Part 8: Win totals - Mercenaries 6, Blue Jays 1
A. Rios rf
F. Catalanotto dh
V. Wells cf
C. Delgado 1b
G. Zaun c
E. Hinske 3b
G. Gross lf
D. Berg 2b
C. Woodward ss
Huh. I thought Tosca would want Menechino's bat in there somewhere.
F. Catalanotto dh
V. Wells cf
C. Delgado 1b
G. Zaun c
E. Hinske 3b
G. Gross lf
D. Berg 2b
C. Woodward ss
Huh. I thought Tosca would want Menechino's bat in there somewhere.
ok i know i said jp was going to be on yesterday and he wasn't but jerry just said that jp will be on during the 3rd and 4th innings today.
also, i don't know if anyone else heard it but a yankee commentator was just on with jerry (not the same one as yesterday). he said that the blue jays could contend if they were willing to spend the money necessary. what a revolutionary this guy is. does he know nothing of the blue jays situation?
also, i don't know if anyone else heard it but a yankee commentator was just on with jerry (not the same one as yesterday). he said that the blue jays could contend if they were willing to spend the money necessary. what a revolutionary this guy is. does he know nothing of the blue jays situation?
he said that the blue jays could contend if they were willing to spend the money necessary
How insightful, isnt that true of pretty well any team? With an unlimited supply of money, any team can be made into a contender.
How insightful, isnt that true of pretty well any team? With an unlimited supply of money, any team can be made into a contender.
Okay, after the rant I just posted in the "Whither the Yankees?" thread, I will say this:
I admire your thoroughness in continuing to use the term "Mercenaries" after two days of warnings and failer. Of course, with Job Lieber on the hill today, I think a short-series two-of-three is just fine.
I admire your thoroughness in continuing to use the term "Mercenaries" after two days of warnings and failer. Of course, with Job Lieber on the hill today, I think a short-series two-of-three is just fine.
I will continue it until the Mercenaries' payroll is less than 2 times the major league median.
Well, that was fun. Someone tell me when the Jays get out of New York.
So, anyone else going to the Argos game today?
So, anyone else going to the Argos game today?
Robert, if you're determined not to enjoy games involving the Yankees, as you've been opining for moths, that's your right, but must you pompously inflict your selfrighteousness on the rest of us?
ahhhhh...nothing like planning to spend an afternoon watching the Jays take on the Merc's, finishing a little housework, tuning in the the bottom of the first with chips and drink, and not really feeling like watching the rest of the game anymore.
Oh how I long for the days when the luxury tax will actually influence this team in some remote possible way. Lousy selig. IM IN A GLASS CASE OF EMOTION!! (sorry, just saw anchorman last night)
Oh how I long for the days when the luxury tax will actually influence this team in some remote possible way. Lousy selig. IM IN A GLASS CASE OF EMOTION!! (sorry, just saw anchorman last night)
"... but must you pompously inflict your selfrighteousness on the rest of us?"
Yes.
Yes.
Well, at least you're up front about being obnoxious.
Is it self-righteousness if the belief is held by a large majority of baseball fans?
must you pompously inflict your selfrighteousness on the rest of us?
Speak for yourself, I dont feel inflicted.
Speak for yourself, I dont feel inflicted.
That was a pretty nice turn by Woodward and Berg.
Yeah, in the words of Horatio Sans "He speaks for all of us..."
He hasn't said anything thats not true, really, and is not annoying. But a helpful medium to vent our frustration at the bane of MLB.
He hasn't said anything thats not true, really, and is not annoying. But a helpful medium to vent our frustration at the bane of MLB.
jp will be on the radio in mere moments for those of you watching on tv.
For those watching on TV, JP is on his way to join the radio crew.
That was a pretty nice turn by Woodward and Berg.
I'm not watching the game, but I did check the game log, and I see that the Yanks have like 4 infield hits through the first couple of innings. With that infield, I guess I can see why.
I'm not watching the game, but I did check the game log, and I see that the Yanks have like 4 infield hits through the first couple of innings. With that infield, I guess I can see why.
http://www.thegamelive.com/baseballmlb.html#tor
Pistol, COMN.
Pistol, COMN.
Just saw Anchorman last night myself... funny flick... That 4 part duet was the highlight I must say... Ah yes and the MLB luxury tax system has an IQ approaching 48...
Fair enough. It would seem I'm in a minority. I would take issue with this, however:
He hasn't said anything thats not true
given that the entirety of the joke is calling the Yankees 'Mercenaries.' Fine, the Yanks have an extremely high payroll. Who the hell is a fan of any professional sports team to call a specific group of pro ball players mercenaries? Either they're all mercenaries, and the Yanks happen to have the highest paid of them, or the term's an idiotic hyperbole. No one, including the players on the Jays, is in this entirely for the love of the game.
As I say, if people get a kick out of Robert doggedly posting the same snide joke about the team he swore he'd ignore all season every time they play the Jays, well, there's no disputing taste. And I like seeing the Yanks mocked. I just like seeing the mocker making some effort.
He hasn't said anything thats not true
given that the entirety of the joke is calling the Yankees 'Mercenaries.' Fine, the Yanks have an extremely high payroll. Who the hell is a fan of any professional sports team to call a specific group of pro ball players mercenaries? Either they're all mercenaries, and the Yanks happen to have the highest paid of them, or the term's an idiotic hyperbole. No one, including the players on the Jays, is in this entirely for the love of the game.
As I say, if people get a kick out of Robert doggedly posting the same snide joke about the team he swore he'd ignore all season every time they play the Jays, well, there's no disputing taste. And I like seeing the Yanks mocked. I just like seeing the mocker making some effort.
I still cant think of the "newsfight" without giggling. And yes, Brick does have a lot in common with selig.
