice try, but that's actually two paragraphs and thus quite lame.

huh? What are we talking about here?

I think he mistook you for Jordan

Yeah I get that alot. Guess I have one of those faces.

but people I know from Western make me particularly uninspired about the university.

Yeah, I know the friends I had who are going there in September are...not going there for academic purposes. Do I need new friends or is that indicative of the university?

Blargh, my revenge plot failed. It was sweet, sweet revenge for your Williams/Bowa comment that caused me to give myself a charlie horse.

Odowd earlier in the year told Rockies fans on air, that Francis would not be called up this year, they had learned their lesson with Jamie Wright and Bryan Rekar, so he said in no way would he be called up.....Needless to say out here in Colorado, we would gladly see Trader Dan use his man strength elsewhere.

Strikeout for the Incredible Chulk.

http://me.woot.net
Ahhh. I think there's a rule that if you have a morning exam, you're not allowed to do anything that involves thought for the rest of the day.

How about the joy that is my life:

I got up at 6:45 am this morning to study for an exam. I went to the review session for it, returning at noon. I've been studying for another exam since then. I'll take that exam tomorrow morning, then study for the first exam for the rest of the day. Wednesday, I'll wake up to study and then go to my afternoon exam.

Whats sweeter than a radio call of a Chulk striking out Jeter the She-Devil?

http://me.woot.net
Which is really inconvenient for those - and I've known some, although I don't remember ever being one - who've had two (or more) exams on the same day.

Yeah, I know this joy too. 3 exams in one day: 9am-12pm, 2pm-5pm, 7pm-10pm. I could barely speak by the end of it.

Sheffield following Jeter's example.

Chulk retires the side on 12 pitches. Bring on Frasor for the 9th.

Carleton is the nicest university in Canada, by far. Beautiful campus right by the Rideau canal, I can skate to class. When I was in res, I could go to class in my boxers in the winter because of the heated underground tunnels. Massive, almos exclusively newly renovated facilities, with ridiculous lengths gone to to make sure their Journalism majors enjoy the highest level of education. And, of course, the night life in Ottawa is simply amazing.

I'm proud to me a Chulkamaniac.

Ah, the memories are flooding back - studying and writing final exams. I don't think a person should be allowed to graduate until the have written 3 exams in a 27 hour period at some point during their 3rd or 4th year. Seems to be a fairly common occurrence, and I thought that I had been the only jinxed one.

Yes, Carleton provides the best high-school education in the country, bar none.

the night life in Ottawa is simply amazing.

It is? This is news to me. I spent some time in Ottawa a year or two ago and it seemed to me that they rolled up the freaking sidewalks at 5 p.m.

The Incredible Chulk!

Hey, c'mon, that was a remarkable piece of work -- just stringing those three phrases together consecutively should get me a lifetime supply of cuttlefish. Tough freakin' crowd, man....

Tassle, I have to respectfully disagree. Carleton isn't even the nicest university in Ottawa.

The nightlife is amazing in Ottawa, however if you go to Carleton you have to choose whether you want to live close to the university, or close to the nightlife, as you can't do both. And the buildings are not that nice either. (I haven't gone to either of these schools, so I'm not biased)

Now, if we're talking about schools based on quality of education or some nonsense like that you might have a point.
:)

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Waterloo has the same rule [conflict if 3 in 24 hours]

No it doesn't. :( See above.

In fact, on the "exam conflict" form it explicitly says "3 exams in 24 hours is not considered a conflict."

Yes, Carleton provides the best high-school education in the country, bar none.

I don't know. There are some decent high schools out there.

Yes, Carleton provides the best high-school education in the country, bar none.

Hey, that's just silliness. Maybe the BA philosophy kids, but a lot of the programs are of a very high calibre, especially the Journalism. I hate it when people judge like that, without ever having experienced it.

Carleton is the nicest university in Canada

Carleton, where the K stands for quality.

Ok, sounds better saying it than reading it :)

Like I can say anything though, I went to Laurier.

The Administration at the University of Waterloo is not interested in your hardships or convienence. 3 exams in one day is just forcing our students to rise to the challenge. That's also why we have the highest workload of any Universty in Ontario.

Anyone surprised to see Towers not get a shot at the complete game? He had only thrown 76 pitches through 7. The move looks great in view of Chulk's 12 pitch inning, but doesn't Towers deserve a chance to finish what he started, especially in view of the pen's recent string of failures?

Carelton: where the 'K' stands for 'Quality'.

Its funnier when spoken.

doesn't Towers deserve a chance to finish what he started, especially in view of the pen's recent string of failures?

From what I've heard, Towers runs out of gas a lot of the time and pulls himself out of the game.

Oh oh

Uh oh

Carleton isn't even the nicest university in Ottawa.

You're right. Ottawa U definitely definitely has the nicest ugly, concrete mausoleums that smell funny.

You ever notice how we tend to talk about things other than the game when the Jays are winning? Kind of odd.

That's also why we have the highest workload of any Universty in Ontario.

No doubt. I don't get the Waterloo mindset. Work your butt off for four years so you can get a job working for Western grads who make twice what you do and spent their four years in school working half as hard as you.

Thanks for the info Joe (although I think you included the wrong url).

It's only been a year, but I thought I might have been remembering something wrong. I now remember having a prof that told us that he considered 3 exams in 24 hours a conflict, even if the university did not. (Redekop for Corporate Finance).

Is there any University in the country where the administration thinks well of its students? Seems like everyone I know complains about the administration at their school. Most of them seem to spend more time worrying about the students they don't have yet, as opposed to the ones they do have.

Oh no.

I don't like this.

From what I'm seeing, Frasor runs into trouble holding down a multi-run lead... Ugh. So much for a margin for error. What do you do when your closer goes single, homer, walk? Looks like the Jays weren't about to let Gibbons off easy tonight - let's see what he's made of.

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Ah, when I said 'See above' I meant my previous comment. I never do the COMN thing, for whatever reason.

As for why I go to Waterloo and experience hardship, I ask myself the same question every day.

doesn't Towers deserve a chance to finish what he started

I don't get this. For what reason should starting pitchers need to finish what they start?

especially in view of the pen's recent string of failures

This is valid. Keeping the pitcher in to save the bullpen from work would also be valid. But if the sole reason for letting a pitcher continue to pitch is just to "get" a complete game and it has nothing to do with giving the team the best shot to win, it's the wrong choice.

"Can you say, TAR-GET PRAC-TICE."

I love that thing!

RE: UNIVERISTIES - St. FX best :-)

Is there any University in the country where the administration thinks well of its students?

Well, it sure isn't York. I decided pretty early on that the only way to make sense of life at York was to make the basic assumption that the York administration hated its students with the fire of a thousand burning nuns.

Time to double play Olerud...

I've heard many rumours about universities in Ontario, and since I gotta pick one soon, I'll ask for input here.

What I've heard from students, teachers, etc:

1) Carleton is basically Last Chance U. The perfect definition of a safety school.
2) Western is a party school.
3) Queen's is for snobs.
4) Waterloo is the opposite of Western. No fun whatsoever.
5) Any engineering student is automatically a social misfit.

Not my opinion, just what I've heard. Any truth?

**
Back to the game...
Frasor's giving me Koch disease. :(
Was that K on Olerud close?

Sierra's up. Crap, I hope lightning doesn't strike twice.

Kardiac Koch?

oh boy ruben sierra

Frasor obviously has personal problems with the new manager. :)

Oh no...walking Bubba Crosby with nobody out?

Have I mentioned I believe in not switching out relievers who have breezed through the prior inning? I understand the necessity of "defining roles" but that doesn't make situations like this easier to swallow.

Jason gets Bernie Williams to line out hard to right-centre and now faces Olerud. Fouls a slider and it's 0-2. Gets him looking on a delayed strike three call from the ump.

One more out to go and it will be Sierra hitting for Wilson. Sierra has burned the Blue Jays before in walk-off fashion.

fire of a thousand burning nuns

Did anyone else find this typo as hilarious as i did?

"Bubba S. Crosby"?

There are two of them?

the fire of a thousand burning nuns

They make habits out of polyester now. Nuns don't burn, they melt.

With Olerud relatively easy to double up, maybe the strikeout pitch wasn't the best idea there?

Why isn't this game on TV?

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Waterloo is not a party school, but that's from my outlook as a math student. It is fun, though. Best school in the country for computer science and math, and among the best for the rest.

Unless you're a party animal, you won't notice a difference between one school and the next in terms of fun. You'll find friends who enjoy the same things you do and do the fun things you enjoy with them. For this reason, I really very strongly and highly recommend you go into residence in first year. It was a fabulous experience for me to live at St. Jerome's, a small church college and residence here at Waterloo.

Oh, and engineers aren't known for their ability to have fun. While I had 16 hours of class in my first term of first year, my engineer room mate had 35+.

