A feel-good article from the always-reliable Spencer Fordin at mlb.com sums up much of the optimism surrounding the club, at least at the upper echelons. Ted Rogers' high spirits in particular are to be welcomed; I haven't heard him this pumped about the team in ages. The fact that his enthusiasm for the team is primarily financial bothers me not at all: it's good to root for a team that makes its owner money while also making him happy. What a sea change -- not just from the last bad days of the Ash regime, but particularly from the Interbrew interregnum. We've had cause in the past to be critical of Ted Rogers and doubtless we will again in future. But let's never forget that compared to the Belgian brewers, and even on its own merits, the Rogers ownership period has been a dream.
so if our jays become successful again and show hints of knocking on the door this year... does that justify Teddy to give JP some more payroll to work with?
After all, what is the point of owning a baseball team with so much potential, if you have no desire to give them a chance to win??? We have a)the best GM in baseball (certainly in the top 5) b)best pitcher in baseball c)two position players who will be routine MVP candidates..... These are luxuries that our fellow division rivals do not have (not to take anything away from Cashman and Epstein). It almost seems like one would be climbing the to the top of a mountain and turning around and going back when one gets 25 ft. away from the peak.
2005 - 07' are three yrs. where the jays have brilliant chances of playing some great ball and in my opinion going to the top. But these chances are contigent on ownership's desire to keep some of our own budding stars, not trying to be like oakland (which doesn't work in the AL east), and maybe giving JP the chance to fill some of the few remaining holes that we still have to make this team worthy of getting the casual fans back into the seats.
You have to spend money to make money after all... is that not how the old saying goes?
After all, what is the point of owning a baseball team with so much potential, if you have no desire to give them a chance to win??? We have a)the best GM in baseball (certainly in the top 5) b)best pitcher in baseball c)two position players who will be routine MVP candidates..... These are luxuries that our fellow division rivals do not have (not to take anything away from Cashman and Epstein). It almost seems like one would be climbing the to the top of a mountain and turning around and going back when one gets 25 ft. away from the peak.
2005 - 07' are three yrs. where the jays have brilliant chances of playing some great ball and in my opinion going to the top. But these chances are contigent on ownership's desire to keep some of our own budding stars, not trying to be like oakland (which doesn't work in the AL east), and maybe giving JP the chance to fill some of the few remaining holes that we still have to make this team worthy of getting the casual fans back into the seats.
You have to spend money to make money after all... is that not how the old saying goes?
We have a)the best GM in baseball (certainly in the top 5) b)best pitcher in baseball c)two position players who will be routine MVP candidates.....These are luxuries that our fellow division rivals do not have (not to take anything away from Cashman and Epstein).
Theo Epstein, Pedro Martinez, Nomar Garciaparra and Manny Ramirez might have something to say to that
Theo Epstein, Pedro Martinez, Nomar Garciaparra and Manny Ramirez might have something to say to that
You have to spend money to make money
That's the saying, but in most walks of life, and especially in baseball, you have to spend wisely.
Let's say you're the multi-millionaire owner of the Detroit Red Wings and a huge national pizza chain. Will your baseball team be more successful just because you pay Fernando Vina two or three times what he's worth? Not a chance.
There's a common misconception that J.P. wouldn't even want a larger payroll because it would be less of a challenge. While it's true that he enjoys the underdog role, I don't believe that for a second. However, there's no guarantee that he could have built a more competitive team for 2004 with another $5 million or even $10 million in the budget, so until the seats start to fill up again, I don't see why Rogers should spend the extra dough.
If Ted suddenly decided to spend $50 million of his shareholders' money irresponsibly on a high-mileage catcher and Pudge Rodriguez replaced Kevin Cash tomorrow, would that make the Jays favourites in the AL East? Would season ticket sales shoot through the roof? No, and no. The guy on a car phone from Maple would still be talking about the Leafs, and Richard Griffin would be issuing dire warnings that Tampa and Baltimore had done much more to improve themselves. If the Jays stay in the race with the team they have, the casual fans will return to the ballpark by the thousands, then there will be more money to spend on talent next year, and fortunately for us, it will continue to be spent wisely.
That's the saying, but in most walks of life, and especially in baseball, you have to spend wisely.
Let's say you're the multi-millionaire owner of the Detroit Red Wings and a huge national pizza chain. Will your baseball team be more successful just because you pay Fernando Vina two or three times what he's worth? Not a chance.
There's a common misconception that J.P. wouldn't even want a larger payroll because it would be less of a challenge. While it's true that he enjoys the underdog role, I don't believe that for a second. However, there's no guarantee that he could have built a more competitive team for 2004 with another $5 million or even $10 million in the budget, so until the seats start to fill up again, I don't see why Rogers should spend the extra dough.