JP not saying anything revolutionary on the radio. He's going to look at the budget next year to see if theres room for Carlos. Next year he wants to spend money on big bats and bullpen help, and bring up alot of youngsters.
JP not saying anything revolutionary on the radio. He's going to look at the budget next year to see if theres room for Carlos. Next year he wants to spend money on big bats and bullpen help, and bring up alot of youngsters.
Ah geez its blown open already... this is not very fun to watch...
Best one liner... and I'm prolly gonna mess up the quote...
It works all the time, 60% of the time...
Bwahahahahaha!
It works all the time, 60% of the time...
Bwahahahahaha!
summary of JPs comments on Delgado/1B 2005:
- We'll sit down at the end of the year and see what our budget is
- Dont know what Delgado is expecting
- We can't afford to pay a single player $10 million or more, need to spread the money around.
- All it takes is one team to say "we want that guy" to drive up his price
- Doesn't think he'll get as much money as Vlad but you never know
- Jays will be looking to add a couple bats in the off-season either through trade of free agency.
- Dont rule out Crozier but its unlikely he'll be the fulltime 1B next year.
- We'll sit down at the end of the year and see what our budget is
- Dont know what Delgado is expecting
- We can't afford to pay a single player $10 million or more, need to spread the money around.
- All it takes is one team to say "we want that guy" to drive up his price
- Doesn't think he'll get as much money as Vlad but you never know
- Jays will be looking to add a couple bats in the off-season either through trade of free agency.
- Dont rule out Crozier but its unlikely he'll be the fulltime 1B next year.
ahhh what a crapshoot the draft is... Crozier could be our starting 3-spot 1-bagger right side of the infield guy... drafted in round 42... gotta love it.
- We can't afford to pay a single player $10 million or more, need to spread the money around.
So this was implemented after Doc signed?
So this was implemented after Doc signed?
Well... Maybe being on the air does that to people... but hey, at least he didn't say anything about carlos hitting a 4-run triple :)...
Well Doc is now on the DL, and the Jays dont have the ability to replace him. That could be a good reason why JP is against giving any other single player that big of a contract.
This is the lowpoint of my year:
Berg at 2B
Pat Tabler and his "tree-mendous"
TSN update guy and his "You-Keel-iss"
Rod Black analyzing that the "Moneyball strategy of hitting home runs" (!?!) is not working
This is rock bottom: nearing 20 games under .500.
It can only get better, right?
Those black uniform tops aren't helping either. You can't read the 'Jays' on them! I really hope they dump them next year. A team called the Blue Jays should not be wearing black.
Berg at 2B
Pat Tabler and his "tree-mendous"
TSN update guy and his "You-Keel-iss"
Rod Black analyzing that the "Moneyball strategy of hitting home runs" (!?!) is not working
This is rock bottom: nearing 20 games under .500.
It can only get better, right?
Those black uniform tops aren't helping either. You can't read the 'Jays' on them! I really hope they dump them next year. A team called the Blue Jays should not be wearing black.
We can't afford to pay a single player $10 million or more, need to spread the money around.
I think Halladay is the exception. What the NFL calls the "franchise player."
I think Halladay is the exception. What the NFL calls the "franchise player."
A team called the Blue Jays should not be wearing black.
No, no, it's Jays now. Just Jays. ;)
No, no, it's Jays now. Just Jays. ;)
As I say, if people get a kick out of Robert doggedly posting the same snide joke ...
It's not intended to be a joke. I'm responsible for road game threads and this is how I've chosen to do it.
It's not intended to be a joke. I'm responsible for road game threads and this is how I've chosen to do it.
Black and Tabler are approaching McCarver in terms of sucking up to Jeter. It's driving me mad.
Thomas, I just turned on the radio. I can't stand the TSN guys either.
They'd be fiiiiinnnneeee without him... I think anyone could do better altering that usage of 13 mil/yr
I think the line was something like "Sixty percent of the time it works every time. ". Just saw it last night so the line's still fresh.
The black jersey's are actually the only one of the three I like this year. Although some blue piping would have been nice. This team is way over due for a retro day. Dust off the baby blue's man.
The black jersey's are actually the only one of the three I like this year. Although some blue piping would have been nice. This team is way over due for a retro day. Dust off the baby blue's man.
Oh yeah, I think it cleared the first deck of stands in left centre...
WARNING: Charlie Steiner is coming up on the radio.
What's worse, Black/Tabler or Steiner's homerism?
What's worse, Black/Tabler or Steiner's homerism?
I'm so frustrated right now!!!!!!! Arghhhhh
JP has been given a free pass and that pass ends next season. Next year will be the first time he has payroll flexibility and it's put up or shut up time. The Jays have regressed BADLY this season. The Jays are one of the worst teams in the league. I know they have suffered through injuries but it's part of the game and there are other teams i.e. Rangers who have had more injury problems yet they're competing for a playoff spot after trading away their best player and lowering their payroll.
I know JP says he has a 5 year plan to be in the playoffs (or at least compete for a spot) but at this point I don't see it happening because he will be bringing up more kids and they will make rookie mistakes.
If JP doesn't deliver a vastly improved club next season I want to see him get canned.
The product that has been delivered this season has been a slap in the face for the majority of Jays fans.
JP has been given a free pass and that pass ends next season. Next year will be the first time he has payroll flexibility and it's put up or shut up time. The Jays have regressed BADLY this season. The Jays are one of the worst teams in the league. I know they have suffered through injuries but it's part of the game and there are other teams i.e. Rangers who have had more injury problems yet they're competing for a playoff spot after trading away their best player and lowering their payroll.
I know JP says he has a 5 year plan to be in the playoffs (or at least compete for a spot) but at this point I don't see it happening because he will be bringing up more kids and they will make rookie mistakes.
If JP doesn't deliver a vastly improved club next season I want to see him get canned.
The product that has been delivered this season has been a slap in the face for the majority of Jays fans.
