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Here's some Monday morning food for thought for y'all.


It's not the bullpen's fault

I often think that fans expect too much from the Jays' bullpen. How many times have I heard something like this? "The Jays had a 3-2 lead after seven, but the bullpen couldn't hold it." What they're expecting here is for the bullpen to pitch two shutout innings every time out. Even Eric Gagne can't do that: for example, in his last outing, Gagne actually gave up a run (the horror! the horror!), but still got the save because he had a two-run lead to work with. All things being equal, the opposition is more likely to score in the late innings than the early innings, especially with a one-run lead: they'll send up the hot-hitting pinch hitter from the bench, or they'll play little ball to get the tying run. It's always important to remember that the other guys are trying to win too.

Which brings me to a related complaint: how much of an individual pitcher's "success" is just random chance? While I'm pleased that Vinny Chulk did the job last night - I think he will be a useful pitcher - I fear that the Jays will read more into his successful outing than may be warranted. I predict that (a) Chulk will get all of the key setup situations from now on until (b) he fails, as all pitchers do from time to time, at which time (c) he'll be moved to the bottom of the heap (or even to the minors, as happened to Mike Nakamura), and (d) whoever had the last hot outing will be moved to the top. While it's always good to go with a pitcher who is having a run of success, I worry that the constant role-swapping will undermine the bullpen's success as a whole.

Going, going, Zaun

Obviously, the Jays made a good move when they signed Gregg Zaun. He's hitting well, and he's playing decent defense. But making him the full-time everyday catcher, which seems to have happened recently, may be an example of the Domingo Cedeno Effect in action.

If you don't remember Domingo Cedeno - and why should you? - he was a mediocre middle infielder who hung around the Jays for a few years. When Felipe Crespo got hurt just before opening day in 1996, Cedeno wound up with the second base job by default, and immediately went on a tear, hitting about .350. He had never hit like that before, and never would again - but, understandably, he kept playing, as you can't bench somebody who is hitting that well. Crespo never got his job back, and eventually drifted out of the organization. (After, to be fair, being given a trial in the outfield, in which he didn't hit.)

Zaun may be another example of this. He's currently hitting .339 with some power and some walks. Bless him. But his career average is .246 (with on-base of .332 and slugging of .371), and he'll regress to that mean soon enough. (He's hitting .274 for June as I write this.) And Kevin Cash, who is supposedly one of the potential catchers of the future, is being left to rot on the bench.

I suppose you can't blame Carlos Tosca for making this decision. His job is to win right now, or else he'll likely get fired. And Cash isn't hitting. But one thing the Jays need to know is whether Cash can hit enough to be a major league regular, or whether he's the next Ken Huckaby. In a year or two, they'll have to decide: do they keep Cash, or do they give the job to Quiroz? This was the year they were supposed to figure that out - now, they won't have enough information to make an informed choice.

Set Josh Phelps Free!

You know your career is in trouble when they're playing Howie Clark and Dave Berg ahead of you, and that's what's happened to Josh Phelps. Have they given up on him? To be honest, I wouldn't blame them if they have - to me, it seems obvious that Phelps's long swing makes it difficult for him to make adjustments at the plate. To keep from being punched out by offspeed breaking stuff at the corners, he's had to become more defensive, and this has taken away his power. And, without power, Phelps has nothing to offer as a hitter.

If the Jays have given up on him, they should trade him as soon as possible while he still has value. Right now, there are probably several major league teams who would be willing to take a flyer on Josh - after all, he was a Baseball Prospectus cover boy and all that. They could get somebody useful for him (just as they got Jason Frasor for Jayson Werth).

But if they haven't given up on him, why on earth isn't he playing? Choose one or the other! Free Josh Phelps!

Who's on First?

I was thinking about Carlos Delgado the other day, and to me the question of whether the Jays can win without Delgado is now obvious. Of course they can. But they can't win unless they have a cleanup hitter hitting as well as Delgado did last year. Since it looks like Phelps isn't a viable option at first (see above), the Jays have three options available to them for next year:

(a) Re-sign Delgado, hopefully at a home-town discount, and hope he gets back to close to his 2003 form.
(b) Sign a big bomber to play first (or to play the outfield, and move Cat or somebody to first).
(c) Take the money they used to pay Delgado and stuff it in their trouser pockets.

I'm not sure (a) is a viable option. Somebody is going to throw a whole lot of money at Delgado in the offseason, just as the Angels threw a huge wad at Kelvim Escobar; $55 to $60 million over four years is my guess. And I don't think the Jays are willing to spend that much on a player who is now in his decline phase. Their only hope is that Carlos might be willing to take a bit of a discount to stay here. And he might; it all depends.

(c) would be a bad move, tempting as it is for the folks at Rogers, who are discovering that they can't conquer the world through media convergence. If the Jays concentrate on executing a financially viable business plan, the fans may decide to give up on the team and stay home and watch Nude Celebrity Bowling or something like that.

This leads to (b). If the Jays don't re-sign Delgado, there's no one on the farm to replace him. The Jays' system is stacked with outfielders, middle infielders, and pitching prospects, but there isn't a power-hitting big bomber coming up the ladder (I don't think Vito counts as one yet). The team desperately needs somebody in the middle of the lineup who can make baseballs disappear over fences. Perhaps there's one out there somewhere. And while you can't win a pennant by buying free agents (unless you're George Steinbrenner, and can buy all of them), you can upgrade a club significantly by using a free agent to fill a hole, and show the fans that, yes, you are actually trying to win here.

