Maybe it has something to do with that strange virus that everyone seems to be getting.

Ah man, I didn't even get around to eating my cuttlefish. In other matters, who knew that Yeats was a baseball fan:


TURNING and turning in the widening dome
The Jays cannot hear the crowd;
Things fall apart; the bullpen cannot hold;
A wild pitch is loosed upon the world,
The benches clear, and everywhere
The double switch is not understood;
The Yankees lack all conviction, while the Devil Rays
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Inning is at hand.
The Second Inning! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image emerges of Cito Gaston
Troubles my sight: somewhere in the left field bletchers
A shape with fat body and the arm of a God,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the words of the Toronto Sun,
Is moving his slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant Boo birds.
The catcher drops again; but now I know
That eleven years of stony play
Were vexed to nightmare by a small payroll,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Baltimore to be born?

In a strange coincidence, I walked away from my computer for two hours with the roundup thread open in a browser window, so here are all the posts up to 11:30ish:

Jays Roundup - Yes, I believe it's time for us to quit
When we meet again
Introduced as friends
Please don't let on that you knew me when
I was hungry and it was your world.
Thanks to David Goodwin for the song suggestion.

1. Tough loss last night for the Jays as they collected all of 3 hits in losing to the Devil Rays 5-1. Details can be found in: Spencer Fordin's "Hentgen can't make the pitch", Bob Matuszak's "Rays scorch; cop 12th straight", Larry Millson's "Depleted Jays fire blanks once again", Mark Zwolinski's "Blue Jay bats come up cold", Mike Ganter's "12 wins and counting: Rays extend streak to dozen", and CP's "Devil Rays win 12 in a row".

2. Fordin Notes on the Adam Peterson callup. This piece of info might be useful to the Cheer Club: "Peterson has the name and number of a verse from the New Testament -- Phillipians 4:13 -- stitched onto the heel of his glove." I couldn't remember what that verse was, but Bible Gateway tells me it's "I can do everything through him who gives me strength." Not sure if that helps you, but it's interesting nonetheless.

3. I'd love to go to tonight's game, but alas, we've got other plans. It should be a good one as the 7-4 rightie Victor Zambrano faces the 6-4 Roy Halladay. It's a 7:05pm EST start at the Dome; Spencer Fordin has the game preview.

4. Today's "Local Reporter Talks to Former Jay" column is brought to you by Mike Ganter in "Former Jays reliever doesn't hold grudge".

5. There's all kinds of great stuff up over at the Hardball Times including three new articles by Aaron Gleeman: "Tale of Two Halves", "My All-Stars" which discusses one of my pet questions "What exactly is an All-Star, anyway?", and News, Notes and Quotes".

News You Can Use: We're having a pre-game Cheer Club/Batter's Box meeting before the Jays game this Sunday. Find out more details here and let us know if you can make it. I no longer have pink hair, if that helps your decision at all.

Daily Diversion: The Game Show Episode Guide Archive

Posted by Mike Moffatt @ 09:13 AM 06/23/2004

Comments: 22

#19781 Posted 06/23/2004 09:23 AM by alsiem:

The Jays play JUST LIKE A WOMAN. They should have more players with gender neutral names like DYLAN.

#19782 Posted 06/23/2004 09:25 AM by Craig B:

No whammy no whammy no whammy no whammy no whammy no whammy....

#19783 Posted 06/23/2004 09:34 AM by MatO:

I think the 2005 pitching staff is taking shape subject to injury.

Starters
Halladay
Battista
Lilly
Miller
Bush

Relievers
Frasor
Chulk
File
Nakamura (ROOGY)
Peterson (RLOOGY - copyright)
Ligtenburg
Lefty/Speier/other

#19784 Posted 06/23/2004 09:41 AM by Geoff:

Ligtenburg, if anyone, is a ROOGY - I hope he gets flipped at the deadline and Speier doesn't, because I believe Speier has another year of being arbitration eligible

#19785 Posted 06/23/2004 09:46 AM by alsiem:

Moffat, hungry for cuttle fish. Cuttlefish, Cuttlefish, Gotta get me some of those Cuttlefish.

