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With the MLB trading deadline just days away (midnight on July 31st), there's a wide range of players rumoured to be on the move, though the talent level thins rapidly past the top few. From the almost certain (Randy Johnson) to the highly unlikely (Carlos Delgado), there are enough rumours to keep the hardest of die-hard trade junkies close to their computers for the next few days. This thread will be the catch-all Batter's Box place to discuss rumours, report on deals, and calculate winners and losers.

We'll start with this ten-point list of some of the players in play.

1. Randy Johnson

It's hard to separate fact from fiction here, as often happens when the New York press gets involved in trade rumours. But the Big Unit's sojourn in Arizona appears to be done, and the Yankees are the most desperate to grab him. Trouble is, the Yanks have virtually nothing of interest in their farm system, so there's talk they might take on a bunch of the D'Backs' bad contracts instead. The Dodgers and Angels may also be in the hunt.

2. Kris Benson

No, I don't understand either why the mediocre pitcher with the second-most-interesting job in his household is attracting so much attention at the trade deadline. But Benson clearly appears to be the consolation prize for the pitching-starved team that doesn't get the Unit. Minnesota is considered a leading contender, but virtually every other team with playoff aspirations has come up in discussions. Pirates GM Dave Littlefield has been asking the moon for Benson, and might yet get it from someone.

3. Larry Walker

Big risk, big potential reward. The Man from Maple Ridge has reportedly expressed his willingness to consider a trade, and the Rockies probably wouldn't ask for much in terms of prospects from the winning team. But his injury history, his huge contract, and the fear of mile-high stat inflation has made him very difficult to move. A team that waits in the bushes until the last minute and makes a successful low-ball offer might just end up with a rejuvenated and dangerous outfielder.

4. Steve Finley

Another aging outfielder is putting up one more good season, and the Diamondbacks are hoping to strike while this particular iron is hot. There are rumours that the Marlins were close to a deal, but that Finley would prefer to go to San Diego, which really hasn't shown much interest so far. The Phillies would appear to be the natural choice, but Finley appears reluctant to go east, and Marlon Byrd may not be enough. If Arizona is waiting on Gavin Floyd, they may be waiting a while.

5. Orlando Cabrera

There's probably a better chance of Dick Cheney giving an interview to Mother Jones magazine than of Cabrera returning to the Expos (or whatever they'll be called) next season, so the orphaned organization will be happy to get something now. His best days are behind him, but Cabrera might still be attractive to a team like the Cubs looking for infield pop.

6. Doug Mientkiewicz

With Justin Morneau finally in Minnesota to stay (much to the chagrin of Canadian Olympic fans) and Mientkiewicz on his way out of town after this season, the Gold Glove first baseman has already been told he'll be dealt. Doug (I'm tired of typing his last name) has always been brilliant defensively, but he's added an increasingly fearsome bat to his repertoire lately. Of course, it's hard to get much in return for a player who's publicly announced he'll be dealt. Just ask Gord Ash.

7. Jose Mesa

Mesa is the poster child for the average closer: brilliant one season, unreliable the next, almost certainly overpaid for most of his career. Mesa is having a good season this time around, and bullpen help is often desirable down the stretch. Many contenders would have at least a passing interest in Mesa as a setup man, with the Cardinals a top candidate but with little to offer from a poor farm system.

8. Barry Zito

Now we come to the longshots. Could the former Cy Young winner be had at the deadline? After a heavy workload the last three years and a troubling season on the mound, it's possible. Oakland can't re-sign all of their Big Three starters, and a Hudson-Mulder-Harden-Blanton-Redman rotation would look pretty good in 2005. Any team willing to risk taking on a possibly injured ace lefty, not to mention dealing with Billy Beane, is more than welcome to try.

9. Jeff Kent

The Astros are a puzzle, as Thomas pointed out earlier this week, and Kent may be the key to it. While Carlos Beltran gets all the trade attention, it's likelier that Houston would hold onto the spectacular centrefileder and instead peddle Kent, who's hitting well but is also an attractive trade target and can be replaced right now by Chris Burke. Anyone need a slugging first baseman for the balance of the year? Benson to Houston, Kent to New York, Dioner Navarro and cash to Pittsburgh?

