I started to listen to last night's game on the radio, but quickly got a headache.
Seems the Argos turf was a success. Hopefully the Jays can switch to the same fake plastic grass.

Hentgen: I wonder if they can see me, if I can't see them.

Hentgen: And it wears me out, it wears me out, it wears me out, it wears me out.

He looks like a broken man, a cracked polystyrene man.

Hentgen: I need a new green plastic watering can, for my fake chinese rubber plant.

Hentgen: Hey, Cash, check it out. I'm Dave Stieb losing a no-hitter.

It's pretty ironic that everyone on here was slagging Berg last night and he had the best game of anyone in a Jays' uniform (not saying much though...).

I wasn't surprised to see File struggle... He had a great ERA at Syracuse but he wasn't striking anybody out. You can't get away with that at this level... especially when you're a flyball pitcher!

Hentgen: Hey, Cash, check it out. I'm Dave Stieb losing a no-hitter.

Nice.

Wow.. everyone got that one. I guess they're easier when I contemporize them. The song was Fake Plastic Trees from the Radiohead album The Bends.

For being the first, Christopher wins 80 million points and a picture of a threatening cuttlefish:

Great. Moffatt uses my favourite song from one of my all-time favourite albums, and I'm late to work and everybody gets it before me.

On the up side, that's one of the ugliest cuttlefish I've seen in these parts.

Wow, this from Jeff Blair:

According to some in the organization, Ricciardi was within days of firing Tosca last month as the Blue Jays stumbled to a 15-13 record on the heels of April's 7-15 mark

On a somewhat unrelated note, I'd like to pose a question to Bauxites. I really hope it doesn't deterioate this thread to the point that Moffatt fears but... where do the Jays go from here? At the beginning of the year they had one of those "if everything goes right we could surprise people" type teams and have thus far gone on to have one of those years where everything went wrong.

Do they blow it up, play the prospects, trade whatever spare parts they can for more prospects and push back the plans to contend another couple years while the young guys develop? Or do they step things up, hoping their luck will even out, by trading a few of those developing, not quite major-league-ready players for a big bat and/or arm that can help right away?

Hentgen dabbles in philosophy during Jays' loss: "If I can't see it, it's not happening, right?"

Hentgen: Watch me pull my eyeballs out like that guy from The Last Starfighter.

I guess Riccardi would be villified around baseball for firing Tosca now, with what he has to work with. Should have stuck it to him when he had the chance.

Do they blow it up, play the prospects, trade whatever spare parts they can for more prospects and push back the plans to contend another couple years while the young guys develop? Or do they step things up, hoping their luck will even out, by trading a few of those developing, not quite major-league-ready players for a big bat and/or arm that can help right away?

I'd say neither. They don't really have too many spare parts they can trade (other than maybe Cat, and I don't think that's a spectacular idea). They're not going to go after a big bat this year; they're too far out of contention.

I imagine they'll just stay the course, maybe make a couple of peripheral moves. The only thing the Jays need to do is figure out why so many guys keep getting hurt... and the answer to that maybe just plain bad luck.

Hentgen: Boy, do I need 2 222s. Wish my ERA was that 2!

That's a tough question Ryan. The Jays doubt seem to have enough MLB-ready players down on the farm, in either AAA or AA. And I don't think there are a whole lot of players who are marketable. Catalanotto is probably the best bet, once he proves he's healthy, but he is one of the few Jays who's hitting well. He is also a different type of hitter than most of the Jays (which adds balance to the lineup) in the fact that he doesn't try to freakin' pull every pitch... Are you listening Phelps, Hinske? If they'd learn to hit some outside pitches the other way they could raise their averages 20 or 30 points! But I digress... I think the one person they should trade is Zaun (to Florida?) because he has raised his marketability moreso than any other Jay... Maybe they could weasel Eric Reed (speed/on-base/defence/average) from Florida if they sweeten the pot with someone like JF Griffin.

Hentgen: Oh Damn, those jerks Ace and Diamond made the road trip.

Hentgen: Be the ball, be the ball. Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na...

Do they blow it up, play the prospects, trade whatever spare parts they can for more prospects and push back the plans to contend another couple years while the young guys develop?

Other than the McGowan injury, and perhaps Phelps not developing at the plate as expected so far, is there anything that’s happened this year that should change what the plan for 2005 is compared to what the plan was back in the spring? Sure a lot of bad things have happened this year, but what specifically has changed that makes 2005 look bleak now, when it looked great back in March?

Maybe I'm naive, but I just chalk this season up to bad luck. Besides McGowan my outlook for the team in 2005 is no different today than it was 3 months ago.

