I'm really quite surprised that Griffin isn't the nastiest sportswriter in TO this morning. That Elliot piece is vicious.

The greatest tangible benefit I'm looking for from Gibbons is bullpen management. That alone should be worth a couple wins over the course of the season. Wasn't Gibbons a catcher? One might hope that will help.

That Elliot piece is vicious.

I agree ... "Big Time."

If there's a good and courteous way of firing someone, I haven't heard about it.

Ricciardi was on the FAN 590 earlier this morning and the radio guys gave him the opportunity to respond to the Griffin column. He said, basically, that the timing of the firing (in relation to the postgame scrum) was the most convenient for all concerned, and that if Tosca wanted to talk to any players about it, or vice versa, 'there's an invention called the 'phone''. He also said that he doesn't pay attention to what Griffin writes, because Griffin doesn't have much of a clue about baseball.

I wish Ricciardi wouldn't do stuff like that. I mean, I enjoy it, and I can certainly understand why he'd want to say it, but he's not doing himself any good. You can't win a fight with the press because they have no limits on what they can print about you.

I'd like to see Kevin Cash start at least half of the games at catcher, and I would prefer to not see Dave Berg start again.

on Bob Elliott: He's suggesting it's JP who was driving Tosca to make all those mad pitching changes, saying this reliever has to face this hitter late in the game. I highly doubt that.

Ten million points for Mick, who nailed the 1986 Peter Gabriel hit Big Time. Gabriel, once one of my very favourite performers, recently sold that song to an ad agency to use in a commercial for SUVs. I can't begin to tell you how horribly ironic that is.

In honour of our Texas-based winner today, we will bestow The Great American Muppet:

Damn, I was too slow on this one. Big Time contains one of my favourite lyrics of all time, about the size of pillow needed for his big fat head.

Matthew, while I agree JP may not be helping the situation sounding off on Griffin, I doubt anything is going to change because of this comment. In two and a half years here it's become evident that most major news sources in the city are not going to give him a fair shake, for whatever reason. Most of them will post predominantely critical articles of his decisions and philosophy, with the occasional positive piece thrown in to try to maintain some semblence of balance.

I don't think Griffin is going to start writing more negative pieces about JP because of what he said, as it would be tough for him to be more negative to begin with. Presumably the two have a frosty relationship to begin with, so I don't think JP is endangering that by sounding off. Yes the press may have more resources than JP does, but to just give them a free pass to print what they want without rebuttal isn't the answer. I imagine that after two and a half years I'd have become pretty frustrated with them, too. They've been calling for Tosca's head for a while and now he gives it to them, they complain because it's not decorated correctly.

I agree with the point that there should have been some opportunity to let Tosca address the team as a whole. JP's comment about a phone is valid, but it's harder to track down 25 guys and say the same thing each of them. JP made a fair statement that most players don't stick around in the clubhouse for very long after a loss, especially not a big one. However, I still wonder if some arrangement couldn't have been made to allow Tosca 10 minutes to talk to the guys after receiving the news. Maybe Butterfield or one of the other coaches could have just told the players to stick around for 15 minutes.

Other interesting tidbits came from the interview. Namely JP said the new manager would have to be onboard with the Jays philosophy, which isn't a suprise really but an indication that they may not hire a Tosca and try to fit him into the "Moneyball offence". An interesting point was that the host (Bill Hays?) asked about Ron Washington and JP dismissed him, saying he didn't think he was interested in managing, and not here. JP also said the Jays weren't going to go after a big name, as they'd have a hard time affording him and he wouldn't want to be part of a rebuilding project.

The final section in the "waivers" article has the poor, sob story of Randy Johnson. You know, the guy who signed a lucrative contract, which added greatly to his financial security. The guy who played a key role on a World Championship team. That same guy is now crying tears over the prospect of remaining with the Arizona Diamondbacks.

And, while the D-Backs feel they can jump back into the competitive mix in 2005, Johnson doesn't sound so sure.

As he put it: "... I'm in a boat with no oars and the perfect storm is about to hit."

This is the same guy who refused to wave his no-trade clause except to a select group of teams. Randy Johnson is now crying about the fact that he may have to play out the rest of his contract with the sad-sack Arizona Diamondbacks.

The Jays also aren't likely to go after a big name because JP appears to be one of those "hands on" general managers who likes a fair bit of say with on-field matters. There is less chance of a power struggle between the GM and the manager if you go with someone with less experience.

In two and a half years here it's become evident that most major news sources in the city are not going to give him a fair shake, for whatever reason.

I don't think this is correct. If Ricciardi wants adulation from the local sporting press, all he has to do is win. Our local media have no shame, nor pride... if someone wins, they will kiss his butt and call it ice cream no matter what they really think of him. If Ricciardi takes this Jays team to the playoffs, he will get plaudits from all and sundry until they can plaudit no more.

