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Seanbaby is good times though.

Does anyone think that maybe JP doesn't understand the concept of a sunk cost? Saying that there's no room to bring up an outfielder is fine, until you realize that's because you've got Dave Berg and Howie Clark on the team. Releasing one of them costs you virtually nothing. I realize that Berg is signed for the rest of the season, but I think JP has to look at that like a sunk cost.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1088287809910&call_pageid=970599109774&col=Columnist980457773498
In case people missed it in the Sunday shuffle, Griffin's article yesterday about the Expos (COMN) is excellent.

I did not see yesterdays game. How did Peterson look?

Thanks Paul D. I forgot the f in: a href=

RE: Sunk cost. I think J.P. understands the concept of sunk cost better than almost any other executive in baseball. (I don't know that for a fact; it's pure speculation) I personally think he wants Berg on the team.

There's another Expos article, Expos for sale: Team Becomes Pawn of Selig, in the Washington Post.

Releasing one of them costs you virtually nothing

The cost is the cost of the player you bring up as a replacement, which even if it's a minimum wage player is still over $150k for the rest of the season. With so many players on the DL this year there's more players making major league money on the payroll so the Jays are probably in excess of what they planned for originally. I suspect that's part of the reason for keeping Berg around.

I think J.P. understands the concept of sunk cost better than any other executive in baseball

Upon further reflection I think you might be right. He certainly had a good understanding of the idea when he took over the team and started getting rid of Mondesi, Gonzalex, etc. I'm just hard pressed to find any justification for having a team with only 2 outfielders. I think that if Gord Ash went for a significant stretch of the season with only 2 outfielders, and 5 middle infielders on the team many fans would be going nuts. I don't like to see Chris Gomez at first, and I don't want to see Dave Berg getting regular playing time. I can't understand what that brings to the team. Berg isn't going to be here when the team is good, isn't really helping them win now, and doesn't strike me as a Bordick type teacher (although I could be wrong).

As for bringing up Bush, why rush him? Wait till Miller gets off the DL, then send Pat to the bullpen. Let Towers and Miller battle out for next year's 4th starter role.

Was the Hentgen For Closer sign merely a lark, or a sign of things to come? Discuss.

In the spirit of election day and the 'Spos trip to Toronto over this past weekend, let me poll Bauxites on the following:

In light of the struggles of Josh Phelps, the possibility of Delgado's departure and the long wait until Vito-Time, we can agree that firstbase may become a problem position for the Jays over the next couple of seasons. Currently, my favourite Major League baseball player (with apologies to Roy Halladay and Matt Stairs) is a member of Bud Selig's Nomadic Expos; tell me, Bauxites, what you think it would take to get Nick Johnson into a Jays' uniform, and whether or not you feel it would be advisable (based on the asking price that you would project).

Personally, I would trade any member of the Jays' organization other than Vernon Wells or Roy Halladay for Johnson, in a one-for-one deal.

Is David Bush the next Alex Rios?

Which of the 4,982 possible different ways do you want us to interpret that question?

Will he be 6'5, 185, and Latino? No.
Will he be the next guy to get a call up to Toronto? Yes.
Will he play right field? No.
Will he struggle at first but settle in reasonably quickly? Yes.
Will people bust his chops for wearing his sunglasses on his hat? No.
Will he be a regular in Toronto for the next six years? Yes.

Hentgen is one of six Jays with an ERA higher than his lifetime mark, joined by eight hitters with averages lower than their career mark. The team struggled prior to injuries. They're just not very good.

Not to beat old Griff over the head with logic, but that makes no sense. The "lifetime mark" for a baseball player is much more indicative of his ability than his half-season totals... therefore, all these players who are "not very good" are actually better than they've played, and there's reason to believe that they are good, they've just been playing badly. If Griff wants to be logical with his Doom & Gloom, he should point out that Menechino and Zaun are playing well over their established abilities.

