Lineups from yahoo:-

A. Rios rf
E. Hinske 3b
V. Wells cf
C. Delgado 1b
G. Zaun c
R. Johnson lf
F. Catalanotto dh
C. Gomez ss
O. Hudson 2b

C. Crawford lf
R. Baldelli cf
A. Huff 3b
T. Martinez 1b
J. Cruz rf
J. Lugo ss
R. Fick dh
T. Hall c
R. Sanchez 2b

And so the BJ Upton era has officially begun. Upton gets called up, but he is not in today's starting lineup.

God, I've never seen so many swings and misses in my life.

Wells really helped out Brazleton by swinging at the 2-0 pitch in the dirt which would have been ball 3. To make it worse, it was a check swing.

Brazleton's slider looks lights out today.

I'll take it that that was supposed to be a hit and run?

Upton?? Never heard of him.. Talk to me!

B.J. Upton, 2nd overall pick in the 2002 "Moneyball" draft, just behind Bryan Bullington of the Pirates.

I think in 10 years it's going to look like one of the worst crop of draftpicks ever. Which is why I probably give Russ Adams a lot more slack than other people.

Thanks Moffat.. I found him.. he's T-Bay..

1) that brings me back to an unanswered query of mine last week..
Does anyone know a good source of info for League Wide Prospects, (similar to our "Organizational Depth Chart" and "Farm System")

and 2)
what is the "Moneyball Draft"

Man, if only Douglass could work on his control I think the Jays could have something on their hands. He throws pretty hard (92-93) and he has a pretty good curve. Not to mention he's also got a fairly decent cutter (as seen on the strikeout of Fick) But again, he's really got control problems. He falls behind in the count too much and often throws too many pitches.

Anyone else get a laugh out of the fact that Gomez just dropped that ball, had to look for it, found it then turned and picked it up and still got Toby Hall at first? Man is he slow!

The 'Moneyball Draft' is the draft discussed in Michael Lewis' book 'Moneyball'.

Adams is doing pretty much everything well except hit for power. If he can get his average over .300, and add a bit of power, and play SS in the bigs (hmmm, I guess these are a lot of ifs), he'll be a very good player. A decent pick, although the Jays could have taken Kazmir, Swisher...

I can't help you much with #1.

RE: Moneyball Draft. There's a chapter in the book Moneyball that goes through the 2002 draft and the picks the A's made. The term Moneyball draft is usually used to describe the 2002 picks the A's made, but it's occasionally used to describe the entire 2002 draft as the book goes through a lot of players the A's didn't draft that year (Kazmir, Adams, Fielder, Greene).

And the Jays struggles with a man on 3rd with less than 2 outs continue.

Although Rios smashed that ball, it's still a missed opportunity.

Dave, what should the Jays have done differently?

RE: Kazmir. He probably would have gone first overall if teams thought they could sign him. Hence why he fell all the way to #15. Even if the Jays drafted him I don't think he would have signed.

Of all the first rounders that went after the Jays picked, Blanton looks by far the best (excluding Kazmir for the reason mentioned above).

Jonny, if you'd notice I pointed out how Rios smashed that ball.

Just a case of bad luck, that's all.

Fair enough. But in my book, "missed opportunity" means they did something wrong.

Man I love Aubrey Huff.

I also like what Tampa has done with their organization. I was going over their chapter in Baseball America's prospect guide yesterday and was pretty suprised to see that Cantu wasn't in their top 30 prospects. While that is probably just a BA miss, I think it's evidence to the fact they have both high end players and a pretty deep system.

It is a missed opportunity in my book.

Any time you have a guy on 3rd with 1 out, you SHOULD be able to cash him in. The Jays did pretty much all they could there, but the Hinske AB leaves a lot to be desired. Timely hits have eluded the Jays this season and bad luck has found them, as evident by that hot shot by Rios and then the Rays having the same exact scenario and coming up with a 2 out hit. A big one at that off the bat of Huff.

Dang.

Yet another AB where Wells swings at a pitch way up in the zone, screams "God Damn" and then throws his bat down in disgust. I find it a bit comical. Just like how I used to find Eric Hinske's usual outbursts last year funny. Although he has toned it down a bit.

Just a thought that crossed my mind. The D'Rays made a couple of moves bringing up Upton and a 2nd base prospect whose name I can't recall. In addition, they have Cantu as mentioned above. And, as a backup they have Rey Sanchez.

Does that mean that Julio Lugo might be available this off-season? Either via FA or trade?

