Is Cleveland playing split squad games during the regular season?

When two tribes go to war
A point is all you can score...

Today's game is in Hollywood, huh?

Zaun will start most games, Cash is the backup. Estalella is "banged up" right now and will likely only pinch hit for the next week.

OK, what the hell?

We're carrying 3 catchers, one of which is an injured Bobby Estalella.

The only one with a future with the team, and the best defender among them, is now the backup.

Meantime, Josh Phelps, who we badly need to get going, or if we've decided he's not going to get it together, badly need to trade, gets benched in favour of Reed Johnson, who we all agree will be an excellent 4th ourfielder for the next 10 years, but nothing more.

When did Dusty Baker take over our roster management?

Nice work. The song was "Two Tribes" by Frankie Goes to Hollywood.

Jacko gets the obligatory 100 million points and a picture of a cuttlefish:

Ha! Jacko got screwed...that's the ugliest cuttlefish that I have ever scene.

Here's who should be jetisoned as soon as possible.

Bobby Estalella
Dave Berg
Alexis Rios (needs more seasoning)
Josh Towers

Replaced with:

Carlos Delgado
Orlando Hudson
Roy Halladay

I think File and Chulk seem to be competent so let's keep them up if possible.

Reed Johnson, who we all agree will be an excellent 4th ourfielder for the next 10 years, but nothing more.

621 career ABs (essentially a full season)
.298/.354/.433
103 runs
83 RBIs
15 HRs
7th in VORP among RFs in the AL (or 8th in LF if you prefer)
2nd among position players on Toronto in VORP in this season

So why am I agreeing that this is nothing more than a 4th OF? It looks to me that Johnson is at least an average starting OF.

I have ever scene

Opps, make that seen. Cold medication makes me goofy

Christopher keeps getting screwed out of his cuttlefish and the points. Please read his post closely.

Ha! Jacko got screwed...that's the ugliest cuttlefish that I have ever scene.

No! I got screwed!
Cleveland...Indians....Tribe...Split Squat...Two Tribes!!!

He's being too clever by half, because I still don't see the link to the song.

OK, what the hell?

We're carrying 3 catchers, one of which is an injured Bobby Estalella.

There's a bit of a crunch on the 40-man roster.

There's 25 active players.

8 are injured:

Delgado, Hudson, Quiroz, McGowan, Miller, Halladay, DLS, Arnold

The other 7 are:

Gross, JFG, Nakamura, Sequea, Pond, Rosario, Lopez

I suppose Pond could be brought back up, but that's about it.

Ah. Sorry, way too clever.

For being too clever, I'll award you 40 million points and a picture of game theorist John Nash:

Man, what a let down. I was so happy with my post that I almost left the office for the day. No way I can come up with anything more clever than that, especially since it's Friday.
I'll be big about it though. I've received cuttlefish in the past that arguably could have been awarded to others.

For being too clever, I'll award you 40 million points and a picture of game theorist John Nash:

Thank you.

Hey, you got a nobel laureate.. that's pretty good! Besides, no cuttlefish has won the Nobel Prize since Erik Axel Karlfeldt won the prize for Literature in 1931.

You know, if Catalanotto gets dealt to the Dodgers later on this season, then Frankie would indeed go to Hollywood.

Mike, I have to ask: where are you getting all these cuttlefish photos? Is there a gallery at www.cuttlefish.com? Are you a collector? Enquiring minds, etc.

The Indians' split-squad line was Repoz-like in its quality and obscurity. Christopher, I salute you.

I'm not opposed to keeping Zaun around; he has hit well, the pitchers (coincidentally or not) have settled down since he arrived (especially Batista), and he's really just playing the part of Greg Myers. I do think his bat will cool off, and Cash will gradually be worked back into at least a 50-50 time split. With Quiroz's development delayed by at least several months, the Jays will have to make do behind the plate for quite a while yet, and Cash's bat really isn't capable of 500 PAs.

