Vernon back in the lineup. Anyone know who they sent out? Was it Clark?

Yeah, it was Clark. Howarth just said so as he was reading out the lineup.

Today's line-up is just beautiful.

Johnson
Hinske
Wells
Delgado
Zaun
Rios
Phelps
Hudson
Gomez

This just in: Delgado will not waive his no-trade clause.

Candiotti seems to think it means that Delgado really wants to negotiate and stay in Toronto beyond this season. This may be the case, but I don't know how much to read into it - it could just be a question of him not wanting to relocate for three months and then go somewhere else again.

if carlos not waiving his no-trade means he wants to stay in toronto and he's willing to take a major pay cut for next year (maybe 2yr at 6M each), i say bring him back... he's still a great player, just grossly overpaid.

Unless, of course, he continues to hit .223. Then let him go without a second thought.

6/year would be a lowball offer. 8/year for 3 years sounds like an offer they might put on the table. As someone pointed out in another thread, if he agreed to a trade, saving 6 million this season, they could actually offer him 10/year for 3 (if they decided to carry the money into future budgets).

It also seems likely that whoever trades for Carlos will want the Jays to pay the balance of this year's salary anyway.

Doc's not looking to good, so far.

I hope the Jays have some offence to offer.

I'm concerned with Doc. He's been average all throughout the season.

Average ain't bad, but when you sign a long term deal worth more than 10 mil a season I expect CY Young contender stuff.

This season has been a disaster hopefully everybody bounces back next season and the Jays can make a run at the wild card.

Anybody know the list for FA bullpen guys and hitters for next season?

Halladays's control has been poor in regard to his recent track record. Plus, it seems he is pitching out there without his top breaking ball. Maybe its the injury, who knows???

I sure hope it's Halladay's injury that is affecting him this season because he has looked very ordinary. He certainly hasn't resembled an ace who won 41 games the previous two seasons. They have needed him to really step up this season but he hasn't at all. It's pretty discouraging after he signed that big contract.

Just looked at the live boxscore (espn) and yeah, those are most un-Halladay-like numbers. Weird. On the same night that Wells returns and starts out 2 for 2. If it isn't one thing with this team, it's another. Call it the Hex of 2004. (I hope it's a hex, anyway, and not a fraying labrum problem...)

Boy, how devastating would it be if Halladay's injury was as serious as a damaged labrum? I don't mean to jump the gun on this one, but I hope he gets back to his form of 2003.

A guy tanks after signing a big long term contract ... geez that never happens!

I'm banking on Doc coming back next year .. at least I sure hope he does because he has a terrible contract if he once again performs like he has this season.

It looks like Delgado is really bothered with the contract/trade talk. He's been playing even worse than he did before the injury.

O-Dog has been really tanking at the plate too.

On the bright side Adams and Spier only signed a one year deal:)

On espn.com, Lilly is listed as the scheduled starter for tomorrow's game and then Bush for Sunday's in Texas. Very superstitious, I'd say.

I'm quite worried about Doc. If he has a shoulder problem that needs surgery to fix, then let's do it now. This season is lost and he'll need the maximum amount of time to get ready for 2005.

Even including tonight, Halladay's runs allowed ratio is still 7% better than league average, and that doesn't even take into account park factor. His component stats entering tonight suggested he has pitched a little better than the runs allowed ratio indicates. He had some bad games last year which run support covered up. I'm not saying he's been as good as last year (when he was ~25% better than average), but he's still been pretty good.

Not to be a Cassandra, but aren't shoulder problems usually pretty devastating for a pitcher? Joey Hamilton comes to mind, and that guy Ash got for David Wells...

He hasn't been very good. He can't hide behide these "runs allowed ratio" stats. Simple fact is he has not been the ace this season that he is being paid to be.

I sure hope Doc is just having an off year and doesn't have major shoulder problems. High risk factor in never returning to your old form.

I'm also worried to see how McGowan comes back from TJS.

Back to Delgado, I'm curious to see how much JP will offer him, if he even makes an offer at all.

If Delgado goes JP needs to go out and sign a number 4 hitter. I don't know who's out there.

Delgado seems like he's trying to raise his batting average. Since he's come off the DL, I don't think he's taken a single walk and he's struck out a ton. Very unlike him.

I don't really mind if Halladay gets beat up a bit, but I can't tolerate seeing all these walks this year. If he gets his control back I think he'll be OK.

I'm sure with Doc there is a concern with innings pitched/pitches thrown but in the old days didn't teams go with 4 man rotations and pitch counts over 115 weren't that rare?