He seems to be OK defensively, relatively young at 29 and has good speed. Offensively, his career line is 271/334/402 (right in line with his current year). I recall that he had a contoversial departing with the Astros, I think it was a domestic issue with his wife.

He's slightly better offensively and defensively than Gomez, but probably doesn't have the versatility of Gomez (but then I never did like the fact that our back up SS was also our back up 1st baseman).

Not sure what kind of salary he would command, but I would think it's not so high as to not fit into JP's budget especially when you omit Berg's and Gomez's salaries (and maybe Woody's as well). Frankie M stays as the veteran back up IF.

Looks like Lugo would be arbitration eligble after this season. At 1.75MM I'd guess that would make him a non-tender candidate and therefore a potential free agent.

FIRST CAREER HOMERUN FOR ALEX RIOS!!!

Yes! A no doubter. Good for Alex.

A.R. Homers! Yeehaw!

Nice to get the monkey off his back.

And then Hinske and Vernon follow it up with 1 pitch at-bats.

:(

That was an absolute bomb by Rios.

Here is to the next 249 or so...

Sweeet.. there was no doubt about that one.

Only 249? You're very unambitious Jim.

Here's to the next 499 or so ;)

Yet another AB where Wells swings at a pitch way up in the zone, screams "God Damn" and then throws his bat down in disgust.

Knowing V-Dub, he probably screamed "Gosh darnit!"

Nomar a Cub.........just doesn't seem right...

Some pretty amazing debuts around the league lately.

In Paul Lo Duca's first AB as a Marlin he hits himself a 2 run home run. And now Orlando Cabrera homers in his first AB with the BoSox.

Did anyone else hear or see Harold Reynolds proclaiming his love for Cabrera on Baseball Tonight? Can someone please tell him that Cabrera isn't a great shorstop.

Why did Hinske throw to second? The runner isn't exactly fast! That cost us a run... idiot.

Awful decision by Hinske to go to 2nd on that play. That's an example of not paying attention to detail. Before the pitch, you should be thinking about who's hitting, who's on the basepaths and basically envisioning all the scenarios in your head. Hinske should know that Toby Hall is one of the slowest players in the league, it was proven earlier in the game on the grounder he hit to Gomez.

Brutal play

No gold glove for Hinske this year I'm afraid.

Isn't Lugo a wife beater? Wasn't he arrested after slamming a car door on her head? If so, no thanks.
Hinske probably knew he wasn't getting anyone at first base from that far back. his arm is not that strong.

If that's true, I don't like the sound of a guy who shuts his car door on his wife's head.

I do like the sound of a guy who shuts the car door on a Yankee's head -- do you think we can get one of those?

Hinske probably knew he wasn't getting anyone at first base from that far back. his arm is not that strong.

Hall hit the ball pretty hard and he isn't exactly the fastest runner in the league. Hinske should have gone to first with it. Even an average throw gets him.

And Delgado goes down for the 3rd straight time. Owned by a rookie.

Before the pitch, you should be thinking about who's hitting, who's on the basepaths and basically envisioning all the scenarios in your head.

Yeah, that's something I remember from Mosquito league when I was 9.

http://www.canadasdebate.com
Delgado has been owned all season. A bunch of solo shots don't do anything to change that. A .250 hitter who never drives in runners on base isn't any better than the .209 hitter who ocassionally drove in a run.

Can anyone here explain why Phelps didn't hit against Miller yesterday? He's crushing lefties this year and Zaun, well he isn't.

Mosquito league was the best.

I remember playing RF and always throwing the ball right to the catcher every time with air time. I did not understand why the coach wanted a quick throw to a cutoff man.

Isn't Lugo a wife beater? Wasn't he arrested after slamming a car door on her head? If so, no thanks.

Lugo's wife withdrew charges; some zealous prosecutor went ahead with them anyway. He was acquitted. Originally it was alleged that he hit her head against the hood of her car while defending himself when she attacked him. She testified in his defense in court that she made it all up and her injury was accidental.

Incidentally, Lugo's a terrific player; definitely one of the ten best shortstops in baseball and he can do it all. Good range and hands; pretty good power for a shortstop, good speed, hits for a decent average, bunts well and draws some walks.

I remember Musquito league too. I was the best fielder on the team... But I was also probably the worst hitter, so that put a big damper on my Major League dreams!

