And my "surprise" nominee was only a Jay for, like, nine minutes -- but the surprise player of the last 25 years is Ruben Sierra. Didn't see that coming, for sure.

What about our old friend...you know, the guy in Chicago?

Mike Young has to be counted as a big surprise. I don't think anyone thought he would be as good as he's been the past 2 years.

The guys who have shocked and surprised me are (drum roll please):

Esteban Loiaza (CHI)
Mike Young (TEX)

Jeff Kent. I thought he might turn out okay, but I didn't think he'd be that good.

What about Jeff Kent? I hear he's done well since leaving the Jays...

Note to self: type faster next time. That is all.

Some of the names mentioned above are definitely up there for me. Another one would be Woody Williams. He's had a few very good years in the National League. I really didn't think he had a role in the majors as anything other than a league average (maybe) middle reliever.

Jay Gibbons. Even if he is on the juice I for one am suprised by his production the last three years.

I always thought Timlin was crap and he never seems to be that good against the Jays. However, his numbers are decent so he must be fine the rest of the time. Obviously, the names mentioned above are a bit more dramatic.

Although Al Leiter was here for years doing nothing and finally ended his Jays tenure with a couple "OK" years--who would have thought he would be still pitching today???

Also, by no means a star or even a regular, Tomas Perez has found a nice home in Philadelphia. He plays the role of reserve infielder well and has even developed a bit of "jack" in his swing.

I always felt he kinda got screwed here in Toronto.

Mike Sharperson had a 3-year, 900 AB stretch of 370ish OBP.

I was going to say Alan Ashby, but he actually had a decent age-26 season (754 OPS) before moving on. He had a couple of 800+ OPS's in Houston.

Rick Cerone had his "big" year (750+ OPS) for the Yankees, right after leaving Toronto. He spent over a decade stinking after that, though not until grabbing a bunch of George's money.

Pete Vuckovich won a Cy Young, albeit a pretty damned ugly one.

I think Jeff Kent is the Cadillac of this conversation, however. Not sure where the HoF Monitor places him, but no one could have realistically seen that career coming.

Cito Gaston, if no one else, might be inclined to put John Olerud on the list.

In addition to the guys listed, I'd say Woody Williams... I didn't see his success in St.Louis coming. That Joey Hamilton trade looked pretty good at the time.

I don't know about Kent ... Obviously I never expected this kind of career, but I was pissed when he was traded (yes I know it was for Cone). He worked hard, hit well, and played wherever he was needed with the Jays, and seemed better than Ed Sprague in every way. I thought he'd be a good .280, 20 hr guy for years to come. Actually now that I've written this, I guess he does win.

Big Cecil didn't do stink in a Jays uniform, then went and ate some sushi for a few years, and came back a home-run hitting monster.

I can't imagine anyone saw that coming.

Chris Carpenter may not be as frustrating as E----- L----- and it's early, but damn! These guys walked for practically nothing.

I'm not saying that the Jays could have kept them, but it's nice (or not) to dream; HLH, Carpenter, L-----, Escobar in 2004...

...E------ L----- would be kept in a box in the bullpen and let out only on every 5th day so he wouldn't irritate the rest of the team.

Big Cecil didn't do stink in a Jays uniform.

I don't think that's entirely accurate. The guy did hit 33 homers in around 500 at-bats as a Blue Jay.

The problem with Cecil is that the Jays refused to play him. They didn't recognize what they had. It reminds me of Brett Hull when he was with the Flames. Of course the guy isn't going to accomplish much if you stick him on the 4th line and only give him 5 minutes a night.

The guy did hit 33 homers in around 500 at-bats as a Blue Jay.

Yeah, he did that over a few seasons seasons so it didn't stick out at the time. The negative part was that he had an average in the .230's.

Yeah, he did that over a few seasons seasons so it didn't stick out at the time. The negative part was that he had an average in the .230's.

