In case this gets buried in the other thread...

I'm probably out for this series (summer school), though i'll try to make it in Tuesday. In any event, someone PLEASE heckle Hunter (career OBP .317) to the effect of 'you really are like spiderman; he can't get on the bases either' (but make it a little choppier). I know he's up to close to .340 this season, but it's just so current!

Menochino starting at SS, heres hoping.

Any radio coverage today?

Never mind. The Fan has it and its working. Yee hoo.

Let's make up a friendly contest ;-) Pick what game no. the Jays finally reach .500 in. I'm going to go with game 60 just for funzies (as my senior high math and physics teacher would say) - 30 and 30 just sounds good anyway. (I've made this prediciton without knowing the schedule ahead. There, I have my excuse for if and when I'm really, terribly wrong).

I'll say Game 76.

I've got the game on ESPN.

Lets see, 38 played + six games under = game 42. Na seriously, there are only three teams in the A.L with worse records than the Jays. I'm going with game 81.

There goes Craig being realistic and, in turn, trouncing my optimism ;-)

Game 81 , eh. And their .500 record after 81 games will be...

Ummm... Nice guess Lefty, but since its mathematically impossible (unless the jays postpone a tied game after 5 innings) to be at 0.500 after 81 games....

I'm going with 82 (I was thinking it before your post, no worries)

Doh, what I meant was when they go one game over. Yeaah ... that it, thats what I meant.

Quick BBFL question (I'm betting this thread will take over the site, leaving the BBFL thread stranded until tomorrow). When it comes to keepers, if I elect to, in a ridiculous example, not keep Josh Beckett would I be allowed to redraft him next year if he slipped to one of my non-keeper picks?

Haha, we can call your prediction 80 games then, eh Lefty ?

Wow, it seems like I use "eh" a lot...

Can anyone tell from the radio whether Shannon got a good (deserved) round of applause? I loved the guy, and hoped to be at his first game, but school put a nice halt to that. I'll make it tomorrow though at least.

Eh is a Canadian perpective.

I travel abroad alot for work, everywhere, I get colleagues saying eh before I leave for home. In England i try turn the aye's of the northerners to eh's.

Well, the Jays will be 17-22 after tonight. Add another 21-16 and they'll be 38-38 after 76 games. Then two more 21-16 runs will put them at 80-70, and twelve straight wins to close the season will get them to 92-70 and one game ahead of the Yankees for the Wild Card. Easy peasy! :) (How's that for optimism?)

Donkit: absolutely re-drafting is perfectly ok - I think there was quite a bit of it in Alomar this year. I got Jose Mesa again (don't laugh)

What an awesome play by Hinske! He's made that exact diving catch to his left a whole bunch this year. That one may have been the best of 'em though, as he picked it right off the carpet.

There we go Craig :-) Optimism, even of the blind variety, is lots o' fun!

Gwyn, if Jose Mesa '04 was a bit more like Jose Mesa '03 I would laugh heartily. Fortunately for you, he isn't ;-)

fyi: The ESPN broadcast is being carried on pay-per-view on Rogers (channel 319 on Rogers Digital Cable here in Ottawa). The announcers are Dan Shulman and Kyle Peterson. Shulman estimated there were 7000-8000 in the seats.

Little ball!

Wow... Dan Shulman. I miss that guy. Him and Buck were the bomb!

-Danny

70 games for the .500 contest.

I'll be the soopa optimist and guess game 50.

Here's another prediction contest - how many at bats before Pond gets over .200

I'll be optimistic and say 30

Ooh, a leadoff double by... Menechino!

Ooh, an RBI double for Catalanotto... Catalanotto drives in Menechino.... HEY Jayson Stark, 20 combined letters there. I would think there's been more letters combined for two players involved in an RBI/Run, but I wonder who they are.... ;-)

Since the Jays are facing the Twins...I'm thinking of Pierzynski and Mientkiewicz. 22 letters! :P

Didn't take long to come up with a possible answer ;-)

hit for pond!!

hit for pond!!

Hell of a start to this 7th. Pond with his 1st career hit, and Frank Menechino (THREE FOR THREE!!!) knocks him in with a double.

It looks like Pierzynski *might* have driven in Mientkiewicz ina game played on May 8, 2003 at Tropicana Field vs. the T Bay Devil Rays. Mientkiewicz scored, and either Pierzynski or Stewart knocked him home. (PBP is unavailable at Retrosheet... maybe I can search for a newspaper article *scratches chin*)

Way to go Garth.
5-3

maybe I can search for a newspaper article *scratches chin*)

Some of you guys have to much time on your hands.

