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Should Carlos Delgado be signed to a long-term deal? A number of fans have been asking that here on Da Box recently. A lot of the discussion centers around how much Carlos Delgado will be worth at the end of a three- or four-year deal. Since Carlos's value is 90% dependent on his offensive production, the real question is how much we can expect him to hit at the end of such a contract... say, in 2007. So to help answer that, I did a very simple study.


My method was simple. Carlos was 31 in 2003, but because baseball ages are determined at July 1, he was as close to 30 as he was to 31 (Carlos was born on June 25, if you're looking to buy him birthday presents). He has 69 RCAA (Runs Created Above Average) last year. He's averaged 66 RCAA over the last four years, so it's not fluke production by any stretch.

So, I decided to look at every player who ever had between 60 and 80 RCAA in a season at age 30 or age 31, between 1950 and 1999 (to give time for the forward-looking part of the study, though it cuts off two very interesting and relevant comparisons).

I am not going to study defense, just hitting, so I just took everyone together in the analysis, and made position irrelevant. Also, most of the players were high-OBP, high-power sluggers like Delgado, and the presence of the occasional Boggs, Molitor, or Morgan isn't enough in my opinion to throw this off significantly.

There were 22 players in the study - in fact, 21 with Frank Robinson twice.


Player Year RCAA
Frank Robinson 1966 80
Carl Yastrzemski 1970 80
Joe Torre 1971 75
Jeff Bagwell 1999 74
Stan Musial 1952 74
Dick Allen 1972 73
Albert Belle 1998 72
Willie Stargell 1971 71
Craig Biggio 1997 68
Jack Clark 1987 68
Wade Boggs 1988 67
Paul Molitor 1987 66
Barry Bonds 1995 66
Harmon Killebrew 1967 64
Joe Morgan 1974 64
Frank Robinson 1967 64
Bernie Williams 1999 64
Ken Singleton 1977 63
Willie Mays 1962 63
Mike Schmidt 1980 62
Rico Carty 1970 61
Mo Vaughn 1998 60


I think there are about 16 or 17 MVPs in that list. Anyways, offensively these are the players that compare best to Carlos's 2003. A few of these are somewhat fluky performances (Rico Carty most of all) but everyone on the list put up at least a few other seasons above 30 RCAA, and many are legendary hitters like Musial, Mays and Bonds... guys with distinctly better overall pedigrees than Carlos's so far.

I looked at what the 22 players did four years later. This, for Carlos, is his 2007


Player Year RCAA Games

Frank Robinson 1970 38 132
Carl Yastrzemski 1974 38 148
Joe Torre 1975 -12 114
Jeff Bagwell 2003 21 160
Stan Musial 1956 41 156
Dick Allen 1976 7 85
Albert Belle 2002 0 0
Willie Stargell 1975 34 124
Craig Biggio 2001 17 155
Jack Clark 1991 17 140
Wade Boggs 1992 -1 143
Paul Molitor 1991 50 158
Barry Bonds 1999 40 102
Harmon Killebrew 1971 24 147
Joe Morgan 1978 6 132
Frank Robinson 1971 24 133
Bernie Williams 2003 3 119
Ken Singleton 1981 14 103 (strike year)
Willie Mays 1966 47 152
Mike Schmidt 1984 38 151
Rico Carty 1974 6 33
Mo Vaughn 2002 8 139

Average of 22 Players 21 124


Incidentally, Sammy Sosa and Gary Sheffield matched this profile in 2000, and this year will be their "Delgado 2007". It will be interesting to see what they are able to do. Our most recent examples - Bagwell, Belle, Biggio, Bernie, and Blubber - have not done well.

This is not an entirely heartening study. That performance line four years hence looks a little moth-eaten; and that's only the third year of a renewed Delgado contract. Worse, a fairly substantial number of the seasons we're seeing occasioned some pretty harmful contract offers from the teams. In not one of the 22 instances did the player match his performance of four years before; Paul Molitor's 1991 and Willie Mays's 1966 were the best seasons in the study but neither approached their previous mark (both were 16 off the pace). What's good news, though I didn't look at it yet, is that Year 4 actually looks better than Year 3 at a glance.

Overall, this group of players were very effective during the four years following their initial (benchmark) season, which bodes well for Carlos going forward of course. But by the time the fourth year hits, a number of these players are no longer performing at a high level. I think that merits some concern. As I have said before, Carlos Delgado's professionalism and dedication are all the insurance I would want on a new contract. But the ravages of age strike a player quickly, and the idea that such players lose roughly half their offensive value (compared to replacement level) in four years is a reminder.
Carlos Delgado 2007 | 79 comments | Create New Account
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_Shrike - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 02:49 PM EST (#15321) #
Some excellent food for thought, Craig. It certainly validates my gut feeling that the wisdom of signing Delgado to a four-year contract at $13MM+ is going to take a lot of faith on the part of Jays' management that he can remain at a high level.
_R Billie - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 02:53 PM EST (#15322) #
It would be interesting to see what kind of effect modern training has on the longevity of careers. Delgado's in pretty good shape and is pretty dedicated to a training regimen so I'm willing to bet his mid-30's performance more closely mirrors those of Sheffield and Sosa than a great deal of these players who were from a previous era when the benefits of training and diet (and possibly related supplements) weren't as widely known. With the caveat that I expect Delgado to be a near full-time DH near the end of his contract to keep the pressure off his knees.

It definately takes a special kind of player though. Barry Bonds devotes a significant percentage of his salary into a personal staff of trainers, dieticians, chefs, and related experts to keep his He-Man physique and impressive fitness level into his late 30s. You want a guy who isn't going to lose that hunger to perform and play through pain despite advancing years and huge piles of money in the bank account.

I'm guessing Delgado is that type of player but he's also a guy who plays through significant pain to get through a 160 game schedule and has already had a knee surgery and plays half his games on turf. This isn't anywhere near as cut and dry as Halladay's contract. Delgado represents a significant risk and signing him will take a lot of faith in the man rather than what history suggests.
Pistol - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 03:13 PM EST (#15323) #
FWIW, Delgado's similarity scores at BR:

Similar Batters through Age 31
Fred McGriff (936)
Willie McCovey (919)
Jeff Bagwell (909)
Albert Belle (909)
Jim Thome (905)
Mo Vaughn (888)
Frank Thomas (883)
Jose Canseco (882)
Hal Trosky (878)
Ralph Kiner (874)
Mike Green - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 03:14 PM EST (#15324) #
Craig, this is interesting. As you may remember, I did a little study using Baseball Reference's 10 most similar, which included many of the names here, but also McGriff and McCovey. I'm not really worried about the big, big guys (Delgado is trim), the headcases and the catchers (Vaughn, Carty, Killebrew, Stargell, Belle, Allen and Torre). If you take these out of the study, as well as pro-rating Singleton's strike year over the entire year, you'll arrive at an average of 27 RCAA. That's my best guess for Carlos' 2007. Now which major leaguer first basemen created roughly 27 RCAA and what were they paid?

If you wanted to nail this down a little more precisely, I'd stick with first basemen and widen the RCAA from 40 or 50 to 80 and track the average decline. It would also be useful to track this group over the entire period from 32-35 to see what the averages were. My guess is that the average rate of decline would be about 25-30 per cent of RCAA over the entire period from age 30-31 performance. It'll probably be higher if you include the big guys like Vaughn.

You'd also have to bear in mind in assessing value, that by 2007, Carlos' glove might not be what it is now, and he might be a DH. When I suggested 4 years/$50 million, my mental calculation was 3 X $14 plus $8.
Pepper Moffatt - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 03:16 PM EST (#15325) #
http://economics.about.com
His comps on Baseball Reference, for the most part aged very poorly. Here's the Age 36 performance of his Top 10:

PLAYER AVG OBP SLG PA
McGriff .277 .373 .452 664
McCovey .253 .416 .506 442
Bagwell - - - -
Belle .000 .000 .000 0
Thome - - - -
Vaughn .000 .000 .000 0
BigHurt - - - -
Canseco .258 .366 .477 306
Trosky .000 .000 .000 0
Kiner .000 .000 .000 0


"-" means the player hasn't hit his Age 36 season yet.