Okay thanks for the correct info on Lugo, Craig. The SS situation confuses me. Do we know if JP sees Adams as the long-term everyday SS? Until this year I thought Adams was projected to be a great player, 1st rounder and all that. Perhaps that's an optimistic view of his abilities - in which case we need to find a better one soon. With what looks like a weak bat at 2B we can't afford another for SS, I should think.

And what for Woodward? Do we try to trade him, or just dump him? Surely some team would like him as a backup? When is he a free agent?

Boy, it didn't take long for the fair-weather fans to jump on Delgado now that he's struggling, eh?

RIOS!! YES!!

Wow, the Rays are really upset on that 1-2 call on Rios. It did look like a strike, but who knows what the ump is thinking. Either way, Rios gets another crack it and rips a solid single up the middle.

To me, it seems like Rios' progression is a daily thing. He's just getting better and better every game he plays.

Rios certainly got lucky there. That sure was a strike.

OK, Miller's coming in; now you pinch Phelps for Hinske and screw Piniella to the wall.

big deal.. umps miss calls, its one thing to be upset but after you give up a liner right up the middle, be men and shoulder some of the blame.

If there's a lefty pitcher besides Heredia that Carlos can take deep, it's certainly Trevor Miller.

Although Miller's numbers look pretty good this season.

THE GOLDEN SOMBRERO!!!

geez Carlos, golden sumbrero.. or is that 3 k's.

What in the world is Carlos doing up there? That was an absolutely disgusting at bat.

At this rate with Delgado they could roll it on the ground to the plate and Delgado would swing at it!

"If you let Eric hit, and Miller stays in to face Vernon, then you can't PH for Carlos with Phelps without Piniella bringing in the righty. You only get *one* window to spot Josh against the lefty. Tosca blew it."

I stand corrected, my thoughts were Phelps would be able to only PH and wouldn't be able to stay in the game after the at bat since he doesn't play 3rd. PH for Delgado and at least Phelps can stay in the game at 1st if it goes into extra innings.

For all those with the book Moneyball is it worth the price to buy it?

I would check to see if my local libray had it first but if not I'm thinking about buying the book.

I've mentioned it twice on Batter's Box. That's probably twice too many (no one really needs to know, or is interested in, what I do for a living); if you're tired of hearing it, I apologize. A couple of other people have mentioned it as well I think - I don't have control over them but I'll let them know to cool it.

Don't come back, though. Seriously... it's not worth it. There's lots of good places to go. I ain't leaving, so if I'm as irritating as all that you may as well do so.

Ron, I think it's worth it; a very entertaining read. I think it's out in paperback now (is that right? Anyone know?) and if so it would definitely be worth the $20 or so.

If you're in the Toronto area, you're welcome to borrow my copy.

I fail to see how criticizing someone for a bad at bat/game/week makes someone a fair-weathered fan.

I consider myself to be a huge Delgado fan. Obviously, he's having a really tough time out there this year. It seems to be HR or nothing lately. If I make a comment about a terrible at bat (like the one in the 8th today), it is what it is. An expression of frustration at a bad plate appearance.

I don't see many people on here complaining that Delgado sucks or that he's lost his abilities. Instead, I see a bunch of loyal fans, frustrated at the 2004 season and expressing their sentiments at a guy who seems to epitomize the team's struggles.

Ron,

I greatly enjoyed reading Moneyball but thinking objectively: it is a little bit short (my edition not all that many pages of quite widely-spaced type) so it didn't last very long at all, and I haven't found it to have extra value after the first re-read. (This is in contrast to Ball Four, which I bought at the same time and feel was very good value indeed; I will re-read that book every year probably).

I'd suggest that if you can borrow a library copy that would be best. I would have thought that some library ought to have it since it was so popular. Or another baseball fan might be able to lend you a copy.

That's not to say that I didn't like Moneyball - it's a really great read - but value for money is a harder question.

What's the general opinion on Delgado not waiving his no trade??

Thanks on the opinion of Moneyball.

It costs $21 at Chapters for the paperback
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Item=978039332481&Catalog=Books&N=35&Lang=en&Section=books&zxac=1

I've new to the sport of baseball and from time to time I hear people (including in da box) talking about the book. I have yet to hear any bad reviews about the book so I thought maybe I should check it out.

I'm hoping the book isn't over-hyped and is entertaining.

Personally, I love Josh Phelps, have ever since his debut. I love it when he hits the ball in the air (which unfortunately has been too infrequent this year); I think he can be a good everyday player, and I would really like to see him get a chance to work things out.