Whoa, its the bottom of the order getting the Jays back in this contest. Nice one Cash.

Too funny. Frank Menechino just matched his season total of hits with this one game. He was 3 for 33 before tonights game, yuck.

Go on then Cat, drive in the tying run.

I usually pose the questions, Lefty, and let others with too much time on their hands find the answer. Tonight si actually my very first time perusing Retrosheet and witht he help of cnnsi I can confirm that Pierzynski drove in Mientkiewicz on May 8th 2003. Any more suggestions for possible champions (they combine for 22 letters).

http://me.woot.net
Wow. Wow. I'll bet this is the first time Wells has ever been intentionally walked to get to Delgado.

I just got home - and the first play i see on the gamecast is a BUNT???

And, btw, I hear that the Roosevelts have been put to good use ;-)

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!!!

JKCL: Do you mean they should trade Ted Lilly, Alex Rios and David Bush for Justin Morneau?

Batista, Rios and Hill for Justin Morneau. No, thank you. I like Justin Morneau but nowhere near that amount. Not even remotely close.

I heard them talking about Teddy Roosevelt on the radio. Is the work of our Cheer Club?

I'd guess that they like their own starters better than Batista/Lilly, They're another squad with a glut of outfielders so they may not want Rios. In any event, I think what you're suggesting would be too high a price for Morneau.

If you want to hear Shulman and don't have a satellite, he's on ESPN's Sunday Night Baseball radio broadcasts on the FAN every Sunday.

Keith, what did they say about the signs?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

A CF and two SP's for a 1B? No way. We can get a Delgado replacement for a much lower price.

Oh and I hear you, Fawaz. HR Twins, 7-5.

Call me a newbie ... but I was listening to the Fan and how come there are different Jays announcers?

Do they rotate pbb and color teams every 3 innings? Why would they mix it up?

Morneau is rated by most scouts well higher than Lew Ford. Once Ford cools off - and he will I think Moreau comes up for good and will be contributing to the Twins success down the stretch.

I do agree he probably could replace Delgado but like any minor leaguer he is still unproven.

I think it would be alot easier to get Ford or Cuddeyer. But do we really want them?

Ron:
Tom and Jerry switch around the p-b-p every inning or two. Wilner is the third man...also does the pre-post game shows.
Tom Cheek is the voice of thie Jays; done every game ever I believe.

Anyone get a chance to see that play at the plate? Was it close?

Pitch 1 - Ball
Pitch 2 - Called Strike
Pitch 3 - In play, run-scoring play

:(

What's going on? Gameday has appeared to freeze

Yeah, I'm frozen here too...

Some play at the plate, Cash dropped the ball. Anyone know what actually happened?

Man, what a let down after that rally...9-5

I'm way behind on CBS Sportsline. They just put up the Ryan double. Time to turn on the radio.

Ryan hit it to the wall in RF. Reed picked it up and got it in pretty quickly. The relay from Hudson was good but Cash tried to catch and sweep the tag on Cuddyer in one motion. But he never caught the ball as he looked like he had more time than he realized. The ball got away and Ryan took third.

Guzman infield single scored Ryan to make it 9-5.

Every other sport has steady pbp and color guys I find it odd the Jays (and maybe other baseball teams) rotate their jobs. I wonder why they do that?

Thanks Elijah...damn that IS a letdown.

Just arriving, and just now piecing together the last couple of innings via CBS Sportsline.

Recently I asked why the Jays are bothering to carry two lefties if Tosca has seemingly little use for even using one?

I would like to repeat that question in light of a lefty not having been brought in to face Jones, he of the huge career platoon split.

The odd thing is that with an anaemic Jay offense and Delgado floundering in his contract year, they may both end up needing each other.

Yes, very possible. Worse things could happen for sure.

I find that odd too given Tosca's (infuriating) propensity towards playing the match-ups.

Recently I asked why the Jays are bothering to carry two lefties if Tosca has seemingly little use for even using one?

Perhaps Tosca is aware of the criticism he receives everytime he played mix-n-match, and chose the wrong time to pay attention

I was about to say, I truly believe J.P. made a pact with the Devil (Billy Beane) to make Delgado re-signable with a lousy season in exchange for any and all of Hinske's talent to make Beane look less foolish in that trade...Crazy? OK, maybe.

I'll ask something I've brought up before; why is Hinske getting a free pass on his performance? Apart from his pathetic bat thus far, his poor range and positioning is masked by a few pretty dives that others at the position would snare with a step or two in the direction of the ball. I know he's J.P.'s boy but it's absurd that he's not riding the pine more when Cat gets lifted against every lefty.