Estalella is a bit of a puzzle, but I'm sure he'll get sent back down once one of the regulars gets back off the DL, Hudson most likely. All the injuries, both at Toronto and Syracuse, are making roster management extremely difficult for this team right now; this will all settle down in the next week or two.

He doesn't look like Russell Crowe!

John Nash is a scary dude

Hey, you got a nobel laureate.. that's pretty good!

I'm not complaining. I posted by "let down" post before I received Mr. Nash and the bucket load of points.
All is good.

Zaun's Catcher ERA is 3.69 over 197.1 innings, whereas Cash's is 4.87 over 281 innings. Could it be that Zaun is part of the reason the Jays are pitching better of late? Is he calling better games for guys like Bautista and Lilly? Is he helping Frasor and Chulk?
Because he's also hitting much better than Cash has this year (after week 1), I think it's a no-brainer to keep him as the number one.

RE: Moves. Any predictions on who replaces who?

I'm not sure the order of players coming off of the DL, but I'd guess that Estalella is the first position player to be sent down and Rios the second. Just a guess though.

where are you getting all these cuttlefish photos?

I can't tell you *all* my secrets!

He doesn't look like Russell Crowe!

LOL.

I'm not complaining. I posted by "let down" post before I received Mr. Nash and the bucket load of points.
All is good.

Yeah, I've noticed that we keep posting messages while the other one is writing one. We've got to coordinate this better. :)

Not to jump on my namesake, but hasn't catcher's ERA been relatively disproven as an ability? As in, haven't studies found it doesn't correlate well from year to year, besides the expected some catchers continue to catch really good staffs, and others really bad ones.

We've got to coordinate this better. :)

No Moffat, let freedom reign. Sorry, that was yesterday's focus.

It's too early for the mini scout so I'll ask, "Is Arizona a good team?" All I've heard of is the perfect game. Anyone going out to Sunday's matchup?

CERA isn't perfect, but the pitchers have given up far fewer runs with Zaun than Cash. Take a guy like Bautista. He's got great stuff, can come at you from a bunch of angles. Wouldn't a more experienced catcher be able to use him better than a rookie would? Same thing with Lilly.
All I'm saying is that it's hard to make the case for Cash replacing Zaun at this point.

... gets benched in favour of Reed Johnson, who we all agree will be an excellent 4th ourfielder for the next 10 years, but nothing more.

I don't agree with this AT ALL! He's the second best position player on the team right now and you don't make a player like that a 4th outfielder. There is nothing I've seen in the last year that indicates his performance is a fluke. I believe Reed is the real-deal: A solid starting outfielder, league avearge or above hitter and superb defender. He could start in the outfield on 85% of the ballclubs in the majors, including this one.

I'm not exactly going out on a limb or anything but I'm guessing the 3 catchers thing is just a way to showcase Zaun for a trade.

If they send Estellela down now, they can't call him up for another 2 weeks. Greg Myers isn't eligible to come off the 60 day DL for another 2 weeks either. That means if the right deal comes up in the next few days they have absolutely nobody to be the backup catcher.

Of course the may just feel that Estelella is a better pinch hitting option than Gross or Pond and they need an extra hitter for interleague play

I should add, they also risk losing Estellela on waivers should they sent him down. Unlikely, but possible.

I'd like to see them keep Estellela and trade Zaun off. He must fetch something in return.

Not to jump on my namesake, but hasn't catcher's ERA been relatively disproven as an ability? As in, haven't studies found it doesn't correlate well from year to year, besides the expected some catchers continue to catch really good staffs, and others really bad ones.

There's no doubt that the Jays pitchers are pitching better because they are just plain pitching better. Even when it has not been Zaun catching of late, they have pitched better than they did in August. That should kind of be expected given the fact that 3/5 starters began the season with the team as newbies.