If Ted suddenly decided to spend $50 million of his shareholders' money irresponsibly on a high-mileage catcher and Pudge Rodriguez replaced Kevin Cash tomorrow, would that make the Jays favourites in the AL East? Would season ticket sales shoot through the roof? No, and no. The guy on a car phone from Maple would still be talking about the Leafs, and Richard Griffin would be issuing dire warnings that Tampa and Baltimore had done much more to improve themselves. If the Jays stay in the race with the team they have, the casual fans will return to the ballpark by the thousands, then there will be more money to spend on talent next year, and fortunately for us, it will continue to be spent wisely.
I agree whole heartedly.... I'm not advocating a whole slew of stupid mets'ish FA signings... they often hurt more than help... Ya almost feel sorry for those metropolitans after the mo vaughn debocle... but an outlandish barrage of FA signings are not exactly what I am calling for so I apoligize if you misunderstood...
If we had more payroll, our bullpen would have a solid proven anchor to shut the door, thats all the bullpen really needs... I am not a proponent of a comittee like what we appear to be going with... Other than that, I'm not too concerned about major FA deals... We have a talented team, with a lot of up and comers... My concern is that by the time our promising group of prospects like your rios, gross, mcgowan, bush, etc. come to fruition, Your Delgado, Phelps, etc. will have fled for more money after all the time and effort the team and community took in molding them and watching them grow... It's frustrating... Carlos Delgado is very very likely to jump ship next year.
I just do not agree with the philosphy about, oh if I manage to have the same luck as oakland and get three brilliant pitchers become ready for the majors at the same time, and I start winning div. titles, and fans come back, THEN I might increase payroll.... It's backwards thinking. Ash did not do the job with his 70+ mil in his time here, and they lost a lotta cash.... so the slashing that JP had to do when he got here is totally justified.... but now you have a guy running your team who has generated a lot of excitement. He's certainly light years beyond the talent in his role that his predecessor brought to the table.
I think if you're ted rogers, you have to give JP a chance to keep the players who came up through our system... instead of constantly plugging the holes in your ship, as key components flee for more cash like in Oakland... That mentality will not get the job done here in the AL East no matter how efficient your management really is...
The Delgado issue, along with the issue of whether our pitching will EVER be good enough in this AL East, not just this yr, but in even the next 5 years is what worries me. Can JP put out a competitive team with a 50 mil payroll? Yes... Are his chances of revitalizing this city's interest in the game any getting that long lost banner hanging from the rafters that has eluded us for a decade any better if Rogers gives him the kind of payroll that Ash had to work with??? Damn right.... Is the city of Toronto an Oakland sized market??? I don't think it has to be that way...
If we had more payroll, our bullpen would have a solid proven anchor to shut the door, thats all the bullpen really needs... I am not a proponent of a comittee like what we appear to be going with... Other than that, I'm not too concerned about major FA deals... We have a talented team, with a lot of up and comers... My concern is that by the time our promising group of prospects like your rios, gross, mcgowan, bush, etc. come to fruition, Your Delgado, Phelps, etc. will have fled for more money after all the time and effort the team and community took in molding them and watching them grow... It's frustrating... Carlos Delgado is very very likely to jump ship next year.
I just do not agree with the philosphy about, oh if I manage to have the same luck as oakland and get three brilliant pitchers become ready for the majors at the same time, and I start winning div. titles, and fans come back, THEN I might increase payroll.... It's backwards thinking. Ash did not do the job with his 70+ mil in his time here, and they lost a lotta cash.... so the slashing that JP had to do when he got here is totally justified.... but now you have a guy running your team who has generated a lot of excitement. He's certainly light years beyond the talent in his role that his predecessor brought to the table.
I think if you're ted rogers, you have to give JP a chance to keep the players who came up through our system... instead of constantly plugging the holes in your ship, as key components flee for more cash like in Oakland... That mentality will not get the job done here in the AL East no matter how efficient your management really is...
The Delgado issue, along with the issue of whether our pitching will EVER be good enough in this AL East, not just this yr, but in even the next 5 years is what worries me. Can JP put out a competitive team with a 50 mil payroll? Yes... Are his chances of revitalizing this city's interest in the game any getting that long lost banner hanging from the rafters that has eluded us for a decade any better if Rogers gives him the kind of payroll that Ash had to work with??? Damn right.... Is the city of Toronto an Oakland sized market??? I don't think it has to be that way...