10. Nomar Garciaparra

Speaking of tradeable infielders on contending teams ... this one is a stretch, but don't discount the possibility of the Sox moving Nomar, especially if the Yankees get the Big Unit and John Henry needs to respond. A three-way might work here too: Cabrera and Livan Hernandez to the Red Sox, Garciaparra to the Cubs, shiny pebbles and cash to the Expos. Naw, even I'm not cynical enough to think that could happen....or am I?
Trade Central | 86 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_A - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 02:38 PM EDT (#47273) #
2. Kris Benson...No, I don't understand either why the mediocre pitcher with the second-most-interesting job in his household is attracting so much attention at the trade deadline.

Sorry, out of the loop here. Who has the most interesting job in Benson's family?
_Four Seamer - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 02:44 PM EDT (#47274) #
http://www.annabenson.net
Sorry, out of the loop here. Who has the most interesting job in Benson's family?

COMN and judge for yourself.
Leigh - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 02:46 PM EDT (#47275) #
Four Seamer,

I too am out of the loop. Before I COYN, is the link safe for viewing at work?
_Sister - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 02:47 PM EDT (#47276) #
Regarding 10.

I was thinking more along the lines of a Nomar to the Cubs, a couple of prospects to the D-Backs, and Randy Johnson to the BoSox.

Unless, of course, Randy and Curt really do hate one another.
_Tom - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 02:47 PM EDT (#47277) #
RE Nomah: I've seen a lot of talk, nothing serious mind you, of him going all over the place from Chi-town to Florida to the 'Backs, but inconspicuously absent is any talk about the Padres. Realistically, it would make a great deal of sense for the Sox, and possibly the Padres to explore this avenue. Something like an Eaton and Nady/OF prospect two-for one deal would be smart, since it gives the Sox a solid starter and a possible fill-in for Nixon's injury. The Padres get an offensive spark in return. The only problem is, Nomar's finally heating up and trading that bat at this point would leave a gaping hole in the line-up (especially with Nixon out and Ortiz and Tek facing suspensions).
_Leviathan - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#47278) #
Kris Benson is a lucky SOB.
_Jacko - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 02:52 PM EDT (#47279) #
Hijack (sort of):

BP is pretty high on Hattig. His breakthrough this year is even more significant when you look at where he plays (Portland):

What's also interesting is that Portland, normally a modest hitter's park, has been an especially unaccommodating environment for Hattig. At Portland, he hit .250/.390/.398, while on the road he hit .338/.431/.632.

Hattig ain't Jeff Bagwell (he's much older than Bagwell was when he was traded for Larry Anderson) but he might turn out a lot better than people are expecting.

And let me add that the BP subscription has been well worth the money this year. Since it runs for a calendar year no matter when you subscribe to it, there's not much downside to getting a subscription during the season.
_MatO - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 02:53 PM EDT (#47280) #
The site is safe for viewing!
_Four Seamer - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 02:54 PM EDT (#47281) #
I too am out of the loop. Before I COYN, is the link safe for viewing at work?

The parts of it I've seen, yes. Mind you, I haven't gone past the first page. I keep meaning to look at it when I get home from work, but I always forget.
Pistol - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 03:08 PM EDT (#47282) #
And let me add that the BP subscription has been well worth the money this year. Since it runs for a calendar year no matter when you subscribe to it, there's not much downside to getting a subscription during the season.

Actually I think a subscription runs until March 1 regardless of when you subscribe.
_Spicol - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 03:24 PM EDT (#47283) #
The Denver Post, who got it from New York Newsday, is reporting that the Yankees are willing to take Johnson, Matt Mantei AND Roberto Alomar's salaries off of the D-Backs' hands and would then release both Alomar and Mantei...essentially a work-around of MLB's rules regarding cash transactions. All told, the D-Backs would save $8MM this season.

Considering the cash and prospects (Navarro?, Cano?), is Johnson really worth that much? The Yankees have a great team as is, and are built solidly for a short series.
_Shrike - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#47284) #
Levianthan: agreed! Wow.
_Jacko - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#47285) #

Actually I think a subscription runs until March 1 regardless of when you subscribe.

Sorry, my mistake.