And it's not as though all free agents are evil; look at Miguel Batista, for instance, who seems to be earning his money.

Great Expectations

Despite all the misfortunes that have happened, and the misfortunes soon to come, I'm still in J.P. Ricciardi's corner. The only way you can win in baseball is to try to develop star players in your farm system, and J.P. is doing the best he can to do that.

However, I wonder whether he has raised expectations a wee bit too high. The basic idea we've been presented is this: we all wait patiently for three or four years, and then, when the farm system comes to full flower, we watch as the Jays kick butt and take names. This, unfortunately, leaves two things out of the equation:

- You need luck to succeed;
- All the other guys are trying to win too.

One thing that has been underemphasized, in my opinion, is that scouting and development is a bit of a crapshoot. All a scouting department can do is try to find the best players it can, and then cross their fingers. An example: Mike Piazza was a 62nd round pick in the 1988 amateur draft; he was only picked as a favour to his godfather, Tommy Lasorda. The Dodgers can't be given too much credit for finding him; he was basically a gift from the gods.

On the other hand, Dustin McGowan looked like a sure thing right up to the point at which his arm shredded. Now, he'll be out for at least a year, and it will probably be two years before he gets back to where he was before.

My concern is that fans may turn away in droves when they discover that, despite the Jays' best efforts, they're still not top of the heap in 2005 or 2006. Certain baseball writers are probably already salivating at the thought of writing a "See, we told you so!" article. Oh, well; I suppose that any GM who says, "Hey, I'm not sure we're likely to win, but I'm willing to try my best to do so," is not likely to get the job. It's like politics: if you make realistic promises, you don't get into office.

Anyway, that's more than enough from me, especially for a Monday. Comments definitely welcome; thanks for reading this far.
Some Monday morning rambling | 62 comments | Create New Account
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_Jim - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 09:09 AM EDT (#56369) #
I disagree on Kevin Cash. They've got more then enough information to see that he clearly cannot hit well at the highest level :).
_Keith Talent - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 09:13 AM EDT (#56370) #
but still got the save because he had a two-run lead to work with

I wish this was the reason. Unfortunately the umpires are helping Gagne's steak out now. HP umpire last night called two strikes one way outside, one way high and outside (which would have put Matsui on first with Bernie, the winning run, coming up). Makes my blood boil...
_NDG - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 09:22 AM EDT (#56371) #
I agree on all parts Dave. Some other comments.

Speier and Chulk should rotate pitching every other close game. Tosca'a obsession with pitching changes probably precludes this however. Chulk has been a reliever now for half a season. I don't like him pitching two days in a row until he's had a year relieving. However there's no reason he couldn't pitch two innings at a time. What I'm afraid of is Tosca overusing Chulk and then determining he can't pitch.

An example of Tosca's mismanagement. In the 10-2 loss to the Giants, Tosca used Chulk to finish the game, then brought him in again in the next game where Chulk struggled. While I admit this isn't damning evidence I ask, What's the point? Tosca's inability to think ahead costs the team just as much or more than his in-game tactics.

On Phelps, this is ridiculous. Even Phelps poor year to date is still better than what Berg is giving the team.

Cash needs to start versus the Rays. Even if he goes o-for the series Cash will impact most of the Rays offensive strategies, and will likely give his pitchers two to three outs in the series.
Craig B - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 09:24 AM EDT (#56372) #
I disagree on Kevin Cash. They've got more then enough information to see that he clearly cannot hit well at the highest level

Mike Schmidt hit .197 in his first 401 major league ABs. Please give Cash 500 at-bats before you write him off conclusively...
_Daryn - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 09:26 AM EDT (#56373) #
Two weeks ago I heard that since Gagne's streak of (then) 73 saves, the Dodgers had handed 24 blown saves to their opposition...

It IS an amazing streak, but I'm sorry to hear its becoming tainted...

Isn't playing Zaun ahead of Cash, the same mis-guided "Win-now" strategy as playing Howie Clark ahead of Phelps at First??

(I have no comment on the Berg strategy, that seems to be neither "win now" NOR "development)
Pistol - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 09:39 AM EDT (#56374) #
Which brings me to a related complaint: how much of an individual pitcher's "success" is just random chance? While I'm pleased that Vinny Chulk did the job last night - I think he will be a useful pitcher - I fear that the Jays will read more into his successful outing than may be warranted. I predict that (a) Chulk will get all of the key setup situations from now on until (b) he fails, as all pitchers do from time to time, at which time (c) he'll be moved to the bottom of the heap (or even to the minors, as happened to Mike Nakamura), and (d) whoever had the last hot outing will be moved to the top. While it's always good to go with a pitcher who is having a run of success, I worry that the constant role-swapping will undermine the bullpen's success as a whole.

This seems to be Tosca's MO. You're my guy until you fail.

(b) Sign a big bomber to play first (or to play the outfield, and move Cat or somebody to first).

I don't think this will be as easy to find as most people think.

To me the funny thing about Phelps is that if he was on another team and struggling like he is now I suspect that a lot of people in these parts would be hoping the Jays traded for him to play 1B next year.
_Chuck Van Den C - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 09:41 AM EDT (#56375) #
Dave, nice work. I concur with most everything you've said.