Carlos seems to be in much better shape than these guys, so it's not as bad as it looks. Slow footed sluggers tend to age pretty badly. Carlos has only 9 stolen abses in his career, so Yaz (23SB in Age 30 season), Frank Robinson (23SB in Age 28 season), Bonds and Mays aren't great comps. McCovey and Killebrew are good comps that were both great through their age 36 seasons.

Baseball Prospectus subscribers know that PECOTA doesn't have Delgado aging well either, though the new cards aren't out yet. His card through the end of 2002 has him declining at about a win per year!

Cheers,

Mike
_coliver - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 03:22 PM EST (#15326) #
Delgado's willingness to DH in the future must play a role on whether or not the Jays should sign him through 2007. I think he would be willing--he does not seem to have the "DH is emasculating" mentality that Georgle Bell once had.
Pepper Moffatt - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 03:34 PM EST (#15327) #
http://economics.about.com

Tale of the Tape - McGriff vs. McCovey vs. Delgado

What does WARP3 have to say?
Age	McGriff	McCovey	Delgado
21 0.0 4.6 0.0
22 0.0 2.4 0.9
23 3.0 4.5 -0.4
24 8.3 3.7 3.3
25 7.7 8.0 5.0
26 9.2 2.9 10.4
27 7.2 9.0 7.7
28 5.9 9.3 11.1
29 6.3 6.8 8.0
30 6.8 9.5 9.4
31 7.1 10.6 10.8
TOTAL 61.5 71.3 66.2

32 7.1 11.2 ???


33 3.9 4.1 ???
34 4.4 1.3 ???
35 6.6 6.6 ???
36 3.1 5.3 ???
TOTAL 18.0 17.3 ???

37 6.7 3.9 ???
38 4.7 1.0 ???
39 0.5 4.3 ???
40 ??? 1.9 ???
41 ??? 2.3 ???
42 ??? 0.2 ???

_Jeff - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 03:37 PM EST (#15328) #
Put me in the "don't resign Delgado" camp. The only benefit to signing him that I can think of is that he performs at his current level throughout the life of the contract. The negatives are that the team will be at an even more competitive disadvantage if he doesn't, it reduces your long term flexibility(what if Rios plays as advertised and we want to sign him long term next winter), he is a shorter term investment compared Wells, Hinske or Halladay, its reduces your roster flexibility (Phelps, Hinske and Griffin may all be better suited to play first base but would be blocked by Delgado), it prevents you from addressing other needs, to use a couple of finance analogies the Jays portfolio would be overly-concentrated in a few star players and one bad investment would drag down the whole thing whereas if they diversified and had several lesser stars they would be in a much better position, you would be buying high whereas Wells, Hinske and Halladay were bought low (thank you collective bargaining agreement) and finally, because the Jays are on a budget and they are paying full price for his production, theoretically at least, his production should be fully replaceable - the exact dollars could be spent on other players and should buy the exact same production. Unless, you want the Jays to become a win at all costs, damn our children organization, I can't justify his signing. Personally, I would rather have a team that is competitive every year and hopes to get lucky every once and than a team that buys a shot at a world series and then stinks it up for the foreseeable future.
_Jonny German - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 03:42 PM EST (#15329) #
His comps on Baseball Reference, for the most part aged very poorly. Here's the Age 36 performance of his Top 10...

I thought we were talking 3 year extension, so I did the same thing Moffatt did but for age 35 season (2007). If you want to draw a conclusion from such a tiny sample, it's something like a 50-50 shot that the Jays would either do just fine on a 3 year contract extension or they'd regret every penny of the 3rd year.

Sim AVG OBP SLG AB
McGriff 936 .310 .405 .552 529
McCovey 919 .266 .420 .546 383
Bagwell 909 .278 .373 .524 605
A.Belle 909 Out of baseball at 34
Thome 905 Not yet 35
Vaughn 888 .190 .323 .329 27
FThomas 883 .267 .390 .562 546
Canseco 882 .252 .377 .444 329
Trosky 878 Out of baseball at 34
R.Kiner 874 Out of baseball at 33
Pistol - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 03:56 PM EST (#15330) #
Interesting findings here. I would say from what I've seen 4 years would be out of the question, and you're taking a chance on him with even 3 years.

Has it been shown that playing on turf does or does not have an impact on a player's longevity? I would think that it can't help.
_Matthew E - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 04:22 PM EST (#15331) #
This isn't justified by numbers, but in my mind I've been thinking that two more years would be a good amount of time to bring Delgado back for.

The other thing is this: if you know Delgado's going to be leaving eventually, and he is, eventually, then don't you have to start planning to replace him? I'd like to see the Jays pick up a couple more prospects with big-time power+OBP potential. Maybe in this year's draft.
Mike Green - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 04:25 PM EST (#15332) #
Mike M's numbers are interesting also. We don't think of Delgado at his prime as being better than McCovey at his prime (at least I don't), but there you have it. He has been. He has been significantly better than McGriff at his prime. Delgado's averaged 9.6 WARP over the last 6 years.

I don't know whether a reasonable expectation is 6 or 7 WARP over the next 5 years, but that is the range barring significant injury. The risk is in my view moderate, and really not too different from Halladay's risk (the age difference being more or less offset by the positional difference).

The Belle, Vaughn and Kiner comparisons from the BR list don't really worry me.
_Tassle - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 04:26 PM EST (#15333) #
I'd like to see the Jays pick up a couple more prospects with big-time power+OBP potential.
Yeah, because, like, there are so many of those to choose from.
_Nigel - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 04:32 PM EST (#15334) #
Tassle, in one sense you're obviously right but I agree with Matthew's point. If you look at the system as a whole, the one area in which the Jays' farm system is severly lacking is anyone with any serious power potential at any position. The debate has raged about Rios' power potential so that may be one source and, for a catcher, Quiroz showed good power but that's about it. It's too early to tell with Vito. I would like to see JP try and use his first round pick on someone with power potential. I think it is an organizational weakness.
_logan - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 04:45 PM EST (#15335) #
I'm not really worried about the big, big guys (Delgado is trim), the headcases and the catchers (Vaughn, Carty, Killebrew, Stargell, Belle, Allen and Torre).

Why aren't you worried about the catchers? Delgado was one for his whole minor league career, and he has had a lot of knee problems recently.
Mike Green - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 04:45 PM EST (#15336) #
One more thing about Delgado and McCovey. I don't remember the New Historical Baseball Abstract ratings, but the original in the mid-80s had McCovey as the 4th best first baseman by peak value behind Gehrig, Foxx and Sisler. Each of these greats did not perform well in their late 30s, Gehrig due to ALS, Sisler due to an eye injury and Foxx for reasons that I do not know.

If Delgado maintains his performance through age 40, he has a chance to have an argument to be the greatest first baseman of all time (career value). In any event, I'm quite sure that he'd be honored just to be listed with these greats.
Pistol - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 04:47 PM EST (#15337) #
I don't know that the Jays power in the minors is that poor. Rios and Gross should be at least average in the CO, Quiroz for a catcher has great power, and JFG has shown power as well. There might not be a 40 HR player in the minors, but the Jays lineup will be pretty good in that department overall, especially with Wells in CF.

I will concede that the current regime hasn't drafted any power hitters yet, which may be more due to an emphasis on drafting pitchers the last 2 years than a lack of identification.
_Matthew E - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 04:48 PM EST (#15338) #
Tassle: That's why you want to start now.
robertdudek - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 04:51 PM EST (#15339) #
One thing Jeff didn't mention is the effect Carlos leaving would have on his teammates and the fans. A 10-WARP player is worth more than 5 2-WARP players and getting 2 5-WARP players for less than 10-12 million total isn't that easy.

I don't see the evidence presented here so far as indicative of anything. There hasn't yet been an appropriate comparison group constructed for Carlos. Such a group ought to consist of first basemen who've been as successful as Carlos.

Mike Moffat's McCovey comp is the best I've seen, but Delgado has out-WARP'ed him age 26-31; the fact that Stretch had more value from age 21 to 25 is completely irrelevant at this point.

