Lineups!

Blue Jays	Giants
1B Clark SS Woodward LF Catalanotto RF Johnson C Zaun CF Rios 3B Hinske 2B Hudson P Halladay	2B Durham RF Tucker CF Grissom 1B Minor 3B Alfonzo SS Feliz LF Mohr C Torrealba P Hermanson

Howie Clark leads off with a ground rule double!

Let's get some runs on the board early and leave the rest to Doc.

Ground rule double for Howie to start things off. That's promising.

Submit your nominees now for any four-word phrase in the history of the franchise sadder than "cleanup hitter Reed Johnson."

GO CAT GO!

Cat takes a breaking ball down the other way and gets a carbon copy of Clark's double into the left field corner! Clark scores. 1-0. Good start.

"closer Joey McLaughlin Sr"?

I'll start:

"This is Fergie Olver."

Hey, do you radio listeners hear the Jays fan?

"Come on Reed, bring him home!"

Submit your nominees now for any four-word phrase in the history of the franchise sadder than "cleanup hitter Reed Johnson."

Blue Jay Dave Berg.

Doc will try to put his teammates on his back this afternoon and restore a semblance of hope to despairing fans. The Jays continue to have the most unlikely cleanup hitter in the majors, as poor Phelps is caught in the Interleague squeeze.

Woo hoo! Runs are all huge right now.

No Bonds today; those 2 runs might be all Doc needs if the defence holds up.

Submit your nominees now for any four-word phrase in the history of the franchise sadder than "cleanup hitter Reed Johnson."

War hero Tim Johnson.

Seriously, without Bonds, that lineup looks worse than ours, and their's is only down one great hitter, where ours is down 2. Saw the Giants at Shea this year when Barry had a cold, and they're a sad team without him. "Cleanup hitter Damon Minor" isn't much better than "Reed Johnson".

Really hoping Hudson develops this year into a #2 hitter. He seems close- a couple of minor adjustments...

I couldnt make out what the fan was saying, if there really is a Sparky fan in San Fran, that is fantastic!!

The shame is there's three things I wanted to see this series, and I'll only see one.

1) Carlos golfing a dinger into the water
2) Roy vs Barry
3) Roy batting

This game should be fun to watch.

Very nice play by Hinske on Grissom's slow roller. Last season, every time a ball was hit to 3B, I held my breath. It's very impressive hopw much he's improved with the glove.

Got to take our bright spots where we can find them these days.

About 2 runs being enough...Yeah, we're gonna need a few more.

*shakes head*

two walks both come around to score :(

Ahhh man....

The Dean strikes again.

Four words:

"Tom can't be here."

As I said last night "At least I have Pedro Feliz on one of my teams"

Wonder what Doc's pitch count is today, he's already thrown almost 30 pitches.

Tonight's starter, Tanyon Sturtze

Is this the same piss-poor ump the Jays drew on Tuesday who was doing the Elvis-Karate impressions? Because some of these bad ball calls remind me of him.

OK, more sad four words:

"Now batting, Danny Ainge..."

"Sundberg has a triple..."

"Kelly doubles to left..."

The BEST four words...how about

"Swing and a belt!"

Faulds tells us that Tom Cheek is back at home.

Reading between the lines, he sounds pretty ill :(

Who's this Hinske? Not only can he not field, he can't hit!

MLB has a tough one on their hands .......... which Jay is going to the all-star game?

Looks like it's out turn to put in a Lance Carter this year......

The saddest four words for anyone who loves playing or watching baseball:

"Today's Game Rained Out".

What's up with the weather lately?!? Where's the dry scorching heat that humans are supposed to be causing?!?

More four pathetic words:

"Hello, I'm Rob Faulds"

and

"Inside for a strike"

Doc is pretty obviously going to be our All-Star this year. If he has a winning record and an ERA under 4 its an easy pick.

I am quite pleased that Sportsnet is on mlb.tv

Why so, Alex?

If Vernon his healthy, he'd probably be our best guy to send to the All-Star Game. Otherwise, maybe Reed Johnson?

Thank Dog the O-God is back.

Maybe Halladay is a Delgado in disguise!!

There's a relief -- Doc avoids bunting into the double play and doesn't have to run the bases.

Andrew - I have no idea but after having to listen to the ChiSox announcers doing a donkey impression every time there was a Strikeout it is a welcome change and maybe a Jays perspective on the game instead of the other team perspective.

Doc is pretty obviously going to be our All-Star this year. If he has a winning record and an ERA under 4 its an easy pick.