They should fire Tosca. This team is playing poorly, and the young guys who should be performing aren't; that's supposedly Tosca's strength. Hinske and Phelps have sucked. Cash has been pretty mediocre after a couple of weeks as Pudge. The cycle of guys from AAA hasn't produced much. Johnson and Woodward are the only guys on the team who've outperformed expectations (Zaun, but you don't keep a manager because of his ability to motivate the backup catcher). Coach, who I'm now convinced is a paid apologist for JP/Carlos (kidding, relax), was saying yesterday that Hinske's finally ready to prove the naysayers wrong, like there's something wrong with pointing out that a third baseman who can't slug .400 sucks. This isn't to say that people should give up on the team, but christ, do you really want to watch a ballclub that trots out Dave Berg as the left fielder? Yeah, he had a three hit game yesterday, but even with that, he couldn't get his average over .200. They need a shakeup of some sort, and from what I've seen, Tosca's in-game strategies this year have been poor, so i don't want him here even when everyone's healthy....

Yeah, I figure the answer is still somewhere in between the two extremes, as it always has been. But my first reaction to all this landed closer to the first option. Now I find myself leaning a little more towards the latter. The talent is there, and eventually they're going to get a break or two. While I think for the most part you stay the course, I wouldn't be opposed to giving the team a little shove, even if it costs a Gross, Adams/Hill, Cash/Quiroz, League etc. I think you chalk it up to bad luck as well and stay on track trying to contend in 2005-2007.

Unless it means something bad in terms of future salary etc, I'm all for calling up our future stars if the season is being conceded. What's the downside if they're not quite ready?

The first more the Jays should make is to pick up Curtis Leskanic, who was recently released from the Royals to add some stability and veteran experience... The change would probably do him well and it would only cost them at most $300,000. Plus he has closer experience.

Hentgen: Could someone please turn the floodlights down a few notches?"

Did you notice last night that Phelps actually looked like he can play first base? He made a nice diving stab in the 4th(?) to his right.

The Jays don't really have much of anyone they could sell off at this point. Delgado's been either injured or horrible for the whole season, and has the contract and the no-trade clause. Catalanotto's a possibility, if he can stay hot and healthy for the next month. But as somebody else said, I'm not even sure that's such a great idea; if Delgado goes in the offseason and Phelps doesn't remember to hit, Cat would be good to have around. Hopefully J.P. can have some informal discussions with Cat and get an idea of what sort of contract he'd be looking for.

Would anybody want to take Ligtenberg or Adams?

The best move the Jays might be able to make is to call Larry Dierker or Davey Johnson and ask if they'd be interesting in managing again.

Well I think the first thing the Jays should do is start freaking playing Catalanatto, Hinske and Phelps every night no matter what the handedness of the pitcher. And just see what happens.

I know it's been a common topic around here lately, but it makes my blood boil. If they lose games, that's fine. But you at least got to put your best guys in the lineup on a regular basis. Normally I dont mind Carlos Tosca I actually think he's a pretty decent manager, but the obsession with L/R matchups drives me insane.

Hentgen: Of all the nights this could have happened, why did Jon Miller pick tonight to wear a bikini?

Do they blow it up, play the prospects, trade whatever spare parts they can for more prospects and push back the plans to contend another couple years while the young guys develop?

What you're missing here is that the plan all along was to contend in "another couple years". I've never heard Ricciardi name anything earlier than 2006 as a target for contention. When things were going well last year he admitted that they may be a little ahead of schedule, but still said "2006", and now we see that he was right to be cautious.

As for blowing it up, no, I don't think I do anything drastic. Who's currently in the (healthy) starting lineup that doesn't have a future with the team?

- Delgado may or may not, but even if he was playing well he'd be next to impossible to trade given the dollars and the no-trade clause; it's also not set in stone that he cannot be re-signed.
- Catalanotto in my mind is a good 1st base / DH option for next year. I'd do the research on what he'll cost and what the alternatives are. I suspect the conclusion will be that Cat will be good value, so I keep him.
- Zaun should not be the #1 over Cash, but he's a good backup and won't net anything significant in a trade
- Hentgen is probably gone next year, but he doesn't have trade value and there are no prospects ready to step into the rotation

At this point, the only changes I make are to play Cash as the #1 catcher and Phelps as the DH 5 or 6 days a week. I guess it's also a change that Berg, Gomez, Menechino, and Clark should be played as the backups that they are. Berg and Clark are the ones I punt when I need roster space.

Of course i wish I had the link, because its a matter of I said you said, but I remember JP saying depending on the pitching contention could come in 05, 06 or 07, he was pretty general about the whole thing. In other words, we will contend sometime soon. My problem is, I thought ever team tried to "contend" now.

Face it, it's a rotten month in a rotten season. But don't get so down. You know how many free agents Boston will have in the off season, they won't be the same next year. And NY, well... we always have the Wild Card (but Brown is fragile and Sheffield is looney toons and Giambi's rotting himself with steroids and Huckaby fixed Jeter good).