WRT Zaun vs. Cash, I would imagine that Tosca is sticking with Zaun to provide some measure of offense (as phony as it may be) until Wells and Delgado return. I would guess -- though have guessed wrong about Tosca many times before -- that Cash will take over as regular catcher come mid-July. That said, colour me pessimistic about Cash turning into much more than a non-hitting glove man, his April flirtation with offensive competence notwithstanding.

WRT Phelps, I would like to know who's decision it is to rank him behind both Clark and Berg on the team's depth chart? Is this coming from Ricciardi or is Phelps simply in Tosca's dog house? Last year, I never knew who's decision it was to bench Phelps in favour of Myers (or Wilson) and if last year's benching were inexcusable, then this year's benchings are criminal.

Unlike Werth, who at least is a toolsy player (if not one who has been able to leverage said tools into performance), Phelps is anything but toolsy and may not yield much on the trade market, particularly if NL teams shy away from his lack of on-field experience. If the Jays were to get rid of him, it would simply be for the sake of getting rid of him, not to fetch anything shiny in return.

WRT Delgado, does anyone know the rules exactly on how much he can be signed for? Certainly, were he offered arbitration, the team would have to pony up at least 80% of his 2004 salary, and that ain't going to happen. But what if the team were to offer him an $8M one-year extension, to buy Delgado a year to put up good numbers and drive up his value and to buy the team another year to figure out what to do next? Would the union have anything to say about the huge pay cut? I am guessing they could do no more than bark.

You said that somebody is going to throw a whole lot of money at Delgado in the offseason, but I can't see who. I think all of NY, Boston and Anaheim have reasons to not be interested for reasons other than his health and poor 2004 numbers. They are all log jammed at the 1B/DH positions. The Giants could use Delgado but Sabean doesn't like to spend big money. And the Dodgers, as I've speculated before, may (a) enter the Beltran sweepstakes and (b) want to keep 1B open as an option for Shawn Green, given his health concerns.

I am a Ricciardi fan but, at the very least, need him to step up and answer some questions:
(a) Is it his decision to push Phelps into the background? If not, does he approve it? If not, shouldn't he speak with Mr. Tosca?
(b) Is there a need that we have to endure middle infielders in outfield corners? Certainly someone as sharp as Ricciardi and crew can identify and obtain any of a number of AAAA outfielders. Find one of these guys and put them on the 40-man at Berg's expense. Waive Berg. With Menechino a seemingly preferable alternative, Berg is redundant.

One a final, positive note: the team now has 3 starters with ERA's in the 3's, something not too many AL teams can boast. But don't tell the media, they might have to praise somebody for that.
_Jonny German - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 09:46 AM EDT (#56376) #
The bullpen: I agree, and I fear the same thing is happening with Jason Frasor - He pitches 30 good innings and we start talking like he's the righthanded Billy Wagner. Didn't Aquilino throw 70 good innings just last year? Maybe Frasor is destined to be the lights-out closer in Toronto for the next 5 years, but he's got a lot more pitching to do before it's reasonable to expect that.

I assume the front office does have reasonable expectations for Frasor, and Chulk and File. Unfortunately, Tosca seems to value recent performance far above a solid resume built over several years... thus he trusts the Frasor/Chulk/File threesome over Speier/Ligtenberg/Adams. To each his own.
_Jordan - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 09:53 AM EDT (#56377) #
I'll offer one argument in favour of starting Zaun over Cash right now, a move that normally I wouldn't condone: the lineup has been devastated with injuries, and Zaun is one of only hot bats on the entire team. With the very real possibility that the 2-3-4 hitters are all going to be on the DL, the Jays are forced into the ridiculous position of batting Reed Johnson cleanup and using AAAA players like Clark and Berg in a semi-regular rotation. In that position, you simply can't afford to give away even more outs by starting a catcher who's struggling with the bat and benching a guy who's hitting .339. Thinking of the future is of course important, but in the present, fans pay money to see a team trying to win, and playing Cash ahead of Zaun right now would be tantamount to thumbing your nose at the people in the seats.

Now, when two or more of the Big Three get back in action, then Cash absolutely should be given the starting job back. But until then, he needs to be patient and accept that the 2004 season hasn't gone the way anyone planned. And he should be (and probably is) grilling Zaun about how to successfully communicate with Lilly and Batista -- two pitchers who, for whatever reason, turned it around when Cash hit the bench.

I entirely agree with Dave on the balance of his comments. There's something weird going on with the Phelps situation, and I don't know what it is. But I've noticed in the past that if you fall out of favour in JP Ricciardi's Toronto, for whatever reason, your chances of recovering are extremely slim.

Regarding the bullpen: I still say the best arm down there, the best proven reliever, is Justin Speier, and I'm optimistic that by the end of the year, that fact will have manifested itself.

All a scouting department can do is try to find the best players it can, and then cross their fingers. An example: Mike Piazza was a 62nd round pick in the 1988 amateur draft

Not to mention the 47th- and 50th-round picks who started the year as the Blue Jays' double-play combo. That said, a team like Toronto really needs to get their drafting and development right more often than the richer teams do, because that's one of the few edges they have. Personally, I would characterize the current Jays' system as having had a lot of bad luck so far -- had things gone as well this year as they actually went poorly, Rosario and McGowan would both be throwing bullets at Triple-A as we speak. It's been a rough year.

The team desperately needs somebody in the middle of the lineup who can make baseballs disappear over fences. Perhaps there's one out there somewhere.

