Starting lineups for today:

Toronto N.Y.Yankees
1 Reed Johnson, LF Bernie Williams, CF
2 Frank Catalanotto, DH Miguel Cairo, 2B
3 Vernon Wells, CF Gary Sheffield, RF
4 Carlos Delgado, 1B Alex Rodriguez, 3B
5 Eric Hinske, 3B Ruben Sierra, DH
6 Gregg Zaun, C Hideki Matsui, LF
7 Alexis Rios, RF Tony Clark, 1B
8 Chris Gomez, SS John Flaherty, C
9 Frank Menechino, 2B Enrique Wilson, SS

oops...

Toronto
1 Reed Johnson, LF
2 Frank Catalanotto, DH
3 Vernon Wells, CF
4 Carlos Delgado, 1B
5 Eric Hinske, 3B
6 Gregg Zaun, C
7 Alexis Rios, RF
8 Chris Gomez, SS
9 Frank Menechino, 2B

N.Y. Yankees
1 Bernie Williams, CF
2 Miguel Cairo, 2B
3 Gary Sheffield, RF
4 Alex Rodriguez, 3B
5 Ruben Sierra, DH
6 Hideki Matsui, LF
7 Tony Clark, 1B
8 John Flaherty, C
9 Enrique Wilson, SS

Terrific song. I've parodied it many times, including one that was scheduled to be published in Baseball Weekly but got bumped by a trade story. Dang.

Anyway, in the original:
I'm talkin' baseball!
Like Reggie, Quisenberry.
Talkin' baseball!
Carew and Gaylord Perry,
Seaver, Garvey, Schmidt and Vida Blue,
If Cooperstown is calling, it's no fluke.

Reggie, Carew, Perry, Seaver, Schmidt: yep
Quiz, Garvey, Blue: nope

So Cashman was 5-for-8 (.625) on HOF calls for active players in 1981. Not bad.

I love the Simpsons version of the song (also sung by Cashman):

Well, Mr. Burns had done it. [Burns laughs]
The power plant had won it. [Charlie scores winning run]
With Roger Clemens clucking
all the while. [Clemens clucking on the mound]
Mike Scioscia's tragic illness
made us smile. [Scioscia being Geigered]
While Wade Boggs lay unconscious on
the barroom tile. [Barney punches Boggs]

We're talkin'...
Softball. [Various people hit the ball]
From Maine to San Diego.
Talking'... [Homer's slo-mo homer]
Softball.
Mattingly and Canseco. [Mattingly answers the door]
[Canseco heads into the fire]
Ken Griffey's grotesquely swollen jaw. [Griffey wheeled into the hospital]
Steve Sax and his run-in with the law. [Sax arrested and in the clink]
We're talkin' Homer... [Homer tips his cap]
Ozzie, and the Straw. [Smith at bunting practice]
[Strawberry lands after leaping catch]

We're talkin'...
Softball. [Beer warmups]
From Maine to San Diego. [Apu and another man pitch]
Talkin'...
Softball. [Burns gives the signals]
Mattingly and Canseco. [Mattingly's haircut]
[Canseco rescues a dryer]
Ken Griffey's grotesquely swollen jaw. [Clips of Griffey swilling tonic]
Steve Sax and his run-in with the law. [Police car in rear-view mirror]
We're talkin' Homer... [Homer's game-winning hit-by-pitch]
Ozzie, and the Straw. [Smith falling]
[Strawberry sheds a tear]

Is Hudson not playing because of platoon splits or something? Or just because he isn't hitting at the moment?

Another game I can watch live. What a treat. Shame about last night.

Kevin Federick has been called up.

...and File went down to make room.

OK, so who's off the 40-man?

I'll start a new thread RE: the roster move. Just give me a couple minutes.

...and Estelella was moved from the 15-day DL to the 60-day DL to make room on the 40-man roster.

The best part of that Simpsons episode is when Mr. Burns is demonstrating bunting--the ball hits his bat and he goes flying back to the backstop.

The head coach of our High School baseball team is a former Division 1 pitcher. As his assistant coach I often catch him before he throws BP. One time he let it rip and it nearly threw me to the backstop.

When I got back on my feet, the only thing I could think of saying was "Exxxxcellllent"!

"Mattingly, cut those sideburns!"

"I still like him better than Steinbrenner."

Now that's a nice start.

Burns after lifting Darryl Strawberry for Homer, and hearing Strawberry's objections

"I'm playing the percentages. It's what smart managers do."

Also classic, "If I tap my belt buckle not once, not twice, but thrice..."

Now that's a VERY nice start.

Two on, none out. Time for the Jays to make a good start to the game! Middle of the order need to produce...

Come on, Super Vernon! You can do it!

Full count...good work Vernon...now FINISH HIM!

Hey, today they're booing Delgado! They really weren't yesterday. Must've made TV last night or something.

Let's hope it inspires him to smack a ball somewhere good.

Over in the Expos game, David Wright just collected his first big league hit.

http://www.snpp.com/episodes/8F13.html
COMN for that entire Simpsons episode. That was a good one.

As promised, I've started a new thread for the roster move.

Oh dear, two men left on base again!

Could anything be more frustrating? Why are the Jays doing this to us? First and third none out with Wells, Delgado and Hinske-and K, K, dribbler 1-3 putout? And I'd really rather see Rios in the 6 spot rather than Zaun. At least Zaun's out of that 5 spot.

"I'm playing the percentages. It's what smart managers do."

Montgomery Burns ... the proto-Billy Beane.

That Simpsons episode is probably the greatest Simpsons episode ever.

A first-inning bunt? Thanks, Joe!

Lilly gets a real nice Theodore Roosevelt for that one.

Two nice TR's!

Very good first inning by Lilly. We really do have a decent starting rotation this year (injuries aside). If we had known how strong the rotation was going to be when the year started we would probably have been predicting certain playoff places!

The Springfield Nuclear Power Plant Zephyrs (AVG/OBP/SLG, HR/SB):

Sax 2B         .281/.335/.358, 54/444
Boggs 3B       .328/.415/.443, 118/24
Strawberry RF  .259/.357/.505, 335/221
Canseco LF     .266/.353/.515, 462/200
Mattingly 1B   .307/.358/.471, 222/14
Griffey Jr. CF .294/.379/.562, 481/177 (through 2003)                          
Scioscia C     .259/.344/.356, 68/29
Smith SS       .262/.337/.328, 28/580
Clemens P      (I think you all know who he is)

Hey guys, anyone have a radio link they can post for this game?

That Simpsons episode is probably the greatest Simpsons episode ever.

Cape Feare
Power Plant Strike
Krusty gets Cancelled
You Only Move Twice
Marge vs. The Monorail
The B Sharps
The Stonecutters
Homer at the Bat
Flaming Moe's
Deep Space Homer

It's Top Ten.