Sung to the tune of Kibbles and Bits.

#19786 Posted 06/23/2004 09:48 AM by Ricky Vaughn:

This team is headed in the wrong direction. The people in Toronto don't care about the Jays. How are they going to explain away a last place, losing season to potential ticket buyers? The injuries are not an excuse because they played just as poorly, if not worse, when everyone was healthy.

Despite what the eternal optimists say on this site, the Jays and their franchise will be in serious trouble in the coming years if they don't turn things around.

Promises of good things to come are wearing thin after 2 1/2 years. The offense has completely died and there are no truly bright offensive prospects on their way up. The Jays might have many arms in the minors but very little, if any, bigtime offensive players.

It doesn't look to f---in' good!!

#19787 Posted 06/23/2004 09:51 AM by Ryan01:

JP was on the fan this morning. He basically said Elliot's rumour about the Jays shopping Batista was a load of crap. He did however say that they wouldn't be afraid to make other moves to help the team in both the near and long term though. Read what you want into that.

#19788 Posted 06/23/2004 09:54 AM by Named For Hank:

Promises of good things to come are wearing thin after 2 1/2 years. The offense has completely died and there are no truly bright offensive prospects on their way up.

Right. Fans have decided that all these injuries to our key offensive players are due to mismanagement, and that promises of having a contender in 2005 - 2006 (which is what has always been said) have worn thin because they are not contending now.

Good try, Ricky/Toxic Carlos/Kenneth. But keep using different names so we think there's a consensus or something.

#19789 Posted 06/23/2004 09:59 AM by Christopher:

Went to my third game of the season last night and thanks to Howie, saw my first Jays run. Not a whole lot of positives last night, but Gomez made a couple of nice plays at first.
I think the turning point of the game was Pinella yanking his starter in the first without yielding a run.
Anybody know if Peterson is available for tonight's game?

#197810 Posted 06/23/2004 10:04 AM by Ricky Vaughn:

We'll see what happens in 2005 and 2006 when the Jays are in the same lousy position. What makes you think they'll be in contention by then? What's going to change?

If they are going to continue to give guys like Hinske 5-year contracts and call him a "corner stone" of the franchise, they won't go anywhere.

Sorry, you got the wrong dude. I have no idea who Ricky, Toxic Carlos or Kenneth are. I just stumbled across this site last night as I was looking for a way to vent my frustrations regarding the Jays. I had been posting on ESPN's Jays board but those guys are a bunch of incompetent, roto nerds. I don't even think they are true Jays fans.

#197811 Posted 06/23/2004 10:14 AM by Ryan Day:

If they are going to continue to give guys like Hinske 5-year contracts and call him a "corner stone" of the franchise, they won't go anywhere.

Okay, so the Hinske deal isn't looking so hot. But he doesn't start making serious money until next year, so it's too early to call it a bust.

And even if it does turn out poorly, signing Vernon Wells to effectively the same deal looks like a stroke of genius. So at the very worst, J.P. is batting .500 on his long-term contracts. (Probably better given the deals to Halladay, Batista & Lily)

#197812 Posted 06/23/2004 10:18 AM by alsiem:

Well, as a voice of moderation, I don't think the Jays are contenders anytime soon. 2005, 2006 it doesn't matter. However, they are a solid franchise and should continue to flirt around the .500 mark and could still do it this year if they have an injury free second half. Tragic I know but when the Yanks screw up, they go out and get A-Rod. Meanwhile, we're cursing the $2 million Lightenberg's got coming to him next year. Unfortunately, the casual fan doesn't understand that perenial contenders like the White Sox, contend in a weak division and actually may only be 1 or two games better than the Jays (not this year I know). Either you're a fan of baseball and will accept that the Jays are trying to do what they can, or you want a night out cheering for a winner. In which case, maybe the Argos will see some business later in the year.