Agreed. I think it's a no-brainer. I wouldn't care if he was 2-7 this year. He's the reigning Cy Young champ, and that has to count for something. I know I've said it many times before, but it's the ALL-STAR Game, not the GUYS-WHO-ARE-HAVING-A-GREAT-COUPLE-OF-MONTHS Game. Just my opinion, tho. :)

Go Hinske go!

I'd rather see Doc rest than pitch in the midsummer classic.

"He had Hinske in his sights..."

Man, if Hinske was barrelling down the line at me, I'd drop the ball, too.

Nice base-running by the Dog to get to 2nd. Not that it mattered, but still good...

It really feels like we're cursed this season. Even Halladay can't toss a gem when we so desparately need one.

An angry full speed Hinske is a scary sight indeed, I have no taunts for the catcher, just sympathy.

Im with Craig in perfering to see Doc just rest up for the All-Star game. Id say send Sparky or O-Dog.

Right now I don't see why Doc should go the all-star game.

Westbrook, Hudson, Mulder, Sabathia, Garcia, Schilling, and Vasquez should all go head of Doc.

With Wells injured he won't have the numbers. Reed Johnson with the way he's slumping doesn't deserve to go.

How about Jason Frasor?

Obviously we should send Berg to the all-star game. He's the player we can most easily afford to lose, should he injure himself there, right?

fyi: Joining Jerry in the radio booth today will be Jon Miller in the 3rd and 4th, Sabaen (Giants GM) in the 5th and 6th, and McCleary (Jays assistant GM?) in the 7th and 8th.

Lilly could theoretically make the team if he finishes the first half strong.

Right now I don't see why Doc should go the all-star game.

The guy's gone 41-14 over the last two years (47-18 if you count this year). Doesn't that count for anything?

I guess it depends on how much weight you put on past performance.

Without actually working out an All-Star roster, it seems likely that the best candidates from the other bottom-feeders are likely to be outfielders: Carlos Beltan, Ichiro Suzuki, Carl Crawford. Baltimore will send either Tejada or Palmeiro (lifetime achievement award.) Doc gives Torre a chance to get a pitcher instead of yet another OF.

I dont think Frasor's proved enough to go the all-star game yet. Plus this person will be representing Toronto to millions of fans who have written off the team, at least if Hinske or O-Dog go they can bask in their great defence, and if Sparky goes they can at least tip their hat and say "wow, that guy hussles.". Not that that counts for anything, but hey, he's a cool guy.

I agree, the reigning Cy Young champion should be at the All-Star game if he's healthy. Regardless of who's having a hot streak early in the season. Same with the MVP.

I'd love to see Orlando Hudson at the All-Star Game.

Let's stuff the ballot box.

Let's stuff the ballot box.

Im up for that! Im sure the Cheer Club could pull off some good organized fraud. Lets pull a Cinci!

I'm pretty clever when it comes to these things.

We just need to "acquire" a few hundred thousand paper ballots. Voting is pretty quick and painless if we use a drill press. :)

If we sneak into the 100's one game (ninja suits optional) grab as many ballots as we can find, entrust them to one person who constructs some kind of contraption that pokes holes in many ballots at once, the plan is crazy enough to work...

Leave distracting the Crusty Old Dean to me and my friends Carpet and Bridge....

Past performance should never count as a reason for the current year all star game unless it's a Commish pick for a guy about to retire. If that was the case it would be the same guys every year and other players would get screwed.

The every team needs to be represented should be scrapped.

BTW is Lance Carter still in the bigs?

I've always thought they should base the all-star picks on a two year period, or at least use performance since the last AS game. It's absurd that the voting starts so early and people are judged all-stars based on 100 PAs or fewer.

Hey, TV viewers, what just happened? Halladay hit the ball twice with the bat on the bunt or something?

Tentative All-Star roster

C - Rodriguez - Posada, Varitek
1B - Giambi - Palmeiro, Thomas
2B - Soriano - Belliard
SS - Jeter - Tejada, Young, Garciaparra
3B - A.Rodriguez, Blalock
OF - Guerrero, Ramirez, Sheffield - Suzuki, Beltran, Crawford

P - Mulder, Hudson, Vazquez, Rivera, P. Martinez, Schilling, Foulke, Halladay, Radke, Buehrle, Sabathia

I can't remember what the roster size is supposed to be. This is 31 guys and every team is represented. I know Nomar doesn't "deserve" to be there, but he's Nomar Garciaparra. He's an All-Star.

NFH, he did, but he never left the batter's box and the TV annoucers seem to think that it's just a foul ball in that case.

That's why I like the DH.

The Jays get a nice little rally going, but then the pitcher has to bat. How can anyone enjoy that?

He bunted the ball down towards the plate, it bounced back up, and hit his bat.. Umps called him out.. not sure what the rule is on that.