However, if the Jays feel differently, they have a right to make that decision; I won't be critical if he's not back with the club next year. What bugs me is that we almost never see Phelps, Cash, Woodward or Berg these days; for the past three weeks, the Jays have been effectively playing with a 21-man roster, which makes no sense to me, especially given the struggles of many of the regulars, both at bat and in the field.

If they're not going to play Phelps or Woodward, fine, but at least give their roster spots to players who can contribute. Cash is the only outstanding defensive player on the bench; we don't have a pinch-runner who can actually steal a base, or a left-handed pinch hitter if Cat is in the starting lineup. The Jays' bench is just a malaise of guys with no specialized skills.

(For the record, Phelps has sat out 10 of the past 14 games; Cash had only 18 at bats in the entire month of July; Berg has two(!) at bats since July 10; Woodward had 19 at bats in July, has appeared in three of the past 11 games)

I think Woodward has an ailment of some kind.

braden: well said.

Hopefully no-one takes this the wrong way, but this mini-flamewar that spawned in this thread reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Bart can read minds and turns people into hideous creatures if they have a negative thought.

Marge: "Oh, GOOD! The curtains are on fire!"

Hehe.

I'm glad Berg isn't even playing. I no longer have to say "Berg STRIKES again"

As for Cash and Phelps, both of them riding the pine doesn't make sense to me.

I was really stunned when Howie Clark, Dave Berg, and Chris Gomez were playing 1st base instead of Phelps.

I doubt any of those 3 figure into JP's long term plans and I doubt any of those 3 are building blocks.

I know Phelps has struggled but it seems like he can't play himself out of it or when he performs the odd chance he gets (i.e. 2 HR's 2 days ago)he still can't get in the lineup. I'm convinced Phelps could hit 5 HR's the next game he plays and Tosca will sit him out the following game if a right hander is on the mound. Even though Phelps has barely played the last 2 months he's still leading the team in RBI's.

The only logical explantion I have is that JP doesn't see Cash or Phelps in next years plans and figures there's no point in showcasing them for trades down the road because they both won't bring anything in return anywas.

loyal fans, frustrated at the 2004 season

Everyone is frustrated. The players, the coaches and the front office -- the ones who are actually qualified to call the team "we" -- are more disappointed by this season than even the most ardent fan.

That doesn't make a bad at-bat "disgusting" or "pathetic" or "brutal" and it doesn't make a guy who throws to the wrong base after saving a double an "idiot". Sometimes, a hitter just misses. Sometimes, he's fooled. The biggest complainers have no clue how much Trever Miller's slider looks like his fastball to a lefty batter. A dozen times a game, a pitcher makes a mistake -- occasionally, he pays dearly for it, like Douglass did vs. Huff today. Fielders commit errors, physical and mental. All of those things are part of the game. Overreacting to any individual play, an inning or even an entire game, demonstrates a lack of understanding about baseball.

The Jays' bench is just a malaise of guys with no specialized skills.

Welcome to the world of the $50 million payroll. Wouldn't it be nice to have $4 million to throw at Ruben Sierra and Kenny Lofton? Actually, the bench does consist of one lefty-masher, Phelps, who as Craig already pointed out, should probably have pinch-hit for Hinske today, plus a backup catcher who is a defensive specialist. The redundancy is in three RH-swinging middle infielders. That's why I'd prefer Howie Clark to Berg, but what's really missing is a LH bat with some pop. Someone like Greg Myers.

Coach,

We could probably go in circles here so let's just agree to disagree. Delgado looked bad out there today. There's no denying that. I just can't see how pointing that out makes someone a fair-weathered fan. I'm certainly not trying to argue that there aren't bandwagon Jays/Delgado fans. There certainly are. I just don't see much evidence for that here.

A fair-weather fan is someone who cheers you when you're winning and boos you when you're losing.

Nope.

A fair-weather fan is someone who cheers and maybe follows you when you're winning and then *disappears* when you're losing.

I usually agree with what you have to say Craig, but I think "normal" fans are allowed to boo and even criticize players when they don't like what they're seeing...

If you're passionate enough to show up on a blog and remark on the team/player during the bad times, you're probably not a fair-weather fan.

