The Yanks won again!!! This team won't lose.

They're 26-9 in their last 35 games.

Today's extra-colorful lineups, a product of my willingness to do anything to avoid studying for a 35% calculus exam I have Tuesday...

Blue Jays	Athletics
2B Menechino 3B Hinske LF Johnson CF Wells DH Zaun C Estalella SS Gomez 1B Phelps RF Rios	CF Byrnes SS Crosby LF Kielty RF Dye 1B Hatteberg DH Karros C Miller 3B McLemore 2B German

Talk about a platoon split - Kielty sits three in a row and then gets dropped in the 3-hole.

Anyone think Rios should be hitting somewhere other than 9th?

Or if Estalella should be batting somewhere other than 6th...

Don't look now, but Griffey's tied for the ML lead in HRs. I'm happy for him; Bonds may get to 756, but for a while it looked like Griffey would have smashed it before injuries robbed him.

Or if Alex should be studying for his calculus exam? ;)

Oh what a good start...

2nd pitch and it is 1 - 0 Oakland

ok 1 - 0 Oakland and a man on second with a shot off the wall.....none out.....NO PROBLEM!

YAY one out!

I think you can classify Kershner as a fly ball pitcher.

This inning is about as bad a start as Tosca could have feared. Two runs already which may be too much for his offensively challenged line-up and Kersher's already thrown over twenty pitches with only one out.

Hopefully Chulk can go 3-4 innings today. I don't see Tosca letting Kershner pitch any more than 80 pitches.

And here I was thinking that the double steal was meaningless.

And a strikeout to finish the inning.....

What's Yogi's expression? - It gets late early around here - I think that applies to this game. I wouldn't stretch any reliever out today, particularly Chulk who has pitched so well. I'd just let everyone have an inning or so.

I agree. At least tomorrow's an off day, so we won't have to worry too much about keeping the bullpen fresh if Kershner gets lifted in the 3rd or 4th.

I have a tough choice to make I can either bail out of the game right now (I doubt they will even score more than 3 runs) and study for my Crim exam or stick with the game hoping the Jays make a comeback...................

Maybe the plan is that redmans arm will go cold during the long outings the Jays have...

Well kershner is pitching better this inning (not like it is difficult after the last inning)

Well kershner is pitching better this inning (not like it is difficult after the last inning)

One of the few strategies that might get the Jays back into this game is getting into the A's pen which has been pretty poor this season. However, when you only make the starter throw 23 pitches through 2 innings you're really not threatening to get to the pen too early.

Just got home.

The good news -- I didn't miss the game. I thought it was a 10:00 PT start again.

The bad news -- well, duh. I just looked at the boxscore.

Whenever I get down over a bad play by the Jays, I'm going to remember that replay from KC just now...Ouch

According to the radio, things are "looking good" for Delgado, so I guess he'll be back soon.

At least the Jays are hitting the ball hard now - this is a good sign.

a HR here would make this game close at least....

Lopez in to pitch.

is there not someone in syracuse who can be called up to pitch more than 66 pitches? this is depressing, not to mention a tax on the bullpen --

Come on Mighty Mouse!

here he comes to save the day!!

I was hoping to see Rios pick up an RBI or two there but I'm still impressed with the patience he is displaying. 3 BB and 2 SO in 11 games now.

Menechino draws ball four and the Jays are on the board! Redman's control problems might just make it a ballgame after all...

YAY Redman walks a run in!

the Mighty Jays are on the board!

bases loaded none out and the bullpen is up!!

Once again, Hinske narrowly misses a homer after fighting through a two-strike count, but the run scores and Rios gets third. 4-2 and only one out for Sparky...

That ball Hinske hit might have gone out in the Skydome, sac fly anyways, 4-2

4 - 3

Yay Jays!

Wells up! a homer to take the lead would be great right now!!!

Bases Loaded Walk
Sac Fly
RBI Groundout

Is there a more boring way to score three runs? Hehe, I'll take it though. :D

Dammit. Intentional unintentional four-pitch walk to Wells with 2 out, and Zaun grounds out to Crosby to end the uprising.