If that's the case, BP are being a little dumb. They are losing out on lots of partial year business. They should either bill by the Calendar year, or pro-rate subscriptions based on what part of the year you get it in.
_Mick - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 03:59 PM EDT (#47286) #
His best days are behind him, but Cabrera might still be attractive to a team

Why would you say that? He's not even 30. Having a down year, and last year was probably a career year based on past performance, true, but I think it's a reach to say his best days are behind him.

As for Kent to the Yankees, the Tampa press is reporting a pending reunification of Torre and Tino. Given the presence of Tony Clark and others, I don't really see that as a boon to the Bombers, but why not?He's cheaper and he's "family."

If the Yankees do take on Mantei and Alomar -- which wouldn't surprise me -- then I'd be shocked if they released them. I mean, props to Miguel Cairo, but Alomar would at least get a chance to play 2B, and the pitching staff has been injury-wracked enough that Mantei would get a shot at filling the Quantrill role.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 04:06 PM EDT (#47287) #
Actually I think a subscription runs until March 1 regardless of when you subscribe.

It doesn't. Hasn't for awhile.
Pistol - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 04:17 PM EDT (#47288) #
It doesn't. Hasn't for awhile

Hey, how about that. I was just on the 3/1 cycle. Once I logged off I could see a 1 year would run from today thru 7/28/05.
Pistol - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 04:19 PM EDT (#47289) #
The Denver Post, who got it from New York Newsday, is reporting that the Yankees are willing to take Johnson, Matt Mantei AND Roberto Alomar's salaries off of the D-Backs' hands and would then release both Alomar and Mantei...essentially a work-around of MLB's rules regarding cash transactions. All told, the D-Backs would save $8MM this season.

Didn't Alomar sign a small one year contract?

It's not likely, but if that were to go through you might see Selig step in and block it in 'the best interest of baseball' as Arizona would essentially be selling Johnson for cash.
Thomas - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 04:20 PM EDT (#47290) #
Alomar signed for one year and $912,000, or something like that. It's not that big, especially when the season is 2/3 over.
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 04:23 PM EDT (#47291) #
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/standings.html?PHPSESSID=99be83ed4365b07de48a7a33012e47ab
In George's world, Johnson is definitely worth that much. The rotation of Vazquez, Lieber, Contreras and whoever turns out to be healthy come playoff time is not overwhelming, and counting on Rivera to be as good as always in the playoffs this year is probably not a great idea.

COMN for Clay Davenport's third order standings. The standings show the Yankees, the Red Sox, the A's and the Angels in a tight knot at the top of the AL. The Yankees are where they are in the actual standings courtesy of Mariano Rivera and luck. The Rangers are where they are due to luck.

If I were to put a number on the Yankees' chances of winning the AL with the rosters as they are, it'd be 30-35 per cent. With Johnson, it goes to maybe 45%. When has George ever forsaken an opportunity like that? And really, can you blame him?
Craig B - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#47292) #
. The standings show the Yankees, the Red Sox, the A's and the Angels in a tight knot at the top of the AL

Actually, it shows the Red Sox considerably in front. The Rangers are as close to the Yankees, Angels and A's as they are to Boston.
Joe - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#47293) #
http://me.woot.net
There are definitely parts of Anna Benson's site which are at least midly NSFW. It doesn't matter, though, because it's so slow you'll never have enough patience to visit them.
_Useless Tyler - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 05:03 PM EDT (#47294) #
Well, it certainly looks like Rivera may be available ;-)

Can anyone else see Johnson pulling a Roger Clemens and acting like he was a Yankee for his entire career?
_Jordan - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#47295) #
http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2611108
Lots of fun rumour material in the latest Rosenthal column (COMN). Garciaparra for Matt Clement?
Named For Hank - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#47296) #
Well, it certainly looks like Rivera may be available

He's done in New York, and when the trade goes through Thomas owes me one large Coke in a 3-D Roy Halladay Commemorative Cup.
_Niles - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 05:37 PM EDT (#47297) #
Coach,

do you think its impossible that Delgado will be back with the Jays next year? He would seem to favour staying with the Jays even at a reduced salary, and the Jays have nobody good to take over the 1st base position. Maybe signing Delgado for another couple of years isn't a bad idea but JP and the gang don't seem that interested.
_Useless Tyler - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#47298) #
He's done in New York, and when the trade goes through Thomas owes me one large Coke in a 3-D Roy Halladay Commemorative Cup.

