The radio broadcast is coming through on the Internet. Shhhh! Don't tell anyone.

.... but with a big delay

FAULDS - "(Berroa, Matsui, Baldelli)...that's a good treesome..."

Which is what happens when you can't decide whether to say "trio" or "thressome."

Well, no runs. That's something. Doc's throwing pretty hard, too.

And Mighty Mouse is about to make it 1-0.

Poor double play call, but Zambrano is all over the place and I don't know if I'm swinging after pitches at someone's head, at an elbow, and one in the dirt.

or how about Pat Tabler's 'tree-mendous'.

So, is it the bottom of the second when we might hear 'watercraft'?

These baseball rumours are crazy. I was reading USA Today's Sports Weekly and they mentioned Batista as available for a trade to Houston along with Freddie Garcia.

Whatever happened to Rod Beaton?

I was reading USA Today's Sports Weekly

AAAAAHHHH! Make it go away! Sorry, I just don't like it as much since they threw football in there. Should have known it was going to suck...the old Baseball Weekly cost the same as "Baseball+Football" Weekly do now.

Good fantasy pullout, though.

"Groundball Hit" Halladay has looked very good tonight, but it's time to score some runs.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-bluejays-rockiestrade&prov=ap&type=lgns
Hmmm, haven't seen this mentioned on this site yet:

Blue Jays acquire outfielder Anthony Sanders from Colorado (COMN)

Is this our backup OF?

Rotoworld writes about Sanders.."Blue Jays acquired outfielder Anthony Sanders from the Rockies for a player to be named and assigned him to Triple-A Syracuse.
The Blue Jays needed some extra minor league depth because of their injuries. Sanders, 30, hit .316 with four homers and 12 RBI in 24 games for Triple-A Colorado Springs. "

Is it just me, or do a lot of managers in baseball like mediocre or crappy 30+ "scrappy" white guys. When I look at guys who are playing ahead of guys they shouldn't be, this is the kind of player that keeps coming up. The Jays are now full of them. Tonight's lineup includes Menenchino, Clark, Johnson, Zaun, Gomez, and Berg. This is why I hate Tosca. Cash and Phelps might not help the Jays in the future, but they have a chance. None of the above-mentioned players should be part of the Jays future. (Johnson could stick around as a 4th OFer).

I don't think Sanders qualifies as a scrappy white guy.

Wooo, Piniella gives us one out, and Doc gets us the next two.

Now let's get some runs on the board.

OK, is there anyone in this lineup capable of hitting major league pitching? This really is absurd. I know these guys are backups but they should still be able to do something with their bats, or they shouldn't be playing at this level.

I Think Rios Is Finally Turning The Corner, He's Got His Average Up To .253 Plus I Was Very Impressed With His Last At Bat.. Went Down 0-2 In The Count, Fouled Off A Nice Pitch By Zambrano But Stayed Patient Enough To Take The Next 4 Pitches. Good Job Even Though Berg Messed It Up... Please Say That Help Is On Its Way...

Sanders To Syracuse.. Could We Soon See The Start Of The Stubby Clapp Era?!...... You Know Your Team Is Going To Hell If You're Looking Forward To A 30 Year Old Man Named Stubby Being Called Up To Help Your Lineup...

It almost seems that the jays start games with only 13 outs. There are usually three high AAA level players in the lineup every night too. That explains alot too.

What a difference a year makes. Remember last year, when the Jays were run scoring machines? Nobody could keep them down. Now for almost half a season, they can't buy a run. They haven't been very enjoyable to watch this year.

Gee, I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that almost everyone on the roster has been injured at least once.

Seriously, what do you expect when the first 4 hitters are Menechino, Clark, Johnson, Hinske?

Well they finally get another hit in the 6th inning but Hinske gets caught stealing. You have to give Zaun a chance to hit. He's the only one who has hit the ball hard into fair territory off Zambrano.

Tonight is the best I've seen Hinske throw the ball from third base on turf. Now they just have to attempt to get one run off the vaunted D-Rays staff.

Terrific job by Doc. His stuff was so lively that it took him most of the first inning to harness it.

It's too bad the lineup features four guys who started the season in the minors and two guys who started the season on the bench. And are showing us all why...