Still, down 4-3 with Lopez on the mound is not a horrible place to be. Redman is at 93 pitches.

the Vincredible Chulk is up!

Vinnie Chulk Definitely Looks To Be Someone Who Has A Real Nice Chance To Be A Top Class Set Up Man For The Next 5 Or 6 Years.. Hope He Becomes Just That.

Why did they just recap the NY/Bal game from Thursday?

The only thing missing from that recap of Thursday's game was some Warren Sawkiw analysis.

Tosca senses it falling apart and brings in Ligtenberg to get Hatteberg in a Battle of the Bergs (thankfully, no defensive replacements on this play...)

Excellent - Why not let Ligtenberg go after a lefty and screw up Chulk's ERA?

Nice job by Chulk considering the ump really doesn't like him. There were about five or six pitches during his two innings that were definately strikes that were called balls.

Hopefully the 'veteran' Ligtenburg gets some better calls.

Oh dear - this isnt good.

What a shocker, a lefty rakes Ligtenberg.

There goes Chulks spotless ERA..... and also there goes the game....

Good call Fawaz, no way Ligtenberg should come in to face a lefty in that situation.

Does anyone know what percentage of inherited runners Ligtenberg has allowed to score this year? I remember earlier this year he had a terrific ERA, but it was because all the runs that scored on him were charged to the former pitcher.

By the way, I agree about the ump not liking Chulk. I thought he had Byrnes struck out twice. Very frustrating.

This season has been so frustrating. There have so few positives and so few reasons to be optimistic. Even the minor leaguers are not showing us much of a reason to look forward to the next few years. I'm sorry to be so pessimistic but what hope do we have to hang our hat on with the Blue Jays?

I'm glad Cat, O-Dog, Woody, and Delgado should be all be back next week. With all the call ups and bench players playing regulary we have no offence.

We've only scored 10 runs in the last 34 innings.

I know JP had his long term plan and that plan included the Jays to contend for next season but I see no chance of that happening unless Rogers is going to add 10-20 million of payroll.

Besides the O's being improved, I can't see the Red Sox or Yanks winnig less than 90 games next season (and I understand the Sox have a bunch of FA's coming up)

I'm interested to see how JP and Rogers offers Delgado. Ortiz just resigned for 6.5 mil a year and he's on the same level if not better than Delgado. Because Delgado has been more productive throughout his career do the Jays offer Carlos 22 mil over 3 years?

Ortiz would be the runner up for AL MVP (Vlad would win it) if they were voting today.

I like Candiotti, I think he makes far more sense than Tosca.

I agree with Mike, the lack of positives is very disappointing indeed. Who can say what will happen in the offseason but does the plan of contending in 2005 look plausible? Not to me at the moment. Depends on Delgado, Cat, and other FAs of course, but I fear a weak team again next year, albeit with lower expectations and hence more chance of doing something "exciting".

Sure, it's too early blah blah blah. But what we've seen so far this season has been a substantial let-down after the last 5/6ths of 2003.

Has anything been above expectations? Cat's hitting was a bit better than expected but I expected quite a lot anyway. The 2nd string have modestly over-achieved for 2nd stringers but that's not to say that they are exciting quality. Cash's bat looked good at the start but fell off. Hinske's defence has been pretty good; shame about the hitting. Anyone?

Now that's a nice outcome ... how come none of the Jays vets can handle stressful situations?

I don't think you should get to down about today. The Jays are severely undermanned while tha A's are a very good team and pretty healthy. Kershner started badly, but then was ok. Chulk and Frasor both look really good (although the boxscore won't be kind to Chulk thanks to Ligtenberg/Home ump). In all, I think the Jays look decent, and they'll look better once the regulars are back.

Uh-oh, Estealla's now limping, catchers are gonna refuse to play for the Jays!

Zaun has played well albeit his ISO Power is very poor and he might get traded soon.

The only person to stand out and play better than expected is Johnson. Provided excellent defence and has been a great spark plug on offence.