Craig B. has always been obnoxious ever since I'm been reading this site (one of the reasons I haven't posted, but there aren't many BJ boards out there). He's so condescending, I don't know why other people haven't called him out on it. Every reply is laden with an insult, or an opening line of "that's pure crap" or "you don't have a clue". Someone yesterday was talking about leadership in a thread (forgot which one), and Craig immediately comes in and calls the poor guy "stupid" for having a difference of opinion. Now this about Delgado. Seriously, coming from a guy who helps run this site (I think), that's just uncalled for. And you don't even offer up an apology to the guy you obviously over-reacted to, although "you should just leave....seriously" is probably the most sincere you've ever been.

Tone down on the holier than thou attitude man, some people don't appreciate being talked down to. Just because you write for a website and talk tough behind a computer monitor, doesn't mean your opinion is any more credible than someone elses.

Yeah, I know, I know, I should leave because you will never change, I should go somewhere else to read about the Jays, blah, blah, blah. Thanks.

Nice to see A. Rios get his first dinger, by the way.

Welcome to the world of the $50 million payroll. Wouldn't it be nice to have $4 million to throw at Ruben Sierra and Kenny Lofton?

Sierra is making $1 million, compared to Dave Berg's $800,000 salary. The Orioles are also paying $800,000 to B.J. Surhoff and his .329 average off the bench. Dave Hansen is making $725,000.

Lofton is pricey, but the Red Sox are paying less than a million for Dave Roberts and his 33 stolen bases in 34 attempts (and .340 OBA).

I'm cherry-picking examples of course; you can't always expect these guys to be good every year. Sometimes you pay a guy to do a specific job, and he doesn't do it (and yes, I'm thinking of Willie Greene).

It's the lack of diversification that bothers me. We all knew before the season that Gomez, Woodward and Berg all had the same skill sets. They're all right-handed, they don't have great speed, and they're average defensive players. And now, two of them hardly ever play.

Berg has batted only twice since July 10, and he has no value as a pinch runner or defensive replacement. The Jays would be better off paying the minimum wage to a guy who can run real fast. Even if he has no other skills, it's better than someone who doesn't contribute at all.

http://me.woot.net
Just because you write for a website and talk tough behind a computer monitor, doesn't mean your opinion is any more credible than someone elses.

The problem is the internet itself. People feel free to be more hostile and hurtful than in real life, because the communication is completely impersonal when it's done through a computer screen. The problem is also that there seems to be a fundamental disconnect between what someone writes and what that same person interprets when reading. The same person who spews bile from his or her eyes on a forum like this gets upset when someone else criticises him or her; this results in the vicious circle of flaming.

This isn't to say that any specific person is affected by these issues. It is a general problem with the Internet, and I know at least a few people, yours truly included, whose online persona is completely different from his or her real personality. What I have been trying to do, and what I suggest everyone who regularly communicates online should do, is treat every interaction online as you would offline. Be polite, kind, understanding, and—if all else fails—just walk away.

RE: Yesterday's "difference of opinion"

When a guy starts out by saying "who needs leadership, heart, and intangibles, when you have stats?" he's coming to the board trying to pick a fight, First Time Poster.

Had the poster been more amicable, I'm sure Craig's response would have been as well. But when a guy comes into YOUR house and tries to pick a fight, are you going to be all smiles and sunshine? Some of us have sunk a lot of time and money into this venture and we do see it as "our home". What you consider to be "holier than thou" may be someone just protecting something he has a very large vested interest in.

You're right. There aren't many Blue Jays boards out there. Which is why I'd encourage you to start your own and deal with the posters however you wish. Once you've sunk a lot of time and money into it, we'll see how you deal with posters coming to your board trying to pick a fight.

I won't be booing Carlos Delgado.

A player who signs a 4 year contract, gives the club 2 very good years and 1 excellent year, and then a poor one in the contract year due to injury does not deserve to be booed. Carlos is obviously giving his best, but simply not succeeding.

From the larger perspective, Carlos is the finest player ever produced by the organization. He is on a Hall of Fame track, and he's a hard-working and likable individual, not to mention a fine influence on younger players. When players like Carlos fail, as he has this season, what I feel is certainly not anger. Disappointment certainly, but I know that Carlos feels the disappointment more than any fan.

Everytime I look, Carlos falls behind 0-2 in the count. Just based on that pattern, any objective fan can tell that he is scuffling and trying to do to much. I can't remember him striking out this much. I still have faith that he will turn it around because of his track record. The bat speed looks like its still there.

I think Craig has been a little harsh recently and have said so in an e-mail to the "Roster" list. But only a little.