At this rate, poor Carlos is going to see little if any pitches when he comes back late next week. Why even pitch to him? The bats are asleep.

..And Rios Goes 2 For 2 And Gets His First Major League Stolen Base!

I'm getting the feeling this is the chance. Gotta cash in here.

I dont think anyone can be mad at hinske for trying to get to second base. he probably didnt want to waste a single by zaun :) its not like the jays are putting more than 2 hits together.

Bah, if only Berg could have done what Menechino did, we'd be in position for a sac fly. Instead, Howie is gonna have to get a hit here.

When Berg was with the Marlins, I don't remember him being so inept. He is an absolute "oxygen thief" in a jays uniform this year.

I LOVE THIS KID!!!

I don't think Rios was safe on that play! His foot popped up and he was tagged before he brought it down. The Jays could use some breaks though and they tie the game.

?

Now thats the way to score a run, Whitey "The Rat" Herzog style.

Rios' front leg was in the air, but his back leg was on the plate before the tag.

Although ideally you don't want to RELY on the opposing pitcher throwing wild pitches to drive your runs in.

I think he was safe.

But if he wasn't, then it just makes up for that brutal DP call where hinske beat throw by about a full second but was called out

Hey, lay off Berg. I'm extremely grateful that he didn't line out into a double play there.

Go sit on the bench you thief!

I am pretty sure he was safe. Heads up baserunning. Clark didn't start motioning him home until Rios was halfway down the line. THe Jays look like a AAA team. Not a AA team which would be filled with guys with promise, but a team with a bunch of guys who shouldn't be in the majors. Can't hit, can't run, can't field, what do you do?

dang

"dang"
enlighten those of us that arent watching the game please!!

Hudson walked, and Gomez lined one into the corner. Crawford got the ball in very quickly and O-Dog had to stop at third. Rios then grounded out to end the inning.

Berg/Menechino/Clark

it will be a miracle if they score a run.

I'm not watching either.

SPORTSLINE

I have a feeling Berg is going to end it.

You never know. Menechino and Clark represent the power section of this lineup. :)

Might we see cat or woody ph?

Why use a .280 hitter as PR?

I guess there's no other fresh legs on the bench, a shame to wast Woody's bat though.

nice

Is Josh Phelps keeping Trever Miller out of the game?

I hope they don't bunt

Why?

I wouldn't trust these guys to execute.
3 cracks at a single to win (assuming no DP)

4th outfielder indeed...

Walkoff Victory! Coach's Birthday Best!
Happy Birthday btw

Jays Win A Game! Reed Johnson Finally Does Something!

Good game---Jays can win their second series in a row behind Lilly tomorrow.

And the Coach streak continues......

Happy Birthday Kent.

Of course, if it works, it's a good play :-)

Had 'em all the way.

Happy Birthday Kent!

Frasor is magic! So is Coach's birthday!

So are Wednesdays with JP according to Wilner...

Can we arrange for Coach to have a few more birthdays this year ?

Happy Birthday Kent!

So its apparently decided who represents the Jays in the allstar break. Its CT in a cake walk.

Happy B Day Kent.

"He is in the plans for *this* year..." JP on Josh Phelps
He also said that he wants Kevin Frederick (Kevin Frederick?) in the Bigs sometimes this year.

Wow.
JP just said that he doens't know why people are getting injured so much, but it might be supplements or steroids.

They sure gutted that one out! Doc's outing goes without saying. Zambrano wasn't too shabby. We all know that TB's streak was strung together with a healthy portion of luck, but they sure as hell are on the rise. Live arms (aside from Lurch), young legs, and above-average mitts sure are nice luxuries. Clutching hit by everyone's favourite 4th OF. The shattering sure seemed symbolic.

Don't forget, the rally was started by Dave Berg's thundering line-drive to left.

got a couple more "sure's" left if anyone needs one.

Sure.

Someone just called in end busted Wilner for saying that Hinske is the best DF third baseman in the AL and is using range factor.
Is that someone here?

Somebody doesn't like Hinske's defense ...

Jim Thome: 24 HR
Today's Jays starting line-up: 28 HR

Did JP say anything else besides the vague Phelps is in our plans?

How about some outfield help?

If he wants to see Frederick as well as Peterson, File, and Frasor, what does he plan to do with the rest of his more expensive bullpen?