I was expecting Griffin to be more vicious than that, to be honest.

One question: if the Jays had made the decision to fire Tosca during the game, would there be any practical way to inform him of the decision after the game but before the post-game interviews? Does the manager traditionally go straight from the clubhouse to the press room? Since the general manager usually doesn't go into the clubhouse during the game, and watches the game from an upper-level press box, it would take him some time to get from his vantage point to the manager's office. By then it would be too late. (And making the writers - who are on deadline - wait after a game is probably equivalent to tossing a chunk of red meat into a river full of piranhas before diving in for a refreshing swim.)

And it's better to fire somebody after a game than before a game - imagine how Tosca would have felt if he'd spent hours doing his usual pre-game preparations, only to find out just before game time that he was getting the axe. Ideally, you'd want to fire a manager on an off-day, but the Jays didn't have any coming up.

As for the rest of the season? I expect more of the same, sadly. It's hard to push yourself physically and mentally to achieve excellence in meaningless contests. I think it would be best to give as many youngsters a chance as possible - to find out exactly what the team needs for next year - and let the regulars heal their various mental and physical wounds. Then, next year, with new players and a new manager, start fresh.

i agree with elliot and griffin. i know that's not something you hear often amongst blue jays fans, but i can't disagree with what they said. expecting any manager to win with the amount of injuries and underacieving on this team is unrealistic. so let's fire the scapegoat and get yet another robot to play the game the way ricciardi and his buddies feel it should be played. now if only jp can get 3 num. 1 starters.

if we are not going to hire a pinella type manager, then firing tosca just to replace him with a tosca equivilent is about as insignificant a move as there is.

i think the jays will go on a mini run to end the year. firing the manager always seems to do that.

If Ricciardi takes this Jays team to the playoffs, he will get plaudits from all and sundry until they can plaudit no more.

I seriously doubt this is the case with RG. If/when the Jays make the playoffs under Ricciardi, Griffin will write a "why did it take you this long" piece. If they don't happen to win the World Series, Griffin will write that J.P.'s "Moneyball" tactics don't work in the playoffs.

A world championship would probably produce nothing more than a grunt of acknowledgement from RG. He would then write a piece about how the Jays have no chance of keeping the team together because they can't pay them enough.

There is no limit to the grinding of RG's axe.

Of course, what JP said about Washington could simply have been said to avoid breaking the tampering laws and to avoid all sorts of incessent speculation for the next two months.

i think the jays will go on a mini run to end the year. firing the manager always seems to do that.

Just ask the Diamondbacks.

I'm just ignoring axe-grinders Elliott and Griffin. Mike Wilner, Jeff Blair and Spencer Fordin tell me everything I need to know without the tedious barrage of cheap shots.

Geoff Baker's piece on Gibbons is fair, and Mike Ganter's notes are informative -- in addition to the switch of Miller and Douglass, effective Wednesday, "Gumby" reports that Kevin Frederick was ill when he got rocked last week, and Vernon Wells has been suffering migraine headaches. Like the alarming news about Batista's sore back, that should remind fans who criticize every perceived failure that baseball is a very difficult game, played by imperfect humans.

I'll be at work today and have a doctor's appointment, so I won't be following the game or hanging out here until this evening. I hope the team responds positively to the shakeup and Gibby stays undefeated.

I repeat my endorsement of Gibbons, who has done nothing but win with every team he's ever managed, but if things don't change dramatically over the next few weeks, we'll probably see another new skipper in the spring. Don't rule out one of the existing minor-league guys, like Marty Pevey or Mike Basso, or someone else from within the organization, such as Dickie Scott.

Our local media have no shame, nor pride... if someone wins, they will kiss his butt and call it ice cream no matter what they really think of him.

Many of the local writers would rather dine on ground glass than write an article praising the Jays.

In 1992 and 1993, the press coverage of the Jays was uniformly negative (except for some grudgingly respectful columns produced when the Jays beat the A's in the 1992 ALCS). As I recall, none of the local writers picked the Jays to repeat in the AL East.

I assume this is because of the prevalent "no cheering in the press box" culture. I also suspect that being a baseball columnist is a thankless job, especially when the team is going poorly. Spending night after night in a cavernously empty SkyDome must curdle the soul after a while.

if someone wins, they will kiss his butt and call it ice cream no matter what they really think of him.

I agree with Mr. Dudek. Judging by all that has been said, the JP / Griffin thing looks very personal.

Perhaps I went overboard in saying the media in general won't give JP a fair shake. If in three and a half years the Jays go to the World Series, I'm sure most of the radio guys and some of the columnists will say, "Hey, JP said it would take five years and it took six, but he got us there. They have a really good young team and it looks like he's built a team that should contend for the next few years."