Not to sound like a broken record but the roster crunch isn't all due to the injuries on the 40 man roster but its also due to the current infatuation with middle infielders with little offensive ability. Right now the roster has Woodward, Gomez, Clark, Berg and Menechino on it. Hudson is set to return. Six middle infielders is way too many, particularly when only Woodward, Hudson and Clark (to some extent) have shown any ability to hit. Woodward, Hudson and Gomez are safe. At some point you have to cut bait on at least one of Berg, Clark and Menechino and possibly two. With Adams and Sequea in Syracuse you can get rid of them right off the 40 man roster if you wanted to. None of those three are of long term value to the club (given Adams, Sequea and Hill) so you can axe them with relative ease. All of this makes jettisoning Harper to Milwaukee extremely frustrating.

All of this makes jettisoning Harper to Milwaukee extremely frustrating.

At the time Harper was waived, Woody was still on the DL. Unless you were willing to cut someone and recall Sequea, someone had to be removed from the 40-man in order to promote Towers. Harper was low on the totem pole, so he got waived.

Sequea has been pretty terrible this year in Syracuse, so maybe that's why he didn't get the call. Maybe it would have made more sense to waive Sequea instead of Harper?

Zaun's Catcher ERA is 3.69 over 197.1 innings, whereas Cash's is 4.87 over 281 innings. Could it be that Zaun is part of the reason the Jays are pitching better of late? Is he calling better games for guys like Bautista and Lilly? Is he helping Frasor and Chulk?

Prospectus has done several catching essays over the years and the basic conclusion is that the only difference between catchers is their ability to control the running game of the other team.

Perhaps a good pizza feed topic to discuss.

Jacko - no they didn't need to bring up Sequea up. While Woodward was hurt the Jays had Gomez, Berg, Clark and Menechino on the roster. When Harper was waived, Woody was already in Dunedin on rehab and the Jays knew he was coming back on Tuesday of this week. They could have cut one of Berg, Clark or Menechino and not had to call Sequea up. But to your point. Sequea would be any less effective than Berg this year?

The last two guys we had who were less effective than Berg has been this year were Ken Huckaby and Joey Lawrence. I don't think Sequea can be any worse than Berg.

Is it not a baseball law that annointing Zaun as the #1 catcher means he is about to go into a prolonged slump?

To kick it off, last night Zaun was 0-3 with an error, and he could have had two. The Dodgers were 3-3 in stolen bases.

A rare minor disagreement, Robert, about the extent of futility. I'd say that Huckaby wasn't as ineffective as Berg. At least Ken provided adequate defence at a key position. Maybe Dave could do that if given the chance, but instead he's played less than adequate defence at relatively less significant positions.

Now if they'd tried Huckaby in centerfield, I might agree with you.:)

Sequea would be any less effective than Berg this year?

Nope, I don't think that's possible :)

At this stage, Berg's survival might be purely based on the fact that he can be used as an emergency catcher.

My fearless predictions:

- Zaun gets traded to the Marlins as soon as Estalella gets healthy
- a trade for Cuddyer or Lew Ford (Rios gets demoted)

jc

So why am I agreeing that this is nothing more than a 4th OF? It looks to me that Johnson is at least an average starting OF.

From USA Today, Reed Johnson's 2004 splits:

Johnson VSL .345 .548 .385 84 29 46 3 1 4 16 5 11
Johnson VSR .280 .376 .338 125 35 47 7 1 1 15 6 25

This is more or less what his splits looked like last year as well.

If he's playing CF, I can live with that. As a corner OF, that's not good enough.

IMO, he needs to be platooned at least 50% of the time against RHP. Let him face craptacular righties, but send a LHB out there against the good ones.

I'm not exactly going out on a limb or anything but I'm guessing the 3 catchers thing is just a way to showcase Zaun for a trade.

That's possible but what's the market value of an inconsistent 33-year old journeyman with average defensive skills whose stat line is riding a hot month of May?

Zaun's a useful player and merits his spot on the Jays, but he's not worth much more than a fringe prospect in my mind. If the Marlins were desperate, they might be willing to overpay but I don't really think they would be at this point, unless a Ramon Castro trade happens first.

That's possible but what's the market value of an inconsistent 33-year old journeyman with average defensive skills whose stat line is riding a hot month of May?