Currently, my favourite Major League baseball player (with apologies to Roy Halladay and Matt Stairs) is a member of Bud Selig's Nomadic Expos; tell me, Bauxites, what you think it would take to get Nick Johnson into a Jays' uniform, and whether or not you feel it would be advisable (based on the asking price that you would project).

I think it'd be a bad idea unless you're trying to set a record for most players on the DL in a season. I love Johnson, but I can't see the Jays going for a high-profile player who'll only play about 100 games a year.

They're just not very good.

Right now, it's difficult to argue with that. The makeshift Jays can compete when all goes well, but when their starter has a bad day, as Hentgen did yesterday and Lilly did on Thursday, they do appear overmatched. Of course, Griffin avoids any suggestion that the club will improve with the return of Delgado, Catalanotto and Wells. If you're going to kick a team while it's temporarily down, might as well imply that it's hopeless.

I can't understand what that brings to the team.

Paul, you make it sound like the current lineup is part of some misguided master plan, when it's a last-resort response to a series of injuries at every level of the system. Berg-bashing has become a reflex for some folks, who may not have noticed the guy hitting .308/.345/.385 in June. That's not to say Dave should be a regular big-league LF -- if Gross could throw or Benard wasn't on the DL, they might have tried something different -- but he's filled in admirably for the last month in a dire emergency. Nobody thinks Chris Gomez is an asset at 1B, including him. Everybody wants the big guns back, but until then, this is what we get.

It hasn't been the season many observers expected or Toronto fans wanted, but it still has its charms. Reed Johnson, mysteriously underestimated and unappreciated by many, continues to put on a baseball clinic every day. With a bunt single, a homer, and a wall-climbing grab, Sparky made another huge contribution Saturday. I want to show everything the guy does on the field to my high school players as an instructional video. Jason Frasor is pitching with poise, confidence and that sneaky heater he spots so well. Miguel Batista has been impressive in four of five June starts. Frank Menechino and Gregg Zaun have done far more than expected; without them, things would be much worse. Some people look no further than the standings, then complain and point fingers. They’re missing out, as these underdogs have been a lot of fun to root for.

Addendum: If I'm the Expos, I'd do Johnson for the O-Dog straight up in a heartbeat.

I think it'd be a bad idea unless you're trying to set a record for most players on the DL in a season.

For the past month or so I have been assuming that you and I, Moffatt, would get into some sort of debate on June 28th, but I did not think the topic would be whether or not specific propensity for injury exists.

Actually, I don't expect Bush to have anything like Rios' career path. I expect Bush (and the ball club) to be very good the remainder of this year, but in 2014, we're much more likely to recount Rios' accomplishments and his future than David's. Bush will be 25 in November, and he is a mature 24 by all accounts. Alex has a world of talent, but still has plenty to learn. His struggles to date have been, I think, good for him.

RE: Nick the Stick. Back problems are almost always persistent particularly in larger individuals. A 25 year old 240lber (having been to the last three games, I can say that his listed weight is a joke) with a bad back should set off all kinds of warning flags. It's possible he'll overcome them and be a Delgado caliber player. It's also possible that he'll continue to be plagued by injuries and be out of baseball in three years. He's a huge risk, and given the cost it would take to get him, it's not one I'd want to take.

Coach, I realize that having Berg get significant playing time isn't part of the overall plan. However, it's what's happening now, and I think that the Jays should have had a better back up plan. It's not so much Berg I have a problem with, but the fact that there are only 2 outfielders on the team right now.

Pistol, I realize you have to pay someone to replace Berg. I had assumed that the Jays would easily be able to take on that amount.
And really, you're only paying that amount until Wells and Cat come off the DL, at which point the player you bring up gets sent back down.

I'm not trying to sound negative. I am very happy with JP and the direction the Jays are going. I am disapointed with this year, but not with the overall direction. That said, I think the questions surrounding Berg and Clark are very legitimate.

It hasn't been the season many observers expected or Toronto fans wanted, but it still has its charms. Reed Johnson, mysteriously underestimated and unappreciated by many, continues to put on a baseball clinic every day. With a bunt single, a homer, and a wall-climbing grab, Sparky made another huge contribution Saturday.