Ok, does Rod Black call Chris Woodward "Woodie" because he thinks it's his name, or because he's completely ignorant to baseball?
I think JP deserves at least 5 more years. His drafts will bring us back to the top.
I'm not watching or listening to the game, and only have half an eye on the ESPN updates and Da Box, but why is ...
IP H R ER BB SO HR PC-ST ERA
M Batista 4 9 8 8 1 3 2 81-47
... still in the game?
IP H R ER BB SO HR PC-ST ERA
M Batista 4 9 8 8 1 3 2 81-47
... still in the game?
I think Tosca is conceeding this game to the Merc's and wants to give the bullpen some much needed rest. Well, just a guess.
If JP doesn't deliver a vastly improved club next season I want to see him get canned.
Considering a lot of people thought the 04 Jays would be competing for a playoff spot this year, I hardly think that JP should be blamed for the disaster this team has become.
If anyone is going to take the fall for this, it's Tosca, fairly or unfairly.
It's true, the Jays have had injuries, and the loss of Halladay is a big blow, but the problem this year has been the offense, which is basically the same as last year's - you know, the one that scored the third most runs in baseball. Hardly surprising that JP didn't think he needed to do much with it.
I think Tosca's nearly run out of rope. The offense is healthy now, and *still* the team isn't scoring. If he survives the season, the team will be expected to start much better next season than they did this April. If they don't Tosca's gone.
Considering a lot of people thought the 04 Jays would be competing for a playoff spot this year, I hardly think that JP should be blamed for the disaster this team has become.
If anyone is going to take the fall for this, it's Tosca, fairly or unfairly.
It's true, the Jays have had injuries, and the loss of Halladay is a big blow, but the problem this year has been the offense, which is basically the same as last year's - you know, the one that scored the third most runs in baseball. Hardly surprising that JP didn't think he needed to do much with it.
I think Tosca's nearly run out of rope. The offense is healthy now, and *still* the team isn't scoring. If he survives the season, the team will be expected to start much better next season than they did this April. If they don't Tosca's gone.
Mick, he's really not pitching ALL that badly. There have been a lot of crap hits-the first inning for instance had 2 infield hits, a HBP (that BARELY nipped ARod), and then a well-hit granny. Sheffield smoked that HR obviously, but that's about it for shots. And he's taking one for the team as the bullpen's been run down the last few days.
Forget third, anyone think the Jays wont finish last this year? I still have hope for that.
[i]We can't afford to pay a single player $10 million or more, need to spread the money around.[/i]
That's a problem. We need front line pitching help, badly. I know most people here feel we're set next year with Halladay-Batista-Lilly-Bush-Miller/Towers, but I don't feel anywhere near confident. Batista's K:BB rate is terrible, and he'll be 34 and 35 over the course of his deal. Lilly gives up a ton of walks. Bush is still a rookie. Towers is nothing more than a #5 starter who will get hit around more times than not.
It'll be a cycle. Next year we'll spend so much time improving our hitting, that our pitching will suck to the high heavens. Wanna bet?
- Jays will be looking to add a couple bats in the off-season either through trade of free agency.
Anyone know which hitters Oakland is willing to give up in the off-season?
That's a problem. We need front line pitching help, badly. I know most people here feel we're set next year with Halladay-Batista-Lilly-Bush-Miller/Towers, but I don't feel anywhere near confident. Batista's K:BB rate is terrible, and he'll be 34 and 35 over the course of his deal. Lilly gives up a ton of walks. Bush is still a rookie. Towers is nothing more than a #5 starter who will get hit around more times than not.
It'll be a cycle. Next year we'll spend so much time improving our hitting, that our pitching will suck to the high heavens. Wanna bet?
- Jays will be looking to add a couple bats in the off-season either through trade of free agency.
Anyone know which hitters Oakland is willing to give up in the off-season?
Ron, I gotta take issue with your post:
JP has been given a free pass and that pass ends next season. Next year will be the first time he has payroll flexibility and it's put up or shut up time.
The Jays have regressed BADLY this season. The Jays are one of the worst teams in the league.
Could this be because they have 40% of their payroll tied up in one player hitting .230? You just said next year is the first he can spend his payroll the way he wants.
I know they have suffered through injuries but it's part of the game and there are other teams i.e. Rangers who have had more injury problems yet they're competing for a playoff spot after trading away their best player and lowering their payroll.
Have the Rangers had worse injury problems? I don't think they've lost their 3 and 4 hitters for a month and their Cy Young winner for most of the year so far. And I doubt the Rangers payroll is low -- they're still paying for ARod, remember.
I know JP says he has a 5 year plan to be in the playoffs (or at least compete for a spot) but at this point I don't see it happening because he will be bringing up more kids and they will make rookie mistakes.
Remember Rios' rookie mistakes? Yeah, me neither.
If JP doesn't deliver a vastly improved club next season I want to see him get canned.
The product that has been delivered this season has been a slap in the face for the majority of Jays fans.
The majority of casual fans, maybe. I don't want to speak for the real fans, but I think most of them understand how this team is very close to being very good.
Maybe this team will not finish in third place this year. So what if it did? Third place is nothing in baseball, and it's not like they were going to beat the Yanks and Red Sox anyway. Calling up Rios, Gross, and Bush (and Adams in September) like J.P. has (and will), at worst, sacrifices a meaningless season for what will be a good team in the future. At best, the Jays go on a little tear and end up in third, giving the rookies confidence that they can turn things around and become a winning team.
I haven't felt slapped in the face at all. I understand that a five year plan does not take three years to work.
JP has been given a free pass and that pass ends next season. Next year will be the first time he has payroll flexibility and it's put up or shut up time.
The Jays have regressed BADLY this season. The Jays are one of the worst teams in the league.