Richie Sexson, coming off an injury-plagued season in a depressed market: one- or two-year contract filled with production bonuses.
Dave Till - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 09:57 AM EDT (#56378) #
Tosca seems to value recent performance far above a solid resume built over several years... thus he trusts the Frasor/Chulk/File threesome over Speier/Ligtenberg/Adams.

Which reminds me: does anyone but me recall that Tom Henke actually lost his job in 1989? He got off to a rocky start, and Jimy Williams gave up on him, using Duane Ward in close games. Cito gradually rehabilitated him, and by the end of the season he was back to being the invincible Terminator again.

I don't think Speier, Ligtenberg or Adams is anywhere near Henke's level of ability, but it's not like any of them is Jeff Tam. Perhaps J.P. did his job too well - Tosca has too many bullpen choices available, and can't decide between them.

This may be Tosca's weakness as a manager in general - he makes changes too quickly. He's the anti-Cito in this respect: once Cito made a decision, he stuck with it, possibly for too long.
Named For Hank - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 10:09 AM EDT (#56379) #
(c) would be a bad move, tempting as it is for the folks at Rogers, who are discovering that they can't conquer the world through media convergence.

They know it: on the Fan the other day they said the TV numbers for the Jays were down 20% from last season, which will impact advertising revenue for next year. Rogers know that the team has to be competitive in order for the TV and radio money to be good.

Unfortunately, Tosca seems to value recent performance far above a solid resume built over several years... thus he trusts the Frasor/Chulk/File threesome over Speier/Ligtenberg/Adams. To each his own.

Check out half of the posts in game threads where we lose: Tosca is doing what "we" are calling for him to do. (And yes, I know that most of those posts are the same guy posting under six names.)

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that maybe he reads the Box or any one of a dozen other places where the same sentiments are being expressed.
_NDG - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 10:10 AM EDT (#56380) #
thus he trusts the Frasor/Chulk/File threesome over Speier/Ligtenberg/Adams. To each his own.

I don't know why Tosca won't use Adams and Ligtenburg (when healthy). They both have a track record of being competent, yet Tosca seems to have lost all confidence in them. He only seems to use them when he runs out of pitchers, which is the worst possible scenario as it costs the team runs in close games. He needs to start getting them in games in lower pressure situations, so that hopefully they become useful again.
Dave Till - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 10:26 AM EDT (#56381) #
I'll offer one argument in favour of starting Zaun over Cash right now, a move that normally I wouldn't condone: the lineup has been devastated with injuries, and Zaun is one of only hot bats on the entire team.

Good point. After thinking about this some, I figured out that I lack a vital piece of information. Is Zaun doing well because he's made an adjustment and the league hasn't caught up yet, or is he just fluking into a hot streak?

If it's all just a fluke, playing Zaun instead of Cash isn't helping the team now or in the future. But if Zaun actually has made an adjustment - and Mike Barnett is presumably smart enough to figure out how to get him to do that - playing Zaun until the pitchers adjust back is a good idea.

Besides, the "Going, Going, ZAUN!" chant is kind of fun. :-)
Named For Hank - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 10:32 AM EDT (#56382) #
It's way more fun that Going, Going, Estalella.
Named For Hank - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 10:33 AM EDT (#56383) #
It's way more fun than Going, Going, Estalella.
_Jacko - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 10:34 AM EDT (#56384) #

I am a Ricciardi fan but, at the very least, need him to step up and answer some questions:
(a) Is it his decision to push Phelps into the background? If not, does he approve it? If not, shouldn't he speak with Mr. Tosca?

The Jays braintrust (Tosca+JP) can't be this dumb.

It's been suggested here in the last few weeks that Phelps may be nursing an injury, either to his back or knees. It would go a long way to explaining why he's been so easily overpowered this year, and has more or less stopped pulling the ball for power.
_Jacko - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#56385) #

Now, when two or more of the Big Three get back in action, then Cash absolutely should be given the starting job back. But until then, he needs to be patient and accept that the 2004 season hasn't gone the way anyone planned. And he should be (and probably is) grilling Zaun about how to successfully communicate with Lilly and Batista -- two pitchers who, for whatever reason, turned it around when Cash hit the bench.

And if they're so enamoured with Zaun's bat right now, why not give him some PT at first base (instead of Berg/Clark) and get Cash back behind the plate more than once a week?

Is it me, or does catching seem like one of the more "fungible" positions in the majors? Zaun/Estalalla will combine to make less than 1MM this year. Almost all catchers experience serious growing pains when they arrive in the show -- maybe it's a better idea to let other teams develop them and sign them as free agents? Cash has obvious talent, but it's been a little frustrating waiting for him to settle in.
_Ryan Day - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#56386) #
The most plausible theory I can come up with regarding the Jays' treatment of Phelps is this: They're hoping he stinks so bad, that the perception of his defence is so horrible, and that he plays so rarely that teams either won't want him or won't remember him and he can slip through waivers and play at Syracuse for a few months.
Gerry - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#56387) #
Tampa Bay are in town this week with Carl Crawford, Rocco Baldelli, et al running the bases. Last year TB ran wild on the Jays. Will Cash start against TB to close down the running game?
_Jim - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 11:05 AM EDT (#56388) #
Mike Schmidt was 22 and still managed an OPS+ of 91 his second year because he still got on base 32% of the time even though he hit less then .200.