And Fred McGriff, as good as he was, is simply an inferior hitter to Carlos. Here's WARP differential by age:

21 even; 22 +0.9; 23 -3.4; 24 -5.0; 25 -2.7

McGriff is 10.2 WARP ahead through age 25 ...

26 +1.2; 27 +0.5; 28 +5.2; 29 +1.7; 30 +2.6; 31 +3.7

Carlos was 13.2 WARP better in the last 4 years.

Off the top of my head, the best comps for Delgado are McGwire, McCovey, Bagwell, Thomas, Thome, Giambi.
robertdudek - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 04:57 PM EST (#15340) #
Delgado hasn't caught for a long time (his last season as a regular catcher was 1993, when he was 21). Torre is the only one on Craig's list who caught a significant number of games in the bigs.

When you talk about projecting a player's performance in his 30's, position is a HUGE factor.
Mike Green - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 04:57 PM EST (#15341) #
http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/torrejo01.shtml
Logan, Joe Torre had caught 903 major league games as a catcher by age 29 (COMN). The wear on the body (not just the knees) of those games, plus his minor league experience, exceeds to a tremendous degree the wear from Carlos' minor league catching career.

Carlos' stopped catching because of shoulder problems, not knee problems. A reasonable expectation for Carlos' early-mid 30s is that his mobility will be decreased because of his knee and back conditions, but that his hitting will not be affected to a large degree.
Mike Green - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 05:04 PM EST (#15342) #
There we go, Robert, you beat me to the punch.

Your comps are good ones for performance, but not quite for body type. I like McGriff and Gehrig. Delgado's peak performance is midway between McGriff's and Gehrig's, and I expect that he'll do as well at keeping close to his peak in his early-mid 30s as those two.
_Ben NS - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 05:22 PM EST (#15343) #
If you look at the names that Delgado has been compared to above, it seems apparent that we want him after 04. If he does the Halladay thing and takes a hit for the hometown, we could be in luck.
Pepper Moffatt - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 05:27 PM EST (#15344) #
http://economics.about.com
Here's a revised tale of the tape, with McGwire included. I've broken the sample into different periods reflecting the career path of Delgado (part time player, coming into his own, superstar):

Tale of the Tape - McGriff vs. McGwire vs. McCovey vs. Delgado

What does WARP3 have to say?
Age	McGriff	McGwire	McCovey	Delgado
21 0.0 0.0 4.6 0.0
22 0.0 -0.1 2.4 0.9
23 3.0 8.4 4.5 -0.4
TOTAL 3.0 8.3 11.5 0.5

24 8.3 5.8 3.7 3.3
25 7.7 7.4 8.0 5.0
TOTAL 16.0 13.2 11.7 8.3

26 9.2 9.1 2.9 10.4
27 7.2 6.1 9.0 7.7
28 5.9 9.7 9.3 11.1
29 6.3 2.2 6.8 8.0
30 6.8 2.3 9.5 9.4
31 7.1 7.8 10.6 10.8
TOTAL 42.5 37.2 48.1 57.4

32 7.1 10.1 11.2 ???


33 3.9 10.1 4.1 ???
34 4.4 12.0 1.3 ???
35 6.6 9.4 6.6 ???
36 3.1 5.7 5.3 ???
TOTAL 18.0 37.2 17.3 ???

37 6.7 1.2 3.9 ???
38 4.7 0.0 1.0 ???
39 0.5 0.0 4.3 ???
40 ??? 0.0 1.9 ???
41 ??? 0.0 2.3 ???
42 ??? 0.0 0.2 ???
TOTAL 11.9 1.2 13.6


CAREER 98.5 107.2 113.4 66.2



Cheers,

Mike
_Jonny German - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 05:30 PM EST (#15345) #
I think Moffatt's table clearly illustrates that we should start calling him Carlos McDelgado
Mike Green - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 05:38 PM EST (#15346) #
Just a quick note on McGwire's career for those who missed part of it. His age 29 and 30 seasons were not off seasons. He missed almost all of 2 seasons due to a foot injury that took a very long time to heal. When he played, he was as devastating as ever. Did this lost time stand him in good stead in his early 30s? Maybe.

All I know is that I'd be happier if Carlos played 150-155 games a year rather than the 161 or 162 that Carlos has played several years.
Pepper Moffatt - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 05:39 PM EST (#15347) #
http://economics.about.com
I think Moffatt's table clearly illustrates that we should start calling him Carlos McDelgado

From my very limited knowledge of Spanish, I believe Delgado means thin or skinny. If this is true, then obviously he must be called "Carl McSlim".

Cheers,

Mike
_Cristian - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 05:58 PM EST (#15348) #
You are right about delgado meaning thin in Spanish. You go wrong by equating Carlos to Carl. If you want to be accurate, you'd have to call him Charles McSlim.
Pepper Moffatt - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 06:01 PM EST (#15349) #
http://economics.about.com
You are right about delgado meaning thin in Spanish. You go wrong by equating Carlos to Carl. If you want to be accurate, you'd have to call him Charles McSlim.

Good point. I just happen to like the name Carl. :)

Charles is too formal. How about "Chuck McSlim" or "Charlie McSlim"?

Chuck McSlim would be the greatest name ever for a poker player or pool shark.

Cheers,

Mike
_Robbie Goldberg - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 06:02 PM EST (#15350) #
#138214 Posted 01/22/2004 04:32 PM by Nigel:
If you look at the system as a whole, the one area in which the Jays' farm system is severly lacking is anyone with any serious power potential at any position. The debate has raged about Rios' power potential so that may be one source and, for a catcher, Quiroz showed good power but that's about it.
--------------
You can't judge a player's power potential on their minor league performance. Just to illustrate, I've listed a few random players who have had "home run success" in the majors who entered my mind and checked their power in the minors:
- Shawn Greeen, age 20, AA, 360AB, 4HR
- Chipper Jones, age 20, A and AA, 530AB, 13HR
- Alfonso Soriano, age 21, AA and AAA, 324AB, 10HR
- Alex Rodriguez, Age 20, AAA, 214AB, 15HR

These are just 4 random players I've chosen who have developed to become MLB power hitters and Rodriguez is the only one that seems to have very good HR/AB totals. I'm sure there are many players that don't follow these trends, but the point is you can't make an evaluation based on minor league power numbers. John Sickels said he thinks Rios could have 35-40 HR potential, Quiroz hit 20HR in some 350 odd ad bats (which projects to about 35 over a season) and I think Gross and Hill could have 20HR power. I think if oyu have 4 guys who should become solid major leaguers with that kind of HR power, you're system ain't doing to bad in that category.
_Matt - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 06:19 PM EST (#15351) #
Eric Hinske, meet first base. First base, meet Eric Hinske.
_S.K. - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 06:31 PM EST (#15352) #
I personally think that the length of the deal is more important than the money. If he can somehow be enticed to sign a two-year extension (which I highly doubt), then I'd keep him at any price. A three year deal, then I'd keep him as long as it was a little below market value (say, 35-38 for the 3 years). At four years, I think we have to start talking a serious discount (4/45 or something like that).
I think it's absolutely ESSENTIAL that JP does everything he can to convince Delgado to stay (which I'm sure he will be doing). Even moreso than Halladay, Carlos is the face and voice of this franchise. My dad is a casual baseball fan, and he has only vague knowledge of the Doc, but he loves watching Delgado hit and could easily pick him out of a crowd. Carlos has been here through the bad times, and if we let him walk away, it will make a hugely negative impact on Joe MapleLeafFan.

I know it might not be possible (and I think we can count on JP to not get overly sentimental) but all those saying "hit the road, Carlos!" have to remember what it does to your general fanbase when your best, most popular player tells the world that he doesn't think your team is good enough to play for.
_Nigel - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 06:38 PM EST (#15353) #
Robbie, I agree completely that HR's are no measure of future major league power potential. However, minor league SLG should tell us something (I realize this is a less precise stat than isolated power but it is quick and dirty) as presumably some of the singles and doubles turn into HR's at some point. You also must factor in the age and level at which the prospect turned in the SLG. numbers. Finally, you would need to understand park effects (which to my knowledge do not exist for minor league stadiums on line). The following is a list of the Jays minor leaguers who had a minimum of 200 AB's with a slugging percentage above .450 (admittedly an arbitrary number but not unreasonable for someone with "power"). This threshold would cut out a prospect who is very young for the level who might have developing power (like a Rios a year or two ago). I'm not aware of a prospect that fits that description but I admit to imperfect knowledge on that front.