But with Griffin, I agree with Robert. I really doubt he'd roll out the gold carpet for JP. He'd complain that JP should have altered his philosophy in the playoffs; he'd complain that our college draftpicks just aren't as good as a few high schoolers from the same drafts who are already contributing; he'd complain that JP is going to jump ship as things leave; that JP traded some prospects for rental players so how is he going to continue this sustainable farm system.

I hope he proves me wrong, but I've see nothing from Griffin so far that leads me to believe he'll ever write more than a couple of pro-JP pieces a month.

I don't think this is correct. If Ricciardi wants adulation from the local sporting press, all he has to do is win. Our local media have no shame, nor pride... if someone wins, they will kiss his butt and call it ice cream no matter what they really think of him.

I dont know Ive always thought the media in this city were overly critical of all sports teams no matter how well they do. They hate the Leafs even though they spend money, make the playoffs every year, and have a huge and loyal fanbase but they also hate the Jays who are the total opposite of that. The only team they like right now is the Argos (who they hated last year). They dont have a certain sports philosophy that they agree with, they offer no constructive criticm, they only know that whatever is currently going on it's their job to point out all the things that are wrong with it.

I really have no explanation for it. Id like to think that it's because they've had clashes with the team at some point, and that it's a personality or emotional issue, but then Im forced to remind myself that the columnists do all their work from their office and rarely if ever even venture to the ballpark or arena in some cases.

Spending night after night in a cavernously empty SkyDome must curdle the soul after a while.

If any of them don't like it, give me the job.

I should have actually read Robert's post, instead of the first line and then proceeding to inadvertently copy most of it.

Marty Pevey in particular is, from what I've heard, very well regarded throughout baseball; he's a big-league manager in training. In apparent contrast to his Toronto counterpart, Pevey ripped his Skychiefs recently for lackadaisacal play even when they (like the Blue Jays) were racked with injuries and poor performances (not to mention numerous callups and roster changes). Pevey wouldn't accept excuses for losing; he still expected maximum effort from his squad. Good for him, I say. When the storm hits, you don't want a captain who says, "Well, if the ship sinks, one could hardly be surprised under the circumstances." Not saying that was Tosca's attitude, but it surely had become his team's.

All that said, let's see what Gibbons can do. Cito Gaston started off as a temporary fill-in and went on to win two World Series. Youneverknow. (BTW, that is not an endorsement of Cito for manager. His day in Toronto is over.)

I'm actually coming to enjoy the Griffin-Ricciardi war somewhat; it's an amusing sideline to an ugly season. You don't see many old-fashioned hammer-and-tongs battles between two influential men who neither like nor respect the other. Some days, I daresay the two of them even enjoy it somewhat themselves.

Many of the local writers would rather dine on ground glass than write an article praising the Jays.

What's funny about it is that if you talk to them one-on-one, they all love baseball and all hope and pray and wish and root for the Jays to do well, just like any other nutty fan.

I assume this is because of the prevalent "no cheering in the press box" culture. I also suspect that being a baseball columnist is a thankless job, especially when the team is going poorly. Spending night after night in a cavernously empty SkyDome must curdle the soul after a while.

I think the first part of that is right. There's a strange connection between "unbiased" and "negative". They are not the same, but that's the perception: you can't have unbiased reporting without tearing the team to bits.

As to the second part, I'm doin' my best. ;)

I've been really happy with the Jays coverage in the Globe and Mail: the guys don't make me shake my fist or scream, often make me nod and say "I didn't think of that", and there's been a lot more baseball coverage lately, including some good Olympic stuff. In fact, the article from the weekend about the women's softball team (and more specifically about their ace pitcher, Lauren Bay) made me genuinely excited to see them play.

I'm actually coming to enjoy the Griffin-Ricciardi war somewhat; it's an amusing sideline to an ugly season. You don't see many old-fashioned hammer-and-tongs battles between two influential men who neither like nor respect the other. Some days, I daresay the two of them even enjoy it somewhat themselves.

Like my daydream about Vince Carter and Richard Peddie sitting together and drinking beers and making anonymous phone calls to reporters and killing themselves laughing, sometimes I wonder if J.P. and Griffin are really drinking buddies and if J.P. has a hand in some of Griffin's more outrageous pronouncements.

I've been really happy with the Jays coverage in the Globe and Mail

Ditto for me and the Globe's Raptors coverage, of all things.

Go figure... trumped by the national paper for local team coverage.

Well, take it where you find it, right miV?

Heh, they're discussing Griffin's article on the Fan right now. Hogan keeps saying "I don't think that's the story at all. I think Richard's a better writer than this."