Kevin Cash is 26 and has absolutely no hope of even being a league average hitter. If I had any other option at all I wouldn't even waste 500 at bats on him.
Named For Hank - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 11:11 AM EDT (#56389) #
Out of curiosity, Jim, what are you basing your evaluation of Cash's future on?
robertdudek - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 11:19 AM EDT (#56390) #
Catchers as a group hit below league average. Cash wouldn't have to improve very much with the bat to be a league average catcher overall (offence and defence). Age is one factor, but experience probably means more - Cash doesn't have a lot of major league experience.
Coach - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 11:22 AM EDT (#56391) #
Great Expectations

The Jays aren't going to be "top of the heap" in 2005, but with Halladay-Batista-Lilly and a lot of solid relievers, all they need to be an exciting contender is consistent hitting. Anybody who tunes their crystal ball to 2006 and beyond is going to get fuzzy reception, but that's when the vastly improved farm system should be paying real dividends, and if there's one thing you can count on this front office to do, it's avoid expensive blunders.

Who's on First?

If they don't sign Delgado, Vernon Wells can be a team-carrying superstar, but they aren't likely to score nearly 900 runs again, like they did in 2003. However, with reasonable health among the regulars, the offence will be much better than this year's model, which is setting team records only for man-games missed.

There are other FA options, if Carlos moves on. Jordan has mentioned Sexson, and I'll offer Troy Glaus as another candidate for a short, incentive-laden contract to prove that he's still an elite player. A more economical stopgap, like Kevin Millar, is a possibility. They could sign a 3B (Koskie? Mueller?) and move Hinske across the diamond.

Set Josh Phelps Free!

Phelps is a mystery. Whether he's hurt or not, his confidence must be shattered, and a change of scenery may be the only thing that revives his career now. He has earned his demotion (to the smaller half of a DH platoon) and that won't give him much of an opportunity to hit his way out of the doghouse. I admit to pondering scenarios that would have been ludicrous a few months ago, like "would the Tigers take Josh for Marcus Thames?" I'm sure that Mr. Wilner, and more than one caller, will be asking J.P. about this on Wednesday.

It's not the bullpen's fault

Dave, I completely agree that the "constant role-swapping" is not a good thing, but it's not the manager's fault, either. Even though I might have just handed the closer job to Justin Speier on the first day of camp, Tosca's decision to get to know all his new relievers as people in March and test them in various game situations in April made perfect sense.

Since then, he's had to be reactive. A lot of guys have taken turns failing. Kershner can't get lefties out, and Adams keeps throwing kerosene on the fire against righties. De los Santos and Ligtenberg are hurt. Chulk has done a fine job, and Frasor is a delightful surprise, but I agree with the "wait and see" sentiments on what their ultimate roles should be. At least there's some bullpen depth, compared to a couple of years ago. Don't count Kevin Frederick out, and that's Adam Peterson looming behind him.

Going, going, Zaun

The strange thing about Zaun is that he's had terrific years with the bat before, notably 1997 with the Marlins and 2001 with the Royals. He's also had brutal seasons, like 1998 and 2003. You can choose to call the good ones flukes, but there might also be reasonable excuses for the bad ones -- catchers get banged up.

I prefer to think that Gregg has, like Crash last year, bought into the Mike Barnett philosophy and improved himself as a hitter. (Yes, I know Barney coaches Phelps too, but no matter how good the instruction, players still have to execute.) I'm not predicting he'll stay at .339/.424/.461 forever, but he's had too many great AB for me to expect him to "regress" to his career averages.

The real surprise to me has been Zaun's competent throwing and excellent game-calling. He deserves to be the #1 catcher, but it's a nice option to be able to insert the Cash cannon against the D-Rays and let Zaun DH.
_S.K. - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#56392) #
Mr. Phelps, have you met Felipe Lopez?

During the '02 season, a rebuilding year, Lopez lost his job to Chris Woodward, who back then was branded the title of "utility infielder".
Lopez was a 5-tool 22-year old short-stop on a team with shaky middle infield depth, and he was dealt for a bottom of the rotation college pitcher with limited upside (because college pitchers with average stuff who "know how to pitch" are neato and keen!). Phelps could be facing the same situation, except there isn't a "Woodward" to take his spot full-time (unless they call up Gross).

Tosca is not high on Phelps, that much is obvious. However, Ricciardi would have told Tosca to play Phelps by now, if he felt it would be best for the long-term interest of the team. The fact that Ricciardi doesn't appear to have intervened yet tells me either Phelps is injured, or he'll be playing elsewhere in '05.

With that said, Phelps deserves to be benched, especially if we can't put him in the minors without having to pass him through waivers.
Craig B - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 12:18 PM EDT (#56393) #
Jim, I wasn't comparing Cash to Schmidt (I'm not stupid); I'm suggesting that perfectly good hitters frequently struggle in their adjustment to the majors.

Cash will be fine; I really do believe this. I don't think he's going to hit a lot; I do think he will post a 700 OPS (his 50th-percentile PECOTA forecast was .228/.298/.382, and BPro's prediction for him was .237/.303/.407, which sounds just about right). PECOTA gives him a very good shot at hitting some home runs, as I do too... he's shown some power at every previous level and he'll be flashing it in Toronto before long, though he may have to fully recover from his ribcage injury first (like hand injuries, ribcage injuries tend to sap power).
_Jim - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 12:30 PM EDT (#56394) #
I have no problem with Kevin Cash being a second catcher who can control the running game. I just don't see him ever adding much value with his bat.

It's a shame for him that he made it to the show at a time when stealing bases is so unpopular. At other times in history he could have been much more valuable.