I would have to add:

A Streetcar Named Marge
Life on the Fast Lane
Homers Enemy
Theres no disgrace like home (just for the scene where they are giving each other electric shocks in Dr Marvin Monroes)

El Duque continues to throw first pitch balls and get away with it. 7 of the first 9 hitters had a 1-0 count and only Frankie C got a hit of the 7.

Hey guys, anyone have a radio link they can post for this game

Dang, CJCS Stratford no longer works :(

Any other ideas?

You Only Move Twice

The third act of this episode is probably the funniest ten minutes in cartoon history.

There's a post early in yesterday's game thread with a bunch of links for internet radio broadcasts.

Ho Ho Ho. The TV commentators are talking about the Yankees winning percentage with and without Jeter playing.

When he plays they are at .609. When he doesn't (injury or whatever) they are .624.

The commentators claim that this "just shows how stupid stats are" -- and I'll accept that this is almost certainly a non-significant statistic due to small sample size on the .624 figure (I haven't worked it out). But their reasoning is hilarious.

"You have a lot more games with Jeter in than out, therefore you expect to lose more of those games, therefore the winning %age will be lower". Teehee.

Or even "you have to ignore those stats because clearly the Yankees are better with Jeter on the field". Can't they accept that maybe he is a not-very-good SS and maybe costs them the occassional win?

Here's the site for internet broadcasts:

http://www.thegamelive.com/

By the way, has El Duque got some kind of amazing change-up going today to get all of these swinging strikes?

Any other ideas?

Get mlb game day audio, its reasonably priced and you can listen to every game. Although it is anoying when the games are on other stations when they shouldnt be.

El Duque has a lot of good off-speed stuff varying from 60 to 88, and side-to-side movement on his fastball. I didn't watch the last inning closely (am making dinner) but in the first two he looked very nasty indeed.

Cape Feare definitely #1.

That rake part is classic.

WHACK! Ughhh....

Lilly's pitching very well but his pitchcount is again a problem. At 53 with only 2 out in the 3rd, the Jays may be lucky to get 6 innings out of him. The pen should be OK - at least Chulk, Adams and Frasor should be able to go today.

You Only Move Twice definitely #1

Cape fear probly around 5

I'm watching this on MLB so I can only imangine El Duque's crazy leg kick striking out Rios.

'You Only Move Twice' great as well.

"Ingenious isn't it, Mr. Bont?"
Sean Connery like voice: "Scoprio yer mad.."

Did they have to say it? Did they have to say it?

"Homer the Heretic" definitely needs to be in the top five.

So the guy goes on and on about how he always calls no-nos and doesn't worry about jinxes - and the next batter drops on in.

Did they have to say it? Did they have to say it?

Did you have to write it?:)

Kidding, of course. Neither I nor Fawaz K have any knowledge as to precisely what "it" is. Honest, Baseball Gods, it never crossed our minds.

Curses! Foiled again! Still, what are the odds of no hitting the YANKEES...

And Sierra singles as I type.

Oops, did I say no hitting? I meant no hitting any Yankee batters, as in HBP. Heh heh heh...

Still, what are the odds of no hitting the YANKEES

Based on the Yanks' .264 team batting average:

1-.264 = .736
.736^27 = .000255
1/.000255 = 3929

The odds of no-hitting the Yankees are 1 in 3929

Or once every 24.25 seasons.

I'm afraid that isn't quite right because it doesn't take walks into account. You might face more than 27 batters in a no-hitter.

'The Computer Wore Meance Shoes' would make my Top Ten.

Homer gets his own website, and writes stories under the alias of
Mr. X.

Looks like another pitching duel.

Oh wait hang on, batting average doesn't include walks does it, so maybe it is okay. I need to think about that.

No-hitters might have walks, errors or HBP in them, so the probable number of batter's faced is going to be higher and the odds even lower.

Andrew...but in the plate appearances where a player did walk or get hit or get aboard on an error, he might have gotten a hit so they do need to be included.

It's higher than that, because pitchers' batting average against varies from pitcher to pitcher, such that the better pitchers in the league have an exponentially better chance of no-hitting the Yankees than the average pitcher, and the ones below average have almost no chance.

If you break it down and then sum up the individual chances, the overall odds should be better than if every pitcher was the same.

Come to think of it, the Yankees lineup changes, so that will improve the odds a little bit because of the variance there too.

Keep in mind that each individual batter isn't a .264 hitter, so the real probability could be much different.

Suppose you had 1 player who always got a hit, and 8 players who never got a hit, so the team would have a .111 batting average. Using the method aboce, the calulation would suggest that there's a positive probability of the pitcher throwing a no-hitter, which is clearly incorrect by the way we'e defined the players.

above, not aboce. :)

Well, back in 1991, or 1992, the eventual AL East champion Blue Jays were no hit by 70 year old Nolan Ryan. Granted, he was Nolan Ryan...

If we're going by batting average, then the Tigers would be even harder to no hit than the Yankees? If that's true, I will fall over in my chair laughing with delight.

These are all good points. Moffatt, your example is of course correct but it won't make a huge difference here as all the batting averages are fairly close (even .200-.300 is a pretty small spread). Correlation between a batter's performance against a certain pitcher is also a small effect.

I think that Leigh's original answer is right (plus or minus the small errors accounted for by the above effects, which will not change the order of magnitude). This is exactly the sort of question I might set my first years. But since I am at home and try not to work when I'm out of work and am knackered anyway I'm going to force myself not to consider the problem further.

Why does a no-hitter happen as often as it does, then? (it seems to be one or more a season). Some teams have lower average than the Yankees obviously. Also performances among the whole team are fairly highly correlated because on some days a pitcher just has his stuff together. And there are a lot of games played -- 162 by each team, 30 teams.

Wow, they're giving it to Carlos.

Does Vernon think he's playing rounders? Jerry sounded absolutely baffled at his last swing.

Emerald,

The correct measure of how easy a team is to no-hit is approximately the product of 1-minus each player's batting average, which is not the same as the average batting average.

Homer gets his own website, and writes stories under the alias of
Mr. X.

You mean this website?

Chris Gomez: 228 AB, .700 OPS
Carlos Delgado: 229 AB, .700 OPS

(counting today's game thus far)

Maybe Gomez can play 1B for us next year... :)

Andrew K, all of the above calculations deal with variations among hitters. There are equally important variations among pitchers, most importantly by strikeout and popup rate (these are outcomes that are turned into outs 98% or more, and otherwise are not charged to the pitcher). Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Nolan Ryan and Sandy Koufax account for a disproportionate number of no-hitters primarily because of their ability to strike out batters and induce pop-ups at a much higher than average rate. That is why there are more no-hitters than you might expect if average pitchers pitched every game.

I suppose no hitters depend on the pitcher having his stuff working, the batters not swinging the bat well, a fluke, or a combination of all three. I've obviously never thrown one, so I wouldn't know.

Andrew K

Try to figure out the likehood of a no-hitter happened when the expected batting average is .200.