But with Griffin, I agree with Robert. I really doubt he'd roll out the gold carpet for JP. He'd complain that JP should have altered his philosophy in the playoffs; he'd complain that our college draftpicks just aren't as good as a few high schoolers from the same drafts who are already contributing; he'd complain that JP is going to jump ship as things leave; that JP traded some prospects for rental players so how is he going to continue this sustainable farm system.

Actually, my money is on "The Jays may have won the World Series, but their plodding style of all-hit, no-defence made it one of the dullest playoff runs in the last century."

The Globe & Mail: Curtain drops on Tosca’s sad opera

Points to the Globe for their clever headline.

Did anyone else catch the subtle Giacomo Puccini reference?

One thing the media seems to forget is that the Jays, at least at this point, are facing a very steep uphill battle to make the playoffs, even if they field a good team. They not only have to get past the Yankees and their seemingly endless payroll, but the Red Sox as well. Baseball should re-align the divisions so that all the large market teams are together and the smaller market teams are together. Then the large market teams can spend all their millions of dollars and not make the playoffs and see how it feels to get bullied. OK, I'm only half serious...

What's funny about it is that if you talk to them one-on-one, they all love baseball and all hope and pray and wish and root for the Jays to do well, just like any other nutty fan.

I didn't know that - that's fascinating to discover. I offer two hypotheses, then:

1. Writers don't want to appear to be too syncophantic, hence there may be a tendency to bend over backwards to be critical.

2. To a certain extent, a sportswriter's job is to drum up interest in his columns and in the newspaper. It's more fun to find an entertaining "hook" for a story than to write tripe day after day.

I've been really happy with the Jays coverage in the Globe and Mail

So have I; I've learned things I didn't know.

As to the second part, I'm doin' my best. ;)

I should check out the Cheer Club sometime - I (blush) haven't been to any games recently, and I should go. (I've been sick a lot this summer, which is a partial excuse.)

There's this funny correlation between how low the Jays sink and how few people come out to the Cheer Club. It's been pretty rough the last few weeks.

All you need to know about Bob Elliot is he consistently wrote that Shannon Stewart was the Jays best hitter because, I don't know, he's a flat out .300 hitter or he could roll out of bed in December and hit .300 or blah blah blah.

He's a lucky man, though, since he never has to pay for a meal whenever there's a scout in the room.

I think the general opinion is that Tosca was a scapegoat for the team’s performance when the real problem is primarily injuries and a lack of talent (admittedly I didn’t read the local papers).

But that ignores the awful start the team got off to when no was injured. And if I remember correctly the team’s best run this year was when they were in one of their more injury filled times.

Where Tosca failed was to get his players to improve, or even play to an established level. Hinske’s regressed from his rookie year at the plate, Wells is down this year, Delgado’s barely hitting, Hudson should be doing more at the plate, the team got nothing out of Woodward, and Phelps went from a top power prospect to a replacement level DH who could only hit lefties.

With the pitchers I don’t think any pitcher that was acquired has pitched at an expected level. Batista went from a 2.4 K/BB last year to a 1.3 K/BB this year. Adams has always been a really good reliever, this year he was a disaster. Ligtenberg has been consistently good prior to this year, now he’s a mess. Speier pitched better in Colorado than he has in Toronto. In Colorado!. What happened with Aqualino? (Actually, Lilly has improved this year, but even his walk rate is up this year).

So whether the lack of performance was bad instruction or the team ‘tuning out’ the manager, one way or another the manager is ultimately responsible.

And I suspect that if JP & Co think part of the problem is the players they’ll be shipped out as well.

My $0.02.

Tosca may have had the respect of his players, but he had some major shortcomings.

1. He had an annoying habit of leaving his starters in too long.

2. He was obsessed with matchups, and would often pull a reliever who was pitching well to get the matchup he wanted.

3. When given a choice, 9 times out of 10 he chose defense over offense. I have no problem with late inning defensive replacements, but an offense that uses Chris Gomez as a 1B and Dave Berg as a corner outfielder is not going to score enough runs to win. There were many times when fielding a squad that would score a few more runs would have been appropriate.

Larry Dierker would be an excellent choice as far as I'm concerned. During his days in Houston, he showed a knack for drawing upon the strengths of a team, while at the same time minimizing it's weaknesses. As a former pitcher, he has a good feel for how hard he can push his starters. He also prefers to avoid mid-inning pitching changes wherever possible.

When Larry Dierker was in Houston he wasn't a moneyball manager, he would do things like a lot of sacrifice bunts and if JP wants a moneyball guy then Dierker doesn't seem like that great a choise.

I think Gibson will be permanent manager next year, providing the team plays at/near the .500 level the rest of the season. I also think he's a good choice for a variety of reasons.