I'm just basing it on what i've seen of his at-bats, his minor + major league numbers. I think it's pretty evident that the Blue Jays aren't sold either.
_Jim - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 12:32 PM EDT (#56395) #
I know you weren’t talking about Cash turning into Schmidt. My point was that Schmidt didn’t struggle nearly as badly as Cash. Throw in the fact that he was 3-4 years younger and the offensive levels of the NL in 1973 weren’t as high as the AL in 2003/2004 and it’s not really that valid of a comparison.
_dp - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 12:46 PM EDT (#56396) #
Mike Young and Cesear Izturis have developed into good hitters after being worthless with the bat for a couple of years. Brent Abernathy didn't. Too soon to tell if Izturis is for real, but he was hitting well at a very young age in the advanced minors. Sometimes, it takes guys a couple of years to figure things out, so you can't really make conclusions about Cash.

Would it help Phelps if he went back to catching? Not with Toronto, but maybe it would help him get PT if he moved somewhere else. Afterall, the logic of him abandoning the position was that it would imact his hitting, but it isn't like he could get worse...
_Jonny German - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 12:54 PM EDT (#56397) #
he was dealt for a bottom of the rotation college pitcher with limited upside (because college pitchers with average stuff who "know how to pitch" are neato and keen!)

I can only assume that this is an intentional cheap shot to get a reaction... well, here you go: Jason Arnold's AA career consisted of 110 innings with a 2.35 ERA, 2.60 K/BB, 8.51 K/9 and 0.41 HR/9. To call him a "bottom of the rotation college pitcher with limited upside" is a complete joke. He was a very good pitching prospect when he was acquired, and remained so until hitting a wall in AAA. Why should that wall have been expected? Even with his continued struggles this year, he won't set any precedents if he goes on to be a very effective Major Leaguer.
Named For Hank - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 01:09 PM EDT (#56398) #
Would it help Phelps if he went back to catching?

I think he can't, because of his knees.

I'm just basing it on what i've seen of [Cash's] at-bats, his minor + major league numbers.

Do you think it's enough data to judge his career on?
_dp - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 01:13 PM EDT (#56399) #
I think he can't, because of his knees.

Even as a 3rd/emergency catcher? AFIK, he doesn't have that ability now (spring training last year when he said he was getting rid of the catcher's gear) and it would give him more value on a roster than he has as a DH/1B. if he did that for the Jays, early on in the season it would've allowed Myers to get into more gamees as a PH.
_Jobu - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#56400) #
I'm not fully up to speed on the details of baseball politics, but what would be the feasibility of JP having a "handshake under the table agreement" with Carlos in which Carlos is traded at the deadline for a quality OF and/or good off the bench player and then (surprise) signed back to the Jays at a good 1 year price with a better lineup around him, a chance to win, and up his 2004 numbers?

Didn't the O's do roughly the same thing with Ponson?

On another note, does anyone think the ill-tempers between the Jays and Rays will carry over from last year, or is this going to be another ho-hum series?
_Loveshack - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#56401) #
Jobu, I like your thinking about Delgado. I dont know how possible it is, but Ive been wishing/hoping for the same thing and I think it's probably the best case scenario for the Jays at this point.
_DaveInNYC - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 01:27 PM EDT (#56402) #
There was an article in the Globe and Mail the other day regarding Hinske, Phelps, and Cat.

JP said that the team has lost it's patience with Phelps and that odds are he is NOT part of the team's future.

He also mentioned how Hinske has earned the right to play 3rd base due to his improved defense. Tosca went on to say that "Hinske will never live up to fans expectations." JP went on to say that Hinske will be a "250-260" hitter.

JP said he might just have Cat play 1st base next season.

Phelps and Cash have proven they aren't major league caliber players. I would like to see the team call up Gross to play some DH for the Jays seeing as how he can't play in the field.
_Rob - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 01:40 PM EDT (#56403) #
So there are no more whispers about moving Hinske to first base, if Carlos Delgado leaves as a free agent this winter. That has nothing to do with Josh Phelps's future with the team — Phelps has exhausted the patience of the organization with his batting and is not in its long-term plans — but rather highlights Hinske's improved defence at third. (Jeff Blair, The Globe and Mail, June 19)

Blair wouldn't say "Phelps has exhausted the patience of the organization" if it wasn't true, but he throws Phelps' situation in there when it should warrant its own article.

Has JP said anything with respect to Phelps/Cat/2005 first baseman lately?
_Rob - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 01:42 PM EDT (#56404) #
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040619.wjays19/BNStory/Sports/?query=phelps
And it was Tosca, not JP, who said Hinske might be one of those players who never fulfills expectations of fans.

COMN for article.
_DaveInNYC - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 01:45 PM EDT (#56405) #
Thanks for the link Rob, that's the article I was referring to in my post. I'm pretty sure that I wrote that Tosca said Hinske wouldn't fulfill fan expectations, not JP.

I think Phelps is toast with the Jays with some of the prospects on the way.
Mike Green - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 01:46 PM EDT (#56406) #
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040619.wjays19/BNStory/Sports/?query=Josh+Phelps
COMN for the article that I believe DaveinNYC is referring to. In the article, JP is quoted with respect to Hinske, but not Phelps. Jeff Blair states, without attribution, that Phelps has exhausted the patience of the organization and is not in its long-term plans. If that's true, I'm sure that some other organization would love to have him and playing Berg over Phelps is not improving Phelps' trade value.
Mike Green - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#56407) #
Rob, you beat me to it again.
_Blue in SK - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 01:48 PM EDT (#56408) #
Great discussion. Dave you ask the same questions questions I have been pondering for awhile.