Oh yeah, and the 'Rx's looked great.

A few hours late since I was at the game but:

EVERYONE'S FAVOURITE EVERYDAY STARTING CORNER OUTFIELDER, MR. CLUTCH, COMES THROUGH AND THE JAYS WIN!!

That guy who called into the fan about Hinske was as dim and hard headed as a Yankees fan. He brought up "zone" ratings and both Wilner and JP countered with "leading in fielding percentage" but it just wouldnt stick with that guy. He was determined to make Hinske look bad and failed miserably.

Rx's made the TV eh? Awesome.

"He is in the plans for *this* year..." JP on Josh Phelps

Dang, I missed JP on the Fan. Did he elaborate any on this? I suppose sitting on a bench behind Berg, Clark and Gomez is a plan of sorts...

Can't believe I missed him on the radio. I'd been looking forward to his comments ever since last week when he was unable to go on the show.

I heard him talk about Phelps, but I dont remember much for some reason. Basicaly he was saying that there's something up with his swing and/or mechanics and he's stuggling and until he figures that out there's no point in sending him out there to fail and feel worse about himself.

I would think sending him out there would fix his slump, but thats why he's the GM and I'm not.

I would easly call Hinske the most improved defensive 3rd baseman in the AL. He's just leaps and bounds ahead of where he was last year and in his rookie season. But I don't think for a second he's best in the AL. I'd put A-Rod, Chavez and maybe even Blalock ahead of him.

No one thinks he's the best really, but the caller seemed DETERMINED to bury Hinske, saying he's 25th best defensivly in the AL and such like that and that he "always" misses balls and costs the team runs.

4th outfielder my arse!!!!!

That guy who called into the fan about Hinske was as dim and hard headed as a Yankees fan. He brought up "zone" ratings and both Wilner and JP countered with "leading in fielding percentage" but it just wouldnt stick with that guy. He was determined to make Hinske look bad and failed miserably.

I haven't seen any numbers myself.

However, I give the caller's arguments a lot more weight than I do the things Wilner and Ricciardi were saying. Yes, Hinske's fielding percentage is good, and yes, he's made some nice plays recently. But if more exotic methods of defensive evaluation aren't given a fair shake here on this site, then where?

Having said that. It's obvious that Hinske's coping with the position a lot better than he was before, and I'm delighted to see it. That, combined with his resurrected hitting, is enough to make him a pretty good player. As long as he's a good enough third baseman that you can get his bat in there at third instead of at first, and as long as his bat is somewhere in the vicinity of where it was in '02, he's an asset to the lineup. Anything above that - and he may be capable of more - is chrome.

He probably read the passage in moneyball where it is said that 'fielding pct lies' and took it way way way too literally... Then he became a knowitall statshead who's probably never opened a stats text book in his life and decided to share his ignorant views with the world... my analysis...

Jim Thome: 24 HR
Today's Jays starting line-up: 28 HR

Jim Thome: $12.2M
Today's Jays starting line-up: $4.865M
(using $300K for Zaun and Clark... ESPN doesn't have their salary on their player page)

Did anyone hear JP talking about the promising future? I know he mentioned Hudson and Hinske and Wells, Quiroz and Rios, Halladay, Lilly and Batista... I didn't hear him say Phelps' name, though I was only half-listening, so perhaps he actually did.

If he didn't (can anyone confirm?), I think that would say a lot more about where Phelps fits into the plans than any response to a direct question about Phelps would...

I could see JP forgetting a guy like Miller, who hasn't been around lately, but he'd been asked a question about Phelps minutes earlier. Or, maybe it'd just be reading too much into things...

Zone Rating is a better indicator of defensive skill than fielding percentage (for a third baseman). But I've been told that turf and other factors can have a significant effect on zone rating. One thing I know: Hinske is much better defensively now than he was last year (and that's good enough for me). Now if he can start hitting that would be much appreciated.

In case I was misunderstood earlier, I wasnt saying one defensive rating is better than the other, I was just trying to illustrate that the guy seemingly hated Hinske and found one bad stat and drove it into the ground trying to convince JP and Wilner that Hinske is the 25th worst defensive 3rd baseman in the AL alone and has no place on the team.