6.05(h) After hitting or bunting a fair ball, his bat hits the ball a second time in fair territory.

Over home plate is part of fair territory. The umps made the right call.

Yeah, the ball hit the ground and bounced back up and hit the bat - isn't that a foul ball if he's still in the box? Now I know what Hentgen was doing in that picture; preparing for a career in umpiring after retiring.

My game notes "Ground out to the Catcher" for Halladay. Must of really knocked the sh*t out of it.

Carlos Guillen has to be on the AL team. His numbers are flat out sick.

Ooops.. I forgot to add the part that says "The batter is out when...". But yeah, the umps got that one 100% right.

Are we about to waste another bases loaded situation?

Clark is having a good day. Thousand points of light boys.

"Carlos Guillen has to be on the AL team. His numbers are flat out sick."

My bad. Guillen sure does deserve to go, and he can be plugged in instead of any of Young or Tejada or Nomar (I have someone else from Texas, Baltimore, and Boston.) Jeter will be voted in.

Yes, we did :(

Does Roy have a major league hit? I am guessing no.

Out for hitting the ball twice... one of the rarest calls in baseball. I wish I hadn't missed it!

Believe it or not, the hitting the ball twice rule is so old, it's a holdover from cricket. That's an old rule. (I believe the correct scoring notation would be 2/g, something I fully expect never to write down on my scorecard.)

As for stuffing the ballot box : remember, everyone, you can vote up to 25 times at mlb.com.

Roy had a hit last year.

Past performance should never count as a reason for the current year all star game unless it's a Commish pick for a guy about to retire.

There's no right and wrong answer for who should be in the All-Star game, it's all a matter of taste. But I'd much rather have guys like Gary Carter (not an All-Star in 1978) in the game rather than guys like Biff Pocoroba (an All-Star in 1978), no matter what 200 early-season plate appearances say. But it's all personal preference.

Talk about bad luck; Halladay's left FOUR on base.

Craig,

Fascinating! Are the other weird ways of getting out in cricket also carried over?

They include - handling the ball, timed out (batter doesn't arrive at the crease within 2 minutes of the previous wicket falling), obstructing the field.

(Note that in cricket you are actually allowed to hit the ball twice if the second one is to prevent the ball rolling onto the stumps.)

Roy's first and only hit came on June 6 of last year in Cincinnati (Toronto's first ever game in Cincy), a leadoff single in the second inning off John Riedling to spark a four-run inning and take a 6-1 lead. The Jays went on to win 9-2, Roy went 8 innings and got 5 at-bats in!

"There's no right and wrong answer for who should be in the All-Star game, it's all a matter of taste."

Exactly, and has anyone ever defined what an All-Star is supposed to be? But I'm with Moffatt on this one. I don't think a guy who gets hot for two months but doesn't go because Derek Jeter was picked ahead of him is getting screwed. Show me a little more, and then I'll think you're an All-Star.

Thanks Craig for the info on Doc. I believe Delgado hit two homers in that game.

Out for hitting the ball twice... one of the rarest calls in baseball. I wish I hadn't missed it!

Did you see the Leafs game last year where Svelha got two minutes for Using Two Sticks? He picked up Belfour's stick to hand it back to Eddie and then the puck came to him, and Svelha totally brain cramped and played the puck with the goalie stick, while still holding his own stick in the other hand.

For those watching on sportsnet, there was a quite funny/disturbing cutaway shot after the third out of a family out pleasure boating in the bay getting attacked by an army of dozens of birds. Hitchcock must have been manning the camera.

CAT! CAT! CAT!

I think the rarest thing I can remember seeing in a baseball game is a player batting out of order. Thank you, Tony Fernandez, for that one.

Andrew, yes some of cricket's ways of making out are carried over (not forgetting two of the most important... being run out at a base, and the "fly out"... batted ball caught on the fly). "Obstructing the field" is what the baseball rules call "Offensive Interference", and the batter is out for that (see rule 6.05).

Unlike the Laws of cricket, though, baseball's rules provide about seventy-nine hundred thousand jillion and two ways of being called out. The Official Rules haven't been well-taken care of... I wish MLB would let the MCC take over and rewrite them.

Four happy words:

"Batting cleanup, Reed Johnson."

Go figure.

Sabean: I've known J.P. since he was an 18 year old college players, so I have a lot of stories, good and bad.

Brian, we wanna hear the bad stories! Spill!

Submit your nominees now for any four-word phrase in the history of the franchise sadder than "cleanup hitter Reed Johnson."

Free agent Carlos Delgado

I think the rarest thing I can remember seeing in a baseball game is a player batting out of order. Thank you, Tony Fernandez, for that one.