The only comment I can add is, why adopt the "win now" strategy. The season is lost - even a wild card is a remote possibility, especially with our 3 best hitters on the DL. So get into the "development" strategy and see who is going to help the team long term.

One other person, being forgotten in this discussion is Woodward. i heard Jerry Howarth say in a recent broadcast that Tosca no longer considers him the everyday SS due to his inability to make the routine play. This comment came in reference to a ball Woody booted that cost us a game against the D'backs. Without an immediate option in the minors, let Woody play and see if he is an everyday player or a reserve infielder.

It's kind of ironic that the thinking gets reversed here, i.e. that we need Zaun's offense over Cash's defence but with regard to SS apparently anybody's defense (Berg, Gomez, Mennichino) is better than Woody's offense.
_DaveInNYC - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 01:51 PM EDT (#56409) #
Without an immediate option in the minors, let Woody play and see if he is an everyday player or a reserve infielder.

Russ Adams comes to mind as an immediate option in the minors. And while Aaron Hill may not be ready, he's another option for shortstop sometime down the road.

Also, I agree with the "development" strategy. I see no point in playing guys like Clark and Berg seeing as how they have no future with the team. Meanwhile, Phelps and Cash just rot on the bench and it's not really giving them a fair chance.

I'd be in favor of calling up guys like Gross, Adams, Bush, etc. to try and get their feet wet.
_Jacko - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 01:53 PM EDT (#56410) #

I'd be in favor of calling up guys like Gross, Adams, Bush, etc. to try and get their feet wet.

Gross, unfortunately, is DH-only because of a wonky elbow. He's scheduled to have surgery at the end of the year. A mid-season callup is very unlikely for this reason.

I'm not opposed to seeing Bush or Adams up here. They both could use a little more seasoning, but I don't think they would embarrass themselves either.
Named For Hank - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 01:56 PM EDT (#56411) #
I have no problem, as a fan paying money to see games, with calling up a bunch of kids to see how they do if the season has been conceded. Call it a preview of things to come.
_DaveInNYC - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 01:56 PM EDT (#56412) #
This is where I'm questioning the path the organization is taking.

I don't see how the team or JP expects to contend in 2005 or 2006 without calling up the prospects prior to letting them get some MLB experience.

I see it as being very risky to expect to call up all the big time prospects at basically the same time and expect them to contend in what is to be their rookie seasons.

It'll be tough.
_Loveshack - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 01:58 PM EDT (#56413) #
It's kind of ironic that the thinking gets reversed here, i.e. that we need Zaun's offense over Cash's defence but with regard to SS apparently anybody's defense (Berg, Gomez, Mennichino) is better than Woody's offense.

Before we get too carried away here. I dont think Berg has played SS at all, and Menechino (who's been better at the plate then Woodward anyway) only 5 games. And Woody has been injured for a decent stretch as well.
_DaveInNYC - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 01:58 PM EDT (#56414) #
Here's my stance on the whole "win now" theory.

I would much rather watch a team filled with future contributors lose than I would a team with no upside lose.

I'd rather watch Phelps butcher a play at first base than Dave Berg or Howie Clark.

If they are to concede this season, which it appears they have, bring up the young guns.
Named For Hank - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 02:02 PM EDT (#56415) #
I don't see how the team or JP expects to contend in 2005 or 2006 without calling up the prospects prior to letting them get some MLB experience.

I think they're waiting, though, a bit longer to avoid something to do with the long term contracts. Right?
_DaveInNYC - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 02:03 PM EDT (#56416) #
I understand the money side of things.

Holding back players until they are ready so that you can get the player in his prime.

I agree with the philosophy for the most part... but to expect them to win in 05 like JP has said when they would all be 1st and 2nd year players seems unrealistic to me.

06 or 07 seems most realistic to me.
_Blue in SK - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 02:09 PM EDT (#56417) #
Loveshack - I think you and are in agreement. I think Woody should be the everyday SS, regardless of his defensive lapses.

It's Tosca and his "punish those who fail" startegy that drives me nuts. He does it in the bullpen and now he's doing it in the field. Yeah, Woody booted a ball but so what, everyone realized at the beginning of the year that he's not Mike Bordick. Everybody was calling for Hinske's head last year when he played some terrible defense and offense (doubles aside), but they stuck with him and let him play through those growing pains - why not the same treatment for Woody, or Cash or Phelps.

And if the organization has determined that Woody's not the answer, why not bring up Adams?
_DaveInNYC - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#56418) #
Why is it so bad to "punish those who fail?"

Billy Beane does it in Oakland all the time. When a guy is not performing, the guy doesn't get many chances. Just look at what's happening with the A's closer spot.

I don't agree with many things Tosca does, but if a guy is literally costing you games like Woodward has in the past with his glove, than you need to put the right guys out there on the field.

Plus, Menechino has played well at short and he's even hitting well too.
_DaveInNYC - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 02:21 PM EDT (#56419) #
And with regards to Tosca's use of the bullpen, I wouldn't really call it "punish those who fail."

Instead I'd call it "reward those who fail."