Didn't Thomas declare bankruptcy?
Named For Hank - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 05:56 PM EDT (#47299) #
I'll have to put in my claim, then, and hope that there's something left for me after the trustees sell off his assets.
_dp - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 06:47 PM EDT (#47300) #
Anyone go to "ask anna"? I have some questions, not so much for her, but for her clothes.

I'm almost glad the Mets' playoff chances faded in the last few weeks- they were ready to give up too much for Benson and have kept their farm depth intact.

It looks like Johnson's pulling a Clemens and forcing the 'zona's hand.

Cat's staying put I guess.

OT: Yankees/Jays in NYC September 22- tix are $5 in the upper reserve.
_Rob - Wednesday, July 28 2004 @ 10:59 PM EDT (#47301) #
With the MLB trading deadline just days away (midnight on July 31st)

Is it 4 pm EST or midnight? Wilner just said to J.P. something along the lines of "Saturday, 4 pm is the deadline, do you anticipate anything will happen with the Jays?"
_Jay - Thursday, July 29 2004 @ 08:18 AM EDT (#47302) #
Today's rumour has Anaheim offering Kotchman and Ortiz for Benson. Call me crazy but if I could get Kotchman for one of Batista or Lilly, I'd be all over that.
Pistol - Thursday, July 29 2004 @ 08:48 AM EDT (#47303) #
Is it 4 pm EST or midnight?

It used to be midnight, but they bumped it up to the afternoon the past year or two.
Thomas - Thursday, July 29 2004 @ 09:27 AM EDT (#47304) #
Good memory Tyler. That's right, I'm bankrupt NFH. Your commerative cup will never be. And it doesn't matter, because I will win the bet anyway.
_Jordan - Thursday, July 29 2004 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#47305) #
It used to be midnight, but they bumped it up to the afternoon the past year or two.

Thanks for the correction, guys.

The Angels appear to have soured slightly on Kotchman and seem ready to deal. I doubt Dave Littlefield will get a better return than that for Benson, who has a lot of question marks. Ortiz may be thrown in for salary reasons as much as anything else. I'd do it.
_Jordan - Thursday, July 29 2004 @ 11:29 AM EDT (#47306) #
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/sfl-mdeal29jul29,0,4421923.story?coll=sfla-sports-headlines
More rumours ... Jose Contreras to the Marlins in a 3-way Unit deal?
Pistol - Thursday, July 29 2004 @ 11:36 AM EDT (#47307) #
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/mlb/mlbrumors.html
If you want a place that has a nice collection of articles with trade rumors COMN (you'll get a few popups). There's a lot of repetitive stories in there, but you can scroll through it all pretty quick.
_Brent - Thursday, July 29 2004 @ 11:38 AM EDT (#47308) #
So let me get this straight:

Yankees: Johnson + the tab for Johnson and Contreras
Marlins: Contreras and Mayne
Diamondbacks: Stokes, Murphy, Nunez, Navarro, AND Duncan ?

Jeez. Why doesn't Arizona just ask for the whole Future's roster?
_Useless Tyler - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 02:16 AM EDT (#47309) #
Good memory Tyler.

Oooh ooh, is THAT a use?
Joe - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 02:44 AM EDT (#47310) #
http://me.woot.net
you'll get a few popups

Ahem.
Pistol - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 08:19 AM EDT (#47311) #
From a Philly paper.....

"Several baseball sources confirmed yesterday that the Phillies are involved in a possible three-team deal. The Phillies would send second baseman Placido Polanco to Oakland, the Athletics would send lefthander Ricardo Rincon to the New York Yankees, and the Yankees would send centerfielder Kenny Lofton to the Phillies...
_Jordan - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 10:26 AM EDT (#47312) #
If the Phillies have settled for Lofton, they've given up on getting Beltran from the Astros or Finley from the Diamondbacks. That is, unless this is all leverage to get the other teams to raise their bids. I love this time of year.

And if that deal does go through, score one for Oakland.
Mike Green - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 10:38 AM EDT (#47313) #
I wonder precisely how the Anti-Moneyball crew would spin the acquisition of Polanco. "You can't measure defence with numbers" seems a little lame.
_Mick - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 05:53 PM EDT (#47314) #
From The Newberg Report ...

