:) I did see a fine synchronized skating performance by a group of white-clad prima ballerinas. They did some quite pleasing things with a small rubber disc.

No doubt about it Mike, she definitely was...

Mmmmm... mustard chocolate....

This talking head would like to thank you for your correct answer.

I just spent the last 10 minutes trying to come up with a segway for that lyric only to be "byrned" by Jonny German.

No, no, no! They got it all wrong! How's The Hentgen supposed to close if he starts? Then its just an overrated complete game (shutout probably). Who cares about that stat, I want one that MEANS something. Let the man rack up.... SAVES.

Sorry 'bout that Mosely... I rarely get them, and even when I do I'm almost never fast enough on the draw, so I thought I'd seize the opportunity even if I couldn't think of a clever line.

This comment in Geoff Baker's article was interesting:

But team owner Rogers Communications helped make Delgado into a financial burden by not following up on its vow, when it bought the Jays four years ago, to do whatever it took to return a championship to Toronto.

Delgado heard that pledge; as did media and fans, and he signed his four-year, $68 million deal a month later as the first step in a return-to-contender strategy.

But after one money-losing season, Rogers diverted its vast resources to other business operations and slashed Toronto's payroll, making Delgado an instant liability on a team that now can't contend even when he has a dream season.

What do you think? Is this an accurate assessment of the situation? Is there a subtext here (competing media empires, etc.)?

What do you think? Is this an accurate assessment of the situation? Is there a subtext here

I think it's pretty accurate, actually.

I am sceptical of this claim. Delgado got a lot of money. He likes Toronto. It was not a special favour or part of some misguided belief that kept Delgado here. Personaly, I don't think Delgado really cares if he wins a world series. He just doesn't seem that competitive. I know that I don't know him, that's just how I feel. Furthermore, no one could know what would happen with salaries. In a parallel universe, Delgado could be making below market value. I'm not sure why Toronto always needs this awkward break up with its sports stars. Why did the Jays need to be seen trying to sign Escobar? Why couldn't we just have a professional parting of the ways? If Delgado signs somewhere else next year, that's his right. Thanks for the memories.

Personaly, I don't think Delgado really cares if he wins a world series.

I think this is absolutely true. A lot of people keep saying how Delgado would waive his no-trade clause so he can play with his buddy Shawn in L.A. I can't see this happening as it would require effort on Delgado's part, and he's never seemed overly ambitious to me. I think Delgado is content being a big fish in a small pond.

Personaly, I don't think Delgado really cares if he wins a world series. He just doesn't seem that competitive.

Your joking right?

Last season all Delgado did was carry this team on his back marching toward the wildcard berth only to be let down by the organisation at the trade deadline.

Thanks for the memories? Seems a tad harsh for perhaps the greatest player to ever wear a Blue Jays uniform.

I really think it's unfair to make assessments like that about Delgado's will to win. Granted, I have as little insight into the situation as anybody, but what would it take for him to dispel the notion that he doesn't care? Does he need to beg for a trade like so many before him only to be branded a whiner/quitter?

Seems a tad harsh for perhaps the greatest player to ever wear a Blue Jays uniform.

No doubt that Carlos is one of the greatest to ever wear a Jays uniform, and I'm not saying that he's not trying to win, I just don't see him pulling a Karl Malone or Paul Kariya and leaving a place he's comfortable to go to a team that's further along.
I think he's happy in Toronto. I'd like to think that part of it is loyalty to the city that's been so good to him, but for some reason I don't feel like it would eat away at him if he didn't win a championship.

Did he get a ring as a bench warmer in 1993 or was he not on the scene yet?

Delgado's two plate appearances in September of 1993 did get him a World Series ring.

I just don't see him pulling a Karl Malone or Paul Kariya

If that's the case than I think he deserves a lot of credit. It's real easy for these guys to say "Someone give me a ring" while taking on contracts that are clearly below market-value with already strong teams to completely disrupt whatever competitive balance there is in place.

for some reason I don't feel like it would eat away at him if he didn't win a championship

I think that's more common in baseball than other pro-sports because so few teams have a shot at it each year. It may not eat at him (although he did comment last season on his frustration at never having been to the playoffs factoring into whatever decision he makes this offseason) but that may be less of a competitive thing and more of a resignation to reality.

