I'm not sure if I like how JP has been handling the roster this year. First Rios comes up, which may or may not have been too early. Then Peterson, for some unknown reason completely skips AAA to come here when it was completely unnecessary. And now Bush, who has an ERA over 4 (granted he's been better as of late) is called up. I just don't know if JP is handling these players the right way.

I don't entirely disagree with you, but what were the alternatives? I don't see too many, given the confines of the 25 and 40 man rosters and the number of injuries the Jays have had.

Had the Jays not been plagued by injuries, I don't think we see Rios, Peterson, Frasor, or Bush up yet.

Thanks to Ryan for the heads up.

Would this be the Ryan formerly known as Rob? ;)

But EVERYONE on this site is named Mike or Ryan. Get with the program.

Thanks for the heads up. :)

Looking just at ERA is highly misleading. All of Bush's core stats - strikeouts, walks and homeruns allowed are well above the International League average for starting pitchers.

My dad's name is Mike, and his brother's name is Ryan, so I'll accept it for now. :)

My dad's name is Mike, and his brother's name is Ryan, so I'll accept it for now. :)

Ahh.. so they ran out of names when they got to you. ;)

Before someone points it out Nakamura spells his first name Micheal. Doesn't look right to me, so I'll keep spelling it the other way.

You can always just call Nakamura "Mike."

I was this close to going to Buffalo to watch Bush pitch tomorrow. Good thing I didn't go.

http://me.woot.net

Nakamura spells his first name Micheal. Doesn't look right to me, so I'll keep spelling it the other way.

OK, Moffat.

OK, Moffat.

Fine. I'll be more accurate when I spell my own last name:



I still Mr. Nakamura's first name should be spelled MichAEL. The KJV agrees with me. :)

But former NBA All-Star Micheal Ray Richardson does NOT agree with you. And I think we all know that celebrity endorsements outweigh actual documented research these days.

I must admit the headline scared me as I briefly thought "Up With Bush" was the lede into another political rant.

Incidentally, my name is "Michael," too. Oh, great old '70's song ... "My name is Michael, I got a nickel, I got a nickel, shiny and new ..."

But former NBA All-Star Micheal Ray Richardson does NOT agree with you. And I think we all know that celebrity endorsements outweigh actual documented research these days.

Former Governor Ann Richards says if "Michael" was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for the NBA.

I'm also a Michael who gets called "Mick" by his family. And I know that song way, way too well.

Welcome to Toronto (via Puerto Rico), David Bush!

From all accounts, Bush pitches in the same fashion as Gary Roberts plays hockey, i.e. with grit, skill and intensity. That should make him a fan favorite here.

I'm not sure if I like how JP has been handling the roster this year. First Rios comes up, which may or may not have been too early. Then Peterson, for some unknown reason completely skips AAA to come here when it was completely unnecessary. And now Bush, who has an ERA over 4 (granted he's been better as of late) is called up. I just don't know if JP is handling these players the right way.

These guys are getting a look and/or getting their feet wet for next year. I have no problem with the call-ups, unless it triggers free agency a year earlier (which is potentially the case with Rios).

The only roster issue I had this year was the one that resulted in Harper being claimed. If someone else, that potentially has a future with the team (which I think Nakamura does), is taken off the 40 man roster and lost that'll be a bad roster move. If room needs to be made get rid of Berg, Menechino, Clark or someone else that has no chance of contributing to the next playoff contender.

I think Pistol is right. In part, JP is trying to sort things out for next year. Calling up Bush (and Peterson and Rios) lets him see how far along these players are. If Bush is going to start full-time in 2005, it might be worth getting him some big-league exposure.

Incidentally, on the radio yesterday JP said that the organization is trying to rehab Gross's throwing arm to avoid surgery. For now he's tossing from about 100 feet.

Perhaps Estalella goes to the 60 day DL to open up the spot on the 40 man?

How about dropping Lopez who hasn't pitched well in Syracuse.

Perhaps Estalella goes to the 60 day DL to open up the spot on the 40 man?