Good point. Not many teams in the late 80s would have a .230-.240 hitter as a DH, no matter how many homers he was hitting.

Not many teams in the late 80s would have a .230-.240 hitter as a DH

Actually, every team did. His name was Dave Kingman.

I don't think Olerud fits in this discussion. About half of his 2,000-ish career hits came for Toronto.

Chris Carpenter may not be as frustrating as E----- L----- and it's early, but damn! These guys walked for practically nothing.

To keep Loaiza would have cost the Jays 80% of his 2002 salary, the minimum they could have offered him. Naturally, he would have jumped at the $5M and there would have rightfully been howls of protestation. Someone figured to give him a $500K flyer and Kenny Williams just got lucky.

His numbers look decent this year, if not Cy Youngish. There are two indicators, however, that may portend trouble ahead: 12 HR and just 46K in 85 innings. That low K rate is especially troubling.

Chris Carpenter was under contract with St. Louis for the 2003 season, which he missed in its entirety. It's nice to see that he seems to have recovered after a year and a half's absence, but that was certainly a longshot. His K and BB rates are nice, but his HR rate (14 in 74 IP) is a cause for concern.

Who is that nutty control fiend with just 20 BB in 67 IP? Why, it's Escobar the Angel. Maybe having Latino catchers is the answer. How do you say "just throw the ball, meat" in Spanish?

I don't think Olerud fits in this discussion. About half of his 2,000-ish career hits came for Toronto.

It was sarcasm. I meant to suggest that Cito Gaston did not appreciate Olerud and didn't think he was much good. Pull the ball, Johnny, pull the ball.

Once the Mets told Johnny to just be himself, and hit doubles to the left-center field gap if he felt like it, he seemed to do much better.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bellde01.shtml
Derek Bell had more success leaving Toronto than I thought he'd have. I remember he was so highly touted coming through the minors. I don't remember too much about him, except that he was given about 5 minutes of air time it seems on my 1992 World Series video describing his walk before Sprague hit that homer...it was like, tunnel vision...
Whatever happened to Robert Perez? I thought he was going to be awesome.
I despise Al Leiter.

I agree with Chuck. Carpenter's cut his BB/9 nicely, but he's benefitting from one of the best defenses in baeball. He's not Curt Schilling or Javier Vazquez--those homers will start to hurt eventually.

Kent's got to top the lsit. He still ranks lowish in the HoF monitor, but come on! Two of the three best 2B of the 90s played for Toronto?

This game would be a lot sadder for Expos fans.

I'm a little surprised Cesar Izturis hasn't come up yet ... but it's way early, and his production so far at the plate, including his plate discipline, has been totally unexpected. And I don't think it'll last.

I'm a little surprised Cesar Izturis hasn't come up yet...

Who really thinks the club would be better off with Izturis? Michael Young, sure.

Chuck,

I should have been more specific - I alluded to the Jays not being able to hold on to those guys; I meant that there was no way the Jays could make an offer to Loaiza and offering Carpenter what he got from the Cards ($1 million/1year with an option, I believe) would have been irresponsible given the budget concerns and the risk attached to it. That said, Loaiza made peanuts last year and Carpenter's making $500,000 this year. Both are getting results and both were in the Jays' 2002 rotation.

Having peeked at the Jays' recent pitching, however, who cares about these guys? Best ERA in the AL in June (2.89) WITHOUT DOC; best in the AL East and 5th in the AL in May (4.34). ERA's a fantastic stat when it's kind to your team...

How about Cleveland's Casey Blake? He did hit one key, clutch homerun for the Jays in 1999.
I also think, after sucking it up huge for the Jays, David Weathers has pieced together a nice career as a dependable relief pitcher. Sure, he's not lights out, but he gets bonus points for longevity.

http://www.baseballreference.com/f/fieldce01.shtml
You were right the first time, Moffatt. COMN for Cecil's career line. Jimy Williams did not give Cecil the chance he deserved in 87-88. It's very hard for a young player to succeed in the pinch-hitting role. After hitting .269/.345/.560 at age 23, he should have been given the full-time job, but 'ol one-M didn't see it that way.