Suppose for a moment that most no-hitters occur during ideal conditions and in these conditions the odds of getting a hit in a given AB is .200.

Using .800^27 gives you approximately 1 in 413 chances under these conditions.

Now suppose that such conditions occur in 10% of starts - that gives 486 such situations in a 30 team, 162-game majors. Of course no hitters can occur in some of the other 90% of starts, such that we'd probably get a range of 2 to 3 no-hitters a year.

(For example, let's say 30% of games provide for a .235 expected hit rate. The same calculations provide for 1458 opporunities and a probability of 1 in 1384. That brings us up to about 2.3 no hitters without considering the other 60% of games.)

By playing with these parameters a little we can get precisely the number of no-hitters that empirically occur.

I'm not sure if Clemens has ever had a no hitter, but either way I see your point. The odds of throwing one variate from player to player. There's no one universial odds of tossing a no no.

(Ecch, bad grammar on my part there)

Delgado just got a hearty boo when he came onto the field after God Bless America.

I really don't want to get into more probability in my time off work, but...

Yes Mike you are right of course. But the variation between good and average pitchers isn't really that high. Pitchers' batting-average-against seems to vary by a somewhat similar amount to hitters' batting average so the effect on the number of no-hitters will be similar. (Also "what are the chances of a no-hitter" doesn't specify the pitcher and whether they are average or great or picked at random). I am sure that the correlation between a pitcher's performance in one day will outweigh the other effects and are hard to account for numerically.

And on reflection I think it is indeed the batting average which is almost entirely the relevant stat -- the only problem being that it debits the batter when he reaches on an error (I understand) whereas this should really be counted like a walk or HBP as a non-event for the purposes of determining whether a game is a no-hitter or not.

If you read the question another way -- what are the chances of no-hitting the team called the Yankees -- then we can estimate it by counting how many times it ever happened and dividing by the number of games. Of course. We can even form a confidence interval if it means anything.

How many scoreless innings have the Jays had in the afternoon now?

Robert, thanks for that post. It's good to see those figures. The only thing is that although there are 162 games per team and 30 teams, you have to divide that figure by 2 to account for the fact that each game has two teams... :)

The Jays need a partial eclipse of the sun badly.

Wow. My head hurts.

I knew the aboce (that one's for you, Moffatt) formula didn't entail all of the variables, etc.

Spicol's point is the one that has me really thinking.

I know that using batting average only is too simple, but I lack the stats background that I wish I had. Why did I use BA? Because I have a BA.

NYY left on base: 4

TOR left on base: 12.

It's probably just how good Lilly's been, but still, if just one of those runners scores, I bet we win this game.

I'd be curious to see how many Yankees were standing for GBA -- was every single one of them out there and accounted for?

Jeepers what a good game.

Sorry for my abscence the previous week (as if anyone noticed) my computer was falling apart faster than a mexican space shuttle.

Shame I can't actually SEE this game..

The Yankees TV commentators says that there was a rumour in some newspaper that Boston was interested in Terry Adams. Could it be true? Could we get Youkilis in a trade? hehe.

I knew the aboce (that one's for you, Moffatt)

Thanks. I like "aboce". Could mean anything.

I got kicked out of my aboce when I couldn't pay the rent

Yikes, Tosca brings in Adams after Lilly loads the bases with 2 outs. I don't like this.

Watch your mouth or I'll kick you in the aboce.

What? Where's Lilly? Adams? Why Adams? Nooooooo!!!!!!

Curse the lack of TV coverage for this game, Hmph.

Heh, when I heard Adams was coming in, I said "the boys are not going to like this..."

Andrew K, I don't know if news of this arrived in the UK, but yesterday, the renowned physicist Stephen Hawking announced that he lost a bet with another physicist regarding a theory of what happens to matter that enters a black hole. The other physicist's return on the bet: a copy of "Total Baseball".

Yikes, Tosca brings in Adams after Lilly loads the bases with 2 outs. I don't like this.

Well, actually it's two on, two out, but why on *earth* do you trade Flaherty for Posada??? Against Adams, with runners on? I know that the bullpen is tired, but still...

What truly baffles the mind is this: what are the odds of the Jays no-hitting a team in a game in which Terry Adams makes an appearance?

Andrew K,

No. In each game there are TWO chances for a no-hitter.

What truly baffles the mind is this: what are the odds of the Jays no-hitting a team in a game in which Terry Adams makes an appearance?

Lim x -> infinity 1/x

Whew!

Nice work, Terry!

Mike,

Yes indeed it was reported in the press; Hawking is supposed to have tried to persuade him to accept a book on the history of cricket, to no avail. The physicists were talking about it over lunch today. I understand most of maths words but theoretical physics seems to apply them in the weirdest way so Hawking's theory is beyond me.

Whew. I guess that worked out okay.

Andrew K, No. In each game there are TWO chances for a no-hitter.


Oh my. So there is. I need hand back my probability teaching license.

Has a double no hitter ever happened?

Andrew

The physics isn't that bad. Essentially black holes don't destroy information, they retain all conserved quantities (mass, charge, baryon number, et cetera)

Have Wells and Delgado cursed the Jays offence?

Eversince both came back the Jays have only scored 15 runs in 66 innings.

2 runs a game ain't going to win ya too many ball games.

Also with the way Delgado is playing if he keeps this up I have a hard time seeing a club offering him anything more than 7-8 mil a season.

Another great game for Toronto pitching, another no decision. Grumble grumble, curse the high leg kicked one!

Where's Nigel?

What are the odds of the Jays winning now with both bullpens in?

For the purposes of a no-hitter, walks and HBP are non-events. Errors (AB which do not result in an out but are not hits) are balanced somewhat by the fact that an out can occur without an AB (i.e. a dp, baserunning error or caught stealing).

Ron,

It was like that at the start of the year. Delgado was a K machine.

I wonder how much one bad season, or two-third of a season, affects a players' value when they have many years good performance behind them.

The venom we all have for Adams, someone who statistically has pitched decently this year, is pretty incredible.

I don't like him either, and I cringe just like the rest of you, but we're awfully hard on the guy.

What a discussion. Black holes and the Jays offense!

Could we get Youkilis in a trade? hehe.

If you mean Traianos Youkilis, the guy who runs the gyro stand outside Fenway Park, then yes, Terry Adams could fetch him. If you mean Kevin, not so much.

I know Andrew was kidding, but we should keep in mind that the return for Adams, Ligtenberg or any of the other underachieving veteran relievers is likely to be little more than a handshake, or Scott Wiggins, whichever is closer. The benefit of unloading these guys would be to make room for younger arms in the big-league pen -- but considering that Kevin Frederick was the only solid reliever at Syracuse, it's not as if there's a flotilla of talent waiting in the wings. I expect many of the veterans to finish the season in Toronto; the fact remains that they're each capable of pitching better than this, and in order to get a major-league contract next year, they'll have to.

Not that I'm grumbling or anything.