Gross (AAA/AA) .456/.481
Pond (AAA/AA) .460/.513
Zuniga .510
Griffin .461
Quiroz .518
Rios .521

Pond was 26 last year so his numbers have to be taken with a grain of salt. Zuniga is not a prospect. Clearly Quiroz and Rios for their age and level put up impressive numbers. Gross and Griffin were 24 and 23 respectively last year (I think). While not old for their level not young either. Their slugging numbers are not terrible but not great either. The best you can say is that the jury is definitely still out on them.

By way of comparison, Shawn Green at age 21 in AAA for a full year SLG. 510 and at age 22 in Toronto in his first full year SLG. 509.
Coach - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 07:02 PM EST (#15354) #
While I appreciate the statistical evidence, and wouldn't want to bet $50 million of my own money on him remaining the awesome force he is for another four or five years, I believe Delgado deserves a solid offer. Not the two years, $10 million, please-don't-take-it they put on the table for Escobar, but a genuine attempt to keep Carlos a Blue Jay for his whole career.

All of this is a long way off. We don't know yet what the payroll will be; maybe a terrific 2004 season at the gate will give J.P. more ammunition. I'm sure that something in the $11-12 MM range per season could be worked out, but would the ever-practical Ricciardi and his employers want to guarantee four more years? It may not matter.

Let's assume Carlos has another MVP-type season. Let's assume that the "correction" in the free agent market is over, because Moreno and Angelos continue to spend like Steinbrenner, and a couple more of their peers decide to compete for the big prizes. If Delgado gets a five-year, $75 million offer from a contending team, he has to take it. The Jays can't -- and shouldn't -- try to match that kind of deal.

On the other hand, if the free-spending owners are reined in again by their miserly brethren and nobody offers Carlos more than four years and say, $50 million, that's when things like comfort, loyalty and mutual respect can come into play. I'm sure Delgado would be the first to tell you he has enough money, and would take a lot less for a legitimate chance at a ring than he would from a weaker team.

If the 2004 Jays improve as much as many of us think they will, they'll be right on schedule for a serious run in 2005 through 2007. Wells, Hinske, Phelps and Halladay, to name a few, will be in their prime. Not all of the prospects will reach their potential, but some of them will be contributing. Offer Carlos three guaranteed years, about $36 million, with a club option for 2008, and let him decide if that's enough to finish what he's started in Toronto.

If he does move on, we'll miss him, but it's not a catastrophe. The dropoff in production at 1B can be replaced by an increase in several other positions, and the concern about a lack of power in the farm system ignores the possibility of a free agent signing. If either Rios or Gross takes a backward step this year, there will be a Trot Nixon or Geoff Jenkins out there who could fit into the post-Delgado budget. The belt-tightening phase is over; the plan to contend in 2005 and beyond must have some financial flexibility. Whether or not it includes Delgado is really up to him.
robertdudek - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 07:07 PM EST (#15355) #
Here's what I found by doing a win shares analysis using a 6-man comparison group (McCovey, McGwire, Bagwell, Thomas, Giambi, Thome)

Taking the age 26 through 31 seasons, the comparison group produced .190 adjusted win shares per game played and played in an estimated 89% of team games, for a win share total of 27.4 (normalized to 162 games). Note: Giambi and McCovey were shifted half a season forward because they were born in January.

Delgado produced .181 adjusted win shares and played an estimated 94.9% of team games, for a normailized win share total of 27.8 WS during the analogous period.

The 6 player-group produced .205 wins shares per game played and played in 84.6% of team games during the age 32/33 seasons, for a win share total of 28.1 WS (per player, per season). 1.5 seasons were used for Giambi.

In the age 34/35 seasons, the 4 remaining players produced .157 win shares per game and played in 87.6% of team games, for 22.3 WS (per player, per season). Since the comparison groups is reduced to two players therafter, no meaningful analysis was possible for the age 36 season.

Judging by this (admittedly) small representative group, here is the win share production I expect from Carlos: 2004 - 29WS, 2005 - 27WS, 2006 - 24 WS, 2007 - 20 WS, 2008 - 17 WS. This factors in the likelihood of missed playing time and expected decrease in production rate.

For a contract extention of 4 years, Carlos would produce an estimated 88 win shares, which is equivalent to approximately 29.3 marginal wins. Assuming dollar value per marginal win of 1 to 2 million, Carlos' expected production will be worth 29.3 to 58.6 million dollars (7.3 to 14.65 million per season). That's assuming constant dollars (i.e. no salary inflation).

The analysis does not factor in a "pennant premium": players who have high peaks and low throughs (a zig-zag pattern) have a more favourable effect on expected pennants won than players whose production is of equal overall value but without the peaks and throughs.

It also does not factor in Carlos' economic value as a long-time Jay, unoffical captain and spiritual heart of the team.
_Rich - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 07:15 PM EST (#15356) #
theoretically at least, his production should be fully replaceable - the exact dollars could be spent on other players and should buy the exact same production

Sorry to sound like a broken record on this point, but what combinaton of players can anyone think of that can produce a .300 / .400 / .600 line, even if they make a total of 11 or 12 million in salary that Carlos likely will if he stays? Anyone? Bueller?

Could his knees give out? Sure. Is it likely that he won't still be a great hitter at age 35? I'm not sure how he would deteriorate so fast. Plate discipline and power are skills that players can maintain perhaps more easily than some others, in my view, not that I have the empirical evidence to back this up.
robertdudek - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 07:48 PM EST (#15357) #
I have a chart I use as a rule-of-thumb for the value of production, it goes something like this:

0-3 WS = $400,000
6 WS = $1.0 MIL
9 WS = $2.2 MIL
12 WS =$3.6 MIL
15 WS =$5.2 MIL
18 WS =$7.0 MIL
21 WS =$9.0 MIL
24 WS =$11.2 MIL
27 WS =$13.6 MIL
30 WS =$16.0 MIL
33 WS =$18.5 MIL
36 WS =$21.0 MIL

The chart assumes that as you get better and better production (from one player) you have to pay more for each marginal win share because of the scarcity of that level of talent. I believe this chart fairly reflects the market value of position players on the free agent market and in the last 2 years of arbitration eligibility.
_Jeff - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 09:42 PM EST (#15358) #
One small point, you can't spend dollars you currently don't have in the hopes that you will have that you will have money in a couple years. That is a surefire recipe for bankruptcy. Either you know with a reasonable degree of certainty that the money will be there or you don't. Its like buying a lottery ticket and then buying a sports car (even if it is at a home town discount) on your credit card in the hopes that the ticket is a winner.

Maybe a more appropriate item for discussion is whether JP committed long term to the right players? Should he have not signed Hinske last year in order to save room for Chuck McSlim?
Mike Green - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 10:09 PM EST (#15359) #
Nice work, Robert. Your analysis accords with my subjective impression, an average loss of roughly 20% in performance over the period. Another possible comp would be Eddie Murray. If he was used, the averages would be bumped up a bit, and the loss might be in the 17-18% range that I expect for Carlos.

Your projection is for Carlos to average 22 Win Shares per season. The following are first basemen who contributed 20 Win Shares or more last season: Delgado, Giambi, Helton, Thome, Sexson, Lee and Bagwell. The market for these guys is pretty clear.
_Jordan - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 10:23 PM EST (#15360) #
Even if I weren't one of the administrators, I'd still think Batter's Box was one of the best baseball sites on the Web, and this thread proves it again. Just some terrific, independent, thought-provoking research here, not for profit and done in your spare time -- amazing. Kudos to everyone who's contributed.

No flies on JP:

"We're not talking with Carlos on a new contract right now," admitted Ricciardi, "but I did place a call to him today and I wanted to just let him know that we haven't forgotten about him and we want him to be a part of what we're doing." (From today's Toronto Sun.)