Yes!

*exhale*

3) Queen's is for snobs.

Quite frankly, I think the lot of you are snobs, for looking down your noses at students of "lesser universities".

Wow Frasor is really trying to keep Crosby honest at 1st. I think he tried to pick him off about 15 times.

Had 'em all the way.

Rob and braden provide quicker updates than Gamecast. I take it by your responses that we won. :)

Congrats to Gibbons for his first victory as the skipper!

On the game, that is. Not the workload for engineers. Not looking forward to that.

But the BLUE JAYS BEAT LOAIZA!

watching on yahoo game day, it appeared stuck on strike 2 looking forever, thankful for the bauxites who let me breathe after holding by breath by, three runs, I dont need 3 stinking runs Frasor.

Jobu: it wasn't a typo; just an expression I borrowed from the forums of another website.

Quite frankly, I think the lot of you are snobs, for looking down your noses at students of "lesser universities".

You think that's bad? Don't make the mistake of lumping universities in with colleges like I once did. :)

(A proud Fanshawe Community College grad)

http://me.woot.net
Oh, and if you can get into co-op, do it. Best decision I ever made.

Tassle: Notice how I said "Not my opinion" in my post? That's why.

Release the thousand burning nuns to celebrate the Jays victory!!

So if this makes Gibby 4-0 as a manager, is it safe to assume the Jays will never lose as long as he's manager?

4-0 for Gibbons, pushes him past Mel Queen!!

Joe: Why?

Joe, I think those are some great comments.

I think people get too worked up over the difference between schools. Pick a program you like, you'll have fun.

Waterloo is a great school for the learning with ugly buildings and lots of geeks where you'll have lots of fun.

My brother goes to Guelph, and it seems extremely fun.

Whenever the discussion of universities comes up, I'm reminded of a rhyme.

If you can walk and talk you can go to Brock
If you can use a fork you can go to York
If you're an arrogant, conceited ******* you can to go Western.

:)

Now, please don't ban me.

Yeah, that was out of line. I just get mad at the world sometimes. Sorry.

Joe, speaking as a engineering grad, what seperates us from the rest of the pack is our abilty to have fun and manage a double load of classes.

At least that's the way it used to be. Seems like more and more people go to university now for the education :)

If you're an arrogant, conceited ******* you can to go Western.

Pretty much. We're the Yankees of Canadian Universities. Deal with it.

Well that wasn't easy and Hudson decided to make it interesting too but Frasor pulled it out. He's been living on the edge of his seat lately and I think the high walks and relatively low strikeout totals will get to him sooner or later.

That's why I think the Jays would be wise to pool the salaries of Adams and Speier towards a 'true' closer to take the pressure off these young pitchers. I don't expect Frasor to perform as well next season. For $3 to $3.5 million you would hope the Jays could get an experienced guy in the range of Armando Benetiz.

Rhodes would be an interesting trade target but you have to be concerned about his health combined with age. The A's locked him up for another two years; I think he would have been a great gamble if he was only signed one more season.

I'm with Joe on the co-op.
Do whatever you can to get in. It is a huge huge huge pain in the ***, but it's worth it.

The number one benefit is that you can graduate with alot less debt. Particularly if you're from a large urban centre. In that case you might be able to get a job and live at home, and save tons of money.

Beyond that, you'll learn what it's like to work in your field, and you'll probably figure out what you don't want to do.
If you're lucky, you may figure out what you want to do.

So if this makes Gibby 4-0 as a manager, is it safe to assume the Jays will never lose as long as he's manager?

The sample size is indeed getting larger.

A Dotelian save.

Oh crap I meant Gibby first "real" victory as the skipper as opposed to the fill in W's.

Off topic but Joe, have you heard any news concerning the development of the new nanotech engineering program at Waterloo?

Off topic but Joe, have you heard any news concerning the development of the new nanotech engineering program at Waterloo?

I presume this would be a small program?

Lol, nice one (pun intended, I assumed)

Paul is absolutely correct. Co-op is a pain in the butt, but it's worth it in the long run. I know I would've rather had my summers off instead of working, but it's nice to be able to pay down the debt some and have a little extra spending money.

That was a good one.

Hey, I went to a post secondary program that had one whole written exam. One! And I got one question wrong on it because I misread it. ;)

is it safe to assume the Jays will never lose as long as he's manager?

Yes. Yes it is.

Rob, wherever you decide to go you will meet some fantastic people, have a great time and get a pretty decent education. The stereotypes are fun but once you get to a school you'll realize how little they reflect your actual classmates.

Joe, my admittedly somewhat pretenious but very intelligent friend would take issue with you claiming that Waterloo is among the best for humanties. He's getting out as soon as possible because they are so poor. The math and computer science programs are great, and my friends in co-op also say their experience has been very good so far, and they've landed some really good jobs for their working terms.

Ron, #5 is definately not true at Queen's, and probably not at too many place. Yes, there are a lot of snobs at Queen's and that is one of its major drawbacks as a school. You get a lot of WASPy pampered children from upper-middle class families who seem to think the world will be handed to them on a silver platter.

The people who I know who have gone to Western would also back up that stereotype. Moffatt might have another opinion, though.

When it comes to universities I've found stereotypes to be true in most cases.

I am torn watching the Jays these days. I can't help cherring for them (I was pulling for Frasor just now) but a big part of me would like to see the Jays pick 5th next June. Am I alone doing this?

What do Bauxites think of this proposed nickname for Jason Frasor - "Houdini". Craig also came up with a good one - "toy bulldog". Any other suggestions?

Oh, and engineers aren't known for their ability to have fun. While I had 16 hours of class in my first term of first year, my engineer room mate had 35+.

That's not necessarily true. Engineers have the ability to have fun; they do not have the time to have fun. Thus why engineers tend to be seen in drunken stupors when they are not doing work.

Jason

I know I would've rather had my summers off instead of working

That activated the Rob Alarm.

but it's nice to be able to pay down the debt some and have a little extra spending money.

Rob Alarm off. More money takes precedent over more free time. ;)

Pretty much. We're the Yankees of Canadian Universities. Deal with it.


Oh, don't worry, I deal with it the same way I deal with the Yankees: by badmouthing them at every opportunity.

And school in the summer was amazing! I know it's hard to believe, but summer terms are great.

es, there are a lot of snobs at Queen's and that is one of its major drawbacks as a school. You get a lot of WASPy pampered children from upper-middle class families who seem to think the world will be handed to them on a silver platter.

You could easily replace 'Queens' with 'Laurier' in this paragraph.

The people who I know who have gone to Western would also back up that stereotype. Moffatt might have another opinion, though.

No, it's actually pretty accurate.

The great thing about Western, though, is that since it's such a big school, you can always find dozens of people who share your interests, no matter how obscure they may be. Plus for a so-called "party school" it's got some absolutely great academic departments, including arguably the best economics department in Canada.

Keep in mind that quite a few of the real party animals who come here as first year leave as "Christmas grads".

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Co-op sucks if you don't have a job. But if you do, and you get a good one (as I have, six times), it's an amazing experience.

First and foremost, you come out of school with little or no debt. I owe nothing because my parents covered my first year.

As well, you get ridiculously good experience. I found that I'd often do things in my work term that we'd cover in greater depth the next term in one of my courses. For example, I worked (and will work again, starting in September) for Side Effects Software, producer of 3D animation and modelling software. Graphics software, in short. I then came back to school and took the computer graphics course (the exam I've got tomorrow, as a matter of fact). I had a huge advantage over the people coming in to the course cold, since many of the people who work at Side Effects Software are Waterloo grads; it seems to me as if the Graphics course was distilled and turned into a product, having already worked on Houdini.

Finally, it's really, really, really, really, really nice to get time off school every 4 months. As I've hinted, I really dislike the way school makes me feel, mainly because there's constantly something hanging over you. Co-op terms are time off for me; I get to relax, go to work for eight hours a day, enjoy my work and—the best part—come home and do whatever the hell I want the rest of the night.

As for engineering grads: I have great respect for their ability to juggle schoolwork, but honestly—why take computer engineering when computer science is available? :)

What do Bauxites think of this proposed nickname for Jason Frasor - "Houdini". Craig also came up with a good one - "toy bulldog". Any other suggestions?

I liked the suggestion of 'Mr. Freeze' from a while ago somewhere on this site.

I think it's probably true that university stereotypes aren't helpful. You can get a good education just about anywhere. (You can also, if you choose, get a bad one.) And the world is full of interesting and worthwhile people, many of whom make themselves known as such in universities. I picked York for two reasons--a) they offered me a scholarship and b) they're in Toronto. Never regretted it.