I was thinking the same thing. Don't the Jays have about a half a dozen guys who could go on the 60 day DL? This doesn't really solve the problem so much as delay it, but I'm still a little surprised that only Myers has been put on the 60 day this season.

Why don't the Jays just release Estalella? Cash is back, and Zaun is doing a good job, so there's really no need for him.

With all the problems the Jays have had with injuries, I don't see them tossing away depth. With the Jays luck, if they dump Estalella, Berg will end up being their starting catcher in a week's time. Did any of us expect he'd be the starting left fielder? But he is, due to lack of depth caused by injuries.

Mind you, now that Q is back, this problem is mitigated somewhat. I still think there has to be someone that can go on the 60-day DL.

What you say about depth is true, but given the choice between a third catcher and a starting pitcher, well...;)

I guess they have other options though.

Wow, I don't know if any of you saw the Sox-Yanks, but that was one of the greatest - if not the greatest - game I've ever seen.

I watched that game... what a beaut.

Jeter with one of the best, if not THE BEST, hustle play that I've ever seen.

Whether you like Jeter or hate him, it was an outstanding play. Check out sportscenter for the highlights. Definitely one of the best games I've ever seen.

There is a crazy rumor raging about at the Sons of Sam Horn message board:

Sox get: Odalis Perez and Carlos Delgado
Jays get: Cesar Izturis and minor-league pitcher
Dodgers get: Nomar and Kim

Maybe the Sox fans are just plain delusional.

http://p086.ezboard.com/fsonsofsamhornbostonredsox.showMessageRange?topicID=13571.topic&start=1&stop=20

Depodesta would have had to lose his mind. Giving up Perez and Izturis and getting back Kim and Nomar (and I'd have to assume cash) makes little sense. Depending on who the pitcher is, that wouldn't be that bad a deal for the Jays. I'd have to assume the pitcher would be coming from the Red Sox system, so if it was somebody like Lester that might make some sense.

But the deal makes no sense from the Dodgers' perspective.

Makes sense for the Dodgers to me.
The improve their hitting, and very slighty downgrade their pitching. The teams it doesn't make sense for is the Jays and Sox. The Sox already have David Ortiz, probably the most clutch player in baseball... and the Jays, well if that pitcher isn't a grade A prospect, then it's a waste, even if Carlos does leave at the end of the season.

After reading the humongous thread from the Sam Horn board, I assume the minor league pitcher would be one of the dodger's top three minor league arms (Jackson, Greg Miller, Hanrahan). It is still a unsubstantiated rumor from a NESN leak but nevertheless interesting.

I dunno. Delgado is making 18.5 million this year right? If you offer him arbitration, isn't the least amount of money he could make 90% of 18.5? And if that's the case, they sure as hell aren't going to take the risk of offering him arbitration. So it's not like he's worth 2 draft picks.

Plus, by trading him you get to save like $6 million bucks. More like $9.25 if he gets traded now.

Hell, there's a good shot that if they don't trade him by July 31st they'll send him through waivers and hope he gets claimed.

Unless of course you think they can still make the playoffs.

Just looked up the basic agreement and the 20% reduction rule (I erroneously thought it was 10%) doesn't apply. Sorry about that.

Nomar's mysterious absence from a 14th inning marathon is the only real fact that can't be debunked. I'd say the rumor could very well be hogwash as I posted but why would he sit for the duration???

The claim is his achilles was tight and he had trouble stretching it out. So sayeth Francona, anyway. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=mlb&id=1833173

In an alternate universe, a latin trio of Ortiz, Manny & Delgado would be absolutely devestating. Too bad Frank McCourt & Paul Depodesta aren't as gullible as this rumor makes them out to be. LOL

I'd like to think that there's no chance that the Jays would try to get some team to claim Delgado on waivers. I can just see Griffen's headline now "White Jays get whiter, Delgado claimed by Los Angeles" The optics on that sort of move would be absolutely terrible.

Granted, the Red Sox did that sort of thing with Manny, but that at least made some sense. The Jays would be better off pulling an Escobar and just say that they can't afford him. If they could find a half-decent, cheap replacement, and spend some money on a free agent, then it'd look a lot better, even if they still let him go for free.

