I presume we'll see Gabe Gross playing this afternoon? As the ch-ch-changes keep coming?

Thank god for the plexiglas syndrome. Big changes next season.

Magpie wins a hearty cheer:

HOORAY, MAGPIE!

Star article:
The Jays now feature 16 of 25 roster players that were acquired in the last three years by Ricciardi. ... and counting.

Yeah...so? Is this relevant to anything?

no author listed but I assume it's Griffin given the tone and 'Smurfs' reference

Read the print version this morning. It was Griffin.

I don't know what to say about the Phelps trade. I've felt for a while that they should have been playing him more, but I'm surprised to find that I'm pretty meh about this deal. I am really looking forward to seeing Gross play though.

The Jays now feature 16 of 25 roster players that were acquired in the last three years by Ricciardi. ... and counting.

Wait a sec, you mean the Jays are using players acquired by their GM?
Whoa, trippy.

Where's the article where Griffin points out that the Jays just traded a white player for a "visible minority?"

This trade does not very bad at this time. We traded a major leauger for a AAA propsect who is the same age as Phelps? This could be very risky down the road, the indians do not even consider this guy a propsect.

At least Carlos Delgado spared the Blue Jays from having to further explain why they just traded away their RBI leader for another minor league prospect.

What would the Star do if Phelps wasn't leading the team in RBI? Out of all the stats that lead a player to be overvalued, that's the biggest one.

From Jeff Blair, who is only the best baseball writer in Toronto:
This season, he had an on-base percentage of .296 -- the worst among Blue Jays regulars -- as well as 12 homers and a .237 batting average.

Thank you, Jeff, for actually saying something smart about Phelps' production.

Johnny, we get it. Anything else to add?

A, how about you add something, explaing why Crozier will be a better pro then Phelps? Number Crunching etc.

The Jays now feature 16 of 25 roster players that were acquired in the last three years by Ricciardi. ... and counting.

This is important because JP has shown that he is very determined to run an organization filled with players he has acquired, rather than keep around those that Ash brought in.

The way Werth is playing in LA, even though Frasor has been a nice surprise, it looks like the Jays may regret the trade. Werth has a much higher ceiling and impact bats are harder to come by than solid relievers. No wonder LA wouldn't part with him at the trade deadline...

I really do think the Jays will eventually regret the Phelps deal too. He's a real smart guy and he'll figure things out eventually. Crozier's ceiling looks to be, at best, Brian Daubach and he only had about three solid, unspectacular years.

I am a big fan of JP's drafting record (especially later round college picks) but I haven't really liked many of his trades. I think he undervalues his own players, at least those that have fallen out of favour or were drafted by Ash.

I'm not saying Crozier will be anything but Phelps is proving he can only hit soft tossing lefties. And there just aren't enough soft tossing southpaws to justify his existance any more. We simply can't afford Phelps' unproductive outs and limited defensive abilities.

Crozier has roughly the same offensive profile as Phelps (sans the 5th deck HR power -- though last time I checked they were still worth the same as the ones that barely clear the wall) but can play some defense.

As far as I'm concerned, Johnny, you still haven't demonstrated Phelps' value to the Blue Jays.

This is important because JP has shown that he is very determined to run an organization filled with players he has acquired, rather than keep around those that Ash brought in.

This is asinine. You are either lying or have no idea what you are writing about. Of course JP will find places for players he acquired. Why else would he have acquired them if he didn't think they could play? You've got to be kidding me to suggest that there is a systematic plan to purge every Ash player. The fact is, many Ash players were horrible. That's why Ash was run out of town. Are you telling me that you'd like to have Mondesi, Alex Gonzalez, and Billy Koch back? JP's only insiduous plan is to replace bad players with good players. Good players will remain on the team as long as we can hold them. That's why such Ash players like Orlando Hudson, Vernon Wells, Roy Halladay, Alex Rios, and Guillermo Quiroz will have long careers in Toronto.

The way Werth is playing in LA, even though Frasor has been a nice surprise, it looks like the Jays may regret the trade. Werth has a much higher ceiling and impact bats are harder to come by than solid relievers.