Moffatt:

Has Western's economics department fully recovered from whatever internal politics were plauging them in the late 90's? I remember Bill Scarth (at McMaster) telling us we may want to shy away from Grad School at Western until those things sort out, and that was in 2001 I recall him saying this.

Keep in mind that all I really know about the department is that Parkin and Bade have a pretty standard 1st year text that's pretty widely used in Canada.

Interesting comments, Joe. Waterloo is already second on Rob's Group of Seven Schools (you may notice that I name a lot of things after myself).
McMaster, my first choice (it's Hamilton, I know, please be kind) is barely ahead of Waterloo. It should be a fun race down to the wire next June.

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Haven't heard anything about nanotech. That's probably an engineering thing, and I'm in CS. I have heard about the giant Quantum Computing donations that Waterloo has gotten, though.

As for humanities vs the rest of Canada's universities: no clue. My friends in humanities seem to enjoy it. You have to understand, too, that there are a lot of bad profs out there, and a wide variety of programs to encounter them in. A couple of bad experiences and I've been turned off entire programs. Incidentally, the Arts faculty is actually the largest on campus here at Waterloo.

And yes, co-op does drain your time. Especially when you're doing a Jan-April co-op term. You will literally end work on a Friday and start classes Monday.

Why no call ins for Wilner?

Well, at least we play the O's next and can "hopefully" gain enough ground to get out of the basement.

Beyond that, you'll learn what it's like to work in your field, and you'll probably figure out what you don't want to do.
If you're lucky, you may figure out what you want to do.

As a Waterloo engineering grad, I concur 100%. And in figuring out what you don't want to do, you only have to suffer for 4 months. 4 months at a time, that is, if you discover multiple things you don't want to do.

Another benefit, if you're in co-op in one of the more employable fields, is travel opportunities. I spent a work term in Vancouver, and another in Germany. Paid vacation!

Summer school terms? They're actually a good thing... you want a long weekend? You take a long weekend! The atmosphere on campus is more relaxed for summer term, and you're finished fairly early in August.

Rob:

What are you planning to take at Mac? I did an Arts & Science undergrad there, before going to Queen's for a Master's in Economics.

So what is the actual difference between a normal year:

1) Sept-Dec 2) Jan-Apr

And a co-op year?

With his 15th save, Frasor moves one ahead of Aquilino Lopez's total last year.

Which means he'll avoid the curse!

Has Western's economics department fully recovered from whatever internal politics were plauging them in the late 90's?

From what I hear things are getting better, though I'm not there anymore, so it's hard for me to tell. They're starting to get younger, though, plucking two of U Rochester's best profs last year, which is a good start.

Like most social science departments in Canada, they're in transition, as all the guys they hired during the late 60's hiring boom are all starting to retire.

David:

No clue. I've got the marks in math moreso than in science, if that means anything. Engineering probably, but that's such a wide area at Mac, I can't narrow it down yet.

Just out of curiousity, would anyone care to offer up their alma matter and discipline.

I'll start - U of Saskatchewan, Electrical Engineering and U of Regina, Business Administration (Finance).

I think people get too worked up over the difference between schools. Pick a program you like, you'll have fun.

Best advice ever. My snarky comment earlier notwithstanding, there is a good education available at every university in Canada. But in every case, it is up to the student to seek it out and take advantage of it. Students, wherever they are, educate themselves... Harvard, Yale and Oxford graduate thousands of students every year not as well-educated as the best students at Carleton or Trent or St. Francis Xavier or Lakehead; the difference between hard study and thought on the one hand, and going through the motions on the other, is massive.

Rob, when you start you'll either be in 4 stream or 8 stream.
If you're in 4 stream, you'll go to school for 4 months, then work for 4 months. This will alternate like that until after you've completed your sixth work term. Then you'll go to school for 8 months straight.

If you're in 8 stream, you'll go to school for 8 months, then work for 4, and continue to alternate 4 months of working and school until you graduate.

Uh oh. McCown is mad. He's saying J.P. has a big ego. Why do I listen to this guy again?

Why no call ins for Wilner?

Well, you can't cut into McCown's show!

McCown is, as I type this, explaining how Ricciardi's problem is how his personality has antagonized the print media.

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Summer terms I've found result in lower marks for me. At least, the one summer term I've finished did. This, my last summer term, will probably be slightly lower than my average, but it's hard to tell. I think it's my mind playing tricks on me: "Hey, it's warm out! What the hell are you doing studying statistics?"

The year is divided into three terms: Jan-April, May-August, Sept-Dec. As a first-year co-op student, you will start in September and either end school in December (Stream 4) or end school in April (stream 8). You'll then alternate school-work-school-work until you're done 4 years later. (If you start in stream 4, you have to do school-school to end, so no matter what you always get two straight terms of school.) It takes an extra calendar year to finish school, but it's worth it.

In my case, I was stream 8, and I discovered "Hey, I hate 8 months straight. Good thing I never have to do it again." If you're unsure, do it in first year, when it's a bunch easier.

I've turned this game thread into a "help Rob pick the right program" thread.

People, please feel free to shut me up.

Uh oh. McCown is mad. He's saying J.P. has a big ego.

Man.. when McCown tells you that you have a big ego, it must be HUGE.

I've been to four schools : Dalhousie (started a Bachelor's in Math/CS), McGill (BA in Philosophy, later started a combined LLB/BCL program), McMaster (MA/PhD program, Philosophy) and the University of Toronto's law school (J.D.). They were all good, though frankly I think for the serious student Dalhousie was the best and McGill easily the best for atmosphere.

No Wilner call in's so McCoward can have his air time? Thats like interupting a delicious lasagna dinner for twinkies and warm mountain dew.

Summer terms I've found result in lower marks for me. At least, the one summer term I've finished did.

Bombshelter patio anyone?

Anyone else listening to the Bobcat? I'm not sure who he's supporting here.

So what is the actual difference between a normal year:

1) Sept-Dec 2) Jan-Apr

And a co-op year?

Co-op's in four year programs normally have 8 school terms and 6 work terms, so you need 4 2/3 years to finish your degree (instead of the normal 3 2/3 at a regular school). Because you change what you are doing every 4 months, some of your winter terms are spent working, while some of your summer terms are spent at school.

At least McCown seems to have the story mostly straight - he's not criticizing Ricciardi so much as he's pointing out Griffin's and Elliott's animosity.

McCown is, as I type this, explaining how Ricciardi's problem is how his personality has antagonized the print media.

Yes. The print media are Important People, and if you don't please them, you'll have problems.

http://me.woot.net
Rob, as a Math guy I have to say: if you're more into math than science go into Math or CS. Engineering is just applied mathematics, in most cases, and you just don't get the same background in it because of the breadth of topics it's necessary to cover. No matter which discipline you're in, you'll be required to do first year chemistry & physics, in addition to a bunch of other joyous tasks.

Wait for the call-ins to McCown. Much worse. Those guys will blast everything Jays related and say "make Domi the captain."

Good for McCown, if that's what he's doing. I should flip on the radio before shooting my mouth off.

Summer school terms? They're actually a good thing... you want a long weekend? You take a long weekend! The atmosphere on campus is more relaxed for summer term, and you're finished fairly early in August.

And dont forget if you dont already have a place, rent is *dirt cheap* in the summer in University/College towns because so many people are looking to sublet.

Wow, for once he's actually talking about the Blue Jays instead of saying "I dont like them, the city doesnt like them, why waste my time on them. Now here's stock reports and college basketball news".

http://me.woot.net
Bombshelter patio anyone?

Hah. Not likely. I've been to the Bomber maybe twice, and never in my life to Fed Hall. Phil's, on the other hand....it's hard to resist $1.75 beer.

Most days I'd just rather stay home, watch movies, play video games and drink with my friends, though.

I'm a pro at taking summer terms and yes it's much harder to do well. Who wants to be stuck indoors reading, studying, research, writing essays when you could be outside. I just finished my summer term last Friday and I'm glad it's over. Of course it starts back up in September. Yeah for year round school!

if you're more into math than science go into Math or CS.

Well, let's see. This year (Grade 11) I finished with 87 and 93 in Grade 12 Calculus and Grade 12 CS, respectively.
I did considerably worse in my Grade 11 chem/physics courses.

Yeah, I'm more of a math guy. :)

Wait for the call-ins to McCown. Much worse. Those guys will blast everything Jays related and say "make Domi the captain."

Not always. I like some of the callers. Allan from North York seems generally to have a clue, and my favourite is Raptorized John--any 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' fan is okay by me.

Bombshelter patio anyone?

Don't get me started... it was closed for my last term there...

As for Math at Waterloo, when I started there, I really loved Math.
Not so much when I finished.

Oh yeah,
Waterloo BMath - Math and Business, and I start at Laurier in September for a Masters of Econ.

Moffatt, if you're still around I want to make sure you realize I was kidding with my comments about Western. I have no doubt that you get a great education there.

