Although I did not reply at the time, this really jumped out at me from the Game 89 thread:

I really hate Buck Showalter. Nice of him to bring in his closer Cordero to get the final out in a 9 run game. I guess Almanzar was clearly worn out by Phelps after that gruelling 5 pitch at-bat.

Last night, when Jason Frasor came in the game, Rangers TV color guy (and former GM and former player) Tom Grieve, said it quite nicely:

"I really like this kid, and he's turning into a closer for the Blue Jays. You might wonder why Carlos Tosca would bring in Frasor to get what may only be one out here in a game his team is trailing 4-0 now. Simple -- it's the same reason Buck brought Coco into an 11-2 game last night; you've got to get your closer some work in game situations. Coco went to the All-Star Game, but he didn't pitch in it, so it had been four days since he'd been in a game. For Frasor, now it's five. You have to keep these guys sharp and you can only do that by giving them work."

Jays Lineup, from Yahoo! Sports

F. Menechino dh
R. Johnson lf
V. Wells cf
C. Delgado 1b
G. Zaun c
A. Rios rf
E. Hinske 3b
C. Woodward ss
O. Hudson 2b

M. Batista vs K. Rogers.

Where's Phelps?
Menechino 1 for 2 vs Rogers, Phelps 0-0 with 3 walks (OBP 1.000). That's isn't the reason. It's a lefty pitcher, come on Tosca. They could sit Woody or Hudson if he wants Menechino to bat.

I don't get it.

If he really needed the work, why not let him start the inning? Stopping a blowout with one out to go to change pitchers is a little nasty in my book.

Once again we have catcher of the future Greg Zaun playing ahead of wiley old veteran Kevin Cash. We all know Zaun needs the AB's more than an old fart like Cash. Besides playing Zaun means more victories as the season has shown so far.

Heck even though Zaun only has 2 HR's this season, why not once again put him in a power spot. It makes too much sense.

Shall we start a FREE KEVIN CASH campaign?

Ever since the series against Seattle, Phelps is 2-for-19 with no walks.

Still, I'd like to see him at least against LHP Kenny Rogers.

And I for one, am glad to see "lead-off homer" Menechino back in the lineup.

wow! i actually get to listen to the jays game on the radio, huzzah!

Hopefully, they'll manage to pull one out of this series...

I'm not basing this off any statistical evidence, so I could be wrong but atleast to me it seems as if the Blue Jays rarely do anything in the first inning of games. Yet another 1-2-3 first inning, although Reed and Vern hit the ball pretty well.

As for Zaun/Cash, doesn't Zaun always catch Batista? I think Miguel prefers him.

woo-hoo! go hinske!

Nice 8 pitch AB by Woody!

I'm bored with DirecTV not covering the game, so I've got to use Gameday. So I got to thinking... what kind of player do you think Alexis Rios can become if he "maxes out" on his potential? This is of course assuming he "fills in" to his body. Personally, I'm thinking he can mature into a perfect #3 or #6 hitter (depending on Wells). He'll hit lots of line drives, and his patience at the plate is a lot better than I or anyone else thought it would be despite what his K/BB ratio might say. I've heard talk of him becoming a Juan Gonzalez type or someone like that, but I just don't think he has the power. Thoughts??

Jays get on the board as Hinske extends the streak and Woodward caps off an excellent at-bat with an RBI single. Still doesn't match up to Berg's (LOL) epic AB against Guardado in that comeback thriller against Seattle.

2-0 Jays!!

Ughhh... nothing worse than a rally-killing double play, especially when ahead in the count 2-0. There have definitely been too many GIDP's hit into by the Jays this season.

Oh well, still a very productive inning.

Anyone remember the last time the Jays had a lead?

I think Rios can become a .285 15Hr 80 Rbi number 5 or 6 hitter.

He doesn't draw enough walks to hit high in the order and he doesn't have the power to hit in the 3 or 4 spot.

I haven't seen this posted anywhere but if it was, sorry.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1842237

Looks like the Doc is going to see Dr. Andrews again. Hopefully they shut him down for the rest of the season.

Carlos BAVG now down to .212

Jays can probably afford him now...

Rios has way more potential than 15/80. He's 6'5, and people forget he should still be in the minors. I see a right-handed Shawn Green five years down the road.

And as someone mentioned earlier, Zaun is catching because Batista does not work well with Cash. That has been Cash's biggest problem so far this year (working with pitchers).

I think Rios can become a .285 15Hr 80 Rbi number 5 or 6 hitter.

Rios is pretty close to reaching that potential projection already. Who knows how he might develop?

Hey, I don't know how to use the italics. Sue me!

Pat Hentgen sitting in the dugout, ready for his next start...

I think Rios projects to hit 315/360/480. Right now, it looks like he should develop into a Vernon Wells clone, but with less power.

Actually, Magpie, that's exactly what I think. A one or two-year contract extension would work very well for Carlos and the team. At this point, the Jays can afford his market value, and they are more likely to appreciate his value because:

a. of his bond with Toronto (he's the greatest player ever produced by the organization, and a fixture in Toronto), and
b. he's only 32, and a statistically-inclined organization will appreciate that his performance from age 26-31 is somewhat more predictive of his immediate future than his performance at age 32.

Alex is definatly showing the kind of skill that made him the MVP of Eastern League last year! Great to see with this season being such a downer.. Lets get Gabe up here now and see how he responds to Major League pitching.

why do i get that gnawing feeling that the failure to really have the 'big inning' against an off rogers is gonna come back to hurt us?

I like Ron's suggestion, perhaps the Cheer Club's next initiative:

FREE CASH!!!

Now what can we do about Phelps?

Sorry, make that Rob's suggestion.

NO!!!

Please, I have tickets for the BLEACHERS at Yankee Stadium on Wednesday and I'd hate to have to sit through the horror of another Hentgen start.

Hey, look at the the brightside Dave. You'll get plenty of chances to get a baseball!

2 of Batista's K's have been balls on the strike-out pitch. The Ranger hitters are screwed because the umps are on Batista's side.
But at the same time Batista is rolling!!

Woo 3rd hit by Rios!!!

Nice game so far for Rios. Does the Sportsnet drinking game include "Young Juan Gonzalez" yet?

I say what I am about to say with an unblemished record of staunch heterosexuality:

I am falling in love with Alex Rios.

Damm that was risky. Pop up not to deep left field and Rios tags and goes to 3rd.

I say what I am about to say with an unblemished record of staunch heterosexuality:

I am falling in love with Alex Rios.

It would have sounded better, for your sake, if you used his full name... Alexis.

:)

I'm bored with DirecTV not covering the game, so I've got to use Gameday. So I got to thinking... what kind of player do you think Alexis Rios can become if he "maxes out" on his potential?

The sky's the limit right now. I'd say it's too early to tell, as his power hasn't developed. He's improving by leaps and bounds, which is the single best thing that has happened to the Jays this year.

He just advanced to third on a fly to left. Yow.

Looks like the Doc is going to see Dr. Andrews again.

Anybody know how much insurance the Jays have on his contract? Just in case. A bad shoulder is a horrible thing.

And I agree that a one-year deal for Delgado might benefit both parties. Mind you, there are teams out there with more money than sense: Baltimore and Tampa Bay come to mind. One of those teams might offer Delgado four years at $30 million just because they can. (If the Orioles can offer big bucks to Marty Cordova, they sure can offer them to Carlos.)

This is off-topic, I know, but could someone explain the cuttlefish joke to me? I mean, yes, prize for guessing the song, I get that, but why cuttlefish specifically? How'd it start?

Hey, look at the the brightside Dave. You'll get plenty of chances to get a baseball!