Really? Looking at this year, it seems to me the Jays have been in greater need of solid relievers than players with high ceiling impact bats. In fact, if you didn't notice, the Phelps trade was made to open up a roster spot for a high ceiling impact bat who plays the outfield.

The fact is, many Ash players were horrible. That's why Ash was run out of town. Are you telling me that you'd like to have Mondesi, Alex Gonzalez, and Billy Koch back?

*agrees wholeheartedly*

And Joey Hamilton!

*Shudders wholeheartedly*

I'm still waiting for the valued opinion of the Coach.

"As far as I'm concerned, Johnny, you still haven't demonstrated Phelps' value to the Blue Jays."

Hmmm..check out his numbers !! Who says Phelps will go his whole carreer without hiting righties, when he never got consistent at bats?? Did he or did he not get consistent atbats? He is still young and has proved to be decent against righties in the past. You still havent proved, why Crozier would make a better pro? As an older player who has not put up the numbers Phelps has at the same levels.

Crozier will just be another Minor league journeyman. 41st round picks, arent exactly boasting tons of tools, especially ones who are College players.

Ugh, we've been through the tools and age debate. Phelps certainly won't have a larger role with the Indians. The Tribe got him to PH against lefties and make the occasional start at DH, against lefties. If he's got such a limited role, why do we need him? There are plenty of other guys who can fill that role. As it stands, Crozier isn't guarenteed anything. He could be a minor leaguer the rest of his career, until he proves otherwise (if he never pans out, we have another 350k to add to the $18.5 Million in money for FAs).

Phelps definately had his chance and he definately didn't take that chance. How many years do you want to give him? How many ABs will it take to have enough proof?

how about you add something, explaing why Crozier will be a better pro then Phelps? Number Crunching etc.

2004 EQAs
Phelps: .245
Crozier: .265

And this doesn't take into account any defensive value. Opinion says Crozier apparently has some, perhaps even a corner OF, while Phelps could barely play 1B.

I think the most important thing about Phelps that most people overlook is what Robert brought up - he's turned into an extreme ground ball hitter (Phelps, not Robert).

The front office isn't fully of dummies. To have given up on a young player at this point they had to be pretty sure that he wasn't going to turn it around.

If Phelps wasn't going to be able to put up something in the neighborhood of .270/.360/.500, playing full time - not just against lefties, he wasn't going to be able to help the Jays.

eqa 2004? Compare, Phelps at high and and CRozier at high a, Crozier at AA, Pehlps at AA, Phelps at AAA, Crozier at AAA. understand Pistol? They traded a guy who can play now, to a pretty much unproven unwanted non prospect.

Front office not full of dummies?? You sure about that? This team is regressing.

Regressing from what?

Would you prefer having a 70 million dollar payroll, with no farm system, and no hope for the future?

I atleast see something in the future with what we are doing. In the long run this move may not make any impact on the future of the Jays.

Phelps has regressed the worst out of all our young players this year. Perhaps his failure is the source of your anger.

While I certainly don't have the venom of johnny on this one, your data Pistol is incredibly suspect. You are comparing Croziers best year at AAA with Phelps worst year in the ML. If you want to use Eqa you should at least post previous years data. Also are you implying that Cleveland is employing dummies? They seem to evaluate young talent quite well, and want Phelps.

As I've mentioned before I like JP, and believe he's made many, many good moves in his tenure here. But how'd he end up with Teflon skin here at DaBox? I have to agree with Johnny, there's absolutely nothing that shows Crozier will be better than Phelps.

Regressing? Come on now. Do you really think they will have a poorer record next season? I think they will most likely be one of those "surprise" teams and be very competitive...

When JP came to this team the starting rotation was one of the main weaknesses. It could be argued that it is becoming one of its biggest strengths. A foursome of Halladay (if healthy), Lilly, Batista and Bush is very, very solid. And there will be plenty of other pitchers knocking on the door pretty soon...

I have no doubt that our DH spot will be much more productive next year then this year...

At the Chasing Steinbrenner book signing, Thomas asked J.P. what the Jays would want for Phelps. J.P. said, without hesitation, that they were not going to trade Phelps.

Something that all of us have no idea of must have happened between then and now.