Could this be because they have 40% of their payroll tied up in one player hitting .230? You just said next year is the first he can spend his payroll the way he wants.
I know they have suffered through injuries but it's part of the game and there are other teams i.e. Rangers who have had more injury problems yet they're competing for a playoff spot after trading away their best player and lowering their payroll.
Have the Rangers had worse injury problems? I don't think they've lost their 3 and 4 hitters for a month and their Cy Young winner for most of the year so far. And I doubt the Rangers payroll is low -- they're still paying for ARod, remember.
I know JP says he has a 5 year plan to be in the playoffs (or at least compete for a spot) but at this point I don't see it happening because he will be bringing up more kids and they will make rookie mistakes.
Remember Rios' rookie mistakes? Yeah, me neither.
If JP doesn't deliver a vastly improved club next season I want to see him get canned.
The product that has been delivered this season has been a slap in the face for the majority of Jays fans.
The majority of casual fans, maybe. I don't want to speak for the real fans, but I think most of them understand how this team is very close to being very good.
Maybe this team will not finish in third place this year. So what if it did? Third place is nothing in baseball, and it's not like they were going to beat the Yanks and Red Sox anyway. Calling up Rios, Gross, and Bush (and Adams in September) like J.P. has (and will), at worst, sacrifices a meaningless season for what will be a good team in the future. At best, the Jays go on a little tear and end up in third, giving the rookies confidence that they can turn things around and become a winning team.
I haven't felt slapped in the face at all. I understand that a five year plan does not take three years to work.
I know at the beginning of the season people predicted Delgado and Wells would drop in production and that would be picked up by Phelps, Hinske, and Woodward.
Remember the Jays won 86 games last season with one starting pitcher and no bullpen. It was realistic to think they would improve this season.
The Jays have recieved solid starting pitching this season and the defence has been solid but the bats and bullpen has been a huge letdown.
I don't use injuries as excuses. When the team was healthy they stunk. And like I pointed out yesterday ever since Wells and Carlos came back the offence has dipped in production.
For us hardcore fans we will stick around, but what about the casual fan? I believe the Jays have the worst drop off in attendance this season.
Somebody (or several) has to pay the price for this mess.
Remember the Jays won 86 games last season with one starting pitcher and no bullpen. It was realistic to think they would improve this season.
The Jays have recieved solid starting pitching this season and the defence has been solid but the bats and bullpen has been a huge letdown.
I don't use injuries as excuses. When the team was healthy they stunk. And like I pointed out yesterday ever since Wells and Carlos came back the offence has dipped in production.
For us hardcore fans we will stick around, but what about the casual fan? I believe the Jays have the worst drop off in attendance this season.
Somebody (or several) has to pay the price for this mess.
If we have a top 5 pick in next year's draft, and we draft a Russ Adams/Aaron Hill clone, I'm finished as a fan of J.P. Ricciardi. I mean that.
Gotta ask this ...
Let's say the not-entirely-improbable series of events happens as follows:
- Expos leave Montreal
- NHL goes on strike, embittering fans who, in the wake of Canada's stunning Olympic gold medal in baseball, turn to never-had-a-labor-problem MLB. The entire nation turns to the Jays as Canada's Team.
- Looking to get out from a losing proposition, current Jays ownership sells the team to a random Texas Billionaire, named Mark Ross Cuban-Perot.
- Negotiating in US dollars, MRC-P signs Delgado and Wells to long-term deals, acquires (these are all real potential free agents) Carlos Beltran, Edgar Renteria, Magglio Ordonez, Brad Radke, John Smoltz, Eric Milton and Mike Matheney.
- To complement the Halladay-Milton-Radke-Lilly rotation, the new owner swaps Miguel Batista, Alexis Rios and Gabe Gross (and, oh, what the hell, Eric Crozier) for Barry Zito and Canadian Rich Harden. In fact, Lilly moves to the bullpen to become the league's best long man.
Now, after all the outcry about dealing still-inproven young potential stars, the Jays go out with this team, win 109 games and the AL East, six ahead of Boston and 11 ahead of New York, the three best records in the A.l. (Cleveland wins the Central witha 77-85 mark.)
I ... just ... bet ...
At that point ...
Nobody in Toronto is tsk-ing the mercenary nature of the Jays.
Of course, it's not going to happen like that. I'm just sayin' ... if it did ... the tone here would be very different.
Let's say the not-entirely-improbable series of events happens as follows:
- Expos leave Montreal
- NHL goes on strike, embittering fans who, in the wake of Canada's stunning Olympic gold medal in baseball, turn to never-had-a-labor-problem MLB. The entire nation turns to the Jays as Canada's Team.
- Looking to get out from a losing proposition, current Jays ownership sells the team to a random Texas Billionaire, named Mark Ross Cuban-Perot.
- Negotiating in US dollars, MRC-P signs Delgado and Wells to long-term deals, acquires (these are all real potential free agents) Carlos Beltran, Edgar Renteria, Magglio Ordonez, Brad Radke, John Smoltz, Eric Milton and Mike Matheney.
- To complement the Halladay-Milton-Radke-Lilly rotation, the new owner swaps Miguel Batista, Alexis Rios and Gabe Gross (and, oh, what the hell, Eric Crozier) for Barry Zito and Canadian Rich Harden. In fact, Lilly moves to the bullpen to become the league's best long man.
Now, after all the outcry about dealing still-inproven young potential stars, the Jays go out with this team, win 109 games and the AL East, six ahead of Boston and 11 ahead of New York, the three best records in the A.l. (Cleveland wins the Central witha 77-85 mark.)
I ... just ... bet ...
At that point ...
Nobody in Toronto is tsk-ing the mercenary nature of the Jays.
Of course, it's not going to happen like that. I'm just sayin' ... if it did ... the tone here would be very different.
Forget third, anyone think the Jays wont finish last this year? I still have hope for that.