Actually the Toronto market is potentially the size of Canada but it has shrunk over the past 5 or so years. Where I live I don't see the excitment building yet. But then most people in Canada are the so called casual fans. Rodgers Sports Net is a national broadcaster, it also has major investment in its regional components. For example if the Leafs, Flames and Canucks are playing on the same night, I get the Canucks game. In fact the Leafs are on Sportsnet out west about twice a year. I am afraid that if the viewership numbers don't increase we will lose our Jays games and we will become Mariners fans as a result. Yuck.
I think Matt's description of where things are at is both positive and correct.
"Build it and they will come."
I think Matt's description of where things are at is both positive and correct.
"Build it and they will come."
I am one of JP's biggest fans but isnt it a little early to call him one of the 5 best GM's in baseball? 2 years from now I have no doubt he will have proven to be one of, if not the best GM but its still premature despite all of his great moves. Lets see how productive the last 2 drafts are, how some of these free agent signings work out and if and when the Jays make the playoffs again. Then let the coronation begin.
http://economics.about.com
I am one of JP's biggest fans but isnt it a little early to call him one of the 5 best GM's in baseball?
Not really. Can you name 5 better? I can't, unless you consider Jim Hendry to better than J.P.
Cheers,
Mike
I am one of JP's biggest fans but isnt it a little early to call him one of the 5 best GM's in baseball?
Not really. Can you name 5 better? I can't, unless you consider Jim Hendry to better than J.P.
Cheers,
Mike
http://www.immune26.tv
Matt...Matt...Matt I almost don't know where to start. I'll ignore most of your second post as it would take me too long to address all of it. Just one quick comment about it....T.O. won't be going with a bullpen by committee, ONE will be the CLOSER. Almost for certain that ONE will be Speier. We have half of February and all of March to decide.
BUT, your first post was mostly RIGHT ON! In it you say "You have to spend money to make money after all..." true BUT (as a Management Consultant) I can tell you that money SPENT is ALWAYS calculated on what the return will be!
Ownership WILL throw more money in the pot in 08 - 10. They will have to to keep at least some of our "young core" together. How much they THROW in will DEPEND on YOU and ME and everyone else that comes to the games. Only PAYING fans will ensure that 05 - 07 continues on till 2010! I think we will need 3 + Million *sses on seats yearly at Skydome by 07 to make sure ownership does their part in a big(ish) way.
Bring on the spring, I can't wait!
Matt...Matt...Matt I almost don't know where to start. I'll ignore most of your second post as it would take me too long to address all of it. Just one quick comment about it....T.O. won't be going with a bullpen by committee, ONE will be the CLOSER. Almost for certain that ONE will be Speier. We have half of February and all of March to decide.
BUT, your first post was mostly RIGHT ON! In it you say "You have to spend money to make money after all..." true BUT (as a Management Consultant) I can tell you that money SPENT is ALWAYS calculated on what the return will be!
Ownership WILL throw more money in the pot in 08 - 10. They will have to to keep at least some of our "young core" together. How much they THROW in will DEPEND on YOU and ME and everyone else that comes to the games. Only PAYING fans will ensure that 05 - 07 continues on till 2010! I think we will need 3 + Million *sses on seats yearly at Skydome by 07 to make sure ownership does their part in a big(ish) way.
Bring on the spring, I can't wait!
I am one of JP's biggest fans but isnt it a little early to call him one of the 5 best GM's in baseball?
If you're looking for tangible evidence then I would agree that he isn't in the top 5, because:
* No draft pick has even hit AAA yet, let alone the majors (not that they should, but there's no track record to say he is or isn't good in this department)
* There's been little to no success acquiring pitchers via trade or free agency
The only real accomplishment you can point to right now is that the team is as successful as they were a few years ago with a substantially lower payroll.
In the field the only players he's acquired are Hinske, Myers, and Cat. All are nice players, but it's nothing overly extraordinary. The other position players were either on the team or in the minors when JP joined the Jays.
And even the prospects set to hit Toronto in the next year are all players inherited.
Do I sound like Griffin yet?
Of course, having said all that, if I were an owner and had my pick of any GM I'd have a real tough time not picking JP & Co. The Jays are making, what appears to me to be, all the right moves, but if you were having an argument on the best GM right now you wouldn't have a lot to point to.
If you're looking for tangible evidence then I would agree that he isn't in the top 5, because:
* No draft pick has even hit AAA yet, let alone the majors (not that they should, but there's no track record to say he is or isn't good in this department)
* There's been little to no success acquiring pitchers via trade or free agency
The only real accomplishment you can point to right now is that the team is as successful as they were a few years ago with a substantially lower payroll.
In the field the only players he's acquired are Hinske, Myers, and Cat. All are nice players, but it's nothing overly extraordinary. The other position players were either on the team or in the minors when JP joined the Jays.
And even the prospects set to hit Toronto in the next year are all players inherited.
Do I sound like Griffin yet?