I'm not going to evaluate Crozier as a major leaguer until I see him play a major league game. Pontificating on how he'll do as if it's clad in stone is pure foolishness. He seems old for AAA, unless you take his injury into account. Cleveland didn't appear to value him highly, but obviously the Jays did. There are two compelling sides to all of this, and none of it will be sorted out until we see him play some games.

I'm enthusiastic about the reports that he's a good defender and that he can hit home runs and that he hits about the same against righties and lefties. Hopefully we'll see all of that in September.

I'll miss Phelpsy, though. Good luck in Cleveland, Josh. That fifth deck homer (and my near-death experience the next day trying to hang that giant #17 banner over the railing where you hit it) will forever cement you in my mind.

I'll also make my same comment, again, about charges of regression: the team is rebuilding. When you rebuild, you tend to lose a lot of games. That's why the Leafs never rebuild. We have to tough it out and look forward to the glory days to come. In the meantime, we can watch the fabulous play of Orlando Hudson, Alex Rios, Vernon Wells and the rest of our up-and-coming crew.

Johnny, if you have something constructive to add to the discussion, then add it. If you have nothing else to say beyond "This is a stupid trade and I hate it," which you've been saying repeatedly since the deal was made, then move on to another topic or go complain somewhere else.

At some point, potential has to give way to reality. Phelps turned 26 in May. Here are his BB/K totals the last three seasons.

Year     AB       BB/K
2002     265      19/82
2003     396      39/115
2004     295      18/73

That's a three-year total of 76 walks and 270 strikeouts in 956 AB. His OPS has dropped in that time from 925 to 827 to 713. Anyone see a pattern here? Phelps has lost control of the strike zone, and he's losing his grip on a big-league roster spot.

No, Crozier doesn't particularly impress me. Should the Jays have gotten more than Crozier for Phelps? From this perspective, it's pretty amazing they got anything at all. Regardless of what Phelps might or will become, what he is today is the strikeout machine at the end of the bench. And as a probable Super-2 next winter, he was going to cost a lot more than that role is worth.

So if you're demanding to know why Josh Phelps was just traded for a AAA first baseman, start by asking Josh Phelps.

I like JP, and believe he's made many, many good moves in his tenure here. But how'd he end up with Teflon skin here at DaBox?

Far, far from it. I think it's fair to say that, generally speaking, the Roster on Da Box is pro-JP and the vast majority -- though not all -- of our comments reflect that. But then, you'd expect a group of people who get along well enough to start a venture like this to generally share opinions.

And the great thing about a blog is that it's open to all voices (excepting those who become vulgar, try to use the site for free advertising or otherwise break the law), and I would guess -- though it is just a guess -- that the number of anti-JP comments on this site outnumbers the number of pro-JP comments.

And I think we've been pretty balanced in reporting -- for every interview with Richardi or with Keith Law, for instance, there's a 10 part series with Richard Griffin and Geoff Baker, neither of whom has exactly been JP's most vocal proponent.

Something that all of us have no idea of must have happened between then and now.

Very, very true. My point is that none of us (nor the Cleveland Indians) know what this is. There is no doubt from the information available that Phelps is the better player in this deal (check out thoughts from non-Jay sites like Primer for other opinions). Many people seem to put all kinds of trust in JP while at the same time vilifying other GM's for their moves. Wouldn't the same caveat be true in any trade? As a fan site we can only form opinions from what we know, and therefore those who think JP has made a bad deal have a very firm footing to stand on here.

I'm not going to evaluate Crozier as a major leaguer until I see him play a major league game. Pontificating on how he'll do as if it's clad in stone is pure foolishness.

Also true now, and with every trade, but that's what we do all the time. It's also what the GM needs to do in order to determine whether or not to go ahead with the trade. Folks are invoking this clause only because the trade seems so lopsided. Would you say the same thing if Kenny Williams made this trade?

PS - I don't mean to pick on you NFH, just trying to make a point;)

At the Chasing Steinbrenner book signing, Thomas asked J.P. what the Jays would want for Phelps. J.P. said, without hesitation, that they were not going to trade Phelps.