Say, wasn't Stephen Hawking on a Simpsons episode? (he he!)

Offence?

So that's what happened to the last year's offense. Instead of being transported to an alternate dimension it simply got released in an unrecognizable form.

I'm disturbed at Delgado's AB's right now. He's hacking away and it looks like he's mailed it in. The usually Delgado is a lot more patience with a good eye, thus he's OBP is always around .400

I'm interested in his value. You could make a case he has bad knees and is in the downside of his career. Case in point is this season.

Craig B,

Has Adams genuinely pitched well or has he just scored other pitchers' earned runs but few of his own?

That grand slam homer has made a lasting impression on me. I guess I just don't like the cut of his jib.

Dear Terry Adams:

We've been hard on you this year, even in the Cheer Club. By way of apology, I'd like to make you a deal: every time you do what you just did -- show up in a tough situation and get out of the inning without allowing a run to score -- the Cheer Club will buy you a beer. And in case you think this is a minor, minor deal, we will buy you a beer from the concession stands at SkyDome. That's how serious we are, Terry, we're offering you an eight dollar beer every time you save the team's bacon.

If you're interested, show up in 518.

Sincerely,

Named For Hank
Cheer Club Fun Co-ordinator

And something else: if you really want to see Adams dealt for something of value, then you should welcome his appearance in close games and root hard for him to succeed. The chances of getting him off the roster in exchange for non-neglible talent depends entirely on how effective he is in high-pressure situations for the next one to four weeks.

Say, maybe if the radiation from a black hole were blasted at the Blue Jays offence, they would become superhuman, making hitting an easy task and never making an out. It worked for the Hulk! (I think)

Well, Aaron is putting his money where our mouths are. He's just incentivised Adams' contract. Let's hope it works. Could we do the same for Delgado do you think?

Could we do the same for Delgado do you think?

Sure. I think we'd have to offer Carlos sushi. The good news is that 1) the sushi at SkyDome is surprisingly edible, and 2) it costs the same as beer.

CHULKAMANIAAAAAAAA!

When the tv schedule was released this season I thought every Yanks and Sox game was going to be on tv. I'm positive about this.

Well why isn't todays game on tv then?

What a discussion. Black holes and the Jays offense!

Are you sure its not Black Jays and offensive holes?

Adams has been slightly below decent, I think: That 1.68 WHIP and .291 BAA brings my spirits down.

What seems to happen is this: He pitches well enough to impress Tosca. Tosca puts him into a high-pressure situation. He explodes, which annoys us all.

Ron, the game is on some American station called CBS2. I'm getting it on mlb.tv. It has weird silly theme music.

I know we've all seen scary numbers, but in the past 31 innings, the Jays have 3 runs. that's less than 1 run every ten innings.

If you mean Traianos Youkilis, the guy who runs the gyro stand outside Fenway Park, then yes, Terry Adams could fetch him. If you mean Kevin, not so much.

Wait, Traianos is available?!?! Pull the trigger!

Besides giving up a few too many walks and being unlucky on balls in play Adams has been pretty average this year.

That the Red Sox would be interested in him ought to tell you that there's something there that a first impression might not catch.

Well technicially everygame is on TV .... but I thought the game would be on Sportsnet or TSN...

maybe it's because of the weird start time.

Depriving most of the Jay fans of a pitchers duel.

Huh, the Yanks are using Rivera in a non-save situation before the Red Sox series this weekend. I wouldn't have guessed that.

For the purposes of a no-hitter, walks and HBP are non-events.

Really? I'd say otherwise...it's possible that the player could rap a hit before the walk or HBP occurs.

If the Red Sox throw a few Gyros in that deal then it's the steal of the year. Mmmmmmmmmmm.

So that's what happened to the last year's offense. Instead of being transported to an alternate dimension it simply got released in an unrecognizable form.

Don't physicists call some matter that is in "an unrecognizable form" dark matter. Somehow, that seems appropriate in this discussion.

No, we call this kind of offense a "virtual offense". It can exist for short periods, but then returns to the nothing from whence it came.

Are you sure its not Black Jays and offensive holes?

Everyone knows these are the White Jays:-)

That's exactly what the Blue Jays need to explain and fix their problems, a particle theory scientist. It would solve everything.

When the tv schedule was released this season I thought every Yanks and Sox game was going to be on tv. I'm positive about this.

The listing for today on my trusty Opening Day Fridge Magnet Schedule says that the game is radio-only, so they hadn't found a home for it by opening day.

I can understand it, though -- what kind of TV numbers do they get for day games?

Huh, the Yanks are using Rivera in a non-save situation before the Red Sox series this weekend. I wouldn't have guessed that.

They're in a tie game in the top of the ninth at home. There cannot be a save situation in this game. Even using the conventional modern definition of a closer, it makes sense to bring Rivera in now for 1 inning. It increases the chance that the Yankees win in the 9th without running through more of their bullpen.

NYY left on base: 4

TOR left on base: 12.

That's not possible. Through nine innings the Jays have had just six baserunners, and one was erased on a DP.

I think it counts each individual hitter stranding a runner, no matter the outs. So Hinske and Delgado probably stranded the same guys on base in the first inning. The actual LOB would have gone to Hinske in that inning, my apologizes.

Jerry's call there was priceless...he's talking about how Chulk and Zaun have gone slider-slider-slider-slider, then "FASTBALL! And it's...CALLED A BALL! Whoa."

YES!@!!

Man this is nerve wracking!

Work, check gameday, work, check gameday..

Come on Vinnie!

Damn!

Close.

Damn.

Oh, No.....

The season from hell continues...

Worst. Offense. Ever.

I'm sick of saying "this was a great pitcher's duel, it just didn't go the Jays way." When does it ever go the Jays way? How come ever pitcher has his GREAT OUTING against the Jays. It's simple.

This team can't hit

This team can't hit with RISP

****!

I feel like I jinxed Chuld with my earlier comment.

Baseball Gods, I'm sorry.

Anbybody listen to that hack Harold Reynolds last night on Baseball Tonight. He basically bemoaned the fact that non-elite players shouldn't be granted no-trade clauses with their long term contracts. He slagged specifically on Mike Sweeney & Carlos Delgado. He then called Carlos a "nice player." Reynolds is mad. Despite his struggles this year, Carlos still has the tools to turn it around.

Ah Vinnie. This has been a very bad season. We're losing and in a very demoralizing fashion.

Thanks for your illuminating and informative rubbing-of-salt-in-the-wounds, Dave.

3 runs in their last 3 games for the Jays.

So that's 3 runs in their last 32 innings.

Lovely!!

Tosca's goose is cooked. He won't survive this calamity. Write it down. He won't make August.

A buddy of mine, who's a yankee fan called me before Sierra's at bat and said "Chulk looks great, but Rueben is gonna end it with a bomb to center" This season really is from hell. Excuse me, I have to go burn my buddy at the stake.