Of course, having said all that, if I were an owner and had my pick of any GM I'd have a real tough time not picking JP & Co. The Jays are making, what appears to me to be, all the right moves, but if you were having an argument on the best GM right now you wouldn't have a lot to point to.
Brian Sabean, Billy Beane, John Shuerholz..... okay I can't name 5. I would put Mark Shapiro, Theo Epstein, Terry Ryan and Brian Cashman (Hey just because he has the money he manages to stay employed under George, that counts for something!) in that category. I guess my point was although most of us all agree that JP is an awesome GM we wont know the extent of his success until the next year or 2. JP was hired to cut payroll and build a competitive ball club with financial restrictions. He has improved the depth of our farm system, Toronto was very competitive last year, payroll has obviously been reduced and the future looks bright but the results last year were not from players JP astutely acquired or traded for. Pistol pointed this out last post. However I dont want to sound like some of the negative reporters in Toronto so I will just leave it at that. Toronto is very lucky to have JP and Team running our beloved Blue Jays and Im sure his place at the top of the GM hill will come within the next 2 years.
Sure, it's early in Ricciardi's tenure to be making comparisons. Perhaps we should look for a precedent. How many other GMs have pared $30 million from a bloated payroll and improved the team at the same time? Even if his only skill was identifying the likes of Koch, Mondesi, Cruz and Stewart as replaceable for a fraction of the cost, I don't think there have been many housecleanings -- if any -- as successful, quite so soon. And the early reviews of his two drafts are very favourable, even from sources like BA that prefer toolsy 18-year-olds to SEC Players of the Year.
My ultra-scientific MVP selection technique is to imagine all the players lined up against the fence. The guy I would choose first for a pickup game is A-Rod, so he gets my vote. If someone wants to buy me the Brewers, and I get my pick of general managers, I would settle for Billy Beane as a second choice, but I'd pick J.P. without hesitation. It's hard to complete a top five. Brian Cashman probably doesn't get enough credit, working as he does in an unusually volatile environment. Kevin Towers impresses me, and so far, so good for Theo Epstein.
If anyone wants to give Theo and J.P. an "incomplete" and disqualify them, be my guest. Mark Shapiro is another relative newcomer who has done an outstanding job. Among the guys who have an approach I don't always agree with, but still get results, are Schuerholz, Hunsicker, Ryan and Sabean. And of course, there's no bigger Pat Gillick fan than me, but I don't think he's as passionate as he once was. If you judge a GM by how his successors do compared to him, Pat is already a Hall of Famer and Bill Bavasi is already helping that cause.
My ultra-scientific MVP selection technique is to imagine all the players lined up against the fence. The guy I would choose first for a pickup game is A-Rod, so he gets my vote. If someone wants to buy me the Brewers, and I get my pick of general managers, I would settle for Billy Beane as a second choice, but I'd pick J.P. without hesitation. It's hard to complete a top five. Brian Cashman probably doesn't get enough credit, working as he does in an unusually volatile environment. Kevin Towers impresses me, and so far, so good for Theo Epstein.
If anyone wants to give Theo and J.P. an "incomplete" and disqualify them, be my guest. Mark Shapiro is another relative newcomer who has done an outstanding job. Among the guys who have an approach I don't always agree with, but still get results, are Schuerholz, Hunsicker, Ryan and Sabean. And of course, there's no bigger Pat Gillick fan than me, but I don't think he's as passionate as he once was. If you judge a GM by how his successors do compared to him, Pat is already a Hall of Famer and Bill Bavasi is already helping that cause.
Before anointing Speier closer, ESPN's player comment may be worth noting: "2004 Outlook: Speier will settle back into a setup role, which is where he is more comfortable. He has a tendency to get too excited when he is given the task of closing out a save."
Hmmm. Shades of Politte?
Hmmm. Shades of Politte?
While it is too early to evaluate JP's draft choices, it is worth noting that a few hitters who looked like busts have taken significant steps forward, and I'd be comfortable attributing that to JP's organizational emphasis on plate discipline.
Bring on the spring, I can't wait!
Me neither. I cannot wait for opening day.
Me neither. I cannot wait for opening day.
If Speier was to be annointed closer don't you think JP would've signed him for more than a year?
Those lousy saves cost a lot when renegotiating. Speier will get his chances but ALo and Ligtenberg will likely get more save opportunities...
Those lousy saves cost a lot when renegotiating. Speier will get his chances but ALo and Ligtenberg will likely get more save opportunities...
"hitters who look like busts have taken significant steps forward" Who??
The fact that saves cost a lot when renegotiating shouldn't affect the price Speier will cost the Jays next year, because if he's in for anything more than a marginal raise he won't be coming back.