It was great to see Vernon in the lineup last night.

Particularly because, according to Marty York, he wasn't due back until way into August.

Good Dog!

What a catch by Hudson.

Why is Cash riding the pine again?

Zaun has been fading and you can't make the argument Tosca is trying to win as many games as possible because they are losing even with Zaun in the line-up. The worst case scenario is that they lose with Cash instead Zaun.

The only logical explanation is that Cash isn't in JP's short or long term plans.

I would love to hear the annoucers discuss this tonight!

That was a nice piece of work by Candiotti at the top of the broadcast, with the two clips of Halladay demonstrating how his arm angle has changed.

I hope it was Gil Patterson who let Candiotti in on it, and not the other way around.

For all the stat heads, does anyone have O-Dog's BA since returning from his injury?

.241

.247, but he's only 5 for 39 this month.

Hudson came off the DL on June 17, and hit .348 for the rest of that month.

But he's hitting only .128 in July, and has two hits in his last 36 at bats.

So it's not the old injury... maybe a new one?

His OBP since then is .365 though.

And it's mostly because he's 1 for his last 26. Before July 6, he was hitting .328 since returning.

He's just slumping right now.

Particularly because, according to Marty York, he wasn't due back until way into August.

Why would that lead you to believe anything other than that Vernon would return in July? Well, I guess you could make a case for September.

Hey, did anyone listen to the Blue Jays This Week? Wilner said he was going to ask Lilly about the Theodore Roosevelt Ks, and I didn't get a chance to tune in.

Tosca's lineups are starting to really get me. Reed Johnson sucks against righties. Can't hit them at all. O-Dog should hit leadoff against righties. Also, as Ron ponted out, why is Greg Zaun playing ahead of Cash. I would also like to question why he is hitting fifth game in and game out.

Reed Johnson vs R. .315 OBP, .365 SLG
Hudson Vs R. .374 OBP, .432 SLG

Zaun in
June-.684 OPS
July-.664 OPS

Phelps in July-1.141 OPS

Don't look now, but when Cat comes back, Johnson SHOULD go to the bench against righties. Look at these splits

Johnson
June-.642 OPS
July-.648 OPS

Rios
June-.672 OPS
July-.781 OPS

What are the chances that Kerry wins in Texas?

The question is "What will the Cat be hitting like when he comes back after this injury and layoff?"

$5 that when Cat comes back he will get injured again before the season is over.

So, who gets dumped when the Cat is activated ? Presumably it's the 12th pitcher (Hentgen, Chulk , File ?) or one of Menechino/Berg/Woodward. Thoughts anybody ?

Barring an amazing 2 out, 4 run rally, the Jays are about to lose another game due to the inability to score runs and mainly the inability to drive in runners in scoring position.

And can anyone tell me where Carlos Delgado is? Because this horrible replica is exactly that, horrible.

Looks like Tosca's rally the troops speech hasn't worked. The Jays have come out really flat in both games since the all-star break.

Looks like the players just want the season to end.

This is a very bad team, no other way to put it. J.P. has A LOT of work to do if he is going to straighten this mess out.

Blue Jays leave the bases juiced ... doo dah, doo dah.

Today's game was worse than Yesterday's.

It sucks cause I was sure that with Carlos and Vernon back, this team would go on a tear. But now I'm not so sure.

Funny that while Carlos was out I completely forgot how bad he was when he was in.

Just depressing.

To look on the bright side I'm positive the Jays will end the season with a better record than the Expos and the D-Backs!!!

The race will 4th place in the AL East will be thrilling!

Fourth? The Jays will finish third.

I really WANT to believe that the Jays can and will finish in 3rd this season... but the realistic part of me tells the homer side in me to face the facts. The Devil Rays are a better team than the Jays are. Their record says it, and they even show it when they play the Jays. Baltimore on the other hand, I think they are just a really poor ballclub. I think the Jays can get 4th this season. 3rd would be a nice surprise... which is a sad statement in itself.

Fourth? The Jays will finish third.

I'm with Craig on this one. As bad as this season has been, I still believe this team will have a good run, and will climb in the standings. I just don't think they are this bad of a team.

There's no way I see the Jays finishing 3rd.

Rememember the Jays still have to face the Yanks 19 times.

After game 1 I thought the team wasn't that bad, after Game 50 I thought the team wasn't that bad, after Game 70 I thought the team wasn't that bad and now the Jays have played 90 games and they're still a bad club. How many more games do the Jays have to play before some of you admit the record does indicate where the club is at?

Putting my homer cap down, the Jays flat out stink. 90 games in with a soft schedule and they're dead last in the division. The Jays don't have a bullpen, don't have pop in the lineup, can't hit with RISP, etc...

It's time to call a Spade a Spade.

Even with the poor record I will still watch the games because I'm a Jays fan, but I'm not in denial that this is a good club (or even as some said before the season was capable of challenging for the wild card)

They won't finish third with Delgado continuing to play like he's not in the lineup and Halladay apparently hurting. Remember 86 wins was with Delgado, Halladay, and Wells having huge years. Granted the team has shored up other areas this year but unless those core players carry the team then they aren't going to catch Tampa Bay whose best players are actually performing like it.