-He's a former catcher and a bullpen coach. He should have a good understanding of pitchers(something Tosca seemed to stuggle with)due to his catching background. He'll also have the respect of the position players as he was one. I don't think most people realize the great divide that exists inside of most clubhouses between these 2 camps.

-He's got experience as a manager in the minors.I think its one thing to be a coach,another to be the guy calling the shots.

-Being around this team the past few years he doesn't have a steep learning curve regarding their personalities,strengths,etc..

-I hate to say it, but he was a major leaguer and that seems to matter to todays modern athlete.

-Most reports describe him as being an easy going humourous sort. I really think the current clubhouse atmosphere seems tense,the players look to be tight and pressing. Hopefully he can get them to just relax.

-Most importantly he's J.P.'s guy. The 2 of them go way back as former room mates. If you believe as I do(obviously Bob Elliot disagrees) that the manager is there to implement the organizations plan, he's the man. I think communication between the G.M. and the manager is essential for the type of situation Toronto is in. So forget all these "name candidates" It'll be Gibson or if he struggles another guy from within.

-Lastly, anybody who can make it from the back-waters of Great Falls, Montana to the show ,has my respect.

Elliott: "The days of Whitey Herzog and Sparky Anderson and Dick Williams expounding in-game philosophies are over. A manager is not allowed to have a philosophy, whether you are Art Howe or Ken Macha working under Beane or Buck Martinez or Tosca under Ricciardi.

So, I guess Tony LaRussa, Dusty Baker, Felipe Alou, Buck Showalter, Jack McKeon, Bobby Cox, Larry Bowa, Joe Torre, Lou Pinella, and Ron Gardenhire are just extensions of their general managers.

Lucas, would JP hire any of those guys or would he want someone who follows his plan? I don't think any of the guys you mentioned would want to wear the handcuffs JP would put on them.

Re: Dierker.

Here are some stats regarding small-ball from his tenure in Houston. If someone can put them into context, it will help evaluate if he somone who is in-tune with the front office's way of thinking.

1997:
27 sacrifice bunts (non-pitchers)
171 SB/74 CS = 70% sucess rate

1998:
13 sacrifice bunts (non-pitchers)
155 SB/51 CS = 75%

1998:
27 sacrifice bunts (non-pitchers)
166 SB/75 CS = 69%

1998:
25 sacrifice bunts (non-pitchers)
155 SB/51 CS = 69%

2001:
30 sacrifice bunts (non-pitchers)
64 SB/49 CS = 56%

I also suspect that being a baseball columnist is a thankless job, especially when the team is going poorly. Spending night after night in a cavernously empty SkyDome must curdle the soul after a while.

I think this serves as a reasonable explanation, but not as an acceptable excuse. Why have some of us here remained reasonably positive? Because we're looking at a bigger picture. The Toronto Blue Jays have been a very bad team this year. That's not a point of debate, but that doesn't mean you have to dwell on it. Let's hear about the farm system. Let's hear about the emerging youngsters. Let's hear about how the 5-year plan still looks to be on track. Let's hear about the exciting possibilities for spending ~$12M this offseason.

I've been giving some thought to this last one, and it really is an interesting storyline. If the GM & The Playah were interested, I think you could fit Garciaparra into the 2005 team. How cool would that be? It's just a pipe dream, but it's a lot more interesting to consider than the details of the latest shellacking at the hands of the Mercenaries.

I would like to see the Jays hire Earl Weaver.
He could be a teacher for Gibbons for 2 years.
And I think I'd pay money to hear him answer callers questions on the radio with Wilner.

Spending night after night in a cavernously empty SkyDome must curdle the soul after a while.

If any of them don't like it, give me the job.

I concur. I paid the Jays $81 to sit in the Skydome every night and my only reward my score sheets.

I'd actually like the job running the scoreboard. I don't think the fellow at SkyDome is doing a good job.

And I think I'd pay money to hear him answer callers questions on the radio with Wilner.

You wouldn't be the only one -- The Fan would likely wind up paying quite a bit in fines.

I'm a first time Batersbox poster, but lifelong and devoted jays fan (so please mind any "rookie" mistake). I've also been a long time JP supporter, but watching the teams recent actions, has driven me to write my first post.