Five games back of the Orioles & D-Rays before this massacre. Both Tampa & Baltimore are winning now, so it looks to get better before it gets worse.
Five games back of the Orioles & D-Rays before this massacre. Both Tampa & Baltimore are winning now, so it looks to get better before it gets worse.
I agree with that comment Scott. If we have a high pick, we better get some high-end type potential. Hill and Adams are good players, but it appears that they have limited potential.
Nobody in Toronto is tsk-ing the mercenary nature of the Jays.
You forgot everybody's favourite local Star columnist.
You forgot everybody's favourite local Star columnist.
But if Mark Ross Cuban-Perot kept it up for the majority of the 30+ years he owned the team, you'd see plenty of talk about the mercenary nature of the Jays.
I'm not in New York and I don't expect New Yorkers to be tsk-ing the mercenary nature of the Mercenaries.
The market for my idea is everyone who is NOT a fan of the Mercenaries. Or maybe we should all become fans of the Mercenaries - wouldn't that be great for major league baseball.
I'm not in New York and I don't expect New Yorkers to be tsk-ing the mercenary nature of the Mercenaries.
The market for my idea is everyone who is NOT a fan of the Mercenaries. Or maybe we should all become fans of the Mercenaries - wouldn't that be great for major league baseball.
Two more cheese-ball hits (or classic Yankee hits as I like to call 'em) for the Yanks if anyone's still watching the game. Batista's really taking one for the team-and has been fairly effective as of late too.
No -- did I miss something?
Check out the highights of the 1994 World Series.
Check out the highights of the 1994 World Series.
Sure thing, Keith. Here's the link to those highlights.
That's why I was asked if it was a joke. 'Yes' would have been a more illuminating answer than 'No' - and would have spared us this exchange.
Why can't KLigt do that in a close game???? Strand the bases loaded with none out? Damn.
Sorry, Keith. I assumed you were being as painfully tongue-in-cheek as I was.
Somebody want to e-mail Cuban. Better yet why not send him a letter from Battersbox pleading for his help. I don't know about you guys but "I have a dream".
No worries. I'd hate to be the one that begins the flamewar that always starts here after a loss!
I kind of admire that about this place, you come in after a win and everything's peachy, come after a loss and it's sniper city. A lot of passion here...
I've given up on today's game and am now saving myself for Sunday Night Baseball.
I'm serious when I said I feel this game is rock bottom. At least with the injuries we had an excuse.
As for Tosca, someone wondered if he'd get canned early next season. He'll never get that far. His contract is up at the end of this year. I'm sure if JP thought bringing in a new manager would make any difference for this year he'd have made a move already. But as money is tight - he doesn't wanna pay Tosca and another manger. There's no way Tosca gets a contract extention. Then when you fire him in April/May you not only handicap your new manager, you also have to pay two managers all year.
Tosca's finished.
I kind of admire that about this place, you come in after a win and everything's peachy, come after a loss and it's sniper city. A lot of passion here...
I've given up on today's game and am now saving myself for Sunday Night Baseball.
I'm serious when I said I feel this game is rock bottom. At least with the injuries we had an excuse.
As for Tosca, someone wondered if he'd get canned early next season. He'll never get that far. His contract is up at the end of this year. I'm sure if JP thought bringing in a new manager would make any difference for this year he'd have made a move already. But as money is tight - he doesn't wanna pay Tosca and another manger. There's no way Tosca gets a contract extention. Then when you fire him in April/May you not only handicap your new manager, you also have to pay two managers all year.
Tosca's finished.
I'm concerned by the lack of power and the amount of errors Adams has at AAA. The pitching in the majors is vastly improved when compared to AAA and that worries me.
The more and more I think about the Jays in the present and the future the more depressed I get. I'm heading outside to take in the sun and chill.
The more and more I think about the Jays in the present and the future the more depressed I get. I'm heading outside to take in the sun and chill.
Okay... so we sign all the good free agents... and Mike Matheny?
One of those things is not like the other.
One of those things is not like the other.
If the Jays signed every good free agent out there I very much doubt we'd refuse to recognise that our payroll is massive (probably comparable to the Yankees at that point) and an enormous reason for our success.
Ugh...Vernon swings at three bad pitches. Why give him a fastball if he'll swing at that garbage? I hope the league hasn't, in Phelps-like fashion, begun to figure him out a little (yes, I realize Vernon's far better-and is still hitting ~.290, but those swings worry me).
Yeah, Paul, I know, but he's the best catcher on the market this off-season, unless I missed someone.
I very much doubt we'd refuse to recognise that our payroll is massive
Of course not. My point is that you wouldn't mind, either. There'd be all kinds of arguments about how the market allows players to move where they want, how winning engenders winning, blah blah. All the things you hear in the NYC media right now.
Of course not. My point is that you wouldn't mind, either. There'd be all kinds of arguments about how the market allows players to move where they want, how winning engenders winning, blah blah. All the things you hear in the NYC media right now.
Sorry, I seemed to misinterpret your post to say that you thought Jays fans would do that very thing.
Tim Wakefield allowed six homers to the Tigers today to tie a modern major league baseball record.
Tim Wakefield allowed six homers to the Tigers today to tie a modern major league baseball record.
I'd say our disappointment doesn't equal the Red Sox. Sure the Sox are still in it, but they're fading.
All Epstein has shown is that he's really good at making headlines, making the big waves, to little result. And is anyone just disgusted at how it's the Red Sox who bellyache the most about the Yankees payroll... the Red Sox have the #2 payroll for crying out loud! Or how about when Florida won the World Series last year. Their papers went on about how it wasn't fair because they didn't appreciate it as much as Bostonians would. The Boston Red Sox are losers and I hate them and their fans.