I could see it now... Jeter hits one of his patented opposite field homers into the bleachers off IT'S PAT!! and I make the catch, only to throw the ball back onto the field and get assaulted by the kind and gentile Yankee fans!!

Sounds great!!

BTW, yet another stranded on 3rd with less than 2 outs. At least the Jays have a nice enough lead so that it "doesn't really matter" YET!

Anybody know how much insurance the Jays have on his contract? Just in case. A bad shoulder is a horrible thing.

I remember reading from various sources during the off-season that a contract of more than 3 years doesn't contain as much insurance. Hopefully, I'm wrong.

Holy Cow!!

A Doug Brocail sighting!!!

1) FREE CASH!!! --> perfect slogan

2) Delgado should be traded for any 2005-ready prospects we can get, then we pick up Olerud or McGriff to platoon with Phelps for the rest of the year.

3) Is Dan Shulman calling the game on ESPN (TV)? Cause it's the Jays, it's Sunday Night Baseball, and there's no Shulman on radio!

I think Rios can throw away his map of Syracuse; he won't be needing it again.

Very impressive for Rios. He's as advertised so far. At least one positive thing comes out of this season.

Man, O-Dog is ice cold.

Rios is red-hot though. 8 for his last 12, hehe. His batting average is a little empty considering he doesn't walk or hit homeruns, but that will come.

This is off-topic, I know, but could someone explain the cuttlefish joke to me?

Cuttlefish, like many things around here, can be explained this way: Moffatt's weird. :-)

Arghhhh!!!!

The wheels are falling off.

Uh oh...

The Rangers now have the tying run at 2nd with no one out in the 8th...

Did Tosca wait one batter too many to pull Batista?
And this game was going so well, too.

The more and more I watch Carlos, the less and less I like...

God if the Jays somehow find a way to blow this game, I think it'll put the 17th exclamation point at the end of the now coined phrase "Season from Hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

I have to go change my pants...

What's the moral of this story known as the Blue Jays 2004 season from hell?

Don't strand runners on 3rd with less than 2 outs!!

Dear God, haven't we suffered enough?

Batista was pitching brilliantly, it looked like we could just cruise to victory for once...

We're still up by two though, come on Vinny...

We shout "gun 'im down, Alex!" at the TV, only to have Nix chicken out and run back to third.

Rios is now batting .297 with a .747 OPS. When this kid's body fills out and that doubles power turns into home runs, look out.

Watching Alexis for the next six years (hopefully more) will be a joy.

Is it just me, or do they have a drum in Texas?

Son of a...

A Doug Brocail sighting!!!

No kidding. Check out his B-Ref page.

Nine years, 50 innings in 2000, then NOTHING until April 28, 2004.

Oh, and damnit!!!

That my folks sums up the season!!!!!!

I know, I know, it's sad & predictable--but I still can't believe it. I just want to end the season right now.

Sigh... Texiera homers with the bases loaded. That's the ball game I think. Damn, this is getting pretty painful.

what did i say above missed opportunities.

i think chulk's couple months of being good are over. He's back to being the sucky AAAA we expected him to be.

I agree on Rios -- if he keeps this up, Mrs. Hank and I will have to name our first kid Alex.

Well, time to get it all back in the ninth.

It must be nice to have a team that can hit homeruns.

anjnglkamg blah.

What is there to say?

Damn, watching Rios makes me sad to know that we'll never get a prospect like this again with Ricciardi's drafting philosophy. Bring on the John-Ford Griffin's and Russ Adams', yippee! :(

Speaking of yippee, I knew the minute Fullmer got walked that Teix would hit one out. Speaking of stars, Teix is almost there.

that's sucky AAAA pitcher, although i'm sure you all knew what i meant.

Pitching around Fullmer to get to Teixeira??

If that's the case, and it wasn't just Vinny losing control, that could be one of the worst decisions I've seen in a while.

The odds of Fullmer homering again are minimal. Plus, Teixeira is:

a) Loads of a better hitter than Fullmer
b) Has more power than Fullmer
c) Just simply a better hitter than Fullmer is

Typical, absolutly typical...

Hey, I noticed that BA has an exclusive article on top 2B prospects. Has anyone read this? If so, how does Adams rate?

It would have sounded better, for your sake, if you used his full name... Alexis.

Alex Rios has asked (back in the spring) that he be referred to as "Alex" and not "Alexis".

"Teixeira homered to right, Nix, Young and Fullmer scored."
I don't believe that. That did not just happen.

TOR   020 110 10
TEX   000 000 16

I mean, honestly.

I don't think that Chulk pitched around Fullmer deliberately until 3-0. The first two pitches were changeups up, and I do think Chulk was trying to coax a swing from Fullmer.

I noticed that BA has an exclusive article on top 2B prospects. Has anyone read this? If so, how does Adams rate?

I don't know why they'd rate him as he's a shortstop.

Even if you're a happy go lucky glass is half full kinda guy, this game still has to bring you down.

Batista cruises through 7 innings giving up one run and 2 hits and then the Rangers put up a 6 spot.

I'm tempted to punch the wall but I don't have to fix it so I won't.

I left out the word money in the last sentence.

I don't think they were pitching around Fullmer. I could be wrong though, but it would be silly.

I just want to know what the Jays did to piss of the Baseball Gods so badly. I could see that Grand Slam coming a mile away too, and I don't know if that makes it better or worse.

Any reasons why Chulk didn't go after Fullmer?

Was he/Tosca/the Jays really THAT intimidated by Brad Fullmer?

I'd rather let Fullmer beat me then Teixeira.

Well if Delgado could make a simple play on a routine groundball against a potent offence then the Jays would have escaped the inning. Maybe Chulk doesn't even have to come into the game. I mean he had to come in and face the tying run on second with nobody out and almost got out of it. For whatever reason though after retiring two hitters he seemed completely out of gas and couldn't find the zone at all against Fullmer. Personally, I wouldn't have thrown it anywhere near the strikezone against Teixeira; even if you walk him you have a 1 run lead.

Orlando Hudson doesn't seem to be having much fun right now. It looks like he's flying open early trying to turn on the ball and he's just not making the contact he's capable of making.

Pitching around Fullmer to get to Teixeira??

Is *that* was he was doing? Jeez, I hope not. It that's the case, I agree, that's a *terrible* decision.

Regardless, if this keeps up, I don't think Tosca will last another month. I know a lot of what's happened to the team isn't his fault, but I'm not sure that matters much anymore.

The worst part about the Grand Slam is that we can't blame the Arson Squad. Hehe ;)

How bad was the "pitching around" for Fullmer? I'd hate to think that walking him to get to Teixeira was at all intentional. Doesn't count as hindsight when the call is this obvious, either.

Hey SK, you can't fault JP yet--he's only just completed his 3rd draft. Rios took quite a bit of time to develop. Give Adams (and Hill, Banks, Purcey, Thigpen, Lind, et al.) another couple of years. Also, Griffin wasn't a draft pick; he came as part of a package for heavy-hitting Felipe Lopez.

I'm sure there are plenty of teams that would like to have Adams in their system.

Just typical. The Jays give up a half hour long inning, give up a huge lead, and then go down 1-2-3 in the ninth in about two minutes flat. I've seen this script too many times before.

Your 2004 Toronto Blue Jays have OFFICIALLY hit rock bottom.

Did anyone else get reminded of Matt Lecroy's grand slam just now?

How bad was the "pitching around" for Fullmer?

Hard to say. I don't think any of the pitches were that close (he walked on four pitches), but maybe Chulk just lost the strike zone. I guess it's possible that, after falling behind, he decided to walk Fullmer and take his chances with Teixiera.

I don't know why the Jays have the lowest road attendance. If you were a fan of another team, and you saw the Jays were coming to town, wouldn't you think, "Cool, automatic win!" Our guys just like being polite, is all. They don't want all those paying fans to go home unhappy!