Terry Adams kept on failing in big situations, yet he kept seeing his way to the mound every time the Jays needed an out most.
_Jobu - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 02:30 PM EDT (#56420) #
In refference to my previous comment, I remember Carlos and his pesky "not waiving the no trade clause unless an extension is signed" statement, but maybe he'd let that go if him and JP could negotiate a one year agreement before trading him and I think JP's word as GM is solid enough that handshake would be alright to assure he'd be brought back in the off season.
_Jim - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#56421) #
Yes, I personally have seen enough of Cash to make a decision on him. That's the way baseball works... you have to make decisions at some point. You can't give everyone 2,000 at bats.
_dp - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#56422) #
It'll take a monster second half to get Delgado's numbers looking decent, and with Wells out plus a shaky top of the order, his counting stats will look pretty bad regardless. With injury concerns, I could see him needing (wanting) to pull a Pudge/Juan Gone type move and take a 1 year incentive-laden contract somewhere when/if the huge offers fail to materialize.

In the offseason, I said (probably some others as well) that the best thing for the Jays long-term, if they weren't going to be in the hunt this year, would be for Delgado to have a bad year. I didn't think it'd be this bad, but this has to increase the chances he'll be affordable.
_S.K. - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#56423) #
Why is the "punish those who fail" theory wrong? Phelps has an OPS that Rey Ordonez would giggle at, and Tosca is supposed to keep throwing him out there to be embarrassed on a nightly basis? Why? Because we aren't winning anything this year? Hell, with that logic, let's bring up Josh Banks to replace the "not in our future plans" Pat Hentgen.

Tosca is in a tough position. He has to put the best lineup on the field with the three best hitters on the team out due to injury. Menechino is not in the future plans, but he's hitting very well so far, so the hot streak has to be riden out in order to get the maximum reward we can out of him. Ditto Greg Zaun. Would I like for Phelps to get 500 AB? Certainly, but not if he's going to strike out an insane amount of times, and not use the only attribute that makes him valuable (power). If he's not making contact, thereby not hitting for power, he's useless. So either you bench him or send him down, and since the latter is not an option, you bench him. Period.

Maybe in the off-season, with Durazo's impending free-agency, Ricciardi and Beane will get together and make a deal for Phelps. Considering we stole Lilly from them in the last trade, we'll surely end up getting fleeced in this one.
_Loveshack - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#56424) #
Maybe in the off-season, with Durazo's impending free-agency, Ricciardi and Beane will get together and make a deal for Phelps. Considering we stole Lilly from them in the last trade, we'll surely end up getting fleeced in this one.

I dont know about that, JP seems to be pretty good at getting a good deal from Oakland in the trade department so far. Hinske/Miller for Koch also comes to mind.
_Chuck Van Den C - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 06:15 PM EDT (#56425) #
This may have already been mentioned, but I just read that Tom Wilson has been called up to the Mets, replacing the injured Vance Wilson.

I understand why he was released by the Jays and am not second-guessing, but he would have looked nice grabbing a few AB vs LHP at 1B and CA during Delgado's and Cash's absence.
_the real S.K. - Monday, June 21 2004 @ 10:37 PM EDT (#56426) #
I just thought I'd point out that I am the S.K. who has been posting at the Box since last season, and the guy posting by that name above is not me.

I gotta say, I never thought this would be a nickname I'd have to fight to keep.
_Matt - Tuesday, June 22 2004 @ 06:03 AM EDT (#56427) #
In reference to Delgado though, he's a class A right? That means if he simply walks to Free Agency next year than we receive someone else's #1 plus a compensatory sandwich pick do we not?

Or do the jays only receive the picks if they are willing to offer the FA to depart (delgado) 80% of his previous contract (which seems kinda ridiculous at this point)...

I would think that the logical choice is to just let the man play out the rest of his deal (unless another club blows JP away with an incredible offer) and take the picks. If Zach Jackson turns out to be a perennial 15 gm winner than I shall be howling with laughter at Escobar's almighty pay raise.
_Chuck Van Den C - Tuesday, June 22 2004 @ 07:57 AM EDT (#56428) #
Matt, I believe you only get the draft choices if you offer arbitration.

Remember when David Segui was all set to sign a FA deal several years ago (or say his agent let on)? The Jays offered arbitration, to get the draft choices, and saw their plans go awry when Segui agreed to it.
_S.K. - Tuesday, June 22 2004 @ 09:44 AM EDT (#56429) #
The Jays would have to offer Carlos arbitration to get draft picks, and I don't know the exact number, but if we offer him arbitration and he accepts, than we still have to pay him some ridiculous figure like $16 million a year (someone with better understanding of arbitration rules can elaborate on that).

If the Jays don't trade Delgado, than we probably lose him for nothing. The chance of him accepting arbitration is just too big of a risk to take for a team who needs every penny it has. Carlos still being a week or so away from returning doesn't give him much time to raise his value. Hopefully this rep and career numbers are enough to get at least one really good prospect/player for him by the deadline.

Posted by: "the real S.K."
"I just thought I'd point out that I am the S.K. who has been posting at the Box since last season, and the guy posting by that name above is not me. I gotta say, I never thought this would be a nickname I'd have to fight to keep."

If you are the person who posts as "Blue in S.K.", I'm sure the people here would know the difference (and I'm positive most couldn't care less). If you're just "S.K.", even though they are my initials, you had it first, so I'll change it up next time. Not a big deal.
Named For Hank - Tuesday, June 22 2004 @ 09:59 AM EDT (#56430) #
It's like the thing with Ryan, the real Ryan, the original Ryan and Ryan01 all over again.

;)
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