Let me clarify. I didn't say that Delgado didn't care. I think that he wants to do well. That is a personal drive. I don't think that he cares if he does it in the ninth inning with everthing on the line for a world series. I'm not saying he's soft etc. I just think he's happy where he is and would have no regrets retiring in Toronto or some other middle of the pack team. I'm also definately not saying that if the Yankees came calling in the off-season that he would avoid the pressure either. As for the 'thanks for the memories'. That's all he owes us. He showed up to play, he contract is over. He can choose to move on. We don't need to make him a villian. He didn't hold the team back as an albatross etc. We always position departing players as trouble makers or greedy. Why couldn't JP just say we don't want to pay Escobar the money that he'll make on the open market because we don't think he's that good. Good luck Kelvin.

I don't think keeping Delgado for 10-12 MM per season is a good allocation of resources, especially when there's other obvious in-house 1B solutions for 2005 and beyond:

Phelps
Hinske
Pond
JFG
Big Vito

And I agree with Alsiem - there doesn't have to be any acrimony over this.

As for Carlos waiving his no trade clause, that's up to him. Based on comments from Delgado and his agent over the years, Delgado is more interested in where he plays than who he's playing for/with. The chances of him waiving his no-trade clause are remote.

Marvin Benard update:

2 more HR in Syracuse today, bringing his line to:

297/381/703, 4 HR, 13 RBI in 37 AB

If/when he gets called up, will Berg be traded/waived?

BTW, Minnesota has lost Koskie, Punto, and Rivas over the past few weeks. Maybe they would be interested in Berg?

I think that he wants to do well. That is a personal drive.

alsiem, I couldn't agree more. I imagine that Delgado has resigned himself after all these years to it being very unlikely he'll see the post-season as a Blue Jay. I also believe he was very hurt and is likely still bitter about the MVP voting last year.

There is no question in my mind that Delgado should have had that award. The key criterion is most valuable to his team. Given that, I don't see how a last-place team can have a league MVP, talented as that player might be. An easy test is "Remove the player from the team and where does the team end up?" Clearly the 2003 Rangers without Rodriguez would have been a last-place team. The presence or absence of Rodriguez had no effect whatever on the team's final position. Remove Delgado from the 2003 Jays and where would the Jays have ended up? Probably a lot like the 2004 Jays who, so far, really haven't had Delgado and as a result are 9 games under .500 and only 2 games out of the basement.

Especially given that Delgado lost the MVP award because of the failure of one venemous writer in Chicago (who seems to have a hate-on for Toronto)to include him on his ballot at all, I can understand Delgado's disappointment. Spencer Fordin (I believe) spoke to Delgado right after the award was made and it was obvious that Delgado had been expecting the phone call declaring him the MVP and was extremely hurt and puzzled when it didn't come.

I think Delgado would like to stay, all else being equal, because the Blue Jays are home to him. I'm even willing to bet he would take slightly less than market value to stay. I also believe that the Jays will not be able to offer only slightly less than market value and that Delgado will go elsewhere, not for a chance to win the World Series but simply to be able to play as well as he can and be paid for what it's worth.

Even when he does go, I will always think of him as the best Blue Jay so far and think myself lucky that I had the chance to see him perform his magic for so many years.

Why couldn't JP just say we don't want to pay Escobar the money that he'll make on the open market because we don't think he's that good. Good luck Kelvin.

Isn't that what happened? I don't recall anyone, including JP, saying anything bad about Escobar leaving and taking the money. Nobody on this site had any problems with Escobar taking the money.

[mount soapbox]

I agree with alsiem's comments on the city's need to villify those who choose to leave, but this is probably not specific to Toronto and not specific to baseball. Ownership (and toady media) spin doctoring is so insidious that players who elect to leave after faithfully honouring a contract are villified as disloyal, even by fans who have the faculties to be more objective.

As a personal fan of his, I hope Delgado turns his season around and stays with the team after 2004 for an amount that is fair to him and not overly disruptive to the team's budget.

However, if he elects to go elsewhere in 2005, power to him. That will not have negated what he did for the team while under contract. Should he visit the Skydome wearing another team's uniform, he'd deserve to be treated with respect, not contempt.