"ESPN's Jayson Stark is reporting that Texas has traded Brad Fullmer to San Diego for a player to be named later. Various reports suggest the player might be infielder Jake Gautreau, a 2001 first-round pick of the Padres."

Acquiring Gautreau, a second baseman better with the bat than the glove, would seem to increase the likelihood of not signing Soriano to a long-term deal OR potentially moving Gautreau to first and trading much-asked-about Adrian Gonzalez, which would still allow Texas to move Mark Teixeira to the outfield, at least eventually.
Pistol - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 06:04 PM EDT (#47315) #
This is official according to Gammons on Sportscenter right now.

Mota, LoDuca and Encarnancion to Florida for Choi, Penny and a minor leaguer.

Also, Charles Johnson went to the Dodgers as well.
Pistol - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 06:07 PM EDT (#47316) #
The minor league is Bill Murphy
_Mick - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 06:24 PM EDT (#47317) #
My initial reaction is that Florida gave up an awful lot for not enough.
_Mick - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 06:29 PM EDT (#47318) #
Also from Gammons:
"The Mets, also looking for pitching help, acquired pitcher Victor Zambrano and a minor league pitcher from the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for pitcher Scott Kazmir and another minor leaguer."

Not every day you deal your opening day starter and the guy who earned your team's first two victories of the year, both against the Yankees. But Kazmir is supposed to have a high ceiling, isn't he?
_Brent - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#47319) #
I can't believe the Mets let go of Kazmir. And they unleashed him on the AL East. Geez.
_Lefty - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 06:46 PM EDT (#47320) #
Zambrano has been rumoured to be dealt for the past week or so. Even though he has unharnessed talent I think he was driving Sweet Lou batty. Kazmir looks to have the stuff to be the Rays 1 starter within the next two seasons.

Boy watch out for the Devil Rays. They are going to be tough.
_Lefty - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 06:49 PM EDT (#47321) #
With respect to the Fullmer deal, this will allow them to get more at bats for their surplus outfielder, Mench in particular. That in itself makes this a good deal for this season alone. Though I am not certain the Rangers are finished dealing yet. They didn't get Benson but they still need a starter or two even.
_Brent - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 06:51 PM EDT (#47322) #
Also reported on ESPN:


ESPN.com news services
New York Mets: The Mets have acquired Pirates' right-hander Kris Benson and a minor leaguer in a three-team trade.

Pittsburgh gets third baseman Ty Wigginton and right-handed pitching prospect Matt Peterson from the Mets and third baseman Jose Bautista from the Royals. Kansas City gets Mets catching prospect Justin Huber.


So that means the Mets have traded away Kazmir, Huber and Peterson in the same day. Wow. Plus the Royals have picked up their second catching prospect. So who sticks at catcher: Huber or Buck?
_Brent - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 06:52 PM EDT (#47323) #
Here is the link for the report above.
_Rob - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 06:52 PM EDT (#47324) #
What? Wasn't Kazmir the god of pitching prospects? And isn't Victor Zambrano wilder than...anyone?!?

There must be some reason for the Mets to make this trade, but it escapes me.
_Brent - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 06:58 PM EDT (#47325) #
Yeah, there's a reason: Duquette.

The Duke doesn't like them pesky prospects lying around. At least not when they can fetch a shiny veteran.
_Lefty - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 07:01 PM EDT (#47326) #
I think Huber will report to Omaha and likely called up in September. He'll have a chance to compete for the job in 05 but is already in AAA. Buck hasn't done anything to cement his job last time I checked.
_Brent - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 07:07 PM EDT (#47327) #
I'm still shocked that the Mets traded Kazmir, for Zambrano no less.

I believe it was last year that Gammons reported that JP was asking the moon for some of his players. And this proves it, dreams sometimes do come true.
_Rob - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 07:12 PM EDT (#47328) #
So that means the Mets have traded away Kazmir, Huber and Peterson in the same day.

I mean, come on.

What is the Toronto equivalent of trading away Kazmir/Huber/Peterson? I don't know the Mets' prospects that well.
Would it be like trading away McGowan (pre-TJ), Quiroz, and League?
_Mick - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 07:16 PM EDT (#47329) #
Let's be clear. To acquire Zambrano, the Mets traded away Kazmir and another player.
_Rob - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 07:18 PM EDT (#47330) #
Well, Mick, it was actually:

To acquire Zambrano and Fortunado, the Mets traded away Kazmir and another player.