I would think with a extra day rest and better health info and technology, arm/shoulder related injuries for pitchers should actually decrease.

I guess the curse of 2004 wasn't just a first half thing. Along with Halladay, Josh Banks got hit hard again in AA. What a discouraging season it's been. This won't be good for the dwindeling Blue Jays fan base.

File, Adams, now Speier. It's painfully clear there is no place for Hentgen in the Jays' plans. Why don't they get it over with - just release him and open a roster spot for another prospect - the money is spent one way or the other. Come on JP - don't let your heart rule your head !!

Well, look on the bright side...

Um...

Okay you're right, it looks pretty dim.

I agree with Scott Carson, I really think Doc has a problem and should undergo another medical examination of his shoulder,(arm).
The team looks really flat tonite, maybe the heat or the first game after the break, (or the opposition)

Roy just doesn't look like he's in control out there, he always seems to be finding himself in trouble and doesn't seem able to battle out of it. Maybe it's a shoulder problem, maybe the hitters have caught on to him. Let's just hope he can work it out for '05.

I really hate Buck Showalter. Nice of him to bring in his closer Cordero to get the final out in a 9 run game. I guess Almanzar was clearly worn out by Phelps after that gruelling 5 pitch at-bat.

That's not the first time Bucky's pulled that stunt on Toronto. I remember him bringing in Erasmo Ramirez for his ML debut to get the final out in a blow-out last season at the Dome. Showalter's got no class to be pulling stuff like that. That's just adding insult to injury. I hope the Jays take the next 2 in this series.

As for Halladay, I agree he should be put on the DL because he isn't the same Doc he was the last 2 years.

I'm just throwing a thought out.

If Carlos does resign, it seems unlikely he would be given another no-trade clause. However, won't one or two more seasons with the Jays make Carlos a 10 and 5 player?

I don't know what the cause is for the Jays poor showing in 2004 but no more excuses, truth is, the team that we have watched take the field on a daily basis is simply a bad team. There is no other way to phrase it. Nobody has played up to expectations. J.P. is going to have to spend the offseason figuring out why.

Everything that could have possibily gone wrong has gone wrong this season. The neverending list of injuries (Approaching 20 players), the slumping superstar/heart of the offense, the bullpen veterans consistently imploding. I think no matter what this team will be better next year, they have to be. There's no way they could be any worse.

Even when the squad was healthy the Jays were brutal.

If I put myself in JP's shoes I would be puzzled as to why the Jays are so bad this year.

They basically have the same offence as last season in which Phelps and Hinske struggled. They managed to win 86 games with 2 decent SP's, one started the year as the closer. The bullpen was bad.

This year JP brought in the same offence, and on paper vastly improved the bullpen and starting pitching.

Nobody thought Delgado, Hinske, Phelps, and Wells would all be zapped of their power. Nobody saw Cat being injured for most of the season. Nobody saw all 3 veteran relievers brought in would stink up the joint.

I'm hoping it's just a bad year all around.

Wait, if last year we over-achieved, and this year we underachieved, then maybe it evens out.

Of course, baseball is not witch science.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/delgaca01.shtml
Good point Cristian. COMN for Delgado's career stats.

8 full years, 1996-2004 (assuming this is a full year).
91 at bats in 1995 and 130 in 1994. Also 1 in 1993.
So I count that as 8.5 years of service, meaning he will have "10 and 5" rights if he signs a 2+ year contract here, right?

Wait. I can check the media guide for Carlos' service time. It says 9.002 years, so there you go. He needs 0.998 more years to qualify for 10 and 5, so a two year contract is right.

I think it's extremely unlikely the Jays re-sign Carlos. I just don't think they can offer him the money or the length of contract that he wants. (I'm not sure they should, either.) Given his performance this year, I also doubt any other team would be willing to guarantee him a multi-year contract in mid-season. This may be one reason he isn't willing to waive his no-trade clause.

OK, if no one else will say anything positive about Halladay, I will.

He's 24th in the league in ERA, but...

- 18th in the league in Component ERA

- 4th in the league in DIPS ERA

- His strikeout rate is only 3% lower than in 2003, higher than in 2002

- His strikeout/walk ratio is 2.44 K/BB, which is still very good, and near his 2002 level

- He's still getting ground balls and double plays

His problems appear to be:

1) He's walking batters at above his 2002 rate

2) He's giving up home runs at near his 2003 rate

3) He's giving up a huge number of singles

Another weird stat: Halladay's opponent's slugging percentage is 24 points lower than last year. In 2003 he gave up 54 doubles, 7 triples, 26 homers. This year, he's given up only 16 doubles, 0 triples, and 10 homers. But he's given up 35% more singles.