#197813 Posted 06/23/2004 10:35 AM by dp:

Ryan D-

I'll give the Hinske deal some more time before I call it a bust, but if it does turn out to be, then you can't excuse it by referring to the Vernon Wells deal. It was a mistake in talent evaluation, and one that is potentially very costly to the club. When he starts making real money, you're going to have to say "what production could we have bought with the cash we're wasting on a weak-hitting corner infielder?" and evaluate the deal on that ground. Hopefully, Hinske will settle in as a .360/.450 guy and keep playing solid defense, but if he doesn't, then the deal is going to be handcuffing the club because they won't be able to win with him in the lineup, and won't be able to afford a replacement.

Too early to tell on Bautista and Lily as well. Getting Halladay locked in was awesome- especially given TNSTAAPP, a real #1 starter is the toughest thing in baseball to secure, and JP has one for years to come. BPro wrote about the Ash Jays that they had great front-line talent, but never got good at getting the secondary pieces needed to make a champion. Lily and Bautista look like those pieces (if McGowan hadn't gone down, things would look a lot brighter- losing both McGowan and Rosario seems like unusually bad luck, but whatever). Halladay and Wells basically fell into JP's lap from Ash, compensation for walking into a situation with so many bad contracts.

#197814 Posted 06/23/2004 10:42 AM by Ryan Day:

I'm not really saying the Wells deal "excuses" the Hinske deal, but rather trying to point out that nobody's going to get talent evaluation 100% right all the time. I think you just have to hope that the home runs outweigh the strikeouts.

Either way, it's nice change from Ash, who tried to sign anybody with a pulse to a 3 or 4 year deal.

#197815 Posted 06/23/2004 10:47 AM by Moffatt:

Sorry about the delay, alsiem. I was working on something else. Here is your 100M points and picture of cuttlefish:

#197816 Posted 06/23/2004 10:56 AM by alsiem:

Thank you,

I'll have to save it for afternoon snack. Looks meaty.

#197817 Posted 06/23/2004 11:03 AM by Jacko:

Too early to tell on Bautista and Lily as well. Getting Halladay locked in was awesome- especially given TNSTAAPP, a real #1 starter is the toughest thing in baseball to secure, and JP has one for years to come. BPro wrote about the Ash Jays that they had great front-line talent, but never got good at getting the secondary pieces needed to make a champion. Lily and Bautista look like those pieces (if McGowan hadn't gone down, things would look a lot brighter- losing both McGowan and Rosario seems like unusually bad luck, but whatever). Halladay and Wells basically fell into JP's lap from Ash, compensation for walking into a situation with so many bad contracts.

Batista has been quite surprising to me.

(a) he throws _way_ harder than I realized. when escobar walked, and the Jays signed miguel, there was all sorts of talk about how batitsa had less "stuff" than escobar. I now believe that to be patently false. He can get his fastball over 95 MPH, and throws some vicious breaking stuff. How is that any different to Escobar?

(b) batista is a bit of a stubborn head case and might be too smart for his own good. insisting on throwing 8 pitches all the time instead of learning to control 3 or 4 seems to be holding him back.

Even factoring in (b) Batista might be the best free agent signing this year. I can't understand why he didn't get offered the same kind of money as Escobar.

#197818 Posted 06/23/2004 11:09 AM by Named For Hank:

Okay, so the Hinske deal isn't looking so hot. But he doesn't start making serious money until next year, so it's too early to call it a bust.

Isn't he? His defence has improved astronomically this year, and his hitting seems to have come around in the last month.

Ricky, what do I see changing? I see us not beset by injuries that leave us without our entire power core. I see the young guys figuring it out. Have a look at Rios -- slow start, but again, how's he been doing lately?

Take the long view, it'll save your stomach.

Would I be happier if the team was in contention right now? Yes. Would I be happier if Cat, Delgado and Vernon were not on the shelf? Yes. Am I predicting the demise of the team because I'm not happy right now? Nope.