[/sarcasm]

So Sankiw reads the Box...say hi Warren

If this play keeps up JP won't be around in a couple of years to see how Purcey, Banks, etc.. pan out

This is really sad!

Good thing we've all got other things to focus on so we don't get too depressed! Right? Right? Right?

ScottS: Thanks. Also CraigB, whose post I didn't see until after I'd made mine.

Interesting point, though. Is Fullmer at 3-0 more dangerous than Teixeira at 0-0?

Anyway, figured it was about time I delurked to share the pain. Worst season in club history.

Funny how this series just got worse and worse.

The first game was a blowout. The second game was not a blowout, but was more frustrating to watch due to all the stranded runners. The third game ... well, this one just takes the cake, doesn't it? Gotta love when you outhit the team 14-5 and lose.

Now it's off to face the A's, and then the Yankees...sigh.

Oh well, time to beat the hell out of the Rangers in MVP 2004. ;)

This team officially sucks. Every loss is a complete team effort. They're just pitiful. Major changes are needed and I'm sure it will start with a fresh face in managerial position and the coaching staff.

It's going to be interesting to see where J.P. starts fixing this mess. There doesn't seem to be many pieces in place right now to field a contender anytime soon.

They deserve to finish in last place.

Anybody still think we will finish 3rd in the division?

Don't forget we still got 19 vs. the Yanks and more vs. the Red Sox.

Ryan, usually I play that night's game on MVP 2004 BEFORE the Jays game starts.

Funny how "my" Jays swept the Rangers...

Why couldn't this season be "less like real life" and more like a video game?

Oh well. Maybe the team can rise to the occasion of playing some top caliber competition.

Let's hope and let's keep our heads up!

;)

This team officially sucks. Every loss is a complete team effort. They're just pitiful.

In the team's defense, tonight was not just a "meaningless effort." The game was there, but they just caught a bad break as has been the case this entire season.

I would be more than willing to guarentee that if the core players on this team were healthy for the majority of the season, they would be MUCH better than they are right now.

Give the returning players (Wells/Delgado/Cat) some time to gel and they should finish the season somewhere near respectable.

Anyway, figured it was about time I delurked to share the pain. Worst season in club history.

Good grief. Does no one remember 1995? And let's not even talk about the teams of the seventies...

Look at the schedule:

19 vs. Yanks
6 vs. Red Sox
5 vs. A's
3 vs. Angels
3 vs. Rangers

Things don't look good. I'm on record right now saying the Jays won't even win 75 games this season

Nah, the Jays need just two things to happen to be alright. Delgado has to play like the real Delgado, i.e. something closer to what Teixeira is playing like right now. Halladay has to be healthy.

When those guys play like the stars they are they elevate the team. Right now we're essentially seeing a team without their two best players. Yes I know Delgado is back and Halladay for some reason was pitching despite his shoulder hurting on and off. But they are nowhere near what they should be and I'm beginning to wonder whether Delgado has experienced a sudden dropoff in skill or whether he's mailing it in right now.

BTW, those pointing at Teixeira as being a good prospect might want to take into account that he was drafted 5th overall and they had to pay out a multiyear major league contract just to get him to sign. Prospects like him just don't come along very often and you have to be very high in the draft to get them. That means you had to be a terrible team the previous year as the Rangers were for many years. So yes they better have a lot of good young players. Plus he was drafted out of college so those complaining about the Jays' drafting philosophy can't hang their hat on that pick.

only to throw the ball back onto the field and get assaulted by the kind and gentile Yankee fans

I know, I know -- it was a typo or a slip of the keyboard, but I can't resist ... what you think only the non-Jewish Yankee fans will beat you up? Never been to a kosher deli in the Bronx?

But seriously, Tip #1 if you're going to be sitting in the Bleachers at Babe's place ... do not wear anything with a Blue Jay on it. Do not overtly or even audibly root for the Blue Jays or cheer anything they do or, worse, denigrate or boo anything the Yankees do. If you gauge the fans around you as being old school and not violent, you can admit you're a Jays fan but only if you preface it with remarks about how the Yankees are the class of the division, that it's an honor and a privilege to be in the shrine of all baseball shrines, and boy, your team and theirs have shared some interesting players in the past ... Barfield, Fernandez, Key ...

It wouldn't hurt if you mentioned how much you hate the Red Sox and that Roger Clemens only really cemented his greatness in Toronto and New York after leaving Fenway.

Ryan: I'm taking expectations into account and I stand by my statement.

Mike in CT is right. The team is just pathetic this year. Heads needs to roll. It might not be fair, but who said baseball is fair?

yes, injuries have taken their toll, but i think we expect too much out of mid-level trash like o-dog/cat/menechino/woodward. Build around wells/hinske/rios. Hope halliday's shoulder isn't ruined, some of the younger pitchers come thru and make everyone else expenable.

It's hard to imagine the team finishing anywhere near respectability. They haven't shown that they are a competitive team this year. I don't see why that would change now. If I sound angry, I am. I am sick of this losing. It's been 11 years now.

and just to add to the bitter pill, Vinnie's last 4 apps:

4.2ip, 6h, 2hr, 3bb, 1loss, 1bs, 10.71era.

the downside of the scrap-heap... it tends to depart as quickly as it came (see also Lopez, Aquillino). I hope Jason Frasor's not next.

Mick, this won't be the first nor will it be the last time I openly root for the Jays in the bleachers in a game against the Yanks, WITH my Vernon Wells jersey may I add.

Last season, me and a few buds were "kindly escorted" from the left field bleachers (which are far less roudy than the right field bleachers) after the guarding police offer realized that things were getting "a bit out of hand" in the top of the 9th with the Jays up.

Of course we were met with a good ole "na na na na, hey, goodbye"

Sweet crap! I was upset that I had to step out, but at least they had a late lead that they couldn't have possibly blown...The Baseball Gods HATE the new uniforms.

Hey, remember our two best relievers last year, (Kershner, Lopez), where are they now? (Although, to be fair, we got those two guys for nothing)

I am sick of this losing. It's been 11 years now.

Mike, that seems a bit melodramatic. Over the last 10 years, the Jays are 760-795, and if you throw out that ill-fated '95 season, are statistically a .500 club over the past decade (704-707). By the standards of most clubs, that's a pretty decent run.

True, I was surprised when I looked and realized that in the A.L., other than Tampa Bay, only KC has gone longer without a playoff appearance, but unless I'm missing someone, in the last 25+ years, only the Yankees, Twins and Marlins join the Blue Jays with more than one World Series title.

I guess all that said, you're technically correct ... but c'mon, you could be a Cubs or Red Sox fan, right?

If Vinnie Chulk's downfall represents things returning to what we expected, then will Ligtenberg, Adams and Speier stop sucking?

Damn, watching Rios makes me sad to know that we'll never get a prospect like this again with Ricciardi's drafting philosophy. Bring on the John-Ford Griffin's and Russ Adams', yippee! :(

Man, you know things are going poorly when people are wishing for the return of the Gord Ash philosophy.

I don't think Chulk counts as being from the scrap heap.

Geez. Looking at the whole picture of sports in this town, with the elderly Leafs and the Raptors' best player wanting to leave so badly, I can't imangine this city celebrating a championship for at least five years. But even then, the Jays still have the best chance to do it. Prove me wrong Toronto! Please prove me wrong!

Rios' season-to-date doesn't do justice to how much better he's played lately.

Through June: .257/.306./.336
July (12 games, not including tonight): .333/.360/.500

Those will improve after tonight's showing. Some homeruns would be nice, but he's getting XB hits.

No, the Argos have the best chance. The Argos always have the best chance.