I'm not discounting the possibility that he's hurt, but sometimes, stupid things happen (see Steve Carlton, 1973).

Halladay's 2004 numbers projected over 266 innings, compared to his 2003 numbers:

      IP  HT DB  T  HR  BB  SO
2003 266 253 54  7  26  32 204
2004 266 284 36  0  23  81 198

And compared to his 2002 numbers, projected over 239.3 innings:

        IP  HT DB  T  HR  BB  SO
2002 239.3 223 43  4  10  62 168
2004 239.3 256 32  0  20  73 178

Am I bored, or what?

Showing my lack of baseball CBA knowledge here but anyway...

What is a "10 and 5"? And what does it mean essentially?

What is a "10 and 5"? And what does it mean essentially?

I may be overlooking some nuances, but a "10 and 5" man is a player with 10+ years of service, the last 5 of which have been with his current time. A "10 and 5" man cannot be traded without his consent, instituting a de facto no trade clause into his contract.

Er, that should be team, not time.

What is a "10 and 5"? And what does it mean essentially?

10 years, 5 with the same team. It means, I believe that you can veto any trade.

P Smith:

I would agree with about Halladay. I haven't seen him that much this year, but it seems to me he's been insanely unlucky. In his start against Anaheim, batters were just throwing the bat at the ball...
and getting stupid bloop hits. Even tonight, it looked like he got batters to swing at bad pitches, only to have the ball sneak through the infield.

The only thing that worries me is his control, which has been much more erratic this year.

I really, *really* hope he's not hurt. I'm not sure the Jays have any hope of contending in the next few years without a healthy Doc.

10 years, 5 with the same team. It means, I believe that you can veto any trade.

Ah, thanks Scott and Lindsay. So essentially what this means is that if Delgado does re-sign with the Jays, an unlikely but not impossible event, then whether or not he had a no-trade clause in his new contract he would still have one that was guaranteed by the CBA itself. That's interesting.

I would have Doc examined again ASAP. I can't believe he's pitching when they suspect fraying of the rotator cuff. If the fray develops into a tear then there goes a $40 million investment down the tubes. The pitcher cannot be trusted to diagnose himself; often by the time he knows something is seriously wrong a bad injury has already occured.

Delgado has gone back to hitting like he was before he got hurt which is without a clue. He's swinging at anything and everything and occasionally he'll get lucky and hit it out of the park. But seeing him repeatedly trying to pull Drese' sinker got on my nerves. The one time he actually went the other way with the pitch he got robbed.

Until he goes the other way more often and stops swinging at pitches inside and at his shoulders he's going to keep having problems.

THIS DOESN'T SOUND PROMISING:

Roy Halladay admitted tonight that his shoulder still isn't completely right.
"There isn't any pain, it's hard to say what I'm going through right now," Halladay said. "My pitches don't have the life like they did before. It feels tired at times, it doesn't feel serious." It still appears that Halladay will make his next scheduled start Wednesday. "I don't know what the best thing to do is right now," he said. "We'll just play it by ear and see how things play out. I'm not always 100 percent out there."

I've noticed Delgado is swinging really early in the count. Most of his AB's don't even last 3 pitches.

It looks like everytime he goes up to the plate he's trying to knock it out of the yard regardless of what and where the pitch is.

Roy Halladay admitted tonight that his shoulder still isn't completely right.
"There isn't any pain, it's hard to say what I'm going through right now," Halladay said. "My pitches don't have the life like they did before. It feels tired at times, it doesn't feel serious." It still appears that Halladay will make his next scheduled start Wednesday. "I don't know what the best thing to do is right now," he said. "We'll just play it by ear and see how things play out. I'm not always 100 percent out there."

This could be big, big trouble. I've never seen a team go through such devastating misfortunes as the 2004 Jays have. I hope things reverse themselves in 2005. The Jays can't afford more decreases in attendance or more pessimism among the fan base.

Knowing how much Doc wants to win and the unwritten code for jocks about not disclosing injury or pain, I would get Doc checked out ASAP.

From that quote he's admitting something isn't right with his shoulder and there's problems. I would shut him down the rest of the season if I had to. He's way too valuable to mess around with and risk even further long term damage.

Phew. The Indians hit eight home runs tonight, including four in the 9th inning, but fell short of the Jays' record.

How the heck did we ever hit TEN home runs in a game?