Sorry to confuse you with Kenneth/Toxic Carlos/the rest of his aliases. His MO is to post unsubstantiated sky-is-falling and then run when called out on any of his "facts". However, you should know who Ricky is, because he's you. ;)

#197819 Posted 06/23/2004 11:14 AM by Daryn:

COMN for article from WebMD

I think I have found our problem... Apparently the entire Blue Jays fan base and media needs counselling for Depression.

What is depression?

Depression is a mood disorder that causes symptoms such as low energy, prolonged sadness or irritability, and lack of interest in daily activities. It can be triggered by a chemical imbalance or stressful, emotional situations. Depression is a medical condition, not a character flaw or weakness. Many people with depression do not seek treatment because they are embarrassed or think they will get over it on their own. If you feel you have depression or have been diagnosed with depression, there are many successful treatments available to help you. You do not have to live with depression.

#197820 Posted 06/23/2004 11:19 AM by Ricky Vaughn:

However, you should know who Ricky is, because he's you. ;)

Duh, my bad :) .

Am I predicting the demise of the team because I'm not happy right now? Nope.

It's not as much the performance of the team that concerns me regarding their future but the lack of interest the city has shown in the team. They get very little coverage by the media, attendance has dropped at an alarming rate and TV ratings are falling. The Jays have to win to attract the fans, but I'm not 100% sure that people will come to SkyDome like they used to even if they are winning. That's what really concerns me about the future of the franchise.

#197821 Posted 06/23/2004 11:19 AM by Ryan01:

With Hinske a lot of people seem to have forgotten that it takes a full year to get back to full strength after a broken hamate bone. It was only this time last year that Hinske returned to action and he's certainly had a solid June thus far.

#197822 Posted 06/23/2004 11:27 AM by dp:

His defence has improved astronomically this year, and his hitting seems to have come around in the last month.

Well, I guess the deal's a success then. Seriously, even with this good "last month" his numbers still suck- he hasn't cracked a .700 OPS yet. When I cited 2 months of Bobby Kielty sucking before coming to the Jays as cause for concern last July, everyone jumped all over me for it, but now, people are saying Hinske's a good player and worth a pretty hefty contract because of 60 good PAs in June. The one thing that encourages me about him is that even when he's slumped, he's drawn a few walks. But he was truly horrible for a good stretch, so bad that it'll take more than a 3 week hot streak to make him look like someone you'd want to pencil in automatically next year. .270 OB% in May. .314 SLG.

It's not as much the performance of the team that concerns me regarding their future but the lack of interest the city has shown in the team. They get very little coverage by the media, attendance has dropped at an alarming rate and TV ratings are falling.

I can understand that. But Toronto is a fickle town unless you're the Leafs. When the Jays turn it around, the fans will be back on board. I don't know what we can do about the media (I'd say it's not that they don't get coverage but that all of the coverage is negative).

But he was truly horrible for a good stretch, so bad that it'll take more than a 3 week hot streak to make him look like someone you'd want to pencil in automatically next year.

But was that stretch long enough to write him off for good or to make his signing look bad five years down the road?

http://www.bluejayway.ca
Carlos Tosca has been selected by Joe Torre to be part of his all star game coaching staff.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1087987247431&call_pageid=968867503640&col=970081593064
Unfortunately, he's keeping coming with Jimy Williams, who was also named an All-Star coach.

I have to say I agree with the fickleness argument. Just look at the Calgary Flames and how many Toronotonians jumped on that bandwagon, and they aren't even a Toronto team. However to really regain the fanbase I think that a playoff berth is necessary,. Nothing says legitimate like the playoffs. Not only for that year, but in following years, once hope is restored.

I'll admit in the past it hasn't worked for the Argos, but I believe that is related to the perception that the CFL is more of a minor league, a position I myself am against.

Unfortunately, the playoffs are so difficult to make under the current rules, so we are just gonna have to keep our fingers crossed.

Joe Torre is either a madman or a comedic genius. I don't know which is worse. (Not that All-Star Coach probably means a heck of a lot...)

But was that stretch long enough to write him off for good or to make his signing look bad five years down the road?