Hint:

It's a lot higher when he's hitting .350 that it is when he's hitting .250.

No Major League GM is going to be fooled by 50 great May At-Bats, especially not when his career line is 251/338/375. As well, Zaun is hitting 219/324/281 in 37 plate appearances since the beginning of June. Most would be wary that he's falling back to earth.

What kind of player do you think he could fetch, Jacko?

Ricciardi apparently couldn't get anything worthwhile for Greg Myers last year, so I'm doubtful anyone will want to give up anything of value for Zaun.

And Zaun is probably the best catching option on the team right now. I really don't want to see any more Estalella appearances than are absolutely necessary.

Of course nobody believes that Zaun will keep hitting .350 but he has certainly proven himself to be a more than adequate major league catcher. That's something I'm sure a few teams could use. Package him with someone like Gomez (or a reliever) and you might get a very solid young player out of it. Off the top of my head the Twins (LeCroy just ain't a catcher) and Marlins (they've got Mike Mordecai on the roster) could both use a duo like that.

Whatever Reed Johnson will be in 2-3 years (regular player or 4th outfielder), there really is no question that he is an everyday player right now, bearing in mind the team's options. If Rios and/or Gross had been tearing up triple A pitching the first 2 months of the season, it might be different, but that is not the case.

One never knows. All Johnson needs to do to be a truly fine leadoff hitter is work counts a little more. He's 27 now, and might get that in the next year or two. Some players reach their peak after 27, and Johnson may be one of those.

Of course nobody believes that Zaun will keep hitting .350 but he has certainly proven himself to be a more than adequate major league catcher. That's something I'm sure a few teams could use. Package him with someone like Gomez (or a reliever) and you might get a very solid young player out of it. Off the top of my head the Twins (LeCroy just ain't a catcher) and Marlins (they've got Mike Mordecai on the roster) could both use a duo like that.

Ah, but Lecroy is the _perfect_ backup for someone like Joe Mauer, who's going to get most of the playing time in Minny. I'm sure Lecroy is capable of playing once a week, and content to play part time at DH and 1B when he's not catching.

The situation is a lot more dire in Florida where Ramon Castro has been stinking it up since the start of the season.

I'd go ahead and ask the Marlins for someone in low-A. Maybe Travis Chick, Adam Bostick, or Ryan Blake?

I don't think Zaun's short term value outweighs the long-term value of a low level prospect. The Jays might as well cash him in.

Ricciardi apparently couldn't get anything worthwhile for Greg Myers last year, so I'm doubtful anyone will want to give up anything of value for Zaun.

Zaun is younger (33 vs. 36) and is a switch hitter.

Ken Huckaby's adequate defence is one of those urban myths we hear about: Everyone said it was so, but there was not a smidgeon of evidence that it was so. There were the passed balls, wild pitches and bounced throws on steal attempts that finally earned his release - despite his status as Doc's "personal catcher" [boy, Doc's performance really took a hit when Huck was let go, didn't it;-)].

Zaun is younger (33 vs. 36) and is a switch hitter.

...and a pretty decent defender.

There's probably a good chance they wont get a decent return on Zaun and he'll stick around past the deadline. I just think that by keeping Estellela around they may be keeping their options open should an good deal come along in the near future.

*Warning: subjective argument ahead*

It may be coincidence that Batista has turned his season around with Zaun behind the plate. Who knows? I'd like to think that he's just settling down and finally getting into a groove. However, in his starts with Zaun I have seen him more willing to go outside the strike zone for his strike out pitches. With Zaun, Batista seems to be trusting his stuff more instead of trying to get strike three nibbling on the corners. It's worked, during these past three starts I've seen Batista get strike outs on fastballs way above the zone and breaking pitches in the dirt. He's made hitters look foolish. I didn't see this when he was pitching to Cash.

Open question: Is Myers essentially retired now? Do any of you think he'll play again this season?