Phil's, on the other hand....it's hard to resist $1.75 beer.

Damn, it's been too long since I've been to Waterloo. What was the bar beside the Royal Bank (across from WLI)? They used to take Canadian Tire money at par.

Morty's?

Not always. I like some of the callers.

Of course. Raptorized John is great. The rest, not so much.

Moffatt:

Right, I forget that you are a business Ph.D, not Econ. And you are right, most social science departments in Canada are struggling with the aging cohort of tenured professors and how to replace them. That actually consitutues a good portion of the research I'm doing at the Uuniversity of New Brunswick - the main point is that the demographic shift Canada is experiencing will create a shortfall of skilled human capital within 10 years, and we face some very difficult choices in terms of our fiscal structure if we want to be prepared for this. Admittedly, I am happy all the boomers will soon be out of the labour force, since it will result in better opportunities for people my age, but I am not looking forward to the tough decisions our governments face in order to manage the new realities of our "top heavy" demographics.

Rob:

McMaster is a beautiful campus, situated closer in the west end of Hamilton, far from the ugly smokestacks you see when you're on the QEW to Niagara. Waterloo definitely trumps Mac's engineering programs in terms of both prestige and quality, but if it's science you go into, Mac is a great place for that. Admittedly the first year is quite a meat grinder with large classes and a ton of "med school keeners" needing a reality check, but the bachelor of science degree you'd get from Mac would stand up favourably to any Canadian institution (in my humble opinion). Good luck with your decision.

(heading home from work now, bye all).

This guy on the radio's an idiot.

Who gives any creedence to Richard Griffin? I can't believe he's going on that it's the GM's duty to be buddy-buddy with Griffin the baboon.

And all this talk of the Argos being TO's number 1 summer sports draw is ridiculous. The Argos *might* draw 30K once every 3 weeks. The Jays would draw close to or even over 200K in that time.

Damn, it's been too long since I've been to Waterloo. What was the bar beside the Royal Bank (across from WLI)? They used to take Canadian Tire money at par.

I just keep wishing they'd bring back the Fox & Pheasant, I used to love that place.

http://me.woot.net
While I did really well in grade 11 chem & biology, they never really drew me in. There's something really nice about mathematics, and its slightly more applied form, computer science—solving problems, thinking through design—it's just really nice.

Anyhow, my God, I've done no studying since I got into this discussion. E-mail me (my e-mail address is easily available, COMN) and/or I'll check into this discussion later.

I heard a caller yesterday suggest Joe Carter as the new manager.

I'm not even gonna comment on that one.

Moffatt, if you're still around I want to make sure you realize I was kidding with my comments about Western. I have no doubt that you get a great education there.

Heh. Trust me, I've heard them all. I've been here for 5.5 years in 5 different departments so I think I know the place pretty well. :)

Mike, the school changing/department changing Bauxite. :)

Rob, as a Math guy I have to say: if you're more into math than science go into Math or CS. Engineering is just applied mathematics, in most cases, and you just don't get the same background in it because of the breadth of topics it's necessary to cover.

And as an Engineering grad I have to say: What the heck is Joe talking about? Go into what you want to take! You'll get enough math in engineering to make you hurl, and you won't use a lick of it in the work world.

Oh good - a 'bring back Gillick' call. If there's one thing that drives me nuts about Toronto fans, it's their seeming belief that the only people who can possibly do the job are the ones who did it years ago. It's why the Leafs had to bring back Wendel Clark and it's why Whitt and Molitor are such popular managerial candidates now. It's why Pinball Clemons has held every job from stadium sweeper to Emperor for the Argos. There's never a recognition that new blood can be valuable or that there are other talented people in the universe.

Thanks, everyone, for your help with the Find Rob A University Program mission.

**

Sawkiw on RSN last night was awful. Here's a sample of what he said:

"Tosca lost the clubhouse in Toronto. Clubhouse, clubhouse, chemistry, clubhouse, clubhouse. Maybe he could manage in KC where he would pick up the clubhouse. Chemistry! Clubhouse!" *strange smile*

McCown said Gillick and Beeston would be great people for Toronto to hire. He also said they should bring back Roberto Alomar and Pat Borders.

Well, that second part was made up, but you get the idea.

I think it's easier to do well in summer terms than in the regular academic year. I tought a summer class this year (U of T), and the quality of the students was significantly lower than the usual fall/winter crowd. But university rules require a certain spread of marks. This meant that students who I'd normally give, I don't know, B+, had to be given A grades. For administrative reasons that I hate, but am nonetheless beholden to, it's way easier for good students to do very well in summer than in winter.

If there's one thing that drives me nuts about Toronto fans, it's their seeming belief that the only people who can possibly do the job are the ones who did it years ago.

This is where the logic doesn't flow:

It's why the Leafs had to bring back Wendel Clark

What year did Wendy get his name on the Cup with his Leafs mates? ;)

What year did Wendy get his name on the Cup with his Leafs mates?

Oh, I didn't mean that any of these guys necessarily had to do the job successfully before...

Smiley, at Waterloo over 60% of students are in co-op, so there isn't a huge difference in the number of students on campus, so I don't really think students gain an advantage. My best ever term was my last summer term though.

Yesterday someone called up Wilner and said JP was doing a bad job because Gillick spent the same amount of money as JP and he won two World Series.

http://me.woot.net
You'll get enough math in engineering to make you hurl, and you won't use a lick of it in the work world.

Ah, the different perspectives of a Mathie vs an Engineer.

I guess I should tell my co-workers that the linear algebra and calculus that our product is based on should be removed, since we don't use math in the work world... :)

If anyone cares:

McCown says they traded Phelps for nobody.
They should not have fired Tosca, they should have let him manage. Tosca couldn't use his creativity.
He calls Moneyball "idiotball." He's read the book, but hates the whole thing. No surprise. (He said earlier that it should have been called "Zito, Mulder, and Hudson.")
He makes the point that Halladay/Wells/Delgado were Ash pickups. He says those are the only 3 Ash guys on the team. I guess he didn't see today's lineup, with Hudson, Gross, Rios, etc.

I'm sure you're right, Paul, that co-op changes the situation entirely. I teach in the humanities, so co-ops aren't a factor. The make-up of summer humanities classes, in my experience, is a handful of keeners, and then the dregs.

Quiet Waterloo grad here, also with a Mathematics degree. It's been funny to read the ongoing discussions. Joe, I suspect we've probably seen each other a few times without knowing it.

Jonny German,

I actually laughed out loud when I read "You'll get enough math in engineering to make you hurl, and you won't use a lick of it in the work world".

It's funny cuz' it's true on both parts - how much math you actually have to take and how you'll never use it in the work world.

Oh, how I struggled with those triple integrals.

I recall that when I graduated I only needed, 3 or 4 credits in either Math or CS to get a Bachelor's in either of those disciplines.

Why the hell am I listening to Bob McCowan? The guy is terrible, but here I am.

More fun with the Bobcat:

• Tosca couldn't hit and run, steal, or do anything to manage the team.
  
• He says the organization knows more about Phelps than he does because they see him every day. He's puzzled by the Phelps trade, but admits he doesn't have all the information.
  
• Ricciardi reminds some caller of Gary Bettman. Huh?
  

I really have nothing better to do here.

Edgar Martinez is retiring, according to ESPN.com

Smiley: My feelings exactly. I don't know why I listen to him either.

Why the hell am I listening to Bob McCowan? The guy is terrible, but here I am.

I had to turn him off when he started going on about Gillick returning.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1855838
COMN for Edgar story. 5:30 news conference, probably happening then.

It's why Pinball Clemons has held every job from stadium sweeper to Emperor for the Argos.

Now, now, now. Pinball is a great sports figure and an even better man. Comparing him to Wendy is not quite fair.

But it's true, they do rely on Pin a lot.

Funny Pinball story:
He was doing a book signing in 1997 and one guy, upon seeing the short black man, left while complaining "I thought it was going to be Roger Clemens."

I guess I should tell my co-workers that the linear algebra and calculus that our product is based on should be removed, since we don't use math in the work world... :)

Note my use of the word "hurl" in my description of the math I took as an engineering student. I'm not a guy that dislikes math - OAC Calculus was the highest mark I got in high school. But in uni it just gets completely theoretical as far as 98% of us are concerned, and there ain't nothin' beautiful about that. If it works for you, more power to you. But our little Rob needs to find his own way.

I'm just glad that 330-odd posts in nobody's said anything bad about Windsor. Obviously not considered a top-tier school, but for people like me who did nothing in high school, it's been a great opportunity to prove the doubters wrong. We have a great law school, teacher's college, and our technical/automotive engineering program is getting great funding now. As far as I'm concerned, a BA is a BA is a BA regardless of where it's from.