The farm system wasn't good as I thought it would be. The bottom line is that it's really hard to compete when you have the Sox and Yanks in the same division. Both teams will always have owners who are willing to spend big and play in markets which don't accept losing.

While fans like us will continue to watch the team, I'm worried attendance and interest will even dip further in Toronto. How many season ticket holders do the Jays have now? 5000?

How many fringe fans want to buy tickets knowing the team doesn't have a chance of even finising 2nd in a 5 team division?

I wouldn't go quite that far. The pitching has definitely improved; it just looks bad because if some inopportune blow-ups by the pen. The starters in particular have been good after a slow start. O-Dog was progressing further before the injury. Other young players are showing promise (Rios, Frasor and Chulk). Remember, even with a losing road trip, they been above .500 since the beginning of May despite being ravaged by injuries. That's something to hang your hat on.

Hope springs eternal. But, even with the regulars back I wouldn't expect the balance of the season to be anything to write home about. The Jays weren't playing very well with those regulars in the lineup before and it's hard to see them catching Baltimore for third. It's painful to say that a month before the All Star break but that's the way this sad Jay's fan sees things.

I thought the change to Ligtenberg was weird given how much he struggles against lefthanders. Chulk was struggling a bit with his control but he also had a few calls not go his way. The A's weren't touching his stuff so I think he deserved to face Hatteberg with the lack of a reliever warming up who would be a good matchup.

I would be shocked if they DIDN'T catch Baltimore; their pitching is catching up with them and they're already just 2.5 ahead of a Jays team that's been playing better of late and is ready to get a shot in the arm from its returning regulars.

The Jays are only 2 games back of Baltimore right now though 4 in the loss column. Why is hard to see them catching up? If the Orioles start experiencing some injuries we'll see how they hold up.

New to Da Box, long time reader, love the site.

I think you guys are being a little too easy on Carlos Tosca. Am I the only one who's disturbed by his inability to manage a game or a bullpen? Why would you bring in Kerry when lefties bat 300 against him?

I think Jays fans have the right to be upset or angry at how this team has performed, injuries or no injuries, they are a part of the game. Carlos Tosca basically put his word on the line when he said the team would be expected to win atleast 90 games and with the way the team is playing there's no way this team wins 90 games, let alone 80.

It is my opinion that Carlos Tosca must be fired for this team to start playing well.

I hope you're right and I'm wrong. Let's keep hoping and praying for some breaks and better umping from here on.

The pitching might be improved but I don't think it's at all above pre-season expectations. The average view was that one of the Batistia, Lilly, Hentgen would struggle badly and one other would be inconsistent. That's more or less what has happened. The bullpen has not lived up to expectations at all. Most of them look pretty poor signings, given that AAA arms have been performing at least as well. We'll see how Speier is after rehab.

I agree that Johnson has been a pleasant surprise. Frasor was a good trade. Miller also looks alright.

We haven't seen enough of Chulk yet; he may do a Nakamura and get sent down again after starting well. Rios hasn't show me anything except shaky defence and a bit more patience as a hitter than expected.

I don't mind not seeing the team contend this year. It was never realistic. But I want to see some positives, something to inspire some hope for 2005 or at least 2006. And I really don't see much. The farm system appears to have depth but a team's worth of elite talent? I'd like to think so but I don't see it. So we have to buy some elite talent in, and that means a little more $$$.

Finally, I'm not particularly sold on the excuse that we're in a tough division. Okay, the unbalanced schedule is unfair and we would also probably need more wins to reach the postseason. But no matter what division we were in we would not be competing at 6 games below .500.

http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent/
Hey - you know how they keep saying that freak injuries are a red flag for steroid use? How about that Sammy Sosa on the DL from a sneeze! This guy is a roid monkey. And a cheater. I hate Sammy Sosa. Especially how he does this 'nice guy' thing to death. And if you happen to be a reporter who might raise an eyebrow at the explaination that it was some good dental work - that now helps Sammy eat better - that has caused his significant weight gain, Sammy will make you his personal hand puppet. In a roid rage.