The optics thing kills the trade idea, too. "Delgado traded for former Jays cast-off, nameless prospect". Meh. It might wind up to be a good trade, but Delgado's eventual departure is a ticking PR timebomb.

I get the whole PR thing, but unless you plan on offering Delgado arbitration, you got to choose between the lesser of two evils. Will it be the bad PR or will it be flushing $6 million down the toilet that could be used to land a starting pitcher next year?

If you ask me, losing is the worst PR of all.

Good angle on the PR question. J.P. doesn't strike as the type of guy who would set himself up for ridicule by acquiring a player he traded away a few years ago.

I like Itzuris's gold glove caliber defense and improving bat. O-Dawg and Cesar would be a killer combo for the next 5 years...........Too bad its a fantasy. The dodgers would have to be absolutely infatuated with Nomah to pull the trigger on soemthing like this.

To be honest, I'd rather have a ceremony where the 6 million is piled into a nice stack, have JP and Godfrey light a few torches, and have it go up in flames.

Casual fans would look at waiving Delgado as being the last straw, IMO. It'd be saying that:

A) The Jays can't afford him
B) They couldn't find any trade value for him

Now, A) is tolerable, as the Jays managment has been prepping the city for that situation. So, if the Jays let him go, or traded him, that probably could be understood. But if the Jays waived him, in order to save some money, which would then be spent on . . . oh, say a Ted Lilly level pitcher, it'd look terrible, and when you're drawing around 20,000 to games, you don't waive your franchise player, no matter how good your intentions are.

The money saved probably wouldn't help the Jays get many more wins next year, anyways, as they already have some of it tied up in increases in current deals, and they're planning on slashing two million from the payroll as it is.

Wow. BostonDirtDogs.com is staking their reputation on this whopper. Bizarre stuff:

"SoSH Poster Reports Garsitaparra Deal Done

Nomar to Dodgers?

Boston Red Sox would get: Odalis Perez and Carlos Delgado
Toronto Blue Jays would get: Cesar Izturis and minor-league pitcher
Los Angeles Dodgers would get: Nomar and BK Kim

Updated "FungoHesketh" post: "I have no new info. There was going to be a press conference to announce a trade tonight, my source claims involving the Dodgers and Blue Jays, and then the press conference was canned. Did the trade break down? Are they waiting until the morning after a tough loss, or for another reason? I don't know, and probably won't have any new information for a while. I apoligize (sic) for this thread, as for whatever reason, there is no deal to report." SoSH report"

Let's get real here. We have Chris Gomez playing first base, Dave Berg and Howie Clark playing left field. Do we really think JP is dumb enough to trade Delgado for another middle infielder?

I'm not saying I think the trade is real or anything, because I do agree that it sounds crazy, but if the minor league pitcher was Edwin Jackson, then I'd still do it in a second. This is a pitcher who will be under our control for the next 5 seasons who is almost certain to be an average pitcher and could be something special. In a second I'd do it. But the trade sounds like rumour mongering to me. The rest of it seems just silly

I just went to Sportsnet.ca to see if the king of rumour mongering, Marty York, had anything to say about this, and I find out Vince Carter wants a trade. What a night.

I can't imagine that it would be Edwin Jackson, though. Odalis Perez, Cezar Izturis & a Joel Hanrahan type prospect would probably be overpaying for a Nomar/Kim package.

I'm still waiting for Delgado/Bush for Radke/Morneau to go down (with the Jays assuming financial differentials)

With all due respect to the originator of this "leak", it sounds like a load of hockey pucky. Wake me up when it's confirmed. And I mean that literally, I'm going to sleep now.

I honestly dont think Carlos walking is a definate this off season. I dont see how he gets paid close to his current contract by ANY team. Forgive me if i'm wrong but I think Vladdy signed for 12 mill a year? If thats the case I can't see Carlos getting more than 8-10 where ever he goes. The markets have changed. I believe JP when he says there is an honest possibility of bringing Carlos back and its something he's trying to do.