Geez, Chulk threw that right over the plate.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

The rant podium is now open.

What was Tosca supposed to do? His guys can't hit.

Tosca is going to take the fall on account that his players have holes in their bats. Its sad but true. The accountability always falls on the manager unfortunately.

It really has been a disappointing few weeks. The thing about this game was that we never really looked like scoring. To be honest, nor did the Yankees, until they did...

We need Homer (Home Run) Simpson!

A very fine pitching performance today by the Jays against a formidable Yankee offense.

Lilly pitched a solid game, but unfortunately ran into pitch count problems a little earlier than he would have liked. Adams came in a stranded those two runners in the 7th, and despite the home run, Chulk came in and tossed 3 K's in 1 2/3 innings.

Despite the offensive woes, this is a big positive sign. Hopefully it is something to build off of.

NFH, I know I sound like I'm whining and in a way, yes I am.

I just think it's wrong to have pitcher after pitcher (minus Hentgen) throw gem after gem and just come away empty-handed. First David Bush, now Ted Lilly. This is getting to a point where it's almost predictable.

How the Jays didn't score in the first inning is beyond me. You've got men on 1st and 3rd and 3 of your best hitters coming up and neither of the first two can get the ball in the air, or hit the ball even into a DP to get a run in?

The pitching has been AMAZING, the transformation JP has done with that rotation is great, and that's a really bright note that I hope carries over into next season.

But a lot of these games that the Jays have lost in horrid fashion could have been had. Simply things in baseball not being executed, it's just so frustrating to watch.

If this year's pitching can carry over into next season, which I think it will, the Jays should be a fine ballclub... but with that said JP MUST go out and improve the offense.

Sorry if I sound like a whining frontrunner who always expects victory, but even the eternal optimists have to realize that this is disheartening.

I wonder if the rapid turnarounds in Texas, Detroit, Tampa and Cleveland will put pressure on J.P.'s schedule for success.

Simpson, Homer
Bats R, Throws R

6'0? 235 Pounds

Career Home runs: At least 12, in less than 80 AB.

Well, Mick, so you figure our Theodore Roosevelt is now back in pinstripes? If so, what would be appropriate compensation for such a fine pitcher, and a model citizen, if I might say so?

I can't wait to see the attendance numbers for the upcoming homestand. Its going to be really bad I guess.

3 shutouts in the last 6 games, a clean up hitter sliding perilously close to a BA of 200, Yikes, what next in the "season from hell"

I have to agree with DaveInNYC. There's a big difference in delivering a RBI single with a runner on second and hitting a sac fly. The first takes skill and cannot be achieved on a consistant basis. In the majors, players should routinely be able to deliver a sac fly. To pull a number out of my head 8 of 10 times. The pitchers obviously are trying to prevent it, so it's not automatic. The Jays must be hitting 4 / 10 in these situations. It's really low. How about Berg grounding into a DP against Oakland in extra innings.

I'm frustrated too, but what's the solution?

Switch the batting order around, bench Delgado and Wells for a few days? Does that really accomplish anything?

I advocate more suicide squeeze attempts with runners on third. LOL Third base has been become a maximum security prison for Jays' runners all years. Its baffling.

Sorry if I sound like a whining frontrunner who always expects victory, but even the eternal optimists have to realize that this is disheartening.

Man, it's so disheartening. Absolutely. And we all know it's disheartening. And I watch as fewer people show up for Cheer Club every week, and that's disheartening, too.

But what's the point of giving up? I'm not giving up.

That is one tired cat.

Mike, yes, I predicted in the trade thread that Lilly would go to the Yankees for Robinson Cano, a top middle infield prospect now in AA. I think that would be overpaying, frankly. However, if Duque keeps throwing like he's been throwing -- against all expectations -- then the Yanks may stand pat and count on Moose and Brown being back for the playoffs.

I know what will cheer everyone up: Hazel Mae.


If not, then I'm sure there are plenty of pictures of monkeys on the can.

I advocate more suicide squeeze attempts with runners on third. LOL Third base has been become a maximum security prison for Jays' runners all years. Its baffling.

No kidding. Ive lost count of how many times this year there's been a man on third with zero or one out and he gets stranded. It really is baffling. I have no explanation for the discrepancy in the Jays offence from last year to this year. Im just hoping it's a curse that will wear off by next season.

Has there ever been a double no-hitter? Yes, there has, just once in baseball history, back in the dead-ball era of 1917. I remember reading about it when I was a kid; a pitcher named Hippo and the heroics of a famous Olympic athlete. This from BaseballLibrary.com:

The Cubs lefthander Hippo Vaughn and righthander Fred Toney of the Reds toe the mound in Chicago for a one-of-a-kind game. The Reds put up an all righthanded batting order, benching Edd Roush, who will lead the NL with a .341 BA. At the end of 9, both pitchers have no-hitters. With one out in the top of the 10th, Larry Kopf lines the first hit of the game. One out later, Hal Chase lines to Cy Williams, who drops the ball for an error. Chase then steals 2B, and with runners on 2B and 3B, Jim Thorpe hits a swinging bunt near the mound. Vaughn picks it up and, with no play at 1B, fires home, but C Art Wilson, not expecting the throw, freezes and the ball hits his chest protector. Kopf slides in for the only run. Toney sets the Cubs down in order and has the 4th 10-inning no-hitter to date.

NFH, I'm not giving up, and I'm glad you aren't too.

But like the cat in that picture, I'm just tired of expecting any type of turnaround or anything to hang on to as a fan and not getting it. Splitting both of the 2 game series' would have been great for a team in the situation the Jays were but to get swept by the Yanks after the way Ted, Adams and even Chulk pitched makes you realize how bad the offense is.

Oh well, at least the Jays have the chance to beat up on Hendrickson tomorrow...

Mannnn ... we get a gut-bustingly cute photo of a kitty to cheer everyone up, and what's the reaction? "That is one tired cat."

I sense "projection" going on here.

I think Tosca is an honorable man but he is on borrowed time, being caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. The only drawback about dismissing him is the risk of losing his staff. Brian Butterfield is an excellent instructor. Gil Patterson has done a fine job with the pitchers. Thats the catch 22. I'd love to see a more energetic manager than Tosca to replace him, like a Grady Little. Tosca is too placid for my liking.

Try to take THAT one down!

Now that cat...that cat reminds me of poor production in the 3-4-5 spots of the Jays' batting order.

Kidding!

Great!! Some more cat gut for my violin!! Its been that sad a season.

http://www.thewolfshack.com
NFH, those are some cute kittens. And I don't even like cats.

The pattern on that kitten's forehead looks like the Devil.

I don't want to keep "rubbing salt into the wound" but just wondering what the worst loss of the season was to you guys?

My vote goes to that afternoon game against the Twins. Terry Adams allows the go ahead run to score on a grand slam by pinch-hitter Matt LeCroy.

That one hurt :(

Baaa, I'm not ready to give up either.