Absolutely not. What I said was:

I'll give the Hinske deal some more time before I call it a bust,

If Hinske hits like he has the last three weeks, it looks great. If he hits like he did the first 2 months and in 2003, it looks bad. I'm not expecting .400/.500 with any regularity, but the middle ground would be nice.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/news/040622bautista.html
As for the comment that Hinske's long term deal was not good an will saddle the team with debt in the future - remember that some team will always take off our hands.

Things could be worse. See Baltimore. They are in a dead heat with Toronto for last after signing a bunch of high priced free agents. Now they go and trade their 5th best prospect for a middle reliever (COMN). Wow, that will put them into first place.

Carlos Tosca has been selected by Joe Torre to be part of his all star game coaching staff

Kudos to Tosca; it's nice to see the manager with the second-lowest profile in the majors getting some recognition.

Or is this a desperate attempt from the fraternity of managers to keep Tosca in his job until at least the all star break has past? :)

remember that some team will always take off our hands.

You sure?

Eric Hinske 3B TOR Signed Mar 2003 - 5 years/$14.75M
2003: $0.5M (+$0.5M signing bonus)
2004: $0.8M
2005: $3.0M
2006: $4.325M
2007: $5.625M

Well, I guess the deal's a success then. Seriously, even with this good "last month" his numbers still suck- he hasn't cracked a .700 OPS yet. When I cited 2 months of Bobby Kielty sucking before coming to the Jays as cause for concern last July, everyone jumped all over me for it, but now, people are saying Hinske's a good player and worth a pretty hefty contract because of 60 good PAs in June. The one thing that encourages me about him is that even when he's slumped, he's drawn a few walks. But he was truly horrible for a good stretch, so bad that it'll take more than a 3 week hot streak to make him look like someone you'd want to pencil in automatically next year. .270 OB% in May. .314 SLG.

The alternatives to "pencil in automatically" are:

1. trade him away for nothing and eat salary
2. sit his expensive ass on the bench and trade for or sign someone superior

I have no problem with people bitching about the current lineup, but some suggested alternatives would be nice. What do you propose the Jays do insted of starting Hinske at 3B next year? Be sure to include the trade and/or financial costs of your solution.

Example: After last night's performance, I'm beginning to wonder if the Jays should bring up Glenn Williams to platoon with Hinske against tough lefthanders. No idea if Williams' platoon splits support this (he's a switch hitter with power and no patience).

BTW, in this new "Hinske and Phelps suck" paradigm, I'd be ecstatic to see either of them post a 250/350/450 line. 400/500 is just plain dreaming...

Don't know if The Cabal is working on this, but the Tom Cheek thread is no longer at the top of the homepage. Just thought I'd point it out. :)

Mr. Burley, are you referring to Ned Yost when you suggest Tosca has the second lowest profile?

Any sort of Cheer Club presence tonight?

Jacko-

Depends on which Hinske is for real. If he hits like he did April/May, upgrading should be easy- Ty Wiggington will be available, and as much as he sucks, he has outhit Hinske in '04. Hill will be closer to being ready. The spot they don't want to be in is having to play him because of his contract- if he's playing solid defense, that's not as bad, but if his defense regresses, then you're paying to field a liability.

Again, I'm not saying they should be impatient, or saying the contract was the wrong move, just that it has the potential to cost the club- a team as cash-strapped as the Jays can't afford an inept third baseman at $4 million- this is precisely why JP was praised for letting Cruz Jr and Shannon Stewart walk, even though both are fine players.

And the .400/.500 thing is in reference to Hinske's June- .397/.474. .350/.450 from those guys would give us an extra 5 wins.