;)
_Mick - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 07:19 PM EDT (#47331) #
Yes, you're right. I misread my own posting. That's like not recognizing your own reflection in a puddle, right?
_Gwyn - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 07:21 PM EDT (#47332) #
Rob, it's not quite that bad, but, it's close. BPro had Kazmir at 12 and Huber as an 'honourable mention' before the season.
_Lefty - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 07:26 PM EDT (#47333) #
I think on the basis of Huber's season and age he will likely make more than honourable mention next yr.

Garciaparra is apprently not in the Bo-Sox's starting lineup tonite. The games have truly begun I think.
_Brent - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#47334) #
Why did this trade happen? The only reason I can think of is that Zambrano had two solid games against the Yankees and Duquette thought to himself, "I gotta get me some of that!"

Then again, Zambrano had one disappointing start against the Yankees too (6 IP, 7 BB, 7 K, 5 ER).
_Rob - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 07:29 PM EDT (#47335) #
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore?gid=240730109
Starting at SS for the Boston Red Sox tonight (COMN):Ricky Gutiérrez. So, where is Nomah going?
_Ryan Day - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 07:32 PM EDT (#47336) #
Yow. That's some wacky trading by the Mets. They're 6 back of the Braves and 7.5 back of the Padres for the Wild Card. Are Zambrano & Benson really good enough to make up that difference? And isn't Benson a FA after the season, too?

I suppose Zambrano could be an amazing pitcher if he could just keep the ball over the plate... but Kazmir? Unless Kazmir breaks down soon, this doesn't look like a great day for the Mets.
_miVulgar - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 07:35 PM EDT (#47337) #
I'm having a hard time 'slotting' Kazmir.

Would you guys have done Miguel Batista for Kazmir?
_Brent - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 07:57 PM EDT (#47338) #
Would you guys have done Miguel Batista for Kazmir?

I have to run, so I'll make my points real quick. Without factoring the fact that you are trading a newly signed free agent, I would do this deal.

I feel that Batista is not going improve by leaps and bounds over his current form (not that it is bad or anything) in the next couple of years. But a 1-2-3 punch of HLH-Kazmir-McGowan is really really scary, even if it only becomes scary in 3 years.
robertdudek - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 08:01 PM EDT (#47339) #
No I wouldn't do the deal. An above average major league starter is always worth more than a pithcing prospect as young as Kazmir. The most likely destination for Kazmir is the bullpen, and that dampens his expected value somewhat.
_Kristian - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 08:01 PM EDT (#47340) #
Nomar is having problems with his achilles tendon again so it dosent look like he is going anywhere. From what I have read and heard on Kazmir he might project more to a closer to keep him healthy long term but it was probably the equivalent of the Jays trading Rosario or a Quiroz.
_Brent - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#47341) #
I lied about going. ;) My friend said he would pick me up in about a minute, but that wasn't exactly truthful.

The most likely destination for Kazmir is the bullpen

Really? I must admit that I don't follow the Mets that closely, but that is the first I have heard of that. Is that because of his size (6'0, 170)?
_Gwyn - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 08:09 PM EDT (#47342) #
Brent, it's largely the size with Kazmir, but, also i think a lack of pitches. I don't think he has much to back his fastball.
_Ryan Day - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 08:18 PM EDT (#47343) #
Mind you, when people talk about moving Kazmir to the bullpen, they generally start comparing him to Billy Wagner.
_Brent - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 08:19 PM EDT (#47344) #
Here is a scouting report from BA at the start of the year.

They say his fastball-slider combination is deadly, and then go on to say that he "shows a major league changeup at times". I guess the "at times" part is the kicker. Someone on Primer said that he had a tender elbow at the start of the year as well.

All of a sudden, my deal doesn't look so good. ;)

I guess it all depends on how risk tolerant you are. With a bigger budget, I'm sure the deal would be a green light, since you could probably sign another Batista somewhere down the line. But in the Jays case, you really can't gamble with that sort of promise. There is a certainty that comes along with Batista that you can't get with Kazmir.

On the other hand, what promise! Kazmir shows some electric stuff. If he can stay in the starting rotation, he has a much higher ceiling than Batista.