My sense, based on all the foregoing research, is that Carlos figures to be excellent value in '05 and '06, decent value in '07 and we're-not-at-all-sure value in '08. So it makes sense to say, from a fan's and an organization's perspective, that a three-year deal in the $13M/per range would be ideal (BTW, there is no chance on this Earth that Carlos is going to sign an extension for less per year than what Roy got today. No chance).

But I think it's also fair to say that most teams who'll be talking to Carlos this winter will be starting with four years, and the Jays will have to go that length if they want to be serious contenders. So should JP bite the bullet and gamble on a 2008 season that could be an albatross?

I say yes, and I say that because every team has a seasonal cycle that must be respected, and because real value isn't measured annually. By the time the 2007 season draws to a close, assuming there have been no major personnel or related disasters, the Blue Jays can justifiably expect to look back on these seasons:

2004: building towards contention, flirting with playoffs
2005: serious contender, playoff spot aimed for and expected
2006: championship-calibre club, free-agent investments
2007: championship-calibre club, free-agent investments

If you're thinking that looks vaguely familiar, you're right; if not, try reading it again with the following years: 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993. (I trust, by the way, that everyone here will be enjoying themseves immensely all throughout the coming seasons. The really good years are just about to begin, and we're lucky to be fans today. For all our talk of tomorrow, never forget to enjoy today.)

When the 2007 season ends, payroll will be at its highest point in the Ricciardi era, because JP will have successfully pitched Rogers that this is the time to roll the dice and spend the extra dollars on a championship. More importantly, the previous few seasons will have seen the best Blue Jays clubs in 15 years, and will represent the franchise's best shot at a World Series. They may not have taken home any championships -- ask the Atlanta Braves how miserably hard it is to win one of those things, even with a great ballclub -- but they'll have taken their best shot, fielded some superb teams, and give their fans all they could ask for. But one way or another, the glory era will be coming to an end. Autumn will be replacing summer.

By the end of 2007, the following players' contracts will be up: SP Roy Halladay, RF Vernon Wells, 1B Eric Hinske. Unless baseball economics has completely eaten its own tail by then, at least two of those players will fly the coop, maybe even all three. Why? If the Jays have won a Series or two at that point, the players will have their rings, they'll have done what they set out to do, they'll be champs. And nothing sours quite so fast as a championship club. Why stick around in Toronto when you've won it all? Time to cash in and get the really big money, play closer to home, whatever (especially Wells and Hinske, who will have been performing far above their salaries for years). Rogers will be satisfied, and will not be interested in paying more for championship players; they'll be ready to turn the clock back to 2002 and start building from scratch again.

Conversely, if the Jays have taken their best shot three straight years and come up empty, then impatience will likely turn to exasperation, players and management alike will be frustrated and about to pitch the whole thing, and ownership will be ready to pull the plug on this expensive roster that makes no more money for Ted Rogers than did the $50 million Fighting Jays of 2004. Maybe Ted can be persuaded to fork out the cash for one more crack at it, a veteran near-miss team giving it one more try -- but by 2008 at the latest, the ride will be over. There's a guy in the front office whose contract also expires after 2007.

Either way, autumn starts again towards the end of the decade. There's a season to everything, said the good book, including baseball teams; the 13-straight-winning-seasons era of the 1980s and 1990s is an artifact that very likely will not be repeated -- not for a team with a payroll below $100M. By April 2008, the Jays will either be a veteran team ready for one last championship shot, or they'll be a team in the midst of transition, a mix of not-yet youngsters and hanging-on veterans on the way down to a rebuilding program.

In neither of these events will there be any harm in having DH Carlos Delgado on the roster. Either he's the inspirational captain of the Aging but Still Fighting Jays, or he's the Hall-of-Fame elder statesman of an organization in twilight. Will Carlos produce on-field value in 2008 commensurate with his salary? Almost certainly not -- but by that time, to this organization, it won't matter. His value will probably be largely sentimental, his presence a testament to the fact that the Jays needed him when he was younger, and this was the price that the organization (happily, I would hope) paid.

Four years, $52 million? In a heartbeat.
_R Billie - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 10:51 PM EST (#15361) #
Salary room can be worked around for a franchise player through deferrals and special perks that might extend beyond the end of the player's career. If there's a guy that deserves to be extended that treatment, it's Delgado. After Roy's press conference, JP said they were creative with Eric, Vernon, and Roy and they expect to be similarly so with Carlos.

I'm sure that there will not be any kind of offer until after this season; Carlos' performance and the team's progress will dictate what kind of offer is made and from Delgado's perspective whether it's worth accepting.
_Metric - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 10:58 PM EST (#15362) #
Jordan, seriously, that was lovely.
_Tassle - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 11:04 PM EST (#15363) #
His value will probably be largely sentimental, his presence a testament to the fact that the Jays needed him when he was younger, and this was the price that the organization (happily, I would hope) paid.
That whole post was wonderful.
Pistol - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 11:07 PM EST (#15364) #
I personally think that the length of the deal is more important than the money. If he can somehow be enticed to sign a two-year extension (which I highly doubt), then I'd keep him at any price. A three year deal, then I'd keep him as long as it was a little below market value (say, 35-38 for the 3 years). At four years, I think we have to start talking a serious discount (4/45 or something like that).

I totally agree with this. I'd have a hard time giving more than 3 years with a team option for a 4th.
Coach - Thursday, January 22 2004 @ 11:16 PM EST (#15365) #
Jordan, your magnificent post made this great thread even better. I don't agree that they will -- or should -- guarantee four years to Delgado, certainly not over $50 million, but I'd be delighted to be wrong, as it's not my money.

Autumn does replace summer, and that's a lovely metaphor, but it's conceivable that with four more great drafts, a shrewd trade or two and the current crop of prospects flourishing, it could be a long, hot summer lasting ten years.

I said in an e-mail today that if Ricciardi takes his best shot for the next four years and comes up empty, this team will go back to square one, and J.P. might take a consultant's job closer to home, where he could coach his sons. But if the plan comes to fruition, Dustin McGowan would be ready to replace Doc, Rios to replace Wells, and so on. The GM would be unlikely to abandon a potential dynasty, so the possibility of another decade-long run of success does exist.

Your comparison of 2004-2007 with 1990-1993 is right on, but that doesn't mean a repeat of 1994 is inevitable. Even more than the Gillick Jays, which featured some hired guns, this club is made up of players who really want to be here. Roy Halladay could have made $9 million this year in arbitration, maybe $12 million next year, then auctioned himself for at least $75 million as a free agent. Instead, to our great delight, he made a commitment to winning in Toronto. Delgado, if he wants to remain a part of what is happening here, will have to make a similar decision.

here is the win share production I expect from Carlos: 2004 - 29WS, 2005 - 27WS, 2006 - 24 WS, 2007 - 20 WS, 2008 - 17 WS.

Using Robert's rule-of-thumb chart, that means Delgado should almost earn his enormous salary this year, and is expected to be worth approximately $13.6 MM, $11.2 MM and $8.3 MM in 2005 through 2007. Allowing for his "economic value as a long-time Jay, unoffical captain and spiritual heart of the team," the Dudek numbers aren't far off my three year, $36 million suggestion. I'm always encouraged when we agree.

In the fourth year of a new deal, when Robert is anticipating 17 Win Shares (less than $7 MM of value), it does seem unlikely that Carlos would "earn" another $12 million. To me, that's where it starts to get too risky for the Jays to guarantee the money, but it would be nice to have a team option, if his production hasn't declined.

what combinaton of players can anyone think of that can produce a .300 / .400 / .600 line

Rich, it's not necessary for someone to duplicate Delgado's line. You only need to add the difference between Carlos and his successor. This is one of those times that Win Shares can be helpful. When your 30 WS superstar moves on, and a 20 WS player takes his place, you need a 10 WS improvement elsewhere to remain the same. That could be achieved with a slight upgrade in three other positions, or one significant upgrade. If Carlos leaves, and Phelps becomes the new 1B, the most logical places to make up the difference are shortstop and the corner OF spots. Many combinations of players could help the team maintain its productivity, without going over budget. Ideally, the difference between Reed Johnson in 2004 and Alexis Rios in 2005 will do the trick all by itself.