Morgan Ensberg meet Cecil Fielder. But, I did see that one coming, and drafted Cecil for my rotisserie team in 1990.

Justin Morneau meet Morgan Ensberg meet....

Remember when Ol' One 'M' used Gruber and Cecil as a rotating 2B/3B combo for awhile in '88? They'd switch back and forth depending on the handedness of the hitter. Then Jose Canseco got a double off a pop-up to the rotund second baseman and that ended that.

Guys, I don't want to be a wet blanket, but you might be policing this site a little too tightly. I don't think there was anything wrong with the message that 'Frank' posted. Yes, it was long and rambling, and yes, he may have some anger issues, but he made some valid points, too.

Let's try to keep this an 'open' forum.

It wasn't deleted because of the content. He posted it in two places, so I left it in the more appropriate one. I'd rather have all the comments on that issue concentrated in one thread instead of two.

http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
Trevor Miller seems to be doing a nice job with TB.

Steve Trachsel, the Human Rain Delay, has had some good seasons with the Mets.

Gotcha. Apologies.

For me, it's Mike Young. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any more. That's not to say the Jays haven't given up a lot of talent over the years, simply that with many of the players, you knew they'd be good eventually. The club just didn't have the time or the patience or the personnel to turn them into effective MLB players.

Case in point: Craig Wilson. He looked like he might be something good eventually but Gord Ash needed help at the major league level at the time (not that he ended up getting it). It's no real surprise that Craig is now a productive major leaguer.

Jeff Kent has exceeded expectations by a bit since he left but he looked very good during his time in Toronto, batting average be damned. Same for Cecil Fielder. Todd Stottlemyre was a classic case where the talent was obvious but the Jays didn't have the patience (or Dave Wallace) to wait for him to turn it around. You knew Al Leiter had the capability to be much better as well. It's a shame it couldn't have been with Toronto.

I think I'm more surprised by Jesse Barfield's lack of success in New York. His washing up at 32 was unexpected. I'm also surprised that Bob Brenly became a major league manager and a somewhat successful one at that. He didn't ever seem like the sharpest tool in the cookie jar. Er...you know what I mean.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=schwarz_alan&id=1818773
Good piece on Michael Young by Alan Schwarz over at ESPN (although it's not like Schwarz to use only AVG-HR-RBI to make his point--who does he think he is, Buster Olney?). COMN while you can before everything over there is for ESPN Insiders only!

for the reverse I would say felipe lopez, highly touted prospect ...... don't even think he's in the majors right now....

Dan Plesac is help. That trade gets made to look bad because of Carlos Garcia's collapse. However, just because the Jays gave away 6 prospects in the trade (only Wilson and Abraham Nunez panned out, I believe) and just because Carlos Garcia failed, does not mean that the Jays didn't do alright for themselves in the trade.

Plesac had some good seasons here, was a good influence on many youngsters in our bullpen and fetched Batista, Frascatore and Politte in seperate trades. He may never have resigned here if he hadn't played here before.

Dan Plesac is help.

No question, Thomas. But I think many would agree that the Pittsburgh trade didn't work out as well as most people had originally thought it would.

Since the comments section in the "Frankly Speaking" flamewar has been disabled (thank the gods and godesses), let me just say this ...

Andrew K., your "on-baste percentage" comment was genius. Top 10 all-time comments ever posted to Batter's Box.

That needed to be said. We now return you to "Didn't See That Coming."

I deserve a shout-out for the David Weathers one!!!
Plesac? He was already good in Milwaukee circa 1989. He didn't blossom post-Toronto.

Although Al Leiter was here for years doing nothing and finally ended his Jays tenure with a couple "OK" years--who would have thought he would be still pitching today???