I think it's hyperbole to suggest that Hinske is anywhere near the best thirdbaseman in the AL. But in the last month or so he's become so much better that I can comfortably call him a capable major league thirdbaseman and that's quite a compliment considering where I thought he was before which is a guy with a future at first. And I'm not talking about fielding % though it's certainly nice that he hasn't booted many balls. It's more with his quickness and crispness in getting away throws and getting them to first and second online and strong.

I'm also not terribly concerned with his zone rating and other rate metrics which take into account his earlier struggles and are subject to sample size. That's like saying Hinske's only a .243 hitter which I also doubt he is. Let's see where his defensive numbers sit at the end of the year.

The caller wasn't trying to convince JP and Wilner that Hinske was horrible. Wilner had said something earlier in the night to the effect that Hinske was the best defensive 3B in the AL and the caller was trying to point out the counterargument. The caller may have not presented his argument very eloquently but his argument has merit.

Two arguments were put forth:
Wilner - Hinske is the best 3B in the AL (based on F%)
Caller - Hinske is the 3rd worst 3B in the majors behind Morgan Ensberg and Melvin Mora (based on ZR)

The truth is somewhere is in between the two but it's closer to the caller's argument than to Wilner's argument.

What I was really disappointed in was Wilner's response to the caller. To paraphrase, he stated "well I don't know how accurate those stats are but I believe what I see and Hinske has been very good this year. JP just kept quiet while Mike Wilner shot down an objective argument with his subjective opinion.

The caller did frequently bring up the phrase "25th worst" several times though. That I am sure of.

If Hinske is the 25th worst - he must be pretty good!

I thought Wilner's brief rebuttal at the end was funny as heck though

Wilner: "So you have a stat that determines what pct of balls Hinske has gotten to that someone says the average MLB 3rd baseman should be able to get to. Who decides that anyway?"

Caller: "Well, uh, uhm.....you see he's the 25th worst and uhm...."

LOL

But I agree somewhat with Wilner in that those stats are suspect and they can be quite up and down each year. As much as ERA can be for a pitcher or batting average for a hitter. Because a fielder can't control how many balls are hit his way, how hard they are hit, or what kind of surface he plays on. The Jays as you know are maybe the only turf team left in the AL if not the majors. So their infield defence is tested much more than most teams.

I think Hinske was one of the worst fielders in the majors early in the year but he's come a long way since then. And I think observation and subjective opinion are VERY important to evaluating defence (the whole reason behind TangoTiger's fan scouting report study). The numbers are good as a sanity check but sometimes the numbers need sanity checking themselves.

Hinske's one major weakness was/is throwing the ball. If the addresses that all of his other stats will start looking better. And tonight he threw the ball very well.

There are definitely problems with Zone Rating. MGL's UZR is preferable, but I don't think we'll be seeing numbers from him for 2004. If we do it won't be until December or January.

But really, I watch Hinske play almost everyday, and it's apparent (to me at least) that he's no longer close to being the worst defensive third baseman out there.

It seems to be the caller broke the golden rule of sabrmetrics (if I may be so bold as to claim the following as the golden rule): Never use stats as a club to try to beat someone over the head; strive always to use them as a way to enlighten oneself and others.

But really, I watch Hinske play almost everyday, and it's apparent (to me at least) that he's no longer close to being the worst defensive third baseman out there.

Wilner made this same point in his discussion with the caller. The caller replied with "but you don't get to see every other 3B play every day, do you?" Wilner shrugged it off but I scored one point for the caller in that exchange.

Robert, you may be right about not using stats to club others over the head. If someone uses one stat to take an extreme position, don't be surprised when others argue the opposite extreme. To be fair though, Wilner's initial comment about Hinske being the best in the AL is what spurred the caller to make his point. I suppose if the caller had stated that Hinske is a mediocre 3B instead of suggesting that Hinske is close to the worst, Wilner wouldn't have been so defensive.

"but you don't get to see every other 3B play every day, do you?"

well neither does that guy right? ;)

No, but that's why one uses objective measures to help inform one's opiniona--just like the caller was doing.

I dont know if thats what that particular caller was doing, constantly clubbing Wilner over the head with "He's the 25th worst zone rating in the AL". But the caller was right in that Hinske's not the BEST defensive 3rd baseman in the AL.