It was actually me, Thomas had far better questions :-)

To echo Mick's point -- I don't consider JP immune from criticism. I was very skeptical about the Adam Peterson promotion, which turned out to be a dog of a move. I've been saying for a while that Gregg Zaun should not be taking at-bats away from Kevin Cash anymore. I like Ricciardi's approach towards building a team and most of my baseball philosophies agree with his. But I don't always agree with what he does, and I don't expect to.

This season has gone poorly -- even for a rebuilding year, even accounting for all the injuries. I expect that at the end of the year, there'll be some reckonings for that. But I still think the overall plan is sound, and I'm certainly not willing to leap off the bandwagon because of this deal. When I think the front office has it right -- and I often do -- I'll say so. When I think they don't, I -- and more than a few others here -- will also say so.

There's tons of room at Batter's Box for widely varying opinions of the Ricciardi Blue Jays. So long as you offer cogent arguments in defence of your position and you keep your dialogues civilized and respectful of other posters, we'll all get along just fine.

Actually, what would you expect JP to say to that question? Can you imagine Phelps, the next day, reading Griffin:

"At a gathering of the Richardi cult yesterday, the Jays' GM told fans he would be happy to trade young slugger Josh Phelps if the right deal came along, cementing his status as a stats-first executive with little knowledge of how to deal with ballplayers as human beings."

Pick any member of any roster anywhere in the majors, a player who has not indicated any measure of interest in bolting at first opportunity, and consider:

"It'd be difficult to deal Laynce Nix," said Rangers GM John Hart. "He's a big part of our future, and we have no plans to do so."

That's fictional, but you get the idea. And then, listen REAL HARD under your breath and hear Hart saying, "But if Minnesota offered us Johan Santana, sure, we'd deal Nix in a heartbeat. And if Kevin Mench keeps bitching about playing time and stays in that slump, he'll go to where I damn well please to send him for whatever we can get."

Fiction on Mench, too, of course. But you get the idea.

Get sick for a few days, you miss a lot. (It’s nothing serious but I’m still on the DL, or to be more precise, the couch. I hope to be more active around here next week and back at the Dome for the next home stand.)

The way Werth is playing in LA, even though Frasor has been a nice surprise, it looks like the Jays may regret the trade.

In real life or roto, deals with people you like and respect, where you both get what you want, are far better than trying to fleece someone. Let’s hope this Ricciardi-Shapiro collaboration works for everyone involved, just like the first one between J.P. and DePo.

For sure, adding Phelps is a great move by the Indians, who have roared past the Twins in my Central Division affection, even if they fall short in the standings. I was already partial to the Tribe (I hate the White Sox and am indifferent to the Royals and Tigers) because I admire the way they are rebuilding.

The Jays could appear to "lose" in the short term -- we'll see how it looks in a year or two. Crozier does seem nearly ready, and while there was absolutely no window of opportunity for him between Hafner and Aubrey, he'll get the same chance here that Eric Hinske did. If he takes advantage, it's a win-win for both teams and both players.

Rest assured that this Buffalo Bison, Eric Crozier, was not the best deal the Jays could have made in exchange for Phelps.

Griffin's like JohnnyS99 with a spell checker. They both neglect to tell us just how the Jays could have received more. Josh isn't exactly a valuable commodity in the NL, and most AL contenders already have righty DH options, so there wasn’t a huge demand for him. The Jays had a choice -- hold on to him, risking even further erosion of his value and getting absolutely nothing in return, or pull the trigger for someone their scouts believe will continue to improve. Presumably, Crozier is a lot better than anyone who was being offered before the non-waiver deadline. Turning this deal down would have been an all-or-nothing bet that Phelps would suddenly figure out something he's been getting steadily worse at for two years -- hitting righthanders.

Actually, what would you expect JP to say to that question?

JP was *quite* candid with us. It would be totally inappropriate to expand further but we certainly weren't getting BSed. He gave real answers to real questions and I don't doubt that his response to my question was, at the time, what he believed to be the truth. The Jays were really hoping that Phelps could be Delgado's replacement and unfortunately Joshua just couldn't step up.

Heh, sorry A, my memory must be faulty. I swear in my head I can still hear Thomas asking it. ;)

J.P. was very, very candid.