The first thing to realize is that, as with most struggling teams, there's nothing to "blow up". The only players that would bring real value back are Halladay, Lilly, Batista and Wells and given their salaries there is no way any of those guys is moving. Even Delgado won't bring much because of his demand for a contract extension with any waiving of the no-trade. F-Cat could be moved for something but the returns for an injury prone player that is a free agent at the end of the year and is stretched to play any defensive position are likely to be pretty small. Speier might be moved but as we saw last year for the first time, moving relievers at the deadline didn't produce large returns. Other than prospects there's nothing else to move. People are dreaming in technicolor if they think that Zaun will return them anything other than about a fringe prospect. What could you get for Phelps right now? Other than shuffling around the periphery, trades won't happen.

Playing prospects would be the normal route to go but other than Rios who is already here what else can you do? You could jettison Towers or Hentgen (either one it doesn't matter both are likely toast at the end of this year) and bring up Bush. That's about it. Quiroz is hurt and isn't ready. Gross can only play DH so he would force Phelps to sit and he's done nothing to deserve promotion anyway. You could bring up Adams but you would be forced to sit Hudson or Woodward and that would force the offense to take a step back. There isn't any other near major league ready prospect.

You could fire the manager. As I said yesterday, I'm not his biggest fan when it comes to in-game strategy but I think he deserves credit for motivating the club. To be frank, when I look at the line-up that has gone out most nights I can't honestly say that I think this team's record is worse than it should be. I think Tosca should stay till the end of the season.

That's about it. Otherwise you just have to sit tight.

My prediction of what will happen:

Before the deadline:
- Some waiver wire type outfielder(s) will be brought in to fill the gap
- Bush gets brought up and Towers gets jettisoned
- Speier gets traded for a prospect (not a top one)
- if the team is in last place by 5+ games at the break (a distinct possibility) Tosca gets the ax as the "fall guy"

Hentgen: "And to think I had an offer from Detroit ..."

Hentgen: It's only a dream, it's only a dream, it's only a dream...

YOu mean we wont be getting Josh Beckett for Greg Zaun?

I still think that with Zaun hitting .330 (obviously not going to continue but he really hasn't been that bad of a hitter in his earlier career and he is a switch hitter) the Jays could get a fairly good prospect if they throw in a mid-level prospect like JF Griffin or Chad Pleiness. The Marlins are desperate for a catcher and have been known to overpay at times. Estalella is serviceable for the Jays needs. There has to be a reason why the Jays are holding onto three catchers right now.

For those who are wondering, there will be a minor-league update today, but it's been delayed. I'll have it up asap.

We won't be getting Jeremy Hermida or Josh Willingham even if we threw in JFG, who loses a fair amount of his remaining value if he switches to an NL team. I doubt we'd get them even for Zaun, Pleiness and JFG.

I'm an unpaid apologist, dp. The team is in very, very capable hands, and thank goodness there won't be any panic moves. J.P. will stay the course -- he's been way ahead of schedule on what he was hired to do, until the unlikely events of the last 2 1/2 months have caused some folks to lose sight of the big picture. Larry Dierker, Davey Johnson or the ghost of Casey Stengel couldn't manage the current roster to a championship; not many teams can play up to expectations with their #3 and #4 hitters (who happen to be among the ten best players in the league) on the DL.

Tosca's had his detractors since Day One, most notably that renowned philosopher Raul Mondesi. Around here, he gets ragged on a lot for his obsession with platoon matchups, but very few of the impatient critics ever really put themselves in his dugout, they just point fingers. He's not playing Strat, he's managing 25 humans. One of them, Catalanotto, has a long history of injuries including a wonky back, and has just returned from a DL stint for a bad leg. Knowing that the guy can't play every day, Carlos chose to rest him against a southpaw last night. The skipper also played an educated hunch because Berg was familiar with Rueter.

Yes, I would prefer to have a taller, younger, faster player with more power as Cat's platoon partner, and so would Tosca, I imagine. If there is any possible way to replace one of Berg, Menechino or Gomez with someone like that, I'll be happier. In anticipation of someone suggesting Jayson Werth would fill the bill, I'll say two things -- Werth wasn't happy as a backup, and turning him into Frasor was a brilliant move. It will have to be someone else, and in the meantime, it's Berg.

The bottom line is, the Jays are decimated, and last night, they were demoralized. They will need some fantastic pitching performances to play .500 ball over the next little while. We're in for a lot of low-scoring games, and when the starters stumble, there will be some blowouts.

There has to be a reason why the Jays are holding onto three catchers right now.