I can see where the Jays would be cautious in making such a deal.
Thomas - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 08:22 PM EDT (#47345) #
I think he has a good slider too, doesn't he? But I was under the impression he was a two-pitch pitcher.
Thomas - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 08:37 PM EDT (#47346) #
I think he has a good slider too, doesn't he? But I was under the impression he was a two-pitch pitcher.

Actually, BP 2003 says he has a changeup he is learning when and how to throw. I don't have my 2004 handy, and I'm quite lazy. But it seems to me that he was at least working on a third effective pitch, which leads me to believe the size or some other factor is the main reason he's heading to the pen.
Pistol - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 08:40 PM EDT (#47347) #
Heckle this
Thomas - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 08:40 PM EDT (#47348) #
Sorry about the double post, I was having internet connection problems, and hence I didn't see Brent's recap of the same info.
Thomas - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 08:51 PM EDT (#47349) #
What are the odds that Ringolsby will have to mention that DePodesta wanted a "Moneyball" prospect in the deal, so he had to get Bill Murphy instead of someone else?
Pistol - Friday, July 30 2004 @ 10:38 PM EDT (#47350) #
I just realized my 'heckle this' comment was in the wrong thread.......
_jgadfly - Saturday, July 31 2004 @ 12:15 AM EDT (#47351) #
...does anyone see Choi plus prospect coming this way for unowho ?
_Cristian - Saturday, July 31 2004 @ 12:36 AM EDT (#47352) #
The thought crossed my mind as well, jgadfly. However, this year Choi has played better and cheaper than Delgado. Why would the Dodgers not just keep Choi?

In other news, I guess Allan Baird soured on John Buck pretty quickly. He somehow managed to wedge himself into the Mets deals and walked away with Justin Huber. All he had to give up was Rule 5 waiver pickup Jose Bautista. Not too shabby Mr. Baird.

By the way, has JP made a Billy Beane patented "f*ckn' A trade" during his tenure yet? I love what JP has done up to know but has he ever fleeced a rival GM yet? The closest move that comes to mind is pawning Mondesi to the Yankees.
robertdudek - Saturday, July 31 2004 @ 10:07 AM EDT (#47353) #
Clearly the best move so far is Miller and Hinske for Koch.
_Rob - Saturday, July 31 2004 @ 12:38 PM EDT (#47354) #
Clearly the best move so far is Miller and Hinske for Koch.

It's a great trade, but I'm not sure it's a "F*ckin' A Trade". Isn't that where GM #1 gets exactly what he wants and GM #2 is left behind with nothing?
Beane didn't exactly get nothing out of Koch. He got Keith Foulke, which seems to be more of that kind of trade (Foulke-for-Koch, that is).
robertdudek - Saturday, July 31 2004 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#47355) #
I don't care what labels you apply to it, it was a very good trade for the Jays. And I think it's better when both sides get something out of the deal - it means that it is more likely that that team will trade with you again.
_Rob - Saturday, July 31 2004 @ 01:21 PM EDT (#47356) #
Robert, I agree that it was a very good trade - for both Oakland and Toronto. My impression from Moneyball is that a "F*ckin' A Trade" is something like this:
Chicago White Sox traded Ray Durham and cash to Oakland Athletics in exchange for Jon Adkins.

It's all semantics, though. The Miller/Hinske-Koch trade is a very good one nonetheless.
Pistol - Saturday, July 31 2004 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#47357) #
It's a great trade, but I'm not sure it's a "F*ckin' A Trade". Isn't that where GM #1 gets exactly what he wants and GM #2 is left behind with nothing?

No. A "F'N A Trade" is more refering to a trade that really strengthens a team and makes their opponents worry in the homestretch. Both teams could do well in the trade (presumably team #2 is getting prospects).

With the Jays not really being in playoff contention there's really been no oppurtunity to make one.

And FWIW, I think the Kielty for Lilly might work out better than the Koch trade (although not as much when salaries are factored in).
_Cristian - Saturday, July 31 2004 @ 02:34 PM EDT (#47358) #
By an "F'n A Trade" I meant a trade that makes everyone in baseball wonder what the other GM was smoking. The reaction to the Koch deal was that Miller and Hinske were blocked in the A's org therefore the trade was defensible even if the A's overpaid.
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