He's still pitching well today because he had a million injuries while with the Jays and basically had a young arm when he was 31 years old and signed with the Mets!! Trachsel seems to have found his groove since he left Toronto. There's no doubt he should be on the list. Thank god he is not on the Jays though. He was so painful to watch.

Obviously one that stands out is our best friend Boomer (David) Wells. Last Toronto visit aside, he put together good numbers through his years in Detroit, Cincinati, Baltimore and of course New York. Yes, his name will probably be painful for Jays fans because, in some ways, his final arrival for Clemens marked the end of the Jays spending ways, while his departure for Sirotka hurt terribly.

I believe Carlos Silva was in the horrid Pittsburgh trade as well, so he should deserve mention as well.

I thought Benito Santiago was on his last legs with the Jays. Seems that he has had a million chances since.

Mike Matheny. Gold Glove? Ha!

Trachsel is only doing well in spacious Shea Stadium. I definitely am glad he's no longer in Toronto

Aw shucks thanks Mick.

Here's a random question which I don't know where else to post - what do Bauxites think, is pitching or hitting the less efficient market in baseball at the moment?

For sure the traditional pitching statistics are at least as misleading as the hitting ones (wins, saves, era, all heavily confounded by luck, defence, when you are put into the game etc). But my impression is that we still know who the good pitchers are, at the major league level, because we ignore the stats and everyone can see when a guy is pitching well as there are enough pitches in a game for things to even out.

This contrasts with hitting when everyone agrees on the superstars (mostly) but moneyballers vs traditional types can completely disagree on the 2nd tier.

So my impression is that it is hitting which is the less efficient market. What do you think?

(Or move this post into a different thread if there's a more suitable working one)

http://me.woot.net
With respect to Boomer's departure being sad: yes, that's true, considering the big fat load of jack squat we got (thanks very much for your loyalty, Mr. Sirotka). However, after the way he badmouthed Toronto, Toronto fans, etc., I will forever boo him loud and long. The guy's a jerk, and he doesn't belong on any Jays team I support anymore.

Al Leiter was mentioned, and I think the fact that he was able to stay healthy after he left was totally and utterly shocking to me.

I have to agree with many of the sage posts above. Could anyone have imagined that the dearly departed EL would rise to such lofty heights? And Jeff kent seems like the other obvious choice to me. Who'da thunk?

I thought the Felipe Lopez comment was bang-on too. The ultimate letdown. And you know what? I hate to say it, but Alexis Rios has that same who-cares look about him as Lopez and Cruz. All three just look like they're not particularly interested in the game. I hope I'm mistaken...

And watching Chris Carpenter pitch against the Cubs the other night, I couldn't help but think how nicely he would fit in that number 3 or 4 hole right about now. The price is certainly right.

I'm amazed no-one mentioned David Wells. They just gave up on him and released him. Then after he left he blossomed and we traded Rocket Roger to get him back.

I appologize someone already mention boomer. just missed it

I think we released Boomer cause he was a +2 pitcher and a -3 headcase.....

when he brought his stuff back up to +4 he was worth the pain...

http://me.woot.net
Daryn, is that like a +10 Amulet of Healing? :)

It is if you aren't wearing a -2 ring of slow digestion

If Boomer was such a pain it was nothing a good ol' potion of healing couldn't have cured.

This site is crazy today. Posts are getting deleted every other second. I really hate that. Just leave the stuff up.

I would appreciate if people would not use my handle to further their agenda. In other words I did not post this.

Early yet, but someone ought to have mentioned Doug Davis....

MatO, thanks for pointing that out. I'm sorry about that; I should have checked the IP addys more carefully.

I deleted the spoofed message.

Don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but the Yanks have put Kevin Brown on the DL, and Tanyon Sturze starts tomorrow for the team with the best record in baseball.

If he pitches a good game, it proves that there is no God.