It would be even better if Carlos wants to stick around, and the team takes a big step forward in 2005 by replacing Sparky with Lexi (and this year's fourth OF with Sparky). But Delgado isn't irreplaceable, and they can make the postseason without him in 2005 and beyond. Whether he stays or goes, the next few years will be a lot of fun.
_Shane - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 12:12 AM EST (#15366) #
Why necessarily do you feel you have to offer Delgado the same years and the same dollars you feel he'd be offered in free-agency by someone else? For far smaller amounts Batista, Hentgen and maybe Adams - I can't remember - just signed with Toronto when they could have received more elsewhere.

It's ten months before Delgado can even enter the marketplace, which is nothing but a positive from the clubs point of view. These posts that have this tone where the club has to fall all over itself for the player seem to ignore the fact that the player may want to be here as much as, or more, than the club wishes for him. It's a two way street, so you don't need to emasculate yourself financially or otherwise when that approach may not be wise or necessary. Last all-star break you could tell Halladay would be signing a long term deal before long just by the things he said about the org.

We all know Ricciardi's aggresive, he's classy, and he's a pragmatist. So when he's already talking about being "creative", I doubt he's talking about handing Carlos one of Jim Thome's contracts with the name crossed out. Delgado's a wonderful man, he's been a superb Blue Jay and if he wants to earn the money a player of his caliber can earn, then he may have to go elsewhere to earn it. But who's to say he won't do whatever he can to stay here with the only team he's ever known, in a city that loves him, and continue to play for a team that needs him just as much as he needs it. He never wanted to go anywhere (trade) when the team clearly couldn't sniff the playoffs, so why would he now want to leave just as it's ready to really compete?
_Michael - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 06:05 AM EST (#15367) #
I agree that it isn't a done deal that Carlos doesn't stay on with the Jays. It is hard to tell what media spin is true, but according to media spin Carlos likes Toronto the city and likes playing for the Blue Jays. Toronto should be a good team on the field so the motivation to play for a winning team shouldn't drive him elsewhere. So a deal that is $40 mil over 3 years or $50 mil over 4 years might be a possibility.

I'd add though that contrary to many, if the Jays don't sign an extension with Delgado I *would* offer him arbitration. I'd want the compensation picks if he signs elsewhere and I don't think it is the end of the world if he accepts arbitration because then he gets a 1-year deal in the 14-17 million range. And that deal is at most 2-5 million too high and only for 1-year, and 1-year doesn't break the bank. It is the 4-th and 5-th years of long term contracts that end up really costing a team.
_A - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 06:24 AM EST (#15368) #
Carlos likes Toronto the city and likes playing for the Blue Jays
Maybe I've totally bought into the image but I'm of the impression this is an aspect of life Delgado places great importance on...This is a guy who, from all accounts, enjoys nothing more than to ride his bike to work -- he does it during the regular season and he does it during Spring Training. How many other cities in North America have an atmosphere where a bonafide superstar can ride his bike to work? How many of those cities are first class organizations where it's just fun to play? How about a club with better spring training facilities? Would you want to be displayed with the rest of the Braves at Disneyland? Probably not. It's even unlikely you'd have fun at Legend's Field, which is roped off worse than most Major League ballparks.
_A - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 06:42 AM EST (#15369) #
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1074813009086&call_pageid=968867503640&col=970081593064
I'm undecided on which portion of the article struck me as more upsetting, and I think it might be the piece I've pasted below (COMN for the entire article). On the upside, Griffin does cop to Riccardi being a better financial manager than Ash but in the end tilts the story by making the worst conclusion possible: Riccardi is worth only one win more than Ash.

Certainly Ricciardi's handling of a roster within the guidelines of a budget is more effective than the free-spending, injury cursed ways of his predecessor, Ash. But the fact is that in J.P.'s first two years (2002-03), the Jays won 164 games.

Surprisingly, in Ash's final two campaigns, forever ridiculed by the three-headed Rogers' media monster, the Jays won 163 games. That's an awful lot of fawning over one's self for one extra victory in 324 games.


Almost as upsetting is Griffin's continual warning of the wool being pulled over my eyes. I know what I see and even like what I see (after all, this isn't a mirror :-p). Griffin's warning comes as he tries to pre-emptively spin the supposed inevitable spin the Blue Jays will allegedly use to make Delgado the "villan" when he walks for more money in another market (yes, the arguement is just as convoluted yet stupidly simplistic as that sentence). Griffin cites Escobar's experience with management as proof of this inferred trend. I'll leave this comment on that note because that comparison is as rediculous as Griffin's thesis.
Pepper Moffatt - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 08:54 AM EST (#15370) #
http://economics.about.com
Thanks for the link, Mr. A. I've created a new thread where the Griffin article is being discussed.

Cheers,

Mike
_Geoff - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 11:52 AM EST (#15371) #
Realistically, I don't think any Delgado contract will go over 3 years (i.e. past 2007) or more than 12.75 million (the amount Doc is being paid for his free agent years)

I think J.P. would do 3 years/38.25 in a heartbeat - but not sure Carlos would
_Jeff - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 01:21 PM EST (#15372) #
Ok, obviously I am in the minority here believeing that the team would be better off without Carlos. I can't argue with his contributions to the team, with sentimentality and any possible repurcussions letting Carlos go with the players and fans. This is site of Blue Jay fans and clearly you have spoken. However, I hope that the players are professional enough and the fans are educated enough (you have certainly proved this point!) to understand that letting Carlos go would only be done for the betterment of the team. Everyone on this site has acknowledged that at some point the cost of keeping Carlos would outweigh the reward. So what we are essentially debating is where that point is. There has been some tremendous statistical analysis to pin point where that value is. But it all must be taken in context. The Blue Jays are a business and if they are to ahve any success they must operate within business principles.

There are only two places where the money to sign a player will come from, one is ticket prices and the other is the operating budget. Don't you see, it is in fact our money that JP is spending. We supply all of the revenue and we are not loose with our wallets. We demand performance not promises, and if you fail we will shut our wallet much quicker than we would open it if you succeed.

If the A's, Twins, Marlins and Angels have taught us anything it is that long term financial planning and flexibility are necessary to compete when you are on a limited budget. If the Pirates, Rangers, Orioles and Mets have taught us anything it is that no matter the past contribution of player, committing too much long term money can bury you in last place for the long term.

Signing Halladay, Wells and Hinske to long term deals make sense because they are talented, only going to get better, low risk, relatively cheap and have long careers ahead of them. Just as siging Rios, Hudson, Phelps or Lilly if they have quality campaigns. While Delgado is arguably more talented than the others, unfortunately he is not any of other things. Would this team be better with Delgado, of course it would. Can we afford to sign Carlos, I think the arguments above state that yes we can. But those aren't be the only considerations. We have a future to plan for, we must appopriate our resources wisely, so many dollars for stars, so many for role players and so much set aside to sign the next Wells, Hinske and Halladay or to cover-up mistakes. I just can't understand why would literally lock ourselves up for the next three years when we have so much hope for the franchise.
Mike Green - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 01:50 PM EST (#15373) #
http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hallaro01.shtml
Signing Halladay even though he is younger involves about the same risk as signing Delgado. Halladay's top 6 comparables (COMN) are Freddy Garcia, Kevin Millwood, Schoolboy Rowe, Andy Pettitte, Ben McDonald and Jack McDowell, and they are much closer comparables than Delgado's list. None really improved significantly after age 26, and most had significant problems in ensuing years, albeit that they were all fine pitchers. The objective risk in signing a 26 year old pitcher, even a great one, to a four year contract is about equivalent to that of signing a 31 year old first baseman to the same contract.

I like the Halladay signing very much, and I think that he will outperform his comparables to a significant degree. But, there should be no illusions that this is a low risk signing. The Halladay contract is a moderate risk signing (unlike the Wells and Hinske signings which were low risk because of the modest amount at stake and the fact that they were young position players), in the same way that a Delgado signing would be.
_Jeff - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 02:12 PM EST (#15374) #
Mea Culpa.
_Johnny Mack - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 02:26 PM EST (#15375) #
I wish had something to add to this discussion. But I don't. You guys humble me -- there's a reason I save the Da Box for the last of my first run of baseball surfing each day; it's the same reason I eat my steak last, savour the last few chapters of a good book, and open presents as slowly as I possibly can.
Pistol - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 03:19 PM EST (#15376) #
Does anyone know the breakdown of revenues for the Jays? What’s the money that MLB pools out (TV contracts, etc), what’s from local TV & radio, what’s from tickets, etc..