As for whether or not Delgado has a burning desire to win a WS, how could any of us possibly know? And even if he didn't, would that somehow say less of him as an athlete, a competitor and a man? I believe that an athlete can still enjoy the day-to-day life of his profession, even on a mediocre team. By analogy, how many of us have played on recreational sporting teams where we've had fun even on teams that have lost more than they won? Sometimes just playing the game is enough fun.

I think it's very possible to not have "win a WS" at the top of your priority list and yet still be able to compete at your highest level. I don't believe these to be mutually exclusive. Yes, winning is more fun than losing, and all of us have seen Delgado raise his fist in the "clutch" mode when the team is doing well and someone has made a nice play, indicating that he certainly is not indifferent about winning and losing.

Players are motivated by money, by a certain city, by playing with friends, by proximity to family, by potential for a team to win, and likely by things I haven't even thought of. Whatever motivates them is their business and doesn't preclude them from being dedicated to doing well, even if on a bad team.

[/mount soapbox]

I don't recall anyone, including JP, saying anything bad about Escobar leaving

No, JP had this whole song and dance about offering a competitive package. JP also continued to reiterate (sp?) that the Jays were working hard to sign him. This positioned Escobar as unreasonable for not staying. Though he wasn't attacked, he was made to look greedy.

Nobody on this site had any problems with Escobar taking the money.
I was talking more about the casual fans that accept what the newspapers tell them. i.e. Griffin's column from yesterday that criticized JP for letting Escobar get away.

As for whether or not Delgado has a burning desire to win a WS, how could any of us possibly know? And even if he didn't, would that somehow say less of him as an athlete, a competitor and a man? I believe that an athlete can still enjoy the day-to-day life of his profession, even on a mediocre team. By analogy, how many of us have played on recreational sporting teams where we've had fun even on teams that have lost more than they won? Sometimes just playing the game is enough fun.


Especially when you're making 17 MM per season :)

But I agree that playing on a bad team with great people can be tremendous fun. The converse is also true -- playing on a good team with a bunch of jerks isn't much fun.

One other comment -- does anybody else have a problem with winning for the wrong reasons? Generally, I enjoy losing the "right way" over winning the "wrong way". More or less because losing the right way tends to lead to more wins down the road, while winning the wrong way tends to encourage bad habits and more losses.

I'll contradict myself now by saying that the Gomez rundown win on Monday night was very satisfying. I guess when you're struggling, you take the wins any way you can get them!

I'll contradict myself now by saying that the Gomez rundown win on Monday night was very satisfying.

Funny, my reaction was the opposite. The Jays certainly "deserved" to eventually win a cheesy game (who has time for honour when you're 17-27?), but I would have much preferred to see Pond's single trickle into the outfield.

Hey, we earned that win! When's the last time a visiting player said his team couldnt function because the dome was too loud? Im more proud of that win than most of the other 16 this season.

If nothing else, I'll take it as a sign that the Cheer Club efforts are not in vain.

Again. I didn't detect any bad feelings toward Escobar now or at the time he signed with the Angels. I don't recall any bad press about him. As for Griffin, consider the source. I rolled my eyes when I read the part about the Jays making Escobar look like a bad guy.

The potential in-house replacements for Delgado- Phelps, Hinske, JFG, Big Vito, Pond are all off to much worse starts than he is. The drop-off, if you look in-house, is likely to be large.

The potential in-house replacements for Delgado- Phelps, Hinske, JFG, Big Vito, Pond are all off to much worse starts than he is. The drop-off, if you look in-house, is likely to be large.

You have heard of slumps, right?

It was brought up int he Bauxite Bulletin thread that the Jays might be tlaking to Astacio about a minor league contract. I had the following ready to post over there, before I realized where I was :

What do you think about running the risk of signing Astacio to a minor league deal? With Hentgen's struggles (and calls for The Hentgen to help us make it through the ninth), does anyone think that with a few starts at Syracuse he could be a reasonable fifth starter? With a salary exactly the same as Josh Towers' (for argument's sake) who would you rather have pitching eveyr fifth day (or so) ?

Astacio is a risk free move.

If he's healthy, he has better stuff than Towers. The Syracuse rotation has been quite experimental lately, so I don't think Astacio will be stealing starts from more deserving pitchers.