What happened? How did they fix it?

Sparky steals a base!! WOOOO!!

Go Mr. Clutch.

I really ought to sit down and read the official baseball rules. I did try once, but got stuck somewhere in section 1 and gave up.

Actually you shouldn't let the MCC anywhere near them. They would hold 500 committee meetings and end up changing some punctuation. Even worse would be to less the ICC (international cricket council) at them - they would hold secret meetings and rewrite the rules to be fundamentally unfair to teams with mostly white players.

(At the moment the ICC is changing the rules on bowling to allow up to 5 degrees of arm bend, or 10 degrees for fast bowlers. Outrageous. The ball has always had to be bowled with a straight arm and this rule just favours the chuckers in India and their allies, who currently hold political sway in the ICC. Far from being a gentleman's game, cricket politics is digusting.)

Cecil Fielder, Hanshin Tigers

Go O-Dog!!

Al Leiter, Blister Problem

There's a baseball fan living downstairs of where I work. He just came storming up here in a fury:

"Cerutti didn't know whether it was a 'changeup' or an 'off speed fastball'. Could these guys be any stupider?"

Players who deliver when it matters: Cat, Sparky, O-Dog.

now this is where Halladay finds his hidden Delgado power and whacks it over the fence!!

I thought the hardest thing to do in sports was pronounce "Honus"

Andrew, I can't even believe we're getting into this. No bowler's action is a "straight arm" action, such a thing does not exist. The tests done by Bruce Elliott at the University of Western Australia prove this conclusively... all the bowlers he has tested showed a bend of between 3 and 20 degrees.

Your desire to turn this into a racial thing (especially when Brett Lee the Australian is one of the main "offenders") just sickens me, to boot. But then race has always played a sick-making role in cricket, from the time of Ranjitsinhji through the current shenanigans in Zimbabwe.

Named for Hank, I can't remember how they fixed it. I believe it was during the 1990 season, and... well, a few brain cells have ceased functioning since then. Anyway, Fernandez simply forgot to go up to bat. The guy after him batted instead.

Another strange one came in a game against the Indians and Hargrove got his outfielders named Ramirez mixed up. One was supposed to DH, and one was supposed to be in RF. Hargrove wrote one thing on the lineup card, and did something else in the game.

Anyway, Gaston spotted the mixup (after missing Tony's screwup in 1990), and managed to get Manny excused from the game.

That's interesting - I always believed the rule was player could bowl with their arms bent provided there was no change in the angle during the delivery. I haven't paid much attention to cricket recently, but the idea that the ICC is fundamentally unfair to teams with white players seems unlikely.

Four saddest words in Jays history?...Leadoff hitter Dave Berg

Halladay's come up 3 times with 2 on. DAMN YOU NL RULES.

Named for Hank, I found it on Retrosheet:

9/23/1989 - The Blue Jays skipped a batter in the middle of this game in Milwaukee. After going through the order twice, Ernie Whitt’s third plate appearance was a ground out to end the fifth inning. Tony Fernandez should have led off the sixth but Kelly Gruber batted instead of his partner on the left side of the infield. After Gruber flew out no protest was raised. Fernandez never came to the plate in that turn through the lineup and finished the game with three plate appearances as Toronto lost, 4-1.

The other team has to appeal when a player bats out of order, according to MLB rules.

1987 3.5 game lead

Wells traded for Sirotka.
or

Roger Clemens: Secret Agreement

the Vincreadible Chulk coming up! Remember don't make him angry!

OK, I did the research on the missing Ramirezes and can report everything I remembered incorrectly. It was 1999, so Fregosi was managing. I think was Manny was listed as the RF, Alex was listed as the DH. However Alex went out to RF in the first inning (caught a flyout). After the mistake was spotted, Alex had to come out of the game, Manny went out to RF, and pitcher Charles Nagy had to bat sixth.

Craig & Fawaz,

You are both right of course, it's about a changing angle rather than a straight arm, and a certain small deviation is appropriate. I don't mean to offend anyone, Craig, but there no doubt that the ICC at the moment divides on broadly racial lines. Dalmiya has always played politics very well and sets the mostly white counties against the non-white countries most effectively. And while chucking the ball is an issue of both white and non-white players, it is the politics behind the rule changes that I was objecting to. The rules are being fixed to favour certain individuals, and the politics which allows that is because of racial issues (although there is also a commercial component). It makes me sick too. But don't blame me for telling it like it is.

Now pitching, Terry Adams

Hey Beav, what's up?

Here's something I don't understand---why, in the world of small sample sizes, are pitcher/hitter splits used at all?

Anyone else worried about this situation.....bases loaded and Adams up?

......and he walks a run in...