Theo Epstein has done little to impress me. It's general managing via tabloid newspaper. FIRE GRADY LITTLE: done. TRADE NOMAR: done. He's in deep when the Red Sox don't make the post-season (I don't see it happening, 3 teams in the AL West are better than the Red Sox).
Completely incidentally: I had a dream last night the Theo traded Youkilis and Manny Ramirez to the Jays for Hinske and Vernon Wells. (In the dream he paid about half of Manny's remaining contract.)
All Epstein has shown is that he's really good at making headlines, making the big waves, to little result. And is anyone just disgusted at how it's the Red Sox who bellyache the most about the Yankees payroll... the Red Sox have the #2 payroll for crying out loud! Or how about when Florida won the World Series last year. Their papers went on about how it wasn't fair because they didn't appreciate it as much as Bostonians would. The Boston Red Sox are losers and I hate them and their fans.
Theo Epstein has done little to impress me. It's general managing via tabloid newspaper. FIRE GRADY LITTLE: done. TRADE NOMAR: done. He's in deep when the Red Sox don't make the post-season (I don't see it happening, 3 teams in the AL West are better than the Red Sox).
Completely incidentally: I had a dream last night the Theo traded Youkilis and Manny Ramirez to the Jays for Hinske and Vernon Wells. (In the dream he paid about half of Manny's remaining contract.)
The Red Sox and Patriots fans are the worst, most annoying and most insufferable fans anywhere in sports-I hear ya there Keith.
http://me.woot.net
Completely incidentally: I had a dream last night the Theo traded Youkilis and Manny Ramirez to the Jays for Hinske and Vernon Wells.
Add that to the dream I had a little while ago that Apple opened the iTunes Music Store in Canada, and we are potentially the most boring 1-2 punch in Canada.
Completely incidentally: I had a dream last night the Theo traded Youkilis and Manny Ramirez to the Jays for Hinske and Vernon Wells.
Add that to the dream I had a little while ago that Apple opened the iTunes Music Store in Canada, and we are potentially the most boring 1-2 punch in Canada.
Tim Wakefield allowed six homers to the Tigers today to tie a modern major league baseball record.
And he still won the game.
And he still won the game.
To be fair to Theo, he wasn't exactly handed desirable contracts and personalities.
Ok optimists, give me something that I can be optimistic about for next year. JP better be the best drafter in MLB history.
http://homepage.mac.com/pblake/webpages/iblog/B476390718/index.html
As both a Jay's AND a lifelong Red Sox fan (going back to the Ted Williams days when I was a kid) I'm feeling a little bruised by Dr. Zarco's post. But, WTF, life will go on. COMN to read this old phart's take on the Jays along with my predictions for the balance of the year.
As both a Jay's AND a lifelong Red Sox fan (going back to the Ted Williams days when I was a kid) I'm feeling a little bruised by Dr. Zarco's post. But, WTF, life will go on. COMN to read this old phart's take on the Jays along with my predictions for the balance of the year.
Hehe, sorry Paddy. By your classy response to an insult you've already proved yourself more mature than most Sox fans I've come in contact with. Must be 'cause you're a Jays fan too (and Mariners and Cubs?? that's a lot of teams).
Tosca fired.... I just assumed I heard wrong. This kooky. Whats to gain from firing him now when the season's done?
Gibbons is new coach? Whats happening??
Gibbons is new coach? Whats happening??
John Gibbons has taken his place till the end of the season
Wow. I suppose that ends that debate. Kinda weird since JP was just on the radio a few hours ago-he clearly must have known what he was going to do. I wonder what he would have said had Jerry asked him about it.
Wow just heard Tosca was fired.
I mentioned heads were going to roll today ... and look what happens!
I mentioned heads were going to roll today ... and look what happens!
I dont like this move at all. The season is over. Nothing worse can happen. Why disgrace Carlos like this? Just let him run out the season and "not renew his contract". Not liking this at all...
It was going to be done anyway, so why not do it now? Tosca wasn't getting anything out of his players and it was obvious a change was needed. I am not upset by this move. Let's just hope J.P. brings in a guy who can teach these guys how to win.
Im not saying Carlos didnt deserve to be fired, but the opportunity was wasted at the all star break. This season is done, and Carlos contract is up at the end of the year. Why attach the label of "fired" to him rather than "not renewed" and make it that much harder for him to find work. A little loyalty should have been showed. The time to fire him as a month and half ago, not now when it doesnt matter.
I agree with Mike, might as well get it done. His departure was inevitable.
maybe a post olympic hire will be made, that would please the fans, and might just be a good hire...not sure Whitt fits JP's style though.
I'm a bit suprised this move was made this soon. I figured they might do this with a little time left in the season, like what happened with Cito, but I didn't think Tosca would bite the bullet this soon. I wonder if they potentially are giving Gibbons an audition as manager, to see if he can make an impression. Gibbons would certainly get on well with the rest of the coaching staff.
I just hope we don't see a wholesale change in the coaching staff with a new manager. I think Butterfield, Patterson and the rest of them appear to be a pretty good coaching staff, and if we hire a new manager and have to bring in a bunch of his guys, we may suffer losses on the coaching end of the equation.
I just hope we don't see a wholesale change in the coaching staff with a new manager. I think Butterfield, Patterson and the rest of them appear to be a pretty good coaching staff, and if we hire a new manager and have to bring in a bunch of his guys, we may suffer losses on the coaching end of the equation.
Im not saying Carlos didnt deserve to be fired, but the opportunity was wasted at the all star break.
Except that it's kinda socially awkward to fire a guy while he's coaching at the All-Star game.
Except that it's kinda socially awkward to fire a guy while he's coaching at the All-Star game.
This should have happened earlier. I wonder if today's game really did make JP blow a fuse. It'd be nice to see Molitor as coach next year, but I'm worried that might be nostalgia taking over me.