Oh right, the CFL. The CFL's so unpredictable that even Ottawa (4-0?)could win the Grey Cup (After only 3 years). Whoa.

Do the Argos count? If they do, then surely your Toronto Rock are the city's best title threat.

If the Jays drafted a Rios clone in 2004 he'd be ready in 2009 after everyone bitched after the 2004, 2005 and 2006 seasons about what a lousy pick that was. People forget this is Rios' 6th professional season and he's still not a finished product though the unfinished product doesn't look so bad.

How do we know that Warren Sawkiw reads the Box?

Good post MatO. The whole point of JP's philosophy is to draft guys that can reach the majors and produce quicker than all those high risk/high reward guys like Alexis Rios.

Wow, if anyone wants to sit back and laugh just go on over to the forum at BlueJays.com

It's a place like that which makes me realize how great the Box is.

9/10 posters there (Ted Lilly's father excluded) are glass half empty pessimists who think JP Ricciardi is the great satan and that Gord Ash is God.

Sad

This is rock bottom!!!

Can it get any worse than this? asks Mike Wilner of the Fan590.

Well, yes! I think we can expect it be this bad/and worse for the rest of the year. This team has only 1 starting pitcher worth his salt - Batista. And now with Hengten rejoining the rotation....

Changes are needed now here are some possible ones:

1.Release Delgado, Berg, T. Adams, etc. We can't get anything for them anyway.
2.Return Chulk, O'Dog to the minors. Poor performances over the last few weeks.
3.Send Tosca home. It's time!!!
4.Trade Zaun. See what we can get.
5.Bring up Gross, Quiroz, R. Adams, League, Griffin, Frederick, G. Williams, etc., whatever we need to fill out the roster and see what we have in the minors.

In other words, do what the Mariners are doing and get younger and see what the kids can do. It can't be worse than what we saw tonight and most of this year. I feel sorry for JP having to deal with this mess, improve the team, bring in fans to watch this team, and balance the budget. I would rather win 70-75 games with the young players than with these overpaid / under-motivated seniors. I don't get upset when a kid misplays a ball like I do when Delgado does it.

Jim, I think you have forgotten that not too long ago, Ted Lilly was invited to the All-Star Game.

Return Chulk, O'Dog to the minors. Poor performances over the last few weeks.

Return O Dog to the minors because he's in a slump?

I just stopped taking you seriously.

Lilly is only a 500 pitcher in a good year.

Mike, that seems a bit melodramatic. Over the last 10 years, the Jays are 760-795, and if you throw out that ill-fated '95 season, are statistically a .500 club over the past decade (704-707). By the standards of most clubs, that's a pretty decent run.

No, Mick, I'm not being melodramatic at all. Success is measured in postseason appearances and championships, not meaningless overall win stats that don't take into account many meaningless wins in September. The Jays have not even been serious contenders for a postseason spot since 1993. That is unacceptable.

Yes, Cubs and Red Sox fans have had it rough with their teams but at least they have been in the postseason and have legimate chances to make it each season. Those fans have hope each season that it may finally be their year. Jays fans, right now, have no hope in the near future for a contending team and it shouldn't be that way.

O-Dog to the minors.....

Are u serious or joking?

Funny how one game can drive people to the brink of insanity...

You know that if the Jays were to have won tonight, people would be saying that it's the start of the climb back to respectability as far as this season goes.

Instead it's the end of the world...

11 games under, 13 games under... same difference

I think too many are unfairly dumping on Chulk for this loss. He hadn't even begun stretching after the first walk and Candiotti commented that it seemed a little slow getting organized in the bullpen. I don't think Chalk had sufficient warm-up and remember he is relatively inexperienced. He did well in retiring the first 2 under pressure and then just didn't make the pitches. No-one can blame Batista, he simply ran out of gas. However, I think it is entirely correct to blame Tosca for not having some one warming up sooner. Usually, when you are in the 8th inning, you always have someone warming up just to prevent the type of disater we witnessed tonight. If Chalk come in sooner and fully warmed up with less pressure(the tying run not already at second) he may well have gotten out of it. I think I can say without hindsight that Bartista should have been pulled after the initial walk as none of the 4 pitches were even close. If not then, surely after the following hit. Remember now Chulk is still stretching and may not yet have thrown a warm up toss. I guess you can see where this is all leading. I am not one to bash managers as a rule and have said nothing yet this year on the status of Tosca but I can say right now that I believe this screw up was 100% of his making and that I believe should be fired tomorrow morning.

If the players see it the same way, they will quit on him(if they Haven't already) and things will become even worse.

As for Delgado, I think they must seek to get rid of him in any way possible and as soon as possible. He is floating, does not care and his continued presence will have the same adverse affect as continuing to employ Tosca.

To finish, I am not normally so negative. Love a lot of things JP is doing, particularly in the minor league system. The Jays have been brutally unlucky this year. One can only look forward and I think this is better accomplished without Tosca or Delgado.

Anybody worried Team Canada might lose Jeff Francis? I believe he fanned 12 in 7 innings and gave up 1 er in his AAA debut tonight. Good ol BC boy who went to UBC.

If he does well in his next 3 starts I could see the Rockies calling him considering they need pitching and they've hit rock bottom.

Batista was only at about 85 pitches to start the inning and had been in ZERO pressure situations all game. There was no way Tosca could have seen him hitting the wall the way he did.

If this season is a washout (And almost undeniably it is), then I suppose it wouldn't hurt too much to call up the guys that are ready for the big action (Gross, Adams?). But lets not go nuts and talk about releasing Delgado mid-season here. Even Delgado at his very worst drove in a run tonight, and he's still the only truly TRULY terrifying hitter we've got.

Although I think you're wrong about Lilly being "only" a .500 pitcher, that ain't so bad either...the reds would kill for a
Lilly-esque pitcher

...I was responding to jim854's comment...

One last response before retiring for the night. It was suggested that Tosca could not have foreseen Batista hitting the wall so suddenly. I agree. That is not his job. It is his responsibility, however, to be prepared for every possible eventuality and a starting pitcher tiring in the 8th inning is not only a possible eventuality, but a good possibility, maybe even a probability. This is not the first time Tosca has not been prepared. Time to pay the piper.

Amen, that's all, close the book. They'll start again tomorrow.

I don't think it's fair to criticize Tosca for not pulling Batista. The guy pitched outstanding all night and really only made one mistake the whole night. Add to that that Batista was working with a VERY NICE pitch count (somewhere around 90 pitches) and the fact that he's gone deep into games this season and he ISN'T named Josh Towers and you've got all the reasons why he stuck with Batista.

Good call IMO, you have to have some faith in certain players. Chalk this one up to yet more bad luck.

I was all set to give Tosca a standing ovation when I saw that Chulk was warming up. I was sure he was going to bring in Ligtenberg or Adams.

Should he have had Chulk warming up earlier? I don't think so. Batista was at about 85 pitches, and he doesn't have a history of suddenly imploding the way Hentgen does. So to say it was a "probability..." I disagree with that. Batista looked like he had a complete game in the books.

I really don't think Tosca did anything wrong tonight, although I don't really understand benching Phelps against a lefty.

Have things gotten so bad that there's actually people saying that the Jays should be following the Mariners' lead? One thing that's getting me through these days is the fact that the Mariners are enduring a worse season, at greater expense.

What can the Jays do?

Trades? Who's got any value? The Cat might, if he didn't have to play the rest of the season injured, running at 60%. Zaun really won't be worth anything except a bag of baseballs. Lilly and Batista are too valuable. Carlos has destroyed any rental value he might've had at one point. No-one's going to pay for anything in the Jays' bullpen, so there's really no players that are worth trading.

Call-ups? Who's avaliable? There's really no point, at least not now.