I also agree very much with the previous comments above that him going to waivers, being traded for good "unknown" guys and prospects, or his money being pocketed after he walks would be a PR nightmare in this fickle city.

It would seem like JP would be admitting defeat by taking back Isturis, a guy the Jays really dont need. I can't imagine JP thinks Isturis is the hitter he has been so far this year, after all, he traded him thinking he had no stick, and never would.

Let's get real here. We have Chris Gomez playing first base, Dave Berg and Howie Clark playing left field. Do we really think JP is dumb enough to trade Delgado for another middle infielder?

The reason JP wouldn't trade for a MI is Adams and Hill. Gomez, Berg and Clark very likely won't be with the team next year. They aren't any consideration in any trade the Jays would make.

Has the roster move been made yet?

Why do we need Itzuris, Russ Adams is probably only a month or two way from getting the call to the show and Aaron Hill is a year away. I can't see that trade happening, at least not if Itzuris is included in the package.

If the Jays do trade Delgado, JP needs to play hard ball and demand quality prospects in return, someone like James Loney and maybe a pitching prospect, and I know L.A. has said Loney is untouchable, but to get something sould you not have to give up something.

We must stop talking about Izturis as though he is a young Tony Fernandez. Hell, I don't even think he is as good as Chris Woodward. In 1530 career plate appearances, Izturis has walked only 56 times. Even with Woodward having a down year and Izturis having a (fluke BABIP increase induced) career year, they both have created 4.69 runs per 27 outs.

Izturis is reputed to be good defensively, and he may very well be, but I cannot imagine that he could save enough runs with his glove to provide adequate compensation for the sink-hole that he would create in the lineup.

I know that somewhere in my head there is a witty line involving Izturis' first name and some sort of "et tu, Brute" pun wherein Brute is replaced with "brutal". But alas, I have not had enough coffee yet today to craft it as finely as it deserves to be.

As a 21-year-old he hit .290 in AAA, managed .269 in Toronto. A completely empty .290 and .269, but still...

Easy to see why you'd give up on this guy- I think it was the right call at the time, even though the guy we got back did nothing and the guy we were clearing the way for did even less. But it also isn't hard to see someone that young who plays great defense develop enough offense skills to make him worth playing. He even showed some speed in the minors- bad instincts, got caught a lot. Let's not pretend the bar for major league shortstops is that high. With a strong offensive core, Izturis, at his current level, isn't a bad guy to have. The Dodgers weren't that team last year, but Alex Cora (.396/.425), Adrian Beltre (.358/.577) and Paul LoDuca (.356/.431) have hit this season (LoDuca has slowed lately as usual). And they've finally decided Dave Roberts isn't an everyday leftfielder.

I know that somewhere in my head there is a witty line involving Izturis' first name and some sort of "et tu, Brute" pun wherein Brute is replaced with "brutal". But alas, I have not had enough coffee yet today to craft it as finely as it deserves to be.

Cheese, Leigh, lettuce not give up on puns. We need to pepper the board with wordplay until only clever people romaine. I don't mean to be dressing you down, but isn't the question ultimately about the Cesar salary?

As much as I don't want to think it, I think JP has hit panic mode, by rushing Peterson, and Bush up. I hope Bush doesn't go Bonderman, or something.

I agree re:Peterson, but not so much with Bush. In Peterson's case, the pen has too many guys already, and they've just made it more complicated. Didn't really understand why he skipped AAA. Rios was understandable given all the injuries, but I still think it may be too early. Of course, I said that about Jose Reyes last year and he hit .300....

Mick, Clever people boston as well as romaine. Isn't that the problem?

Bush isn't a rush job. He's three years older than Bonderman was when he was promoted and he's pitched half seasons in both AA and AAA. There aren't many questions about his control or mental approach. Given the questions surrounding Hentgen and maybe Towers at the back of the rotation I think it makes sense to see how Bush handles himself and whether they can plan around him in the rotation for 2005. Bonderman on the other hand was 21 or maybe even 20 and hadn't pitched a single inning above A ball.