Any predictions for Hentgen tonight? I think he'll last 6 1/3 innings and give up 4 runs. He'll leave with a man on second.

Jays win 7 - 5.

Another multi hit night for Pond.

Jose Molina will be a late scratch from the starting lineup when he cannot be found. An embarassed and remorseful older brother Bengie will later confess to having eaten him on the team's last homestand.

Jacko, it doesn't matter if you look at current year only, the last year and some or over 3 years, Delgado is just a much, much more productive offensive force than any of the in-house options.

Chuck LOL.

alsiem wasn't specific enough...

Having reached 107 pitches, Hentgen will drill Vlad (who hit a 2-run shot in the 1st) with one out in the 7th. He will then attempt to drill Guillen, who will duck and allow Vlad to reach 2nd on the WP. At this point Hentgen will be tossed. Adams will come in, walk Guillen and then surrender a 3-run shot to DaVanon. He'll get out of the inning. Pond will get THREE hits - 2 bloop singles and a bizarre looking triple. Frasor get the 2 inning save. 7-6 final (hey, you were close)

Hentgen will drill Vlad

Guillen will then charge the mound. By himself.

The drop-off, if you look in-house, is likely to be large

If you look anywhere, the drop-off is likely to be large. Delgado is one of the 10 best hitters in baseball. That is not easily replaceable (and certainly not by anyone not well-established as a major leauge regular).

After leaving 6 1/3 innings in, The Hentgen will the return in the 9th to close out the game. The umpires will allow this flagrent defiance of the rules because he will enter to such cool entrance music. See Craig B for details. (i think he's the one who posted it anyways)

Someone may have already answered this, but where is Delgado likely to end up this offseason? Who's going to pay him? It looks like he's headed to the NL. The deep pockets in the AL are either set at 1b or have their own FAs to worry about (and one in particular may fit both bills).

Jacko, it doesn't matter if you look at current year only, the last year and some or over 3 years, Delgado is just a much, much more productive offensive force than any of the in-house options.


Agreed.

Can we try to put a price tag on the dropoff? A platoon of Pond and Phelps can probably give you .350/500 production. A healthy Delgado can probably be counted on for a .400/600 season. You may argue I'm being a little generous with my Pond/Phelps figures, but I'm being equally generous with Carlos. He's getting more injury prone, and he hasn't posted a .600+ SLG since 2000.

I don't think the extra production Delgado brings is worth the extra 10MM he'll cost.

where is Delgado likely to end up this offseason?

Atlanta would have been a good guess a few years ago. Nowadays, they're content with Robert Fick types. (Re Atlanta, has anyone noticed that DeWayne Wise has 82 AB and that Estrada has been outplaying Millwood?).

LA is always mentioned as a likely destination because of Shawn Green. I'd say that it's specifically because of Shawn Green (and his wonky shoulder) that LA would not risk bringing in a first baseman. Green needs a fallback position if he can't play the OF.

SF is a team obviously in need. However, Delgado would interfere with Brian Sabean's experiment (how many games can a team win with Bonds and 7 replacement level players?).

How about the Washington Expos? (is Nick Johnson under contract beyond this year?)

In the AL, there's Seattle (if Olerud retires and if the Spiezio-to-1B talk is just that).

How about Mr. Domino sending Carlos Pena packing and bringing in another veteran? He wasn't afraid to spend this year.

What about Anaheim? The bucks are there, and if Salmon is off the books after 2004 and the team is in no hurry to promote Kotchman fulltime, this would leave an OF of Anderson/Guillen/Guerrero, Erstad at 1B (yuck) and no one at DH.

Someone may have already answered this, but where is Delgado likely to end up this offseason? Who's going to pay him? It looks like he's headed to the NL. The deep pockets in the AL are either set at 1b or have their own FAs to worry about (and one in particular may fit both bills).

Other than San Francisco and LA, I can't see any other teams that have an opening and the money to sign Delgado. And even those two teams might have trouble coming up with the money.

He might end up back in Toronto for a lot less than 10 MM if nobody else wants him...