Well a walk is not as bad as a grand slam (yet)...

DAMNIT TERRY!!! CAN YOU JUST STOP BLOWING LEADS FOR JUST ONE FRIGGEN START!?!?

Adams walks in the tying run. And Tosca keeps using him in these situations why?

Chances of Adams giving up a Slam?

It's time to put Adams out of his misery (and ours). What a waste this loser is.

Well thank god for that....Shame he walked in a run but at least it was only 1.

Tosca is like the kid that continues to play with matches and burning his fingers when it comes to Adams...What a stubborn old fool he is.

All Star has to be Halladay. Wells maybe if he were healthy. Johnson can't hit righties at all and is really nothing more than a good 4th OFer. Certainly not an All-Star. I am just so sick of Tosca and his lineups. The Jays are not going to win this year, let Phelps play instead of Howie Clark. Let Cash play instead of Zaun.

I was thinking about small sample sizes and pitcher/hitter splits - back in the day, Earl Weaver tracked all that data on index cards and depended on it.

Obviously a small sample size doesn't indicate anything of lasting significance. I think perhaps that what pitcher-hitter splits tell you is simply who has the initial advantage. Over time, the numbers will surely even out, but at the beginning of the pitcher-hitter "relationship" it doesn't seem inconceivable that one of the two can start out with a big advantage. The pitcher hasn't found a hitter's vulnerable spots, or a hitter simply doesn't pick up someone's release point.

Once more with feeling: "Now pitching, Terry Adams."

Reed is certainly better than a 4th outfielder, dont go opening this can of worms again. Everything was nicely settled in a previous thread.

I wonder if www.reedjohnsonisnothingmorethanafourthoutfielder.com is taken.

Hey TC...

If you can read this, you aren't looking at the program monitor.

We need Adams to get hurt so Tosca won't be able to use him anymore.

I love responding to rhetorical questions.

Victor Martinez has to be one of the catchers in the all-star game. He's having a monster season.

Maybe Terry Adams can absorb all the teams injuries, thus actually giving him a useful purpose.

Interesting point, Magpie. It's something that never made a great deal of sense to me but I suppose that has some validity. Still, Chulk looked real sharp out there, LHB notwithstanding.

Also, am I the only one who didn't know you can delete your comments from the comment box by pressing the 'escape' key?

That's actually a good idea. Maybe there's some kind of mystic ceremony we can perform to transfer all the bad juju from the rest of the Jays onto Adams and Berg.

Sparky would be the perfect fourth OF if he'd just stop playing like he deserves to be an everyday player...

Can't hit RHP at all? Lifetime against RHP, he's a .279 hitter with a .348 On-Base, OPS of .731. There are worse guys out there..

Perfect fourth outfielder!

I was thinking about small sample sizes and pitcher/hitter splits - back in the day, Earl Weaver tracked all that data on index cards and depended on it.

I think there is some validity in matchups, because some guys, for instance, have no trouble with pitchers who throw a lot of sliders, whereas other guys have fits with them.

The problem is sample size, but there should be ways of getting around it. Suppose a guy (Bob) is 3 for 12 lifetime against Ted Lilly. That doesn't tell you much. But what if you took the 20 pithcers who are most like Ted Lilly (lefties with low 90s heat that give up too many homers) and see how Bob fares against them. I imagine that'd probably tell you something.

Sorry if that doesn't make sense.. I'm trying to work on three things at once. :)

Holy cow that was a good catch!

JW, mind your own business

JW, mind your own business

Tom...you might want to check you clip on the bumper animation...

How many times must he keep making catches like that till he gets the props he deserves? The love/hate for him is just kooky.

Moffatt, for some reason what you're saying reminds me of something Ted Simmons said about changing leagues. He said the new pitchers were tough at first, but after a while you related them to players you'd seen before: "OK, this guy throws his fastball like Don Sutton, this guy comes inside when he gets ahead..." And if you know how to hit Sutton's fastball, there you go...

Makes sense to me, Moffatt. Good idea. You could maybe use BB-Ref's Similarity Scores if nothing else is available.

Uh oh...

Look whose climbing into his comicaly large body armour. Maybe he'll get beaned, that'll make my day.

Barry Bonds...

Jay Spy is the only pitcher we have who has faced Barry without giving up a hit.

Man, as much as I don't want to see Barry hurt us and as much as I agree with the strategy, I hate this.

Moffatt, for some reason what you're saying reminds me of something Ted Simmons said about changing leagues. He said the new pitchers were tough at first, but after a while you related them to players you'd seen before: "OK, this guy throws his fastball like Don Sutton, this guy comes inside when he gets ahead..." And if you know how to hit Sutton's fastball, there you go...