First, the trading of Phelps, was extremely dissapointing to me. We all can admit the frustrations watch Phelps struggle this season, but more so was seeing the treatment he received from the management staff. At the begining of each of the last 2 seasons, he was billed as the team's "1st basemen of the future", but in each seasons he was given a quick hook after early failures (this season, he received a slightly more of a grace period). How can a young player expect to develop, if he's constantly concerned that any mistake he makes will cost him his place in the lineup? Now, the great frustration comes from the inconsistent approach taken to other players ... namely Hinske. Both had remarkable years in 2002, and both have regressed in seasons to follow, but Phelps has outperformed Hinske offensively in each of those years:

Phelps:
2002 .309/.362/.562
2003 .268/.358/.470
2004 .237/.296/.417

Hinske:
2002 .279/.365/.481
2003 .243/.329/.437
2004 .256/.321/.386

Why has Hinske, especially after signing that lucractive long-term contract, never felt the pressure from management to develop and perform? Was he given more freedom because he is a "JP" pick vs. Phelps who was a draft pick from the previous regime? We'll never know, but for some odd reason Phelps fell out of favour with the team.

Which leads to my next point: the biggest dissapointment for me has been the general failure of this club to develop its core of younger players: Hudson, Henkse, Phelps, Woodward, Kershener and Lopez (to name a few). JP has always publicly stated that his plans to contend were not until the 2005/06 seasons, with development being the primary goal for the years leading up to them. So if development was the goal, then why have we seen veteran players like: Myers, Berg, Zaun & Menechino take precious playing time away from the younger players - were they not brought in to complement vs. compete with them? To me its more satisfy to see a young team with a vision, struggle and learn with hopes of competing in the future - then a team mixed with journeymen veterans teasing its fans with wildcard dreams and hopes of 90+ win seasons. When I find myself agreeing with Richard Griffen, thats when I know things have reach a low point (check his article in the Star on Jun. 26'04 "Jays trio gets cold shoulder")

Which is where the firing of Tosca comes into play. He was brought in for his abilities to teach and develop younger players, something we saw early on but then it seems he became too focused on the win/loss column. So with the recent medicore performance, he must face some of the blame. But how much at fault is JP with these development failures? The more I hear JP speak, the more its seems he was behind his manager with respect to these decisions.

Lucas, would JP hire any of those guys or would he want someone who follows his plan? I don't think any of the guys you mentioned would want to wear the handcuffs JP would put on them.

Don't bunt unless it's late and the game is close (i.e. tie at home, win on the road). What is so radical about that?

but Phelps has outperformed Hinske offensively in each of those years:

That's a bit of a distortion.

25 points of OBP > 31 points of SLG.

And Hinske put up that line facing _both_ LHP and RHP (he's got about 40% more plate appearances). Based on how he's fared against righties this year, Phelps would be hitting about .220 with over 100 K's if he had the same amount of playing time. And Hinske plays passable defense at a tough position. Phelps brings nothing to the table but his bat.

I'm no Hinske apologist -- he's had a pretty stinky season with the bat. But Phelps has been worse.

http://www.battersbox.ca/legal.shtml
I'm a first time Batersbox poster, but lifelong and devoted jays fan (so please mind any "rookie" mistake).

Welcome! Just one rookie mistake - Unless you really are Glenallen Hill, please choose a new handle. COMN for the Batter's Box Legal Page, specifically item #6 about impersonations. Thanks.

Jacko, do you really believe it is that simple?

A lot can be determined by fielding practice. Phelps had many chances to practice his first base skills; Hinske put in A LOT of time with Butterfield at third base. Hinske's work produced results and Phelps's didn't.

Hinske gets more playing time than Phelps because Hinske has a broader range of abilities. All Phelps can do is hit for power, sometimes (though when he does hit it, it goes one #@!#%#$ of a long way). Hinske runs well, is now a good fielder, draws walks, and has doubles power. He doesn't have a great arm, has only medium-range power, and doesn't hit for average, but players should be judged on what they can do, not on what they can't.

Also, if you dump a player, you have to decide on a replacement. The Jays don't really have a good third baseman behind Hinske in the high minors; Glenn Williams and Danny Solano are playing at AAA and AA right now. Whereas first basemen with middling power aren't that hard to find; if Crozier doesn't work out, J.P. can always go find two more like him. (Though I hope he goes out and finds somebody really good, but that's a separate discussion.)

Oops, I forgot - Hattig plays third, but he's not ready yet to take Hinske's job.

The question is why did Phelps deserve less AB's? Its hard to fault it against him. The fact that Hinske had regaular playing time whenever he was healthy is more the injustice than anything.

Health is a key issue. Phelps is known to have wonky knees and lately, a wonky back. Some (but not all) of his lost playing time this year can be attributed to that.

However, I'm firmly on your side when it comes to playing time, especially in the field. 5 years ago, Carlos Delgado was an awful defender at 1B, and now he's considered be a league average defender. It's a bit disingenious of the Jays to say "Phelps is no good at 1B" when they never gave him any playing time there.

Was Phelps really so awful at 1B during practice that he didn't earn any playing time in the field? I can't quite believe that someone who was once agile enough to play catcher doesn't have the ability to be a decent fielder at 1B.