But gosh what was better, terrible pitching but unstoppable hitting, or remarkable pitching but dreadful hitting?

All this team needs is decent offence, with a decent offence and this kind of pitching, the Jays can win 90 games. Look at the Braves for ten years there.

But gosh what was better, terrible pitching but unstoppable hitting, or remarkable pitching but dreadful hitting?

I don't know Emerald, but I kind of liked the model that won 86 games last season, despite not having any pitching.

;)

Dave, the game that Spier blew against the twins at the metrodome earlier in the season. I believe it was 5-4. Jacque Jones hit the game winning two run blast to left. That was very depressing!!

The Teixeira home run. Blowing that 5 run lead in Texas. That's the night I truly gave up on the season. LeCroy is a close second.

On the bright side, the jays have seventeen games left against the Evil Empire. Let the litmus test for 2005 begin!!

OMG!! Outstanding Jacko!!

This board is being overrun by felines of all sizes, shapes and occupations.

Well, last year's hitting was better than this year's pitching, and this year's hitting has been much worse than last year's pitching. We need some sort of balance between them.

Nice picture.

It's the afternoon games that are the killers....

What is there to say? It's been an ugly season, pretty much any way you look at it. Even great pitching performances like today's seem to be wasted. When your team is going badly -- and this team has been going badly in remarkable stretches -- it just kills you as a fan. Nobody likes this, and nobody should like it. I don't think there's nothing wrong with venting about painful losses like this one.

Still and all, when the venting is finished, we have to try to see the good side. Lilly was brilliant today, and Much-Maligned Terry Adams (that turned out to be the ideal nickname) was really solid. The Jays got runners on base, and if they couldn't bring them home, well, at leaast they won half the battle.

It's tough waiting for results when you've worked as hard and as smartly as this organization has, and fans who commit their energioes to the team share that frutsration. All I can offer is that the early '80s were like this, and so were the late '80s and very early '90s -- growing pains are no less painful for that, but they do serve as milestones, and the Jays put another one behind them today.

I can also offer that this was one helluva game, and we can and should appreciate it on that level. And that that is one cute kitten.

Jordan,
Are you a Firefly fan?
Andrew

Okay, the kittens in the bathroom just won the Batter's Box Outstanding Graphic Image of the Year Award. If Ruben Sierra did nothing else good today, he at least made that photo possible to place in this thread. Kudos, Jacko!

Are you a Firefly fan?

Well, I watched a couple of episodes and thought it deserved a longer run, but I don't know that I'm a fan. How come? Did I unconsciously indicate a fanship in my last post?

kittens in the bathroom

This would also be an outstanding name for an alt-punk band.

The Jays offence is brutal but with Delgado gone next season who can JP bring in to improve it?

There's nobody at AAA I expect to come up and hit 30 HR's 100 RBI's next season.

And I don't know what mashers there are in the FA market after this season.

I do know JP has a lot of work to do for next season. I wouldn't be suprised if he changed more than half of the roster.

If the Jays have another poor season next year, I expect JP might get canned.

Konerko is a free agent. But I don't know what he would command or would even consider the jays.

Kittens are delicious.

I'm beginning to wonder if they shouldn't just try and steal home every time, especially in 1st and 3rd situations. The home run drought is still the most baffling aspect of the season to me, and it's especially frustrating because, well, what are the coaches going to do about it? I almost started laughing when I read that Sierra hit it out; their 4th outfielder would lead the Jays in HR.

If there's anything to be taken from these losses, it's that we can see how everything sets up for next year, and it looks good.

If the Jays have another poor season next year, I expect JP might get canned.

I really doubt it -- the ownership know that the team is rebuilding. They signed off on the team rebuilding. When the team loses a bunch of games while they're rebuilding, well, they already expect that to happen.

Unless you rebuild like the Yankees, it takes time and pain.

I find it hilarious that the fans were chanting USA USA after Delgado's hit. (According the recap on ESPN anyways).

Richie Sexson is also a free agent.

And I think that it's pretty much inconceivable that JP would get fired next year. No matter how the Jays do he's finishing his contract.

Jordan,
"not so much" is a Firefly expression.
Just curious.
Oh, well, at least I can watch my World Series tapes from '92 and '93!
Sigh.

I'm shocked at how much bad luck and how many tough breaks this team has had.

So is this kitten:



This team is building karma for the next good year.

Unless you rebuild like the Yankees, it takes time and pain.

actually, to rebuild like the yankees you need the commish to ban your ownwer from baseball for two years so the baseball people can develop talent (bernie williams, pettie, jeter, posada) and aquire the right veterans (key, wells, o'neil)

I'm waiting for a real good picture of Moffat's Unicorn delivering the M&M's

"not so much" is a Firefly expression.

Ah. I actually took it from West Wing. Great shows write alike....

How can anyone claim 'not so much'? It's not like "D'oh!" or "Eeexcellent", everybody uses 'not so much'.

The Jays offence is brutal but with Delgado gone next season who can JP bring in to improve it?

Trade for a Delgado replacement (or at least a LHB masher to platoon with Phelps). Morneau is not going to happen. How about:

Ben Broussard -- Hafner has clearly beat him out
Russell Branyan -- Cleveland has just about given up on him, still fairly young (28)
Ryan Howard -- blocked by Thome, only 24
Graham Koonce or Dan Johnson -- make another trade with Oakland?
Adrian Gonzalez -- more or less blocked in Texas, Rangers are desperate for pitching

I like the Adrian Gonzalez suggestion. Texas has two young first basemen that look like they could at least be league average, and no where to play them. (Unless Texeira moves to the outfield).

I'm not convinced on Ryan Howard, I think he strikes out a bit too much to be sucessful in the majors.

AAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

OK, let me explain.

I had to go out this afternoon, and I left GameDay running on the computer so he could follow the Jays game, while watching his Braves win in 10. (He's a Jays fan, but he's paying more attention to the Braves. The young must learn more than just how to suffer...)

Anyway, he conveniently left the GameDay screen up for me to look over when I got in, and I just saw the bottom of the 9th...

Braves win!! Braves win!!

Branyan was in Cincinatti too, and didn't impress anybody there either. Gonzalez or Howard sounds good.

I'm waiting for a real good picture of Moffat's Unicorn delivering the M&M's

Careful what you wish for.

Jacko, I had have that poster on my bathroom wall for years. Always good for a smile.

NFH, I knew you would come through,thanks

Okay, I apologize. I should have said "not so much" was used in Firefly and that is the only place that I have heard it.

No problem, Shadow, it's what I'm here for. It's amazing what you find when you plug "m&m crapping unicorn" into google's image search.

Hmm. Zero runs in 14 innings two days ago. Three runs yesterday. Shutout again today. Plate discipline shown early in today's game then completely abandoned halfway through letting Hernandez off the hook.