Jay fans have every right to be upset at the season so far. Didn't JP say during Spring Training he thought this club would win 90 games?

Lots of pessimism today - I guess small sample size rules the day.

It all begins with pitching. I think the biggest setback for the Jays this year has been losing McGowan. If the Jays are to contend in 2005-07, they need a strong, deep pitching staff--most of which is going to have to come from within the system. They simply can't compete for the Schillings, Javy Vasquez's, Kevin Browns, and Keith Foulke's of the world. Ricciardi has worked hard to find diamonds in the rough, but we've had to endure a lot of "rough" (Tam, Creek, Sturze, Lidle, Politte, Prokopec, Wasdin, Ligtenberg, etc) to obtain a few gems (Frasor, Lopez (v. 2003), Miller). Not that this is Ricciardi's fault: this is what happens when you have budget constraints and overpriced players to trade, and a tight market for pitching.

No, the pitching has generally been fine. Not excellent, but respectable. It's the hitting that's been holding the Jays back. Check the numbers - Toronto is middle-of-the-pack in most pitching numbers, but the hitters are sucking canal water.

To further elaborate on your post Matthew, if I may, is the fact that the Jays generally have done a good job with the "intangibles" of scoring runs, if you may.

They've gotten tons of walks lately, they are getting the baserunners, but they have not been able to cash them in. They have THE WORST batting average with runners in scoring position after today's game at slightly under 260 I believe. That's not good, obviously as opposed to last season when the Jays led the league in this category.

Even worse is the way they've hit with RISP and 2 outs. It seems to me, and it's so frustrating to watch, that these guys generally follow the "moneyball" system, but they just flat out can't hit with the exception of a slight few (Johnson, Wells namely)

Hopefully the return of a more than a few injured starters can give this team a shot in the arm as they didn't perform too poorly while these players were injured (8 out of their last 13 I believe)

I have faith, looking at the upcoming schedule of course, that the team can get back to .500 by the All-Star Break. It's loaded with games against struggling teams (for the most part) such as Arizona, Montreal, Tampa Bay, and San Fransisco to a slightly less degree. I fully expect them to finish in 3rd, AGAIN ;)

The problem is finishing 3rd doesn't cut it for most fans.

I do realize it's hard to compete with Sox and Yanks, but dammit I want the Jays to be able to compete for a championship.

The Marlins proved it last year you don't need a 70+ mil payroll to win the whole thing.

While I too would love the Jays to win a championship this season, or finish better than 3rd this season, it's just not realistic.

Take a look at what JP has done as general manager of the club. He's cut payroll, he's drafted and traded for young, quality players and that's how the Jays are going to continue to do things under Ricciardi. So far it's been working, as proven by last year's results. This season the team has run into an injury plagued season, but still, that is no excuse.

The team wasn't expected to contend until 2005-2007, that's why it's important Jays fans exhibit patience until all the prospects are ready, and the Jays are ready to make their move.

Trust me, it'll just make it that much more sweet when the Jays DO win it all!

http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent/
I'd relax a little. Look at their lineup. Kershner was starting. This was a throw-away game. With the Jays not really a threat to contend, there's no point in spending money on a good bench. If they are contending, then you make that mid-season pick-up, or add those key bench guys in the off-season.

some thoughts for future planning:

-Catalanotto is the real deal and should get a multi-year extension
-It might be possible to re-sign Delgado for half his current salary
-If Hinske doesn't stay warm during the summer it's time to look for a new 3B
-Sign O-Dog long term
...I've run out of energy with this bulleted list.

Bright Side: when Greg Myers comes back, won't he be worth something on the trade market? I'd keep Zaun around, the hitting is nice, but especially because he's so good with Batista.

http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent/
I'd relax a little. Look at their lineup. Kershner was starting. This was a throw-away game. With the Jays not really a threat to contend, there's no point in spending money on a good bench. If they are contending, then you make that mid-season pick-up, or add those key bench guys in the off-season.

some thoughts for future planning:

-Catalanotto is the real deal and should get a multi-year extension
-It might be possible to re-sign Delgado for half his current salary
-If Hinske doesn't stay warm during the summer it's time to look for a new 3B
-Sign O-Dog long term
...I've run out of energy with this bulleted list.