Exactly. Earl Weaver thought that if a guy hit well against Nolan Ryan, chances are he'd do well against Jim Kern. I think Weaver was probably right.

So what you could do is have more refined platoon splits. So instead of having vs. L and vs. R you could have:

vs. L groundball pitchers
vs. L flyball pitchers
vs. R groundball pitchers
vs. R flyball pitchers

or

vs. L finesse pithers
vs. L power pitchers
vs. R finesse pitchers
vs. R power pitchers

The difficult bit would be figuring out which divisions are meaningful and which aren't.

I am in-speier-ed

Why, exactly, is Howie Clark
a) leading off? (with Hudson batting 8th)
b) playing first? (with Phelps on the bench)

My aunt, who watches all the games, says "the coach must really hate Phelps to call Clark his first baser." Aside from calling Clark a "first baser", she might be right.

Well this is bad.

Great strategy Carlos...TIME TO FIRE HIM NOW!!!

Well, this certainly is an afternoon killer....

Well, for the first time all season I'm turning the TV off. Need a break from whatever this is at the moment.

When is the bleeding going to stop?

Dropped 3/4 vs. A's, won 2/3 vs. Dodgers, dropped 2/3 vs. D Backs, and looks like dropped all 3 vs. Giants.

4-9 in last 13 games.

Does anybody here think we will still finish 3rd in the division or make a run at winning 81-85 games?

Let's pray Delgado and Wells comes back soon!

I love Michael Tucker's face in his Sportsline pic:

I need to walk away from this game now and clear my head. The jays should still bring home the Goulet this year, but until the stars come back, this is painful to watch. I would have bet 50 bucks on the Jays this game with Doc on the mound and that SF lineup. Good thing I didnt.

I still think we'll finish 3rd.

It's not this bad...

Keep an eye on what we are seeing here...this team is showing signs that they are quitting on Tosca.

Great strategy Carlos...TIME TO FIRE HIM NOW!!!

Which do you refer to, the strategy of walking Bonds (which seems to be accepted as a good strategy by, uh, everyone), or the strategy of having Hinske and Spier miscommunicate on who was playing the bunt?

Kenneth: What signs, specifically?

Man, despite the injuries this past month I've been able to watch the games and feel the Jays were playing some good baseball. That's changed in the last week. It's one thing for players to have limitations, but now they're playing like morons.

Moffatt, you're right as far as you go. I suspect however that sometimes it's not so much what the pitcher's ball does as how he delivers it? Example: Erik Hanson had very little in common with Nolan Ryan, except that their delivery, their motion was very similar. If you can pick up Ryan's delivery, you can pick up Hanson's.

Not the best example, I admit: its just two pitchers whose motions I remember as similar. Ryan was always hard to hit, and Hanson... well, not so much.

Oh, and AWWW CRAP!

I still think we'll finish third too, for the record.

Keep an eye on what we are seeing here...this team is showing signs that they are quitting on Tosca.

Like what? I'm just hearing it on the radio, so I don't see what you TV guys are seeing.

Yeah, they'll finish third. Their pitching is too good not to (and the Os and Rays is too poor to offer any resistance). It might be a sub .500 3rd, though.

I said in January, February, March, April, May, and this month that the Jays would finish third. July 1st, expect me to say "The Jays will finish third."

Ugh sounds like O-Dog tweaked something making that play :(

Anyone else hear that Canjet ad on the radio and think "GOING GOING ZAUN" right away? (You have to hear it to get my reference.)

Named For Hank, you're listening to the radio...you know what I mean? :)

Totally, Rob, totally. :)

I don't think they look like they're quitting. But they look depressed and discouraged. After all, "Reed Johnson, cleanup hitter." And even more outrageous, was last night's "Batting third, Frank Menechino."

I also think we'll finish third. But earlier in the season I thought it would be a strong 3rd, closer to 2nd than 4th. Now I think that us, Baltimore and Tampa Bay will be quite close together and way back of the others. I'd guess we'll just make it over .500.

We ought to be grateful for small mercies. For all that there has been an outrageous number of injuries, they have all been fairly short term as far as I recall (Myers & McGowan aside). It would be so much worse if Wells, Delgado, and earlier Halladay had been out as long as Myers.

I think the Rays are better than the Jays mainly because of Pinella. He won't let them slide and I expect them to finish above .500. They have some quality bats and speed. Zambrano, Waechter, Hendrikson, Brazelton, & Gaudin isn't that bad a starting 5.

Rally caps, gentlemen.

Chris: The D-Rays manager didn't seem to keep them above .500 last year. And the Jays starting five looks (is?) better than that starting five.