It's not about bearing down or giving effort. It's about focus and sticking to the plan. Right now this offence has no plan. Six baserunners in nine innings won't accomplish much. I have a feeling JP might use Delgado's money to bring in three or four new hitters because right now they're starting bench players on a daily basis. The lack of power is almost embarrassing.

NFH, thank you for the tired kitten. I've been basically been outside cycling since about 1:00, and I'm a tired kitty my own self.

That was nice to come home to!!

Plate discipline shown early in today's game then completely abandoned halfway through letting Hernandez off the hook.

It's not about bearing down or giving effort. It's about focus and sticking to the plan. Right now this offence has no plan.

Can't agree more, R Billie. Whether it's because they're pressing too much at the plate, or they're not listening to the coaching staff, or for some other less explicable reason, there is no offensive approach right now. It's maddening to watch them hack their way through these quick innings.

Patience is always in short supply in times of trouble, however. I suspect that the losing, or at least the lack of offensive production, is wearing on everyone's nerves.

I don't know Emerald, but I kind of liked the model that won 86 games last season, despite not having any pitching.

Hmmm...so maybe pitching and defense don't win championships.

Interesting.

BTW, I completely missed today's game. These early starts are killing me! Apparantly they're killing the Jays too. No runs in their last 23 afternoon innings? Yikes.

Just confirming that I repeatedly hear Josh on West Wing saying "not so much" and it seeped into my speech as well.

But my favourite was Sam Seaborn saying "bite me." I found that almost as useful as Captain Picard growling "merde"

Lucas may disagree with me here, but if I'm John Hart, I give Ricciardi Adrian Hernandez for Ted Lilly right now. In the long run, that trade would favor the Jays, but for all the talk of moving Tex to the OF and playing Hernandez at 1B next year, that Tex-Alf-Young-Hank infield looks pretty for a long time.

If I'm Grady Fuson and believing I still have a future with the Ranger organization, I don't make that deal.

How Many runners left in scoring position? 5?

Actually Konerko is not a free agent as mentioned above. He's signed through 2005 for more than $8 million. And the Rangers shot down an Adrian Gonzalez for Kris Benson trade, so I doubt they would give him up for Lilly. A first baseman who hits .280-.300 with 15 home runs isn't going to solve the problem anyway. Although it would improve the defense.

The way I understood it is the Rangers shot down an Adrian Gonzalez and Laynce Nix for Kris Benson trade. And that WOULD have been insane.

Just confirming that I repeatedly hear Josh on West Wing saying "not so much" and it seeped into my speech as well.

If the proliferation of "not so much", as common as that is, can be attributed to anyone, it's got to be Paul Reiser. And he stole it from the stereotypical middle-aged Jewish TV character.

The way I understood it is the Rangers shot down an Adrian Gonzalez and Laynce Nix for Kris Benson trade. And that WOULD have been insane.

Gibberingly so.

For some reason, I did not know until today that Kris Benson's first name is apparently "Kristin".

The way I understood it is the Rangers shot down an Adrian Gonzalez and Laynce Nix for Kris Benson trade. And that WOULD have been insane.

Thats the way I heard it. What might make sense for both Clubs is Mench for Lilly. Mench is very much available toiling in Buck's doghouse. This would make Sparky the forth OF and more valuable.

I think I'll post this on the trade guess thread as it makes sense for both clubs.

Finding next yrs. Lilly will be a problem for JP though. Rio's Mench and Wells is an exciting prospect.

Why would the Jays trade Lilly at this point? He's a lefty, has years of experience under his belt, is effective, and signed for just $3 million next season. Mench is also getting only occasional at bats in Texas so I have a hard time dealing a pretty good starting pitcher for a part time player who isn't that young.

Everything that can go wrong with the Jays is...

Rico Carty must be summoned to expel the evil spirits!

I sincerely hope that the Jays do not trade Batista or Lilly.

Unless we get Morneau of course. :)

Well if 25 is considered old then yeah, he's old. But the key is he will also be pretty cheap because he hasn't got a lot of major league time under his belt due to injury.

If Delgado walks this team is going to need some pop. I don't know what JP's thinking but if he is going to let him leave then he would have a youthful - reasonably cheap - productive OF. Sign a starter and a closer and move Cat to first.

I don't think that completely takes care of the power department. Depends on Phelps I guess, but there would still be salary room to get another DH/1st baseman.

Finally I think Batista and Lilly are inter-changable. Perhaps it would be better to offer Batista due to age but Bauxites have made pretty good arguements why you can't trade him. Perhaps due to the great price of each of the aforementioned starters the Jays might get more than Mench for either of those two. Texas might want to go for it all this year and they will not make it out of the A.L with their woeful pitching. At this stage their are only 7-10 identifiable sellers with all the other teams in the race. Seems to me this is a sellers market.

What's going to be easier to find on the free agent or trade market though. A player like Kevin Mench or a lefthanded starter of Lilly's ability making $3 million and still under control another year after that? Because if they trade Lilly they immediately have to replace him in the rotation and they need not just a pitcher but a good pitcher who can reasonably projected to provide near 200 innings.

After seeing how many arms this team has had to go through to get a decent starting front three, I think it would be rather inadvisable to deal one of them for a guy like Kevin Mench who although is good shouldn't be able to fetch a Ted Lilly and can probably be reasonably approximated by a Cat-like signing or two.

I'm thinking Phelps doesn't have much of a future on this team. Neither Tosca nor JP seem especially enamoured with his inconsistency and lack of patience to compensate.

Yeah, I'm not in disagreement with your line of thinking. I think it will come down to the list I'm sure already prepared by the team that indicates who are potential free agent targets, be they either pitchers or hitters. I was just trying to figure what was do-able in light of the previous trade discussions on this thread. However you look at it they have a serious power problem that is not working itself out this year and I'm not even thinking about Delgado's problems this season. But if the team goes without him next season the problem is serious. I don't think Hinske can be relied on to take up to much of the slack. This leaves Wells very very exposed. This team needs at least two power threats - notwithstanding Wells, if Delgado walks.

I think the team can afford to buy one off the market and they will have trade for the other.

The one burning question I have....

Why does Kris Benson have so much trade interest?

The guy is a number 4 pitcher at best. I've seen him play and there's nothing special about him.

I don't get why teams, media, and fans are so in love with him.

I should have mentioned as well, I really hope JP already knows exactly what he's going to do with Delgado. In other words if he believes that Delgado is gone this goes into his thinking as we approach the first trading deadline. I believe the first deals we see preceeding the deadline will see the biggest return to sellers.
The deals on deadline day would be the likes of Berg for uhhmm ....

How does Kevin Mench compare to Bobby Kielty?

Because if they're about the same, then we would just be going in a circle.

Benson isn't anything special. His just plays for team out of it and one who has indicated a willingness to trade him and is one of the better pitchers in a sellers market. Pittsburg are said to be interested in a significant upgrade at third and first. I think many GM's at least concur with you that he's nothing special and thats why he's still a Pirate after a month of speculation. Benson has not allowed more than two runs in his last seven starts so much to his teams delight he is perhaps enhancing his value.