Marc, Estalella isn't available to catch; he's temporarily limited to pinch-hitting because of a leg injury, and they want an extra bat on the bench while playing in NL parks. Once they get back from Puerto Rico, if Bobby is healthy, they can consider trading Zaun.

Yes, I would prefer to have a taller, younger, faster player with more power as Cat's platoon partner.

Jayson Werth would have capably filled that role.

I think it's bit generous to characterize the Frasor/Werth trade as "brilliant". Perhaps Werth deserved more than 100 major league AB to show what he was capable of. Werth can be criticized for sulking about his lack of playing time, but the clock was ticking an he wanted a shot to play _somewhere_.

Since returning from his ST injury, Werth has been very, very good, both during his AAA rehab and in the majors. I hope that a few years down the road, this trade doesn't end up looking like Giles/Rincon or Casey/Burba.

Do they blow it up, play the prospects, trade whatever spare parts they can for more prospects and push back the plans to contend another couple years while the young guys develop? Or do they step things up, hoping their luck will even out, by trading a few of those developing, not quite major-league-ready players for a big bat and/or arm that can help right away?

What does help mean in this circumstance...

as I see it, the no one the Jays bring in this year that isn't here in 2006 will "help" unless he is mentor material... (I really liked Mike Bordick, for instance)

All that matters is the development of these guys... I have reconsidered my dumping on not playing Phelps... If JP came out and said that they have high plans for Phelps, and he is on the curve, right where he is supposed to be, and that does NOT include fielding right now... then I'm ok with Clark or Berg or bringing back Tony Fernandez at first... Same for Rios and Gross and Adams, and everyone else...

DO NOT RUSH THEM... Challenge them and get them on track for 2006...

the PROBLEM is, how do you sell tickets in the meantime???

the PROBLEM is, how do you sell tickets in the meantime???

Seriously. I'm having a hard time getting excited about this team, and I'm usually fanatical. Mind you, I've been to 23 games this year, which is like two out of every three, but last year I was so into it I made it to every game. . . this is just a demoralizing season.

Bah.

Word is that the Orioles are looking for righthanded relief. Is there any chance they'd take back Ligtenberg?

http://www.cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/7428610
One of those reputable New York dailies is reporting that Hidalgo to the Mets is a done deal. Damn, if only I'd had the roster spot to hold onto Jason Lane in the BBFL. COMN

The Orioles (according to Baltimore local papers) said Ligtenberg had an attitude problem and was a bit of a cancer in the clubhouse, so I doubt they would take him back.

I think Speier will be OK once he gets back into a regular routine. I'd love to see Adams jettisoned though. He looked horribly overweight in April and doesn't look that much better now.

I never thought Zaun would score a bit-time prospect (Hermida) or player (Beckett) but I still think they could score someone of interest if the team was desperate enough and the Jays had a prospect to throw in.

As for stemming the bleeding, the Jays could consider veteran Darren Bragg, who is currently playing AAA for the Yankees and can play all three outfield spots, solid onbase skills and leadership skills and has played on winning teams. He also has an out-clause in his contract if he's not called up by the end of June.

Larry Dierker, Davey Johnson or the ghost of Casey Stengel couldn't manage the current roster to a championship

That's a bit of a strawman argument, isn't it? Nobody's suggesting Tosca be fired because the Jays aren't in first place. I didn't expect - though I certainly hoped for - the Jays to beat out New York and Boston.

The best you can say about Tosca is that he's held the team together. Tough job, true. But he's hardly getting the team to excel. Yes, injuries suck, but the healthy players aren't doing so well, either. Nobody's really exceeding expectations, and quite a few are underperforming. Tosca manages his bullpen like he's pulling names out of a hat (and Terry Adams' name seems to be in there every night). The offence is getting shut out by the likes of Kirk Rueter and Steve Sparks. It seems like every game there's a fielding or baserunning gaffe.

Are players demoralized? I'm sure they are. But isn't that supposed to be Tosca's greatest asset - keeping players motivated and focused?

I have nothing against Tosca personally. He seems like a good guy. I'm sure he'd make a great bench coach, and would be invaluable as a manager in the minors. But the Jays are stalling out under him, and eventually the blame has to get back to him. This might not be a playoff ball team, but it sure as hell shouldn't be a last place one.

As for stemming the bleeding, the Jays could consider veteran Darren Bragg, who is currently playing AAA for the Yankees and can play all three outfield spots, solid onbase skills and leadership skills and has played on winning teams. He also has an out-clause in his contract if he's not called up by the end of June.

Bragg, if I recall correctly, bats lefthanded and has a pretty huge platoon split. We've all see how horrible the Jays RHB lineups have been lately, so I suspect that if the Jays opt to trade for a stopgap OF, he will be righthanded.

Surely the Twins could be convinced to part with one of Cuddyer, Ford, or Restovich?

Maybe Marcus Thames?