The Peterson promotion I was a bit surprised by but JP was already talking about Peterson as being a fasttrack possibility way back before spring training even. Guys like Nakamura were getting pounded and Ligtenberg was injured and Adams and Speier were still all over the map. Ideally he would have spent the whole year in AAA pitching multiple relief innings but I can see why the Jays wanted to have a look at him. They're in planning mode for '05 already and want to see what these guys can all do. Frederick should be up some time as well.

Izturis is reputed to be good defensively, and he may very well be, but I cannot imagine that he could save enough runs with his glove to provide adequate compensation for the sink-hole that he would create in the lineup.

Did you see any of the games he played in Toronto? He's one of the best defensive shortstops in baseball.

Robert-
So, say he falls somewhere between pre-'04 and '04 level- would you want him back? He's cheap for now, but if he posts a high BA it'll raise his salary.

Did you see any of the games he played in Toronto? He's one of the best defensive shortstops in baseball.

I don't doubt that, Robert. I was just saying that I didn't have any evidence immediately on hand.

Woodward stinks, Izturis is worth way more then Woodard. Woodward has more of chance slipping through wavers then a younger defensive whiz such as Izturis. With Aaron Hill, and Russ Adams, as defensive liabilitis a guy like Izturis backing them up would be perfect.

Are we sure Hill and Adams are liabilities defensively? i know there was talk of each being moved off position, but they're both still there. And Izturis is a starting SS now. Coming into this year, it looked like he'd be in the Rey Ordonez club- guys who play such great defense that it makes you blind to how much they hurt your offense.

I have no problem with the call-ups, unless it triggers free agency a year earlier (which is potentially the case with Rios).

I know I'm a little late but I don't think this comment has been addressed yet. Rios defintely won't be a free agent a year earlier. He may however be arbitration eligible an extra year (Super 2). But players are still only eligible for free agency after 6 FULL seasons. ie. Frank Catalanotto had 4 arbitration years because he was a super 2.

http://www.baseballgraphs.com/details.html#sharecalc
Woodward stinks, Izturis is worth way more then Woodard.

I respect your analysis, I just don't agree with your conclusion.

Woodward is clearly a better hitter than Izturis - always has been. Conversely, I don't think it would be controversial to declare Izturis the better defender.

So, the question is: does Izturis' defensive advantage make up for, or even eclipse, Woodward's superior offensive production?

In 2003, Woodward accumalted 5.30 defensive win shares per 1000 innings; Izturis 6.97. Over a full season - roughly 1418 innings - that works out to 7.51 defensive win shares for Woodward, 9.88 for Izturis. For more on win shares, and for where I got these numbers, COMN.

Each win share represents 1/3 of a win. And the difference between Izturis and Woodward is 2.37 over a full season (given equal playing time). So: the difference in defence amounts to less than one win over an entire season.

Woodward's superior hitting must be worth at least 1 or 1.5 or more over Izturis'.

Must... end ... italics... now...

Izturis is also significantly younger than Woodward, so there's more room for him to develop. And on the Jays, Woodward's played himself out of the lineup, in part because of his defense.

Mike Young has made me reluctant to write off piddling middle infielders...I thought last year was a fluke for him...

Question; were Peterson and Bush scheduled to go on the Forty-man roster this winter? I hope so.

Yes they would have had to go on the 40 man. It would have been 3 seasons since they were drafted.

I think the most compelling reason to have Bush and Peterson in TO is their ages. Bush is 24 and a half and Peterson is already 25. That means they will be 27/28 when they are arbitration eligible and 30/31 to be free agents. Other than determining that they aren't major league ready there's really no reason to wait, because the Jays have them throughout their primes. If they were 21-22 (so they were 24/25 at arbitration and 27/28 at free agency (see: Ecobar, Kelvim)), I would spend a whole lot more time on the question of whether they are being rushed. Peterson may well need more development time but I think that should be a baseball question and not a - "let's not run his arbitration clock" - decision.

Thanks, Mat.

I would not want him back because we have Adams and Hill.