Based on run differential TB should be behind the Jays in the standings but based on actual results that's not the case. The Jays do have a pen by the way. It's Frasor, Chulk, and pray for a six run lead.

BTW, after seeing today's game on TV I now understand why Drese's ERA at home is so good. This Texas infield is quicksand. I swear there was a routine grounder to Hinske and I thought the ball would die before it got to him. You have no hope of getting groundball basehits on this surface unless you absolutely smash it.

It's time to call a Spade a Spade.

I agree completely with this statement. The excuses have grown old. The Toronto Blue Jays of 2004 are a BAD team. No more excuses, it's time to figure out how this dissaster can be fixed. There are very few positives on this team so figuring out where to build from will be a difficult challenge.

I am a Jays fan and I always will be, but this season has been unacceptable.

The Jays are terrible. But it isn't the team's record that bothers me the most (although it's pretty hard to take). It's the long-term outlook. Make no mistake, Halladay's injury is by far the biggest blow to the team this year. The next biggest is McGowan's.

The two things the Jays need to compete in the future are (i) a rock-solid major-league core (Halladay, Wells, Hinske, Hudson, now Rios); (ii) a rock-solid farm system. Both have been heavily undermined by the injuries to Halladay, McGowan, and Rosario. And while the Jays have some decent prospects coming, the lack of dominant pitching in AA and above is, I would argue, cause for concern.

I wish I were playing cheerleader, not critic, right now...

Besides the lack of pitching, the Jays don't any mashers in AAA and AA.

The best hitting prospect the Jays have right now is Russ Adams. You''ll be lucky to get 15 HR's out of the guy.

I've mentioned this before, but JP needs to call up the Twins and inquire about Justin Morneau. It's a damm shame the Twins are jerking him around between the majors and AAA. It's obvious the Twins don't think too highly of him or else he would have sticked with the big club all season. He's abused AAA pitching and he won't benefit from playing down there.

I would give up pretty much anybody on the Jays roster/farm team in a straight up deal to get him outside of Doc and Wells.

Wow, lots of negativity about a farm system that seems to be producing pretty well. Rios, Adams, Gross, Hill, Quiroz, Bush and Chulk all began the year in the minors, and they all have a solid chance to be quality regulars by next year. I'll agree that there isn't an Albert Pujols in the bunch, but at least we've got some depth.

As for the lack of big hitters in the minors, I'm more concerned that the mashers with the big club (Delgado, Phelps, Hinske, Wells) aren't mashing. Replacing Delgado will be hard enough, but if Phelps and Hinske don't start hitting home runs, I don't know where this team is going to find the power it needs to compete in this division.

The injuries and the poor hitting with runners in scoring position have both been frustrating and perplexing, but I'm not sure there is anything that can be done except wait for the worm to turn.

But the lack of power is a huge problem for Ricciardi. I think it's his most pressing concern; he has to figure out where it went, and how to get it back.

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Evidence?

I don't think evidence points out that the Jays are the worse team by far.
D-Rays RS 396, RA 400, difference is -44.

Blue Jays RS 443, RA 489, difference is -56.

So I'd say by the run scored methods the Jays aren't doing that much worse than the D-rays at this point in the season. Obviously, there was the BP sentiment that higher absolute values of RS and RA means lower win totals, but still... and of course, the Yanks currently rank worse than the Red Sox in the RS-RA category, so we all know how much win totals can fluctuate (depending on luck, managerial competence, annoying TB fan in the stands right behind home plate).

I dunno, I still like the team, most likely we'll finish 3rd, depending on whether we deal Delgaldo or not. If we do, then finishing 3rd will definitely be a stretch (but of course you all know that).

It's obvious the Twins don't think too highly of him or else he would have sticked with the big club all season.

Perhaps I've missed some history, but how are they jerking him around? He's only 23 yrs old and has had to wait patiently while the parent club cycles through some more veteran options at his position. Isn't this par for the course for most clubs?

He hit cleanup for the Twinkies last night and clubbed a HR, as his team won and kept pace with the White Sox in a tight race. I'd say that's an indication they think highly of him!

I'm probably one of the few Jays fans who is slowly beginning to feel more apathy towards the farm system. Someone in this thread mentioned that the Jays don't have a dominant pitching prospect in AA or above, which begs the question, if they are not in AA or above, can they be considered dominant pitching prospects? I wouldn't say so.

With Ash's draft picks slowly starting to climb to the majors, the minors are beginning to resemble Ricciardi's play house. Pitching prospects with bottom of the rotation upside, hitters who can draw walks but not hit for any sort of average, and low upside up and down the system. I don't want to see a system of Jason Arnold's and Russ Adams' floating around in a few years, regardless of how high BP and BA rank our drafts.

Our best best for success is to get pitching from outside the organization, meaning spending legit dough on Matt Clement or someone comparable. There just isn't any pitching coming up through the system that have front end ability, and you're fooling yourself if you think any team can win without that, especially in the AL East. Not to mention Ricciardi and good pitching decisions can't be put in the same sentence without laughter echoing in the background.

Optimism is not a theme today, I can tell.

Ron: I'm not sure Adams is the best hitting prospect the Jays have. Gross and Hill are about on a par with Adams. Quiroz may not be far behind. Curtis Thigpen, albeit in an earlier stage of development, also looks pretty good.