My point about what you gave up was Lilly was that you didn't give up anything. Beane got nothing for him. If Beane can't get something for him, what does that tell you the 28 other GM's thought of him?

Dan Shulman guesting on Jays' Talk right now... nice!

Let me assure you that Beane doesn't think he got nothing for Lilly. He wanted him even when he was in Minny.

Kielty, that is.

Hinske is a full-timer, whereas Catalanotto is a contractor. Full-timers are human resources capital, and you have to be willing to make an investment in them; contractors are expendable and there's no reason to treat them well. Add to that the fact that there's no replacement for Hinske on this term. Who's going to play there and perform better? Gomez? Berg? At least with Phelps, a healthy Greg Myers gives the Jays an option at DH vRHP; whereas the Jays have no other options at 3B.

How many teams out there have /picked up/ 5+ ERA pitchers in the past two weeks? I'll guess three, maybe four. (I don't have the energy to go back through my e-mail.) Right now, it's much easier to find a decent first baseman than an average starting pitcher! I wouldn't dare move the pitcher for the first baseman.

JBR we aren't talking about a decent first baseman. We aren't talking about Kevin Millar or Tony Clark.

In any other organization in baseball Justin Morneau is ROY in 2004.

I happen to disagree on the contractor/full-timer point, though I see where you're coming from. My logic would be that they might as well get everything they can out of Cat without regard for where he ends up - I hate saying that because Cat's awesome - but if they really believe in Hinske (which I question) he's got to be dealt with now. It's interesting that you bring up Phelps because he's sitting in favour of Pond because they think it'll help sort him out. If Tosca thinks he needs to get Pond and Berg (a natural infielder, anyway) in the game, 3rd is an option for both.

I think the Dustin McGowan experience teaches us that the Jays should be willing to trade any pitcher in the organization except Halladay for Morneau. Young pitchers get hurt, often; young first basemen with 40-homer potential usually don't. There's a much better chance of Morneau developing into an impact player than any of the Jays' pitching prospects.

I think you can 'stick a fork' in the Jays for this year!

Starting pitching is the key to a successful team and when its not good you put too much pressure on the bullpen. And with the farm system not able to help out at this time, hence my opening comment. I mean, Syracuse has the worst record of any AAA team in the country - both leagues.

I don't think we should make a trade and give away players that we may need down the road like some of those mentioned in this thread. In spring training Jim Fregosi said to some us that the Jays starting pitching consisted of Doc and little else, and at this point it seems, he may be right. And with the unfortunate injury to Dustin M. excellent pitching from the farm system is probably 2 years away.

We are in it for the long haul, folks!!!

Batting Catalanotto against a LHP doesn't get you anything (.237/.231(!)/.289). Hinske has performed a fair sight better against LHP (.218/.308/.273) than Cat and, as mentioned previously, there's no /strong/ alternative to either. You can only sit one against LHP, and I choose Cat.

Actually, the McGowan experience means we need to hang on the pitching we have because, as you point out, any of the others could get hurt too. The organization is going no where if it can't fill out a rotation behind Halladay and it can't afford to do it through free agency. I know TINSTAAPP, but kids like Bush are our only hope.

I guess we disagree on Morneau's ability. If you value him that highly, then you /should/ make the deal; but I don't, so I wouldn't. As you way, pitchers get hurt more often than hitters, but I don't think hitters are "a lock" compared to pitchers when it comes to using the ol' crystal ball. Anyone remember Sil Campusano? If you're going to take on risk in commodities, it's wiser to get more of what's more scarce!

You can't deal Hinske now, as he has no trade value. Hinske's Nortel, and your only choices are hold and pray or dump. With no-one busting at the seems to take over 3B, I vote to hold and pray.

Fair enough. I choose Hinske because at least Berg can handle third; he's a disaster in left.

Hehe, snap. I was just about to compare Hinske to Nortel.

Agreed: Berg has two steps in either direction, but generally catches what's hit at him and has enough confidence to throw the ball to first base. I'd say it's a wash: Berg/Hinske v. Berg/Cat in total runs on both sides of the ledger. I will say that, at least, Cat has a history of hitting LHP better, so this must be his slump vLHP.

I didn't know this: the Cubs traded Hinske to Oakland for Miguel Cairo before the 2001 season. Not on point, but interesting.

Why all this Morneau talk anyway. I haven't heard the Twins looking to deal the future for the present yet. And as I higher up this thread. Morneau isn't up yet but he will be and when he comes up it will be because they are ready for his contribution.

Lecroy is back now, Mauer in about two weeks. Then Ford loses playing time to Lecroy at the DH spot. Ford will cool down, either a corner man or outfielder gets dinged up and Morneau comes up to stay and Lecroy is pushed to the bench, Ford is forgotten.