Why do joe blow's try to corner Wilner when its obvious they have no idea what they're talking about? These guys crack me up. I'd listen to an hour long jays talk everyday.
Why do joe blow's try to corner Wilner when its obvious they have no idea what they're talking about? These guys crack me up. I'd listen to an hour long jays talk everyday.
I would say this firing came from higher up than JP
http://homepage.mac.com/pblake/webpages/iblog/B476390718/index.html
I'm of mixed feelings about Carlos' firing. On the whole, I reckon he's done as well as anyone with the talent he had to work with and injuries permitted. Okay, maybe his bullpen management was open to question but there are few things managers do more open to second guessing than that task. I agree with Jobu's point about the shabbiness of "firing" vs. "not renewed". In any case, I want to thank Carlos for doing his best with a not brilliant bunch and wish him good luck in finding a new job.
I'm of mixed feelings about Carlos' firing. On the whole, I reckon he's done as well as anyone with the talent he had to work with and injuries permitted. Okay, maybe his bullpen management was open to question but there are few things managers do more open to second guessing than that task. I agree with Jobu's point about the shabbiness of "firing" vs. "not renewed". In any case, I want to thank Carlos for doing his best with a not brilliant bunch and wish him good luck in finding a new job.
Ok optimists, give me something that I can be optimistic about for next year.
I'll give it a shot.
The important point to start with is recognizing that we're at kind of a nadir here. The Yankees have manhandled the Jays again, fifth place is looking more familiar by the day, and homegrown strongman Josh Phelps has just been traded in a deal that even its staunchest defenders would not say improved the ballclub measurably. In other words, it's usually darkest just before pitch black. Okay.
Now, reasons for optimism. First of all, the team's luck will improve next year, basically because it has to. It's not just the slew of major-league injuries, and it's not just the continued slew of minor-league injuries; it's all the little things like umpires' calls and managerial decisions that could have gone either way but ended up going against the Jays. It's just been a snake-bitten year, and the odds are very good that it can't continue.
Second, the team on the field should be better. I'm pretty sure Carlos Delgado isn't tanking on purpose in his walk year, but he is playing very badly, and that's $18.5 million that's essentially going to waste this year. Even taking into account the several million dollars in raises for the players under contract (Wells, Hinske, Batista, Halladay) and raises for other players due to performance, there will still be money left over to fill a few holes. The Jays are set at four positions (3B, 2B, RF, CF) with above-average talent, none of them costing more than $3M. Young and talented options, with significant upside, are available in LF and at C for bargain prices. Four-fifths of the rotation is set, one of which will be a newly healthy recent Cy Young winner, the other three of which would improve any staff in the AL East. The bullpen is in better shape today than it was on May 1, and the best of this year's crop will start next year. That leaves DH, 1B, SS, and SP to fill, and there may be a homegrown SS ready next year. Few teams can enter the off-season with that short a shopping list and that much money to spend.
Third, the farm system is rich. Every team below Triple-A is heading for the playoffs, and numerous Jays prospects litter their respective leagues' All-Star teams. A number of these players, I would judge, will be dealt away this off-season in order to bring talent to the big club (assuming such deals are available to be made; you can't force the market to give you what you want). And there are players such as Russ Adams, Guillermo Quiroz and Jamie Vermilyea who ought to be contributing members of next year's club. Very few teams will be entering this off-season with both money to spend and prospects to deal; the Jays are one.
Fourth, everyone in the organization, from the top to the bottom, should have learned something from this year (they ought to; every losing experience is also a learning experience). Carlos Tosca has been a slightly better manager this year than last; assuming he manages this team again next year (I personally don't believe that he will), he ought to be somewhat better again. The team's coaches have achieved excellent results with several players; to the extent that they did not achieve excellent results with other players, that also has been a source of new wisdom for all concerned. The team's three foundation players -- Halladay, Wells and Hinske -- all suffered through slumps, setbacks and frustration; and since they each appear to be strong character players, they should each emerge better for it next season. The future stars on the club -- Alex Rios, Dave Bush and Gabe Gross -- are all receiving playing time at the big leagues. Bush and Rios have performed rather above expectations, with Rios in particular showing a very quick learning curve. When these players break camp in 2005, they won't be starry-eyed rookies anymore, and that will help them adjust more quickly. I'm sure even the front office has learned some lessons from this year's experiences -- and equally, I would like to think the team's fans have learned a lot as well (I certainly count myself among those who had something to learn this year). There's no such thing as a straight climb to the top; everyone has setbacks, and 2004 is the year of the setback.
Fifth, the plan and its executors are solid. The Blue Jays are being assembled the way smart baseball clubs will be assembled from now on: home-grown talent, innovative strategies, detailed research, cost containment, risk management. But these strategies mean little without the knowledgeable baseball people to back it up -- and I believe the Blue Jays front office has some excellent baseball people. The list of good talent acquisitions is longer than the list of bad ones; each year's draft looks stronger and stronger. As more old payroll comes off the books, more new and valuable players -- those who care deeply about winning -- are coming onboard.
The simple fact is, the Jays will be competing at a distinct payroll disadvantage for the foreseeable future. That's particularly unfair because the game's two richest clubs are in Toronto's division; but fair or not, that's the way it is. So this team's fans have to understand that the Blue Jays are continually starting from a sub-zero baseline. The team will always have a slim margin for error, and when too many things go wrong, as they have this year, disaster is all but unavoidable. That's the good and the bad of rooting for the underdog; you have to fight for everything you get, but getting it is incredibly satisfying.
This year's team hasn't looked like the Fighting Jays very often; but I'm investing a lot of confidence -- based on more payroll flexibility, new blood, improved management, better luck, and continuing excellent architects -- in the belief that next year's edition will. And I'll be here to watch it happen.
I'll give it a shot.