Were the Jays afraid of pissing off their pitchers by putting an inferior defender out there? While healthy, Carlos "no I in team" Delgado might have had something to do with Phelps not playing 1B over the last 3 years.

Jacko, do you really believe it is that simple?

Yes.

Dean, can you help explain to me how it's more complicated?

jc

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1855838
Edgar Martinez has retired, effective immediately. COMN

"Hinske gets more playing time than Phelps because Hinske has a broader range of abilities ... Hinske runs well, is now a good fielder, draws walks, and has doubles power."

Not sure if that is totally accurate. Hinske's baserunning advantage is small considering the low value the Jays place on the "small-ball" offense. Hinkse may draw more walks, but Phelps has a comparable OBP. As for his "double power", its negated by Phelps' far greater power in general. Also, Phelps hits for a higher average (not so much so this year though). So offensively speaking, Phelps is at the very least comparable to Hinkse, if not better. (Defensive is difficult to judge since he's been DHing past 3 years).

So again, the question is why didn't Phelps get the opportunity to play through his struggles like Hinkse did? Giving Phelps the regular ABs for another full season, would have allowed for at least a fair assessment of his ability (and his trade value could not have sunken much lower at the end of the season than it has now), as opposed to now facing the possible scenario that he might develop into a major league hitter in another organization. And all of this was sacrificed so we could have the opportunity to see journey men veterans like: Myer, Zaun and Berg at DH instead. Not to knock them, cuz they've played well - but how does this help the future of this club in any way?!?

Jacko: it is a little strange how Phelps' career path similarly followed Delgado's: a converted catcher to 1B with a leathal bat, forced to DH cuz of an All-Star at 1B (Olerud in Delgado's case). Even more strange is Carlos' attitude to the situation. Not the first time I've heard that claim before.

And all of this was sacrificed so we could have the opportunity to see journey men veterans like: Myer, Zaun and Berg at DH instead. Not to knock them, cuz they've played well - but how does this help the future of this club in any way?!?

I agree. Tosca's insistence on playing journeymen over his young players has been infuriating this year. It takes be back to the days of Cito refusing to play Shawn Green, and instead sending guys like Orlando Merced and Jacob Brumfield out there.

BTW, I would like to see Hattig and Crozier called up now so we can see what they can do. And I have no issue with sitting Delgado a lot more in order to get them some playing time. The Jays need to prepare themselves for life without Carlos, and they need all the data on his possible replacements they can get.

Jacko: it is a little strange how Phelps' career path similarly followed Delgado's: a converted catcher to 1B with a lethal bat, forced to DH cuz of an All-Star at 1B (Olerud in Delgado's case). Even more strange is Carlos' attitude to the situation. Not the first time I've heard that claim before.

That's a very interesting comparison.

FWIW, I've always felt the Jays messed up by dicking Carlos around in 1994, and ultimately wasting 2 years (50 HR?) of his career in the minors.

Time will tell if Phelps will manage to adjust and start hitting righties again, but the Jays felt he wasn't going to be able to do it, so they decided to cut bait. I've always wondered if Phelps lost playing time because he was struggling, or if his struggles were because of a lack of consistent playing time.

Anyhow, Cleveland should be a good environment for him. They have some lefthanded thumpers (Hafner, Broussard) and needed some balance in their lineup.

Edgar Martinez has retired, effective immediately

Hate to see him go, but it was time. First full-time DH in the Hall of Fame, no question. Anyone who think the Jays have had a really bad season need only check out the debacle in Seattle.

"Tosca's insistence on playing journeymen over his young players has been infuriating this year."

So now the real question is: How much did JP support these moves?

Jonny German: Thanks for the welcome ... unfortunately I don't have a life threaten fear of spiders, so my apologise. I guess I'll answer to General Lee =)

What's funny about it is that if you talk to them one-on-one, they all love baseball and all hope and pray and wish and root for the Jays to do well, just like any other nutty fan.

At the risk of sounding rude again, I'm going to call bullshit on the second segment of that assertion.

I agree with SF. And if it turns out we're wrong, it's their responsibility to prove it.

I agree with SF.

At the risk of encouraging him, so do I. NFH, perhaps the only Bauxite more optimistic than me, hasn't met all the scribes yet. Some folks in the press box might prefer to cover a winning team, but definitely not all of them.

I would like to see Hattig and Crozier called up now

Jacko, they need Crozier in Syracuse until after the Olympics, then I'm sure we'll see him. What's your rush with Hattig? He'll need a full year in Triple-A; ETA is next September at the earliest.