By the way, Moffat, you think there's a chance UWO can actually beat the perenially bad Lancers this year in football? Pretty embarrassing losing twice at home to a team that was 2-7 two years ago with miniscule support :)

312/420/518 an absolutely amazing career line. A true hitting machine.

Bob McCowan? The guy is terrible, but here I am.

I had to turn him off when he started going on about Gillick returning.

Different strokes for different folks. I'm not listening to him right now, but in general I find Bob very entertaining. He's rarely right, that's not his job. I can see how you'd get frustrated if you took him seriously.

I tried to talk to Mcowan about the virtues of Moneyball, but the man won't listen.

Tassle, that was you? I was listening and thought it might be a Bauxite.

I wonder if Edgar has a shot at the HoF. You could argue he's the best pure DH of all time (Molitier didn't just DH).

Musings on university (graduated 6 years ago from Queen's):

Don't let this "Queen's is a snob school" thing influence you too much. Yeah, there are some snobs, but there are at every school. I found people to be very welcoming and nice and found it extremely easy to make friends and meet people. I would say there were way more people at high school that were snobs or who looked down on me. People kind of go a bit crazy with school spirit during frosh week but it's all in good fun and it wears off quickly.

I had a great time at Queen's and have highly recommended it to anyone who has asked. The campus is awesome and it's right near downtown. In my third and fourth year I lived right between the two which was a perfect location. Cheap rent ($280 each for five guys) back then, don't know what it is know. I don't honestly know how much the "reputation" matters in the Real World (TM) but it doesn't hurt. There are a lot of new buildings on campus mixed in with some nice old buildings. For me, living in Ottawa, Kingston was the perfect location -- only a $34 (return!) bus ticket & a couple of hours away. I'm sure I would have enjoyed other places but I've never regretted my decision for a second.

I took one summer class at Carleton in statistics (didn't have a good enough mark at Queen's to get into the second-year class so I had to take it elsewhere!) and teaching-wise it was probably better than 90% of my classes at Queen's. Small sample size to be sure but from that and just general experiences from living in Ottawa I think Carleton has an undeserved bad rep.

Let's go back on the air with Bobcat:

• Andrew from Burlington (good ol' Burlingtonian) tries to argue McCown. Does not work. McCown: "The longer JP has been here, the worse this team has got."
  

But our little Rob needs to find his own way.

Hey, hey, HEY! I could kick your ass...at "Mario Kart: Double Dash!!" (Yes, there are two !'s)

Nice try, Tassle. The man cannot be persuaded.

Oh, Tassle is Andrew (I think). That makes sense. Sounded like a Bauxite.

Tassle, you live in Borington as well? Upper crust Millcroft, middle crust Headon Forest, or moldy old Aldershot? ;)

Hey, hey, HEY! I could kick your ass...at "Mario Kart: Double Dash!!"

You're making me feel old, brother... I could show you a thing or two at the original "Mario Brothers" on the Commodore 64!

Middle crust upper middle

God I hate Millcroft. I have a friend named Joseph who lives there. His family is the biggest bunch of snobs. They only shop at that giant plaza with the Zellers and the Ultra Mart with overpriced everything. He thinks that stupid fountain is a symbol of prestiger or something. The worst: When we had the power outage last year, his mom said, I quote: "Well, I imagine they'll work on restoring power to Millcroft first of all."
And it's not even like there's much a of a difference! The houses are practically the same, except they cost $100,000 more than they should.

Prestige. Ugh

http://me.woot.net
But our little Rob needs to find his own way.

I agree, which is why I had to take issue with you saying you won't use a lick of math in the real world. Engineers and computer scientists use math all the time.

Middle crust upper middle

High school age? If you go to M.M., see you there in September!
I hate that school.

I agree, which is why I had to take issue with you saying you won't use a lick of math in the real world.

And guys (Joe and Jonny): please stop fighting over me! I'll go to a school for five years, pay debt for five more, get a job and watch my cousin go to a two year college and make twice as much as I do. There. ;)

No, I'm second year at Carleton. Just killing time during the summer. I will be around M.M. looking for parties come May, though :)

Watch my cousin go to a two year college and make twice as much as I do.

Replace "cousin" with "brother," and I'm already there, dog.

Grade 11 going into 12, right? Do you know TJ Bendo, Dan Ciarbellini or Jordan Hutchings?

http://me.woot.net
Hah! this has stopped being about you a long time ago. This discussion will settle the age-old question of engineering vs. mathematics. Let the opening statements commence!

:)

Looks like the Phillies have finally found their ace. That's right, they've just traded for Cory Lidle.

I will be around M.M. looking for parties come May, though

Avoid the back door entrance near the hill, unless you want to smell like pot for weeks.

My bro graded from Carleton and one of my cousins goes there right now. From what I've heard Ottawa is a hell hole compared to Vancouver or Toronto. It's freakin way too cold in the Winter, no scenary, and nothing to do in general.

But living in Rez was a lot of fun.

TJ Bendo, Dan Ciarbellini or Jordan Hutchings

Let's put it this way. We had a student-teacher softball game. I played second base. Dan played third. TJ played first.
All four of us were in the same chem class. I basically taught Jordan Grade 11 Math.

Add "Do you know" to the beginning of that quote, by the way.

Ron, I seriously disagree with any statement calling Ottawa a hellhole.

I've lived in Waterloo, Mississauga, Hanover (next to Walkerton), Toronto, Whitby and Ottawa.

Ottawa is lightyears ahead of all of those cities in terms of things to do. I lived there from January to April 2000, and while yes it was cold, really cold in fact, it was fantastic.

I love to visit it, and think it's a great great city.

Holy crap man! I was there!! I went to last bash when I got back from Ott, it was a blast! I was the big guy hanging out with them! I hit one ball pretty far but otherwise was pretty awful. I played short for half the game next to Dan at third. I had no idea you knew them. I went to last bash when I got back from Ott, it was a blast.

From what I've heard Ottawa is a hell hole compared to Vancouver or Toronto.

This is true. Ottawa is also a hell hole compared to Montreal, Halifax, and Quebec City. It has Moncton, NB beat hands down, though.

mathematics

That science, or class of sciences, which treats of the exact relations existing between quantities or magnitudes, and of the methods by which, in accordance with these relations, quantities sought are deducible from other quantities known or supposed; the science of spatial and quantitative relations.

en·gi·neer·ing

The application of scientific and mathematical principles to practical ends such as the design, manufacture, and operation of efficient and economical structures, machines, processes, and systems.
The profession of or the work performed by an engineer.

Nothing to debate, mathematics is a subset of engineering.

Whoa. All right then.

That Andrew.

So we played second and short for two innings together?

This is weird. I listen to the FAN and comment on Andrew from Burlington trying to take the Bobcat on, then I find out I actually know the guy...sort of.

Both people I know that went to Carelton grew up in Vancouver. So maybe it's not a fair comparision. My bro moved to Toronto after he graded and he said he doesn't miss Ottawa at all. Both have a big city mentatlity so I get what they're saying.

Toronto and Vancouver both are a lot bigger than Ottawa and have a lot more things to do.

Yeah, that is pretty crazy........
I had no idea you were a baseball nut. Guess there isn't really any distingushing feature to pick us out of a crowd, but still.
I really, truly thought I was the only one in Burlington. And now I know there's another, close to the same age as me no less. This is really bizarre.

I had no idea you were a baseball nut.

Well, you've only ever met me on the baseball field and here. What else did you think?

I really, truly thought I was the only one in Burlington

So this is what it feels like when doves cry.

Hooray for the internet, bringing together people who've already met!

God I hate Millcroft. I have a friend named Joseph who lives there. His family is the biggest bunch of snobs. They only shop at that giant plaza with the Zellers and the Ultra Mart with overpriced everything. He thinks that stupid fountain is a symbol of prestiger or something. The worst: When we had the power outage last year, his mom said, I quote: "Well, I imagine they'll work on restoring power to Millcroft first of all."

I'm howling here. Yeah, because the Millcroft people use so much more electricity than everyone else. Man, that sums up Burlington to a T.

Conversation between me and the wife when we we first started looking for a house:

(She hands him one of the Real Estate sections from the paper)

"Should we look in Burlington?"

"I don't know, Burlington's OK."

"Well, you worked there, you know people from there. All I know is that it's expensive and a pain to drive through."

"It is expensive. But the West End is expensive too."

"Well, why don't we look in Burlington too?"

"Could you live in Burlington?"

(Folding down the newspaper and looking at her) "I don't know, people can live in Siberia, or the Amazon, I suppose I can live in Burlington."

"But can YOU live in Burlington?"

"Well, what if we move there? We don't go out anymore so that doesn't matter, the shopping would suck, the movie theatres suck, but you know..."

"What?"

"If we move to Burlignton..."