Here's five off the top of my head:

Hentgen: If I cant see the homeruns, they dont count right?

Hentgen: I know this is San Fran, but do those guys have to do that right in the stands??

Hentgen: What would Judge Reinhold do in this situation...

Hentgen: I can barely see homeplate from here. I knew I should't have taken Miller's bet to pitch from the outfield.

Hentgen: GET OUT OF MY HEAD DEAN!! GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!


Hentgen: Hentgen for closer eh?..... Maybe I should look into that.

The Twins turned down a lucrative trade for Lew Ford in the off-season even before his huge offensive output in the majors, so I doubt they would trade him but he sure would be a great guy to get! I'm pretty sure they shot down a fairly good player for Restovich too early in the season but I can't for the life of me remember who it was (a pitcher I think)... Cuddyer would be the most likely but he can't play centre...

Thames is most likely a AAAA player... Too good for AAA, not good enough for the majors.

Who is this Crusty Old Dean?

Do you mean who is the man in that picture, or who is the legend of the Crusty Old Dean and what is its genesis (tm) ?

The Orioles (according to Baltimore local papers) said Ligtenberg had an attitude problem and was a bit of a cancer in the clubhouse, so I doubt they would take him back.

I'd read this too in a ESPN column. It was one of those joke columns like a Master Card ad. It went something like...number of seconds from the start of spring training before Kerry Lightenberg complained: 1.

I it seems amazing that Werth seemed like a spare part in ST. Damn you Pond for your flash of briliance.

I have to agree with Daryn, somewhat, in that you can't run out a terrible line up claiming it will be glorious in 2006. We're all fans so we're willing to look at the long term picture but stories about the 'woeful' Jays are already appearing. The crowds will be thin.

FWIT, I don't think Tosca should be fired, that they should start trading prospects for Encarnacion or that the Jays are screwed. They just need to start the best players all the time and to start seasoning the prospects in low risk situations. Why not bring up Gross to DH against Tampa. Give him a taste. It'll a least keep our interest up. As I've said before, I will no longer spend a full three hours of my time watching scrubs play.

who is the legend of the Crusty Old Dean and what is its genesis (tm) ?

Phil Collins is the Crusty Old Dean.

Damn, if only I'd had the roster spot to hold onto Jason Lane in the BBF

Christian-
me too. but he wasn't playing at all, not even 1/4 time, which I counted on when I drafted him.

Seems like everyone I thought would be a sleeper type or good rookie in '03 has hit well in '04. I drafted JD Drew. Overbay, Choi, Craig Wilson (who was constantly frustrating- never played or pinchhit b/c he was the backup C). I'm waiting for Brandon Phillips to go on a tear too...

Coach:

I'm an unpaid apologist, dp
That's even worse. At least if you were being paid, you'd have a decent excuse :>

Ryan said it better above, but I'll restate- if Tosca is so good at getting the best out of his players, why are they performing so bad? Dave Berg's even better than he's showed. Hinske's making a lot of money and not showing anything. Phelps was supposed to be a fine hitter, at least league-average DH, and he's traded hitting skills with Cesear Izturis. You can blame the players all you want, but like you said, they're human beings, and maybe they're not matched up with the right other human beings to maximize their performance. This level of play should be unacceptable.

And the problem with Berg is that he's been "that guy" for a couple of months now. He's totally redundant with all the middle infielders on the roster, and hits so poorly he shouldn't even know what an outfielder's glove looks like.

Werth does look like a perfect fit right now. Had the Jays/JP known they were going to have all these injury problems, I'm sure they'd have held onto him. I thought the trade was a mistake regardless, but I understand the thinking at the time. Incidently, he wouldn't look bad as the DH in place of Phelps, but I don't think many people would've bet on Josh's total and complete collapse this year.

But they may have their solution- with the Mets trade for Hidalogo (which is great, BTW- we Mets fas will hopefully get Hidalgo and Reyes into the linup in the same week, which means Todd freaking Zeile won't be our staring freaking third baseman anymore) , one of Shane Spencer, Karim Garcia, Eric Valent, orGerald Williams (don't laugh, Gerald "Ice" Williams has been our starting RF for the last week) should be available. l'd guess Spencer or Valent, unless the Mets decide to hang onto them in the minors as Cliff Floyd insuance. I wouldn't mind seeing one of those guys as a Jay until Vern gets back- Valent in particular has looked OK this year and is still young enough to develop a bit.

Investigate any posts by me in

http://www.battersbox.ca/archives/00001902.shtml

and

http://www.battersbox.ca/archives/00001908.shtml

for the slow building origins of the ultimate Blue Jay nemesis, the Crusty Old Dean.

Whose original begining came as innocently as this

"#190214 Posted 06/08/2004 04:04 PM by Jobu:
As always, me, THE HAMMER and THE HENTGEN and my LOSER FRIENDS will see you in 518.