If your looking for extra Twins it would be more fruitful to discuss Cuddyer or Ford and as i asked before do they have any value to the Jays cuz thats all the Twins are going to peddle.

Hey Gleeman, they're talking about stealing yer man!

Equally off topic; now that we're further down the road, how does everyone feel about the extentions JP gave to Wells and Hinske? Obviously the Wells one looks brilliant and the Hinske one...not so much. My question is, do you like the idea of gambling like that given the team's budget restrictions?

Knowing what he knew at the time, getting Hinske for $3M/season was a "wise financial decision." It was a good, calculated risk that can still pay off if Hinske rebounds in 2005 to perform near his 2002 level.

You have to be happy with Wells and Hinske together for the amount of money they're being paid. If you had to shop the market right now to replace them, I don't think you could spend any less.

My question is, do you like the idea of gambling like that given the team's budget restrictions?

That was the reason they signed them to extensions. This way they will be affordable and not unsignable the first yr. of arb.

On the question of Hinske. Cripes this season is still young. Don't be to quick to write him off yet. You say Well's signing looks brilliant but it was less than two weeks ago many on here wanted to bench him or bat him bloody ninth.

Relax, its baseball, theres a hundred twenty odd games or so for Hinske to show his worth and he will.

Personally his defense is way better than last yr. I don't see that extra double pump before throwing to first as much or even anymore. His reaction time diving for balls is away better.

I heard them talking about Teddy Roosevelt on the radio. Is the work of our Cheer Club?

That was us. Jobu was a little freaked out as Tom Cheek was describing his actions while he was putting up the next Ted.

http://photographicsolutions.ca/albums/Battersbox/Teddy_K_web.jpg
COMN to see Teddy K.

JKCL, I think your just yanking everyones chains a little huh.

Lefty, Hinske has been back from his injury for about 120 games now. I think it's safe to be concerned about his level of performance.

...and he double pumps on /every/ play where he doesn't have to backhand the ball! Drives me nuts. Someone needs to show him tape (Clockwork Orange style) of Tony Batista getting rid of the ball quickly.

A weird moment from today's game. When Menechino came up for his first PA, the Jumbotron showed a pitcher of Dustin McGowan with McGowan's name and number 40. It was corrected after a couple of pitches.

Well JBR I beg to differ. His defense is better than last season and when Dudek puts up the numbers I'm sure that will be born out.

Hey Named for Hank, I think it was Wilner who commented on the Teddy K's. Said something like - the fan pulling that off is pretty deep. Personally I would say scary.

As I said the other day, you guys are now a movement. You have a public. Be careful not to let them down. Its in your hands now. Awesome responsibility. Yeow.

Lefty, I'm not sure what you disagree with: I think Hinske's defence is improved, but he still double pumps all the damn time! Grrr. You don't think that 460 PA (since coming off the DL in July 2003) isn't enough of a sample to be concerned about Hinske's woeful offence? He's performing the same way he did /when he was hurt/ (a little worse)! Either he is hurt /again/ or there is a deeper problem here.

Well... Morneau's potential is not a secret... I doubt Minny would let him slip away given all the press hype that he's generated thus far... I think such talk is pipe dreams my friend... but if we could get him, I'm do it in a heartbeat tho... I think anyone would...

I for one wasn't after Wells' head; as JBR points out, Hinske's been in trouble for a while. I agree re: the signings of Wells and Hinske - I just threw it out there because the reaction would have been interesting if Wells had taken the turn that Hinske APPEARS to have taken; about $6 million committed to players the Jays still had control over.

Though I generally agree with the the stock you place in this kid, the discussion I think is moot. No way in hell Minny is going to trade this guy unless you throw in a hot hitting Delgado and pick up his salary along with some of the names you mention. In other words if the Twins were reasonably sure they could win the World Series perhaps they would consider dealing him.

But yes, I rate him ahead of any T.O. prospect by quite a margin.

That last comment was weird. (I got up part way through, then didn't edit.)

Strike my comment about the 460 PA. I reviewed his second-half performance from 2003. Apparently I was talking out of my ass, there.

As for the latter part of the comment, it's true: his 2004 has been worse than he performed before he went on the DL. That's a serious problem.

3rd base is a wasteland Fawaz K and JBR. I haven't heard how you would replace Hinske?

Simple... Bring an 8-ball of crack/cocaine and maybe a little heroine over to billy beane's house and convince him to deal us chavez and pay for it???

Lefty, agreed. We couldn't replace Hinske at the major-league level at the moment. It's a question of whether we need to put effort into grooming a AA OF to play 3B....