"We'd be Burlington people."

"Yeah."

I'll tell you. That set of callers with McCown cinched it for me.

I have my pessimistic side, and this season has really shaken me in my outlook about the Jays. But there's no excuse for some of the things people out there are saying and writing.

Two years and change from now, once Russ Adams has caught the final out of Game 6, clinching the win for Lilly, the save for Peterson and the World Series for the Jays, a lot of people out there are going to owe Ricciardi, Godfrey, the Jays organization, and people like us a whole stack of apologies. And I for one plan to be completely obnoxious come the day. I've been a good loser for too long and now I want to be a poor winner. I'm going to rub as many people's faces in as many things as possible and I'm going to enjoy every minute of it.

Andrew, COMN for my e-mail. We can talk on MSN or something, I don't want to flood these threads, and I doubt other people care about reading through 30 comments about how weird it is that we know each other.

All I know is that it's expensive and a pain to drive through.

F@&@%%^ing Guelph Line!

Folks, every bad thing Craig says about Borington is true. Don't me misinformed, it really is terrible.

Hardly any mentions of my own alma mater, conveniently located in the heart of downtown Toronto, within easy walking distance of more bars than you can shake a stick at...

Also, I got to study Shakespeare with some guy named Northrop Fryw back in the 1980s. Which was pretty cool.

Bob McCown is never wrong. If you don't believe me, ask him.

Pat Gillick? Pat "well, this team is going down the tubes next year, SEE YA!!" Gillick?

As a resident of Mississauga but a close friend of someone who went to Nelson I'm finding the entire dialogue strangely entertaining.

Hey, am I the only one with an arts degree here?

Ottawa is a hell hole compared to Vancouver or Toronto

That's like comparing UofT to Lakehead. Of course it's going to be better; it's got thousands of more students, and thus, thousands of more choices and funding to be had.

I went to Carleton, and I don't see what the big deal is. The campus is by far nicer than most of the others, and a lot of the professors are excellent. Sorry to say, but there's good and bad professors at every school, even everyone's darlings. The trick is to find the bad ones, and to avoid them as much as possible.

It's freakin way too cold in the Winter, no scenary, and nothing to do in general.

How to tackle this:
a) only someone from Southern Ontario could ever say Ottawa it too cold. Try northern Ontario (and Sudbury doesn't count). Considering I live in nwo 4 months of the year, the other 8 in eastern ontario are darm warm. our high school has never had a snow day, and the north gets way, way more snow - without the army stepping in :)
b) no scenery and nothing to do? then the people that told you that are either extremely narrow minded or failed to step outside their houses. Did they miss the national art gallery, the war museum, the parliament buildings, the hundreds of museums, film festivals, carnivals, ethnic functions, chinatown, the market, or any one of hundreds of things that can be done there, for quite cheaply. Plus I've been to several big-name concerts in the past three years for only $15 a ticket; try getting that at the ACC. Coming from a town of 3,300, all I can tell people is there's too much to do!

I'm not saying that Carleton a haven, but it's pretty unfair to judge any schools against each other. They're all different, and they all offer different needs. Is Waterloo crap because it doesn't offer a good english program? No; but that's not its specialty. The comments made earlier were perfect: it doesn't matter where you go, as long as you enjoy it and you make the most out of it. No matter where you end up, you will have good times and bad times, good profs and crappy profs, friends and enemies, love and hurt, but in the end it will be an experience.

And yes, the res was fun :) We won the awards for most visits and most complaints to security, most damage in $, and most inter-floor nookie. It was a very good year :) Frankly the people that say university is a hell-hole really shouldn't be there; they're either just going through the motions of a university education, or they're being lazy and not taking initiative to move on to something else. It becomes pretty obvious that they're not enjoying themselves and what they're doing. Why torture yourself and waste that kind of time and money?

Damn me and my slow typing, that's what I get for being an arts major (a.k.a. too slow in trying to articulate)....

McCown is now saying that he's sure Riccardi believes that he is the best GM in all of sports.

"If you can't befriend Bob Elliot, you can't befriend anybody."

Thanks, Bob.

McCowan is now saying that JP faced no criticism until this season. What. The. Hell.

I'd take him over cashman or epstein, who frankly get a hell of a lot more credit for making very odd moves, not to mention the almost endless supply of funds at their disposal.

I got to study Shakespeare with some guy named Northrop Fryw back in the 1980s

Northrop Fryw? Who's that? Some Polish guy?

McCowan is now saying that JP faced no criticism until this season. What. The. Hell.

I've heard that a few times this year. I think Griffin was one of its proponents. "I think, this year, a few people are starting to ask some questions about J.P." With, apparently, a straight face.

Hey, am I the only one with an arts degree here?

No. We have some English majors here too, but English majors don't get out of bed until 4:00 in the afternoon so they may not be here yet.

Hey Fozzy I'm talking about being too cold when coming from Vancouver and then moving to Ottawa.

In winter's in Vancouver, there's isn't even snow each year. And then in Ottawa it's like -20 with a wind chill.

And when comparing scenary (not really talking about art galleries, etc...) I'm talking about the clear blue skies, oceans, snow capped-mountains, etc... No place else in Canada can top BC for this. For anybody that disagrees go on a plane and check it out from way above. There's no comparision.

But the way I'm a Arts Student (Crim major/Sociology minor)

I must say the Seattle stations did a crappy job of covering Edgar's press conference. Out of the 3 news channels only one showed it and it was only on for about 7 mins. Oct. 2nd is Edgar night where they will honor him after the game. The CEO said the M's will do everything in their power to make sure Edgar goes into Cooperstown.

No. We have some English majors here too, but English majors don't get out of bed until 4:00 in the afternoon so they may not be here yet.

Must be nice, where do I sign up? Here I am, English degree in hand, and awake like a sucker.

Hey, am I the only one with an arts degree here?

Technically my Masters in math is an arts degree.

Jobu art student. Jobu psych major. Jobu nocturnal creature.

And when comparing scenary (not really talking about art galleries, etc...) I'm talking about the clear blue skies, oceans, snow capped-mountains, etc... No place else in Canada can top BC for this. For anybody that disagrees go on a plane and check it out from way above. There's no comparision.

Fair enough, BC is absolutly magnificent, but it's also unique. If oceans and scenery aren't your bag, then you will be genuinely disappointed in the scenery there. It's all about preference (I'd use the 'different strokes' cliches, but the giggling would be counter-productive).

Everywhere has their own unique scenery, it's just a matter or getting out and looking for it. For example here in Ottawa: how anyone can not love taking a walk on one of the lighted and paved Rideau canal trails during Indian Summer and having lunch or sitting out at sunset under a huge tree is beyond help. It's not only unique, it's cheap, easy, accessible from both schools, free to do, and best of all, the ladies love it.

And then in Ottawa it's like -20 with a wind chill.

My co-workers are snickering over this right now. -20 and a wind chill is not uncommon in the north for mid-October; hell, the average temperature in July was 7.6 degrees celcius. July!! It got down to 2 above a couple of nights ago! The humanity of it all!!!!!!!

I will give southern ontario credit though, those wet winters are brutal! I just wish motorists would put 2+2 together. Rain and snow + freezing temperatures does not = driving 20km/h above the speed limit.

Technically my Masters in math is an arts degree.

What else could it be? Math isn't a science.

Ron, how is criminology? Where are you?

I'm an arts student. I actually have 8:30 classes this year. Blargh.

Another Burlingtonian here (downtown core). Aldershot grad.

Also a U of T grad. English major. Just woke up.

The list of Borington Bauxites just keeps growing. ;)

I do media studies- not sure what that qualifies me as...

Yawn... actually, I've been up since 2pm. I was both an English major and a Film Studies major (at Laurier). While I was watching movies in school, Mike Harris was saying that we need fewer arts students and more science and technology students.

He was half right. Ironically, I currently work for a website, even though I never trained for the job.

http://me.woot.net
What else could it be? Math isn't a science.

*Points to his future B.Math degree*

Exactly.

Mike Harris was saying that we need

I generally ignore anything that comes after these words.

That wasn't politically motivated (I hate all 3 Ontario parties), so no need for any politics on Da Box. It was personally motivated.

**

Tosca discussion on the FAN Round Table now with McCown. This should be fun. They brought up the 90 win thing again, does anyone have a quote of J.P. saying that?

What else could it be? Math isn't a science.

It lives on the same block as science. My bachelor's degree in math is a B.Sc. I believe other schools offer M.Sc.s in math. Let me put it this way: math is a science in the same sense that car racing is a sport. In other words, it's not, but it's appreciated on the same level and sociologically treated like it is.

They keep saying J.P. should have found a way to get rid of Delgado.
HE HAS A NO-TRADE CLAUSE. Sorry for shouting.