Play other players? Phelps might deserve more time, but I doubt that Cash will do much, so why not play Zahn if the pitchers like him more?

As sad as it is, there's not much the Jays can do except hope that Halladay's going to be healthy next year, and give Rios all the playing time that he can handle. Anything else is a pipedream, unless Delgado starts mashing enough to be worth something.

Just like to point out that Delgado is playing for what is probably the last big contract he will get in his LIFE. If anything, he's more likely to be pressing too much.

Also: the Mariners are a completely different situation. The Jays problems begin with what was documented here (can't remember by whom, but it was a very nice piece of work) a couple of weeks ago as the worst run of injuries encountered by ANY major league team since 1983.

Seattle did themselves in. They dumped two good players who were actually in their prime (Carlos Guillen and Mike Cameron), and were shocked when their old players suddenly got... old. But an awful lot of us saw it coming.

I saw a lot of Mariner games last season and to defend the M's brass, nobody saw Guillen was going to bust out and become a all-star calibre player this season.

With his seasons with the M's, there was no indication he had this type of offensive ability.

Ramon Santiago???

There's no defending that.

Someone mentioned earlier that Doug Brocail hadn't pitched since 2000; the same is true of Manny Alexander, yesterday's second baseman, who hadn't played in the majors since 2000. Where do the Rangers find these guys?

With all the talk about Batista, I wouldn't be surprised if a team like Texas took an interest in Terry Adams; they're starting to believe that they can win, and they can only take so many chances on Brocail and Way Back Wasdin. The Giants might also want Ligtenberg, especially after yesterday's spectacular Matt Herges Meltdown. I don't think these veteran relievers are as untradeable as some people think they are.

Mark Teixeira now has more home runs in July (9) than the the Blue Jays (8). This is still, I think, the most stunning development of this wretched season: where has all the power gone?

Sitting here at 3:28 AM makes me realize that while there are problems, panic as widespread as this should not be setting in. Yes they are struggling. Yes they won't win as many games as last year. Yes they have a tough schedule the rest of the way. That's not to say the season is lost. I would say that Rios, Bush, and Frasor all have a chance to continue establishing themselves as regulars while having the chance to perform without the pressure of a wild card chase.

Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the Jays do to the Yanks what TB did to us last year. If ever there was a time they're beatable, it's now. Vazquez and Lieber have been inconsistent, Brown and Mussina are injured, and who knows what to expect from Contreras, El Duque, Halsey, etc. Suffice to say they are beatable if we get to their starters. They just came off a 4 game trip to Detroit where they scored a combined 12 runs. While I doubt that they will repeat that performance on the weekend, stranger things have happened - like sweeping them in Yankee Stadium last year.

"Did Tosca wait one batter too many to pull Batista?"

He waited three batters too long, actually.

Now I have to admit that I would have blown this one, too. Which is one of the many, many excellent reasons that no one lets me run a major league team.

I too did not suspect any danger at all when the inning began. But that was precisely MY mistake, and Tosca's as well. Because it's Texas, it's 4 million degrees, it's the eighth inning. You HAVE to be ready for your starter to hit the wall, at any moment.

After the leadoff walk, of course, I moaned "Oh no, he's done." They always SAY leadoff walks are more likely to score, and I don't think there's any evidence of that. But it is certainly true that the LAST thing a pitcher wants to do when he has a late inning lead is walk the leadoff guy.

When it happens, it means your pitcher can no longer throw a strike with any authority. It means TROUBLE. So at the very least, the bullpen should have sprung into action here. Even I, asleep at the switch, forgetting it was Texas and the 8th inning, and Fahrenheit nine-million, wanted the bullpen getting ready at this point.

Tosca said after the game that he was thinking Batista might be able to finish the game.

Why?

It's true he hadn't thrown that many pitches... but it was Texas!

Oh well. Let us get all the bad and horrible karma out of the system this season.

David Armitage while I respect your thoughts, there is every reason to be frustrated and panicking at the Jays this season.

You know what the Jays could walk in to Yankee stadium this week and sweep the Yanks and in the grand scheme of things it means didly squat because of the overall record.

Most of us had the notion this team had an outside chance of winning the wild card and at least put up a fight to compete for it and the Jays haven't done either.

To rub salt in the wounds of the fans is how they are losing. Case in point tonight. The team is crusing through 7 innings and then bam the roof caves in.

To make matters worse I see our best player mailing it in. His AB's since coming of the DL have been pathetic to say it kindly. Swinging at junk and showing no patience what so ever.

Obo :

Is Fullmer at 3-0 more dangerous than Teixeira at 0-0?

Much more. Much much more. When a single loses the lead, with first base open I would walk almost any major league hitter with the count 3-0.

Ron :

while I respect your thoughts, there is every reason to be frustrated and panicking at the Jays this season

There is never a good time to panic. Frustration, sure. Panic is stupid - at any time. There is never a time in the history of human events when a calm, measured, reasoned reaction to disaster isn't better than panic.

What's happened this year is frustrating, but no one in the organization should use that frustration as grounds for doing anything they wouldn't otherwise do.

Most of us had the notion this team had an outside chance of winning the wild card and at least put up a fight to compete for it and the Jays haven't done either

Yes, but that was scotched pretty early on, and having an "outside chance" means that almost all of the time, you're not going to do it. This team had a slightly better chance of being this bad than they did of winning the wild card. But nearly everything has gone wrong; from the injuries to some unexpectedly poor performances by key players.

Mike in CT:

If I sound angry, I am. I am sick of this losing. It's been 11 years now.

Well boo-freaking-hoo, you crybaby. That's pathetic. 11 years? That's nothing. Geez, look across the Ottawa River, to fans whose team has never won in 36 years, soon to be 37, and who are facing to lose their team. Look at Texas, or Houston, or Seattle... teams whose towns, incidentally, are supporting their teams (unlike Toronto).

Ryan Lind :

Batista was only at about 85 pitches to start the inning and had been in ZERO pressure situations all game. There was no way Tosca could have seen him hitting the wall the way he did.

Right on - I agree 100%. Except that it might have been a good idea to have Adams or Chulk warming. The pen is relatively fresh, and having someone get warm - even just tossing - isn't a bad idea, since with 85 pitches in the bag through 7 it's unlikely that Batista would be able to go all 9. I was surprised to see, when Batista couldn't find the strike zone (he had no control over his slider at all, none) that the pen was quiet.

That's nothing. Geez, look across the Ottawa River, to fans whose team has never won in 36 years, soon to be 37, and who are facing to lose their team.

Craig, the fact that other teams have sucked is no reason to be happy about your team sucking.

And Texas, Houston and Seattle have all been in the playoffs recently. The Blue Jays haven't contended since 1993, which is a reason that they're support is less than those three teams.

Did anyone else watching the Sportsnet telecast last night find it odd the way Candiotti kept referring to the potential second, third and fourth Texas runs when they were on base as meaningless? I understand the point of his remarks, but only in the context of the ninth inning. Assuming the Rangers don't tie it up or take the lead in the eighth, any additional runs scored are runs that don't have to be scored in the ninth. Maybe I misunderstood him, but I kept asking: "does he think this is the ninth inning?"

A tough loss, but those things happen in baseball and in life (which is not what I was saying late last night - a good reason not to post until the next morning!) Two things that disappointed me last night: Delgado botching a routine grounder that resulted in four unearned runs, and Wells taking ridiculous swipes in the ninth with nobody on, Delgado on deck and facing a two-run deficit. I know Delgado isn't paid to be a gold glover out there, but he needs to make the routine plays, particularly late in the game. And Vernon looked like someone in a hurry to get the game over with, swinging for the fences when he should have been just trying to get on base and bring Delgado to the plate as the tying run. You can't ever control results, but you can control approach and concentration. I didn't see that from the team's best players late in the game last night, and that is bothersome.