Myers is Bobby Estellela waiting to happen. I think that he will be a bench guy, maybe sub in at first occasionally. Why would you get rid of Zaun. He is working for cheap, you have no long term commitments, and you are unlikely to get much in return. Myers bats better than he catches and since the bench is so weak, there will be a spot for him once some of the no hit middle infielders get cut. Berg has to be gone, Menechino maybe or they may send Clarke down again.

Reed Johnson, who we all agree will be an excellent 4th ourfielder for the next 10 years, but nothing more.

Reed is also a fan favourite - when I was in the "Puffer's Lounge" on the 100 level on Wednesday night, he made the great throw to second and all the people in there were talking about how much they like him.

Right now, when some people are referring to the "Who Jays", we need to give playing time to players that fans like who are also, coincidentally, often very effective.

Open question: Is Myers essentially retired now? Do any of you think he'll play again this season?

Done for the season? Yeah.

Retired? Maybe. I think if Myers wanted to play another season he could find a team looking for a part time catcher and DH.

This is total speculation on my part...

Done for the season? Yeah.

Do you guys know something about his injury that I don't? I thought it was a sprained ankle. Or are you suggesting that this is a Fletcher kiss off, sorry Greg the team has moved on so let's part ways and here's the money we owe you.

Do you guys know something about his injury that I don't? I thought it was a sprained ankle. Or are you suggesting that this is a Fletcher kiss off, sorry Greg the team has moved on so let's part ways and here's the money we owe you.

No insider information here, just pure speculation.

It's his age that worries me. The initial prognosis was 4 weeks, and that quickly changed to 2 months. He's nearly 38 now, and the human body does not heal up as fast as it does when you're 28.

Even at the tender age of 31, I'm finding that I don't heal fast anymore. Then again, I'm not a professional athlete either, but you get the idea.

If he does come back this season, I'll be surprised if he sees much action (if any) behind the plate.

Myers was planning to retire after this year in any event. I remember a short article a few months ago saying he had bought a gas station in his home town as a business venture for after this year.

I've missed him this year - it was fun watching him at the plate (less so behind it) - especially that in-the-park home run he had.

Um, any truth to the rumours that Phelps will get some games at 3B? Sounds scary to me.

The only time Josh Phelps should have occasion to be near the third base bag is when he is running the bases. Please say it aint so.

From CBS.Sportsline:

Eric Hinske, 3B TOR

News: The Toronto Sun notes Eric Hinske will share some playing time at third base with Josh Phelps.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Baseball/MLB/Toronto/2004/06/11/495293.html
Let me squash THAT right now. COMN for the Sun article that references it. (You made me read the Sun...jeesh...gotta wash my hands)

Here's the quote Sportsline probably misread:

"With DH Josh Phelps joining third baseman Eric Hinske in a platoon role -- left-handed bat Frank Catalanotto will get the bulk of the DH work -- the Jays have strayed from the path of development in search of some desperately needed wins. "

What Mike Rutsey meant by that was Phelps is now in a platoon with Cat, just like Hinske is being employed in a platoon with whoever Tosca feels like playing at third against lefties. He didn't mean that Phelps and Hinske are in the same platoon.

Thank god!

And you're a braver man than me, Spicol, for venturing over to the dark side.

...Reed Johnson, who we all agree will be an excellent 4th ourfielder for the next 10 years, but nothing more...

Disagree.

Niles suggested this to me last night, but it seems like a good comparo:

Reed Johnson = Eric Byrnes

Johnson might be better, but I think both have suffered from their respective organizations' blindspots to their similar talents. Only out of desperation did either one get a chance to thrive.

We might harp on the Twins for their idiot roster moves (and rightly so), but not even our beloved Jays and A's are free from making such mistakes.

Put me in the Reed Johnson fan club.

Look, from a practical point of view, he's not your beau ideal of a corner outfielder (uh-oh, is one of our cohorts from down the block going to go after me for my flowery phrases and rolling periods?) but he gets the job done just fine so far. Most teams in baseball have a starting outfielder who doesn't do what Johnson can do.