#190215 Posted 06/08/2004 04:08 PM by Thomas:
What about your loser principal?

#190216 Posted 06/08/2004 04:32 PM by Jobu:
I dont have a loser principal anymore, I guess technicaly I could invite my loser dean, but I doubt they'd go.

#190217 Posted 06/08/2004 05:06 PM by Craig B:
Lousy dean! We'll prank you good!"

and evolved into this:

"Dean now being my nickname for any magical invisible forces who try to impede the Cheer Club or Blue Jay support.... skydome staff, TV crews, crusty old fans... you name it, they're all the Dean's minions. Wait till my bra-bomb goes off the next game. (Double Kudos to who gets that reference)"

and eventually began to take form in this evil manifistation of anti-blue-jay-agenda

The problem with getting rid of Tosca right now is that with the injury problems the new manager is destined to fail over the next 30 days or so. Secondly, it doesn't matter for this year if you get rid of Tosca. Will winning 80 games versus 70 (and no study I've ever seen on managers has ever suggested that the difference was that many games) make any difference this year? No. Why not make the change in the offseason when you have time to make a proper and well researched choice? There are likley to be more candidates in the offseason who are prepared to take the job on as well.

The Jays have played 65 games in 2004, yielding a record of 28-37.
On June 10, 2003, the Jays had played 65 games, and were 35-30.

After 65 games in 2003, the Jays had scored 407 runs, compared to 268 in 2004. Consversely, run prevention has improved, from 361 to 320.

This year's pitching combined with last year's hitting (and with the exception of Shannon Stewart, all of the personel required for the fantasy are under Jay control), would, after 65 games, have scored 407 and allowed 320. That differential would yield a 40-25 record, putting us three games behind the Yankees and in possession of the Wild Card slot.

If the stars can align properly (and again, the personel is largely in place for that), then this team can be very freakin' good.

Have faith, people.

Will winning 80 games versus 70 (and no study I've ever seen on managers has ever suggested that the difference was that many games) make any difference this year?

No, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about doing something to get the young guys back on track. Maybe firing Tosca's not the answer, but something isn't working with these guys and it iis important to figure out what. Right now it seems like they're rewarding or at least ignoring failure because they've got no other options, and that's not encouraging...Phelps, Hinske, Vern and Delgado have all underperformed this year. At some point, you have to question the effectiveness of the coaching.

Look, this is really important to me- for me to have any shot in Alomar this year, Phelps needs to get it going. If it takes a ritual scarifice, then so be it...

Hentgen: NO!, I won't see the light!

Hentgen: "I can't believe I let Justin Miller tattoo 'I love Terry Adams' on my butt".

Ryan said it better above, but I'll restate- if Tosca is so good at getting the best out of his players, why are they performing so bad? Dave Berg's even better than he's showed. Hinske's making a lot of money and not showing anything. Phelps was supposed to be a fine hitter, at least league-average DH, and he's traded hitting skills with Cesear Izturis. You can blame the players all you want, but like you said, they're human beings, and maybe they're not matched up with the right other human beings to maximize their performance. This level of play should be unacceptable.

Last I checked, Tosca was not the batting coach...if there's a coaching issue, the problem is with Barnett, not Tosca.

Tosca won't be the manager next year and the new manager will choose his own support staff. The Jays will choose someone new over the winter. My reasons:

1) Two slow starts after lacklustre ST.
2) Show fans that we're a better team and look at the improvements.

Thames is most likely a AAAA player... Too good for AAA, not good enough for the majors.

That's quite possible, but how do you know who is an AAAA player until the player has been given a good shot to succeed at the MLB level? Sometimes I think just because players aren't considered premium prospects, they get written off too early and just bounce around in AAA. A number of these players are likely Quad-A players, but a similar number could likely become effective MLB players (even in a reserve or platoon situation), but are simply never given an opportunity.

Reed Johnson is a great example of someone who, if things had played out slightly differently, could well still be sitting in AAA without any forseeable MLB future. I think the Jays would have given Reed an opportunity soon enough due to his defensive skills, his attitude and hustle and because he's fairly young. However, if Johnson was 30 and could only play LF adequately he might still be sitting in AAA, despite proving himself as big league hitter.

Toronto, beset with injury problems and not contending this year, has the perfect opportunity to give some of these players a shot. If they work out than you have another asset, quite possibly at a low cost, that you can use in the future. If they don't, well they won't be much worse than the other options we have and nothing is really lost overall on the season.

This year's pitching combined with last year's hitting (and with the exception of Shannon Stewart, all of the personel required for the fantasy are under Jay control), would, after 65 games, have scored 407 and allowed 320. That differential would yield a 40-25 record, putting us three games behind the Yankees and in possession of the Wild Card slot.