Does anyone know the marginal profit the Jays gain from an additional ticket sale?
_John Neary - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 03:51 PM EST (#15377) #
Mike Green,

I'm going to have to quibble with your comparison list for Halladay.

Pitcher Age 24 ERA+ Age 25 ERA+ Age 26 ERA+
-------- ----------- ----------- -----------
Garcia 117 138 96
Millwood 162 100 102
Rowe 128 114 109
Pettitte 131 154 105
McDonald 95 130 123
McDowell 100 117 122
-------- --- --- ---
Average 124 126 110
-------- --- --- ---
Halladay 150 152 145

Halladay has been a significantly better pitcher over the last three years than any of those guys was in his age 24-26 seasons, and he blows them all away in K/BB ratio. (All of these pitchers except Rowe pitched in a high-strikeout era, so the comparison is valid.)

BR's comparison system has enough problems to begin with, but any projection system that looks at career stats is going to undervalue Halladay. His WERAEAPTALAMIAH (Worst ERA Ever Among Pitchers Throwing At Least As Many Innings As Him) performance in 2000 boosts his career ERA by a full 60 points. I don't think that Halladay's pre-2001 record has any predictive value whatsoever at this point.

Cheers,

John
Mike Green - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 04:09 PM EST (#15378) #
I agree John that Halladay is significantly better than his BR comps, although in the key K/IP category he's pretty comparable. Who would your comps be?

I thought of Maddux, Seaver, but these really are no better than the BR comps.
Mike Green - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 04:29 PM EST (#15379) #
John, the best comps I could find were Pettitte, Appier, Mussina and Rijo. The average performance of those four at age 24-26 would be pretty comparable to Roy's. By age 30, two of the four (Appier and Rijo) were not the same pitcher. Even Mussina's average ERA+ from age 22-26 was 141.8 suffered from 27-30 (his ERA+ fell to a still good 126.2)
Mike Green - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 04:31 PM EST (#15380) #
Oops, editing problem on the last sentence there. Mussina's average ERA+ fell from an average 141.8 between ages 22-26 to an average of 126.2 between ages 27-30.
_John Northey - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 05:23 PM EST (#15381) #
Someone asked about revenues for the Jays. I think it depends on what they want to list as profit/loss 8)

All figures US. Shared revenues were at $24.5 million per team a couple of years ago according to MLB. The Jays sold around 1.8 million tickets last season at an average of, lets say, $10 each (remember all the expensive lower deck seats sold to corporations) thus another $18 million. TV revenues were $10 million at one time, and listed as around $100k per game earlier this year thus lets guess 120 aired which would equal $12 million. So we have $52.5 million in revenues. The Jays claimed a loss of $30 million for last year according to some paper (I forget which one). So their non-player costs must be around $25-30 million.

What is interesting is they claimed non-player costs of around $10 million before Bud took over in '92. I have the figures at home (at work now) but the non-MLB player costs have shot all over the place according to published reports, including ones from MLB. Wonder where it goes?
_John Neary - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 05:42 PM EST (#15382) #
Mike,

I admit to sloth in this case, but I didn't have a better comparison group at hand. Your second group is pretty good, although Halladay is still significantly better than the mean of the other four:


24 25 26 27 28 29 30
Pitcher ERA+ IP ERA+ IP ERA+ IP ERA+ IP ERA+ IP ERA+ IP ERA+ IP
Pettitte 131 221 154 240 105 216 95 192 116 205 112 201 134 135
Appier 165 208 178 239 130 155 125 201 135 211 139 236 63 15
Mussina 99 168 163 176 149 222 102 243 137 225 129 206 138 203
Rijo 127 111 146 197 151 204 141 211 163 257 134 172 98 69

Average 133 177 161 213 134 199 116 212 139 225 129 204 128 106

Halladay 150 105 152 239 145 266


Based on what those four pitchers did in their age 27-30 seasons and correcting for Halladay's superior performance in his age 24-26 seasons, I'd project him for a an average of 225 IP and a 130-135 ERA+ over the next four years. I think that's worth $10.5 M per year. By the way, none of your four guys really flamed out -- Appier and Rijo were good enough in their first three years to compensate for the fourth.

Here's a couple more matches:


Pitcher ERA+ IP ERA+ IP ERA+ IP
Clemens 154 282 141 264 132 253
Hershiser 107 8 132 190 172 240
Stieb 138 288 142 278 145 267


Those guys were quite good in the next four years.

I'm not sure where I'm trying to go with this. I certainly don't think you're trying to come up with unfavourable comps, but I think if we want to get real predictive value here we need to be systematic about it, and consider things like K/BB as well as ERA and IP. (Halladay trounces practically everyone in K/BB.)

This has been a fun discussion.

John
Mike Green - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 06:30 PM EST (#15383) #
John, thanks for the chart. I've got to figure out how to format these correctly on the web. Hershiser is a good comp; Stieb's not bad. Roger is not so good because of his much higher K rate.

Subjectively, I feel that Halladay is just as likely to pull a Maddux and be much better than he has been to date, mostly by cutting his HRA rate. I like the contract very much.

There has been a lot of discussion in this thread about the risk that Carlos will not be great when he's 35. My point was that there is roughly the same risk that Roy will not be great when he's 30. As it happens, I like both gambles.

It is important to understand also that as great as Roy has been the last 2 and 1/2 years, Carlos has been more valuable objectively. So even if he declines a little quicker, he will still be about as valuable in 4 years. There is really not much difference in value between a 130 ERA+, 225IP season and the numbers that Robert projects for Carlos at age 35. Roy Halladay had 23 WS last year (Carlos 32). Mussina and Zito had 129 ERA+ with roughly 225 innings and had 19 and 18 WS. Robert projects 17 WS for Carlos at age 35.
_John Neary - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 10:20 PM EST (#15384) #
Mike,

As usual, no real disagreement.

Regarding formatting, I usually use

[pre][big]
text
[/pre][/big]

with angle brackets instead of square ones, and just type the table out by hand in between the [pre] and [/pre] tags. You get a proportional font and manual control of the spacing.

e.g.

[pre][big]
Pitcher ERA+ IP ERA+ IP ERA+ IP
Clemens 154 282 141 264 132 253
Hershiser 107 8 132 190 172 240
Stieb 138 288 142 278 145 267
[/pre][/big]

gives


Pitcher ERA+ IP ERA+ IP ERA+ IP
Clemens 154 282 141 264 132 253
Hershiser 107 8 132 190 172 240
Stieb 138 288 142 278 145 267
_John Neary - Friday, January 23 2004 @ 11:38 PM EST (#15385) #
Well, it looks better if I write the raw HTML as


[pre][big]
Pitcher ERA+ IP ERA+ IP ERA+ IP
Clemens 154 282 141 264 132 253
Hershiser 107 8 132 190 172 240
Stieb 138 288 142 278 145 267
[/pre][/big]


That's how it looks in the "Comments" box as you type it.

Incidentally, I'll admit defeat on Clemens. Eyeballing it, I thought his strikeout rate was about the same amount greater than Halladay's as Halladay's was greater than Mussina's, but I was wrong. Clemens had 0.97 K/IP in those three years; Doc had 0.77; Moose had 0.67.

I would still argue that Clemens is worth including on the basis of being the only guy in the group whose K/BB (3.26) is even comparable to Halladay's (3.93). I know I keep harping on it, but that stat is just sick. I can't think of a single starting pitcher in the last 20 years who beat that figure in his age 24-26 seasons. Pedro Martinez was close at 3.75; of course, he had a lot more K's and walks than Halladay, and I won't go as far as listing him as a comp.
_perlhack - Saturday, January 24 2004 @ 10:45 AM EST (#15386) #
John Neary, FYI:

Javier Vazquez:

YearAgeK/BB
2001244.73
2002253.65
2003264.23
Total-4.31


BTW: the comment-posting script seems to insert a bunch of [br] tags after each table entry, so there may be a bunch of whitespace in my comment. Can someone edit those out?
_perlhack - Saturday, January 24 2004 @ 10:54 AM EST (#15387) #
As an aside, if you're going to insert style elements into your post, do it like this:

[pre][big]...[/big][/pre]

Do not do this:

[pre][big]...[/pre][/big]

That is, work your way out of each tag in reverse order to keep the markup clean and well-formed.