That said, Craig uses his name on this site, and his e-mail address is permanently available from the left navigation bar. The vast majority of posters, roster and otherwise -- including me -- don't use the "e-mail" option when posting comments or have their e-mail address anywhere else on the site. And virtually everyone uses a shortened version of their real name (e.g. first name only, again including me) or a pseudonym.

Essentially, Craig is the politician who appears at the end of a commercial blasting opposing views who looks into the camera and says "I'm Craig Burley, and I approved this message." And people who don't do that -- per Joe's comments on the problems with the Internet in general -- are hiding behind "This advertisement was paid for by Patriots For Freedom and is not approved by or affiliated with any political party or candidate."

Actually, I've been a total dick recently, Mick, but thanks for thinking the best of me.

Seriously, I've been very unpleasant, and that's been *my* negative reaction to the team's losing. FTP is right... no one needs to be talked down to.

Delgado looked pathetic out there today; it wasn't working for him, he had some bad at-bats, and some of you got angry and blew up at him. I should let you have your say, and point out - without being a dick - that the anger is misplaced.

I will take issue with this though:

A fair-weather fan is someone who cheers and maybe follows you when you're winning and then *disappears* when you're losing.

No, that's not a fan at all. That's just a member of the public.

But when a guy comes into YOUR house and tries to pick a fight, are you going to be all smiles and sunshine?

To be fair, though, Andrew K today wasn't actually trying to pick a fight, not like yesterday's guy. Andrew was an innocent bystander who got blindsided when I decided to play Angry Jerk.

I was only talking about yesterday. :)

Man, I was about to post the ALERT of all time. But it's a minor linking glitch. Apparently someone named "Shawn Camp" saved today's game for the Royals. It was Camp's second save.

According to ESPN.com's Scoreboard, though, the save was the first for 38-year-old Sil Campusano -- the link even goes to his mostly-dead profile page.

>>>Whew!<<<
I was thinking this was some sort of reverse-Roy-Hobbs moment ...

Sil Campusano has been haunting the ESPN database for some time now. Earlier in the season, he was leading the American League in ERA.

I don't know if it's a glitch, or someone having a bit of fun.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fairweather&r=67
A fair-weather fan is someone who cheers and maybe follows you when you're winning and then *disappears* when you're losing.

No, that's not a fan at all. That's just a member of the public.

I see where you're coming from, but I stand by my definition, and so does Dictionary.com (COMN), so there!

Sorry, I'm anal...

Now that we've all solved our problems. Lets start talking about what Da Box is all about.. Baseball.

How about Dewon Brazelton(Sp?)? This guy has pulled off a Halladay esq turn-around and I think you'll see more teams trying the Halladay Project out after this.

For those qho

Fair enough. What term would you suggest? Turncoat fans? We need something that gives the flavour of the person (basically, blows like a weathervane) but doesn't use the term, so as to avoid confusion...

That's all I'm saying Craig B. Everyone has an opinion, and the majority of the posters here are intelligent enough to back theirs up if asked to in a polite manner. It's just that when someone insults a poster for a comment, the response from the poster who got insulted will inevitably lead into a pissing match. No one likes to be talked down to. We're all mature enough to debate with each other in a civilized manner, and that's why this forum is as well received as it is.

Anyway, no hard feelings. Hope I can be involved in some of the intelligent discussions in the future.

- FTP

Brazelton's always had the stuff - no one ever doubted it. He was rushed, I guess. And now that he has confidence, maybe that's the key ingredient?

As I was going to say before my computer decided to pull one of its spaz's on me.

For those who don't know, The Halladay Project is based on Roy Halladay's pre Cy Young year when Roy struggled greatly. Instead of giving up on him the Jays sent him back to A-Ball to work with Mel Queen. In a years time Halladay was back in the Majors, with a new delivery and confidence.

My $.02: More than half of Delgado's hits last month were for extra bases, and his walks are way down, which suggests to me that he's trying to do too much at the plate. He's also probably still recovering from his injury.

I have tremendous respect for Delgado, and always have; he's always worked hard. Wells is also a hard worker.

Chris Woodward has a nasty stomach bug; he apparently spent the night (last night?) in hospital.

Halladay: 105.1 IP, 97 H, 3 HR, 25 BB, 96 K, 8.20 K/9, 3.24 K/BB
Brazelton: 62.1 IP, 50 H, 3 HR, 34 BB, 35 K, 5.01 K/9, 1.03 K/BB

*Those are Roy's 2001 numbers, and Brazelton's current numbers.