The Blue Jays haven't contended since 1993

The Jays contended in 1998, finishing second in the AL Wild Card race, four games behind the Red Sox.

Geez, there goes Leigh bringing real facts into our arguments again...

The Jays contended in 1998, finishing second in the AL Wild Card race, four games behind the Red Sox.

The Blue Jays also went 17-8 in September of that year, making the final standings much closer than they were the rest of the year. I think saying they contended in 1998 is being pretty generous.

Well boo-freaking-hoo, you crybaby. That's pathetic. 11 years? That's nothing. Geez, look across the Ottawa River, to fans whose team has never won in 36 years, soon to be 37, and who are facing to lose their team. Look at Texas, or Houston, or Seattle... teams whose towns, incidentally, are supporting their teams (unlike Toronto).

You're missing the point. It has nothing to do with the last time the Jays have won a championship. The point is that they have not been in contention for 11 years! Yes, other franchises have it worse, but I do not care about other franchises, I care about the Jays and they are in a sad state right now. Any real fan would be upset about their team losing, instead of accepting their situation and being happy with championships won 11 and 12 years ago. Craig B is obviously not a true fan.

I think saying they contended in 1998 is being pretty generous.

I am a generous guy then, Paul. Four games is contention.

Craig B is obviously not a true fan.

Like a friend who was once responding to my withdrawal-induced assertion that buying another pack could actually help me quit smoking said: "That is the exact opposite of true".

Well I don't think we need to get into who's a real fan and who's not. Is the real fan the one that's still a fan after 11 years of struggles, or the fan that can't take it? I don't know and I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, if you say you're a Jays fan than you are.

I am a generous guy then, Paul. Four games is contention.

Better to be generous than stingy I guess. As mentioned, the Jays were 17-8 in September while the Red Sox went 12-15. At the end of August the Red sox were 80-55 while the Blue Jays were 71-66 and basically out of it.

Craig B is obviously not a true fan.

Umm.. OK. I can't win this argument; the fact that I think whining about how long it's been since the Jays were in contention is utterly pathetic (I don't support a team because they win; I support a team because they're a part of me). If I'm not a "true fan" because I don't hop up and down screaming on the freaking Internet when I don't get my way, then I'm happy with not being a "true fan".

Gentlemen, the legendary phrase "sports don't build character, they reveal it" is as true of the observers as it is of the participants.

Just keep living in 1992 and 1993 and be happy with that, Craig B. I'll send you the DVD so can relive it over and over again.

Truth is this team hasn't be run well since the Pat Gillick and Labatt days. Many situations and reasons have caused that, but they haven't been the model franchise they used to be and that bothers me. The Jays ARE part of me and that's why I get upset. I root for the Raptors too, but when they lose, I don't really care because I don't live and breath Raptors basketball like I do Blue Jays baseball.

Out of curiosity, what then counts as contention? Four games is not close enough, and pushes late in the season don't count. So you have to be within three and it has to be early in the season...any more rules?

I remember being within two of first place early last season.

Mike in CT, are you saying that the only way to contend, then, is the Yankee model of spend-spend-spend? The Jays spent-spent-spent until it stopped working for them and there wasn't money left to spend.

Am I happy about this season? Not really, it mostly stinks. Rios has been a real high point, and Hinske getting back on track has been great to watch. Was I hoping for a contender this year? Yes, based on last year's close call before the pitching implosion. It looked like we were a few pitchers shy of being a killer team. However, the team is rebuilding and is not done yet. When your team goes into rebuilding it doesn't just win two or three years later unless it's Yankee-style rebuilding. To say that someone is not a Jays fan because they're not freaking out that the team is losing DURING THE REBUILDING PROCESS is just plain ludicrous.

Geez, who said anything about reliving the past? I barely ever mention the WS winning teams - my fondest Jays memories are the teams of the 1980s, anyway.

My point was that the "woe is me" attitude - that anyone should feel the slightest twinge of sorrow or pity for themselves or others because the Jays are losing - is pathetic. I don't mind frustration or anger - but to say you feel hard done by because it's been a while since the Jays have been in contention is risible.

YOU ARE NOT, AND HAVE NOT BEEN, HARD DONE BY. Get over yourself - it's too bad that this year is in the tank (though the Jays will still finish third) but it happens. It's baseball.

Many situations and reasons have caused that, but they haven't been the model franchise they used to be and that bothers me.

I don't like it either, and it helps to have forums like this where we can point to mismanagement when we see it. That's one of the many reasons why I run Batter's Box (and pour a lot of time and energy into it - I like giving a voice to the fans).

Out of personal preference, I prefer not to freak out when my teams hit a bad patch, but to look ahead (not behind) to better days. This team has a reasonably bright future; those who think otherwise (and there are a lot of you out there) are fools. What's worse, it's purely the team's current struggles that have caused so many to think that the future is dim. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Of course, when the Jays make the playoffs in a couple years, we'll all go around telling everyone how we're "true" fans and never gave up on them when things were going badly.

Named for Hank that's a good question. And I don't have a very good answer.

I'd say having a realistic chance at a playoff spot after the All Star break counts as being in contention. I don't think that was the case in 1998. Teams don't come from being 10 games out at the end of August to get a playoff spot. That team was never really in the mix for a playoff spot, so I don't count them.

It's not that 4 games isn't close enough. If you started September (or August) in first place and ended up 5 or 6 games out of first you'd be in contention. And it's not that late season surges don't count. If the Jays had started September 5 games out and then gone 17-8 they'd have been in contenders (actually, I think they would have made the playoffs).

I realize this is all semantic, and if you want to consider that the Jays were contenders in 1998 because your definition of contention is closer to Leigh's than to mine that's fine, it doesn't really mean anything.

It's just been hard this year. I'm pretty positive about the team and its future, but watching the Grand Slam last night felt like a punch to the gut. I think people's feelings are just boiling over. Although that seems to happen every 10 days or so, followed by a game where the Jays 'turn it around' for the rest of the season.

This team has a reasonably bright future

Right on Craig. I'll go you one further and say that this team has a great future ahead of them. As hard as it may be to be a Toronto sports fan right now, the future for the Jays looks pretty good.
Go Jays!
:)

Did anyone else watching the Sportsnet telecast last night find it odd the way Candiotti kept referring to the potential second, third and fourth Texas runs when they were on base as meaningless? I understand the point of his remarks, but only in the context of the ninth inning.

I thought the same thing in the eighth. The reference to meaningless runs - especially when Soriano hit the potential SF to Rios and Nix was held back - is valid only in a 9th-innign context.

I would have held Nix back as well - he is not a particularly fast runner and he appeared to be in poor running position on the tag (they flashed his bluff very briefly and it seemed slow). And of course, with the hot bats of Fullmer and Teix comnig up behind, I'd rather take my shot at getting a hit and *two* runs.

But the fourth run was not "meaningless" - had Chulk retired Fullmer, being down one instead of down two going into the ninth is all the difference in the world.

I agree with your definiton of contention, Paul.

It kind of reminds me of that game this year where the Jays were losing 19-5, but scored a bunch of runs in the 9th to make it 19-13. They "only" lost by 6 runs, but they were never in position to win the game.

Same sort of deal, but with a season instead of a game.

Paul, are you saying that, had the 1998 Jays gone 22-3 in September (rather than 17-8) and the Sox gone 7-20 (rather than 12-15), that the Jays would have won the Wild Card despite never having been in contention (due to their poor standing as of the end of August)?

This is interesting, Aaron and Paul and everyone else: what is the criteria for contention?