Whoa our current starting lineup must be the cheapest in the league by far. If only we had insurance on all the other guys.

Wilner made this same point in his discussion with the caller. The caller replied with "but you don't get to see every other 3B play every day, do you?" Wilner shrugged it off but I scored one point for the caller in that exchange.

Well, Wilner sees another 3B every day, and I would guess he sees more baseball than the caller. Remember that the Jays are not the only team on the field in their games.

G.T., $300K is the correct salary for Zaun and for Rios unless I am very much mistaken.

Alex Rios watch : .371/.421/.514 since sitting on June 11.

Wilner made this same point in his discussion with the caller. The caller replied with "but you don't get to see every other 3B play every day, do you?" Wilner shrugged it off but I scored one point for the caller in that exchange.

True, but he can observe that Hinske has made progress from this year over last year.

Pistol, I think anybody can see that Hinske's progressed. But there are a lot of people out there who just don't like the guy and will try to justify their dislike regardless of what he does on the field. It's epidemic in Canada, where we seem to crave failure.

I'm really stoked that Rios is starting to hit.

I didn't see the game, but thanks to Doc, Sparky and the rest of the Jays for an excellent present. In a remarkable coincidence, everyone else gave me baseball books -- go figure.

I'm also very grateful to everyone for their kind wishes here and in the thread Craig shouldn't have started. For the record, despite all the old age jokes flooding my Inbox, I'm only 33 (Hex).

When they have pre-election polls they don't ask every voter their opinion. Nevertheless, the polls are accurate within a certain margin.

Likewise, over the past two years I have seen many many baseball games - those involving the Jays and those not. The sample size of personal observation I'm working from is quite large.

We must remember that quoting a stat that you don't fully understand and without the proper contextual adjustments can lead you to false conclusions.

My subjective opinion, and the objective data (with its faults, as Robert points out) is that Eric Hinske is now a better defensive third baseman than Eric Munson, but not as good as Alex Rodriguez or Eric (what is it with all the Erics at third?) Chavez.

Arguing that Eric Hinske is either the worst defensive third baseman in the league or the best strains credulity. He has obviously improved significantly since last year, and is somewhere in the middle, where precisely being a matter of reasonable argument. His strengths are obvious- his throwing accuracy is good; he makes the diving play down the line well. His weaknesses are also obvious- he doesn't get rid of the ball fast enough to turn many DPs, and his range forward and into the hole, while improved, are still not great.

As I've said before, at this point, Eric's future will be determined by what he does with his bat. We can watch his GPA, and see how he does. It's now been a year since his hand surgery, so his performance in the second half of this year is a fair litmus test.

Since everyone is so fond of personal opinions, here's mine.

Hinske's apparent improvement is deceiving for one reason. He's playing closer to the batter than in years past. He's knocking down everything that comes his way and still has time to double pump all his throws to first. However, because he's playing closer to the batter, he doesn't cover as much territory as he has in years past. Therefore, many balls are going for hits this year that Hinske would have, in the past, knocked down and then sailed over Delgado's head with a rushed throw. This is why his F% is so high. Hinske is not being charged for errors on ball he cannot reach that go for hits even though he would have gotten to them last year.

NFH, just because someone isn't ready to annoint Hinske the next Brooks Robinson doesn't mean that he wants to see Hinske fail. Wilner made an irresponsible comment based on one stat (F%) and someone tried to call him on it. There is no "Canadian epidemic" at work in this situation.

Actually, if you check Hinske's career to date his RF is identical, This year 2.50 compared with 2.49 in 2003 and 2002. This tells us that he is getting the same number of total chances as he has any other year. Now admittedly his range is limited, the numbers are telling us that he gets to the same number of balls as any other year... he's just making the throws now.

NFH, just because someone isn't ready to annoint Hinske the next Brooks Robinson doesn't mean that he wants to see Hinske fail. Wilner made an irresponsible comment based on one stat (F%) and someone tried to call him on it. There is no "Canadian epidemic" at work in this situation.

So you think the caller didn't mean that Hinske was one of the very worst 3Bs in the league? Because referring to him over and over as the 25th would lead to that impression.

We see it here all the time, too. People get a hate-on for someone and won't let go of it, regardless of reality. All the callers that complained that Delgao didn't hustle last year.