I wouldn't put Brazelton in the Halladay resurrection category, yet. He's going to have to improve the K:BB significantly. Unless he's Victor Zambrano's ratio relative.

Braz has a great arm though. For the Jays sake, I hope he never pans out.

Incidentally, FTP, it would be rather humorous if you kept using the handle "First Time Poster", even when it's, well, no longer your first time posting.

Either that, or go with "Second Time Poster", "Third Time Poster", and so on and so forth, keeping count. Heh... I have to try that next time I find a good site that uses handles.

< But when a guy comes into YOUR house and tries to pick a fight, are you going to be all smiles and sunshine? Some of us have sunk a lot of time and money into this venture and we do see it as "our home".>

This remark sends out loud, and unfortunate, warning signals as far as I'm concerned. I like The Box very much; but, though there's "no cabal," there is definitely a sense on the part of some that they are insiders--and the rest of us aren't. Not good. (Even the jokes about the cabal are insiders' jokes. Like the cuttlefish, and the frequent music and video-game references. Those are about self-reference, more than they're about baseball.) To repeat: I like the Box a lot, and I admire many of its posters--but it can always be improved. And it's not any particular person's, or even group of persons', "home". It should belong to all of us who visit it. Doesn't mean, of course, that we're not grateful to those of you who work so hard at setting it up and continue to run it. But please don't make the mistake of thinking you own it.

LOL. I used that name as a spoof of the cliche "long time listener, first time caller" bit on the radio. In hindsight, I should have picked a better name to start my Battersbox experience, since it wouldn't make sense using that name more than once. But I'll go with that or 'FTP' from now on so you guys can get familiar with it, although your idea of keeping track of number of times posted would have been fun. That way when I reached my one millionth post in the year 2010, we could have all celebrated. Unfortunately, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I put down "Hundredth time Poster", when it was actually my hundredth and one. Too much work. :)

- FTP

Craig B, hats off to you. There are loads of people who have left this site or no longer post because they've been scorched. In my view there have been many apologies owed to many Blue Jays fans here over the past yr. I still read the Batters Box just about everyday because there are some writers and *even* some not in the cabal who's opinion is well reasoned or just makes common sense.

I know you guys have thought about a membership before you can post. So far you haven't done this - I think it would be mistaken - therefore if the public is invited into your *house* as one has put it, there is a responsibility to be polite to the guest and usually the guests will be reciproical. We should all check our ego's at the door.

You stepped up to the plate today, many thanks.

Willy:

The insider / outsider problem always exists on message boards. No matter where you go, there'll always be people who've been there for years and have amassed thousands of posts, and there'll always be scrubs like me with around 7 posts.

It's more extreme here, because some of the posters are also article contributors, some run / own the site, and some have been to games together. Because the site doesn't require registration to post, it's about as open as it could be. There'll be inside jokes and bizzare cuttlefish references, but that's what happens when a group of people talk together for a long period of time.

Like I said, I have around 7 posts to my name, and I lurked for most of the season before I started posting. Eventually, though, I figured that I'd ether be ignored or blasted, and neither is all that bad.

Jim and Moffat

Thanks for the info on "Moneyball Draft", I have a copy of Moneyball on order from Amazon.

I suppose that the Moneyball numbers have only been applied to the 2002 year?

6-4-3 said it the way I would have liked to say it. Thanks.

On a more serious note, if Schmidt keeps walking Edmonds I'm going to lose the OBP category to Freddy Beach in BBFL. Come on, guys!

Regarding Delgado. I, like most fans on this board, apprecate greatly the years that the man has put forth for the Jays. More than anything, I am greatful for the way that he has embraced the city of Toronto, something that a large number of ahtletes seem to have a hard time doing nowadays.

But in the same breath, as a fan of the Blue Jays, I feel that I have reason to be dismayed with what I have seen from Carlos this year.

At the all star break, Delgado had a grand total of two win shares. I'm sure that total has gone up this past week, but nonethless, I am sure that many would agree that he has performed terribly up to this point of the season, especially for being one of the highest played players in the majors. Seriously, he was probably overpayed last year, and he had a 1000 OPS. I would say that he can be blamed for the team's poor performance more then any other Blue Jay. (Ironically, another fan favourite, Halladay, is probably second).

Furthermore, not only has his huge salary been a major burden on the team's performance this year, but he also chosen to refuse to be traded to another team. This would have allowed the team to save money and/or receive at least one future piece of the team.