At $18M/season, Delgado is a liability whether the team payroll is $50M or $125M. He plays poor defence, is not a good base runner, cannot hit LHP consistently. I don't think $18M is appropriate for excellent offence 75% of the time from 2001-2004 (he did LHP well in 2003). It is just fashionable to overpay for purely offensive 1B/LFers. The Jays would do better with a Scott Hatteberg/Erubiel Durazo type at first base, keeping money left over to /really/ improve the pitching staff. At a minimum, it would keep expenses down while waiting to see whether Hinske/Phelps/Woodward snap out of it.

Signing Delgado was a misguided attempt to lure other potential free agents to Toronto. Although it is good to have a strong, veteran influence around to help out the younger players as they come up, Tino Martinez/JT Snow/Mark Grace would have done just as well, and for $12-15M less.

His defence interests me because it was something that he really picked up last season. This year it has been as disastrous as his hitting. Is he playing hurt because he doesn't want an injury to affect his value on the market? He couldn't have aged that much in one offseason, could he? It was that damn homerun he hit in spring training...

but where is Delgado likely to end up this offseason? Who's going to pay him?

Just because no team is an obvious fit for him now, it doesn't mean there isn't a team who will sign him. Who would have guessed that Anaheim would end up with Guerrero? Delgado is a top player; someone will pay him. I don't think it's an issue.

Signing Delgado was a misguided attempt to lure other potential free agents to Toronto. Although it is good to have a strong, veteran influence around to help out the younger players as they come up, Tino Martinez/JT Snow/Mark Grace would have done just as well, and for $12-15M less


This is a classic case of hindsight being 20/20. At the time Delgado signed his deal, there was a lot of stupid money being thrown around at free agents. And a lot of the contracts were for a lot longer than 4 years.


At $18M/season, Delgado is a liability whether the team payroll is $50M or $125M. He plays poor defence, is not a good base runner, cannot hit LHP consistently. I don't think $18M is appropriate for excellent offence 75% of the time from 2001-2004 (he did LHP well in 2003).


Agreed.

The question isn't if he's worth 18MM. The question is what is he worth starting in 2005. Based on the Garrett Anderson and Pujols deals, people are sayig 10-12 MM. And I'm saying even that is too much for what he brings to the table. At least as far as the Jays are concerned.

Minor quibble -- Delgado makes 18.5 MM this year, but his deal averaged out to 17MM per season.

Delgado is a top player; someone will pay him. I don't think it's an issue.

No question - my question may have implied that I thought he was going to get stranded on the market; I just wondered if anybody had an idea of who the taker is going to be.

I did pick the Angels to make a strong and successful run at Vladdy, though :)

I think we are going to see further market correction, paricularly with older players, which Delgado is approaching.

According to usatoday salary index Garret Anderson is making 6.2 this season. Sheffield pulled 13 out of George. Both the Angels and Yankee's are probably regretful of those deals at the moment. I think this illustrates the danger in big dollars for older players but to be fair, the Angels and perhaps Garret couldn't forsee this strange medical issue he is dealing with now.

I can actually see Delagdo taking something slightly in excess of Ortiz in Boston. At least on the basis of Delgado's present performance. I know Raffy is older but he signed on for 4 mil.

How about Carlos for three years total package of 24 million. That figure represents a saving of about 10 million on his 2004 salary.

We have here a player who does want to remain a Blue Jay. One who is concerned by his public persona and would no doubt give his all to the team. There are no other cheaper quality replacements out there. One's who want to come to Toronto and give a discount to stay. Carlos might give such a discount. His profile suggests this anyway.

I don't buy the Durazo / Hatteburg solution-costing Oakland 4.4 ttl. for 04- The money saved in Delgado's salary is not going to result in pitching Nirvana unless the Jays overpay for a Randy Johnson type guy.

Take a look at the runs for and against for Boston and Oakland. Boston is paying for their rotation and Oakland is still basking in the glow of chance. If Oakland could have done better than Durazo and say landed a bopper like Oh ... Carlos now you'd be cooking with gas.

Incidently, I like JP's approach on the closer situation at this point, in particular his comments regarding Frasor. Obviously he does not want to put any pressure on him at all. Frasor says no one has talked to him about the role.

I think they'll just sneak him in there when they see an opportunity for him to succeed.

That would suit me just fine, no grand pronouncement, situations fluid, just let it slide.