Just a nit-pick...
_Wildrose - Saturday, January 24 2004 @ 12:43 PM EST (#15388) #
Bob Elliott has entered the Delgado discussion. Not much substance, but a very interesting trade rumour put out there regarding Soriano. Now Baviasi isn't that foolish is he?

Regarding Halladay, which pitcher's next four years in all of MLB baseball would you like to have?(I realize this is somewhat a mugs game given the injury factor ) Halladay, Prior, Beckett, Gagne? I'd have to think our guy would be in the mix.
_Donkit R.K. - Saturday, January 24 2004 @ 04:18 PM EST (#15389) #
Mark Prior. He'll be comparable to any veterans this year, but by year 3 (possibly even this year or next) he should be truly awe-inspiring.
_dp - Saturday, January 24 2004 @ 04:58 PM EST (#15390) #
Just curious: who would catch if Cash and Werth were traded? If I were the Jays, I'd sweeten the pot a little and throw in a minor league arm. Soriano's amazing.
_Donkit R.K. - Saturday, January 24 2004 @ 06:06 PM EST (#15391) #
Cash, Werth and Perkins/League... Maybe the F-Cat instead of Werth and thrust Gross into the lineup. The F-Cat might be just the proven veteran to rook Bavasi.

BTW - I don't actually believe Soriano will/could come to T-O. Bavasi can't be that stupid!

BTW - What does eveyrone think of this Soriano as a closer thing? Isn't it a terrible waste?
_Donkit R.K. - Saturday, January 24 2004 @ 06:11 PM EST (#15392) #
I'll put that where it's more appropriate, it seems.
_Michael - Saturday, January 24 2004 @ 07:54 PM EST (#15393) #
I like the trade for Soriano. I think you'd rather have Prior just because of the contract (he's young and cheap). But I'd rather have Halladay's pitching than any of your list (except Prior).
Mike Green - Monday, January 26 2004 @ 10:12 AM EST (#15394) #
John Neary, I'd suggest the following guidelines for a pitching comp (age 28 or less). Let's say we're dealing with a 26 year old like Halladay. Use a composite of 1.5 X age 26 record plus 1 X age 25 record plus .5 X age 24 record divided by three. Essentially a yearly figure over the previous 3 years weighted toward the more recent year. For older pitchers, I think you'd want to use the career line.

A comparable will have a composite between .85 and 1.15 times the pitcher in question in the following categories: IP, ERA+, HRA rate, K rate, BB rate.

Finding a reasonable comp by these standards for Halladay is really tough. His composite BB rate of .193 requires a comparable to have a BB rate between .174 and .212 (i.e less than two walks per game). Maddux is really closest among recent pitchers, but it took him until age 27 to get there. Even if you loosen the requirements for BB rate to a .8 to 1.2 range, it's still hard to find anyone. Juan Marichal looks like he meets all of the criteria without any loosening. Fergie Jenkins and Mike Mussina might meet the criteria with loosening.

Are the comparable requirements too tough?
_perlhack - Monday, January 26 2004 @ 11:08 AM EST (#15395) #
Mike Green:

if you're trying to find pitchers comparable to Halladay, wouldn't you want the criteria to be lax enough to find a few players? You could then base your analysis with consideration to that laxness.

Also, I think your choice of weighting by years is much too favourable to Roy. I wouldn't discount the age 24 season so much, and I wouldn't weigh the age 26 so highly either.

Should we consider BB-IBB instead? (I'm not sure how much of a difference this would make, since good pitchers are less likely to intentionally walk a hitter.)

Vazquez meets most of the criteria you define (the exception is HRA, he's very close on BB). What's interesting is the pattern in his stats (especially hits); what's indicative of his true level, 2000/2002 or 2001/2003? Does anyone have the relevant DIPS data?

It'll be interesting to see how some of the young guns compare to Halladay in a few years; I'm thinking of Prior, Oswalt, Webb, Santana etc.
Mike Green - Monday, January 26 2004 @ 12:46 PM EST (#15396) #
Perlback, I checked Vazquez just for fun before I had posted the above. His K rate composite is much higher than Roy's. Clemens is a better comp for Vazquez than Roy. Anyways, seeing as Vazquez is 26 himself, he doesn't help too much for projection purposes.

I don't quite understand what you mean about Halladay's age 24 season. It is proportionally fairly similar to age 25 and 26, except that he pitched 105 innings. Actually, his age 24 season brings down the composite innings total, and seeing as he pitched less than half a season in the majors, his composite of 200 innings is way too low.

Roy's composite ERA+ is 148. The boundaries of .85/1.15 will permit a comp to have an ERA+ of 126. Any lower than that and you get pitchers who are significantly different (see post 138257)
_perlhack - Monday, January 26 2004 @ 02:11 PM EST (#15397) #
Clemens is a better comp for Vazquez than Roy.

I agree with that.

Anyways, seeing as Vazquez is 26 himself, he doesn't help too much for projection purposes.

Agreed. I somehow convinced myself I was in another thread (about compensation comparables).

As far as Halladay's age 24 season is concerned, I wasn't implying that his ratios weren't similar; it was indeed an issue of IP. I do agree with you that an equally-weighted IP composite is not indicative of Roy's true abilities, though. I was trying to suggest that perhaps a 1.25-1.00-0.75 weighting (or something with narrower weights than you suggested) might be more appropriate.

Another suggestion is to use different boundary conditions for the various stats. I agree that going below 126 for ERA+ won't produce good comparables. But maybe the BB rate can have an upper boundary of 1.25 or so. (A bit of statistical kludging, I know...)

Whatever the case, Halladay sure is in select company!
_John Neary - Monday, January 26 2004 @ 02:15 PM EST (#15398) #
Mike,

I don't have a database that would allow me to identify players matching the sort of criteria you propose, so this is a fairly academic exercise.

As I said before, I don't think Halladay's pre-2001 stats have any predictive value at all. I don't know if it helps to consider his 2001 numbers either -- as you point out, his innings pitched are low simply because he was only in the majors for half of the season. If you average his numbers over the last three years (with or without weights), he'll come out looking (a) less like a workhorse, and (b) less like a guy who was potentially overworked than he should. (Personally, I don't think Halladay has been overworked, since he's so economical with pitches, but I don't think the analysis is helped by making him look like a 200 IP guy when he's actually a 240-250 IP guy.)

The other point I have to make is that I think for the analysis to really be valid you have to use league-normalized stats. Halladay has actually been much more of a workhorse than Marichal was. He's led the league in IP two years running, and his 266 IP last year were the most by an AL pitcher since 1991. By contrast, Marichal led in 1963 but wasn't in the top five in 1964. Similarly, walk, HR, and K rates need to be normalized to league average if you really want to find comparable pitchers.

Finally, I'd let age float a bit too. I'd be happy to allow age 25-27 or 23-25 matches if the other numbers are good. I believe that PECOTA works this way; just like any other variable, age doesn't have to be perfectly matched, but it plays into the weighting given to each comp. I'd probably loosen your requirements a bit and weigh the comps by the quality of the match (although I haven't thought through the details of how I'd do that).

I realize that all of this makes the analysis even harder, but since I'm not about to do it anyway, it doesn't really add any work ;)

Perlhack: thanks for pointing out Vazquez's numbers. I hadn't considered him because we don't have his age 27+ seasons yet, as Mike points out; if we had them, I'd consider him one of the better comps. And sorry about the HTML stuff -- I wasn't trying to give style advice per se, just a quick and dirty method of making a table, but thanks for the correction.

John
Mike Green - Monday, January 26 2004 @ 03:07 PM EST (#15399) #
John, I agree on all fronts. I guess if we could all find some money for Baseball Reference, they might be able to generate more of the normalized information. I know I couldn't manage this.
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