Somebody needs to ask JP if Phelps is in the long term plans.

It makes no sense for Dave STRIKES AGAIN Berg or Howie Clerk to take away AB's from Phelps if he is still in the Jays plans. At the same time if he's not in the plans it makes no sense to not give him the chance to showcase himself so the Jays could trade him. It's not like Clark or STRIKES AGAIN Berg are the long-term solutions and need AB's to get experience.

Anyone know what the percentage is for a walked leadoff batter scoring vs the chance of Bonds hitting a homerun?

He won't let them slide? How do they beat close throws at home?

Kenneth and Toxic Carlos are astonishingly quiet when asked direct questions.

hey statsboy whassup?

Well, that was a depressing game.

The jays pitching is superior to the D-rays no doubt. I just think that Pinella in year 2 has molded some of his players into his never-say-die image. Tampa always had talent with the exception of their pitching.

Entering this season: Carlos Tosca winning percentage .531, Lou Piniella .528. Which really doesn't mean anything, but what the hey...

The Jays still have all their games with the Rays to go. That might decide it. Unfortunately, the Jays reeked against them last year.

In terms of finishing .500 or 3rd place, remember 20 of the Jays last 70 games are vs. the best team in baseball.

I'm surprised nobody has offered Ron a wager, seeing as he's quite sure the Jays won't finish in 3rd (or have a .500+ record).

In terms of finishing .500 or 3rd place, remember 20 of the Jays last 70 games are vs. the best team in baseball

So you're saying that we have a perfect opportunity to gain 20 games on the Yanks at the end of the year? ;)

Maybe I just a sucker for a fiery skipper like Lou. Watching the jays show little if any emotion (the exception being Hinske & Hallday) when they lose bothers me. In contrast, the devil rays jump around like little leaguers when they score. They play excited. Thats encouraging these days. I picked the jays for second this year but will be content if they finish fourth given the circumstances.

Chris: You said I picked the jays for second this year and I think the Rays are better than the Jays

Will T-Bay be going to the playoffs this year?
Ah, I'm just kidding. You thought Tampa was the worse team before the season started, right?

The Jays still have all their games with the Rays to go. That might decide it. Unfortunately, the Jays reeked against them last year.

Yeah, but remember, we have the Opposite Jays this year.

Watching the jays show little if any emotion (the exception being Hinske & Hallday) when they lose bothers me. In contrast, the devil rays jump around like little leaguers when they score. They play excited.

Maybe they're not showing it on TV, but Vernon, Carlos, Reed, Eric and Orlando all get really fired up. They celebrate runs, look downcast at runs against.

I've read this "no emotion" charge about a trillion times this week, and I want to know if anyone saying this is actually going to the games and watching players, because I'll tell ya, it's precisely opposite to what I am seeing at the games.

Vernon Wells is out for a month. Jeez. Its going to be a loonggg year.

The season from hell, indeed, Mr. Wilner.

Can someone call in and ask about Phelps? I really want to know what's going on if Howie Clark gets to play instead of him.

This injury thing is really a little spooky. I've seen it happen to other teams, but in those cases it was always because they had a roster consisting largely of guys in their 30s. It was something you expected. And I expect the Yankees to have a number of injury issues this year.

But this team? OK, Myers is an old guy, and a catcher to boot. Cat has not been durable. Carlos has been very durable, so maybe his luck just ran out. And Woodward has always been a little fragile. And I guess pitchers are always at risk.

But still. All this just seems a little excessive...

So maybe the thing is to just get all the misfortune and bad karma out of way in 2004. Let us embrace the bad luck, in the desperate hope that we'll use it all up right now.

[i]It's time to put Adams out of his misery (and ours). What a waste this loser is.[/i]

I seem to remember that E____ L____ generated similar 'negative energy'. That 'energy' seemed to power him next year to a near-CY.

Secret to being a better MLB pitcher: Stink it up for ONE year as a BJ?

I guess Delgado deserved the MVP last year. The supporting evidence for such a claim is very strong for this year despite Carlos underperforming.

Hmm. Quiet game thread all of a sudden. Where are the "THIS TEEM HAS TOO FIRE TOSCA NOW!!!!1" people? :)

Let's just have a do-over.

Acquire some mystical healing potion, bring everyone back to full health, and just start the season again.

Halladay goes against the Tigers tomorrow to kick off 2004!

The Jays still have all their games with the Rays to go. That might decide it. Unfortunately, the Jays reeked against them last year.

The only good thing about the Jays bad season is we will get a decent draft pick. The oddball way this season is going the Jays will pound on the Rays this year and beat them out for 4th. I say if we are going to lose lets do it big time and have a good draft!