It's just been hard this year. I'm pretty positive about the team and its future, but watching the Grand Slam last night felt like a punch to the gut. I think people's feelings are just boiling over. Although that seems to happen every 10 days or so, followed by a game where the Jays 'turn it around' for the rest of the season.

Totally. It's hard to keep perspective. I've felt like throwing things from time to time. But I'm still going to enjoy the rest of the season.

My definition of contention is pretty much whenever I can look at the standings and say "Hey, we're really in this" or "One good week and we can take them". Last season seemed awfully bright until I went on my holiday and came back two weeks later to find the team ten back. Still, having seen them massacre May and beat up on the Yankees and the Red Sox and come to within two of first after having been ten games back, ten games back didn't seem like they were out of the race until they stayed there for a while.

So I suppose it all depends on context.

This team has a reasonably bright future

Yes. This is what makes this year bearable, at least to me. I'd say the team has a chance of having a *very* bright future. Looking at the everyday lineup:

The outfield looks pretty set : Rios is only going to get better, Wells looks to be a potential MVP candidate, and two of Sparky, Cat, and Gross can play left. That looks to me to be one of the best outfields in baseball, and cheap too.

Hinske looks to be back; as a bonus, his defense has improved dramatically. Hudson is slumping, but should be fine. I still think Woodward has a chance to be a decent SS, but Adams is also a possibility here.
Between Cash, Quiroz and Zaun, I think that the catcher position is pretty solid too, but in order to figure this out, Cash *has* to play.

The biggest hole, is obviously, 1st base. Delgado's looking *terrible* at the plate, and I don't know what is up with Phelps. Ideally, Delgado would resign at a reasonable rate for one year in hopes of having a rebound year he can parlay into a last big deal.

That leaves the pitching staff, and obviously a lot depends on the status of Doc's shoulder. If he's healthy, then the Jays are a contender within two years. If not, the team is in trouble. This makes me think that no matter how bad things look now, the Jays should *not* trade either Batista or Lilly; if Doc needs to be shut down for awhile, these two guys are the most reliable starters on the team, there both signed through next year, and they're relatively cheap.

Yeah, last night's loss (and the one before that, and the one before that...) was pretty hard to take. The future still looks bright, though.

my fondest Jays memories are the teams of the 1980s, anyway.

I have a lot of fond memories that involve George Bell and a ten inch black & white TV or my dad's radio. I found my dad's radio while helping to clean out some of my parents' basement a few weeks ago, and it's positively huge compared to how I remembered it, which is pretty much the opposite of everything else.

Hinske looks to be back; as a bonus, his defense has improved dramatically.

Oh, totally. I forgot to mention it, but yeah, Hinske the alchemist has been a real treat.

Paul, are you saying that, had the 1998 Jays gone 22-3 in September (rather than 17-8) and the Sox gone 7-20 (rather than 12-15), that the Jays would have won the Wild Card despite never having been in contention (due to their poor standing as of the end of August)?

Doesn't have to be that wide. The Jays could have gone 19-6 and the Sox 10-17 and there would have been a one-game playoff.

Doesn't have to be that wide.

Correct you are. I am sleep-deprived and suffering from a nasty case of incompetence.

http://www.thewolfshack.com
Good question Leigh. My definition isn't exact, and falls apart abit at the boundaries, as you've demonstrated. I think the problem with your example is that it wasn't going to happen. Even Craig's example wasn't going to happen. Clemens wasn't going to pitch everyday, and Pedro was going to get his starts.

I think of being in contention as having a chance at a playoff spot. I didn't feel that they ever had a chance in 1998. This is obviously all subjective, and I can't give you a definition that doesn't include words like 'feel' or 'reasonable chance'. What's a reasonable chance? I'll tell you when I see one.

The first year I started seriously following the Jays was as an 8 year old in 1987. As heart breaking as that was, I'm pretty sure I'd go with the 87 season over this one though.

I have nothing to add here, except for this diagram from a patent application for some Enormous Ass Pants:



That is all.

I remember 1985 pretty strongly. When '92 came around and we made it past the ALCS I was floored.

FAN PANTS!!

I see your pants man, and raise you this:

I really don't understand why some people are so down on Russ Adams and the rest of the Jays farm system. All they have done is put up solid numbers in their short careers, which is a lot more than we can say for some of the Ash guys who didn't even make it to the majors or didn't do anything while they were here. For every Alexis Rios, there's a Felipe Lopez. For every Dustin McGowan, there's a Joey Lawrence.

I think it's sad that some people actually want to look back at the Gord Ash days. Yeah, the team spent money but for the most part they were just a mediocre waiste of money.

It seems that some Jays fans really don't know what they have in JP Ricciardi. He's a guy that came from a franchise in Oakland that couldn't spend the big bucks, and yet he, Beane, and Depodesta still found a way to get the job done through superior drafting and talent evaluating. While other teams draft high risk/high reward guys like the Miguel Negron's of the baseball world, the A's and the Jays under JP will take proven guys who STILL HAVE UPSIDE like Zito, Mulder, Hudson, Bush, Banks, Marcum, etc.

So please, while it might look bad right now... keep in mind that this is a rebuilding process as someone pointed out earlier and that there are bound to be ups and downs when a team rebuilds.

The good times will come folks, the good times will come.

I think that's absolutely right, DaveInNYC. People have to remember that with a $50 million payroll, you can't afford to purchase a lot of major league talent that's already been developed by other teams, and unless you feel like putting out AAA-calibre teams every year for the next five while you wait for the 18-year old high-ceiling superstars they seem to think each draft is crawling with mature, you have to select players a little closer to the Show.

The low minors are absolutely bursting with intriguing talent right now. The high minors less so, admittedly, but look at the positions those players play - Catcher (Quiroz) and shortstop (Adams, with Hill not far behind) - which happen to be the positions most in need of support at the big league level. The pitching isn't there yet, but injuries have played a big role in hampering the development of some, Bush hasn't looked out of place in the majors, and Peterson should be ready to contribute some innings next year.

This town has an awfully short memory, which makes it easy to be an Ash revisionist. I love listening to the grousing about JP's bullpen mistakes this year. Well, each of those guys, apart from Ligtenberg, are on a moderately priced, one-year deal. They're not working out? There's the door, gentlemen. I seem to recall the former GM had a penchant for long-term, big money deals. Anyone care to relive the Erik Hanson/Joey Hamilton glory days?

Well, now I'm really glad I went to Ottawa yesterday to see the Lynx (More details on the minor league thread about that) and missed that disaster. I could barely pick up last night's game on the radio flipping through 1050 and 1090 and then 620 and 550 AM. It's a dead zone for picking up Jays games after leaving the nation's capital. The Kingston or Trenton stations no longer broadcast baseball and one station in Ottawa only broadcasts 26 games. It's almost like Eastern Ontario is pretty much a deadzone for Blue Jays radio broadcasts. I'll really feel sorry for Ottawa baseball fans if the Lynx and Expos both leave next season as you can get the Team 990 in Montreal for 'Spos broadcasts. If I lived in the Ottawa area (or Kingston or Trenton!!), I'd be writing to my MP to restore Jays broadcasts on the radio. It's a national freaking institution!! I only started to get the game coming in from Trenton on WGR 550. It was a bad omen when Dave Campbell mentioned on the broadcast before the Jays blew the 5-0 lead that they could very well regret missing out on all the opportunities they had to score more runs. When I pulled over to fill up for gas in Trenton, my girlfriend woke up to ask how the Jays were doing, it was 5-1 at that point. When we got back home to Port Hope, she woke up for the post game and she couldn't believe it either. At least she slept through the debacle. Yikes!!!