McCown says "Trade him in the 2003 offseason."
Yeah, that's great. Headlines: "BLUE JAYS TRADE TEAM MVP, GM IS TERRIBLE"

Also, the Eric Gagne thing. Don't these guys have any knowledge of the situation? At the time, Gagne was a failed starter. Let's say that he was available, just to argue:
Who knew he would become the ubercloser that he is now? Anyone? Anyone?

Toronto knows nothing about baseball and I, like Matthew, will rub it in everyone's face when they win.

Both Ricciardi and Jim Evans have denied that Gagne was available. Of course, it's in their best interest to say that, but... two years from now, when Justin Morneau hits 40 homers for the Twins, we'll be hearing the same stuff, that Ricciardi had a chance to acquire Morneau but didn't try hard enough - even though Terry Ryan has made it clear that Morneau isn't available.

Most schools offer their Mathematics graduates a B.Sc. Waterloo is the only in Canada that offers a Bachelor of Mathematics.

That's it. These radio guys have made me so mad, I'm going to eat some ice cream and cool down.

One more thing before I go:
You're making me feel old, brother... I could show you a thing or two at the original "Mario Brothers" on the Commodore 64!

Let's compromise and go for the SNES version.

They brought up the 90 win thing again, does anyone have a quote of J.P. saying that?

No, because he never said any such thing. It was Carlos Tosca, by telephone from Dunedin back in February, who told a gathering of season-ticket holders (and assembled media) that he thought it would take 95 wins to make the playoffs, so that was his goal -- not necessarily a prediction. After the event, J.P. refused to set any numerical standard for success, saying that he believed his team would improve on 2003, but that Boston, New York and Baltimore were obviously stronger as well.

Did anyone see the O-Dog sound bite on RSN? He said he doesn't like Gibby -- he loves him. Admitted that the new skipper always has more confidence in Hudson's ability than Orlando sometimes does in himself. It took guts to put a guy hitting .177/.239/.258 since the break in the 2-hole; a 3-for-5 afternoon may not be statistically significant but it's a damn pleasant coincidence.

I was both an English major and a Film Studies major (at Laurier). While I was watching movies in school, Mike Harris was saying that we need fewer arts students and more science and technology students.

I was in business school here in Alberta when King Ralph made a similar comment about the province needing more engineers and less business majors and lawyers. I got so mad, I went to law school.

BA Saint Mary's, PhD in progress, U of T. I'm rarely up before two. (I just got up from a nap. Seriously.)

Is this still a baseball thread?

I'm not sure this is still a baseball site.

http://me.woot.net
Something I missed asking about earlier: who was coaching at first for the Jays?

Joe Breeden was moved from the bench to first.

Since everyone else is doing it, I studied photography at Sheridan. Then I married rich. ;)

This ought to win the Yankees fans over:

"They're not playing the game. They don't know what is going on," said Loaiza (about being booed at Yankee Stadium)

Most schools offer their Mathematics graduates a B.Sc. Waterloo is the only in Canada that offers a Bachelor of Mathematics.

That was true until a few years ago. The University of Windsor now offers a Bachelor of Mathematics. Your main point is valid, though; few universities grant such a degree, preferring instead to grant BSc or BA.

I was channel surfing and found JP and Godfrey on TV right now (channel 58 in Vancouver) . It's some show showing stock reports and talking about business. The show is dated April 19th, 2004. They're taking calls and it's interesting hearing how JP said it was vital Phelps get 500-600 AB's this season to see what he can do.

Is this still a baseball thread?

I was at a discussion on universities the other day and a baseball game broke out.

great game today. I must be the only one with a job because I had to read this thread to get the full gist of the game.

Incidentally, anyone who considers Ottawa a hellhole because of its weather ought to spend a winter in Winnipeg. Although the 'peg is great in the summer (especially if you have a cottage), it makes Ottawa seem pretty warm.

Queen's is better than Western because Kingston is a better town (despite what that Moffatt fellow said). Manitoba certainly seems to have a better medical school than both however. Can't comment on the other programs.

I'm in my last year of a Communication Studies at Windsor. Possibly law school afterwards (pray for me), maybe a year off to roam around aimlessly in Europe. I get the best of both worlds sandwiched between the Tigers and Jays, good thing they both have successful hockey teams otherwise I'm sure some sort of collective riot would have broken out by now.

I live in Windsor too. I never go to tigers games though, got to stay loyal to the Jays, lol.

I live near Windsor. It's a mistake not to get across the river to Comerica, great ballpark and this year a far better atmosphere than Skydome.

I must be the only one with a job

No, you must be the only one with a job without internet access.

no offense, but I only live there when I have to, it gets pretty depressing after a while. Good party town if you can tolerate 19 year olds from Ann Arbor...

http://www.sfu.ca/criminology/
Ron, how is criminology? Where are you?

I'm a Crim Major at SFU (possibly the best Crim program in Canada)and I really enjoy it. Nice range of material like law, why people commit crime, types of crime, etc... Within the program you also take Philosphy, Psych, Sociology, English courses, etc...

The thing I don't like is the Left Wing attitude of material and certain professors (of course I understand University's in general are left wing but still.....)

http://abshanno@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca
For what it's worth, every single person I knew in first year (at Waterloo) who didn't spend 6 nights a week working (and typically the other one with a blood alcohol level of .25) failed out after first year, unless they went to a top tier high school (for example, Earl Haig, UTS, UCC, Martin Grove, Woburn or Leaside in Toronto)

In my program, of the 68 who started first year, 19 of those made it to 2nd year.

In general, if you're unsure as to whether or not you should come to Waterloo, the answer is: You should not.

Wow, I never thought the number of comments in a thread would outnumber every Canadian freeway.

Never mind. The QEW is also known as Highway 451. We've got some work to do.

"No, you must be the only one with a job without internet access"

And yet the canadian economy marches along, despite all the obvious time and energy put into work-unrelated topics. Clearly, we need to secure better internet access at the jobsite.

Whoa. This thread has changed directions since I was last here. For the record, I'm a Waterloo grad (B.Math '84, M.Math '89; yes, I'm old :-)).

And yes, co-op does drain your time. Especially when you're doing a Jan-April co-op term. You will literally end work on a Friday and start classes Monday.

Perhaps employers are more demanding now, but I used to be able to get my co-op employers to let me leave a week early, which gave me some vacation time.

Damn, it's been too long since I've been to Waterloo. What was the bar beside the Royal Bank (across from WLI)? They used to take Canadian Tire money at par. Morty's?

Yes, it was Morty's. (He used to have a pizza place in Parkdale Plaza before he opened Morty's; my roommates and I ordered pizza there so much, he used to give us special extra-cheesy garlic bread. Mmmmmmm.)

What are you studying, Andrew S? I took Mech Eng and I sure didn't work that hard. Nor did I hear of crazy failure rates like you're talking about.

Woo hoo. I went to a top tier high school, by Andrew S's standards anyway. And I'll staunchly defend it, as opposed to the attitude I hold towards Queen's. (Martingrove is one word, btw.)

FWIW we did send a good number of people to Waterloo's tough programs, and they are all doing fine as far as I know.

Ron, what do you plan to do with your degree, or have you thought that far ahead?

I agree wholeheartedly with the earlier sentiments that the standard between universities isn't as great as some people think it is. Maybe with a few programs there are some top tier schools, but generally not. If you are committed to learning and getting a good education, you will find it wherever you go.

And you will find people of all types at all the big universities, but it's just a matter of finding the ones that have something in common with you. But from what I have experienced, stereotypes with regards to the type of people who go to certain universities and about the prevailing university culture are largely true.

I agree, which is why I had to take issue with you saying you won't use a lick of math in the real world. Engineers and computer scientists use math all the time.

It depends how you count it. Compared to some other random profession (law, medicine, etc), I'm sure a lot more math is done by engineers and CS types. On the other hand, if you line up programmers on a scale of how much math they use, I'm sure the median and probably the vast majority use nothing more than high school albebra, and sporadically at that. As far as capital-E Engineering professions, I have no idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was similar.

Very true gid, in my experience. Joe mis-quoted me in implying that I said "not a lick of math", period. "Not a lick of university engineering math" is the essence of what I said. And no, it's not true for everybody. Just the vast majority.

Well, as long as we are stating our education I'll join the non-Arts side: BSc. in Comp. Sci. from the University of Calgary (2003).

I was an English major. Minored in Philosophy in order to collect a vast array of perspectives on how to deal with the fact that there were no jobs for English majors.

Ron, what do you plan to do with your degree, or have you thought that far ahead?

I plan on becoming a youth worker or counsellor.

I want to do Co-op some time next year (I really want to do international co-op if I could.....) but as it stands right now I don't think I'm going to have the grades to do it.

I'm thinking about volunteering at a Juvi Jail.

I plan on becoming a youth worker or counsellor.