If the stars can align properly (and again, the personel is largely in place for that), then this team can be very freakin' good.

Thank you. Thank you very much. I still believe that when the time comes this team will contend. It's just so difficult to remain positive when injuries are so out of control. Even with injuries the Jays are but 1 game under .500 since May 1st. With the amount that Berg, Clark, Gomez, Zaun and Menechino have been playing and with Rios being forced up early that is still *outstanding* IMHO.

Once again, the Baker story is a bad one. Usually, I let it go, but I'm in a bad mood today, so bear with me:

It's not like the last place Blue Jays were much of a draw before Vernon Wells yesterday became the latest big name pulled from their marquee.

The Star just loves this situation. No longer are the Blue Jays called the "Blue Jays"; from now on they will be the "last place Blue Jays."

Josh Phelps and Menechino botched a rundown in the first inning and allowed Barry Bonds to scamper back to an uncovered first base.

I guess Mr. Baker did not watch the game, as the one to blame on this play was Hentgen. Phelps and Menechino did not botch it at all. That "uncovered first base" he mentions was not the responsibility of Phelps.

And, of course, this gem, to finish the article:
But a few things are clear now that the Jays — trailing the division-leading New York Yankees by 15 games — are trying to catch the fourth place Tampa Devil Rays with lacklustre lineups.

One is that U.S. media, so quick to jump on the hype of Toronto's 86-win campaign last year, realizes all those predictions of a 90 to 95-victory season this time were a stretch.

"They are now in last place in the American League East for the first time in seven years and that's all you need to know,'' San Francisco Chronicle columnist Ray Ratto wrote yesterday.

If "a few things are clear now", then why does he only mention one? It doesn't even seem like a clear thing either. The U.S. media is now suddenly only one writer in the Bay Area, because we all know the hundreds of newspapers across the United States have Ray Ratto as their only columnist.

Using Mr. Baker's logic, I could say that the Canadian media realizes J.P. Ricciardi is a racist bastard but won't admit it. Sounds absurd, right? Exactly. Who would take the opinion of one newspaper (one writer, in this case) and apply it to an entire country?

Not to mention the potshot the Star took in its "Cheek in need of a prayer" article, which was really uncalled for.

It's pathetic. I'm going to send an e-mail to the Star and see if I get a response.
You can't blame the headline writer this time, Geoff.

It's true that a lot of solid players get lost in the AAA shuffle but it seems like more and more veteran minor league players are getting a chance: Simon Pond, Ken Huckaby, Cody McKay, Eric Valent, Andy Green, Kit Pellow, Brendan Donnelly, etc... And there is always Baseball America favourite Graham Koonce. It use to be that players were written off when they turned 25 and hadn't established themselves.

I have to agree that I getting sick of hearing the Star's negative comments on the Jays all the time. Maybe I'm just biased... but the Sun isn't nearly as negative.

I wrote them an email last week complaining about their constant negative converage of the Jays. I was impressed that I actually got a response from the Sports Editor (or at least that was the address, I can only assume he wrote it) less than 48 hours later. I would encourage everyone to write the Star and let them know your feelings about their coverage. Maybe if they see that there are actually a good number of passionate Jays fans still in this city it might urge them to change the tone of their coverage a bit.

Hey! The Jays game starts in 25 minutes. I just read it's a 3:35 start. That'll kill the rest of the afternoon.

I would encourage everyone to write the Star and let them know your feelings about their coverage.

I'd do that, but their coverage got bad enough that I stopped reading it altogether as of last summer. So I can't really give them an informed opinion of how they're doing now.

As I said in yesterdays thread about the Star writers, it really seems as though they wont be satisfied until they run the Jays out of town with thier uber-pesimistic news stories, and then blame the casual fans for not being motivated to games.

Hentgen: Fake to third, throw to first...there's something else I'm forgetting.

Hentgen: See no evil...

Hentgen: I don't care where we are, Kevin, you can't use that to call for a fastball.

Hey! The Jays game starts in 25 minutes. I just read it's a 3:35 start. That'll kill the rest of the afternoon.

But it does mean that, for the first time for ages, I can watch a live ballgame. It's coming up to 8:30pm here so it's just right for some post-dinner baseball.

Shouldn't there be a game thread up by now...?

Hehehe, the mlb.tv video feed includes all the off-air comments by the guys who are presumably the Toronto commentary team. They were joking about the bald patch of some guy in the crowd.

I hope they say something really stupid thinking it isn't broadcast.

Yuck. Baker's article is brutal. When did he take over Griffin's job as columnist? I thought reporters were supposed to at least have a pretence of objectivity.

Game thread's up now, Jobu.

So it is...

Great first inning by the good guys, and now Roy takes the hill. Keep it up Jays.