How does Kevin Mench compare to Bobby Kielty?

Because if they're about the same, then we would just be going in a circle.

Thats a really valid question. Do you start with a Kielty comp. or throw Stewart and Lilly into it as well? I guess you do. Many projected Kielty to have a much better yr than he is presently enjoying. Billy Bean thought so. I think JP outfoxed the mentor on that one. I think out of all the posters here Gitz nailed that one but Lilly has pitched better than JG figured.

However, it depends on what a person would project for Mench not so much this season but next. I think if the guys injuries are behind him you could see 25-35 homeruns and a .275-.290 avg. Thats my projection, could be wrong but thats what I think. I also thought -at time of trade - Kielty is about what he has shown, therefore don't believe its chasing the tail at all.

Possible Trading Chips:

I say Miguel Batista stays, for reasons already discussed.

Ted Lilly must not be traded. Next year, maybe. But he's cheap and good for another year and two months. The Jays should keep Lilly for next year, unless it's a really great offer -- no Kevin Mench. Then in 2005 they can look for a power bat or something in exchange for the lefty.

The Arson Squad can't get much in return. Justin Speier to the A's has been discussed -- does the acquisition of Dotel lessen the chance of a Chris-Justin reunion in Oaktown?
If the BoSox want Terry Adams, it better not be a Wiggins deal. As much as we hate Adams, he's not terrible.
Kerry Ligtenburg stays for next year. He won't be this bad.

Frank Catalanotto could go somewhere. If the team is not happy with Josh Phelps anymore, he could go and Cat would stay, presumably, to play 1B/DH. One of them will be gone before April 2005, I'm sure.

Gregg Zaun -- if J.P. can outfox someone into paying anything for a .251 career hitting catcher who has middling power, good for him. Zaun may reinforce the notion that GM's have short memories, and his .292 avg this season is good for them. However, he won't be traded. Bobby Estalella cannot be activated until September (60 Day DL) which is after all trading periods end. If GQ can come up and play, then this situation changes. August 31st is the absolute deadline, and I doubt anyone would claim Zaun anyway.

That leaves some other guy named Carlos. If the reports are true and Los Angeles and Chicago want to talk to him, then what kind of deals could happen? (if Delgado waives his no-trade clause and accepts a long-term deal in either of these cities.)

So, long post short:
Batista, Lilly, Cat, Phelps, Ligtenburg should stay.
Adams to Boston?
Speier to Oakland?
Zaun is a question mark -- a Quiroz-shaped question mark.
Delgado...we'll see.

Why does Kris Benson have so much trade interest?

Probably because the Pittsburgh media hypes him up as one. He's nothing special, that's for sure.
His ERA+ figures:

1999 112
2000 119
2001  -- (injury?)
2002  92
2003  85

Meh.

Bobby Estalella cannot be activated until September (60 Day DL)

He's actually placed on the 60 day DL retroactive to the last day he played (June 6). Since he's been on the DL for 46 days already he is eligible to come off August 4th.

I could see the Jays trading Cash.

...he is eligible to come off August 4th.

...give or take a day

Right, Ryan. I saw June 7 and read July 7.

How does Kevin Mench compare to Bobby Kielty?

Using the Similarity Score, I calculated it at 907. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a score of 907 is not all that similar.

Another comparison:
Mench: 6-0, 225, born January 1978
Kielty: 6-1, 225, born August 1976

*shrugs* I don't know how else to compare them.

**

Cash? Interesting. That could be a possibility. Mike Matheny has based his career on being a no hit-good field catcher, why not Cash? Imagine:
TORONTO BLUE JAYS trade C KEVIN CASH to NATIONAL LEAGUE TEAM for cash.

Actually, I think 907 is pretty similar. I don't really know the "scale" though.

I just think it would like a little silly on JP if he traded Kielty for Lilly and Lilly for Mench.

Has Kevin Cash caught Kerry Ligtenberg at all this season?

And if so, why in the *&^%$ hasn't the Toronto media jumped all over the incredibly obvious "Cash and Kerry" headline possibilities?

Maybe there's a banner in there somewhere for the Cheer Club.

Why does Kris Benson have so much trade interest?

Maybe it's just this:

http://www.annabenson.net/main.html

The Rangers lost Ricardo Rodriguez for the rest of the season today. Regardless if you think Mench isn't an option I bet JP will be talking to John Hart in next day or so if they haven't already.

I'd say the price has gone up for a starter now. Texas turned down Benson for Nix and Dominiquez. I bet they won't now. Is Benson better than our two untouchables?

Probably because the Pittsburgh media hypes him up as one.

This is the first reference I've ever read, in my entire life, to the awesome power of the Pittsburgh media.

Why would the Jays trade Lilly at this point? He's a lefty, has years of experience under his belt, is effective, and signed for just $3 million next season.

At about this time, guys that are not signed through next year are traded for prospects to build with by teams that are going no where...

In my mind, next year is already finished too, so anyone not signed through AT LEAST 2006 is dealable at any moment for someone that will produce in 2006-2007...

I'm not even convinced that Batista will be any value to us under his current deal and will need to be extended or traded... i.e. my optimism for 2006 is fading fast...

Why the hype on Benson?

- drafted 1st overall in 1996
- great fastball and curveball

He hasn't quite put the pieces together, but he's got the potential to be a #1 starter. He's similar to Batista in some ways -- with his "stuff", he should be striking out far more guys than he does.

He could also be the second coming of Darren Dreifort...

In my mind, next year is already finished too... my optimism for 2006 is fading fast...

Daryn, by "finished" do you mean they won't be a competitive team? Because if so, I think you're nuts. If you're predicting they'll be under .500, I'll counter with "They'll be within 5 games of a playoff spot" on September 1, 2005.

i.e. my optimism for 2006 is fading fast...

Wow, that's some ridiculous pessimism.

Boys, at times it seems that I've typed my fingers raw (well, maybe just flat) reminding people that it's always been about the long term strategy with JP. Always. This year wasn't supposed to be a good one. It wasn't supposed to be this bad, injuries are largely to blame for the Jays' poor 2004 performance, but this team is set up very well for the future and we're on the cusp of a very nice run. In 2005, Toronto will finally have the payroll flexibility it hadn't had since before the Ash spendorama period of the late 90s. That's a long time to have to think creatively and trim in some very important areas in order to accomodate huge salaries at first base, and for a time, right field. The prospects are turning in productive performances and the pitching is coming together in time for an upward turn in the standings next year. That, combined with JP's talent at picking up complementary pieces for cheap and the whole organization's skill at drafting and developing young players is a recipe that I think will be a fantastic success.

A little patience is required though. You can't start eating the recipe when it's still in the mixing bowl, or something like that.

This is the first reference I've ever read, in my entire life, to the awesome power of the Pittsburgh media.

Hey, youneverknow.