I'd say having a realistic chance at a playoff spot after the All Star break counts as being in contention. I don't think that was the case in 1998. Teams don't come from being 10 games out at the end of August to get a playoff spot. That team was never really in the mix for a playoff spot, so I don't count them.

I considered the Jays to be contention in the '98, '99, and '00 seasons. If memory serves correctly about '98, didn't the Jays sweep the Bosox to chop the wild card lead from 9 down to 5 games early in September at the Dome and wasn't the gap cut to 3 at one point before they fell out it again?

In '99, they were in contention until mid-August before that horrific homestand against the A's and M's where I think they went 0-6.

In 2000, they were in it until the A's won that key series at the Dome at the beginning of September. I remember the Jays won on the Friday night before losing the next 3 when Wells got lit up on the Holiday Monday and lost it on the umpire.

Unless the definition for contention is the last week or two of the season, I think the Jays were in it those 3 seasons.

Agreed, Ash was an awful GM. The Jays have a much brighter future with J.P. running the show. I am curious to see how he goes about cleaning up this year's mess once the season is over. I have faith he'll improve things, which is at least better than having no faith in the GM like I did with Ash.

I didn't know they had released the World Series on DVD for older years? Does anyone have 1992 or 1993 on DVD, and how are they? Are they basically teh same as the videos that came out immediately afterwards, but on DVD, or is there any new material?

Of course, when the Jays make the playoffs in a couple years, we'll all go around telling everyone how we're "true" fans and never gave up on them when things were going badly.

True for some of us; others will whine that there's no way they will be able to keep Doc and Vernon in the fold, so the success cycle won't be long enough, or complain that merely making the playoffs doesn't define a good season, you have to win the World Series.

There is never a time in the history of human events when a calm, measured, reasoned reaction to disaster isn't better than panic.

What's happened this year is frustrating, but no one in the organization should use that frustration as grounds for doing anything they wouldn't otherwise do.

Craig, I couldn't agree more. My calm, measured, reasoned reaction to last night's game is that it really sucks to lose that way after playing so well, and to the disaster of the season as a whole, it's mostly disbelief. Fortunately, there will be no panic in the front office, so I am confident that my disappointment (and theirs, which exceeds that of even the most ardent fan) is temporary.

this screw up was 100% of (Tosca's) making

Batista walking the leadoff man, his hanging slider to Barajas and Delgado's error were the most costly blunders. How anyone can blame the manager for them is beyond me.

I realize that it's highly unlikely Tosca will be back next season, and that's too bad. He's a good man, and a smart baseball man, but a fresh start next spring under a new skipper may help erase the memory of 2004 for the returning players. The fates have dealt Carlos an impossible hand this year, and I defy any of the knee-jerk bashers to name anyone who would have achieved better results in the same circumstances. While you're at it, explain how and why this imaginary, presumably superior manager could have achieved such a miracle.

I didn't know they had released the World Series on DVD for older years? Does anyone have 1992 or 1993 on DVD, and how are they? Are they basically teh same as the videos that came out immediately afterwards, but on DVD, or is there any new material?

You can buy a DVD with both the 1992 and 1993 World Series highlight videos on it. They are the same that were released on VHS right after those series', but it's nice to have them on a DVD and together on one disk.

and I defy any of the knee-jerk bashers to name anyone who would have achieved better results in the same circumstances. While you're at it, explain how and why this imaginary, presumably superior manager could have achieved such a miracle.

Ummm... Joe Torre?? With his unbelieveable knack of being able to field any team, no matter how little the talent base and still win ring after ring...

Okay, I'll stop...

Ummm... Joe Torre?? With his unbelieveable knack of being able to field any team, no matter how little the talent base and still win ring after ring...

Um, how little the talent base? Torre is handed great player after great player. When one goes down he is given another. You have to give him credit for keeping all the egos in check but its tough to compare anything the Yankees do with what the Blue Jays do. Torre was an awful manager with the Cardinals and Mets, and he would be terrible with this depleted Jays squad as well.

I know Mike in CT, I know.

I was only kidding of course.

I live in NY... I know first hand how painfully overrated "The Don" Torre is by the fans and the New York City media.

Pssst...Mike, he's being a smartass. ;)

Sorry, missed the sarcasm. I work in New York City so any credit people give to Torre just gets me worked up :) .

Thanks for the compliment NFH, I merely thought I was just being an ass ;)

And I know how ya feel Mike, the credit he gets is absolutly insane. I would be willing to bet that ANY major league manager, yes any that includes Phil Garner, would be able to win with that team.

On a side note, I'm going to try and shoot an e-mail off to Tosca to see if he could have Hentgen start in Oakland tomorrow and let Bush pitch at Yankee Stadium on Wednesday. :)

Watching any Bush start >>> A Hentgen start this season.

Hopefully the Baseball Gods will answer my prayers. But then again, why would they? They haven't helped the Blue Jays before this season, I think they hate us. Maybe they hate Cuttlefish?!?!

Coach, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.
Are you saying Tosca is the best manager in the majors? If not, are you saying that it doesn't matter who the manager is?

If it's not one of those two then we could certainly have picked a manager that would have performed better.

At what price and good for how many wins? Minimal at best. As has been pointed out exhaustively, the core of the problems for this season have had very little to do with the managing of the games.

Torre was an awful manager with the Cardinals and Mets

This is absolutely untrue. Torre was a popular scapegoat with the Cardinals, but did a pretty decent job.

3) Is Dan Shulman calling the game on ESPN (TV)? Cause it's the Jays, it's Sunday Night Baseball, and there's no Shulman on radio!

I heard them say that Shulman "gets the Jays games off".. but I didn't understand if it was all of them or just the Sunday night ones, or what... but it sounds like its in his contract for some reason

Paul, I never said Tosca is the game's "best" manager, which is a purely subjective title anyway, difficult for me to bestow on anyone since the White Rat left the dugout. Carlos certainly doesn't deserve the abuse he receives from some people who seem to need a scapegoat after every loss, and in my opinion, he's done as good a job as anyone else would have this season, better than many with longer big-league resumes and more name recognition might have achieved in the same circumstances. It's been similar in some ways to what Alan Trammell did in 2003 -- impossible to appreciate for those who don't look beyond the box scores or the standings.

If you must put words in my mouth, OK, it doesn't matter who the manager is -- if you have a team built around three superstars, all of whom go on the DL and/or play hurt for a significant part of the season. When that happens, you simply are not going to win, no matter who is in charge. Turning a microscope on Tosca to magnify his flaws -- all managers are imperfect, you know -- is a misguided attempt to "explain" something that has been out of his control and is not his fault.

The inevitable change is in everyone's best interests. Carlos deserves another opportunity, maybe in the NL, and better luck. The Jays need to turn the page on the Season From Hell, so a new manager will at least be symbolic, though that's no guarantee he will be an improvement. Of course, if the Jays bounce back and overachieve in 2005, the new guy will get more than his share of credit.

Torre was a popular scapegoat with the Cardinals, but did a pretty decent job.

Right on. Joe actually did very well to hold things together as long as he did, but the franchise was in serious decline after the glory years of the Runnin' Redbirds. It's not easy to be a genius with a rotation of an aging Rick Sutcliffe, a fading Bob Tewksbury, mediocrities and rookies, a flammable bullpen and a punchless lineup, which were the buttons Joe had to push in '94. New ownership made sweeping changes, like hiring Jocketty and LaRussa, but to conclude that Joe couldn't have presided over the same renaissance is patently absurd. He was also unable to singlehandedly turn the '70's Mets into a winner, but immediately became much smarter in Atlanta, where he noticed Murphy and Horner on his roster and cleverly wrote their names into the lineup.

and in my opinion, he's done as good a job as anyone else would have this season,

Okay, fair enough, that's what I was asking.

I didn't put words in your mouth, I asked a question.