PS - I don't mean to pick on you NFH, just trying to make a point;)

Totally understood. What I mean is more the comment that "he will never" do such-and-such is a bit ridiculous. "I don't think he'll ever" or "based on this, it looks like he won't" are completely, totally defensible positions.

Frankly, I was shocked to hear about the trade and thought it sounded awful at first, but I have to have faith that the captain of the ship is not an idiot and that I'm not toughing out this rough season (and potentially a couple more) to get to the glory for nothing, knowwhatimean?

On Phelps, I was just at primer, where they brought up the fact that the idea of a lefty masher appears to be a myth. Righthanded hitters usually hit about 1.08 time better against left handers than right handers, no better and no worse. If that's true (and I know it sounds crazy, but MGL did alot of work on it), then Phelps is either underperforming against right handers, or overperforming against left handers.

There's tons of room at Batter's Box for widely varying opinions of the Ricciardi Blue Jays. So long as you offer cogent arguments in defence of your position and you keep your dialogues civilized and respectful of other posters, we'll all get along just fine.

That may be the ideal Jordan but you only need to scroll through the thread about the trade to find several posters who don't offer great arguments but feel the 'JP make trade, trade good' is enough to demean the counterargument. It's especially bad when some members of the roster also use this tact.

I have no problem with the site being pro-JP. But that shouldn't be reason enough to throw out stupid comments when your argument isn't strong to begin with.

Josh isn't exactly a valuable commodity in the NL, and most AL contenders already have righty DH options, so there wasn’t a huge demand for him. The Jays had a choice -- hold on to him, risking even further erosion of his value and getting absolutely nothing in return, or pull the trigger for someone their scouts believe will continue to improve.

This makes the most sense to me of most of the comments. I was perplexed at the management of Phelps this year. I thought he ought to have been playing more but I guess they were probably working him in the cage, etc. I got the impression they were trying to get him to hit to right field for the first half. He evidently could not do it. If he ultimately does not learn that skill (and he does have a very long swing) he is going to continue strike out a lot and continue to rely on hitting mistake pitches. There is no way you would go into next year with Phelps as a full time player.

I'm not sure this is Crozier for Phelps though. If they do go out and get some bats this winter for 1B and/or DH, Phelps would have just continue to be stapled to the bench and have an even lower value at a higher price.

"Phelps has regressed the worst out of all our young players this year. Perhaps his failure is the source of your anger.
"

Phelps never got a fair shake, and last year did not deserve to get inconsistent at bats. Jp has failed. I would accept a Phelps if they got something of some value in return!

phelps' regression should be correlated to tosca. lack of playing time hurts.

NFH, I enjoy getting credit, even when I don't deserve it.

I asked JP about a different trade, so that might be what confused you.

I'm not sure why you are attributing random voices in your head to me though. :)

For what it's worth, I just dealt Dave Kingman from my whatifsports.com team, and I don't miss him much at all.

I would accept a Phelps if they got something of some value in return!

But you seem to insist that only players with major league experience have value. Which would mean that Tampa Bay got nothing of value for Victor Zambrano.

You comparing Scott Kazmir to Eric Crozier..........Gimme a break! Crozier doesnt have the stats and is not very much of a prospect. Numbers don't lie. Phelps never got consistent playing time, and has yet to play a full season. Last year he was injured and had trouble getting in the lineup, but caught on the last part of season. Crozier cannot play for this team next year , he is far from slaugtering minor league pitching as Phelps did in AAA, AA, A. (20 homers in each level)

It's especially bad when some members of the roster also use this tact.

Well, you have to take into account that I'm on the roster because I cheer loud. ;)

Seriously, though, I challenge anyone to find a post where I've made a coherent argument on anything supported by facts.

Crozier doesnt have the stats

Actually, he does. You just don't want to listen to them - you'd rather whine.

Crozier cannot play for this team next year , he is far from slaugtering minor league pitching as Phelps did in AAA, AA, A. (20 homers in each level)

Phelps had 24 HR and 32 BB in 257 AAA at bats.
Crozier has 20 HR and 36 BB in 296 AAA at bats.

Phelps had 83 Ks and hit .292.
Crozier has 67 Ks and is hitting .296.

You have no point. You just want to complain.