I really don't know how hard he has worked this year to stay healthy and effective (And really, none of us do). However, I can look at Delgado, and respect every decision he is making, I suppose. He has the right to do whatever he wants.

My problem comes as a Jays fan. Carlos has made it nearly impossible for the team to be succesful this season, and when given the opportunity to help the future of the team, he has refused. That makes me hate him a bit.

So I might have to boo him next game I go to.

Hey Craig B, good on you for stepping up to the plate.

Freedom of expression in law is a good analogy. A hallmark of good government is a willingness to tolerate (even welcome) dissenting or unpopular views. Otherwise everyone gets complacent, and the community ultimately suffers.

Could someone in the GTA with Extra Innings or something equivalent tape Maddux's next start for me? I don't get too many channels but my dad left me tapes of Steve Carlton's, Nolan Ryan's, Tom Seaver's, Gaylord Perry's and Phil Niekro's 300th, and I taped Roger's 300th last year so I really want to keep it going. I'd be willing to pay for the tape and your time, email me if interested.

Moneyball - it's a really great read - but value for money is a harder question

Would you like the book to take you out for dinner as well? Money on books is never ill spent. Especially something like Moneyball, which is great even for non-baseball fans.

As for this guy:
who needs leadership, heart, and intangibles, when you have stats?
from 'vic', I believe. I don't see him as picking a fight. I thought his post was funny. He fueled a debate - and questioning the Dodgers on their dealings is very reasonable. And that's the heart of Dodger controversey, to what value do you put on "heart and soul", or stats?

Anyhow, I'm not joining this fray. And I'll see some of you at Cheer Club tomorrow.

But please don't make the mistake of thinking you own it.

He does own it. He doesn't own you (or any of us). But he does own Batter's Box.

moffatt said: When a guy starts out by saying "who needs leadership, heart, and intangibles, when you have stats?" he's coming to the board trying to pick a fight, First Time Poster. //////

excuse me moffat, i was not trying to pick a fight at all. since when does questioning a move based on leadership mean starting a fight? because you disagree with it? if you said reed johnson sucks, and i like reed johnson, should i take that as an insult? sorry i didnt read the guidebook telling me the difference bwetween insults and opinions.

i didn't disrespect anybody nor was that my intent.

regarding phelps situation...I can understand putting best lineup fwd (choosing Catalanotta over Phelps at DH) and I can appreciate that his swing "needs" some work on it BUT ... so much of this game is confidence and between the ears plus just playing...if Phelps is mature enough to not be affected by his occaisonal play (at the expense of his ego/confidence) then he should be able to handle demotion to Syr where he can work on his swing while playing and reinforcing his confidence...the majors are a tough place to change such a fundamental part of one's game (eg. ask Halladay) especially while sitting on the bench ... who is the Minor League batting coach ? can he not contribute to a revamped swing or is the problem with Phelps' swing so much esoteric overanalyses that it becomes more problem than solution ... its perplexing to me and I am sure even moreso for Phelps ...

the above is based on Phelps still having options left which I don't know

Phelps doesn't have any options left. If he did, he would have been demoted a long time ago, I suspect.

Yeah, I imagine if Phelps was sent through waivers to get him to Syracuse he would be snapped up by someone in a second.

Yeah, I imagine if Phelps was sent through waivers to get him to Syracuse he would be snapped up by someone in a second.

I imagine 29 teams would snap him up in a second, meaning the Expos would get him :)

Yeah right, I doubt the Expos management would want such a "highpriced" player. ;)

Slight Hijack:

At bat songs: Toronto Blue Jays on ESPN.COMN for link. Not many listed but includes She bangs by William Hung and Bad Case of Loving you (Doctor, Doctor).

This is quite the thread, but forgive the hijack:

For all you Old 97's fans out there, the new record is outstanding. Run, don't walk, to the nearest record store, and pick it up. It's a fair bit less poppy than their previous effort, but it is a great listen that unfolds with each play.

Who knows if this is too far buried for Mike Wilner to see it..

But congratulations to you and your wife on your 5th!

Even the jokes about the cabal are insiders' jokes. Like the cuttlefish, and the frequent music and video-game references.

Uh, the cuttlefish emerged in a thread and developed in threads over the course of the season. It's only an "inside" joke if you don't read the roundup threads, where it was born and where it continues.

So I might have to boo him next game I go to.

J Brando that sounds like a pretty arrogant statement to me. Who forces you to boo Carlos?