Amen. How is it that Sparky gets props on ESPN but virtually nothing here? While we were in Boston, three days of ESPN highlights yielded far more Jays coverage than I expected, and a lot of it was pointed at Reed the way Angels highlights centred around Vlad. Heck, he made #3 on the top ten plays one morning, with the host crying out in a you-must-be-stupid voice "You don't run on Reed Johnson!"

Addendum: If I'm the Expos, I'd do Johnson for the O-Dog straight up in a heartbeat.

Man, I would cry if that happened. Really.

Man, I would cry if that happened. Really.

I would too. Orlando is a delight to watch. Particularly when you consider that he's got an extra pre-free agent year relative to Johnson. Two likely-injury filled years of Nick Johnson vs. three years of Orlando Hudson? To me it's a no-brainer.

Alex has a world of talent, but still has plenty to learn. His struggles to date have been, I think, good for him.

I'd rather Rios find his way right now with the team decimated by injuries and no expectations or pressure being put on him than in the middle of a playoff spot hunt. And he seems to be getting it, which is gratifying -- at least there's something good to be taken out of this.

As to the team not having a good backup plan -- it's hard to prepare for injuries at all levels of your organization at the same time.

To be fair to the vast majority of posters around here who question Johnson, of which I'm one, I think the gist of the concern is that he just doesn't hit enough against right handed pitcher to be a full time corner outfielder.

'04 (very similar to '03)

.286/.342/.416 - full time
.262/.316/.360 - against right handers

I don't think anyone around here (or very few anyway) question his attitude/hustle, baseball smarts or his ability to mash lefties. I think he generally gets compliments around here for all those things. I also started the year questioning his defense because last year I thought some of his routes to balls looked poor, but the reality is that this year he's been an above average outfielder. So he deserves all those kudos. On this team, through all the injuries, he's been their most consitant player. Having said all of that, its not wrong to voice the concern that in a perfect world it would be great to see him sit for 200 AB's a year agains the toughest righties.

On the Nick Johnson question, it would take a sale of the Expos to someone whose new GM values traditional power numbers over OBP and wants to "upgrade" at 1B. If that scenario presents itself, and Delgado chooses to relocate, the Jays would be in the bidding with a few other teams, and I'd be almost as happy as Leigh if they landed the Stick at a reasonable cost, namely prospects. However, if the eventual new Expos regime appreciates what they have, the price will be too high.

Does Blair have any inside information or is this just speculation?

I assume that Jeff has a solid relationship with J.P., based on his consistently fair and informative writing. Calling the Bush promotion "a likely scenario" isn't necessarily based on inside information -- it makes perfect sense, at least until Miller is healthy. You can be sure it was discussed off-the-record, but since there's no quote, my inference is that it wasn't confirmed or denied, because the club probably hasn't decided yet whether Hentgen will start on Friday. There's also the matter of Delgado's possible return to consider before making any other roster moves this week.

the Jays should have had a better back up plan

Yeah, they "should have" anticipated injuries to Wells, Cat and Gross and never traded Werth. Of course, if they still had Jayson, they wouldn't have Jason, and people would be even more upset about the bullpen. You simply can't afford 30 big-league stars on a $50 million budget -- nor can you convince five of them to play in Syracuse -- and no team (even one with quadruple the payroll) can survive so many simultaneous problems without a hitch.

some sort of debate on June 28th

If there's demand for an election thread today, that's OK with me. I received a number of complaints by phone, by e-mail and in person the last time a baseball thread wandered down the political path, so I hope we can keep the Roundup and tonight's game thread on topic.

I assume that Jeff has a solid relationship with J.P., based on his consistently fair and informative writing. Calling the Bush promotion "a likely scenario" isn't necessarily based on inside information -- it makes perfect sense, at least until Miller is healthy.