The important point to start with is recognizing that we're at kind of a nadir here. The Yankees have manhandled the Jays again, fifth place is looking more familiar by the day, and homegrown strongman Josh Phelps has just been traded in a deal that even its staunchest defenders would not say improved the ballclub measurably. In other words, it's usually darkest just before pitch black. Okay.
Now, reasons for optimism. First of all, the team's luck will improve next year, basically because it has to. It's not just the slew of major-league injuries, and it's not just the continued slew of minor-league injuries; it's all the little things like umpires' calls and managerial decisions that could have gone either way but ended up going against the Jays. It's just been a snake-bitten year, and the odds are very good that it can't continue.
Second, the team on the field should be better. I'm pretty sure Carlos Delgado isn't tanking on purpose in his walk year, but he is playing very badly, and that's $18.5 million that's essentially going to waste this year. Even taking into account the several million dollars in raises for the players under contract (Wells, Hinske, Batista, Halladay) and raises for other players due to performance, there will still be money left over to fill a few holes. The Jays are set at four positions (3B, 2B, RF, CF) with above-average talent, none of them costing more than $3M. Young and talented options, with significant upside, are available in LF and at C for bargain prices. Four-fifths of the rotation is set, one of which will be a newly healthy recent Cy Young winner, the other three of which would improve any staff in the AL East. The bullpen is in better shape today than it was on May 1, and the best of this year's crop will start next year. That leaves DH, 1B, SS, and SP to fill, and there may be a homegrown SS ready next year. Few teams can enter the off-season with that short a shopping list and that much money to spend.
Third, the farm system is rich. Every team below Triple-A is heading for the playoffs, and numerous Jays prospects litter their respective leagues' All-Star teams. A number of these players, I would judge, will be dealt away this off-season in order to bring talent to the big club (assuming such deals are available to be made; you can't force the market to give you what you want). And there are players such as Russ Adams, Guillermo Quiroz and Jamie Vermilyea who ought to be contributing members of next year's club. Very few teams will be entering this off-season with both money to spend and prospects to deal; the Jays are one.
Fourth, everyone in the organization, from the top to the bottom, should have learned something from this year (they ought to; every losing experience is also a learning experience). Carlos Tosca has been a slightly better manager this year than last; assuming he manages this team again next year (I personally don't believe that he will), he ought to be somewhat better again. The team's coaches have achieved excellent results with several players; to the extent that they did not achieve excellent results with other players, that also has been a source of new wisdom for all concerned. The team's three foundation players -- Halladay, Wells and Hinske -- all suffered through slumps, setbacks and frustration; and since they each appear to be strong character players, they should each emerge better for it next season. The future stars on the club -- Alex Rios, Dave Bush and Gabe Gross -- are all receiving playing time at the big leagues. Bush and Rios have performed rather above expectations, with Rios in particular showing a very quick learning curve. When these players break camp in 2005, they won't be starry-eyed rookies anymore, and that will help them adjust more quickly. I'm sure even the front office has learned some lessons from this year's experiences -- and equally, I would like to think the team's fans have learned a lot as well (I certainly count myself among those who had something to learn this year). There's no such thing as a straight climb to the top; everyone has setbacks, and 2004 is the year of the setback.
Fifth, the plan and its executors are solid. The Blue Jays are being assembled the way smart baseball clubs will be assembled from now on: home-grown talent, innovative strategies, detailed research, cost containment, risk management. But these strategies mean little without the knowledgeable baseball people to back it up -- and I believe the Blue Jays front office has some excellent baseball people. The list of good talent acquisitions is longer than the list of bad ones; each year's draft looks stronger and stronger. As more old payroll comes off the books, more new and valuable players -- those who care deeply about winning -- are coming onboard.
The simple fact is, the Jays will be competing at a distinct payroll disadvantage for the foreseeable future. That's particularly unfair because the game's two richest clubs are in Toronto's division; but fair or not, that's the way it is. So this team's fans have to understand that the Blue Jays are continually starting from a sub-zero baseline. The team will always have a slim margin for error, and when too many things go wrong, as they have this year, disaster is all but unavoidable. That's the good and the bad of rooting for the underdog; you have to fight for everything you get, but getting it is incredibly satisfying.
This year's team hasn't looked like the Fighting Jays very often; but I'm investing a lot of confidence -- based on more payroll flexibility, new blood, improved management, better luck, and continuing excellent architects -- in the belief that next year's edition will. And I'll be here to watch it happen.
Wow ... I spent half an hour composing that, just to find out that I was right about Tosca not being back next year. I clearly have powers beyond my wildest imagination....
Tosca should have been fired a few months ago. In my opinion, this team has played with no energy for too long and it's gotten to the point of being embarrassing. I'm glad JP made the move now. It's time to start fresh.
Looks like Oakland is about to win an 18-inning affair in Minnesota. Some good work out of both bullpens, espeically by Joe Roa, J. Dusch and Hammond.
Jordan that was a well thought out post. I agree with much of it. My only reason for long term concern right now is that I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of the Jays being set in 4 positions (3rd; 2nd; CF; RF). I agree whole heartedly with CF (although it will be interesting to see if Wells' long term production is closer to '04 versus '03 - if its '03 then you have a perennial all-star if its '04 you have an above average CF but not an all-star). I'm optimistic about RF but its a bit early to declare that a certainty (the plate discipline and power need to show up). Frankly, I'm concerned about both 2nd and 3rd. Hudson is clearly above average defensively but his bat, after a hot start, has soured considerably. If he stays where he is (at essentially his level from the past 2 years) then you probably have an average to slightly above average second baseman. What worries me is that like Phelps and Hinske his offense seems to be going backwards. If he regresses then all the defense in the world won't make him an above average player. As for Hinske, I'm worried. His defense is vastly improved. Full credit there. However, a low .700 OPS (or worse) will make the last two years of his contract (where he'll be eating up 10% or more of the budget) is going to look pretty sick.