Jacko, JP said earlier this year that Tosca was to implement his gameplan. Do you really think that Pinella, Larussa, Torre etc. would sign on to manage someone elses's game plan? If Pinella thinks that bunting in the 1st inning will help him win that particular game I'd love to be a fly on the wall when you as JP's representative would tell him that was not in JP's gameplan.

OK, you got me there, Coach, but

Some folks in the press box might prefer to cover a winning team, but definitely not all of them.

The some are not the some you'd expect, really.

It doesn't matter posting this in a JP lovefest, but as a Jay fan since Day One, it's sickening to see a punk like Ricciardi run this team into the ground. Face it guys, Moneyball is a charade, and handing over the keys to the kingdom to JP was the final nail in the coffin of the Toronto Gray Jays or whatever they call themselves now. Interest is at a rock bottom low in this town for baseball. Granted, Griffin is a bit of a knob, but Bob Elliott has forgotten more about baseball than most of you roto-rooters have ever leaned. I agree with Bob, put JP in the dugout and let him see what it's really like out there on a big league field.

Doesn't it bug you people to see our Boston-based GM sucking up to Boston sportswriters instead of even acknowledging and engaging the REAL Toronto fan base? The people want excitement and hope, not a shitload of walks. How's Luke Prokopec doing these days anyway?

Buh-bye.

Yeah, totally.

Bring back the GM from last year that won 86 games!!

Bob Elliott has forgotten more about baseball than most of you roto-rooters have ever leaned.

Then he should try remembering some of it.

Off-topic contest:

Name the only player to suit up for the Yankees, Blue Jays, Red Sox, and Orioles without going to Baseball-Reference.com.

He played for the:

• Jays in 1987 and 1988
  
• Yankees in 1979
  
• Red Sox from 1971 to 1975
  
• Orioles in 1986

Again, no cheating at B-Ref.

on Bob Elliott: He's suggesting it's JP who was driving Tosca to make all those mad pitching changes, saying this reliever has to face this hitter late in the game. I highly doubt that.

If it were up to JP, he'd have more match up-based pitching decisions. His major complaint on Tosca's use of the bullpen was that it was inconsistent and the improvement would be putting relievers in for shorter, more focused situations. I was floored when I heard that but I can see a bit of logic somewhere in there.

NFH wrote:
What's funny about it is that if you talk to them one-on-one, they all love baseball and all hope and pray and wish and root for the Jays to do well, just like any other nutty fan.


Dave Till responded:
I didn't know that - that's fascinating to discover. I offer two hypotheses, then:

1. Writers don't want to appear to be too syncophantic, hence there may be a tendency to bend over backwards to be critical.

2. To a certain extent, a sportswriter's job is to drum up interest in his columns and in the newspaper. It's more fun to find an entertaining "hook" for a story than to write tripe day after day.


Both reasonable, but let me propose the following hypothesis: old-fashioned jealousy. I think the job of GM, while obviously different, is not so fundamentally dissimilar from the job of sports columnist. They both watch games and pay attention to the general baseball scene and ultimately try to make non-obvious observations on the game and on its players -- of course one for the purpose of executing decisions, and one for the purpose of selling papers, but whatever. By way of comparision, I would say the job of field manager is basically dissimilar to that of columnist: for the columnist there is no equivalent of trying to extract consistent performance from high-salary, sometimes high-ego MLB talent, nor is there any real equivalent of the field manager's in-game decision-making responsibilities.

So back to the GM and the columnist. Now obviously one guy's observations and decisions have large, highly-visible impact. The other guy's get printed up and then mostly just become nothing. (Ok, no doubt any columnist has a certain dedicated readership who obtain some benefit in terms of entertainment/enlightenment, but clearly, the overall impact of columnist is vastly less than the overall impact of GM.) On a more personal level, to a guy like Griffin, a guy like JP has more visibility, obviously much more influence, probably knows a ton more about baseball themselves, has access to all kinds of league inside information and contacts, probably gets paid a lot more money, and to boot is quite possibly substantially younger. In this kind of situation, it's not surprising that an occasional columnist, perhaps harboring some lingering insecurity, does end up developing a persistent resentment towards the GM.

Disclaimer: I don't think the above resentment/jealousy dynamic applies to the majority of columnists out there.

The people want excitement and hope, not a shitload of walks.

Yeah, I can't stand those friggin' Yankees who walk all the time.

RJ, just in case you're not a troll, I'll respond to one of your more bizarre comments:

Doesn't it bug you people to see our Boston-based GM sucking up to Boston sportswriters instead of even acknowledging and engaging the REAL Toronto fan base?

J.P. does engage the Toronto fan base. I don't know what you're going on about, but either this is a really nutty troll or you're new to the site. Search the archives for our Chasing Steinbrenner book signing for a great example of J.P. connecting with the fans.