Not sure what firing Tosca would solve right now. Really we should be looking at trading for a hitter. The Twins have great depth at outfield and DH, Jeff Davanon would be a good fit, and either play Phelps or send him down to play everyday because his trade value isnt increasing on the bench and personally if we are building for the future then why do we continue to see a Berg/Clark firstbase combo?

The Devil Rays have weak pitching but right now with injuries the Jays have weak hitting. Plus I like some of the D Rays hitters, Huff, Crawford, Baldelli and soon BJ Upton. The reality is we have had bad luck with injuries combined with players like Hinske and Phelps not stepping up this year. Now we are forced to rush Rios, play Berg and Clark way too much and hope for the best. Fully healthy I still believer this team wins 86 games, finishes third.

why do we continue to see a Berg/Clark firstbase combo

Showcasing for trade?

PHELPS! We need somebody.
PHELPS! Not just anybody.
never seemed more appropriate.

What could the Jays get for Berg/Clark in a package deal?

I would be suprised, no shocekd if the Jays could get anything for Berg or Clark they have no trade value at all. Zaun based on his hot streak might have a bit of value but even thats a stretch. Let the kids play, Cash, Phelps, Rios, possibly Quiroz when he gets healthy, Adams, Bush at some point. I think Jays fans would handle losing better if we were playing at least prospects who will be part of the future rather than the Clark/Berg combo.

I dont think its Tosca's fault at all but I would be very suprised if he makes it to August as the Manager.

I seem to remember that E____ L____ generated similar 'negative energy'. That 'energy' seemed to power him next year to a near-CY.

I always thought it was due to mastering the cut fastball taught to him by Gil Patterson. I wasn't aware that it was the negative energy.

The only good thing about the Jays bad season is we will get a decent draft pick.

Yes and no. Many draft picks are made based on signability, not on talent. The draft order is nowhere near as important as it is in virtually every other sport.

I suspect Cash will be back to No. 1 once Delgado and now Wells come back. Playing Zaun with all the offence on the DL makes sense because the Jays do still have to try to win a few games (and score a few runs to do so) and Cash's real value is in his defence.

I tried to trade Berg and Clark for John Wasdin but got rejected in MVP Baseball!

Geez Ron, you mean Berg and Clark cant even get us John "Way Back" Wasdin?:)

It has been mentioned on this site a couple times that it is a crying shame that Justin Morneau (sp?) is not getting any playing time with the Twins.

What would it take for the Jays to get him? The more I think about, the more I think we need to make a trade like this now.

In my mind anyone that trades for Morneau could be doing a Brian Giles to Pitt. or Sexson to Mil. or Buhner to Sea. type trade. With the Twins seemingly ignoring him, it might not be impossible to get him.

I personally think giving up almost anyone (or maybe two) guys in our minor league system for him would be worth it.

Nolan you are right, Morneau has no business still being in Triple A but I highly doubt the Twins will or are looking to move him. I would love to see him on the Jays but the Twins would need pitching back and I am not really sure that we have enough to offer.

I don't know much about the Twins but who is holding him back? LeCroy?

They already started his service clock by playing him last year. I would give up any prospect in the Jays farm system straight up for Morneua. Heck I would send Rios and McGowan for him right now if I could.

Hopefully they keep him down at least so he can play for Team Canada later in the summer.

Four saddest words in Jays history

Interbrew buys Labatts, Jays

Hmm. Quiet game thread all of a sudden. Where are the "THIS TEEM HAS TOO FIRE TOSCA NOW!!!!1" people?

They were all the same person.

Interesting---Billy Koch is now a Marlin.

What could the Jays get for Berg/Clark in a package deal?

If you take Berg out of the deal I'll give you a bag of balls, but postage's one you. If you insist on giving me Berg I might be able to find a pair of dirty socks but that's about it.

Let the kids play, Cash, Phelps, Rios, possibly Quiroz when he gets healthy, Adams, Bush at some point. I think Jays fans would handle losing better if we were playing at least prospects who will be part of the future rather than the Clark/Berg combo

That's my feeling exactly. As much as I love watching the Jays, it's hard when I have to see guys like Berg and Clark every night. This season is already over, it's time to focus on the future. Not playing Phelps against righties makes zero sense. Sure, he hasn't hit well at all against them, but how can you expect him develop if he never sees them? The same goes for not playing Hinske against lefties, and making Cash the backup catcher. This team is not going to the playoffs. It's doubtful they'll get above .500. Don't field the team that gives you the best chance to win now. Field the team that gives you the best chance to win in the future.

I think this team does have to fire/demote Tosca eventually.

Or, even more importantly, hire a conditioning coach to help players avoid injuries. or eight such coachs.