Great timing on that post, following my little sarcastic riff about no jobs for English majors ... my first four years out of college were spent as a youth director, working with high school and junior high kidlings.

I plan on becoming a youth worker or counsellor.

Stay far, far away from Ontario. In education, where the bulk of the jobs used to be, our funding formula no longer affords school boards the "luxury" of youth counsellors. That in itself should be a criminal offense. I can't express how many stories I've heard of students' lives being saved by a good counsellor.

The problem is that in BC the the education system is pretty empty too in terms of jobs. If not in schools, there's always work in woman shelter's, etc...

My friend did her PDP (basically certified to teach K-Grade 12)and she got sick and tired of the lack of full-time teaching jobs so she moved to North Carolina where she has a full-time gig. Quite a culture shock coming from Vancouver then moving all the way to North Carolina.

Western's social science center is uglyest building in Canada

Queen's is much closer to downtown (closer walk to bars)

Jeez, I thought this was turning into a kind of nice game thread when it was hijacked by a couple of eggheads having a pissing match about which of their universities is king. And one of them can't even spell. Or else he graduated from the UGLIEST university around.... Anyhow, everyone knows that anyone who's anyone went to Brock.

It's been said that if you can walk, and you can talk, you can get into Brock, but I think that's awfully tough on the wheelchair-bound mute.

Andrew S, I was in math, and my experience wasn't anything like you described. And I certainly wasn't from a top school. I also have some friends that were in science (which I assume is your program), and their experience wasn't like that either. (Some were in sci-bus and some in bio chem).

I did alot of travelling last summer, and everywhere I went I would look at the university, as I tried to figure out which was the most pleasing to the eye, and which was the least. THe university of Edmonton was pretty nice looking, but I think Dalhousie wins. UofT is nice too, but it's hit and miss, some buildings are really nice, some are just old houses. :)

As for the least attractive universities... I still don't think I've found anything that competes with Waterloo. I've heard York isn't very attractive though, so I might have to go there and compare.

Oh, I'm in physics, where we've been shafted extra hard, but Waterloo consistantly ranks among the lowest graduation rates in Ontario. The school has a very "bottom heavy" pyramid where the acceptance standards are far lower compared to the coursework standards than is the case at most other universities. This is good if you went to a top tier highschool, because the challenge level is something you're used to, but if you're from a lower highschool all of a sudden the 42 on your Descartes that got you into pure math isn't going to save you.

The university wide survival rate is far more like 2/3 of students making it all the way through. But the sampling of who works hard versus who doesn't come back for second year was mostly taken away from my residence, which had a reasonable mix of programs.

I dunno. After seeing so many people waste a year of their life and $10000+ I just feel compelled to warn people that unless they're sure, Waterloo isn't the school for them.

But, like any other school, it does cycle. 10, 15 years ago, CS started to transform from "teaching you computer science" to "allowing computer nerds to come prove themselves against our exacting standards". It's starting to move back to a more sensible level as computer science becomes more mainstream but there are still a lot of profs there who expect you to essentially learn it on your own and just prove it to them. Testing grounds for the leet or something.

Yo Ron: I used to own the SFU pub back in the late 90s, prior to the remodelling.

Waterloo consistantly ranks among the lowest graduation rates in Ontario.

Andrew S, do you have hard stats on this? As someone who went to Waterloo and survived just fine despite not being at all studious, I'm having a hard time believing it. It'd be a shame if someone chose not to go to a great school and a great program (co-op) because they got scared by your comments.

As for "wasted $10,000", that's another beauty of the co-op program. A good friend of mine started in Engineering with me, and after the first 4 months decided it was not for him (he passed all his courses). Not only was he out 4 months tuition instead of 8, he also had a co-op job to go to for the next 4 months.

And once you get out in the work-a-day world, I'll bet you'll have a different perspective on what makes for wasting a year of your life.

Ah, Physics, the hardest of the sciences.

However, I don't think I'm convinced on all of your points. Waterloo is known for having extremely high entrance average requirements, and you're the first person I've heard say otherwise. In last year's Maclean's survey, Waterloo ranked first in the comprehensive university category for average entering grade *(tied with Victoria).
You can see those results here:
http://www.uwaterloo.ca/documents/macleans/
Click on the comprehensive link to see where Waterloo placed.

Also, I'm extremely doubtfull of your statement that only 2/3rds of students graduate. I don't think there's a school in the country with graduation rates that low. Just wait, I'll look it up...
On this page:
http://www.analysis.uwaterloo.ca/HTML/kpi.htm
you can get the graduation rates at Waterloo for various years. You'll see that Waterloo is consistently above average.
Physcial sciences are the lowest graduation rate though.

I've also never heard anything about what schools you went to high school at. I went to a very mediocre high school and didn't do well on the Descartes and did fine. I don't know many people that went to what might be considered a 'top' high school.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I'd like to see some evidence of these claims.

http://me.woot.net
I to a 'nothing-special' high school, got a 44 or 45 on the Descartes, got offered nothing for entrance scholarships (while U of T was falling all over itself to get me to go there) and STILL I chose Waterloo, specifically because of co-op. As it turns out, I'm also a pretty good student.

In my mind, there are two types of people who are able to succeed in math and engineering at Waterloo: The smart guys who didn't really have to work in highschool (me), and the people who work really hard all the time. The smart guys, unless they adapt to the fact that they're going to have to work really hard most of the time, get pretty low marks.

Maybe the most important thing that you learn in math classes, and here I include computer science in the term 'math classes', is the requirement for hard work. There's nothing like spending two hours trying (and failing) to finish the first question out of ten on your weekly assignment to teach you the value of hard work.

And Jonny, I don't think I mischaracterized what you said. I use university math in my regular job. Maybe you don't, but I'll bet a piece of software you use in your day-to-day job required it. It's always there, ever-present. And, if nothing else, you got hair on your chest from finishing the courses. :)

Joe: Is quantum computing taught in the CS or CEng program at Waterloo?

Boy, all this talk of the Descartes competition brings back memories of many moons ago. I don't even remember how I did (I remember getting medals for all the earlier competitions but not for that one) but I remember how much harder it was than the other competitions. I don't think I ever wrote a test that broke my brain before that one.

I think I faked sick on Descartes day.

http://me.woot.net
J.R.,

CS. The course is CS 467, and as far as I know it's taught by Mike Mosca, the Big Quantum Computing Guy on campus. He is the co-founder of the Institute for Quantum Computing and also a founding member of the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics.

So, in short, he's a smart guy. :)

O yeah, I remember Mike Mosca, he gave a lecture to a group of high schoolers from my school that went to Waterloo for a visit. I got lost about 10 minutes into his one hour lecture. He's apparently a god-like figure on campus, or at least my math teacher paints him that way.

http://me.woot.net
There aren't any real god-like figures on campus. My housemates had Mosca for Math 239, our introduction to combinatorics & optimization (think counting theory), and he was apparently a pretty good teacher.

He does, however, have an IQC plaque on his door, which looks pretty impressive.

I've had two absolutely fabulous teachers in math: Dr. G. Tenti, who taught me an alternate calculus 2 course—and made it really, really interesting—and Lee Dickey, my current prof for PMATH 360, Geometry. Professor Dickey is actually a professor emeritus; as I understand it he only teaches geometry, and that only comes once a year. Other than that, it's been pretty hit-or-miss, but I consider any really good teacher to have god-like status. It's one thing to do good research, but it's another entirely to be able to teach a class of people and make it interesting.

Another thing: be a bit wary of people who introduce themselves as Dr so-and-so. In my experience, the best teachers are humble enough to use just their first and last names, although I think Dr. Tenti is the exception to the rule. (He's about the only prof I mentally add the honourifc to.)

Anyways, I'm not sure where I'm going with this. Maybe "if you get the chance, take PMATH 360."

combinatorics & optimization (think counting theory)

Joe, that did not help me at all.

Mick, I think it's the kind of Math that'll get you banned from casinos.

YOu ever seen Good Will Hunting?

You know the part where he's writing on a wall and it looks like he's doing connect the dots?

That's graph theory, which is a big part of combinatorics and optimization. And it's hard as ****.

http://me.woot.net
Another example of C&O material is enumeration: I've got a string of length N made up of 0s and 1s with certain properties, and I want to know how many such strings exist. This comes up a lot in statistics.

If you're at all familiar with business programs, operations management uses a lot of C&O-related topics. Inventory management, how to ship things to various places (graph theory), etc. It's a very interesting field, and a fairly young one (unlike algebra, and younger even than calculus).

Waterloo's C&O department was the home of some pretty leading-edge C&O research. I'm not sure whether it's still considered at the forefront, but with the links to cryptography and other very interesting topics, there are some great people in the field at UW. You can find more high-level information about C&O at the C&O site.