Bright Side: when Greg Myers comes back, won't he be worth something on the trade market? I'd keep Zaun around, the hitting is nice, but especially because he's so good with Batista.

I think even offering half of Delgado's current contract this off-season is too much. Ortiz who is younger and putting up numbers in the same ball park as Delgado went for 6.5 mil.

I would offer Delgado at most a 2 year contract for 14 mil. If he says no then I would spend that money elsewhere.

I know I'm probably dreaming but I would love it if JP traded for Morneau. The Twins are jerking him around when he should be playing everyday. He's too good of a player to be shuffled back between AAA and the bigs.

I see .290 35Hr's 110 RBI's out of him in the near future.

I think anyone who looks for comps between the Jays and the Marlins onloy has to look at the pitching injuries their staff had to deal with before winning it all last season. With Rosario and McGowan having already been under the knife, that should greatly enhance the Jays '06 aspirations

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/other/rreglossary.html#eirp
A bit late to the party, but Ryan Lind asked about Ligtenberg's amount of inherited runners allowed.

BP has him listed at a -1.8 IRP(Inherited Runs Prevented), which is tied with Kershner for worst on the team. The other big offender is Adams at -1.4. 3/4 of the teams in baseball have a guy with a worse IRP, so while he certainly hasn't been good with it, he's also not been particularly offensive. COMN for a full explanation of IRP.

I know I'm probably dreaming but I would love it if JP traded for Morneau. The Twins are jerking him around when he should be playing everyday. He's too good of a player to be shuffled back between AAA and the bigs.

The Twins know perfectly well what they have in Morneau, so it's unlikely they will trade him. Minny has a history of jerking around their hitting prospects regardless of how they feel about them.

I think the Jays have a much better chance of dealing for Michael Cuddyer, but that depends on how fast Luis Rivas comes back from his injury.

I thought the change to Ligtenberg was weird given how much he struggles against lefthanders. Chulk was struggling a bit with his control but he also had a few calls not go his way. The A's weren't touching his stuff so I think he deserved to face Hatteberg with the lack of a reliever warming up who would be a good matchup.

Or bring in Frasor. Would this not have been the most critical out of the game? If Frasor had shut down the A's in the 7th and 8th, the Jays would have had a decent shot at coming back and winning. And ironically enough, when Frasor was called upon in the 8th to clean up the based-loaded with no outs mess left by Ligtenberg, he managed to save 2/3 of the inherited runners with a double play and a strikeout.

Asking Ligtenberg to get a lefty out with the bases loaded was retarded. Especially when that lefty was someone with patience and power (Hatteberg). Kerry normally nibbles against lefties and is willing to walk them in order to get to a righty he can handle.

Tosca needs to learn to deal with the limitations of the pitchers in his bullpen. Today was no time to be experimenting with Ligtenberg and putting into a situation where he normally gets hammered.

In a perfect world, wouldn't it be sweet to trade Delgado away at the 3/4 mark for good prospects, and then sign him back at a reasonable price in the off season?

Ahhhh..... Perfect.

The O's did that with Ponson although what they got back has been a bust so far.

I'm hoping the Dodgers take a bite at Delgado. The division is up for grabs and a productive Delgado should put them over the hump. Their SP and bullpen is amazing.

I feel like Delgado would think long and hard about being traded w/o an extenstion to the Dodgers. He would escape a team that is going nowhere to a team that can make the playoffs and do damage. Plus he can get a lot credit if he puts them over the hump and his best friend Green is out there.

The problem with the Jays is that the Dodgers wouldn't give much in return (you can forget about Jackson or Miller)but at least the Jays would save a few mil and probably get a decent AA prospect in return.

I don't think the Dodgers would be too stingy, Ron. James Loney is a possibility, or maybe something involving Joel Hanrahan.