At some point, you have to question the effectiveness of the coaching.

The staff that helped produce 894 runs last year hasn't changed, except to add Joe Breeden. The coaches haven't forgotten what they know about baseball, and have worked as hard as ever. From what I've seen and overheard, they are teaching every day.

If you think coaches should publicly berate their players, or try to intimidate them, you might consider Tosca and his staff too positive. There is nothing wrong with the coaching; they deserve accolades for helping guys like Zaun and Menechino to overachieve.

No matter how good your coaches are, the players still have to play. In April, several hitters were pressing, then people started getting hurt. It's become the Season From Hell, with no immediate sign of improving, so fingers are being pointed at the manager, the GM, the training staff, now the coaches -- all of whom are more disappointed than even the most ardent fan. It would be a shame if any of these guys paid with their jobs. I blame the Baseball Gods.

If you think coaches should publicly berate their players, or try to intimidate them, you might consider Tosca and his staff too positive. There is nothing wrong with the coaching; they deserve accolades for helping guys like Zaun and Menechino to overachieve.

Not sure I ever suggested publicly berating players. But here's my problem, Coach, with your reasoning. They deserve accolades for helping Zaun and Menechino, guys wth no real future on the club with virtually no franchise resources invested in them, overachive for less than 100 AB each, but shoulde no blame for the continued ineptitude of Phelps and Hinske, guys potentially crucial to the team's future (Hinske in particular, given his contract). Seriously, this thinking seems flawed- these guys, for whatever reason, aren't getting results, but they get a free pass because a couple of journeymen hit .300 for a month? What would have to happen for you to be critical of this "adminstration"? I can't see things going much worse- it isn't like a change of managers or in coaching- a well-thought one by your homeboy JP, who of course would make the right pick, could make this club play much worse...

We've seen it happen before- the Mets in '99 fired their hitting coach and the offense went on a tear- guys just needed a new approach; the current one wasn't working and it showed. When you have key guys failing as miserably as Phelps and Hinske are, you need to do something.

...no blame for the continued ineptitude of Phelps and Hinske...

Hinske and Phelps have both been trying too hard to make up for the Wells/Delgado power shortage. Josh is still in a funk, and playing sporadically in the NL parks won't help him break out of it. If he continues to underachieve, the team will have to make a decision about his future. It may already have been made. Anyone watching the games couldn't help but notice that Eric has played much, much better for the last three weeks. If you asked him, I'm sure he'd credit Butterfield and Barnett for helping him turn things around.

Tosca and all the coaches will be free agents at the end of the season. They will be evaluated by people whose superior baseball knowledge and experience I respect. We don't have any idea what other candidates will be available, or what opportunities may present themselves in other organizations. Changes may be made then, and if the Jays can hire even better people, great, but that won't be easy because the incumbents are very talented. Firing the coaching staff in June because your superstars are hurt and Josh Phelps is in a slump is ridiculous, and change for the sake of change is pointless.

Coach I agree with you, Hinske has looked a lot better in June and his defence this year has been great. The only way Tosca should or will be fired now is if he isnt listening to JP on what direction the organization should take. If JP wants Phelps playing first yet Tosca keeps putting out this Berg/Clark platoon then he should be fired. IF JP wants Phelps sitting then I think JP should answer as to why a team that is building towards the future has been sitting Phelps and Cash. At some point someone has to be accountable for these decisions.

I agree with Kristian. Who's playing Clark and Berg over Phelps? Next "Wednesdays With JP", that should be one of the first questions.

Hear that, Mr. Wilner? :)

Changes may be made then, and if the Jays can hire even better people, great, but that won't be easy because the incumbents are very talented.

Again, this season, we've seen Phelps, Hinske, Delgado and Wells all underperform, the first three massively. Anytime you want to stop making strawmen, feel free.

As for Tosca, his in-game strategies are baffling, and he's shown no ability to maximize his relievers' talents; last year the excuse was they didn't have talent, JP overhauled it in the offseason, so what's the excuse now? Either JP picked the wrong talent (thought guys would be better than they have been) or Tosca's used it wrong (picking disadvantageous matchups). I'm not sure how a team can perform this poorly without some blame falling to management...

If you asked him, I'm sure he'd credit Butterfield and Barnett for helping him turn things around.

http://www.cfmc.com/adamb/sabr/inout.htm

Which doesn't address the question: why'd he slump for 2 months coming out the gate?

Probably jobu shouldn't be using photos of actual people some of us may know--at least not in order to make them 'look bad'. The unflatteringly photographed man is a Dean, as it happens, and a baseball/Jays fan. He might even be on this list. Seems childishly irresponsible to do this to him, don't you think?

Don't listen to "Willy". He's the Crusty Old Dean in disguise!