Upon reflection, I think I worded that really badly. What I meant was whether Mr. Blair was making a well educated guess, or that he might know more than he's letting on. It was intended to be a way to get the Bauxites to talk about baseball and not other things. :)

I think in an ideal situation you don't call Bush up yet, but since this is far from an ideal situation, I could see it happening.

Yeah, they "should have" anticipated injuries to Wells, Cat and Gross and never traded Werth.

Yes. They should have anticipated that they might need a back up outfielder. They've known about Gross for months now. This isn't something they had to plan in February, it's something that they haven't fixed over the last 6 weeks. I don't think anyone expects them to have big league stars. I guess Chad Hermanssen might have been the back up plan, and I'm not sure what happened to him.

As for the election, why not just redirect people to the thread from the night of the debate? That way you don't mess up the front page, and hopefully no one gets upset.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1830706
COMN for the newest Gammons. In it he says that last year the Red Sox made a waiver claim when the Jays were trying to trade Cat to Florida, and that Boston might be interested this year.
He also says that Lilly and Batista are untouchable.

I guess Chad Hermanssen might have been the back up plan, and I'm not sure what happened to him.

I'm 99% sure he's injured.

They had a backup outfielder. Heck, they had backup outfielders. They've had the following:

Wells
Cat
Reed
Hermansen
Bernard
Rios
Gross (possibly)

You can't anticipate five of your top seven outfielders getting hurt, particularly when the only health question mark was Gross.

As for the election, why not just redirect people to the thread from the night of the debate?

We should probably just move it to somewhere else entirely. How about this message board?

We should probably just move it to somewhere else entirely. How about this message board?

Here's an even better idea: Fark.com has started a Canadian election thread here. You have to register, but considering Fark is the greatest non-baseball and non-economics site on the planet, it's worth doing.

All this talk about the Jays lack of organizational depth reminds me of a friend I had a while back. My buddy would always go into a bar and settle on one girl he wanted to talk to. Of course, like any bar, the girl he picked was the same one that every other guy in the bar had singled out. So most often, my buddy would get nowhere. However, he would always choose a backup and make sure he showed her that he was interested. His theory was that this backup not get his full attention and that this would intrigue her. As well, the backup would see him talking to the primary target (his words not mine) and then the backup would be slightly jealous as well. Surprisingly, I witnessed his strategy work a couple of times. However, on many other occasions he would strike out completely with the backup as well. On one occasion, we were drinking heavily and late in the night I saw him going home with a girl who, in my drunken opinion, was questionable. As she left to get her coat from the coat check, I went over to my buddy and asked him if he was sober enough to know what he was doing. He looked at me and said that this girl was his backup's backup.

It's an awkward similitude but injuries have forced the Jays to go to their backup's backup to fill positions. This is to say, the Jays did a reasonably good job stocking Syracuse with backups. However, with the Jays' resources, they couldn't possibly have been expected to have good backups for their backups. So where does this leave the Jays? Let's just say that if JP was in a bar and deciding to play Chris Gomez at first and Dave Berg in left, I'd go to him and ask him for his car keys.

Fark.com has started a Canadian election thread here.

It's too bad there wasn't a way to filter the crap from the intelligent comments. I guess that's bound to happen though when the topic is politics.

Actually it's bound to happen to any fark thread. Personally, I go there to find interesting news stories but I never read what the peanut gallery has to say...or to see their horrible display of photoshop skills.

Fark.com has started a Canadian election thread here.

Wow, thanks. I've just managed to waste way too much of my employers time.
:)

As for the Jays outfield situation, I am less upset than I was this morning. You've done a good job of changing my mind. I'm still not happy about it and think it should be fixed, but I understand why it happened.

Hentgen is one of six Jays with an ERA higher than his lifetime mark, joined by eight hitters with averages lower than their career mark. The team struggled prior to injuries. They're just not very good.

Um, if they're underperforming this year, wouldn't that mean they're actually better than they've played?

I read that comment of Griffin's and just shook my head. Pat Hentgen is 35 and has had arm surgery. There is perfectly good reason to conclude from this season's results that he may be done.