Well, it's been fun. Good night.

Matt, I think you closed the deal. Unless we can get Troy Glaus cheap. He's likely out for the rest of the yr. and since this season looks like a write off we could deal Hinske for a pitching prospect.

A healthy Troy Glaus next year would look nice. I'll send an email to Theodore Rogers and and ask him to increase the budget. :)

I predict that Morgan Ensberg will be our third baseman in 2005. Hinske is either traded or moved to a less demanding defensive position.

Well... Morneau's potential is not a secret... I doubt Minny would let him slip away given all the press hype that he's generated thus far... I think such talk is pipe dreams my friend... but if we could get him, I'm do it in a heartbeat tho... I think anyone would...


There's not a chance in hell that Minnesota is going to trade away their top prospect (Morneau). It is a little weird that they insist on blocking him with the likes of Doug Mientkiewicz and Jose freaking Offerman, the chances of dealing for him are close to zero.

More interesting would be dealing for Cuddyer, who (a) appears to be surplus and (b) can play at little 3B.

Right on, there's nothing in the way of major league talent out there. Speaking of converting kids to play 3rd, there's a queue growing at SS...

Aaron Hill will be the eventual replacement at third base.

It REALLY is quite discombulating to have a radio in your ear and hear someone describe your actions as you're carying them out. Im just curious if the Teddy's got and ESPN props.

The reason I suggested Morneau is that the twins have been known to let players with some value slip away

Who exactly?

This is ridiculous, but what the hell, I'm being paid to stay up all night and stare at a computer monitor. In response to #40, I can confirm that on May 12, 2000, Mark Grudzielanek drove home Todd Hollandsworth with the Dodgers. That's 25 letters.

The reason I suggested Morneau is that the twins have been known to let players with some value slip away

Who exactly?


Todd Walker and David Ortiz were both given the bums rush, mostly because of their defensive shortcomings. Which is why I think Cuddyer is next...

Technically Morneau is not Minnesota's top prospect. Living here in lovely New Britian I didn't get to see much of Mauer. He had the special ability of having the day off most of the second half of last season when I went to the game.

He sure looks special from the 5 or so times I saw him. He just doesn't have anyone you can compare him to which would scare me if I were a Twins fan.

I'm not advocating trading for Morneau, nor do I think Minnesota would do it. It seems with the constant attention to the minors around here a few guys like David Bush have become bigger prospects then they ever deserved to be.

By the way, I think Schulman was right -- there's no way that there were 13,000 fans (the announced attendance) last night. I'd say that this was the smallest crowd I've ever seen at a Jays game. The upper deck was a wasteland. Heck, they weren't even selling 518 -- we had to take over 519, and we were virtually the only people there.

The crowd was lethargic for the most part, until the rally, when they went just wild. We actually turned to each other in the midst of our GO JAYS GO and all went "whoa" as the crowd roared to full-throated life. Pond got a nice standing ovation for his first hit, and a thoughtful Twin scored the ball for him and passed it to the Jays dugout.

http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?ID=6356
COMN for Justin Morneau's career record. His 2001 performance in the FSL is pretty similar to Rios' 2002 there. His 2002 performance in the EL was nowhere near as good as Rios' 2003. His 2003 performance in the IL was nothing great, and he's ripping the cover off the ball in his second go-round there so far this season, while Rios has struggled.

Morneau's 23 and he's a fine hitter, but if you look at the whole picture, he's just a little ahead of Rios (he's 2 months older and a year ahead in development) as a hitter, but he has nowhere near Rios' defensive ability or speed. Morneau would likely be a better hitter during 2004-2006, but Rios will likely be the more valuable player. He just needs a little more time (as Morneau did last year).

I don't think it was the smallest crowd at the Dome this year. I'm sure there were fewer fans for some of the KC, White Sox and games #2 and #3 versus Detroit. On those occasions there was almost no one in the 100 or 200 outfield level - yesterday, there was a smattering.

It REALLY is quite discombulating to have a radio in your ear and hear someone describe your actions as you're carying them out.

That's hilarious.

Mike, I totally disagree about Rios vs. Morneau as hitters. I don't see a way that Rios hits with Morneau over the length of his career. Granted, I've seen a lot more Morneau then I have of Rios in person, but I think hitting wise it's a no-brainer that Morneau has the better bat.

Morneau had a viral infection in 2002 that caused him to lose 20 lbs as well - that's why his numbers were down that year. The only other batter I've seen in the Eastern League that was as impressive was Jeff Bagwell way back in the day.

Newcomer Q: please define COMN. :)

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