Thomas, Dave Miley has such a low profile that people even forget him when they're trying to think of managers with low profiles. :)

Depends on which Hinske is for real. If he hits like he did April/May, upgrading should be easy- Ty Wiggington will be available, and as much as he sucks, he has outhit Hinske in '04. Hill will be closer to being ready. The spot they don't want to be in is having to play him because of his contract- if he's playing solid defense, that's not as bad, but if his defense regresses, then you're paying to field a liability

I think I understand what you're getting at dp. People have been quick to praise JP for getting Hinske and Wells signed to long term deals. The problem is, they have put on rose-tinted glasses since the signings, and refuse to address the possibility that the trigger was pulled on the Hinske contract extension too early. Insert obvious comments about 20/20 hindsight, etc. Thankfully, some caution was used when deciding about long-term guaranteed money for Josh Phelps.

Regarding Wiggington -- do you think the Mets are willing to let him go for a low price? If the cost in players is too high, then I think the Jays are better off sticking with Hinske and hope he adjusts. However, if the Mets (who have a Scott Rolen clone named David Wright banging on the door at AAA) would be willing to part with Wigginton in return for Speier or Adams, it might be worth doing.

Rob, we decided to move the Tom Cheek thread back down to its normal position -- there was a small chance it was interfering with the creation of new threads, and more practically, it hadn't received any new posts for a couple of days, so it seemed like the time to restore it to its normal spot. We may well re-post it at the top of the page in future, though, if circumstances dictate.

If the answer is Ty Wigginton, then I dread hearing the question.

Wigginton may be out-VORPing Hinske 8.3 to 1.9, but I'm more than happy to have him be someone else's problem. Surely if it ever came to scraping the barrel to replace Hinske, for whatever reason, the Jays could do a better judge than Wigginton.

Well, Duke has inherited Steve Phillips's love for middle relievers, and they just "lost" Dave Weathers :>

I don't think the Mets ever saw Wig as more than a stopgap, and given how quickly Wright has come on, that's more true now. He can play 2B, but not very well, so he's not an ideal backup, plus might not have the best attitude on the bench after being a regular for 2 years.

Again, not the ideal solution, but with the top propsects coming up now, 3B won't be the sinkhole it has been. Some mediocre regulars could become available (Boston got Mueller for practically nothing last year) for not very much just because supply will have increased.

Thomas, I'll be there after 8:30. Alex has the new Halladay Ks (and the assortment of new reliever Ks), and he'll be there for sure. Dunno who else is coming.

I'll be at tonights game as well. Really looking forward to getting back into Cheer Club action, the previous week has been quite dull. I've got 4 or 5 scrubs if anyone wants to wear them I'll bring them (for Doc's start). Just let me know ASAP. One for me, one for my loser friend, and the other 2 or 3 can go to whomever asks before I leave for the game. Although I dont know if anyone will know what we're doing without proper signage, but i guess its worth a shot.

See you at the game and remember.... it could be worse. They could be the O's.

There's an interesting piece on Page A18 of today's Toronto Globe & Mail, comparing experiences at the ballpark, 'then' and now. It pretty accurately describes why, after 15 years at the Ex and at the Dome, I let my season's ticket subscription expire. (If I knew how to link to it, I would. Sorry)

Jobu, if it's not too much trouble I'd say bring them anyway, I could wear one I'm sure and I'll bet we find some others.

http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?ID=4279
Here are Hinske's historical stats (COMN). Is this year the usual or is it unusual? In the absence of a reason for his problems this year (like perhaps Phelps) I would be concerned too. However he was injured. He admitted recently that he developed a flaw in his swing as a result. He fixed it at the beginning of June and has taken off depite no protection in the lineup at all.

The knock was always defence. He fixes that and is the best defensive 3B in the American League right now. If you don't believe this will continue, then why do believe his subpar hitting will?

I would be concerned as well if he was a loafer or a head case but the guy works really hard and tries really hard. He appears to have the right attitude. If I am a General manager I look to build a team of those types of guys.

A few years of .280 20HR 80 RBI with excellent defense and a few SB is still within reach. He has done each of these before. Now he just has to put them together in the same year.

Sorry Thomas, didnt see your post by the time i left for the dome so i thought no one was interested. The point is he's got a CLOSET FULL and we can use them next doc start if i ask nicely enough. His dad actually uses them for work.