Delgado, Phelps, and Hinske are in a completely different category. Delgado has 4,500 at-bats prior to this season which show that he's a borderline Hall of Famer, and 175 at-bats this season which show him as a lesser player than Scott Hatteberg. He's just turned 32 (belated Happy Birthday, Carlos), and so it's pretty clear which of these pieces of evidence is a more reliable predictor of what he's likely to do once he gets back in the lineup. Phelps doesn't have the record of performance that Carlos has, but his record is pretty darned good and he just turned 26.

"They played poorly prior to the injuries"- sure, that's true. But, "they're just not very good" is a whole other kettle of fish.

Was the Hentgen For Closer sign merely a lark, or a sign of things to come? Discuss.

Wow, you have fun playing in make believe land, you never expect it to come true. I doubt that he would be put right to closer with the Young Guns the Jays have there right now, but i certainly wouldnt object to seeing an experimental bullpen appearance. But alas we dont have any other options to replace him in the rotation right now. Perhaps when Miller comes back.

While in my dentist's office this morning I found the Sports Illustrated from a few months ago with its big baseball preview. Man what a depressing read. The whole thing was hyping how this could be the Jays year with credible pitching being added to the "power house offence". It also had a fantastic article on The Cat with an even better picture. I've never been so tempted to steal a magazine.

I cant belive Boston gives the Jays more props than the station that owns the Jays. Nevermind the Uncanny Reed. I sometimes watch the pacific edition of sportsnet at 3am when i cant sleep and Jays highlights are burried in the middle of the program right after nascar and mariners highlights.

There's another AP story on Justin Miller's tattoos, and I love his comment,

"Just give me the ball every five days,'' he said. ``I pitch with or without sleeves. Naked. Whatever."

Now THAT would be distracting.

Funny you mention Tattoo. He also happed to have an interview in that old SI I read today. More good quotes that went something like "What if a batter is wearing an earing in the box, can't I say I find that annoying? What if a pitcher is really ugly, can't a player say that is annoying?"

With banter like that, its odd he was such a dud in the 590 booth that one game. While Vernon's camera work leaves much to be desired, does anyone think Cat will get back in the booth now that he's on the DL, I thought he was great and not just "great for a player". Hope to hear him again.

Jobu: I bought that mag and I've got it here on my desk.
Some depressing parts of the preview (Sports Illustrated, April 5 2004, Vol. 100, Issue 4):

- Jays ranked as 10th best team in baseball, Seattle 9, San Fran 11. Cubs #1.

- "Who predetermined that the Yankees or the Red Sox would win the American League East and the Red Sox or the Yankees would be the wild card? Whoever it was didn't visit the Blue Jays' spring training camp in Dunedin..."

- Wells: "We don't have to score eight or nine runs to win a game."

It also had a fantastic article on The Cat with an even better picture. I've never been so tempted to steal a magazine.

It is pretty good. "A Model of Efficiency: Cost-effective and statistically solid, the face of the information age is...Frank Catalanotto?" (page 54)

"The secret of Frank Catalanotto's success is a ratty black binder, seven years old. Its hundred-odd loose-leaf pages, alphabetized by pitchers' last names, contain a handwritten record of Catalanotto's 2,201 big league plate appearances and the 8,179 pitches he has seen since he came up with the Tigers seven years ago."

"Besides consulting his logbook, he arrives at the ballpark two or three hours before each game to watch videotape of the opposing pitcher."

Did I mention how much I like the Cat?
"Frankie Cat, when are you coming back?"

Yeah but that picture was great. The way he put on that fake mean face and rested on his bat... classic.

Yes, it is a very nice picture. Mean face? Check. Bat rest? Check. I could scan it in...but those darn old copyright laws prevent me from doing so. :)

Dont worry, the secret will be between me, you and that smashed hat in the corner ;)

Did anyone mention that we're quoting Electioneering from Radiohead's OK Computer yet? I go forward, you go backwards, and somewhere we will meet...